Powering Tomorrow - Climate Tech's Energy Revolution

Welcome to the unDavos Summit - A community-organized series of interactive panels, talks, and networking taking place in Davos, Switzerland - and online - in parallel to the World Economic Forum’s Annual Meeting 20-24 Jan 2025.

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• Democratizing Davos: We open the doors to diverse voices and ideas, breaking down traditional barriers to participation.
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Join us for an insightful panel discussion titled "Powering Tomorrow: Climate Tech's Energy Revolution." In a time where climate solutions are more critical than ever, this session will explore pressing questions surrounding the energy demands of the future. With electricity consumption surging and millions lacking access, we need to understand how to fast-track a sustainable energy mix that satisfies both current and future needs. Our panel will delve into the challenges and opportunities presented by renewable sources, nuclear technology, and the potential continued role of fossil fuels in bridging supply gaps over the next decade.

Panelists include:

Sandra Trittin - Founder & CEO @ Futurize Energy
David Hamilton Nichols - Investor and Advisor @ David Hamilton Nichols, Inc.
Abby Ross - CEO @ The Resiliency Company
Stefano Olibe

Moderator:
Scott Wharton - CEO @ Tandem PV

Scott Wharton, our esteemed moderator, brings a wealth of experience from leading innovative companies and initiatives aimed at revolutionizing solar technology. His insights will guide a discussion that covers crucial topics like the future of energy from non-carbon sources, the role of software in shaping energy demand, and the transitional needs for fossil fuels.

Don’t miss out on the opportunity to witness industry leaders tackle these pressing questions and offer strategies for driving trust and sustainability in climate tech.

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Transcript

Powering Tomorrow - Climate Tech's Energy Revolution - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohKl3EC-qJs

Transcript:
(00:01) [Music] back and out that would be great so uh I think we've had some great panels this morning we've talked about decarbonization we've talked about um what's happening if we go past 1.5 degrees uh this this panel I think is going to be a little bit more solution oriented because we talk about energy and specifically where we are and what the different Energy Solutions are going to be and um so what I'm going to do is introduce the panel um and I'll actually have you guys introduce yourself briefly so why don't we start with with you okay so
(00:45) hi okay is it working no I need to press button up no ah perfect so hi my name is Sandra um Trine I'm actually here from Switzerland and I'm a Serial own R preneur in the clean tech space so I have several startups that I'm running um especially focused in the energy space so it's about connecting different kind of assets on a software platform and aligning the consumer Demand with the needs of the Grid it's also called viral power plants probably some of you have heard that phrase at one point in time I have several board seats in funds
(01:25) investment funds but also other Tech startups and I have a Consulting platform for independent energy consultants in case anyone is looking for some support in that topic do ever find people that don't aren't looking for money no my name is David Hamilton Nichols I'm from the United States and I'm an investor in companies that are solving some of the world's biggest problems in multiple sectors as far as renewable energy goes my greatest interest lies in companies that are in niches that are not as explored for example distributed
(02:09) generation and solving the problems that the middle markets rather than you you've seen rooftop solar and you've seen these huge projects in the middle of nowhere so that's an example of what I would say is finding somewhere in that middle that is less tapped Abby hi I'm Abby Ross um I am an entrepreneur first in travel then education and Healthcare um and I love uh find building businesses that have real solutions to seemingly impossible problems uh right now climate is one of those um and I created the resiliency company
(02:45) ultimately to help adapt our infrastructure to the fact that Civilization has had a stable climate for the past 12,000 years and now we don't there are floods wildfires hurricanes extreme heat and we have to change all of our infrastructure because of that thank you so much so good morning my name is Stefan I'm French I'm actually Auto entrepreneur also um living in Brazil we developed we we choose to develop a solution for businesses to make them uh an automatic solution based on AI um to produce ESG reports and uh a better accounting
(03:25) perfect governance on automatism so AI is supporting us by scanning all the laws all the time and just adapting all the programming so the entrepreneurs are able to adapt um on the um constant evaluating situation by governments and Etc so we we just offer a permanent solution easy access and obviously much reliable uh Solutions so this is fully governance stuff on climate situation so thank you okay thank you for all of you and I forgot to introduce my myself I'm Scott Wharton I'm the CEO of a company called tandem PV and we are a Next
