S2E1 : Sophie Sparks - The One Who Humanise Data Through Art and Storytelling

In this special episode for Valentine's Day, I chatted with data artist Sophie Sparks about the intersection of data, art, and storytelling. They explore the importance of using pen and paper in data visualization, the human experience behind data, and how to overcome the fear of imperfection in creative expression. Sophie shares insights on the role of hand-drawn visuals in communication, the significance of process in data art, and the impact of live drawing on audience engagement. They also discuss self-quantification, the importance of data badges in fostering connections, and the upcoming projects Sophie is working on. We also have a fun lightning round of questions about data visualization practices and personal insights on the art of data. Enjoy!

Resources:

1. Connect with Sophie : https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophiesparkes/
2. Read the book : https ://data-feminism.mitpress.mit.edu/
3. Jonni Walker is here : https://www.tableau.com/de-de/blog/using-tableau-help-natural-world

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

In a world obsessed with automated insights and AI-generated dashboard, we often forget that behind every data point is a human experience. My guest today hasn't just remembered that. She sort of led the movement. She spent years at the heart of Tableau Public Team helping to turn a software tool into a global movement. And now she's also a leading voice in the data art movement. So she's teaching us all how to see the art within the analytics. For a dream date on Valentine's Day, please welcome to the show data artist storyteller and community builder Sophie Sparks. Welcome, Sophie, and thanks for joining me today for a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

It's really lovely to be chatting with you today. I think if I want to choose someone to have a date with on a Valentine's Day, I choose someone who is not only just insightful, but also really talented and a very creative storyteller. And I can't think of anyone else to have a date with on a Valentine's Day other day. So thank you. I'm just stoked as well to have you on board. So how are you doing so far?

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, I'm going well. I'm going well. Um it's already February. It's a bit the years just seem to go by faster and faster. I finished my master's um at the end of last year, 2025, and I've just applied for a PhD. I so I'll find out if I get into that, I guess, in a month or so's time. Uh so I'm doing this, I'm trying freelancing and seeing how that goes. So it's it's exciting, but it's also unstructured, which I like. Um but yeah, it's things are good, things are going well and they're different to what they have been in the past, which is invigorating.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

That's amazing. So, Sophie, I mean, let's get to the conversation. I mean, you've seen the highest level of professional pizza, puff at dashboarding at Tableau, and and you know, you've you've you've been there. And yet here you are, as I know you, advocating for the power of simple hand-drawn sketch. So, in an era where we can automate almost any chart, why is a pen and paper still the most powerful tool in a data artist's kit?

