For the Love of Play

S2 EP2: Tina and Mark Harris (Lah Lah) - Music Is The International Language We Share

• Season 2 • Episode 2

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"Exposing your child to music - having music play, taking them to concerts - that's one of the best thing you can do."

In Conversation with Tina and Mark Harris – Musicians, Musical Educators and Co-Creators of Children's Music Group, Lah Lah 


In In this episode of For the Love of Play, we chat with Mark and Tina Harris, the musicians behind the hugely popular Australian children's music group, Lah Lah.

Tina and Mark Harris have dedicated their lives to music and in this discussion, they talk about their partnership, their respective (and often overlapping) musical careers and their views on music and the world. 

The conversation covers the therapeutic benefits of music, the challenge of retaining human quality in a medium that often rewards AI-produced mediocrity and the ways in which parents can introduce their children to music and musical instruments. 

About Our Guests

Tina and Mark Harris, who have been married for 30 years, met at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music and have gone on to be part of orchestras, theatre productions and bands. They have amassed millions of views on their YouTube channel dedicated to Lah Lah, the children’s ensemble they co-created in 2009. They are also passionate advocates for musical spaces and musical education. 

Show Links

Learn More About Playgroup Victoria

Episode Credits

Hosted by Mylie Nauendorf and Sinead Halliday.

Interview conducted by Sinead Halliday.

Editing by Jonathan Rivett.

Mastering by James North Productions.

Music by Selina Byrne.

And thanks to our little friends Toby, Adelaide and Laddie for voicing the intro.

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Mylie

Playgroup Victoria acknowledges the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and community. We pay our respects to them, their cultures and to the elders, past and present.

Speaker

For the love of play. For the love of play.

Mylie

For the love of play, an exploration of childhood, family, community, and belonging.

Tina Harris

So just um exposing your child to music, having music play, taking them to concerts, I mean that's one of the best things you could go and see a show. Go and take your little one to go and see some music live because that's listening to music and and being there in a performance is a completely different experience.

Mark Harris

Yeah, and and by no means does that concert or experience need to be children's music. That's right. We like children's music, it's colourful, the themes are aligned to what kids are into, but really kids just love good music of any kind.

Mylie

Hey Miley, hello to everyone listening. We have two very special guests today. A musical duo we've had quite a long-standing relationship with. And then Sinead, you have known these people for a long time. Who are we chatting with today?

Sinead

We're talking with Tina and Mark Harris. They have a rare and special partnership, drawing together their love of music and performing and creativity is not only part of their life, but part of who they are. They're both trained musicians with the breadth of work crossing genres and countries, and they've played in bands and worked with the Sydney Youth Orchestra. There's so much to discover about them and they're really inspiring people.

Mylie

Yeah, totally. What really resonated with me in this discussion was how they talk about music being an international language. You know, we might not speak the same language as someone, but when music has involved, everyone understands each other. I was recently travelling through Europe and I went to an amazing wedding in Switzerland where I didn't really speak the language of a lot of people that were there, but when the Backstreet Boys came on, the message was clear. Everyone spoke the same language, and that language was to dance to the Backstreet Boys. A lot of lot of millennials at this wedding. So it was so great to hear that sentiment from such, you know, talented musicians because that that is what really resonates. And I think when we're talking about music with children, that is that international language too, babies that can't speak yet. But look at them jiving along when you put a song on. So without further ado, let's pull up our stripey socks and dance into our conversation with Tina and Mark Harris.

Sinead

They are seize the day people, or so it seems, dedicating their life to music, sharing it, and following the pathways with which maladies lead them. The pair, married for almost 30 years, have played in orchestras, in lounge rooms, at the Sydney Opera House, at the back of theaters with their children in tow. They have amassed millions of views on their music clips on YouTube as children's entertainers la la. But always it is their ability to connect and spread joy that sets them apart. Tina and Mark, welcome to our podcast.

Tina Harris

Thank you. That was such a lovely introduction.

Mark Harris

Almost 30 years. It's true though.

Sinead

It's great to have you guys on this morning. Music is something that I think of like fragrance. It's evocative and somehow unlocks ideas and emotions within us. What are your early memories of music as children?

Tina Harris

Oh.