(04:03) Generation solar panel maker so we're making a panel that's 30 to 40% more efficient and ultimately better and cheaper than the ones today and and we're working on bringing the supply chain from China which is today in the mid 90s perc um back to the United States um that's one of the things I'm doing um so I want to set the frame for the panel with a couple of things so one is um we talked there's a lot of discussion about Ai and energy so I I think there's clearly we're going to need a lot more energy so I don't think we need to set it up with
(04:33) AI needs more let's just say that's a fact and then we can talk about how much more uh and then I also just want to share I I confirmed some of the statistics on energy for uh 2024 so I used chat GPT this morning and uh in the US in whoops in 2024 already um 80% of the new energy added in 2024 was solar and batteries it was about 60% of all new energy came from solar 20% from batteries 133% from wind so we're already at more than 90% um adding renewable energy capacity now that's not the overall capacity but that's the US so for fun
(05:10) what I want to do is in teing this office like that's the us but what about China because we know China is the world's biggest emitter and has about a third of the energy and what was fascinating it it was the same was actually the same ratio about 60% solar uh a little bit more in batteries um and wind and in nuclear uh gas and coal and everything less than 10% last year and just one other stat on solar and China um last year they deployed 300 gws of solar solar power that's more than the United States has deployed in the entire
(05:44) 68 years of the history of deploying solar just giving order of magnitude so just setting that as a framework because we're going to talk about we're going talk about where the future talk about where we are so why don't we start with a question maybe Rapid Fire for all of you in the next 10 years um not that far out how much more electricity we going to need and I asked that with the caveat that it used to be we were flat to not growing at all everybody here D saying we need a l more Ury how much so I can give you uh one fact that
(06:12) I also WR this morning actually not on jetp but uh but online which is that by 2030 in Ireland onethird of the energy consumption will purely come from data centers right and also if we look at the different areas of electrification you have transport you have building you have the consumer himself like all of us right with all our mobiles and stuff and then we add uh Additionally the data centers so even if we increase efficiency as well tremendously I would say it will for sure increase by 20% 20 in 10 so 10 years 20% I would think with
(06:50) the data centers and the electrification of the transport all right so we have the first person who threw a marker down 20 d i will actually go much higher I spoke with a couple of my Founders in the energy sector who are very plugged into things going on and I would say anywhere between the two of them I got two to three times the amount we have uh now and note that it took us 150 years to get to the energy production we are at now so to double or triple that in a short time frame is a tremendous undertaking however we are in the
(07:29) beginning of what I would call an AI energy arms race uh which For Better or Worse is going to create a lot of disruption in uh in our lives as uh energy is needed for that and a certain area we might see some destabilization destabilization in some areas that may not have enough energy may have some blackouts this so we need to get all the sources of energy we can because that curve of the data center and AI is going to hockey stick so I would I'll be the contrarian to your 20% and say we might see as high as double or triple the
(08:10) amount needed whether we get there or not is a different question but if we don't it causes has some destabilizing influences okay double or triple happy uh McKenzie report says 3x by 2050 so what do you think in the next 10 years then next 10 years I think we're looking at one and a half one and a half so 50% increase yeah so and one of the important things when we talk about how hungry for energy AI is is if we don't think about where we are building these uh you know data centers and grids we're going to have a major problem swapping
(08:46) kind of one resource for another which is water cooling is required so being smart about the overall energy grid the stack and the location that we're putting these things is really important to how we adapt to a future that requires more Tech Technology Energy Stan what do you think so my thought is really based on the country where I live at the moment which is Brazil um by fact we know that in the state of Sara which is in the northeast of Brazil we've got the third biggest solar Park produced by Chinese uh being
(09:18) installed at the moment and the plan is to install the biggest solar park in the world there too in the next few years the investment on sustainability and mainly power um by hyrogen by the way also which is a big subject there um is something that um involve about 30 billion investments in the next 5 years so my thought uh in terms of energy 50% is the minimum this is what I think I really believe we will need much more than that because I live there first of the year I live in the best area of the city where I live which
