For the Love of Play

S2 EP1: Sean Szeps - The Gift Of Being Reminded What It's Like To Be A Kid

• Season 2 • Episode 1

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"I think it's a great gift to be reminded what it's like to be a kid..."

In Conversation with Sean Szeps – Writer and Creator 


In our first episode of For the Love of Play's second season, we chat with writer and creator Sean Szeps. 

Candid and humorous, Sean prompts us to think about gender roles, the importance of friendship, the early years of childhood and what it is that makes a healthy home. 

Sean also discusses his own childhood, the difficulty of moving to a new country with infant twins, and the wonder that comes from watching children's capacity for silliness, creativity and acceptance of difference. 

About Our Guest

On social media, and in his memoir, 'Not Like Other Dads', Sean Szeps chronicles the fun, delight and challenges of raising twins with his husband Josh. Born in the United States - he met Josh in New York - Sean moved to Australia just after the birth of his children. Since then, he has amassed a huge following on Instagram, posting hilarious videos about parenting and childhood. 

Show Links

Learn More About Playgroup Victoria

Episode Credits

Hosted by Mylie Nauendorf and Sinead Halliday.

Interview conducted by Sinead Halliday.

Editing by Jonathan Rivett.

Mastering by James North Productions.

Music by Selina Byrne.

And thanks to our little friends Toby, Adelaide and Laddie for voicing the intro.

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SPEAKER_01

Playgroup Victoria acknowledges the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and community. We pay our respects to them, their cultures, and to the elders, past and present.

SPEAKER_02

For the love of play! For the love of play. For the love of play.

SPEAKER_01

For the love of play, an exploration of childhood, family, community, and belonging.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's a great gift in general to be reminded as often as possible what it's like to be a kid, because we lose so much of that play, um, creativity, humor, silliness, but also acceptance. Um, and I think if we choose to listen and pay attention and watch, it's like one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself as an adult. I think it's one of the most special parts of becoming a parent. You're just reminded of your youth.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, welcome to season two of For the Love of Play. I am Miley, and I am joined once again by my wonderful colleague Sinead. Hello, Sinead.

SPEAKER_02

Hey Miley, hi to everyone listening.

SPEAKER_01

We are just so happy to be bringing a second season of this podcast to everybody already. We had so much fun doing season one. We were so grateful with all the conversations we were able to have, and we were just chomping at the bit to bring more conversations to the fore. So here we are, we are kicking off season two with a really cool, funny, exciting conversation. Today we are chatting with the most hilarious funny man, Sean Zepps. Sean is someone who I've come upon on social media and does a lot of he does a lot of funny videos, and um, but he's kind of you know, his work stems out more than just a funny man on social media. And, you know, he shares a lot about his life with his uh with his children, and something that came up in this interview that I just felt like was so great to hear was he said, My children keep me young. And what he means by that is just that importance of staying joyful and staying silly, and how you know he talks about how we can bring that into our adult life and how can we be more present like children are. And I just think that is such a great way to start this season off. Sinead, you chatted with Sean. What did you take from the conversation?

SPEAKER_02

Only this morning I was looking over a study about the role of laughter and humor and play in our lives, and how it's a preventative factor, how it looks after our immune system. And I think that Sean so beautifully captures uh that funniness, but then he creates an avenue with which we can share our experiences and celebrate our differences and feel at ease in our own skin, which when we see so many things online that are so polished that it's an exhale to be able to see something so real.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, totally. Well, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02

Sean Zepps has pocketed experiences, traveling to not only live in a new city but country. The American born creative has laid down roots in Sydney, sharing the growth and shenanigans of his family life, chronicling the moments, both candid and humorous, of raising two young children. As such, there is always a thread of truth in Sean's work. He invites us to expand our views of what it is that makes a family and a healthy home. Along the way, encouraging others to not accept the status quo, but instead to accept the beauty of being true to oneself. Sean, welcome to our podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02

It's great to see you today. I can't help but smile when you come on the screen because I've seen so much joy that you've brought to us, not only through the pandemic, but each and every day now.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

I'm interested to know about your childhood. What was that like? Where did you grow up? What were your early experiences?

SPEAKER_00

I grew up in the state capital of New Hampshire called Concord. For those not super familiar with American geography, that's just the northeast, towards the top, top right, uh, near Canada. Uh, grew up outside of Boston in a very religious uh Roman Catholic house, and I have just the fondest memories of my childhood. Very involved, very creative, very loving parents. Um, I have two siblings. And so when I think back to my childhood, I just think of play, creativity, a lot of music, a lot of dancing, a lot of arts and crafts, a lot of projects. I had parents that um they just built and made everything with their hands. And so if we wanted something, it was always the answer was always, let's see if we can make it. If we wanted to eat something, let's see if we can bake it. And I think when I try to just take a trip down memory lane, that's what kind of bubbles up to the top, is is using my hands and having a belief really early on that you could just do anything, that like anything was possible if you had an idea. And yeah, I think those first kind of like 10 years of my life were really angelic in that respect.