Mark Harris

Mine's pretty easy. Um I grew up in a household where not not of professional, well, they were professional musicians. My mum was a chorister in the Sydney Philharmonia Choirs organization for pretty much my entire life until recently she's retired. Uh, and so my early memories were going along to Sydney Phil choral rehearsals at Sydney Grammar School in the city of Sydney. Um, and I would um sit under her rehearsal chair with um they used to have these little uh magic pen activity books where you'd you like it was magic ink, and and and I would she would buy me one of those and I'd do that and I'd nick PK chewing gum pieces out of her handbag while listening to the great choral works.

Tina Harris

Um my um I guess my love of singing came from um watching old musicals with my grandfather and he used to tape them, the the midday movie with Bill Collins Midday movie. And then I'd walk down to my grandparents after school and we'd sit down and watch all the old musicals together and um drink tea and drink and have cake and and watch all the old singing, which was lovely.

Sinead

So music was a a force in both of your lives from a young age.

Tina Harris

Yeah, it was very present, I think. Yeah.

Sinead

Who has been some of your musical influences over the years?

Mark Harris

So many. Oh wow. I mean, um, as a professional musician, I think it's fair to say you go through different phases of your passions and obsessions with music. Uh for a long time, I would have said Pavarotti was a huge influence upon me. Uh, and then another huge period would be the uh New York-based jazz piano player, composer Brad Meldow was a huge influence on me. Um, Australia's own James Morrison, the trumpet player. I first, when I first was introduced to jazz, he had released and reduced released an album called Snappy Doo of a big band where he played all the instruments and overlaid. And I'd listened to that so many times I could uh I could almost play all the solos now. You know, yeah. So there there were too many to name.

Tina Harris

Yeah, for me it was um I I started off classically, so I trained at the um Sydney Conservatorium and and went through to work a bit with Opera Australia. And so for me it was very classically driven initially. So um, and then when I met Mark, I was introduced to the world of jazz and world music, and he used to play in a band called Monsieur Camembert, and I think that was a very strong influence for Lala when we first got started. Definitely. We can definitely hear that in our brush your teeth song.

Mark Harris

I lost those, especially the early uh tracks.

Sinead

And you both lived overseas for a time as well. You lived in Paris and in Japan?

Tina Harris

Yeah, so when I finished, I I spent too long at university. So I did a Bachelor of Creative Arts um initially when I came out of school. I did a deal with my father, and he said if I did well in maths, I was allowed to do anything at university. So I went through and I said, fine, I'm doing creative arts, I'm gonna sing. And then I went to the conservatorium and did a uh dip hop, so a diploma of opera and then a master's um there. And I fell in love with French music and French song, and Mark was really easy to convince um that we should move to Paris and study French and more song. And I had a friend over there that was singing with a Paris opera, and so we packed up at the end of our studies and we moved to Paris and we lived there for about seven months um drinking wine and eating cheese, and Martin was playing.

Mark Harris

All our savings.

Tina Harris

And then uh when we ran out of money, we applied for um some teaching positions in Japan, and we we went to Japan um and lived and worked there for almost two years, um, and then we came home to have our first daughter, Lily.

Mark Harris

Made in Japan.

Tina Harris

Yeah, made in Japan.

Sinead

And what did that gift you with those experiences, different cultures and also different music influences?

Mark Harris

Yes, uh wow. When I think the the the biggest gift it gave me personally was when we first went to Japan, we had complete stars in our eyes about, you know, we were gonna take on the world and and live overseas and have these fantastically successful careers as elite musicians, etc. Um, running out of money in Paris reasonably quickly within seven months, because we didn't have papers, so we couldn't work legally, um was a little bit d disillusioning at the time. It was still an incredible adventure, and going to Japan was life-changing. But when I got to Japan, I kind of had had it with music for a while. Like before we'd left Australia, most of the gigs I was doing were weddings, bar mitzvahs, birthdays, corporate events, and stuff like that. Not not the music that I'd trained to play. And so I kind of had to almost two years off playing the bass. I just, I just we we got in, we were teaching English, I got into that job, I got into the Japanese lifestyle, and it was great. But by the end of that 18 to almost two years in Japan, um I started to realise just how much I missed playing, and I kind of went back with this vision to to dive fully back into music, and I've never left it ever since. I I I I I I I was lucky because when I got back to Australia, I pretty much joined the James Morris and sexet straight away. Um and then Monsieur Camabert after that. So I wasn't doing corporate functions and stuff, I got into show bands, um, and my life just changed, and I just got really excited by music, and I've stuck to it like glue ever since. So that was the big takeaway for me.

