020: Why Your Body Isn't Your Business Card - Building a PT Industry That Actually Works

Rhiannon once won a "biggest transformation" award at her gym, and the first thing her PT said wasn't how do you feel? It was: your next goal is 12 stone. That moment, where a hundred pounds of progress was reduced to a number on a scale, is exactly why this conversation exists.

In this episode, Rhiannon Cooper (Not So Typical Fitness) sits down with Claire Bonnet, a personal trainer just three months into her career whose books are already full, to talk about what it actually means to train people well. They get into the real reason the Not So Typical PT Network exists: not just to connect clients with values-aligned trainers, but to stop good PTs from burning out alone in an industry that often mistakes a six-pack for expertise.

What we cover:

• Why Claire's coaching business filled up fast, and it has nothing to do with how she looks
• The before-and-after photo culture that's pushing vulnerable clients away
• Why collaboration isn't just nice to have, it's how the right clients find the right trainer
• Recovery, autonomy, and giving clients permission to have a bad day
• The loneliness of being a non-traditional PT and why community is the fix
• How Rhiannon built a first-page Google ranking from scratch, and why that matters for the network
• What fat loss coaching looks like when it's done safely and ethically
• Where the Not So Typical PT Network is headed next

Timestamps:

• 00:00 — Introduction to the Not So Typical PT Network
• 03:45 — Why the fitness industry is uniquely brutal if you don't look a certain way
• 08:17 — "Your body is not your business card"
• 09:36 — Why Rhiannon built the network: vulnerable clients, no safe referrals
• 11:16 — The before-and-after photo in the disabled loo (and why it's not okay)
• 15:36 — The loneliness of being a non-traditional trainer — and why PTs leave
• 37:27 — Recovery: the thing nobody talks about enough
• 44:19 — Rhiannon wins a transformation award. Her PT's response says everything.

Resources mentioned:

• ⁠Not So Typical Fitness⁠
• ⁠Daniel Priestley — Key Person of Influence⁠
• ⁠Chris Do — The Futur⁠
• ⁠Progress tracking: why video beats the mirror ⁠

Connect with Claire Bonnet: ⁠Instagram⁠

Want to join the Not So Typical PT Network? Applications are open, but vetted. It's £25/month and alignment with the network's values is required. Find the application form here: ⁠https://www.notsotypicalfitness.co.uk/pt-network ⁠

Stay you. Keep showing up. Focus on the metrics that actually matter.

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Transcript

0:01

Hi and welcome to the next episode of the Not So Typical Fitness podcast. I'm your host Rhiannon Cooper and today I'm talking to Claire Bonnet all about the Not So Typical PT Network. It is the place to be if you're a personal trainer who's a little bit different because of the way you think or the way you look and it's about building community and helping people like us stay in the industry. This will also be really useful for anyone who is looking to start their fitness journey or aspiring to be a personal trainer. So don't let it put you off if you're not quite there yet. There'll be something in there for you, I am sure of it. So sit back, listen and enjoy and please subscribe, like, share and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. hello, do you want to introduce yourself, Claire? Yeah, thank you. So yeah, I'm Claire. I'm a personal trainer, qualified personal trainer. um I've only been qualified since the beginning of January of 2026 but after a lot of reflection and thought last year I thought you know what let's just go for it so yeah I fitness I've been into fitness for a decade over a decade now I've had a real journey with fitness you know came into it wanting to lose weight and thought that exercise would sort of help me achieve that dream body that everyone like talks about or wants or, know, um, but actually I've sort of through some really good coaching myself and having had that coaching relationship with my coach, um, have kind of found, I suppose, more than just aesthetic reasons as to why fitness and, and, and exercises is so great, you know? So yeah, with that in mind, I thought, okay, there's not that many of Let's have some more. I think it's probably getting a bit better, but yeah, I've only been qualified at the beginning of the year, but I have clients. I work out of the gym group in Kidderminster. It's a great gym, really inclusive. Everyone is really welcoming. I've only been there since the beginning of Feb. And yeah, it's going well. Which is amazing because I did not realise your business actually like when you started and qualified was so recently. Yeah, everyone says this to me, I suppose, you know, people assume I've been doing this for years. Yeah. I guess it's probably just from consuming and, you know, being obsessed with fitness, I suppose, you know, before January of this year, I've had years of, you know, YouTube's and reading and conversations with people about fitness and em conversations with my own coach and podcasts and just so much of it. And then also watching, I suppose, the people whose social media I like and whose kind of social media I ultimately want to emulate because they've sort of set that up. em You know, lot of kind of like cutting through the noise a little bit and trying to, I suppose, have a place where, because think connection is quite important on social media, but have a place where people can come and go, do you know what, I don't really know what this is, like, is a Menno belly real, or is this going to happen to me if I try and deadlift this? And it's like, no, probably not. So creating a space where, you know, you can kind of demonstrate that you are a trustworthy person in the fitness industry, because that's really hard to come, to come by I think because well the fitness industry is fitness industry isn't it so em so yeah Fitness industry is a hard place to exist in. Yeah, we've had this conversation, haven't we? em I think the fitness industry is hard to exist in if you don't look a certain way, if you don't act a certain way, if you don't present in a certain way. The fitness industry isn't scared to be like, who do you think you are? And I don't know of any other industries that are like that really. It's so based on appearance and that's it. And I think that's why I know I connect with lots of personal trainers like yourself and they're usually people who do actually come to it a bit later in life. Like you've done a bit of living and you kind of know what you'd like to do, you know who you are and then you sort of make the transition to help people. But it's important because I think at that point you've got that... It is, I hate the whole like life experience thing, but there's this element of you understand that looks aren't everything when you're older, which I think means because PTs typically are young, they kind of, you know, they enjoy fitness, so that's what they do. And they don't have knowledge, in my opinion, often that extends beyond the way a body looks. I think the reason why my coaching is full