Humanizing Data: Overcoming the Fear of Imperfection

SPEAKER_01 2:46

That's a big question. I'll unpack it into two parts. So, why it's really important in helping you think, and then why it's really important in helping you communicate to other people. So the first bit, um, which many people have talked about, um, like much more important people than me, um, you know, Valentina Delafippo, um, Stephanie Posebic, uh, using a pen and paper is the it has there are no layers of um mediation. You can just get your thoughts right out there onto paper. There's no formatting, there's no spell check, there's no you you did the wrong punctuation, or you know, you're trying to connect lines up in an app and it automatically snaps them to a grid. There's none of that. Um, so there's uninterrupted thought onto page. And by putting pen to paper, you help yourself think freely. And also you are physically moving your body. There's a real mind-hand connection. Um, there's lots of studies um about this. Um, and I will have to, I'm I'm I'm gonna get everyone's names wrong, so I'm just gonna tell you about them and I I'll give you some links afterwards. Um But there's there's a great one, I uh a study where they um asked people to explain, um, give directions uh on a um tell somebody else how to get somewhere, give them directions, and they allowed them to do it using their hands like you normally would, you know, go down the street, turn left, keep on going straight. And then they asked again um for the same people to give different directions, and they said this time you have to sit on your hands. And when they were sitting on their hands, the other people, the people they were giving the directions to found it much harder to follow their directions. There's this real, we think better when we use our hands, we also communicate better when we use our hands. Um other studies have shown we need to loop ideas through different mediums. So if you're always on a computer and you're not looping these ideas through other people, other mediums like a pen and paper, then you are shuttering in how you think. Humans are inherently inefficient creatures. We don't work the same if it's if we're shut in a, I've got a really small office. If if if I didn't have windows in this office and it was just a small dark room and I was in here every day with my computer, I would not be very happy. But I can look outside and there's things going on, but my computer doesn't care that there's a nice window with stuff going on outside. It works just the same as it always does. But we're computers, and part of that is we have evolved to think in space and time because we live in a three-day, three-dimensional world that things happen in. Um, so this idea of getting your ideas down onto paper, you have a connection, you are physically moving in space, um, and there's no defaults that stop you from doing things you want to do. Um however, it's really intimidating for people to sketch. And I'm a I should I just before they started recording, I showed you a page in my notebook. My handwriting is horrendous. I don't draw well at all. Um so overcoming that hurdle and fear that get sort of drilled into you when you're young, when you all of a sudden realize that you can't draw people's noses very well, or you where do you put ears when you're drawing a stick figure? I don't know. And then people begin to say, I can't draw. Nobody says, I can't talk, or I can't write, maybe you can't write well, but everybody can jot down an email without worrying about it, and everyone can chat to somebody else without worrying about it. But we say I can't draw. So there's this stigma that gets ingrained in us when we're young. And I think it's really hard to overcome that and begin to put ideas down back on, put pick up pen and paper and get those ideas back onto paper because it really helps you think. Um, and that helps you get clear and clarity with what you're thinking. So that's the first bit of why I think it's really important to use a pen and paper when you're visualizing information, because you can sketch out, you know, chart types. It doesn't matter if they're not remotely accurate, but you aren't you aren't limited by what the tools will let you do. So you might sketch a line chart or a bar chart, but you might also sketch a modified waffle chart with strange icons instead of squares. Or maybe you sketch something that looks a bit like a connected scatter plot, but you've got footprints in there as well because you're looking at how people move and maybe around a city or something like that. Um, so there's no limit to what you can do because there are no tools or other um software limiting and saying these are the defaults, this is the best way to do it. So it helps you get these ideas unfiltered out onto paper. And when they're all out there on paper, then you can begin to go, is this realistic? How would I do this? Is this a good way to communicate this information? But you need to get all those ideas out first, generate lots and lots of ideas and recombine them before you know if you really want to create an impactful visualization, and that can be it is memorable, but it could also just be it communicates really clearly. Now, the second part of that question, and I'm this is really long. I'm sorry, this answer.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Oh, no problem, no problem.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I think is how hand-drawn can help you communicate. Now you've done your thinking, how picking up a pen and paper can help you communicate that information. Um, I really believe that data has a bad reputation for being precise. And it is not precise, it is a representation of things that are happening in the world. It is not 3D, it is not the rain falling from the sky, it is how many on average centimeters fall in February. That's great, but that's not telling me right now the living experience of having it raining out my window. But um, historically, after the Renaissance and especially during the Industrial Revolution, there was this idea that data now becomes precise and the truth. And people forget that it isn't, that there are choices being made before the data even gets into a spreadsheet. What data are we collecting, how we're collecting it, why we're collecting it, um, how we're aggregating it, and and then how we analyzing it, um, and then who, you know, how are we analyzing, how are we categorizing it, how are we grouping it, then what's what information are we then displaying and key insights are we telling other people? And I think if that's all done very clinically with spreadsheets in very precise charts, maybe occasionally with two decimal points worth of you know confidence, people stop, don't think to question is this data really a good representation of the truth? Do I believe? Do I trust how it's been um aggregated? Do we is this really the best way to group this information? They don't do it, they don't question it at all. Um, but if you draw something, and it's imprecise because it's hand-drawn, even if you're using rulers, um, you know, you're not it's it helps people remember that there's a human in the loop, a human collecting that data, maybe, a human analyzing it, a human then deciding what to show, because we can physically see that it's made by a person. Um, and I think that really helps people question the data in a good way, but also connect with it because we realize there is a human in the loop. This has been made by a person. Um, and then it feels less clinical and scary and more approachable and friendly.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Using paper and pencil help us humanize, help us use all our senses and and and interpret or look at data uh in a in a more human way. But then what do you think about the fact that people tend to be afraid to do that because if they do that, they're exposing their own flaws and and vulnerable side. I think they rather than seeing as a freedom, I don't know what where the problem lies. Maybe you could help us or um tell us why, but I feel like instead of seeing using paper and pencil as a form of freedom to to sort of go beyond the tools, they uh are afraid of the freedom and they're afraid of making mistakes. Error or or or mistake is one thing that people tend not to be comfortable with. And I think using paper and pencil sort of expose that a lot more. The world is at the moment all about uh perfection, especially with with with AI generating information for us, right? So why is it important for us to go back to to paper and pencil to humanize again the way we conceive or consume data?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yeah, so one we definitely I I use Tableau to in my practice, so I put data into Tableau a lot to analyze it and to see what's going on and to quickly see trends. But that's only part of the process. So I I think this sort of goes back to the idea of when we realize we can't draw perfectly. Um if we put ourselves out there and maybe we show our teammates an early sketch of an idea, um we're exposing ourselves to people saying, like, that's not right. You think that? And it seems much more personal because it's it's us, like it's our drawing. Um, and that's awkward and uncomfortable. And I have published then again, like I've published many Tableau dashboards because there's no spell check with like spelling mistakes in it. I am a terrible speller and I just don't see them. Um so there is also that. Um, and I've put out hand-drawn things where I've had to go back and fix them because I've had a spelling mistake or in it as well, or a mis slight misalignment. But I don't worry as much. A lot of what I do for those, I'm also creating them live. So I see it as part of the charm. I try and convince myself that's it's part of the charm of what I'm doing. Um that there are sometimes errors in it. Um, and then you just have to accept them and be like, I made a mistake there. But it's uncomfortable saying you've made a mistake, it's also uncomfortable saying this is what you do. Um, and because data visualization is covers such a wide range of things, like it is not practical at all to hand draw your KPI dashboard that updates every you know 30 seconds. But it might be realistic, realistic to include some hand-drawn sketches when you're first talking to your stakeholders about how this could be laid out, um, or either hand-drawn or maybe you're using something like Excellent, but you know, you're doing a little sketch. So there are places within I think within every workflow where you can sketch something, but it's allowing yourself to be vulnerable enough to accept that people you might make a mistake, that you are then exposing yourself as somebody who is fallible and makes mistakes, which is awkward. Um, and that your colleagues might not like what you do and say that, you know, oh, that's a bit rubbish. And you go, like, yeah, I really can't draw a bar chart. Those bars just look like lumpy hills. But we all get that it was a bar chart. So in that way, it's an effective drawing. Um I think it's it's a lot of it's a mindset shift and also remembering that an effective sketch is to help you think and to help you communicate with other people. So if and I've got two small kids, I've got a five-year-old and a three-year-old, and their drawings are adorable. Um, but you know, they you my three-year-old in particular does a circle with two little dots in it and two lines sticking out the side and a straight line somewhere, and he's like, This is a person. I'm like, Yeah, I can see it's a person. Yeah, I can see it's a person. He did one yesterday with two more sticks and said it's an ant. And I'm like, it's an ant with four legs. It is an ant. You know, so we all understood, we we understood that common language. Um but that I guess naivety or whatever, that you know, accepting that people understand what we're doing gets knocked out of you very quickly. And then it is embarrassing when you can't draw straight axes and you're trying to draw a line chart. Just show people that this is this bit of dashboard, we're going to do a line chart and it's going to be split this way. Um, but it's much quicker to do that talking to somebody, sketching on a piece of paper where you can both point to things, and then you'll probably get a much better outcome for the client if that's where you're um employing doing hand-drawn material. But yeah, I think most of it's mindset mindset shifts and blockers, and just allowing yourself to be human who makes mistakes, and other people might you know point them out, but but that's okay.