Tina Harris

Yeah, for me, the um living in Japan was an amazing experience because um quite quickly um we had a couple of opportunities come up that that we jumped on, and one of them was um I was made the children's coordinator at the school I was teaching at. So I was teaching um little kids um English, and as part of that, singing a lot of nursery rhymes and songs, and I really liked that. And the other thing that we were doing was we used to go down, we'd met a beautiful lady, Tomako, and she wanted us to come and teach on our day off down at the local Kuminkan, the little community center, a class of um lovely Japanese housewives who just wanted to do conversational English. There were two blokes, two blokes in the class, and that the rest were all lovely housewives. And um, we used to go down and we do this conversational English class with them once a week, and then we all would go out and have lunch, and going out and having lunch was the big social thing afterwards, which was so much fun. And in a way, I think that teaching experience, working with the kids, working with that conversational class, um, is kind of it it started to kind of seed an idea, I think, of what we would do when when we came back. Um yeah, it was it was just a lovely experience. And and we actually took our daughters back years later, um, when they were kind of about 2014, I think we were back. So they're and they got the entire class together again to meet the girls, and it was just it was a beautiful experience. It was so nice.

Sinead

So special those relationships that have prevailed for all of these times, too. So when you got back to Australia, how did the seed for La La start to bloom?

Tina Harris

So I blame my friend Kate, who I love dearly and she's still my best friend. I knew that going back and singing full-time at the opera company wasn't going to work because I had a at that time Lily was just about to start school and Emily was a was a toddler, and I was going a little stir crazy and I wanted to do something, but I I just it it's that thing I think when a lot of mums feel it when they have kids and life kind of does this seismic shift and and you you have a different kind of idea on who you are and what you want to do with this next stage of your life, and and I really felt that. And I was like, Well, I don't want to spend six months of the year in Sydney and then have to go to Melbourne and do that with the company. I need something that's going to be more grounded in here. And Kate said, Well, why don't you look at teaching early childhood music classes? You've got all these, you know, music training, this would be a really great thing. And I was like, Oh, okay. So I went off and I did some retraining and we opened the first school. And the first school was very successful, and then we opened a second school. So they were just classes I was teaching at a local hall. And at the end of the term, I'd drag Mark along and with a double bass, and we do some songs so that we could encourage families to enroll for the next term. So we made it a bit of a fun event at the end of the term, and it was one of the mums said to me, You guys are great, you should do a show. And I was like, Oh, that's a good idea. You're in the school holidays, we should do a show.

Mark Harris

No classes in the school holidays.

Tina Harris

No classes, no income, so what so that's a really good idea. So um stupidly, I decided to, and I say stupidly because I had no idea what I was doing.

Mark Harris

I uh a little extra background to that was that I had been playing with the um Sydney Opera House Babies Proms Orchestra for a few seasons uh in that period, and so I had seen the swathes of families that came to these live music events, and and uh you know, also as all um good true Australians will do, we we took Lily along to Wiggles concerts at the end of the year. So we and Just Anne Clark, who's amazing.

Tina Harris

She just released her first DVD back then, and I was like, oh, that's that's great. And I loved her music and what she was doing. And I was like, wish all seemed possible. It all seemed possible. Which, you know, of course, in if I'd known how difficult the next kind of few years were going to be, you'd you'd you'd probably stop yourself and think twice. But um it was a great adventure. So we hired um well, I hired the FOIA of the Seymour Centre, not the theatre, the actual FOIA, and I pitched it to them and I said, I'd like to put like a baby's prom style show in the foyer and um make it really accessible for young families to come along and sing and dance. Um and I'll do it in the school holidays, and I think I I said 21 shows or something crazy.

Mark Harris

Well, we've did the Subtle and Entertainment Center, two days, three shows. Yeah. That was the weekend, and then we did Monday to Saturday, so maybe six days at the Seymour Center, three shows a day, all booked in.

Tina Harris

And it was an absolute financial disaster. And and I put didn't know how to sell tickets. I'd never done it before.