SPEAKER_02

And what kind of things did your parents instill in you? What do you think it was that shaped you as a young person?

SPEAKER_00

My mom in particular was all about effort. It didn't matter how well you did, it didn't matter if you got the highest grade or if you ran the fastest. She cared more about the fact that you were trying hard and that you were working towards something. So you always had to finish what you started and you always had to give 100% of your effort. And I think what's come from that is a delusion that I'm capable of anything because I know I know I will be able to accomplish it with effort if I just try long enough. And she was always about, like everyone always said, life is short. And she always reminded us that it could be long. And so there was less pressure to accomplish everything quickly. Like if you want something, you just have to get 1% better every day. And when I think about how I parent today, but also how I adult, like who I am as an adult and how I accomplish things and how I tackle goals and how I deal with stress, it's always linked back to just put effort in. Just put a lot of effort in. And if you work harder than anyone around you, you'll probably accomplish what you want to.

SPEAKER_02

You have for many years, I've read, had the desire to have children from a young age. Where do you think that came from? That innate desire to care and nurture and build your own family.

SPEAKER_00

Probably my mom and dad. They have a really loving relationship. And so they were mirroring for me, you know, what a healthy bond looked like. And my father really praised my mom a lot. She he still does. And so from an early age, like really early age, I was aware that the role of mother and the role of primary parent was a role, a really important role, something that was worthy of value and praise. And I think I remember thinking at a young age, like if I had a choice between like leaving my kids every day and going to work in an office and coming home at the end of the day exhausted, or spending the day with my kids uh and shaping the next generation, I just was drawn to that option. I just thought that was really special. My mom was a stay-at-home mom for the first 10 years of my life. Not only did she watch me and my siblings, she also watched, let me count on my fingers, seven other kids in almost like a daycare. And I just had the fondest memories of her always being there, always the security of kind of knowing exactly who to go to. And then I just had other really amazing female role models. I had an unbelievable abuela, my grandmother, on my mother's side, and a and a Mimi on my father's side who were just like matriarchs. And so I think I was just surrounded by that energy. And I can't diagnose it entirely, but I'm not surprised that I thought that was exciting and impressive. It wasn't until like the rude reality of the world came crashing down on me a little bit, like, oh, you're gay, and oh, you're a man, and oh, um, the world doesn't necessarily want you to follow this path that that crumbled, but I I really think of that first chunk of my life as just thinking, like, yeah, this is an awesome gig. I want this gig.

SPEAKER_02

You've lived in multiple places in your life. What's it been like creating this new life for your family in Sydney, Australia? And how challenging has it been to create a sense of community?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's so difficult. It really is. I wouldn't suggest that people choose to relocate to a new place with two-month-old children um and no connections. Maybe do that before you have the kids, or a little while afterwards when you're more comfortable with your parenting experience. But it is everyone who's moved, even just this a city to a different city in the same state, understands that it's challenging. Um, it pushes you outside of your comfort zone. But I have moved a lot, and one of the things I like about it, kind of going back to my mom, is it's not about the short sprint, which is always challenging. It's about like the massive shifts in your personality and your experience of the world that comes down the line. And I am really excited that my perspective on the world has shifted and been shaped by moving here. It's really easy to be stuck in kind of an echo chamber, um, just surrounded by people just like you who grew up in a place just like you. And when you force yourself to sit in the discomfort of the fact that maybe your way is not the only way, and even if it is, it might not be the best way. I just think it's such a great gift for you. And then when you're raising tiny humans, you get to pass that on to them too. And so they're less likely to feel stuck in an echo chamber. But I guess the short answer is it was definitely really hard, harder than I imagined. I really thought America and Australia were going to be the exact same. So I thought I would just seamlessly transition here. But the reality is that they are very different places with different cultural norms, and it took probably five years before I felt really comfortable. Um and now I'm headed into my ninth year, and yeah, I feel like I've earned my Aussie stripes.

SPEAKER_02

You've written your golden rules of parenting, and right up the tippy top of that was creating a village and for yourself as a parent as well. And you've written about having a a Rolex of people that you can rely upon not only to help you out, but also to help with your child's development and helping to create a safe space of belonging for them. How have you done that? A lot of people, it can be very isolating, especially in the early stages of caring for young children. How have you established meaningful relationships?