The Impact of Visual Badges on Connection

SPEAKER_00 16:10

But yeah, but what's wrong with that, right? Uh so I did a I did a workshop recently about visual storytelling uh for some writers in Geneva because um they are basically novelists or poets and they w would love to use more visuals in their work. So they're asking me a a question that's sort of like connected to what you say about uh the fear of making mistakes. They asked me, but Shazira, like should we draw exactly like if we want to draw a character, should we draw a human, an exact human? I told them that uh there is this um this um artist on Instagram that had a huge follower. I I can't remember her name, and she basically draw stick figures and made her message, pictures with stick figures. And and I showed them uh the work of this artist on Instagram, and I say, it's not about how perfect the visual you made, it's about how the visual you create can convey the message that you want to, because that is what people want to see. And um you don't have to draw like Leonardo da Vinci or you know any of this great artist. That's not that's not the point of it. Um what I like as well about what you say is the process, because one thing that adds to doubt about your work is of course your live drawing uh sessions. Um, I mean, I I love it. I adore it. I think the first time I met you was maybe two years ago at the Data Fam Europe when you were uh doing data portraits for the participants. And I really love how how interactive and engaging the the session is. It's because, you know, in addition to getting all these cute badges at the end that says a lot about ourselves, and I still keep mine, and I I take it with me everywhere I go. Um I also love how it's not just about the end product, but also the whole process. The whole process of you communicating with the person up to the up to the point where you create the the badges, right? How do you think these visual badges or portraits, you know, based on your observation, change the way people connect at events? Because, you know, it's not just a data femme, you also do it at the I think Outlier Conference and Cela V. So you've seen how these sessions work, right? So I just want to see if you can tell us a bit more about you know the the outcomes or the result of it.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, uh that's an interesting question. Um they so first of all they're really fun to do. And that the one where was Data Fam Europe 2024, where I made the badges live. I think I was getting the one done every 60 to 90 seconds. So these were that's like from blank paper to like made press badge. So there was a lot of that, yeah, it was really fun, but yeah, people's likeness was questionable. I was like two two dots, some hair, gonna, you know, encode the data in there, you know, what color's your top? Do you have stripes and am I colouring in your cheeks?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