(09:56) is foral in case we did not have energy for the new year so this is just giving you an aspect of the situation there and based on deel uh which is a specific military stuff from us uh the population in Brazil is growing so we would probably require much more energy than supposed to okay I'm going to come in at 75 just because I think we're uh the US is now growing at about 6% so it's 4% more than historical averages and if you think about Brazil and other non well non ACD countries it's going to probably need a lot more power this to me um well
(10:35) we have to understand that Brazil at the moment produce 90% of its energy it's a clean energy already so just to give an example on gas situation of petroleum and things like that Brazil is one of the country which which since the 1970s is using alcohol as a fuel 70% of the um car park is accepting U alcohol instead of gas gasoline so in terms of energy um we are also with the company um my startup the startup I'm found for we have very specific agreement with stum and international uh situation regarding the carbon credit which is in fact irx
(11:16) based on solar panels so what we observe is that nobody is complying yet but now we have to comply so the the power the amount of energy we need is far to be at the level we need okay so we're going to need you want to jump in yes what what I really find interesting and I also join your numbers in the long run is it's all about the execution right and since you were asking for 20 like for 2035 right um I think this is in the end the most interesting question on one side how quickly do we get the data centers
(11:54) deployed but also how quickly do we get the grids adapted and how quickly get do we get the addition energy Supply so this is exactly the point uh where I wanted to to to also point out um what I I got my own solar Park in Brazil um it's built since four months I'm still not connected to the grid because uh they they did not do what they were supposed to do so we have an issue with the main power companies which are not just uh liking us trying to help you know what I mean yeah crazy situation yeah what I'd like to do now is go
(12:28) through each of the different uh energy sources let's talk about what our predictions are for each of them and we can start with the now the incrementally largest solar panels so we already estblished that it's about 80% incremental both in the US and China and many other places but that's only incremental that's not on the base load um obviously there are some limitations where the sun only sign shines during the day and batteries are getting better but what is the prediction moving forward in the next I'll keep again 10
(12:54) years because I think it's a reasonable Horizon for um how much solar will grow in be part of that mix do you think it will continue to be this 80% will it go up or down 80% is already pretty high and I think for each of these questions we don't need each of you to answer so maybe some of you can jump in and then we'll go back and forth who wants it uh the use cases in which solar is deployed I think will shift you know as we have more weather related events solar is so good because of its micro grid capacity um and its ability to
(13:25) provide critical Services uh you know during during times of erupt uh solar is also as a source I think the quickest to adapt to change you know when when we have extreme heat events uh a lot of times in places like Arizona and California solar panels will go down because they heat up too high we've invented you know paint to make sure that they don't overheat so I think as an energy source because of some of the nimbleness and the adaptation and the ability to be local uh we will find that we've we find the best use case for
(13:59) solar and kind of nail in on where that where that sits in the energy grid I would add that that is uh how much solar continues to grow is subject and dependent to how much we improve the costs on battery technologies and the production on battery technologies because solar is very useful and is very Nimble as uh she said but but we are going to need to see and I think we have the potential to see quite an improvement and a curve also on the battery technologies so B batteries in the last 10 years have come down 70% so I think that's part of
(14:37) the benefit provided that continues and we also get some different uh Technologies there do you think it will continue and uh what do you think about also it's not just about short-term storage for the energy it's also about medium and longterm do you have a view on that well on the I'm not as a much an expert on the uh short and long-term versus long-term storage aspects of that so is anyone else here on that well what I've seen on the market uh is a new kind of batteries based on scand and I because I live once again in Brazil in
(15:10) Northeast we've got a lot of you have a lot of sand I think that might be a very interesting solution so and it's a it's a very powerful um uh uh securing energy staff battery and it's clean so yeah yeah probably to add on that I think on the short-term storage and the local storage for example on residential housing for sure we will see a further decrease and then interestingly currently we are also sitting on one of the biggest storage capabilities that we have which is water storage here in Switzerland you have all the water dams