SPEAKER_00

Ooh, with great discomfort and challenge. It's it's not easy, is it? It's not easy for adults to find new friends. It's not easy to utilize old techniques for how you might have met people, even though you are changed and you are different and your circumstances are different. You are lugging tiny humans around. So you're not going to a bar or maybe a workout class or meeting a friend at uni. And so for for many of us, that transition into parenthood is trying to relearn who we are while also trying to relearn how to meet people and can make connections, and so that's hard. I mean, the the boring answer is like you have to put a lot more effort in than you want to, and that you're probably emotionally capable of because you're sleep deprived. Uh if what you know to be true is that people around you makes parenting easier, and I can confirm, and I think anyone with children will confirm that that is the case, then you want to have done the legwork either prior or during the discomfort, and it's never too late to put yourself out there. And so all of that is annoying. I I'm sure you're hearing it rolling your eyes. It's like, oh my God, on top of every other thing I'm juggling, I now need to like figure out how to make connections. But oh gosh, it just makes parenting 900 times easier when you're running late 10 minutes because your meeting ran over and you can text the group chat to say, Hey, can someone grab my kid? You know, when you and your partner want to go on a date or you want to hang out with your friends, like, are there reliable people around you that you feel safe enough to say, hey, can you take the kids and not feel bad about it? Like all these excuses flood in and it's so normal of why we can't. But again, in the long run, we are better parents when we are at our best, when we have provided self-care for ourselves. And so, yeah, I mean, as far as tips, go to the center of who you are and what makes you happy. There's a Venn diagram of like the things that you loved before having kids, and now you have kids, and what are the things you can possibly do, and then find the stuff in the middle potentially. Um, but if you can isolate those things and then hunt after people who like those things too, you know, you're gonna be in a better place. And I think the last thing I'll say is they don't have to have kids. I think we fall into a trap of thinking when I become a parent, I must find people who also have kids who are the same age. Sure, there are benefits to that, but what's more important is you're finding people who are like-minded. So many of my best friends still don't have children, um, and many of them do, but I was chasing what we had in common. If you love yoga, if that brings you joy, go to the yoga studio, introduce yourself, ask people if they want to have coffee afterwards. If you haven't painted in 10 years and you wish you could, you know, take a painting class once a week. And also like look for groups that are specifically for parents if that's something that's important to you. Run clubs and fitness groups that have crates. I really think you have to hustle, and it's so annoying in the short term, but in the long term, gosh, it makes parenting like literally a hundred times easier.

SPEAKER_02

You said in an ABC article, I believe if I had a parents' group, I wouldn't have struggled with postnatal depression the way that I did. A lot of people get paired with a mother's group. How do you feel about making it a parenting group? How do you feel about play groups that welcome grandparents and aunties and uncles? Um, how can we welcome more parents and carers into the fold?

SPEAKER_00

The good news is Australia is has taken massive steps in that direction over the course of the last decade. When I moved here, you know, you'd go on the government website in New South Wales and it would just say mothers group, like literally on the website. So you were immediately fe having a feeling of feeling ostracized. And when I moved here, I had kids that were two months old. And so I wasn't a part of the system. So when I called the hospital, they were confused. They're like, What do you mean? You already have the kids, the groups are already created. And then when I tried to join the local mothers group, I have so much empathy and sympathy for the reason why now. But back then I it was hard for me to understand. But they like rejected me. Like I wasn't, and and they had really good reason. It was like, listen, we're talking about the nuances and intricacies of the first months of motherhood, and we feel a little bit uncomfortable talking about that around a guy. Um, so obviously, I think we are in a different place in our society internationally than we were in the 70s and 80s and 90s. When you go to drop off your kid or pick them up, 50% of the people will be men. And of the 100%, if we take gender out of it, not all of them are parents. There are lots of grandparents helping out, and there are aunts and uncles and nannies and babysitters. What's most important is that we are able to support anyone transitioning into a new role postnatal. And as long as there are options available for everyone, I do not care that there are mothers' groups because I think there is undeniable benefits to the shared experience of getting together with people who are who are just like you. And I would never want people to take away my ability to be in gay spaces. So why would I say, all men must, you know, be welcomed into mothers' groups? As long as there are options available in every single area for parent groups, I'm happy. But the good news is I've been sharing this story now for about eight years about my experience of not being able to get into a parenting group. And all around this country, I must get messages every month from people saying, we have two dads, we have a gay dad, we have a single dad, we have a grandmother, we, we, we, we, so slowly the tide's turning, and it's turning because the world is changing. And it is no longer expected that every mother is staying at home to raise her kids for a decade. It is no longer expected that men are not involved. In fact, the opposite is the case. It is expected that mom is juggling everything. It is expected that men can do everything with their children. Um, and so I'm, I guess the answer, I'm really hopeful that we're we're there or we're getting there. I absolutely know that when I was struggling, if I had just been like showing up or rocking up once a week to a group of humans who had children around the same age, and I then I probably would have had the courage to be like, is it normal to think the thoughts that I'm having in my head? And then maybe I would have got help. But the reality is I didn't have that. And I'm still here, so thank goodness for that.