Mark Harris

Well, you did buy uh ads in like the Herald.

Tina Harris

I did. I spent a huge amount of money on marketing. And so um I remember our choreographer, the amazing Katie Kerman, saying, Tina, you need to make this an industry show. You need to go out and invite as much industry as you can. So I invited the Sydney Opera House, the M Wall Theatre, and Nickelodeon to come along. And we condensed the shows and made them look really full, and they came along. And what was really interesting was we knew we had something because the audience would come along for the 10 o'clock, love it, go out, buy tickets to the 11 o'clock, and come back and see the show back to back. So I knew there was something about what we were doing, there was something really interesting. Um, but yeah, so Nickelodeon then um the beautiful Deerie Brennan said to us afterwards, um, let's make some music video clips together. And we managed to get the Opera House on board to do a season of babies proms, and then we also managed to get the More on. The M World Theatre on to do a season there in Sydney. So at that point then we were up and running.

Sinead

Wow. And you recruited some of your friends to come and join the band.

Tina Harris

Yeah.

Mark Harris

Yeah. So um when when when we went home after that school class that day where the the friends had said, why don't you do a show? And we were like, that's a good idea. Tina's like, okay, we should do a show. You know, what what kind of what's the angle? What are we going to do here? And I said, Well, look, I I don't want to just go and make really chintzy, um, really simplified babies music. Like, I want to make it like good music for kids. Uh, and and actually, when you speak to when you interview any children's um entertainer, they'll all say the same thing. I looked at what was out there at the time for my kids and thought, there's nothing I like, so I'm gonna make what I think's great for my kids. Well, we did that too. And that's no disrespect to all the other great children's acts out there, but uh, there was nothing really jazz and really world music-y like this band, Monsieur Cavember, that I was playing with. And so um, yeah, we we put together the band largely with members or deputy members from the Monsieur Cavember band. And I said to Tina, let's let's bring this flavor of world music and like gypsy jazz and you know, re like jazz jazz, you know, New York style sort of jazz, um, to a kid's band and just make the lyrics more along aligned to the themes that kids are into. And that was really the genesis of the style.

Sinead

Very cool. You have these wonderful videos where talented musicians join you, often with unique and intriguing instruments. What is the power of introducing children to these instruments and the possibilities of sound from a young age?

Tina Harris

I think that early childhood music education or or or music awareness is kind of the biggest gift any parent can give to their child. It is something that I mean, they've done all of this research and this great work by the amazing Dr. Anita Collins on music and the brain on little ones and how valuable it is. She's written a couple of books on it. Definitely worth reading. Amazing lady. Um for us, I think especially introducing so because it w a parents or the first thing a parent will ask me is, what age should my child start learning a music instrument and what instrument should they do? And it it will always be piano or violin, um, they're gonna the the first two go-to instruments for any child. But there are hundreds of musical instruments out there. And so I think the beauty of what Lala was able to do through Lala's Adventures and the Stripey Sock Club TV series was to show families this breadth of um, oh, you got your stripes on, I love it. Um, this the these amazing instruments so that um kids could say, Mum, what is that? I want to play it, or what are you know, they they could listen to the sounds and you know, um focused listening and all these things that can be wrapped up, all these amazing learning things. I'm so not articulate when I speak about this.

Mark Harris

Well, there's just so much to say, is the difficult thing. Um, unfortunately, in uh the Australian education system, at least in the New South Wales and I'm sure it's um national, um the obligation on schools through the curriculum to deliver a comprehensive early music learning um uh framework for for kids is sadly lacking in Australia. Um and we see what we do, and uh you know that's so grandiose, we we're just a tiny part of trying to inspire people to get involved at least. But um the you're the benefits of music to every part of a child's development. It's not just about neurodevelopment, it's it's also social development, it's about um coordination. It's a you know, if you studies show if you can keep a beat by the age of uh 12 months, I I I forget the data exactly, that that will lead to better reading outcomes, for example. So there's there are just there are so many cross-collations.

Tina Harris

Research that when a child learns to tap like clap in time is when they can actually start to walk and run. Like all of these things are so kind of innately in you know intertwined with it with a little one's development. So it's I think it's it's incredibly important. Um but uh but but I also think that parents don't have to get hung up on it as well. So just um exposing your child to music, having music play, taking them to concerts, I mean that's one of the best things you go and see a show. Go and take your little one to go and see some music live because that's listening to music and and being there in a performance is a completely different experience.