is because I'm a 36 year old woman that looks the way that I do. Now my business, it's, it's got nothing to do with how I look. I just happen to look the way that I look. And I know a lot about fitness and I can get most people a bit better and a bit stronger, which is what most people want. And so yes, when I've had conversations with like clients or like prospective clients at kind of at that consultation stage. they sort of say, it's really nice to talk to somebody who understands I've got two children or three kids and I've got this and I've got that and I've got all of this stuff, but also recognises the need to just be bit fitter and a bit stronger because they've had that conversation with their doctor or they just feel like they don't, feel like, they often say like, I don't feel as strong as I used to. And it's... I mean, it's probably easy for me to say, but actually just, you know, two 30 minute or two 45 minute sessions a week or, you know, 15 minutes a day, whatever it is of like some strength training and some conditioning can, can really sort of, you know, change how people feel about themselves. know, it, I, you know, I, I truly believe that like, order to fitness has to go beyond aesthetics. It has to go beyond aesthetics if people are going to do it for life. and yeah life better and easier and all the things that you want to do easier and better. And also give yourself the opportunity and choice to be able to do those things, know, whether it's like I did a trail run last year and I absolutely loved it. I wouldn't have done that if I was only training for aesthetics because... You know, but it's like the freedom of running through a field with cows, you know, it's like, you know, my body through some training and through some, you know, consistent training has enabled me to be able to do this. And I think that's beautiful. I really do. I think it's wonderful. And I think that it just shows when you are able to do something like that, that other people can do it too. And that's the power. yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, other people could do it too, like, there's, you know, there's got to be more conversation, more diversity and more kind of, like, realisation that, like, you know, fitness is for everyone. But, you know, the industry is this odd place where I guess... in order to, know, conversation I have with clients, like I don't feel like I should do fitness because I don't look like I should do fitness. And it's like, well, you know, actually a 20 year old with six packs, like, it ain't that hard, you know, like they're 20 years old. was good. I was in good shape when I was 20. I was 20. It's like, know, you're 50, 60, 70 year olds that you, that are kind of like outrunning you, outrunning the 20 year olds. Like that's quite impressive really from a fitness perspective. But, but yeah, like. you you almost don't want to the conversation around aesthetics because it kind of feeds into it in some way doesn't it? But it is a reality of the fitness industry. em But yeah, I just go back to I look how I look. Yeah, your body is not your business card. Yeah, exactly. em You know, there's lots of other things that I'm a business card, like how well people move, em how people feel post-session or during the session or even before the session. You know, it's those conversations, that's your business card. That's what I think will carry you through a fitness career personally. em You know, and I also think that I'm the kind of coach maybe that people will come to after about 25 rodeos of being on diet, you know, they're like, right, okay, it's probably time to talk to Claire about this now, you know what I mean? Like, it's probably time to talk to Rhiannon about this now. And, you know, people, I mean, we all like nice shiny things, right? Yeah, of course we do. people will buy it, people will buy into it. yeah, think that one thing that I've really been quite impressed, well, not impressed with, but pleased with is that people haven't, clients haven't gone to me, well, you don't look like, they've kind of just like, it's almost like a refreshing sort of like, yeah, Claire's, I trust Claire, she's the one that's gonna get me bit fitter and a bit stronger. Yeah, and I think this is why we sort of started to communicate as well is because of the, so I've created this like network thing because I get inundated with people who are asking, like, I want to work with you. And it's like, okay, I can do online. So they're the other side of the country. It's like, but they don't want online. And I get it because I don't really, it works for people. does. And I have an online coach. So it does, it has to work in a way. But I get it. And when it comes to the type of people I work with, they are nervous to walk in a gym for the first time. And the fear of it is that they're vulnerable and then they get taken advantage of. And it's made, it had this, it was a big sort of issue for me, because I want to be able to help everyone. Can't help someone if they're five hours away. But then it's like, well, how can I find other personal trainers? Because they are out there who have this similar approach or ethos and they're not weight loss coaches with eight weeks summer shreds. And actually they are more about functional fitness and confidence. And like you said, everything within a session and after a session and how it impacts life. And there's like a desperate need, I think, for this, like a directory of personal trainers that we, I can vet, we vet and we're like, they have an approach that aligns. because how awful would it be for me or for you to recommend somebody to someone because we've seen a couple of their posts and they're okay and they look good, but then actually they go there and they're like demanded to go in the disabled loo and take before and after photos, you know, their before photos and the PT's like standing outside the door waiting for it and this poor person just wants to enjoy movement. I mean, I think we've all seen that right in the gym where I've certainly seen that way. I've seen some stuff. I mean, you'll have seen some stuff, but people, yeah, you said they get marched into the toilets, right? Take your top off. Gonna take a before and after. I've heard a client of that person's going, do I really need to do this? Yeah, need to do this. Need to make sure. chick, chick. It's poor woman. I'm thinking. You do not need to do that. yeah it doesn't have to be like this but yes a network that we can refer out to because it's really really hard and i've been supporting one of my like really good friends to try and find someone who is similar. Now she lives in Manchester. She absolutely needs that one-to-one support in person, right? Because em is anxious, em you know, like got lots of stuff there that needs some work on with a coach. em And I, you know, it's only through knowing people because I'm in the industry that I could say, like, you know, I trust you to work with my friend who I care deeply about and who needs some real support here. Like, are you able to be that person? And obviously they've had conversations and she's done that betting herself as well. It's