(15:46) Etc and even though they are not easy to deploy everywhere right because uh in Brazil in certain kind of areas might be also easier to go with a sand option but we have to think also in the way of storing energy as we have it already yeah I'm just curious how many in the audience have heard about perov skites one but you're my wife so you know it's kind of cheating anybody else I'll just add in that because that's one of the things that my company is working on it's a Next Generation solar technology that um
(16:19) we basically take an ink there's no rare earth metals or minerals it's one micron thick and uses about 10% of the energy of current silicon so we're commercializing that now start selling next year I think that's part of the next generation of I think the the current solar panels are already very mature and this will just drive it one level further just adding into the the thought mix of where it's going I the other thing I'd add about solar it's it's and batteries they're probably the only things that are actually very
(16:45) scalable and that you can make them in a factory like you don't make fossil fuels in a factory nuclear takes a long time to produce and it's scalable and that I think if you were in the panel here earlier they said 900 gaw of capacity already in place which we can make every year I would add you know what you're saying on solar versus nuclear and some others nuclear although at some point down the line could be a very viable Solution that's not in the next 10 years is there the cost Associated also certain regulatory things if you're
(17:18) looking at differ Siz reactors and new technology and that we are not going to see that solving the problem in the shorter term it could it could be great way down the line but where we have the biggest issues in the energy transition is within the next 10 years or so that is when we have all the increase in demand due to Ai and data centers and other increasing demand so if we're depending on that to be the solution it's too far out so we need that something in that interim so H how how far out is too far out well in my
(17:54) opinion it's going to be 10 to 15 years be with the because of regulatory and other factors before we'd see that and we are going to see a lot of increase in demand in the meantime yeah do you mind yeah okay so there is another situation I've noticed on the market so in the south of Brazil you've got iguasu Falls right uh which is a very big production uh plant actually this is shared between Argentina Paraguay and Brazil we are we are in a conflict we have too much energy and some companies don't sell the energy they just lose energy the energy
(18:31) so there is still a political and economical situation that is not resolved whereas the energy exist and we don't provide it is is there nuclear energy in Latin America no no Hydro only Hydro but no nuclear today there is only one plant uh in Brazil for nuclear and then actually we are doing their ASG so okay are there any any panelists who are enthusiastic about nuclear who think it's going to contribute a lot to our needs in the next 10 years I prefer the panels but if we observes it on the sustainable side on the roof it's much
(19:05) better it's already built instead of cutting trees and planting solar Ps you know what I mean yeah so uh science and regulation aside the other challenges that we'll hit is you know we're especially in the US we're not great at financing Innovation you know everything is first of a Kind so recognizing that there's going to be a whole another set of delays on how you drive investment into that you know energy source that even after we hit all the other hurdles what looks like to get done in places and scaled and connected
(19:39) to the grid yeah add to that last year at Davos Oliver Stone did a movie showing and uh I had the privilege of seeing it it was about the positive aspects of nuclear energy which was a surprise for Oliver Stone and he talked about how we should be embracing nuclear except he left one thing out at which I asked him at the end how much does it cost and think the problem with nuclear is it's it's usually about five times the cost wow and um it's going to take probably another 10 years to build this thing so the like the Three Mile Island
(20:08) in the US it's probably a one-off there aren't a lot of nuclear plants just sitting around waiting to be turned back up so I think that's part of the challenge that and then the uh small nuclear modu reactors they're also very expensive and they're they're not contributing a lot to energy yes and I think we also have to consider the consumer right because you need also the acceptance let's say no to build to build something um and if you see here in Switzerland 40% of the energy Supply comes from nuclear yeah um but I would
(20:39) not like to build another one here because I think you will wait at least 20 years even for wind farm it takes you already six to 10 years um for one windmill and I don't want to know how long that might be with a nuclear do you do you I'm sure people would like to have a nuclear power plant in their backyard though for sure for sure if you come by train you might sign me up how do I get a nuk in my back I would love to add up on not in my backyard so because I'm from France I was born there we've got something like 45 or 50