I think you're being too modest. I think they are amazing.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

It was it was really fun. Um, but how that one in particular was it oftentimes when you talk about data badges, um, you say like these will help people connect. But when they're sort of a more intricate or abstract picture, they don't help people connect in the way that you might think. Because they are quite involved and you can't see them from a distance and go, like, actually, you you know, yellow, that means you're this because you've got to get quite close to somebody who maybe you don't want to be staring at their chest or their shoulder or something like that. So those more intricate visualizations, how they connect people is become it becomes a um uh a common thing people have. People have this badge, it might they mightn't be able to read it, but they have the shared experience of getting it made for them. And so instead of looking at the badge and being able to go, hey, you how you know, this is the first time you've been at one of these conferences. How are you finding it? Because maybe you can't tell that until you get within a meter of the person and squinting at their shoulder. Because also it's quite dark sometimes in conference, you know, spinning lighting. So in that way, they don't act as specific conversation starters, but what they do do is they're like, we both have the same thing. We've got this lovely badge. What and then you will ask somebody to tell them about what your badge shows. You might ask, where did you get it? Because that one I was doing them live. Um, so or maybe if everyone gets a badge before they they come, or is it takeaway, then it's a memento, and everyone can share and be like, this was really nice, this thing. So how they act as conversation starters when they're quite intricate is different to how they act as conversation starters if they're much more simple. Um, so when they're very simple, um at Data Fam Europe 2025, I made um was asked to make um a design that would scale um because I'm not making was not making them live in 60 seconds. Um, and so this idea uh was you would write ask me about and one word and like quite large, and you know, write it, you'd write it down yourself in like black pen, and then you had a color around the badge. And that was much simpler encoding, and that would help at a distance because it was quite large. You could read that one word, you know, ask me about my dog, or ask me about the Data literacy. That might be a bit large to put on it, but that was a much easier conversation starter piece because they were very simple and much larger. And that connects people in a different way because that would legitimately be, I don't know who you are, this is a conversation starter. But the intricate badges I made, um, I and same at said LeViz, um, that's a shared experience. So that connects people through a shared experience, while a very simple design might connect people by giving them one data point at a distance that then they can then start a conversation about. So that's sort of two different ways that badges work. The last way that data badges work is if you get people to make them themselves. So then it's like a crafting experience. And that gets people to connect through a shared crafting, like through shared experience, but more get them to connect because if you're doing it at a table with somebody else, you're physically there um, you know, working and you might ask them a question, but it also helps people connect because it gets people in a different mindset. If you know you've been sitting in on, you know, strategy for next year or where this product is going, or you've been listening to some really interesting case studies about how a different person is using this product, and then you get to go out and you know, stick some stickers down and glue some things together. That's a real change of pace, and that will help people connect because it just de-stresses everybody a little bit. It gets them used in their hands when maybe they've just been on their phones, rant you know, really quickly trying to type out social media posts. So it's a real change of pace. So that's like the spectrum of data badges and how they work in slightly different ways. They all help people connect, but they help them connect in slightly different ways. But yeah, it's all a shared experience. Um, and it's different. And frankly, different is fun. And if they're handmade by somebody else just for you, then that's showing, you know, that's nice. People like things being made for them. And if it's something you're making together, that's nice because it's really fun to do. Um, even if you've just written written one word down, saying, like, ask me about I'm not sure, your favorite food, pizza or something like that. Maybe you've got a great pizza story you want to tell people. Um, you're invested because you've put some of your own information into that. And if it's somebody else has made it for you, then you have a shared experience. Um, and like it, it's like a shared language, even if you can't immediately read it off each other.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