not just me, she's obviously got to be part of that conversation. But yeah, it's just so hard and it took weeks, weeks and weeks. Whereas if we had the network with, you know, PTs coming on board to set and we could say, right in the North of England, there are, I don't know, three coaches that taking on clients at the moment, one to one, one works out of this gym, one works out of this gym. Cool. You take your pick. You know what? Have a chat with all of them. Not a problem. I think this is the other thing, like people are like people buying coaching, PTing. It's almost like they are worried that if they get into a conversation with a PT or a coach that they're going to have to buy off that person. You know, I always say to all of anyone that talks to me, it's like, you might, I might not be the right person for you. That's fine. But you know, don't, don't feel like you have to buy anything from me because we've had a conversation. My job is to have these conversations with you. And if it's with me, great. If it's with somebody else, that's fine too. I think people feel a bit worried about even that initial step. So I guess with some sort of like established network. that you're trying to build, that kind of understanding is already there that we are in the network to be approached by people to have that conversation. And look, we don't live too far from each other, do we? But I could say, you know what, I might not be the right person for you, but Rhiannon is. That's fine. That's great. I'd rather you be helped by somebody than... Agree with that. That's it. And it's like in the fitness industry as well. think maybe more so than other industries, feels it's competition, not collaboration. Makes no sense. And it's like, that's how you end up with the woman saying to the PT, really don't want to be doing this, taking these photos because they're not the right match. And like, it baffles my brain. And like you've just said, your books are full. I have a wait list. So. It's not even like we could take on a client right now because we don't have the capacity, because there's not enough people doing it the way we do it, or at least being visible to help the people that already need it. It's, yeah, an odd conundrum. I think you just have to be intentional about finding out the people that will collaborate with you, will work with you, that obviously have a similar ethos, values, et cetera. I think that there's something to be said for just sharing each other's work, whether it's on social media, em tagging people, whatever it is. There's not enough of us as it is. em And we are also stronger together. Yep. The industry is so hard to exist in as a personal trainer who's different, whether that's mentally different, ability or disability or body weight, size, color of skin, whatever, whatever it is that makes you different and appeals to a group of different people, your approach, then we are the minority within the industry. And so in order to make change happen, you do need to able to lean on people and be like, you know, I'm struggling at the moment because it'd be too easy to walk away. because it's hard. Yeah, and I think that, you know, the rates of of PT's falling out of the industry is really high as it is, regardless of like their values or their ethos. It's really hard to break. But it also just is incredibly lonely. Like we've had this conversation, haven't we, where it can feel like a really, really lonely place. But it doesn't have to be like that. But you as an individual, you have to find your people. Like you have to kind of like... break out a little bit and go, you know what, this isn't feeling quite right for me. All the colleagues, my colleagues who are on the gym floor. I mean, I don't feel like this about my colleagues, but like, you know, I've been in spaces where you can kind of see that PT's aren't getting on. em So if it's not on the gym floor, it can exist on social media, conferences, events and things like that. But it takes you putting yourself out there and you know, and actually we ask our clients to put themselves out there when it comes to trusting us with their fitness. So I think we have to kind of like do a similar thing with our businesses and you know, and I also think there's something about trust, right? I was listening to a podcast the other day and It was this woman, she coined that term, em not training for my summer body, I'm training for my old lady body. She's just really in book. I can't remember her name now, but she was on a podcast and the guy was saying, that saying phrase that she's coined has been so ripped off now. it never comes back to her even though she was the one that did it and he said that she you know he shared it directly from her because he wanted her to get that recognition but not only does he get he he gives her her flowers in that recognition but also I guess subconsciously I now trust him because he's shared something that I align with And I may not have followed him before or listened to his podcast or read his emails or whatever, but I do now. It's that somebody said that we're in like a trust recession and that it's so important to, even when it comes to sharing things, like to find things that align with you so that when people do see it, they can see who you are, not just the stuff that, you're putting out there yourself, but actually the connections and the people you spend time with. Because there's this quote, and I don't know who said it, but like, you are the sum of the most three people you spend the most time with or something like that. And that's, I believe that's very true. And so it is like you build your, I don't want to say brand, but it is a brand of how you run your business and how you deal with people and interact with people by I think, yeah, sharing the people whose stuff you align with, which is often quote unquote a competitor, because actually you are in the same field, but it doesn't mean you have to compete. can do this like. collaborative approach where yeah, I agree, I'm gonna share it and help you because that helps me and it just grows your network. And I think, you know, in any job industry, like it's competitive to a point, right? you know, I don't know how many people are going for jobs these days, but you know, like it's all, but you wouldn't not have a conversation with your colleague who does the same job as you. You might be going for the same job. You wouldn't avoid having a conversation with them about it. Like you go like, how, you know. How did you find it? Like, how did you find the interview? What did you put on your application for this? Like, do know what I mean? Like, that just doesn't really exist in the fitness industry. It is odd, but it's not, it is getting, I think it's getting, is it getting better? I think we see it through slightly rose-tinted glasses because we've created a space for us where we do see the people who align. So I think that, I know that there are personal trainers out there, because I talk to them, who are struggling in the industry. And it's just that they're at that beginning part where perhaps they are a younger person, but they're different and they're struggling. I