Mark Harris

Yeah, and and by no means does that concert or experience need to be children's music. No, that's right. We like children's music, it's colourful, the themes are aligned to what kids are into, but really kids just love good music of any kind. Of literally any kind. Go take your kid to a quality heavy metal band concert if you want to. Like if that's well, with Ian Loughs. Yeah, yeah, that's right, just protect their hearing. But uh, you know, like it g good music is what's important, not what the the style or the And Snaid, here's a here's a funny little aside for you.

Tina Harris

Our kids grew up on the road with us, and we used to drag them along every school holidays, and they'd come along with the band and they'd be stuck behind the merch, content like merch. Kind of stall helping us um set up for shows and so they were exposed to a lot of music. Our youngest daughter, we were we tried everything. We tried piano lessons, we tried violin lessons, we tried cello lessons, guitar. See, like she just did not, she rejected everything that we tried to get her to do.

Mark Harris

She liked dance and knitting.

Tina Harris

Yes, and crochet and squishies. And so in year 12, we thought, she was a beautiful artist, we thought that she was going to go to art school. And she even auditioned for art school and got in. An early placement, yep. And when we walked away from the open day, she said, I'm not going there. And we said, What are you going to do? And she said, I'm going to the conservatorium. And we said, To do what? What? And she said, I'm going to I'm going to sing opera. And I went, What? And the little monkey, she turned around and I helped her get some singing lessons with a girlfriend of mine. She worked and worked and worked. She got into the conservatorium and now she's studying conducting. And she's in and so what we find fascinating is the music has been there her entire life, but she hasn't had anything. She's never a focus for nothing until you're 12. And all of a sudden it grabbed her. And and that's now what she's going to do with her life. So I think music can be incredibly powerful. And so for parents, they don't need to feel um pressured. Expose the kids to music, see if it sticks, but you never know because it's might pop back in their lives later on.

Mark Harris

And even if it's not directly music related, uh the other anecdote is our elder daughter who's 22, almost 23 now, and she she was super connected to music all the way through school and studied a range of instruments and enjoyed them all and was involved in all the organ uh the choirs and the groups at school. Um when sh what she really loved is the creative process. And and and at the end of the day, what grabbed her was film. And she was writing some music for film and stuff, but she really loved actually using the camera and editing the works together. And, you know, fast forward a bunch of years and now she's uh in the edit team on a major Hollywood film being shot in Sydney at the moment, and and and so is pursuing a creative life. Yeah, that's that's something that she's passionate about. And I think, you know, um not so many people are fortunate to be passionate about the jobs that they do. Jobs can be a chore, but um, we're really lucky that both of our kids have found things that they're passionate about to pursue and they're and they're building careers in in both.

Sinead

Yeah, and it's that inexplicable thing. I was thinking while you were talking that the first concert I ever went to was Vicar and Linda Bull. Well when I was uh three years old, and I was trying my hardest to keep my eyes open because I really want to hear this song, which for a three-year-old was probably a little bit inappropriate, still one of my favourite songs. But I was thinking about there's one of their songs that they sing in their native language, and I can sing it and I I love it, but I have no idea what the words are, and music is such an international language for all of us. How does it break down barriers and allow people from all over the world to connect?

Tina Harris

Oh, that's such a good question.

Mark Harris

I've got two thoughts on that one.

Tina Harris

Well, we've got one when I was a kid and I would have been early high school, I was playing saxophone in the local concert band in Wollongong, and I wasn't very good. Um and we went on an exchange to Japan and we were at we were down the street one night, there was a whole lot of kids, and we saw this young guy busking on the street, and we didn't speak Japanese, and he didn't speak any English, and um a couple of the kids were trying to communicate, saying, Oh, we we play too. And as kids, this was such an exciting thing to to meet a musician who you couldn't communicate. Anyway, a couple of the kids ran back, grabbed grabbed their instruments, came down, and we had a jam in the street, and it was such a magical memory of how we had a complete conversation through music and and spoke another language. I think you you had a similar experience when we were in um we we just got back from Italy, so um we were in Venice and you met that young trumpet.

