For the Love of Play

Ep 1. Steve Biddulph: Everything That’s Good About Human Beings Came from Playfulness

• Playgroup Victoria • Season 1 • Episode 1

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"Everything that’s good about human beings came from playfulness..."

In Conversation with Steve Biddulph – Psychologist and Top-Selling Author

In our very first episode of For the Love of Play, we sit down with world-renowned psychologist, educator and best-selling author Steve Biddulph for a heartfelt and thought-provoking conversation.

Steve has spent his adult life helping families thrive, and his books on raising children - including Raising Boys and Raising Girls - have been embraced across the globe. In this wide-ranging discussion, we explore what it means to be human - and how kindness, a sense of belonging and joyful interactions shape our wellbeing from the earliest years. 

Steve shares powerful perspectives on parenthood, the preciousness of early childhood and how play has changed lives - and the world - for the better. 

About Our Guest

Steve Biddulph is a psychologist, educator and one of the world’s best-selling parenting authors. His work - including books, workshops and talks that champion compassion, empathy and playful connection - has touched millions of families.

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Episode Credits

Hosted by Mylie Nauendorf and Sinead Halliday.

Interview conducted by Sinead Halliday.

Edited by Jonathan Rivett.

Mastering by James North Productions.

Music by Selina Byrne.

And thanks to our little friends Toby and Adelaide for voicing the intro.

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SPEAKER_03:

Playgroup Victoria acknowledges the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and community. We pay our respects to them, their cultures, and to the elders past and present.

SPEAKER_00:

For the love of play! For the love of play, for the love of play.

SPEAKER_03:

For the love of play, an exploration of childhood, family, community, and belonging.

SPEAKER_01:

Don't worry about decorating your nursery for a baby. Look think about um building your village. Where are the other mums, where are the old ladies that'll be kind to you and look out for you and you look out for them? And so um it's har and it's hard because it's not built in anymore. And and if you're a bit shy, you might not be able to make a village. And so you have to reach out. If someone looks at you know at the playground, someone looks a bit shy, a bit hesitant. Go over and sit beside them and chat to them. Um they may turn up to be a lifelong friend, or at least you've improved their day.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm Miley from Playgroup Victoria, and I am joined by my colleague Sinead. Hello, Sinead. Hey Miley, great to be here. We are kicking off our very first episode today with an exciting and enriching discussion with the world's top parenting author, Steve Bidolf. Having both worked in the early years space for many years now, Sinead and I have heard Steve's name just mentioned on countless occasions. We've seen his name on the front cover of many books stored at our office. And I think any new parent would probably have a book by Steve on their shelf at home. So when we had the idea for recording this podcast, we knew that the first person we had to talk to was Steve.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and we love how Steve talks about the village and how it takes a village to raise a child, but it actually also takes a village to raise all of us. We all need a community around that. And Steve earlier this year wrote a new book called Wild Creature Mind, and it delves into the neuroscience that helps people transform anxiety and help them to lead a fulfilling life. And I just think in this day and age, everyone can benefit from this. And I think with his vast experience, his wisdom stretches out to so many different generations from the early years and up. So we're really lucky to have him.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, let's get into it. Here we go. Our first episode of For the Love of Play a Conversation with Steve Bidoff.

SPEAKER_02:

Steve, how great it is to speak with you today. Thanks for coming on our podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, Sinead, and lovely to talk to you and to everyone who ends up listening and everyone in play groups all around the country. It's really great to have a bit of time with you.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, alongside writing one of the of, if not the world's top-selling parenting books, Raising Boys, you and your wife founded Youth Line in the 1970s, a counseling phone service supporting young people. You created a program to help with youth unemployment. You've worked with many psychologists and researchers around the world to find ways to nurture children and families. You've raised awareness about refugees, climate change, and caring for the environment, while reaching thousands of people through your talks about family and indeed family well-being. In so much of your work, I recognize as striving to create a space for dignity and kindness among humankind. What have been your experiences about how people need to be able to feel their authentic self and share that with others?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. That's a very deep and philosophic question, Shaneda. And I was because you sent me a couple of the questions in advance, I was thinking about it. And I and I thought, well, if I looked at the covers of the books, like like the cover of I grabbed hold of a few, you know, like Raising Boys, and and there's a that every book's got a picture of children smiling and looking, um, usually with their arm around someone else. Raising boys has got a little boy with his little sister on his back, giving her a little piggyback. Um and and so you're right, um, there's a kind of feeling of lovingness which is is from is through everything that I do. And and because I think that um kindness and lovingness are our true nature. Um and if if I was thinking of play group members who've got quite young children, and what you would remember from having young children is it starts that first moment when you hold your baby in your arms, and that incredible life memory of, you know, and your babies, you've come through the delivery, whatever that's taken, and the whole thing of giving birth, and then suddenly there you are, and you're looking down at this little creature, and it's your heart just just goes, Oh, no, and it's it's a funny mixture, it's joy and relief and a bit of trepidation, I think, for many people. Like, what have I got myself into? Um, but there's this feeling of my heart is just melted, and dads, I think, have this a bit surprised, dads are a bit surprised by this because we're supposed we're trying to act rough and tough, and suddenly we just come completely un unraveled. It's looking at our child and our and our partner holding our child. Um but the dignity thing comes in too, because as soon as you look at a little baby, what you realize is oh, they're their own person, you know. Um, what a it's kind of a puzzlement or a question. I wonder what they're thinking, or I wonder what they're going to be be like. Um, because the whole journey of parenthood is this thing of getting to know your child. You know, we're not making, we're not manufacturing a child. Um we're kind of getting to know them. And who are they? And we and when they're two, we have to get to know them again and at five and at you know and at 17. It's always, who are you and who am I? And so the dignity is built in of sort of of you're separate to me. You have your own point of view, you have your own experience. I can't force mine onto you. But there's so much joy in listening. You know, the the I have little granddaughters. I love talking to them because they're just they make me laugh and they're fresh, and they're um, even when they're really cranky or something like that, there's this, it's like you can't help laugh because they're, you know, that little crankiness, um, as they're asserting their dignity and their point of view. And so I think you've yes, you've pinpointed something, Sinead, and it's it's those two qualities of um having a kind and loving attitude to yourself as well. And um and then uh extending that to other members of the human race. And because the world doesn't run on those principles mostly, it's a horrific world, particularly lately. Um it's very revolutionary and also very powerful. Uh, caring about people is a powerful thing, and it builds, you know, what playgroups do, for example, it builds a sense of us. Um, we know what's what, and we are together, we'll take care of each other, and um, we'll be tolerant and we'll be diverse and we'll be um caring. Um and I've always loved playgroups for that reason, that kind of feeling that you're back in the tribe and you've and you can belong and you can feel be your be yourself um and gain strength from that, but to go back out into the everyday world. So, yeah, does that make that that all make sense?

SPEAKER_02:

There's a lot in that. Uh, and I think that that's why we really wanted to include belonging as a part of this podcast. And I wonder how can we nurture those relationships and how can we carve out time in our lives for the shared experiences? And we're talking about being part of things like sporting clubs and play groups and saying hello to your neighbor in passing, having a sense of community, how does that provide some scaffolding to the more challenging aspects of everyday life?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yes. Well, when when you talk about community, my my my mind goes back, you know, I'm I'm 72 years old and um long, a long life. And but it started in a little town on the Yorkshire coast, and it wasn't a romantic kind of a town. It wasn't a sort of um like all creatures, great and small kind of town. That was a little bit out in the hills, that was a bit like that. But where we lived, you could smell the chemical factory over the back, and um, and there was a lot of industry and and times were hard. Um but also um all my extended family lived all around us, and so my grandma was down the road. If I was naughty at school, the headmistress at school would probably tell my grandpa, and my grandma there were no telephones, so my grandma would tell my mom, um, and my mom would sort of tell me that that's it, that she knew I was being naughty at school. Um, and now I think I was a pretty shy little quiet kid, and I wasn't usually in trouble, but there was this feeling like there was this ripples, you know, on Christmas, everyone walked over to your house through the snow. And um, and so you you kind of moved in this kind of uh cup cushioned and buffeted kind of of life. And uh at the same time it was rough. You could get beaten up in the street by other kids on the way home from school. You had to learn to, you know, um look after yourself. And and and you know, there were big industrial disputes with unions and miners and the police and and all kinds of drama that went with that the 60s, 50s and 60s in England, England. And my dad and granddad were union uh officials, and there was this feeling of we have to stick together um to because not everyone's, you know, otherwise we could, you know, you could starve, you could have all kinds of bad things happen. But when we came to Australia as migrants, I I didn't really understand this, but the belongingness disappeared for a time. And I particularly saw the impact on my mum, like because my dad had this work to go to, and that was very stressful, but it that's what he was doing. But my mum was uh, you know, would be I'd sometimes see her at the kitchen table crying, and and it was because she, you know, she missed her mum and her sisters and her friends back back in England. And um and now I'm glad we came, and our lives were so much better in the material sense, but it took a long time to regain community, and um, and so I think I came to value it. And and now I live in a kind of intentional community of of other households of people who look out for each other a lot. And we I returned to living in the village again. Um and and so when you live in the in the cities, I think you have to make your village, and and that's you know, don't worry about decorating your nursery um for a baby. Look, think about um building your village. Where are the other mums? Where are the old ladies that'll be kind to you and look out for you and and you look out for them? And so um it's hard, and it's hard because it's not built in anymore. And and if you're a bit shy, you might not be able to make a village, and so you have to reach out. If someone looks at you know at the playground, someone looks a bit shy, a bit hesitant. Go over and sit beside them and chat to them. Um, they might turn up to be a lifelong friend, or at least you've improved their day. Does it does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02:

It sure does. And thinking about those early formative experiences, particularly in the early years, how aware are children of the atmosphere, the feeling in the house. How do we create that stable footing for children to grow and feel safe?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, these are great questions, Sinead. And the first thing is it's something that I often used to say when I used to travel around the world doing my shows and my live talks. Um, a baby doesn't care if they live in a mansion or a tin shed. A baby, a little child, it doesn't even occur to them, you know, what it's what they care about though, is the the the emotional vibe of it. Um what the what the adult they they if you watch then they've done studies, little even in the little Prem babies in their the those little lunch boxes they put them in, you know, those those little cribs. And they track their eye movements. And if mum and dad are standing looking in through the sides of the crib, the baby's eye movements will track to mom's face and then to dad's face and back to mum's face. They are reading the emotional tone of how is mom, how is dad, and how are things between mum and dad. So they're already um and and that's what they attune their own um um emotional regulation to. Okay, things are good, I can be all right. And so, so a little kitty, and really right through to the teens, they're like a cork that bobs up and down on the waves of mum and dad's stresses. Now, I'm I'm putting myself in the shoes of someone listening to this right now on the podcast. Um this I'm thinking of you, the listener, right this minute. And because that's that sounds a bit scary because it's like, oh crap, you know, I've got to be um in a good place myself for my child. And so what I've concentrated on in the in recent times is how to how to settle yourself down. Um the the new book, which is called Wild Creature Mind, which we may not have time to talk about much today, but it's it's about getting back in touch with the part of you that is calm and that is steady and and peaceful. And and so you go because our brain, especially the left side of our brain, is very prone to prattling and it prattles and it rattles around and goes in circles, and our thinking just goes round and round and round. But if you go down into your body um and you feel down into your tummy and into your heart and your throat all the way down, right down to where you're sitting on the chair, then straight away you can sort of a deep breath just happens. It just comes as you do that. Because the, you know, I if I do it, I've I've been talking too fast and need to breathe a bit slower. And and what you'll find when you do that is you you'll notice, oh, I am a bit anxious. And where is it? Oh, it's in my stomach or it's in my heart. And if you if you send a friendly thought down to yourself, you know, okay, heart, I am making you race too fast. So, okay, tummy, I am kind of rushing as or I am fretting too much, calm down into my body, then what you'll notice is that you're, and I can see you doing this, Sinaid, as we're talking. You're kind of settling into your body. It's just a natural response. Um and and your body will calm you. And so don't look for calmness, you know, on the outside. I mean, it's lovely if you can walk on the beach or, you know, sit in a cathedral on your own or sit on a mountaintop or watch the sunset. Of course, that's brilliant. Um, but in the midst of life, um, we have to go to the into enter our body, and our body will steady us because it's kind of it's very capable. It's a wild creature, and a wild creature is very capable at knowing right right now I need to be angry and and fierce. Right now I need to rest. Um right now I need to um just sink into the sorrow of something that's been sad today, and I just need to feel that and let it be there and not fight against it. I'll be all right, it'll come through. And so um that way, what happens then? We we in the technical language, we downregulate. Um we s you know, our breathing slows and our our heartbeat slows. What happens is that is that a child who's in the same room as us will also downregulate. It'll be an automatic process. Uh and so they will sense because they're they're um even a one-day-old child can it's they found its focus. A one-day-old child, it's the focusing distance of its eyes are exactly the distance from breast to face. So if you're holding the baby, they can see your face. That's the clearest thing in there. Everything else is a blur. Um, but they see your face. And and if your face is looking in, gazing into their eyes, and your face looks you know settled and happy, then they will just go, ah. And uh, everything's right in the world. And so um so we can bring this peaceful connection to to our children. And I've completely forgotten the question now, but that that's that was the question.

