The Future of Fiction Editing with Sophie Playle

Today I'm chatting with Sophie Playle, a fiction editor and course creator highly regarded in the editorial world for her fiction developmental editing and line/copyediting courses.

We discuss her journey in editing and how the world has changed since she started in the early 2010s. We also chat about her courses, how motherhood has changed her perspective, and the impact of AI on the publishing industry.

While we can't guess what the future will hold, we do have some thoughts on how editors will feature in it, so listen in for these 2026 takes on a rapidly changing field! 

Learn more about Liminal Pages at www.liminalpages.com

You can also sign up for the courses here (affiliate link)!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hello and welcome folks to The Freelancer. This podcast discusses all things publishing through a social justice lens. My name is Andy Hodges, and I'm a developmental editor and writer. I consult for cultural anthropologists through the narrative craft, and I work with queer and speculative fiction authors through my business second world editorial. Make sure you subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. And sign up for my monthly newsletter in the show notes if you want more regular updates. And today I have a very special guest. It's Sophie Playle, who everybody in the CIEP, that's the Chartered Institute of Editing and Proofreaders, definitely knows. So hey there.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Hi, thank you so much for having me. I really love your podcast. I just love how insightful you are. So yeah, really, really pleased to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Cool. And I'm really excited to have you here as well. Your courses are legendary. So for anybody who doesn't know, Sophie Playle's been working in the um courses space. There's developmental editing courses for fiction, uh, there's line and copy editing courses for fiction. And I really like how you split your courses up as well into that you have the theory and the practice separately, which is really useful. So I'm just a big fan of your courses and really excited to have you here.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Oh, thank you. That's so nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

So let's start there. So I've said it already. You, along with Louise Harnby, have this kind of legendary status in the CIEP. And you've been working in the fiction developmental editing freelance space for a really long time. When did you start, first of all?

SPEAKER_03 1:45

I think it was about 2011, 2012. So yeah, first of all, it feels really funny when people say that I'm kind of legendary in this in the in the space, um, especially um using my name alongside Louise, because she really is like, you know, a top-tier legendary. And it was actually Louise's blog that helped me get started. She's been blogging for a really long time, longer than me. Um, and it was through her resources and her mention of the CIEP, which was back then was the SFEP, the Society for Editors and Proofreaders. Um, that's where I learned about that. So I wouldn't have I wouldn't have found that without Louise. And yes, um, got started in sort of 2011, 2012. Originally before that, I was working for a small wildlife publisher. Cool. That was like my first job in publishing. Then I moved to um Pearson Education, which is like this giant educational textbook publisher. And it was when I was there that I learned about freelance copy editing. So I I quickly realized while I was working in for the publisher that I wasn't going to get very hands-on with the books. It was all very managerial, admin, that kind of thing. And also I realized that it would be really hard to sidestep into fiction, which is where I really wanted to be. And also, if I wanted to work for a publishing house, I would probably have to move or commute to London, which is where most of them are. And I wasn't really prepared to do that. So I thought, well, I'll retrain. I retrained as a copy editor. And I actually got my first clients a bit of a unusual strategy, not one that I consciously thought about, to be honest. But while I was working at Pearson, I also launched my own literary magazine.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

And I sort of ran that for a year or so. And I ended up putting an ad in my own magazine for my editing services, and I got my first clients through that.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Oh, cool. What was the magazine called? If you're willing to share.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

It was called Inkspill magazine. And it was, I had an iPad version and a print version. It didn't have a huge number of readers, but it was a really fun little project. And yeah, that's that's how I got some of my first clients. And then from there, once I joined the CIEP and got chatting to people, people started referring projects to me. And that's how kind of how the ball got rolling, as it were.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

And when did you get started? How did you come up with the idea for your courses and develop those?