I I totally bel I totally agree with you because I actually um steal the idea from from my workshop. But um that's great. Yeah. I was like, okay, I think I think um Sophie needs to patent this um hard, not in order to get it.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

No people need to do it. Everyone needs to do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah, and um, but instead of badges, I sort of um create like um uh blank t-shirts like from paper, and then ask them to design their t-shirts. Um, and and what would they put at the center of the t-shirt? And I I totally agree how it turned out to be a very fun shared session. What I also noticed is that it sort of um, you know, piqued people's curiosity to to sort of ask questions about the other people as well. Because, you know, I think this is another element that I really, really love from the sessions or from from this activity that that I saw you did and the one that I stole from you is that how it encouraged people to just uh to to to ask questions uh and and and to do it in you know in a in a fun way. And when I brought my badge, I was wearing the one that you did for me to the workshop. Um, because then they start asking me as well, right? Like um the origin of the batch, what what is the story behind it? And I I love the idea how that sort of opened doors for you to get to know each other and also, you know, figure out and find out more the stories uh behind it. I'm curious though, if this you know, live data drawing and and data portraits has have you ever done it for companies for them to do team building or sessions like that? Um I have.

Live Sketch Noting: Capturing the Essence

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, I've done it, I've done a few um for it's because it's the live drawing in particular. Um, well, the badges were for Tableau. That's a big company. That was part of the surprise and delight idea around their conferences. People love this sort of stuff. Everyone's bored of the same type of conference. Like these aren't boring, they're different. Um, I've I've so yeah, I've got kids. If I was talking Blue E, they are rememberable if you've ever watched that episode. People remember them, they are memorable, um, they are fun and they are different. Um, live the data drawing I do, which is sort of similar. So this is um it's like a it's just something I do, um, which it's it's it's a way of sketchnoting. Um, however, so I'll I'll explain if people mm have never seen them, which they probably haven't. Um so live sketchnoting is you listen to people talk and then you um sketch out, draw um pictures with a few words about the key points that they make during that talk. Um what I do is I I I do do traditional sketchnoting, but what I am really drawn to doing is basic maths while people talk. So I I latch on to a few things. How many like this is um uh instead of the content, this is I want to capture the metadata around their talk. How many times do they change slides? How many times do people clap? When do people clap? How many times do they say the word data or analyst or story or storytelling? Um, how many variations do they have on story, storytelling, storytellers, um, you know, whatever it is? So I go into a uh into a talk with a rough idea of some metrics I might want to capture about the talk. And what this for me, I do this personally all the time because it makes me pay attention. Like you can't drop the ball and you know, your brain wander off somewhere. So if I want to pay attention to something, I count how many times they change slides. So often if I'm doing it personally, I just tally it up on the side of, you know. Um, but my live daughter drawings, I usually um sketch the person and then I add this information in onto them, onto the sketch of the person. So maybe it's the strands of their hair, or the pattern of their jumper or their top, or how many earrings they have, um, or the shape of the necklace I'm putting on them, or something like that. Um, and so it's done live. I don't actually know exactly what I'm gonna track before I go into a talk. I have some ideas, um, and that is because you don't know what's gonna happen. Um, I've had experiences where I've done this virtually and I thought, well, I'm gonna track how many slides they use, but then they only show the speaker, or I'm gonna track how many times a speaker um, you know, gesticulates with the hands, but they only show the slides. So you you have to have some flexibility when you go in. So I I have a rough idea, but I never know exactly what I'm gonna do until the talk starts, and usually until a minute or two in. So the first few minutes I'm on a separate sheep of paper, wildly tallying up everything that happens or how long each person is speaking in a in, let's say, discussion forum. Um and then sort of by minute two or three, I'm like, okay, this is beginning to shake out, and and then I'll go on and track. Um, so yeah, I they I do them personally because it helps me really pay attention in a talk. Um and I also do them commercially for for companies or for events. Um, either people can share them with attendees afterwards or they can share them with speakers as like a thank you for talking extra gift sort of thing. Um yeah, so there's like a commercial aspect to it too. Um, but it's it's a bit hard to get people to sketchnoting is becoming better known, but because I'm capturing the metadata around something, not the actual what they're talking about, it's um it's not as common for people to be like, we want you to do this. Um, but it's really fun when people do, but I do it anyway, so it's like a bonus if somebody wants to pay me for it. But I'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