(21:09) nuclear plant there there is only one company in the world which recycle and this is a French company we we actually export it in some countries which is not very fine and in some cases we are burying it under parking lots Supermarket stuff in France so personally I'm not in favor of nuclear so France clearly the leader in nuclear power I know when is the last time they built a new nuclear power plant you are asking me too much okay I'm not living does anybody here know that the answer that not when the last one was built but
(21:44) currently many of them are going uh under maintenance and actually that is putting now the Energy System quite under stress locally interesting and how it's solved then is again with the consumer um and the consumer devices in a positive way way but um we should also not forget that once everything is built and if they go on maintenance then they normally get dispatched from the grid for one or two years yeah um that situation is a much more likely a politic issue right so that's that's fish and nuclear what about Fusion so
(22:18) there are many companies here at Davos I many startups getting so they're getting funded what do we think about their ability to impact the next let's call 10 years their startup s they're take how many times does a startup end up having something have mass adoption in the near term I answer your question you say how often does a startup predict something and it pushes out I was going to say never never happens well once again econom economics and politics are in the middle you know so but I think all of us would we would
(22:50) like to have Fusion right it would be good for the environment nobody's against it it's just again it's not a near-term solution yeah I think I would say for Fusion before we move on um I think all of us would like it and even if it did come in the near term which you probably won't they nobody's talked about how much this thing is going to cost and if you've seen how complicated a fusion machine is it it does not look like something that is cheap so all right one we move there was who was the person in the audience asked
(23:17) about geothermal me okay I'm I told you I would bring it up um what do we think about geothermal let's talk about geothermal and wind so on my point of view wind is very interesting but we just need to change 15 years ago I was facing um with a with some startup from Switzerland they developed wind turbines uh on magnetic stuff so no requirements of oil for you know for the mechanic part this company never got up there is another interest basically so I love the wind stuff but it depends really how we apply it and in which
(23:58) region because it's it's it's very good and at the same time it distract a little bit the environment so um my point of view on wind is U why don't we put it in the sea this is the best place to well we know there's some certain person who doesn't like that putting wind in the sea we won't mention who that is and I would add what do we do with all the wind uh turbines when we're done with them because that Pro that is a problem that has not been solved yet and that's a lot of waste when they're uh from them when we're
(24:33) done with them so I think that's really a regional question right um I mean with the Wind Farm it's the same no one is really liking to look at a Wind Mill or anything in their backyard um but if you go offshore for example and I know there are other groups who don't do not like to go on offshore wind right but then it has all of a sudden a huge acceptance on the thermal space and coming here from Switzerland that's also quite quite specific but it's really gaining attractiveness um but there coming back to your initial question you have the
(25:11) cost right um building as an end consumer a geothermal heating at home is around 70,000 Swiss Franks 70 I mean who the hell can afford that in the short run right and there are almost no financing Solutions and if you go that that then on a big scale it might work better but I think there we have to work a lot on the getting the cost down yeah I would love to add uh something on that one so the geothermal I'm not very good with it but I think we really require a difference of temperature which is not really possible
(25:47) in every in every place in the world but many it's possible still there is we've got 70% of the water on sea and it's moving so there are many solutions that we can deploy without disturbing the environment and use the power of the Waves so here's my take on all of those 10 years ago uh geothermal wind wave technology they were all interesting they were getting funded a lot but there was a tsunami that figury hit them and that's solar because the fact that solar became down 90% I think make it all these Technologies looked viable especially
(26:23) wind was cheaper than solar but it's not anymore I think that's one of the challenges that all these technologies have they work um but as we know part of deploying energy it's all about having the lowest cost solution I think that's where we're seeing solar and batteries jump to preeminence not because people are you know there there are benefits as we talked about it but really is all about economics at the end of the day I think that's the challenge that I see with geothermal and wind and I I saw startup uh founder pitching a a wind
(26:51) sorry a a wave technology um and he said we we aspire to get to 10 times more expensive than solar in the next five years and I was like that didn't like that pitch okay great um let's let's go back to fossil fuels because clearly some of the mix that we have today is is fossil fuels um and there are people building more coal plants natural gas um maybe a derivative of that of hydrogen um what is our thinking on moving F and then I think there were some people talking in the panel earlier about how uh people