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Yeah, uh I studied creative writing at university, and I I thought that I could use what I knew about writing to create courses to sell to writers initially, because I thought that there'd be a good crossover between editing clients and people learning to write and wanting more information about creative writing. My first course was aimed at writers, um, and it didn't really sell. I think there was just too many courses and resources and things out there for writers. And as I got more involved in the editing community, it just sort of dawned on me that, well, this is the kind of thing that people need to know to offer developmental editing and critique in. Um, so I just reframed the content so that it was teaching the concepts for editors instead of from the creative side of things. Um and that was that was the first course that I developed. And then yeah, just kind of gradually built from there.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Okay. That's really interesting, and that matches my experience as well, because I dabbled with courses a few years ago, came up with a an introductory course for writers with a friend, and it flopped. And it's very clear to me now why that would happen. There's just so many courses in the writer space in particular. But as with you, it wasn't a waste of time and energy. All of that stuff was reframed and useful later on.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

At the time as well, there weren't many courses for fiction editors specifically. There was quite a few that were to teach editing as a skill, but not a lot specifically for fiction.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Okay. Yeah. So that gets me on to the other question I really wanted to ask about that is because I started in 2019 and I'm really curious to learn more about what this whole space was like during the 2010s and how it's changed compared with more recently.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah, um, I think the things that come to mind for me is that not a lot of people were blogging back then. So because I was blogging loads, um, and Louise as well, and people, you know, like that, that's kind of what helped us get known in in the industry and probably helped help gain clients because people were finding our blog and people were getting to know us through our blogs and things like that. And now blogging is everywhere, like everybody blogs, which is which is really cool. But I think there's not as many blogs where where they kind of have that same status in a way. And then moving on from that, now that AI is in the picture, yeah, um, yeah, we're we're both grimacing. Yeah. That's also changed content marketing. Blogs need to be moving away from being um educational and informative to more opinion and experience, I think. Yeah, so there's a big change there. Um so yeah, that kind of relates to how things have changed in terms of yeah, content marketing and how people find us and how we network and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah. That everything that you've said resonates. Um, and especially the AI thing. And I like there was a time when I would put out like short informative blog posts and they'd get a lot of hits. Um, and now I just see that as a waste of time because of generative AI.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Yeah, yeah. And I think as well, when I first started, self-publishing was fairly new. Um and well not not hugely new, but I think there's more people self-publishing these days than um back then. Uh, but it was also the start of when self-publishers were realizing that they needed extra help to elevate the quality of their books. So that was when people were starting to reach out to editors and and things. So that was really good. And now again, obviously with AI in the mix, that's changed things a bit as well. I think in terms of um the kind of projects that an editor might be sent, you've you kind of have to think about whether it's actually human-written, and then you have to think about whether you as an editor want to engage with AI tools and how and the ethics of that and the practicalities of that. And I recently came across this term called AI fog, which means this idea of um uncertainty about the future because of AI. So it kind of means the future looks all foggy and difficult to so it makes it difficult to plan. And I think editors are kind of feeling that with well, what's it, what's what are things going to look like in two, five, ten years time and how how's that going to affect the decisions I make now? Yeah, it's all a bit of a a tricky place to to work from.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, it like people have compared it to the start of the pandemic. This this Pandora's box has opened and we don't know what exactly what's going to happen. We can kind of guess, but it nothing is particularly clear. And I really like that idea of AI fog. I came across that too, and the inability to plan, and especially for Gen Z people starting out, I think it's uh can be really difficult for those people where AI is being used in a lot more of their workflows, taking some jobs and roles away. And in my in my own work, the word that I've I've I use for AI is a kind of it introduces a veil between me and the writer if they're if they're using it, and especially if they're not disclosing the use. And uh that puts me in a situation where I don't know where w what they know, what writing craft techniques they've perfected and developed or not. Or because what I'm see if what I'm seeing is a mixture of artificial and human, then I don't know if some of those techniques have just been pulled from the web and so on. So it when you're teaching writing craft, it puts you in a dip difficult position if you're having to engage with that or choosing to engage, because some editors are definitely choosing to work on AI-assisted text.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