Mark Harris

I uh yeah, that's right. I've had I had so many cross-cultural experiences, all these ideas are just jumping in my head. But yeah, yeah, we so we took the family on that on that long-promised family holiday of Europe. We had to wait till the children were both adults because we couldn't afford it until then. And that was this last uh l last This year. This year.

Tina Harris

No, this year. We're still in this year.

Mark Harris

What a year it's been. Wow. Uh and and we found ourselves in Venice in the middle of summer, and we were walking around um uh looking for a place to eat, and we'd gone through uh an area they called the Jewish ghetto. It was fantastic. We've been in this great shop and book, got you that lovely glass thing. Um and then we found ourselves suddenly stumbling across this canal that was covered in restaurants, and so we're like, okay, let's go and walk past some restaurants and find out where to go get a bite to eat. And we came back past this canal and we saw um a a poster outside a venue and had like musical instruments on it. Oh, that's interesting. And we popped in and there was this guy sitting outside rolling a a Siggy with the trumpet on his lap, and a young guy, like he was being in his twenties. Um, and uh so you walked up to him and said, Oh, you got a gig here tonight? And he's like, uh yes, uh jazz music tonight, uh seven.

Tina Harris

And we did the uh the international symbol for double bass playing like this, and he got very excited and said um to come back. And so we came back that night and the band didn't really speak any English at all.

Mark Harris

Yeah, he was the best and he wasn't great.

Tina Harris

But but but Mark got up and and played you know quite a bit with them and sang a piece of it. And they just threw the music they had this amazing conversation. Everybody knew what to do because it's jazz and and it was a lovely experience. So yeah, I think music is it's m uh incredible international language.

Mark Harris

Yep.

Sinead

I was listening to an interview with Bono from U2, and he said about the band in the early days when they were just getting together. Even though we were really crap, it was brilliant. The noise, the sound of a real drum kit, the silver and gold of the cymbals, the orchestral sound of those cymbals, kind of out-of-tune extraordinariness. How can we encourage kids and adults to just surrender to the play of it and the experimentation and enjoying it? There's so many musicians that are not formally trained that they can still jam and play with a band.

Mark Harris

That's a great question. Um, the first thing is to introduce people to this concept of real instruments because I think uh in this modern world we are bathed in music in esoteric terms constantly coming through the ceiling in the shopping center, uh on the radio, uh everywhere where you walk and every screen you use, there's music everywhere. But um what the connection that's not made is where that music comes from, and it comes from people using these amazing tools called instruments to make them. Uh uh and uh um electronic instruments as well. They're just as much instruments as the violin is, say. Um and so the first thing to do is to um introduce people, and especially as young as you can, to these things called instruments, and that's obviously what Lala's mission is, uh, and then to make them readily accessible and and and cheaply accessible to people um when they're young at school. Schools should have music programs that are funded. Um the Catholic system in uh New South Wales is doing in Sydney is doing a great job at the moment with a program called Amadeus, which is funding teachers and instruments and classroom time to every child in school has access and and and must play a musical instrument uh to a level.

Tina Harris

Um I think also something Chine was saying is um uh to to get away from the feeling that you have to get it right or be perfect when you're playing something.

Mark Harris

Oh, yeah.

Tina Harris

Um and that for me that was the nice thing from coming from a more classical background where things were often examined or marked, or you're given a grade, or you know, there was there was um a critique involved to actually playing a musical instrument for fun and enjoyment and sharing with others. And I think in a way, I was very fortunate to come into Mark's space, his world, where um you know anything correctly, it's just jazz. Um so that for me that and I think um that's been one of the great joys of being in La La as a band. Um I was thinking there was one hilarious instance where we decided we were going to, and this was to try and encourage kids to get on more musical instruments and and do a bit of playing. We had a a section in the show where we'd come down to the front of the stage. Mark would play ukulele, um, I think Tom Tom was on pots and pans, and um Squeezy was on a melodica, and it was kind of like a little acoustic. So we'd do you We would do some um simple nursery song nursery rhymes and get the kids and parents to sing along during this part of the show. But we'd been on a flight and Mark hadn't checked the um ukulele before we started to play. But to tune and it and he'd um-tuned it so that it wouldn't break on the plane. And we got up and he played the first note, and it was so out of tune, it was so bad that the band just got the hysterics and and couldn't stop laughing. And the audience couldn't stop laughing, and it was it was one of the best moments ever. And I think having that fun, that sense of play with music, that's where real enjoyment is.