(27:27) are looking at fossil fuels not because they care about clean tech one way or another they just want to make money that is the world we live in um what are your thoughts about the future in the next 10 years of where gas and coal and fossil fuels will fit into our Energy Mix who wants to start um I can take a start there so originally I'm German so we managed the exit from the nuclear power right and normally coal should also follow at one point in time um which I think in the long run is the right is the right path but what we need
(27:58) to see is that it's still too cheap right it's too cheap and therefore too competitive and you see all the big companies like a shell total others right who have heavily invested also into Renewables also into new consumer solutions they are all pulling the plug on that and why is that because they can make still enough money on the fossil fuels and in the end they have to run a company and they need to let's say also show their returns to their investors and this is mainly the reason why they are saying well I will go on
(28:34) with the fossil fuels interestingly enough if there is a second threat coming like we had with the energy crisis uh some years ago then all of a sudden it's all around Renewables again but then security the security threat is overlaying the return on investment but in the short run I don't see that they are really getting out of that I would say that we are going to still see some usage of uh of fossil fuels whether that's uh oil natural gas or coal we're going to still see that especially given the uh that the
(29:09) incoming Administration in the United States uh is more favorable to to some of that I do believe we do need all the energy we can get and preferably that is clean and renewable energy uh now you sort of alluded to something I was going to say I think you were alluding to it uh uh that we can't see a a case where like you get rid of all the nuclear like Germany did decommissioning and and then suddenly you run out of your source of of of imported uh uh fossil fuels like we saw with when Russia invaded Ukraine with
(29:46) all of that so we need to make sure we are getting renewable systems in place because we can't get rid of energy sources and then perhaps lose our only remaining source so I think that's an important thing to consider but we need to be really focusing on that transition the question is will we that's uh and I don't have the answer to that one okay fossil fuels have a couple advantages that are tough to argue with one is the dependability so 80% of grid outages in in um the United States is uh from weather related events from local uh
(30:26) local outages uh that just aren't Ed to deal with it so the and if we don't have a Dependable reliable source of energy consumers will uh you know lose a lot of heart for for the decarb and transition effort um the other thing is that we've had Decades of practice on how to finance fossil fuels we know how to build it's a commodity we know how to price it we know how to trade it we know how to make money on it um so we need some more at bats with these new clean energy uh uh opportunities to demonstrate the opportunity to make
(31:00) money uh to I think ultimately shift the market to replace fossil fuels um but until we actually have the level of reliability for consumers that we've had with fossil fuels I think it's going to be tough to make a totally clean clean break so just to add up on that one and I totally agree with what you just said and to take what you said at the beginning total or whatever the company we we mentioned they would prefer to um to invest in a sustainable plant to clean their ass up sorry for that um instead of changing technology because
(31:37) it cost too much at the moment so until we find new technologies um coil is still going on so yeah I guess I just add to that I think by 2035 you're going to see The Battery Technology become much more robust in terms of medium longterm storage because right now the whole discussion we're having around fossil fuels is around what if solar is not iable the wind's not blowing but if you have batteries that can be working on the man in a in a second or microsc then that kind of alleviates that but if you look in the next 10 years in the
(32:08) interim um probably natural gas is a good um source for that I think by the way interesting natural gas what that's the best marketing of all time it's methane well right nothing natural about it um and then I would say U coal part of the problem that I'm seeing is that you can't you you can't get a 20 or 30y year loan to finance a coal plant because nobody believes they're going to be around in 2045 2055 so coal is kind of dead natural gas can survive um but it seems to be where we uh so that we need that as an intern but hopefully
(32:41) batteries can if they're good enough can substitute for that I'll just add one more thing what I read for uh coal and natural gas plants is that they're really really good when you finance them if you could run them all the time and the problem with that is that when solar is the cheapest source and you're running in the middle of the day um these G gas and coal plants are becoming peers so once they go below 50% they're actually not economical and you need to shut them down so even the current plants probably many of them will be