SPEAKER_02:

You've answered. You've answered the question and more. So thank you. I often think about the Plato quote you can learn more about someone in an hour of play than a year of conversation. And I think about that quote because I often see a different side to people when they're immersed in some sort of activity and that youthful play that I watch my nephews do organically, and they're so good at drawing us back into that. How do you think as adults and even teenagers, living in this technologically saturated existence where we're constantly bombarded by the noise and rewiring our brains with all this short information?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

How can we get back to a place where we are reconnecting with our bodies and our true selves and can just be immersed in that space where good things grow because you're you're relaxed?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. I think that um you're you're totally right. Play play is the natural state of human beings. That's how everything we you know, we invented tools and we invented, you know, everything, medicine and and and how to build safer houses and and and and make beauty and and music and and everything that's good about human beings uh came from playfulness. And um and playfulness is something we do when we feel safe. And and so, for instance, I when when people send their children to school and because I'm written a lot about boys' mental health and making the world work better for boys, a boy has a testosterone kind of a um psychology, and and and that's uh uh from a hunter-gatherer kind of you know, origins. Um and and so a testosterone psychology looks for danger um and looks for for the for safety and and how to manage those those kinds of things. Now, um, so what we say is, for instance, if you if a little boy has a school teacher, it has to be someone who loves boys and is comfortable around boys and their energy and their kind of slightly over-the-top wildness and and enjoys that and doesn't mind that. Um and so when that's the case, then the little boy senses, you know, I've got the little boys fall in love with their primary school teacher and they they they think she's amazing, and they want to do anything, and they can learn and they can relax, and they can, you know, uh take risks with you know their work, you know, have a go at something that, you know, reading to the class or or doing a drawing, because they're in a safe space. And um, and so conversely, when people do play, when they do sport or um anything creative, um it tends to move, we we naturally feel all of a sudden we we're in the flow. This is why sport is is such a big part of modern human life. Um because it's the kind of memory of of the being the team, working on it, you know, it might have been hunting a woolly mammoth or uh facing down a cave bear that wants its cave back. And and the men and the women are uh work together so beautifully, you know, to to everyone doing their part. Um the littlest six-year-old grabbing a f a flaming log out of the fire and waving it in the sky as it's fighting off this bear, and everyone's everyone's in it together. Um and so um it's a kind of a um, it's also it there's some lot of research that this is an answer to anxiety, that when we're playing, we're not anxious. Um, and we forget ourselves. And this is very important because what you the point you made, Shaanaid, and and I could talk to you for hours because you do your homework and you you've thought very widely. Um, the modern world, it it's called it atomizes us, or it it makes us into little, it makes each person a little fragment that's all alone. Um so if if you have a daughter and she lives on the internet and it sadly has become sort of captured by social media and things like that. Her experience, and I describe this to my audience, it's like being alone on in a wasteland where you can't see very well that the dark's coming down, and but there are wolves stalking out in the dark around you. Um is terrifying. And it's and it's very, very cold and lonely. Um that is the worst place for a human being. And so um we have to build back around ourselves this feeling of we're not um, I don't, you know, someone asked me a couple of weeks ago, how did I want to be remembered? And I don't even want to be remembered. I think that's an ego thing. And and so it starts to make you kind of me, me, me, you know, I'm so cool and I'm so wise, and it mucks up what you're doing. Um and so I I'm happy that I lived in a time when we turned the course of history. Yeah, we got things sorted out, we solved climate change, we we stood up to fascism, um, we remembered how to love our children in an industrial time that wasn't doing that very well. Um and so when you're happy, you forget yourself. And conversely, when you forget yourself, you're happy. And so you know if you're at playgroup and you're making sure that someone else is having a good time, that they feel welcome, that the toys are cleaned up, um, someone else's kitty is m is played with so that they can quietly have a cup of coffee because they've got a few tears in their eyes, you know they need to talk. Um it's self self-forgetfulness. Those are the ones where you walk away afterwards thinking that was a good day, that was a good session. Um I felt like I I I I enjoyed myself, but I felt like I I contributed as well. Uh it's this is lovely. I I'm you've taken me all these new places. I hope that is making sense to people listening. If it feels right, you that it it you'll you'll know.