Mark Harris

I think that's where I um came across the point before that you know, we we uh uh educators love to talk about the benefits of music to early learning and this neurodevelopment and and and the the physical skills and this kind of stuff. But one of the most important parts about it is it's social. It's a music is an activity done by people who get together to make it collectively, and there in in that you learn about fairness and sharing and and um you know working together and teamwork, all those kind of things. And and so yeah, embracing that that social collaborative nature of music is just super important.

Sinead

How has music helped you during a challenging time?

Tina Harris

Oh goodness, music. Wow. Um I I guess the the great thing about music is it it's often ways that you someone might have written or composed a song that taps into the emotion that you are feeling or thinking, or music can help you through certain times of your life.

Mark Harris

Yeah.

Tina Harris

My mother passed away recently, and so I think music has been really valuable to us as a family because she loved rock and roll music. And she used to dress up and dance with her little Bobby socks and do the whole thing. And so um it makes us laugh because um in her car she had a a C D of rock and roll songs.

Mark Harris

So She was not a great lover of music through her whole life. So in your household there might have been two or three records, and that was about it. That's that's it.

Tina Harris

Yeah, that in her in her later life, she just loved rock and roll is and rock and roll dancing. So it just makes us remember her and laugh. So um I think it's yeah, it's hilarious.

Mark Harris

And our eldest daughter who has your mum's car, yeah. Still that C D is the only CD that's allowed in that car, and she listens to it pretty much every time she gets a car just and makes her happy and remember and it's lovely. Yeah.

Sinead

So again, it's that evocative thing you were talking about earlier about how music has that like smells and I'm sorry to hear about your mum, but no matter when or where, it's always uh so hard and so thinking of you there. For our well-being, what positive role does music have on our physiology and our bodies and our spirit? You know, uh comes to mind when I think about laughter and humor and studies show that the more that we have that, it's better for our immune system. And I think music can have a similar role.

Mark Harris

I look, I I think so. Um I'm not a physiologist or a doctor or a researcher in that field, but um I'm a listener of music and I know how great I feel when I listen to music. You know, it um a good example is when you're on a low-haul flight, you know, you can if you sit there and and just let the sound of the engines batter you about, uh, you'll get off that flight feeling exhausted and and and drained. But if you play soothing music through hopefully noise-cancelling headphones, lovely technology, um, you can really mitigate most of the bad feelings of having been stuck on a flight the whole way. It keeps your blood pressure low, it uh you know, just keeps you relaxed and f gets rid of anxiety, etc. Um, this is all anecdotal for me.

Tina Harris

Just to harping back to Dr. Anita Collins, she did this amazing research where um mm mothers would sing to their little ones in like a a nice um rhythmic rocking, nurturing lilting sensation. And then they did a whole lot of experiments where mum would drop some pegs and the children who had just been sung to or experienced that um that moment with their mother showed empathy and picked up the pegs and popped them back in the basket, whereas the little ones who hadn't had that moment didn't do anything. And so there's um there's just I think again, hopping back to the benefits for young children and development, um, there's just so many things that we haven't even, you know, we've just tapped the beginning of the knowledge of how important music is for kids.

Sinead

We live in a world now where everything has a glossy filter on it. And I love when you guys write and do your little posts, you're very upfront about mistakes you make along the way. You've got that levity. Uh you seem to see all these things as learning experiences. And I read in a book recently, you guys might know, uh, I think she goes by Plant Mama, and in her book, she was talking about um a setback is a setup for something else. What have you learned about when you've had to start again or you've had to change direction? Especially being in the arts, which can be quite competitive, or even to get something out for people to discover it.

Tina Harris

I think um probably the most valuable thing someone can say to me in a in an opportunity or business meeting is no. And it's been said to us so many times, and as soon as someone says no to me, I get it between my teeth, and I'm like, we're gonna make this a yes. How do we how do we do it? And so the first thing is to turn it into a maybe and then into a yes. And you know, when we made the first TV series, it was no, no, no, no, no. And to get that series on the ABC took us years um of persistence, and it was a really interesting challenge. Um Yeah, what do you think?

Mark Harris

Oh, I I mean it's not my um thought process, but you know, the only thing I've got to do.