(33:07) shut down because they're no longer economical and this is today not looking forward yeah I think probably adding to that there is an additional resource that we have not mentioned yet and that is is flexibility because we have currently just talked about the different sources of energy Supply but we can also align our Demand right and that comes exactly to your point that you just mentioned the wind is not always blowing sun is not always shining but instead of trying to solve the problem only from the supply side we can also solve it from
(33:38) the demand side and aligning both of them much better so that was my last question and then maybe we'll take one or two from the audience is about more about demand generation uh demand shaping software uh AI have to say it because we have to mention it once I love that one what everybody loves that word what's the role of that in shaping the our future of of energy in the next 10 years how if I if if I may well once again it will depend of which governments allowing um the regulation per country um if You observe the big
(34:11) company providing at the moment they are fighting to to don't let you enter the game so this is much more politic stuff than anything else once again in Brazil at the moment we are observing a change in the in the laws on the way we can provide energy to the GD and to the to the people um it might become a free market uh as it is kind of in Europe and that will change a lot because as I mentioned a bit earlier we cannot redirect some uh energy from Paraguay for example because it's true ship it doesn't go with with Brazilian stuff or
(34:48) Argentinian stuff um but then when these Market are open then we can redirect energy and yes AI is help and we are we have on at the startup we have I'm working with and founder of um we are ready we know how to redirect and organize that so we can do it the limit is not from us I think the limit are much more from politics at the moment my point of view okay um we we've touched on a couple Innovations around micro grids and storage and I think both both of those are the things that will ultimately increase demand for consumers to
(35:33) experience energy without just clean energy without disruption and that will be one of the main tipping points that um ultimately people won't think about the difference between dirty and clean they just know they have power to do the things they want to do to El operate in the world um so that's what we need to be driving towards is you know consistency and and uh finding the right energy stack based on who you are and where you live I would add to that that this is a very complex problem which until now could not readily be solved the micro
(36:13) grids and being able to get energy from various sources that various times a day that when the The Sun Ain't shining or the wind ain't blowing you uh and and take all those variables into account we could not do that before now that we AI is coming into the picture there is some real hope for a lot of that and I would add on the political side of it I would add the uh uh United States in here I I think we need to see more of this in rural areas and the micro grids in those areas because there's a lot of large
(36:51) rooftops there that this can come from and those are in the areas in the US that are likely to when there's a lot of demand for AI they're likely to get the short end of that stick and uh and you're going to cause some political problems if particularly I'm talking us but I imagine elsewhere that's similar if you don't have uh production in those areas and have them benefit as well so I think AI makes so and other software Technologies make so much of this easier to solve we're not there yet but I'm optimistic in that
(37:30) regard there I so there I would like to add a bit more provocative we are there the solutions are existing right it's just that the utility does not earn a lot of money or does not know how to earn the money by adapting the demand to the supply they are only familiar with selling you the energy contract right and kilowatt hours but not how to sell you a saved kilowatt hour and that's the huge difference but we need that because we have an existing infrastructure and we need to add to that infrastructure all the distributed energy resources and
(38:06) they are coming because the consumers are building them up anyway right people are driving Teslas there are charge points being deployed people are going on geothermal heat pumps instead of normal gas um heating so it's coming anyway and the solution is there but now we need to get it out right from the panel before we heard there is enough money we have enough technology and now it's really make it happen do you need that utilities cooperate with you or them or do you think you could go and you and others can go around them do you
(38:39) need their help I think it's both I mean you see it in both ways right you see technology companies partnering with existing utilities then the the major challenge is that you need to be patient really patient and then you have the newcomers right on the panel before there was npal we we had uh octopus also talking on some uh panels right and they are the newcomers who build everything from scratch and they just have a different starting point and they can go quicker and I think it will be a mix in the long run okay um want why don't we