SPEAKER_02:

That's so true. I think that in an increasingly individualistic society, that we community openness to that sometimes it's just a matter of showing up. That can be the thing that changes everything. And in your new book you talk about having a breakthrough. And you know, that could take decades or it could be a moment, it could be a certain light or colour or fragrance or something that enables you to tap into something that will provide some healing, but you will be remembered because the kindness, and I think it's so generous to offer your stories as well, and I think that's the thing that comes through in your writing. I just want to ask you a few last questions. So you went on a church here fellowship uh to study family therapy, and you also were part of the Village Scheme Exchange Program where you went to Papua New Guinea. What did those experiences teach you and how have they helped you in your work over the years?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yes. Well, Papua New Guinea was amazing. I was only I think 17 when I went there. Um I was uh um it was a thing called the village scheme where you went with a new a Papua New Guinean student going back to their village, which really in that time meant going back to this to the Stone Age. Uh the the villages were were in in the bush or on the coast. People were still hunting and gathering and uh and uh gardening their crops and their food. Uh-uh. So the women wore t tobacco leaf dresses made out of leaves. Um and um people had incredible tattoos on their faces and and and it was it was like being in the Stone Age. And um, and it was just so amazing because if you shook hands with someone, for example, you'd be greeting, you would shake hands, they would hold onto your hand for the next 10 minutes. Um there was no pulling back. It's like you're here, we're holding you. Um and and so you you belonged, um, you were always surrounded by um uh if if we if my host was a New Guinean student teacher, uh uh Bernie knew, and he was learning, starting to be a teacher in Garoka Teachers College, that about 15 kids would follow him everywhere he went, back in his village, because he was his you know interesting um relative who'd returned. Um and so you never ever felt um we sp in the evenings we sat around playing guitars and singing songs. Um and so there was a feeling of um um these people have very little and they are incredibly joyful. And laughter and song and and uh exuberance are always just right there. Um and you come back to Australia and people are so uptight and so miserable, and and so that question comes. And again, I I also um went to Calcutta. With my wife Sharon and I went to Calcutta and lived in an ashram at one stage, uh studying with a with a man there who was teaching a kind of community um politics of to to kind of bridge between the the Hindu and Muslim in a in a very big, very poor city. And um one day I fell we it was nighttime and we were walking in with some of the people from the the community and I fell into this dirty great hole um that had been dug by an excavator somewhere in the forecourt of a um service station. I just disappeared into this hole and and and there was a shriek from everyone and and from me and and all these hands came down, um grabbed hold of me, you know, 10 or so people reaching down, lifting me bodily up, back onto the dry land, uh covered in mud and and and on all these hands kind of patting me to make sure I was in in one piece and and sort of and I could feel myself being sort of going from trauma to being reassembled as as as Steve. Um and um it's a very physical thing, like they kind of put me back together, and then they sort of stood back a little bit, you know, you okay now that's yeah, it's really fine, and off off we went. Um now uh something like that might happen in Australia in a in a you know in a bushfire, we see people at their very best looking out for their neighbours and and things, and and we we get we can get that back, that's that caring. Um and but but in in those cultures it was never lost. It was always very, very strong. Um and so yeah, uh I I've loved what I've learned from from going in non-Western countries, uh the things that people have which we need to rediscover. And and and playgroups is a is a revolutionary thing, you know. You don't sit at home comparing your children to other people's children on Instagram. Um you go down to a playgroup and there's a kid who's even worse than yours, who's even behaving more badly, and you feel so relieved, you know. And and so it's it's it's different, it's a different way of being. It's being uh uh the sisterhood and the brotherhood of parents, a lovely thing that happens.