I mean, I hope that if if they listen to this podcast, um, I hope it will intrigue them to approach you and maybe you know invite you to to do a session, you know. I think I think more needs to be done in terms of raising people's awareness on on how um useful and important uh at one point you did present something about self-quantified movement. I I can't kind of come across and and and and hurt your presentation. And do you think that because of this emerging um interests and popularity of self-quantified movement, it it allows a space and also a recognition or appreciation for for people to get into data sketching or data drawing? I definitely think it does.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

And one a term term I I learned that I'd never heard before when I was um doing my masters is ortho ethnography. So quantified self, or I'm just keeping a little diary, it belittles what you're doing, which is critically thinking about your experience in your life. And um so giving it a fancier term makes makes you makes you realize that this is actually a legitimate area and way that um things that people would want to do. And it also has a really low barrier to entry because it's about you. Like you can track how many things that people often track, you know, how many times they go to the gym. Like, does that just have to be in an app, or could you put some stickers on a chart on a wall and draw some swirls on the stickers when you, you know, do a leg day opposed to I'm not sure hit class or something like that? Um or you know, people might track, but it then it like you get a bit weird and you realize all the things you track without realizing it as well. So your machine your devices track a lot of information for you. I mean, how many photos have you taken? You could look at that by month. That's an interesting thing. Um so there's it's a lot of sort of beginning to understand yourself better, and also then people begin to do it about things they really love. Um I would love it if somebody tracked all the I I I used to be a Mad Keen, um great British British bake-off fan, like the the show when um when it was originally Mary Berry and Paul Hollywood, and he used to do that handshake. Um I I wish, I wish, I wish I had the time to go back and watch all of the early seasons. And every time he gave a handshake, track it. And do the people he give handshakes to, are they more likely to win? Are they not?

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Could could we have a handshake, you know, thing, size, graph, many handshakes? I don't know. But um definitely it it brings in some whimsy as well, which I think helps people, because then you're visualizing information that is personal to you, means a lot to you, and you probably really like, and when you like doing something, it's fun. And when it's fun, you want to do it and you want to communicate it with other people. Um so yeah, I think it is a real uh way to get people into use understanding that everyone analyzes data. Everyone does, everyone looks at charts, they just don't realize they do it. Um, and if you then say, well, you don't need to be comfortable using Excel to do this, you could just draw it out, then it, you know, it becomes much um a lot less intimidating. And I think more people would help raise general data awareness at least and data literacy.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

I I totally agree with you. I think my earliest work on Tableau Public was literally about me talking about my mood swing. And um I I track it on my phone literally um all the data that I needed actually in my WhatsApp uh channel. Um, because uh because as you said, you know, like that's also another thing, right? Like when you are tracking your own data, that means you are accountable not to anyone but to yourself. What if I don't track everything? Am I lying about my data? Or what if there are days when, for instance, in my case, um, and I sort of like share that as well when I talk about it, um, is that I don't necessarily track all the days because when I'm really down and when I'm really, really like not in the mood to do anything, how can I track my data, right? And and this is like one also one of the biggest um obstacle or challenge as well, if if you want to track a data, for instance, about your mental health or your mood swings or your uh depression. And I felt that the the the discrepancy for the lack of better terms or the gap that you might see in the data is not an indication of failure, but rather the fact that as a human being, this is what it is, right? Um there are moments where you can't capture the data. But what what what what do you think about that though? I think that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Like I'm I miss data all the time. Um I know I stop and start things all the time. I really liked um so I remember following um the Dear Data project uh on Twitter, back when it was Twitter in like in 2014, um, and seeing the postcards and then seeing that, you know, and some of them Stephanie was you know, Stephanie, for instance, might say, I just forgot to track anything this day, or I was really hungover. It didn't happen. Because it's human, but that also I I think helps normalize with people that data isn't perfect and there is a real human element. And you know, we I I remember this from back in my data analyst days. Occasionally we um uh one project I was working on was a franchise looking at um doing the analytics for a large franchise, and most of them sent their data in regularly as an automated push. Um but a few of them, like sorry, yeah, an automated pull, but a few of them pushed their data to us because they were very small or they uh, you know, for whatever reason. And then occasionally some months our numbers would be completely different from what they were earlier on that month because somebody had pushed all this data to us, and now all of a sudden it looked from going profitable to not profitable or not profitable to profitable. And you're like, why? How did we report incorrectly to the client? You're like, no, no, at the time we reported exactly what we had, but life happens and Disney has now come in here, or you know, I I think yeah, accepting that humanness in your own data and your own way helps you accept the humanness in other data. And it also is a real reminder that lack of data is just as important as data. It means something. So what does it mean? Like let's get curious about that.