SPEAKER_02

One in ten Australian dads will experience postnatal depression following the birth of their child. It's not something that's spoken about very much, and I find many men are reluctant to speak about it. How can we reach out and support them and create a space where they feel comfortable to say, hey, I don't think I'm coping that well?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's sort of tricky, a very nuanced um response because Australia is just a tad bit behind America in the cultural relationship to therapy and support linked to men. And so we still have a sort of she'll be right attitude in our most masculine cohorts in Australia, don't we? And when we think about the men who are becoming parents or are parents now, they were most likely raised by men who were not going to therapy and were not talking with the blokes at the pub about their feelings. And so this generation of fathers, most of them at least, didn't have an amazing example of what to do if you were struggling. Now, of course, there are men who did have that. I had that. I had a dad that was very emotional and very communicative and very talkative and encouraged me to go to therapy when I was younger and struggling. And so, you know, they exist here in Australia. But what do we do when there is a generation of men, hopefully it stops now, who don't have the muscle built of raising their hand or going to their friends and saying, Here's how I'm feeling. The sad truth. The truth is the pressure then falls on our partners. So add that to the weight of the shoulders of the average woman in this country as if she doesn't have enough on her plate. But I'll keep banging on about this. It is not a gender conversation. My husband and I struggle the same way. So we are proof that it's not the case. The better you are as a person, which in some cases means the better you are with your partner, the better you are as a parent, and then the better your kids turn out. Facts. Psychologically, scientifically backed. So it is our job to check in with our partners. It should be an expectation that every single person who has a child is checking in on a weekly basis and saying, How are you doing? We know the people we decided to go into parenting with. It doesn't need to just be a husband or a wife. It could also be, you know, your in-laws who are around you, the aunts and uncles who are watching the kids once a week. You know them. Pay attention. Do they seem sad? Are they saying things that are a little alarmist? Are you noticing their sleep patterns are so negatively affected that they're not doing the things they normally would do to take care of themselves? Are they not eating well? Are they not exercising anymore? It's our job to be perceptive of the people we're choosing to raise our kids with. Because again, it's all about them. It's not just about you. So you might be fine. But if the other caregivers in their lives aren't, then it's your problem too. And so until we have government policies in place and funding to back up a much larger financial investment to mental health plans for all parents, it's it's on us. It's another thing that's on us. And so, yeah, that's what I'm all about is just checking in. It can feel impossible, but what's not impossible right now is to schedule, even without your partner's approval, a weekly meeting in your calendar on your phone that you're listening to this podcast on, I'm sure, and just pop in a recurring weekly invite on Sunday, and all you have to say is, how you doing? And then it's going to alert you once a week and you'll look at it and maybe you'll ask your partner. I think that's the perfect first step.

SPEAKER_02

Esther Perrell, she uses a form of percentages so you can come home and say, I'm on 70%. How are you going? Oh, you're on 20% today? It's okay, I'll cook dinner. Yes. How have you and your partner navigated raising twins together? Uh and how have you used your skills to help each other and share the load of tasks?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a great question because I do actually think the answer is interesting and fresh. There's a script that exists for straight couples. It has existed for a long time. And even though it has evolved and changed slightly, in many ways we continue to fall into the trap of there being women tasks and men tasks. And then you add the role mother onto it, and ooh, it becomes even more black and white. Even the best intentioned feminists will fall down the trap because the script is just so clear and prevalent in all forms of media that we just like are bumping up against it all the time. And what we do do is we fall into that trap and we do the things that we decide we're going to do in the beginning, and then that just becomes who we are, and either we love it or we hate it and we are angry at our partners. What we don't do is sit down with our partners, no matter what the gender is, and if you're parenting solo and listening to this, just people that you're choosing to caregive with, and isolate the things you're good at, the things you like, and the things you don't like, and put them on a list. Look at that list, identify potential clearings, spaces where your partner doesn't have something but you do, and fill that gap for them. That is step one. Step two is to revisit that all the time. The trap of like, this is what I do, and therefore I must continue to do it is just as dangerous. We evolve, we change, we go in and out of periods of parenting that are easier and harder for us. Our relationship to laundry and dishes, it changes. And if you're having that weekly conversation with your partner or monthly, let's say you hate the idea of weekly, monthly, you need to be able to give yourself space, maybe on a quarterly basis, to change, to say, you know, remember when I said I really like doing the laundry? I don't like it anymore. Let's switch. So I think the key to our success, and it's not always successful, is what do you like doing and what do you not like doing? And let me take some of the burden off of you because you don't like doing that thing, and I'll fill that gap, maybe just for a short period, but maybe forever, and then it's vice versa. Because we're all selfish, ego-driven individuals. We're the star of our own show. We want someone to do things for us that we don't like, and then we're willing to do it back. I just think a there aren't enough parents, mainly in heterosexual relationships, who have been gifted that the realization that you can change the stuff you do, that you're allowed to say, actually, let's let's make our priority list not based off of our titles, but instead what we're interested in and what we don't like.