SPEAKER_02:

To finish on, I wanted to ask you about one of the most profound relationships in your life, which is you and your wife. So you've been married for over 50 years and you have worked together a lot. So she was a nurse and then a social worker and has worked with the Deaf Society. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, you created a counseling phone service for youth and a range of other different programs to support community initiatives. How has that supported you and your wife to be able to develop and grow together and in doing so support your children?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Um beside me in my mind and and and most of the time, luckily in person. And um, I was a neurodivergent teenager when I met Sharon. I was 19 and very much affected by uh having Asperges uh kind of traits. And we know now from the research, people on the spectrum really do well if they find someone who's emotionally uh intelligent and very, very caring. And and and so Sharon taught me how to um rejoin the human race. And and I would sit in the watching a movie with her, and she would make those little noises that sometimes particularly women make of sympathy for the something sad on the screen in the movies. And and and and it would sort of and I would think, that's right, this is sad. And I then I could feel it in my body. It's like she was kind of um shepherding me with uh towards my own heart and connecting better with with it. And and um, and so nothing that I've ever done has has been without her help. Um and now of course it's like I know in my head I know exactly what Sharon would say and what she would do in a situation. So I just you know, log in. Um and but she still surprises me and um and confronts me. Um and um and I've learned to 90% of the time she's absolutely the one who's right in disagreements. Um, but you can't lean on another person, and men shouldn't lean on women for their emotional work. And so so I've learned to um to also have my own opinion and stick with it if if I'm really sure that I've I've got something to say and something to do. But the dialogue, sometimes we can talk for three or four hours, you know, after after 55 s years together, um, we can still get lost and have to talk and talk and talk to get ourselves back on on track. And so if people listening who are in a rela in a relationship or a marriage, um don't fret. You know, you sometimes you completely lose the the plot. The you know, the other you just can't see the other person's point of view. Keep talking, keep being vulnerable. Um, unless you've got to s together with someone who's absolutely impossible and and uh just a bad human being, you know, violent or untrustworthy, and you need to get out of there. But if if not, if there's if you can sense a real goodwill in them, then keep talking. And you'll get there. Yeah, that's that's anyhow. But I also I was just really, really lucky as well. That was, you know, I was a pretty dumb teenager. I could have chosen much worse than I did. So luck, luck is a big part of it. So we really have to stop. Um Shanade, I'm sure you're running out of time, but that's been beautiful. And I can always come on again and talk about the wild creature ideas if you ever want to do that. Um, but but I hope that hope that it's been a nice experience for people listening, and I've loved your questions.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks so much, Steve.

SPEAKER_03:

You've been listening to our very first episode of For the Love of Play. This episode was hosted by me, Miley Nauwendorf, and Sinead Halliday. Interview conducted by Sinead Halliday. This episode was edited by Jonathan Ravette. Music by Selena Byrne. If you'd like to learn more about Playgroup Victoria, head to playgroup.org.au. If you're in Victoria and you're looking for a playgroup near you, jump on our website and find one. Playgroup.org.au forward slash find.