think another thing to say about the network is that, yes, you can be listed. Yes, we can refer out to you and say, this person is part of the network, so therefore they're better than the trusted. But also that network exists to support the PTs. So you can have chats with us, you can have chats with other PTs, you could even meet up in real life if you wanted to. em go for coffees, like go for drinks, like say, like, I'm going to this event. Are you going? Do want to go together? Like, you know, all of that sort of stuff. Like I'm going to event at the end of April. I mean, I'm that's in eight. That's that's yeah. Yeah, is this at the end of the end of this month? em And, you know, it's I mean, it's in Birmingham, but. it's like I don't really have anyone to go with and I'm just gonna go and I'm pretty confident in these things so I'm alright but not everyone is. em Yeah but yeah the network also exists to support other PTs as well it's not just about like you'll sit on this list and then we'll you you'll get contacted by somebody it's also about you know the support you can get from from each other. Exactly. Because I think that's what, obviously there's that aspect of we want to help the people because that's why we became a PT is to help people who need this sort of approach. But you've touched on it earlier, the turnover rate of personal trainers is so high because, and we're not just talking about neurodivergent or fat or whatever, like just PT's because it is really hard and there's so many of them. there isn't really a, at least one that aligns with me, a community that you can join that isn't about your body as your business card, isn't about push your clients harder, get their before and after pictures. And it doesn't mean that this approach is wrong, like our approach, it just means that nobody's actually made it yet. And I think that's because when you become a personal trainer, the industry is so tough that... the people with that approach unfortunately are gonna leave because it's too hard and you do feel too isolated and you haven't got a quote unquote business fitness mentor who can guide you on your business in the fitness industry and not this cookie cutter do these eight week plans and get these before and after pictures that's your social proof post it and I think it definitely is this like two-prong approach it's the here's to help your the person who wants to train for their old lady body and actually let's now support the PTs who can offer that help. Yeah, yeah, let's give them a platform, but you're right. And I think, yeah, maybe, you know, with the network, em and just by having these conversations, you can kind of, you know, hopefully like catch more people who are like, We've had two application forms. Oh, amazing. So there you go. She's growing. It does work. I think, know, in a kind of like, you know, you said trust recession, I think there's something around like, you have to kind of like demonstrate value before you can kind of, you know. I mean, that's sort of like part of like running a fitness coaching business is it's like, you you put out quite a lot of content before people even really like start to think about buying from you or know you or yeah, exactly. So I think, I think that applies to, you know, this sort of thing as well. Yeah, I heard, so I listened to a lot of podcasts and things, kind of, I guess, whilst I was qualifying with my business in my mind for when I got to this point. people like Daniel Priestley and Chris Doe talk about, so it's personal branding stuff really, and becoming a key person of influence. And there's this magic number of, I think it's either seven, nine or 11, and my brain can't remember right now. in it. points, yeah, it's like someone's got to have naturally or organically seen you and your existence that many times before they really think about who you are and if they wanna work with you. And so if you're just a PT that just works in a gym, and I'm not like saying just in a negative way, but if you don't build your personal brand and your business, you're not gonna get seen enough times for people to want to work with you. And I think that's why we're chatting today is because I want the... the PTs who join the network to have another opportunity to have a contact point like this, where somebody can listen and be like, my God, I want to work with or be in the network. But it's just that extra point of contact where they can learn about you and me and how it can be. And that's, it's like a lack of opportunity that comes within this industry because of the competition element, I think. So, and AI, AI is rife everywhere in so many posts and just... all over the internet and I think that's why talking like this as well is so important because it's real. Yeah, I think with AI, I know that like, obviously, lots of people do their content with AI and all the rest of it, I get that. But I do also think if you're standing in of someone, uh if you stand in front of a PT who's only used AI as their like, way to create content, if you're a consumer of that person, you're going to know pretty quickly. Right, you're going to know pretty quickly that they might not know entirely what they're talking about, you know, that sort of thing. I do think that but But yeah, having just like, you know, as we were saying, like just having the network to, yeah, talk about business even, you know, and then, and how to kind of like market yourself and how to kind of build that personal brand and, know, be that person that you, you are like a trusted person in, the health and fitness industry that, you know, people can say like Claire's gonna look after you, Riannon's gonna look after you, you are like the person, like you are at the forefront of their mind whenever they're programming for you or thinking about you or coaching you, like it's all about you, it's not about me or you know, yeah. Yeah, it's like a safe space for people who are navigating the same challenges because the challenges are very similar a lot of the time and gatekeeping that knowledge of how you survive and how you do kind of find clients isn't going to benefit anybody. So. I've had this idea with the network, having obviously I'd like a directory thing, but what I also notice is so I'm very in the sense of I'm relatively tech savvy and so I built my own website and I'm very proud of it and I love it. But it's on the first page of Google, how amazing is that? That doesn't happen unless you actually either spend thousands of pounds or do what I did in autistic deep dive and just spend every hour of every day for about a year learning it. it's, well, so this is the third. one I've had, same domain name, but I've moved platforms three times trying to find one I could do because I'm not a web designer. I started it with a blog on WordPress, a free blog. Then I moved it to like, it was like Weebly or some really weird thing I'd never heard of. Then I moved it to Squarespace, which is where I'm at now. And I learned how to do SEO and coding. So all of the Google Analytics stuff is good and that's worked. and creating like a web of me. So everything links. So Google knows this is my business. That's