SPEAKER_02

How have you two maintained a sense of self and authenticity and fun together over time?

SPEAKER_00

We've always done a really good job of prioritizing time alone. So I exercise and he exercises three times a week, and so that's three hours right off the bat that each one of us is away from our parenting responsibilities, but also away from our part partnering responsibilities. On top of that, we'll each isolate usually one night, but sometimes even more, but one night where we are connecting with people who are not our partners, so our friends. And then, you know, once every two weeks, maybe three, we're we're prioritizing time just, you know, for the two of us that's outside the home without the kids. And so that seems like a lot, right? You have three hours of exercise, one or two hours with your friends, and then you have a, you know, a date night, and you're like, wait, can I find 10 free hours in a given week? That seems alarmous, but I just I go back to the fact that when we're better partners, we're better people, and when we're better people, we're better parents, and when we're better parents, our kids turn out better. And so we did it from the very beginning. It was a piece of advice I got from a very good friend of mine, Diana, who said the routine must be established as soon as you become a parent because you will always make excuses for why you don't want to be away from your kids. So if you start from the beginning, we went on a date night the first week we had tiny humans. How hard was it to walk away from a six-day old? Very difficult. But I took that advice to heart. And I do think it's a muscle. I think it's a muscle. Um, and I think everyone's heard the list of things you can try to do, which is don't talk about the kids when they're in bed or don't talk about the kids when you're on a date night. But I don't really believe in all that. I just think if you're doing some stuff for yourself and you're trying to connect with your partner away from your parenting responsibilities, it doesn't need to be weekly, but if you're trying to do it every two weeks, I think you're gonna be fine because you're reminded on a regular basis who you were before you became parents. Because you're connected to yourself, you're connected to people who aren't your partner, and you're connected to your partner. And then that just becomes fun. It just is fun. I think of parenting as every inch of me, and yet there are weeks, you know, where I have 10 hours that are completely distanced from them. And I think everyone should have that.

SPEAKER_02

It's incredible when you think about the neuroplasticity of the brain, and I am enjoying hearing you say building that muscle over time. What do you do to support your own healthy headspace?

SPEAKER_00

I am in therapy on a regular basis. I have been in therapy for nearly 25 years, like almost half of much more than half of my life now. Um I'm just a huge proponent of like, even when things are really good, working on yourself, thinking about your life and your problems. And I think it's incredibly healthy when you're navigating huge transitions, and parenting is a massive series of transitions, some micro and some very big. Um, and so that's something I'm a I'm a big fan of. For me, it's about like gifting my body constant rewards. And for me, that's about exercise, eating healthy, but then balancing that out with treats, you know, giving myself kind of a day of eating whatever I want or going out with friends and having a couple of drinks. It's all about balance. But for me, you know, if I'm able to hit the gym and get exercise in three days a week, I know that's a gift to myself. And it just makes it so much easier to parent. The other thing I want to say that my husband and I have always done really well, and I'm super proud of, and I've been banging on about it for eight years in the public eye, is that we go on solo trips without the family once a year. So we each get up to two weeks, but sometimes it's obviously as little as five days. It just depends on our family schedule, where we get to go on a trip with our friends. It doesn't have to be far. This year I went to Melbourne, you know, it did not cost a lot of money. But we're always gifting ourselves opportunities to remain connected to the people who are not in our nuclear family, to remain connected to the people that we love and who shape us. You know, sometimes it's part of our village. And then that means when we come back from those trips, we're better parents every time. We miss them, and we're better partners because we know that we're gifting each other an opportunity to connect with self. It's just self-care and self-love. And I'm really proud of that. I, you know, my friendship groups jokes a lot. You guys are always traveling, and Josh is gone, and you're gone, and you are always gone on date nights. Yeah, we are. You know, that's really important to us. And I think it's a really healthy balance. Our kids also get to have a better relationship with their village. They get to spend a couple of days at Nana's house. They get to have a sleepover with their best friends while Dada and Dada and Daddy connect. And I think that's a good gift we're giving them.