The Lightning Round : Data vs Ink

SPEAKER_00 37:53

I totally agree. Like I think um the fact that it absence of data is data in itself. Like it it says something about the situation, right? Like I think in the work of human rights, um, in my work in human rights, I always emphasize that yes, the way you look at impunity, for instance, is some of these actions or this horrendous actions of impunity is not done blatantly in public. It's done far from the eyes of the public. And so there's no data to be obtained or to be retrieved or to be collected. But that says a lot as well. The silence and the zero means so much as well to the problem. So I think uh we we need to start putting value on the so-called imperfections and absence as well, and because it also tells you a lot and it tells you a story that maybe cannot be told by the data that you that you have, I think. Um so I I want to go into what I would say a data and ink lightning round. It's basically me. I want to keep it fun as well because it's not you know, often I have such a fun and uh cool person as as a guest on my podcast. So this is a lightning round where I give you some questions and I just want you to give your answer um spontaneously. So the first question is analog or digital, if you had to choose. So will it be a sketchbook or a blank tableau canvas? Sketchbook. Okay, me too. Um and then the golden rule. Now, what do you think is one data visualization best practice that you think is actually okay to break for the sake of art?

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Oh, there are so many. Um this is where do I start? Um only one. Only one. Um bugger the data rank ratio. Like just who cares?

SPEAKER_00 39:59

You hear it first here. Who cares? Um the third question now, colour theory. Is there one color that should be banned from all dashboards forever?

SPEAKER_01 40:14

No, but flural yellow is really hard to see.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Okay. We love all the colours.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

I love all the colours.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

We love all the colours, yeah.

unknown 40:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

So you can also say there's no colour to be banned.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

I mean, no no colour to no colour to be banned, um, but definitely colours to be thought about how readable it is on the medium that it's going to be presented on.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

All right. So, next question. What's the one V you've seen on Tableau Public that you still think about years later?

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Um I think it would have been, and he's uh deleted his account. It would be Johnny Walker's Old Vizas. Um I've never seen it. And he deleted all his accounts. He did this was back in 2016. He'd do these amazing large visualizations that were incredibly intricate with lots of photos. They were very infographic. He did a great series of them around Kakapo, um, the um critically endangered New Zealand bird. Um, and they were they were some of the first visualizations that you looked at them, you're like, this is not tableau. Like this, this, this looks like an amazing thing made in Illustrator. This does not look like Tableau. Um, so I still think about those visits. It was one of the first like head turning where people who might have been snooty about Tableau were actually like, Wow, I didn't realize you could do this in it. Why why did you delete his account? Um I don't actually know. I he fell out of love with the tool. Um I think but I'm sure there are still some some of the static images, I'm sure, floating around, especially his ones about cacapos. He he um he really loved birds and he did um a lot of help raising awareness with um with charities in New Zealand about them. So there might sound you around.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

You made me curious. I'm gonna I'm gonna look for it. I'm gonna search for it.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

So Johnny J H O N N I.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Alright, I'll get I'll get the details from you afterwards because it sounds very interesting and intriguing um from that. Um next one. If you could visualize any data set in the world to solve one problem, what data would you dive into? Oh, this is too hard. Um sorry.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

No, I think I'd do I'd look at gaps. I wouldn't want to visualize something. I would well, I wouldn't visualize it traditionally at all. I'd want to do something where physically dig up holes in a road or something and say, this is how many gaps there are in, you know, this area of data. Why aren't we tracking these things? This would be you you wouldn't drive on this. Why is this an acceptable, you know, data policy? Um for the time of life I am now, this would probably have to do with maternity, small children, and women's issues and childcare because that's just where I'm right now, and I keep on bumping into the fact that this is all these missing data sets, and you're just like, Why aren't we tracking this anymore? Um But yeah, no, I think something where you could like physically a stretch of road and just put a bunch of potholes and be like, this is how many things we're not tracking. I wouldn't drive on this.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