(39:12) take a question or two from the audience 12 years after and how how much did you know about the overage costs like what NOA what it and and I want to chengis inyes and IDE RS I so I went to a couple of of
(40:18) sessions this week where fusion power companies were talking and most of them were like we are going to have commercial Fusion in the early 2030s no that's are that's what we you're saying sooner than thatat okay yeah so all right let and uh and as we said earlier no no technology from a startup ever slips ever and how much is this plant going to cost roughly bilon $4 billion and what you said actually matches what we said you said you're first coming online 2035 that's that means that would not be Mass adoption so
(41:10) I so that's why I I like Fusion in the longer term but but in the middle in the near to Middle term H you're you're still agreeing with what we said on the timing my Isel so $4 billion for how much power no comments well at okay uh is there another question finair Department GE project which is looking at you transferology from gas into geep I also cons projectace which has a I've got some cards here they have they have a geothermal house in Europe and I'm also develop just want to
(42:20) make some I heard because of course I'm the subject and obviously passionate about it the report which I participated saying that they thought 15% of Prim electric energy could be GE by my IEX and the reason for that is that we can deploy the oil gas technology and the oil gas RS around the world and if you use theil and that's the and I just want to say the other thing is follow I think some was talking about the importance of natural gas as a low follow well everything that natural gas can do better and everything that
(43:13) can do can do better quicker faster without without uranium problem day and so and finally it's GE everywhere so although looking the the US putting money to this we're develop in the UK and in Taiwan and in Japan and it gives you geal security which is something that we definitely have before Russia invaded Ukraine because every single country can do this and it requ sandid and aoty so I think we all I think we all I think we all hope that happens so same question if Fusion is $4 billion dollar for a gigawatt what would
(43:58) be the in the 2030s what would be the equivalent for geothermal the LC are the0 which means that we can s it to California now's we are looking for those to come down to around 3 to Four Cents Kow in the next 5 to 10 years there is a project right now drilling into a volcano in oron and that project accessing 375 C water now 375 C almost half the efficiency of gas you'll see current y two Wells question what what cost what would be the cost for one G one G for example around 5,000 K and we expecting that to drop to
(44:55) close few years so start to comp Sol most Sol you got whereas with geothermal we're 247365 and we low and so I just wanted to ask you all to at least go to the geal o00 I'm actually not representing I just want to please just look at this seriously no one has mentioned it I asked you to mention it I I I promise you that I did and I did so I kept my promise czy not to talk about it because is right now we have so many gas yeah I imagine adopting existing infrastructure is going to be a lot cheaper than whole cloth building from
(45:42) scratch right yeah that will ruce question for you you say you're drilling into a volcano curious what that if that causes any destabilization or uh or safety issues or what the what the ramifications might so you SE in the you're still on the crust that's right you don't into the mag mag you just get close close enough to it to pick up the very and are there any particular ramifications of using those WS because we know we've seen things like with fracking people have talked about possibility for an increased
(46:25) earthquakes or when you retrofit and use that well technology do you see any particular issues uh geologically with that so I'll take a lot of time but one on that one one point people have been drilling drilling geothermal Wells into their own place they drill them into fractures into fults thinking that's the thing to do but if you drill into a fault and then you start pumping water through it guess what you lubricate the fault and the fult moves yeah that that's kind of what I was getting at but there's absolutely no reason to do that
(46:54) because the most interesting Rock to drill is Rock which is like granits which haven't moved for 4 billion years have no natural fractures in them and you just go into those natural natural natural radioactive natural nuclear reactors because they contain uum thorium and potassium that's where the heat comes from so you either go for magma or you go for deep geal into 's to have two G of electricity from geal that's great I think we may have time for one more question okay well uh what I would say first of all I think I want to say thank you to
(47:36) the panel I think we covered a lot of ground I think my takeaway from this is that uh even though there are a range of outcomes there's a lot of optimism where we might be in the next 10 years so it's not 30 or 50 years from now and we obviously have a lot of work to do as a as a society but uh um hopefully we we will get there so thank you to the panel thank you for all of you for coming and have a great day [Music]