Yeah, exactly. All of that, yeah. All of that makes a lot of sense and it's a real challenge for editors these days. Um, but I do I do think the future's still hopeful. I think that there'll always be a need for human editors. I just think this industry is so creative that, first of all, an AI can't ever have that emotional reaction to a piece of work. And what's the point in a novel being in existence if it doesn't have an emotional response? You know, it's all about connection. And an AI editor what's the point of of of an AI editor if it can't if it can't give that crucial response? And as well as that, I think people will want to work with humans. It's it's a human-to-human kind of interaction, a book from one one mind to another.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, I think writing and editing are both incredibly relational.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

That's what makes them human. So if you take away the human relationships, then I don't think you really have a novel. Novels are about human relationships.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

So Yeah. And I think AI just misses so much of the creative creative nuance of fiction writing. It will just try to over-correct and also flatten flatten voice. These are the things that people always say in about AI, you know, and I don't know if it will ever overcome those challenges fully.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Yeah, I feel the same. Like I've seen some AI-assisted texts, and I've seen these kind of mixed metaphors, hollow emotional beats, flattened voice. So yeah, I I don't know what'll happen with that. But I think that even if the tools do improve and they become indistinguishable, I think there'll still be a really big need and desire for human written texts. And I'm gonna roll out an example here, but in the 1990s, there were international chess competitions and it reached a point where the AI computer could beat the world champion at chess. People didn't stop playing chess. Yeah, people carried on playing other humans at chess, even though that had completely changed like the horizon of possibility or whatever you want to call it. Yeah. I I really think that even if it becomes indistinguishable, it's not gonna change things. People still want like human connection and human audience.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah, I agree. I feel the same way.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yeah. Okay, on to the next question now. What is your favorite kind of editing and why?

SPEAKER_03 13:18

So I actually really like both developmental editing and copy editing. And I've always liked to have a variation um so that I can engage my brain in different ways. If I just did one, I kind of get a bit bored just doing the one thing personally. Um obviously everybody works differently. So I would always have a developmental edit on the go and a copy edit, and then I can kind of switch my brain between them as and when I need to, and that keeps me engaged. But I've never done proofreading because just the tiny corrections and the level of scrutiny that you need for proofreading doesn't quite mesh with how my brain works. I really like to get involved and help shape things. So I love it when an author hires me for a developmental edit or a critique, and I can give them feedback that helps them shape the whole book and the whole story and the techniques and things like that. And then they come back to me for a line and copy edit, and I can help them shape and and improve the sentences, and so we can just go from the highest level to the more detailed, and that's just so satisfying for me.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

I can relate to that a lot. Um what I like about copy editing is that it's meditative quite often, it's kind of relaxing, whereas developmental editing can be quite tiring. It's like left brain, right brain, something like that. But I also really, really like it when you have a client who you work with for a dev edit and then they come back to you for a line edit. Because you can also see the progress, and that's that's really satisfying.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Oh, it's so nice. It's it makes me so proud of my authors that I work with when I see that they that they've made like some big loops and forward and improvements, and yeah, it just gives me the warm fuzzies.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, same. Exactly that. Cool. Okay, on to the next question. So I'm also curious to ask how has motherhood, like becoming a mother, changed your approach to your business?