I agree. Okay, we've got two more to go. Um one book that every data enthusiast should read.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Data feminism. Data feminism.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Iep Data Feminism uh by Catherine De Zangio and Laura Klein. I just butchered her name. It's it was it was one of Those books that it made, you know, it it makes people realize that there is so much of what they ex know as data and just accept. You're like, but why is it? Why do we accept it that way? Why, you know? Um, and also then you get curious and you watch lots of their talks because a lot of the um principles they put forward are brilliant, but in practice it's really hard to do, and they are very open with how hard it is to do a lot of those practices. Um, you know, show plural plurality um and things like that in in corporate and you know, what we'd consider traditional dashboard data situations. And they they show a few examples where people and companies are doing it really well. So it is possible, it's just a huge mindset shift. But yeah, I think it's one of those books that opens people's eyes. So I'd say that's one everyone has to read. Also, you can listen to it, read it for free online, so you don't even have to pay for it.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah, I think I think a lot of policymakers should read the book as well. Because one thing that I took out of the book that I think is interesting in the conversation I had when I was still working as a human rights lawyer is the dilemma of segregating the data according to gender and the implications of it, right? Because I think a lot of people take it for granted that what is the problem of just putting the numbers for male and female and in many contexts or situations that could be counterproductive or or an issue. And yet at the same time, we need to also see the problems better by desegregation. So I I totally agree with you. Last question data, art or science? Definitely an art.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Um yeah, it's not it's I mean, there is a science, but it's an art because you have to begin to under. Sorry, yeah, of course I like data art as well. But I think even if you're building dashboards, corporate dashboards, it's an art because you need to well, we should all need to be artists. We need to have a creative mindset and and and embrace that. And you also need to understand that data isn't perfect and precise. And so there is a lot of experience that goes into it and creativity, and those things I don't think people associate with science per se. So definitely an art.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Spot on I also think that uh data is an art. Um, co-opted by science. Okay. So there's a lot of conversations around co-option nowadays, and I just have to use the word. Um, so I I am now very interested and keen to know if you know you have any upcoming projects or visas or initiatives that you want to share with the listeners out there.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Yeah, I am I'm I'm in this like currently treading water on a few projects um for funding, um, but I'm going ahead with a few of them anyway. So one project um starting at the end of this month and going into March is looking at zines. What is a zine? Um doing that with the univers um UAL University of Arts London's um zine collection. Um, so that should be really fun. Uh, another project I have got the data for is my dad's um music collection. He collected he recorded every LPCD cassette he bought since 1966, each with a unique identifier. Um and I'd really love to sonify that as a way to remember him better. Um, so those are two big projects, and then I've got a whole bunch of little data crafty things that I just continually do. So I need to start posting about them more. I actually full stop. So yeah, keep your eyes peeled for lots of little data crafty things that you might may and may or may or may not also want to do. So hopefully I can share some of those little crafty things I do.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Um, how can they how can people uh contact you or be in touch with you if they want to have you for their conference or activities?

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yeah, um at the moment, so my email is hello at sparkscreative.com. So H E L L O at Sparks S P A R K E S creative.com. Um, I do have a website, but it is woefully inadequate. Um so the best way to see what I'm doing and to contact me is probably on my LinkedIn profile, Sophie Sparks with it yes. Um but yeah, that's probably the the best way, either an email or find me on LinkedIn, and one day, one of these days, I will get my website into better shape.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

No, awesome. I will definitely also add all the contact details, your contact details and information as well, uh, in the notes section of the podcast. So if anyone is interested to, you know, be in touch with you and get you to do some of your amazing activities uh for DR events, you know, they can, you know, get in touch with you directly. So, Sophie, I mean, I don't feel like we've spoken for almost an hour, to be honest. I felt like time just fly with you. I mean, this is the kind of talk that I want. As you as you can see in the date, I can be a good listener. And um, especially, you know, it's not so hard to do it with you, but thank you so much for um you know for your time and for your thoughts about data and art. I really, really appreciate it. And before we end this conversation, sad to say, um, would you like to say a few words uh to our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Um no, thank you so much for having me. And yeah, I think people just need to give it a go. Be just try, try thinking, just put the pen to paper. That's probably the easiest thing. Just get ideas out of your head onto paper without any judgment and just see where things go. And don't be afraid to don't be afraid to try something a little bit wacky um and way outside of any box, uh, because the world is just getting more and more automated, and what makes you who human will probably connect with other people. Um, and that's always a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Nice, nicely said, nicely put. Um, thank you again, and I hope to see you soon, Sophie.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

No, thank you so much for having me, Shazira, and yeah, hope to see you soon as well. Thanks, heaps. Bye. Bye.