Tina Harris

We have different brains.

Mark Harris

Yeah.

Tina Harris

He he doesn't like challenge and he doesn't like um having to shift. He likes it to be really straight ahead, whereas I love the challenge. And so I guess in Lala, we've had to change tact every seven years. Yeah and at least. So when we first started, it was the music schools, then we shifted to focus on trying to get the TV series and live touring. Then COVID happened, and we basically our business got decimated overnight, and we had to move to online. So then we had to reinvent, like completely reinvent our business model and learn how to make YouTube and um build a studio and learn about cameras and editing and and it's been it's been a massive learning curve, but it's been a really interesting challenge.

Mark Harris

And I think And so many mistakes along the way. But but yeah, but what I was gonna say earlier is that whole whole idea of the only real mistake is a mistake that you didn't learn from, you know, you didn't take as a learning lesson to improve going forward. So and and we tried to not let that happen very often.

Sinead

I want to ask you about your partnership. So last year you celebrated your 25th wedding anniversary. What's it been like to share not only your life with each other, but your work?

Tina Harris

Oh, that's such a good question. I look, I think it's it's really challenging and it's really rewarding all at the same time. Yes. Um, and I think our working relationship has changed a lot from when we first started working together.

Mark Harris

Oh, yes.

Tina Harris

Um, I think we now know what our strengths are and um weaknesses. Weaknesses. And um so Mark is Mr. Detail. He loves um, he's got an incredible sense of detail and he loves a spreadsheet, but he's got a terrible sense of time. Doesn't doesn't Mark will give me we we we now talk about it in Uber minutes. So Mark will say, oh, it's only gonna be one hour, and to me that means four or five, or it could mean eight.

Mark Harris

Yeah, probably probably eight. Yeah. And Tina has this incredible, uh overarching strategic approach to to everything. She's always thinking about five to ten steps ahead, uh, about the way to to to achieve the things that are important to to her and and the business. Um the the the finer detail sometimes can it's just not what interests her. Her idea her her interest is setting up the things in motion, and then she's a great delegator. Okay, let's what do I who do I need to get on board to make this thing happen?

Tina Harris

I do fuzzy math, and my fuzzy math is where I take estimates of big numbers and I can pop them together so that in a meeting someone will say to me, So what do you think that's gonna cost? And I'll go, Oh, yeah, it's gonna be approximately about that. Mark doesn't like that. He likes to know exactly what something's gonna cost. So we often have this conversation of he's like, Oh no, I really need to go. And I'm like, No, no, it's gonna be about that.

Mark Harris

Yeah, you're making trivial assumptions that uh you haven't affected easy often.

Tina Harris

How often is the fuzzy math? Like, seriously. I do I do um Jazz math. Well, it's it's I'm nearly not as good enough. It's I it's a bit sexist, but I I say girl math because I look at something and I go, oh wow, that's on sale. Just um think how much I'm saving.

Mark Harris

One of the great things about her is she's not a huge shopper. I I I married very well. She doesn't collect handbags or expensive shoes or need to go out for fancy dinners. Very, very happy.

Sinead

Very low maintenance.

Tina Harris

Yeah.

Mark Harris

Wonderful.

Sinead

Yeah, you and I both, Tina, you and I both there's very few photos of you two where you're not smiling. And I think that that rubs off it really does. You know, you've got two options in life, whether you're going to be positive and embrace it, or think, uh this hasn't worked out, or this is gonna be challenging. Um you both seem like you're such go-getters and glass half-full people. What has that attitude given you?

Mark Harris

I can't think about I can't stop thinking about our kind of paste it on lala smiles. We've been doing smiles for for like official shoots now for so long that we just have a face that we call. And people put like it doesn't matter if we're with our family, with our kids, we're on the road, whatever. It's just I'm ready to go.

Tina Harris

Um you are down to a fine ass. I look, I think probably um Mark and I are slightly different on this. I think I I'm definitely the glass half full. And depending on what it is, Mark is potentially Mr. Caution and but but more glass half empty. Would that be right?

Mark Harris

I think I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky, ebullient, sort of gregarious, happy kind of person, generally. No, but I but I uh that's true. I I I um I I do think that I'm much more cautious about diving f headlong into a new idea or concept.