SPEAKER_02

You do speak about creating a community to support your family of different ages and cultural backgrounds, gender, sexualities. And we know role modeling is huge for children. What have you observed about the ways that children are role modeled to in the modern world?

SPEAKER_00

It's definitely in a much better place than it was even 10 years ago. You know, when I was a kid, I grew up in New Hampshire where the population is 96% white. And I just didn't have access to different types of cuisines, different people. And it was like alarming when I grew up to be confronted with the reality of the world. But we didn't have social media, we only had the DVDs, or not the DVDs, we only had the V VHS tapes that went into our television of Disney movies, and so there wasn't a ton of variety. We don't have that excuse anymore. And so most of the people I know, no matter where they live, are able to gift their kids the introduction to the beautiful diversity of this world just on the phone, so that children are confronted with that reality earlier on, so that when they're out in the world and they're confronted by seeing a gay person or someone in a wheelchair or someone with, you know, red a red blotch on their face, they've seen it and had conversations with their parents in the comfort of their home. It's challenging to be little and be confronted with newness every single day. And it is one of our jobs as parents to use the tools at our disposal to prepare them. And so most of the people I know or meet online are using the internet as a way to say, some people look like this and some people live this type of life. And so I would encourage you, if you're not doing that, it takes two hours. You sit down on a Saturday, you pull up 10 types of people who are different than you, and you just show the picture to your kid and let them talk openly and honestly, and don't shame them for their response and just have conversations with them. You know, those technologies didn't exist when we were growing up, and so it was a lot harder. But I have one story in particular where I have a really good friend um with dwarfism, and we were meeting up just on a play date when the kids were maybe two or three, and she's a good friend of mine. I didn't think anything about it. I was like, Yeah, we're just gonna have a play date. And um two of her kids also have dwarfism. And I didn't prepare my children at all. I was just like, we're going to the park, we and so, of course, things came out of their mouth that I wasn't proud of. And of course, I was sad for my friend that she's having to experience these like micro interactions with little kids that I'm sure she's had to deal with her entire life. I definitely felt like I had failed her, but more than that, I felt like I had failed my kids. Like it's if not me, then who? Like I'm the only one who could have prepared them for that. And so when I got back in the car, I thought, bro, you better do better. You know, you are different. I am different. I know what it's like to have people talk at me and around me about my difference. And so I do know better. And so if you're listening and you're you live a privileged life and you're not that different, and your kids aren't that different, and maybe you live in a community of people who aren't different, just remember that one day they aren't gonna be in the safety of that community and they're gonna be wandering around an airport or a library or headed on a vacation. How are they gonna handle meeting somebody who's different? And what are you doing to help prepare them for that? It's not a massive task because you really can do it in small, easy ways by just pulling up Google image search and typing in person in a wheelchair and flipping the phone around and going, look at this. How does that make you feel? Do you do you recognize? Have you ever seen somebody like this before? What do you think? And then just having a conversation.

SPEAKER_02

Looking the other way around, what kind of things do your children role model to you? What do they remind you of, or in their use and their innocence, what do they point out to you? Something that you might have overlooked.

SPEAKER_00

I believe the children are future children. Modern kids are so much more accepting than modern adults. And it's a constant reminder that like bigotry, homophobia, hatred is taught, it is learned, it is acquired. I just have hundreds, hundreds of stories of little kids saying to my to my kids, where's your mom, for example, and then my kids saying, Oh, I have two dads, and then these kids almost always, in 99% of cases, going, I wish I had two dads. That's so cool. Want to play on the slide? They just like take the information, acknowledge the information, and move on with their lives. It's always adults. It's always adults who have the problem. It is never the little kids who haven't been indoctrinated. And I think that's like a really great gift. I think it's a great gift in general to be reminded as often as possible what it's like to be a kid, because we lose so much of that play, um, creativity, humor, silliness, but also acceptance. Um and I think if we choose to listen and pay attention and watch, it's like one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself as an adult. I think it's one of the most special parts of becoming a parent is you're just reminded of your youth, and then you can link up with it again. That's what I do. I try to, through the lens of my children, remember eight-year-old Sean. What was he like, and what did he think about, and what did he get in trouble for? And didn't what did it feel like to get in trouble, and what made him happy, and how did that feel too? And can you revisit that as an adult?