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Yeah, it's a good question because it has changed my life. It's changed my life in in every single way. Um and I think I was kind of unprepared for it, um, which is silly because most people tell you that it's obviously life-changing. But in terms of my business, before I had my baby, so my daughter is coming up to three now at time of recording. And before I had her, I was editing and I was running my courses, so I was doing both. And when I got pregnant, I decided to stop editing and focus on the courses because I I knew I wasn't going to be able to deal with deadlines for authors. So that was a kind of big practical change that I just stopped editing completely, focused on the courses. And I assumed that once uh my daughter was a bit older, maybe she was in some childcare, that I would pick up the editing again. Now that hasn't happened yet, and it's because I've just got so much less time than I thought I would, even at this point. Um because she isn't in like a she isn't in l daycare all the time. And when we still got half-turned, bank holidays, summer holidays. So it's not it becomes difficult to fit projects around that and building momentum and building the schedule. And she's always ill, bringing home illnesses, so that's that's having an impact. And then I just have so much less energy than I did before because my sleep is still impacted. You know, she likes to get up at 6 a.m. I do not like to get up at 6 a.m. And yeah, I just don't have the energy or the brain power to go back to editing all the time yet, but I am planning to at some point. But yeah, in terms of how it's changed my approach to my business, I I also realised how important my business and working is to my identity. So it's it can be very all-consuming being a parent to a young child, and um I think I realized how important it is to my mental health that I carve out time to work because I need to engage my brain in that way. I I need to feel like I have other parts of my identity other than mother, and as well as that. And I've struggled I've struggled with that in a way because it means taking time away from being one-on-one with my daughter so that I've got time to work in my business. But at the same time, it makes me a better person, a better mother, and I think it's a a good role model for her to honour your personal needs and um not let something consume you, living a balanced life, advocating for yourself and your own needs. Um and you know, it's not it's it it's not detrimental to her. It's actually it works for both of us, you know. Yeah, got a good better balance there now, and uh I think we're all better for it.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

That's really cool. And I I think it's really smart as well with the courses how that was able to fill in the gap, because every every parent I know says that those first five years can be so intense and things can things generally ease off a little bit when the children are at school. But that Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

And I think as well, everyone is different. So there are some people who come to editing when they have a child because of the flexibility they can work it around childcare and and things like that. But I just kind of knew that it wasn't quite going to work for me. But some people find that the freelance editing plus having a own child actually really works. And I've known some editors who've said things like, when they had their newborn, they would have them in a sling on their chest while they're at their laptop editing a manuscript and it worked for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah, no, I've definitely noticed that in the freelance space as well. Lots of people come to roles like editing and adjacent stuff like translation and copywriting because of the flexibility it offers around childcare. And that was actually also something that was on my mind as well, because a few years ago I was considering adoption, and this was the kind of career that would really mesh well with that as well. Um, being able to scale up or down my hours. So I love I love that flexibility about this the freelance space.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Oh, it's one of the best things about it. It really is.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah. Okay. So next question is what are your thoughts specifically on the self-publishing space and how it's changed over the past five years? And I guess I'm really thinking here of a little bit about the impact of AI, but anything else as well.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

So Yeah, I think in general, I love that self-publishing makes publishing more accessible. You know, anyone can do it and anyone can have a crack at it and put their work out there. And I just think that's really wonderful. Um, but it does mean there are lots of poor quality books out there as well. Um and in a way, I suppose that doesn't really matter. But the thing that makes me really sad is when a good quality book gets overlooked and doesn't get traction and doesn't make sales. I find that that's yeah, it's really disappointing and really sad because self-publishing is more like to to to get sales as a self-publisher, you need more than a good quality book. You need you need that. But you also need, you know, sales and marketing strategy. And, you know, there's all all sorts of pieces to the puzzle, book design, which is all part of it, and building up a network, building, you know, things like that. But I've also noticed recent in recent years to kind of combat the digital noise of self-publishing, including, I suppose, all this AI stuff that's coming out and just landing on Amazon and things like that. Um, a lot of self-publishing authors are gravitating towards publishing beautiful physical copies of their books.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Yeah, and building more connection with their audiences and using direct sales instead of markets like Amazon. And uh I just think that's really wonderful and really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah, I've noticed that not just in self publishing, but in all publishing, this emphasis on really nice books and creating community, like all these. book clubs and things like that. The real book clubs, not not those emails that everybody gets. So what what are your thoughts also on how traditional publishing, the so-called big five, is changing?