my website. That's my social media on Instagram. That's TikTok, LinkedIn. This is my other thing. Here's that. And it just knows. But that's where P... I know, I know. And okay, so this is sort of the thing, right? Is I have a website that's doing this. It's it's done the legwork and it's... So if anyone is listening, it's not so typical fitness.co.uk. Like that's the website. it's, made it really for me to grow my personal training business. Of course I did. But I'm at a point now where I'm having like guest blogs and I can like do reviews. I just got a load of stuff from MirrorFit to keep and I've done them at like a review because they wanted it because that is working. And it's like, I've got this resource and I want to be able to help other PTs with it. And luckily, thank God, I didn't brand it my own name because then I wouldn't be able to be doing this. But actually, there's this platform that I've made that I have full ownership over that I can use to help. So not just can the directory live on here where people Google and it comes up, but there's also a thing like I'm imagining having like just almost an offshoot. So someone could almost have like their own little PT website within. not so typical fitness because then it helps them. So it's like, it's not just the directory and it's not just the community, but I think there might also be like the visibility aspect of the platform I've created. I'm so proud of it. Honestly, I'm very proud of my website. Yeah. started learning about SEO. It's a lot, isn't it? It's a lot. And the more you learn, the more that's there. The more you learn, the less you understand, I think about like running a business and coaching and all the rest of it. But yeah, I think that sounds brilliant. I think, yeah, I just, I almost like listening to you talking about it. I'm sitting there thinking it's actually a no brainer. It is actually a no brainer. No, to join the network. Yeah it is, know, but you're in it so it's fine. But no it is because like, you can lean on people who've like done these things and like it might be that you've got a skill that I actually really need and we just don't know it because we haven't discussed it yet. But it is just, there's so much potential for people like us doing it differently, working with people in a different way. Like we've gotta help them to be visible and be findable. Cause if you're just in your gym, you're not gonna be found. I also think that. we get told and you've obviously shared your experience that like I think you had a PT who assumed that you wanted to lose more weight than you had or something like that to you. And I think often like when it comes to the fitness industry, it's almost like we remove we remove people's autonomy to think for themselves when it comes to their own fitness and their own health. em And we the industry tells them what they want. And actually, I think if people just took a step back and go, you know, I think I probably do want to work with a PT, but I want to work with a PT is going to treat like an adult and one that's autonomous and will collaborate with me and work with me to understand you know. what can fitness look like for me? Like doesn't have to be, you know, like the eight week shred or whatever else is going on. It can be, um you know, a collaborative coaching relationship and it could look like this sometimes, it could look like this some of the time. It's not linear. It's, you know, fitness is kind of up and down, up and down, up and down. Sometimes it feels great. Sometimes it feels like crud. Sometimes it feels great. Sometimes it feels okay. That's just fitness. So I think people who are kind of looking at fitness and health sometimes don't even know what they they're almost not given the opportunity to really sit and think about okay actually what do I want out of my fitness and what do I want out of working with a personal trainer because the fitness industry doesn't even give them the opportunity to think about it it's just like boom bam you want this how could you not want this this is what everyone wants Mm-hmm. We've we've spoken about this before we where I work so I work at JD gyms in Wolverhampton So another commercial gym group, but slightly different to yours We've got this PT wall and there'll be people who turn up for an induction and of course, I'm gonna I'm gonna be very I'm casting a big opinion here but the people that often come to the induction are the ones who are nervous and anxious and probably are intimidated and they'll turn up and in JD's you don't really book one you just turn up it's whoever's on shift will take that induction and I will take someone around and do my normal thing and then they'll mention PT because usually those are the ones that also want PT. Great. And we go to the wall and the first thing I say to them, my profile is right there in the middle. It's there. Great. Eye height, fantastic place. And I could pitch myself and I probably know this person would probably be quite safe with me. However, I always say like, here are all of the PTs, read the profiles because there'll be one who just speaks to you. Yeah, absolutely. want to go with and it might not be me, that's fine. I do not care. I would rather see you in the gym with the one that works for a long time than you have one with me and hate it because we're not vibing. And then other PTs in my gym will take someone on induction. They won't take them to the wall. They'll just get into pair deposit for PT and it work, but it doesn't work. And that's the, I can't remember how this links to what you just said, but that is the thing. It's providing people with the opportunity to think about, you know, I've got some hair in my mouth, to think about. what relationship they want with their PT. And like you, I always have that conversation with people like in an induction or like we do like a kickstart thing. you know, when I talk to people about it, it's like, okay, what, you know, what, think about what you want to get out of it. Think about like what kind of relationship you want to have with your PT. You know, I encourage you to have a chat with everybody on the gym floor, you know, not just me, but speak to so and so, speak to so and so, and get a feel for it. And then, you know, a decision because I think there's this thing around like we feel like people need to be rushed into making that decision otherwise they're never going to buy it's not true it's not true you know and we know that people take a long time to buy now like I think it's like six months now for people to buy so you might take a deposit for PT but they might leave you after a month Because they're not ready to make that decision and to make an informed decision. And then they won't come back. And I think ultimately, whether you work with me or somebody else on the gym floor, still, I love to build relationships with people. love to choose. Yeah. So, you know, and if it doesn't work out with that PT. Yeah, but also they'll probably come knocking on your door. You try with this person. We didn't quite match on this. I feel ready to go again. Have you got any capacity? And you go, yeah, sure, let's go. Let's