SPEAKER_02

Words are so powerful, and not very long ago a friend was telling us about something that was said to her about her body type when she was seven years old, and and then my other friend had a story about someone saying something about the colour of her skin, and then everyone had something, and we're talking under eight years of age. How much of an impact do those early experiences have in your own life, but also how you've observed along the way with peers and with your own children? They're listening, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00

They're always listening. One of my favorite lines from my book To Toot My Own Horn is that you don't have access to the script in your child's head. You know, I think back to my childhood and I wished that I could have just taken the script and given it to my parents because my life would have been so much easier because they were just so loving and accepting. But you just don't have access to it. You don't really know what your child's going through. They're always listening, they're always soaking it up. But it doesn't all happen in your home. In fact, a majority of the script is being written when you're not around. And obviously, as a parent, that can be hard to hear and sit with. But it's also a gift because it's a reminder that you have to ask. You don't get to just decide that you know what you're who your child is because you've because you're their parent. Doesn't work that way. Sorry. I think one of the more positive spins on this, if we just take the examples you gave and then the ones all around me, I really thought I was the only one who had it hard when I was a kid. I was the only gay kid in my school. I was the one getting bullied and laughed at. It wasn't until I was an adult that I realized the redheaded girl with freckles had a really similar experience. The one black girl in my school had a really similar, if not tougher, experience. The girl born without an arm. Like we, there are all these people who are the ingenues of their own story. And when you're young, people just look for differences and they focus on them. And the reason I said this is positive is because all of those people turned out to be great, empathetic and sympathetic to others, deeply understanding of what it feels like to be othered, and therefore the way they communicate and behave changes. And so when I get messages from parents saying, my kid is different, help, it's hard. I try to provide some tips and tricks, but I remind them that it's building a really strong barricade around them that is going to make them better adults. And if you're parenting for the 28-year-old, like if you're thinking about who they will be when their brains are fully developed, it actually is valuable. People who don't experience any hardship in life, I'm sorry, they always end up being wankers. It's just a fact. And so it's hard to sit with. But I think, yes, kids are always listening. Yes, childhood can be difficult. Yes, there are things that are different about us that people are going to find and isolate. But I swear in the long run, you are going to be a more sympathetic and understanding person. And so that's how I try to like spin it in my head.

SPEAKER_02

I love the word sonda, this realization that other people are living complex and newest lives of their own, separate to ours. Since becoming a parent, how do you feel about other people's lived experiences? Do you feel now that you have a different understanding?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's definitely helped um to to grow up as an other because I think it just kind of opens up the possibilities for the way you view the world. Then you think about living in New York City in my twenties and what a diverse world New York is. Um and then I think about moving to a new country and having to be challenged with all of the cultural changes. Like all of that has really prepared me. But specifically when we think about parenthood, there are two gifts it gave me that are really valuable. One is to understand that my parents were actually just kids who randomly had a kid and they had no idea what they were doing. And then we just decided they were gods, but they were just like 23-year-olds figuring shit out, you know? And that's a great gift because I actually go easier on myself when I'm reminded of that, that they weren't perfect in every way. They were just figuring it out that every parent was once a child until they had one. And like that to me is actually the circle of life because once you can put that into perspective, it also grants you a new opportunity to think about their parents and who they were, and then their parents. And when we look deep into our family tree and we really think about the fact that they're all just figuring it out on their own and trying their best with the tools in their tool belt, if we choose to think about all of that, we go easier on ourselves. We do not lose our mind when we yell at our kid one day. We go, you know what? I can just apologize. I did the best I could in that moment. Reframe. So I think that is massive. So, so huge. The other thing is it is never too late to apologize, to mend relationships from our past, and to revisit times in our lives when we weren't as educated and aware as we once were. When I became a parent and I realized how hard it was, and I realized how tired I was and I realized how complicated it was to juggle a full-time job while also raising kids. You know what I did? I called my mom and apologized. You know what I did? I called the three moms who used to work for me in New York and said, sorry, I didn't understand how hard it was, and I was kind of a dick to you. Like, it's never too late. When you're 60 or 70 or 80 or 90, who knows, and you're like in a on your porch and you're in a little swing and you're not working anymore, and you're looking to your left and you're looking to your right, you're only going to be left with the decisions that you made. And so why not like tie some loose ends? Once you have access to new information, go back and write your wrongs. I think that's my biggest thing is I just realized this is so much harder than I thought it was. And people are just getting by with no acknowledgement or awareness of how hard it is. We don't even really see parents, even though everyone comes from one and most people become one. We don't do a good enough job of being like, this is the most important job. Absolutely. And because we can acknowledge that, here are all of the gifts we're giving those people to make sure their life is easier. We don't do that. Here's your shorter work schedule, here's your more time off, here's a way to make your work life somehow align with a terribly small schedule at school. Here's extra money the government's gonna give you for mental health, but also just for raising your kids and for all the things you're gonna have to buy. Because what? Parenting's the most important job. We don't do that, we're not there yet. I hope we'll get there one day. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, we're acknowledging all the parents and carers this morning, aren't we?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we are.