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Yeah, I'm not as sure about my thoughts on this, to be honest. I don't have a lot of direct experience working with big five publishers. I've always gravitated towards working directly with authors, especially because I like to to get involved earlier in the process with the big picture stuff. And I've also worked with small press publishers which I just find a you know a lovely a lovely space to work in because a lot of small press publishers are super passionate about what they do. And I just find that the tight deadlines and the fast pace of big five publishers just never really worked for me. I doubt it'll work for me now with with uh my parenting duties and things like that. And also they're sort of notorious for paying quite low rates. So I've never really tried to get involved in it. Although there are benefits as well. You have to do less marketing once you've got involved with a big publisher because they'll just keep giving you work if you're if you're good enough. And um yeah maybe if you find an imprint where you really enjoy the the books you know you're always going to be entertained while you're editing and things like that. Yeah so I don't know those are just kind of my general thoughts on big five publishers. I am wondering how they're going to respond to the problems coming from AI because self-publish uh sorry not self-publishing because traditional publishing moves so slowly that's that's another aspect to it. So there's not a lot I think that that's already in their policies to do with anything to do with AI whether that's the submissions they get or how they want to use it in their workflows and um I know they're starting to have conversations about it and I know there are some general policies but yeah it's it's it's something that I think they're still working on and I'd be interested to see how that evolves.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah I feel the same. I feel like yeah these big publishers move really slow. They're a lot more cautious. They don't take risks that small publishers or self-publishing authors can take. I've heard there's they're starting to use generative AI tools for doing the so-called like grunt work, but they're not using it. And at least this is my experience um they're not using it in editing workflows yet. There are some little jobs that I think AI would be really useful for helping with like I really hate when you have to look up every word like to see if it's joined up in the dictionary or not. Which you have to do when you're copy editing for publishers.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Because I I just I find it really boring and that is definitely something that AI could just help with I think but it it hasn't yet so yeah yeah I think that is the kind of work that I would be happy for AI to do and leave all the creative decisions to the to the editor and the author. And um I what was I going to say the I think one of the biggest aspects is the copyright issue isn't it as well um how that works um because anything generated by AI isn't copyrightable. So yeah how how are publishers going to be dealing with with AI creeping into particular like manuscripts that are being submitted to them. There was that whole thing with the book Shy Girl recently did you hear about that? Yeah where it I think it was revealed that it was pretty much AI generated or heavily AI written and then it got pulled because people were just not happy and yeah it created all sorts of problems. Yeah there's a lot to deal with in this in this space at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

There's a lot and I think the issue one big issue is there's no real boundaries on what AI assisted means. Like if someone's using it just to search a manuscript for typos that's completely different to a stylistic like style edit or something like that. And there's no real way of policing it either. So it just it it feels like a mess which gets me on to the next question which is what are the main challenges you think authors and editors are facing in the current environment?

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Yeah I mean we've basically kind of been touching on it through the whole conversation haven't we which is mostly everything to do with AI.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Yeah I think authors just have to you know they're having to compete against the volume that AI can create navigating these copyright issues defending their originality if they're getting accused of using AI when they haven't that's a minefield and yeah for editors it's things like navigating inquiries because I I've been getting loads of inquiries that are clearly AI written for services that I don't even offer and that's just creating a a bit of a headache basically knowing whether a manuscript is original or you know AI assisted what does that mean? What are the implications of that? Editors have to think about how they want to engage with AI tools and whether you know whether they even should on an ethical level because there's all this pressure to fall behind in with technology. How do you how do you balance that with the complications of AI and AI tools? It's a bit more complicated than just saying oh well we had to learn when you know computers are introduced and we weren't working on hard copy anymore. It's more complicated than that. And then yeah the worry of being completely replaced um which again we've talked about but people people still worried about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Yeah so there's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah there's a lot and I've heard so many different things as well from different people. Like at Readsy I've heard that they've had an uptick in work and requests and things over the past few years. And I guess there's there will definitely be some authors who feel empowered by using AI tools. Maybe they're just having fun or they're not or they're self-publishing where you can use these tools in lots of different ways. But yeah I think in a way the tools they've created some problems. You could say they've kind of made it easier for some people to start to become a beginner writer but I don't know I'm a I'm a kind of traditionalist and I firmly believe writers need to work without using these tools to exactly they need to write they need to learn the process they need to learn the techniques.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