talk about it. the person who treated them with kindness and let them think. it's basic humour stuff. I know, it really is. Yeah. Yeah, basic human stuff and I just think, well, yeah, like you said, you want the best for people when they come to you. Like, you, I guess in there's a way, like perhaps for you and I. When I started out, when I started to have conversations with like PTs or whatever on the gym floor, it's so scary, right? It's so hard for, know, whenever people reach out to me, I always go like, thank you for like reaching out to me because I know that even that step is really hard. I would say like people like might fill out my inquiry form and I'll respond and they might not get back to me and that's okay because like, you know, I understand that it takes time for people like, know, filling out an inquiry form is a big step for lots of people. And they might come back to me and know what, I'm not ready yet. Absolutely fine. Just thank you for reaching out. Like, thank you for thinking of me. em And I can remember what that felt like. I can remember feeling like, feels really scary to talk to this person who's jacked. Are you going to judge me? Are you going to tell me that I shouldn't even be here? Who the hell do I think I am? I mean, luckily I've had like excellent pretty much. consistently excellent coaching. I've had some tricky stuff, of course, like, and on reflection, look back and you think, well, I thought I don't really know if that was all right. But on the whole, em you know, having been coached and done CrossFit and powerlifting and now, you know, I train just for general strength and fitness. em all of that has sort led me and helped me kind of become the coach that I am today because there are coaching cues that I give to my clients now that I can remember my old coaches used to say to me. And I think if you're like a PT that's never really had a PT, it's probably quite hard to sort of like, I don't know how I would teach people how to move well if I hadn't have had that experience myself. I'm going off on a bit of a tangent, but yeah, I think it's that thing of like when people come to you asking you for help. they're vulnerable and they're particularly vulnerable because it's about their health and fitness and so you know you whether they work with you or somebody else you've got you what you always have hopefully their best interests at heart when you you know when you speak to them well i certainly do but not everyone does And that's why this network is so important, I think, is because so many people will do that lip service and say that they'll do all these things and of course, and then behind their clients back, they are slating their client because their client got sweaty or didn't want to do the last rep and that's not okay. It's not. And that's how we put people off fitness for life. And we don't want to do that. think about the relationship I with my clients. They feel comfortable to say to me, do you know what, Claire, I'm absolutely shattered. I'll go cool, we'll take it down a notch today. No pressure, Because something is better than nothing. And it doesn't have to be balls to the wall. let's go. Once every sort of four or five months maybe if you want to cool but otherwise we can train and it can feel hard during and you know you'll want to have a bit of a rest after 60 seconds, 90 seconds maybe two minutes if it was really heavy or it can we can go by how you feel and I think it goes back to that autonomy thing right like In order for people to kind of like do fitness for life, we have to get them building, I suppose, sort of instinct around fitness. like my PMS is horrendous, right? For a good week before I get on my period, I just hate everything. So I dialed, yeah, I dialed down my training because I'm knackered, right? My body's like, no, I don't do nothing. I could if I wanted to, but I feel worse for not doing anything. You know, I don't do really heavy deadlifts. I knock it down a bit. I'll swap it out for something else or I'll, you know, maybe just mess about a bit in the gym. you know, but I think that if you don't, I wouldn't have been able to do that if I hadn't have had the coaching that I have had for the last few years around like, it's okay to, you know, reduce the... you know, reduce the weight, reduce the intensity if you are PMSing. You know, if you've got a cold, go home. If you've got the flu, please go home. You know, like, yeah, all of that. Yeah. And I think that people think they need to just like, you know, yeah, push through and like, you know, I'm going to go harder today. And it's like, wow. Punishing your body for your body being a body? I don't think I was thinking about this this morning actually when I finished my gym session. I don't think recovery is talked enough about. em And like, I had this conversation with a client recently, em because she's feeling really, really good, which is like the sweet spot of where we want people to be with their training, right. But then obviously, what happens when people feel good, and they're kind of new to training is I want to do more. And that's great. I'm not saying no, I'm just saying, let's just see. and I said it's not just about you. in the gym feeling great. I'm really like, that is a sweet spot. Like I said, it's also about how you feel post gym and the next day and the next day. It's also about the fact that you've got this life, you've got children, you're perimenopausal, you're doing a PhD, you've got a full-time job, you've got all of these stresses. Your body doesn't know stress. Your body doesn't know what kind of stress is coming at it. It just knows stress, right? So an exercise, whilst it's good for you, is a stressor. And so we have to manage that all the time and we manage that through like sensible programming and if you're feeling good post-session and you're recovering well, pay attention to that just as much as you pay attention to how you feel during the hour in the gym that you're with me or when you do your own sessions. So I don't think recovery is talked enough about. think people feel like they need to feel beaten up for like three days after. But people that feel beaten up three days after, we don't see them again. Exactly. They're gone. it's glorified. It's like, well, you know, sometimes you might go a bit too heavy. I always say to my clients, if you feel like crap the next day, that's on me. We've gone a bit too heavy. We've gone a bit too hard. Let me know. That hasn't happened yet. I'm not saying it won't, might do at some point. But the recovery element, people, people really don't talk about it. And I see a lot of people train day in, day out, morning and night, hours on end. And I, you know, by their own admission will tell me that they don't feel great. And I think, well, yes, because you're not giving your body the opportunity to recover. Your body is doing its best. Mm hmm. It's this vicious cycle, isn't it? And from a neurodivergent perspective as well, we, so I say we, like the neurodivergent people that I know, we struggle giving ourselves permission to rest because we've been told our whole lives, or at least I have, that we're not doing