SPEAKER_02

Well done, everybody out there. What have your children taught you about yourself, your beliefs, emotions, ideas? What have they cracked open in you? Have they shifted your focus? Have they inspired you?

SPEAKER_00

They've kept me young. Like I wouldn't be doing what I do for a living, which is act like a silly child on the internet, if it wasn't for my children. I am reminded through them how important it is to remain silly and fun and carefree. I'm reminded, which might be because I was a younger parent, of what it was like to be young. As often as possible, you get to choose to see the world through their eyes. And when I'm, you know, making jokes about poop in the car, or singing a song I wrote about farting just to make them laugh, or playing characters when they're taking baths, pretending we're in France and I'm taking their order at a restaurant, like they're taking me back to my childhood and the play that is beaten out of us when we become adults. When we leave uni, we go right into the real world, and it is a rude reality, and you are thinking about money and what you need to pay and getting ahead in your business, and there isn't a lot of time for the play and the joy that childhood brought you. And I think I'm reminded to just reconnect to that. My husband and I talk about a lot how can we play in the work we're doing as adults, and that's because of them. How can we bring play and fun and creativity into the work we're doing as adults? I think it's just like such a great gift if you choose to let it be.

SPEAKER_02

I think it's a really nice thing to do every so often to remember a moment when you were young when you felt most at peace in yourself and free, and then think, How can I get back to that place and that person, and how can I be kind to that person that's still living in me?

SPEAKER_00

Totally.

SPEAKER_02

It's been so great speaking to you this morning. I wanted to end with a quote from your daughter, and she said to you one day, Why do we always have to keep moving on to the next thing? Can't we just play until we aren't having fun? She's so clever. The wonder of children and bringing us back into the present moment. How much is a gift has that been to you? And how much has having two little people in your life surprised you?

SPEAKER_00

Such an unbelievable gift and a surprise you can't prepare yourself for. It's like such an unbelievable, unbelievable natural step in life to experience the kind of next phase of our existence, which is to care less about yourself and care more about other little people who really need you. What I love about that quote in particular is when I think about my daughter playing with Lego this morning. I got her a wicked set for the movie that's coming out. My son's sitting next to her, and he has a Lego set too. It's a new dinosaur one, and they're just playing the Lego bricks on the on the carpet. They can do that for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours without interruption because they have not been introduced to technology. They have their brain has not been rewired by a constant need for newness with each swipe and the dopamine rush of a like. And so what I have to do is fight the urge to stop playing Lego with them, to s to fight the urge to just check the work email, to fight the urge after 15 minutes or 30 minutes to give up because my brain is desperate for newness. You know, if we choose to observe that and steal it, we are gifting ourselves that again. I think children are the only answer to potentially solving our addiction problems because you do want to be as present as you can. The impacts are undeniable. And if what's stopping you is something that feels out of your control, this glowing device that's pulling you forward. Um, you know, there are boxes you can put your phone in, you can turn it off, you can give it to your kid and say, here, take this. Yeah, I think it's like a hurdle, and that's what makes it so exciting to go back to the end of that question. Like what's so surprising about it is it's hard and you got to work at it, but because you care so much about them, it's really worth it. And in the long run, you become a better person. And I think um, yeah, I just think it's such a gift.

SPEAKER_02

Well, your children are so lucky to have you, and we've been so lucky to have you today. Keep being yourself, spreading your joy and your stories. Thanks so much for being on our podcast today, Sean.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01

You've been listening to the first episode in season two of For the Love of Play. A huge thanks to Sean for being so generous with his time. As always, our interview was conducted by Sinead Halliday. Sinead also hosted the episode with me, Mileen Allendorf. The episode was edited by Jonathan Ravette, and James North Productions did the mastering. Music for the podcast was performed by Selena Byrne. And a huge thanks to our little friends Toby, Adelaide, and Laddie, whose voices appeared in this episode.playgroup.org.au. Did you enjoy listening to this podcast? We really hope that you did, and we would love you to spread the word. You can do that by leaving us a review on whatever platform you're listening to this on. Five stars only, please. And we would love you to tell your friends and family about it. Please share the love. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02

Let's get outside, it's prime.