Yeah there's a difference between producing a novel and writing a novel exactly exactly yeah that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

And a reader we might reach a point where a reader can't see the difference but at the end of the day it's that act of creation which is what gives creative writers energy what excites them I think.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

I feel like there needs to be maybe some more specific sort of um government policies on the way that AI is going to be allowed in the publishing industry and we might end up with something like disclosure um these books are AI written or AI assisted these books are 100% human written because people might want to choose which ones they want to engage with if they want that human-to-human connection or if they are just happy to have a certain kind of story that entertains them. I just hope that I just hope that we just don't get lost in you know the AI slop kind of world and that we still get quality books. And I'm kind of I I feel kind of open to changing my mind about any of this because it's so such a huge topic. It's it's always in flux. And yeah I think it's important to discuss these things but also not get too locked down in our opinions about them because you know we're allowed to change our minds and change our mind based on what we learn and what we see and what happens. I think that's kind of an important point to make because I think some people get a bit nervous about talking about these things in case they say the wrong thing and upset people. But I think we we should cultivate you know this attitude of let's let's chat about it and let's all be forgiving and open to people changing their minds and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yeah I really like that I really really like that sentiment. And sometimes I feel nervous too because there are the there's people with very different views and attitudes. There's a few editors who are completely 100% anti any kind of use of these technologies in any domain and that's not me. I don't I don't use it in my editing at all and I have issues with stuff like the environmental effects of it etc etc but what I'm trying to say is that there's so many different approaches and perspectives and the technology is also changing at such a quick rate that let it be said this is a May 2026 conversation and who knows what it what we'll be talking about in May 2027.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Yeah and also it's to say as well that um it doesn't necessarily mean that we're all we're all right either like maybe there is one particular perspective that has got it right but you kind of have to let people get there. You have to let people figure it out and um I don't know nav navigate in things like personal ethics it's just a massive topic isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah definitely yeah and it's true of writing a book as well there's there are definitely run ways to write a book but there's so many different right ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

So okay right to finish um tell us all about your courses and especially your new ones yes thank you yeah um yeah my business is called Liminal Pages and it's built around the idea that fiction editing is its own discipline and that's not always reflected in how editorial trading is put together. So there are lots of resources that treat fiction as just another document to be corrected or if it's fiction specific it's often about one small aspect of fiction editing. So yeah my courses are specifically for editors who work with fiction or who want to and they're designed to be as comprehensive yet streamlined as possible. I've developed four core courses two for developmental editing and two for line and copy editing and the idea is that you choose the pair based on the service you want to offer or you can choose a single course based on your particular knowledge gap. They're on demand, they're self-paced so people can fit them around their lives. And yeah I've just launched my latest course which is called Coffee and Clauses the Art of Line and Copy Editing Fiction and that goes deep into the creative nuances of editing at the sentence level and really what editors get from all my courses is confidence and specificity. So it's they're designed to give people everything they need to start offering these services.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Fantastic and I can confirm I've taken the developmental editing courses and found them really cool, really useful. I like the mixture of video and text so you've got different options because I'm the kind of person that often likes to flick between those two different things. And there are arguments as well. I think that for me that's a hallmark of a a good course it's not just talking about a topic but it's giving you a perspective with some arguments and thoughts on that topic as well.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Thank you. Yeah I I must say that I haven't got videos for the line and copy editing courses yet but I'm probably going to develop them in the future. But yeah I like the idea as well of having sort of multimedia ways to interact with the material and yeah I try to put things like extra resources that people can use in their actual businesses, examples, exercises, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

And I will put links to all of those courses and all that information in the show notes. So if you're if you've made it this far on the podcast, first of all thank you for listening to the whole episode and don't forget to take a look at those show notes for all the useful links. So thanks again Sophie for coming on this episode. I really really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Thank you so much Andy it's been a real pleasure chatting to you.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yay thank you and so to everybody else everybody who's listening right now if you want to keep in touch of course sign up for the newsletter or subscribe rate review and I will see you next time. So thank you