enough, we're not good enough, we're lazy, we're bone-eyed, or we need to do more. and this kind of constant feeling that we need to be doing and actually to not do is we're at fault or we should feel guilty. The reality is once I had my diagnosis and I could actually, instead of feeling guilty when I'd sit and scroll my phone for an hour because I actually can't do anything else, I'm like, right, I feel like that. I'm gonna give myself permission to sit and scroll and that becomes a rest and a recovery time. So then I can get up and actually I'm like, okay, I did that, I've done that. I can move on. Instead of this like... hangover of guilt that you should have been doing all these things and you weren't. And it is that like giving, sometimes we have to give your clients permission to have a day off because actually that's what they need. But we're so used to push, push, push, push. And then you get PTs that say just push harder, one more rep and they'll count down from five, but they actually count in 10 seconds, not five seconds and all this awful stuff. Oh. Awful, but this is why we're going to change it and make it more accessible for people who need a different approach. Yeah. And you know, also I listen to my clients. They say to me, I've only got eight reps in the tank. Cool. You've only got eight reps in the tank. That's It doesn't matter. No, they're there, they're showing up, they're doing the thing. Yeah, but also like even just like from a like, you know, a fitness perspective, eight reps, 12 reps, it's not that big a deal. It doesn't matter. You know, if somebody's training consistently twice a week, it doesn't matter. But coaches tie their ego to it, don't they? they do, yeah, and they want that really impressive before and after photo, which actually just means nothing in the scheme of things. It means somebody's changed appearance, but does it, is it a definitive factor of health or? you ever do before and after photos for a PT? yeah. And I won an award at my gym for the biggest transformation of the year and nothing mattered other than my weight loss. And I left that gym, nothing else. So I left, especially when the PT then told me that my next goal, didn't sit down and discuss it with me. My next goal was 12 stone. That was it. I was at 13 and a half. She was like, I'd lost a hundred pounds at this point. I won this award. She's like next goal, 12 stone. I was like, but what about everything else I feel? Because I never joined a gym to lose weight. I was big, I needed to quote unquote, but I joined it to lift weights, to feel stronger, to be healthier, make my heart work, my lungs, all of the good stuff. But yeah, it all boiled down to, well, she's amazing because she's lost all this weight. And I felt like crap because actually I then was like, if this is what it is, if it's all about that number on the scales, I don't want to do it. Yeah, I mean, and it's something that you, I mean, it, you know, can, it's kind of a killer, isn't it? You know? I yeah, I walked out and actually it was a bit of a kickstart to me wanting to qualify because I had made so much progress, but because no one else could see it, it felt like it didn't matter. And it does matter. And I think someone needed to say that to me. So I've become that person now. So yeah. that's amazing. Yeah. So I have, and now I do encourage my clients to take a video of themselves because I do know the value of when you can't see that change yourself. And actually that can be so disheartening because you feel that you've done a year of consistent exercise. And we know that if you are lifting weights and you're working with a coach, your body is going to change because you will get stronger because it's the nature of it. But you look at yourself every day in the mirror and you don't see the changes and then one day, someone like you look at a picture of you and because we are so negatively taught growing up to think of ourselves and pick out our flaws, not our positives, we don't see the change. And for some people not seeing that change at that exact moment means they're going to say, well, screw this, I'm not going to bother because it is hard, it costs money and I'm not changing. And I do believe having a photo or I use a video because then they don't have to be constantly pressing it. They can just, you know. I've got a blog on it which I'll put on the show notes here. But there's a very powerful thing to be able to have that look. If aesthetics means something to a person, they need to be able to see it. Yeah, and I think it goes back to like what is it that matters to you? Mm-hmm. What does progress look like to you? So that might look like a bicep popping out. Cool. That might look like I've increased my leg press from this way to this way. Cool. I've increased my aerobic capacity. I can do more and it takes me, it doesn't gas me out in the same way that it used to. Great. I think that, you know, it is all about that individual and what does progress look like to you? And I guess for me, maybe this is a bit of a bias. Maybe this is something I need to work on, but I, you know, when, like when I talk to clients about their body and their changes, like they are excited by the fact that they can see a bit of definition in their arms. Like I had this conversation with my friend the other day, she's like, Oh, I've got a bit of definition here. And I'm like, cool, great, good. I get excited about the progress they're making when it comes to like, they can do more weight or they are moving a little bit better or, you know, they're kind of able to, I don't know, cycle 5k in X amount of time or whatever. That's the fitness nerd. But ultimately, it doesn't matter what we think as coaches, it's what progress do you want to... Yeah, what's progress look like to you and what forms you want it to take? em And we're allowed to change, like we will change and develop. Like I, I've been working a lot of call recently and my abs have started to come back in. I had abs when I lost that a hundred pounds, but they've gone, but they're back now because fat people kind of have abs actually. It just means the fat goes in a weird shape. Doesn't matter, but they're there. And I am quite chuffed because that shows hard work. And it's like, I'm really pleased with that. But for other people, like they just don't care about it. It's fine. It doesn't actually matter. And it doesn't. but actually this one particular thing for me is making me excited again. But it might not be next year, it will be something else and it just can be fluid. 100 % like sometimes I'll say to my partner or my friends I'll go, do you think I look strong? They go, yeah, you look really strong. I'll go, yeah, cool. Like sometimes, do know what I mean? Like do you think that like you do sort of, you know, whether or not you... you know like I don't I mean I don't care like mostly about like aesthetics and I sort of like have worked quite hard to remove I say like I operate from a from a place of like body neutrality for everybody and myself but that's not to say that I don't understand that these things are complex and like people come wanting aesthetic goals of course yeah because you want to push change yeah look amazing. It can be like that shows the work I've put into this particular thing. It's very different. stand in front of the mirror and I do this and I go, oh yeah, crap. You know, like, of course I do. I'm like, what are you doing? I'm like, I have got big arms and big shoulders. I can push 60 kilos over my head and I look like it as well. Mmm, and that is so cool because not many people can do that if you're like women really so like this whole like I don't want weights to make me feel bulky I think you know what let's just get bulky but you know you know what I heard there are people pushing debulking like debulk it reformers' palates, people? Is it? I heard about that and I just thought, oh man. Women lose bone mass as we get older. And if we do not lift weights and we do not look actively to improve that, we will be more susceptible to injury if we fall over. We will be more susceptible to ending up in hospital because we aren't able to support our body to just exist. it's this and it's skinny, skinny talks come back. And I think all the stuff, the people who've been influencing the appearance and like what is attractive to men most of them are all in this network of people that probably need to not be around anymore because of it's so wrong everything is connected and wrong and it's scary so it's really damaging, it? you know, again, it's a fine example as like why, you know, PTs like us need to exist because regardless of whether or not we... em of how we look or whatever. We're evidence based. We are always open to learning and understanding and changing our minds on things. I think there are a lot of PTs that just refuse full stop to kind of learn and grow. yeah, think I do think your people will find you, right? Like your clients will find you. All my clients are aligned with me. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. there'll be someone else, whether it's PT or client, there'll be someone else for someone else and that's okay. yeah, we just need to make sure that the people who doing it right can stay in the industry. And I think that's where this is going to be so powerful is a place where you don't have to struggle alone. Actually, we get it and we still have the same challenges. So what's next for the PT there, then? What's the plan? Also, I want to get really like eight members. That's what I would really like. So it's 25 quid a month. And that basically is, I suppose, to start with, it's a bit of admin time on my part to set things up. So I need to create the kind of directory pages that need to grow and develop and become a thing. And then it is gonna be a bit of like shaping what it looks like over. the time. think there is definitely something in the website aspect. I think that's very important, but it's a lot of work for me. So that's something that's in my mind that will come. And then it's one of these things like I'm not sure where it's going to go and what it's going to be, but I just know that there's this need for it. An event, yes, it's just events are so challenging to organize from an accessibility perspective. And I know it's like, think with the type of people often, you know how you said you can go to an event but you're a bit nervous? It's like that but on steroids sometimes for people. And so yes, I would love to, I think there'll probably be something, but low pressure, chilled and just not like a big thing. I think there will be, maybe it'll be like co-working days more so than an event, at least to start with. think that's a good idea. because then we can all work on our businesses together and sort of talk about these things. But I think in the long-term goal is to have it where we have experts come and talk about X and come and demo X or whatever, because actually we want to not just live in our little bubble of this is the people and we learn from each other, but actually like who can we bring in that will help us expand and develop our knowledge as well. So yeah, that's. That's my vision, I think. And yeah. And I think, you know, there was something to be said for like, obviously, before and afters, we know that they are harmful for the most part, right? The research tells us that. But I think it's probably also worthwhile being clear that like fat loss doesn't have to be like bad. You know, it's about the individual standing in front of you like, is this the right thing for them? em And your responsibilities as a coach to kind of like screen for eating disorders and that sort of thing. But you know, I think there's something around em like having em even like trusted fat loss coaches that you can kind of refer out to and go like fat loss is not something that I'm ever going to really, I'm just not that interested in it personally. But if it's, if the person comes to me and it's the right thing for them, I can go to a coach that is trusted and I know that they're going to treat that person well on their fat loss journey. You know, so I think I just, yeah, I just kind of wanted to kind of put that in there because I don't want this to come across like, we think all fat loss is bad because it isn't, it just is Yeah. And I think for me, it's like, sorry to interrupt, but for me, it's like, I know that when I, mean, even let's go six months ago, I was heavier body weight than I am now because my training is good right now. And I've got, you know, it's good. And I'm not stupid in the sense of where, like people's weight changes. So I'm losing weight. It's just not my goal, but a lot of people can't actually understand that. They think that weight loss must be your goal and then all the other things happen. It's like, no, but it's not because it's everything else. This just happens as a by-product. But I think like it is almost taking the stigma away from like, yes, I did a podcast with em Holly, can't remember her last name and she's a weight loss coach and like she's safe though. She's a safe person. autonomy and it's like, isn't just like numbers on scales. There's so much more to it. And I think that there is power in being able to refer people to the right person. So it's that safety thing. Like we just want safe people. And the network directory will probably expand where you have your PTs who are not fat loss coaches. But then we have other professionals that maybe have a slightly different directory, but who are safe. And that's the key. Yeah. Pelvic floor experts, physios, like... those sort of things because it's so important and it's a whole body approach. So yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you Claire for coming on and chatting. You're so welcome. I sure we'll do another one at some point. So cool. And anyone who's listening, thanks. And if you'd like to join the network, have a look in the show notes, because I'll pop in the application form and I do vet them. You can't just join it if you pay the money. It doesn't work like that. It has to be aligned. And I have rejected someone on a couple of things. So, you know, please apply if you'd like to, we can have a chat. And until next time, stay you, keep showing up and yeah, just focus on metrics that work for you. Right, that's the key. Bye. Bye.