An Unexpected Life
An Unexpected Life
Be Sensationally Sun Safe! (Guest Dr. Marguerite Germain)
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SPF, UPF, Heliocare (trademark), dermascopy. What the ??? Sometimes it feels a PhD is needed just to prep for a day in the sun. There are so many myths, truths and little known facts about sun safety coming at us it can be overwhelming. Relax! We’ve got the skinny on your skin!
In this episode of An Unexpected Life, Marianne Banister explores some surprisingly simple ways to be sensationally sun safe this summer - and every day of the year for that matter! Renown dermatologist Dr. Marguerite Germain, M.D. is our guest and she is a wealth of information!
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
✅ The best choices when it comes to sunscreen
✅ Value of UPF 50 clothing and where to find it
✅ Hidden sun risks
✅ Affects of sun, alcohol and your skin
✅ Little known tricks to protect your skin
✅ Why screening is as important as sunscreen
Links
🔶 Why You Need Sun Safe Clothing: https://bit.ly/42qGBP6
🔶 Little Known Tricks to Sun Safety: bit.ly/4cGxQmy
🔶 The Risk of Spray and Aerosol Sunscreens: https://bit.ly/4cmxTEi
🔶 Reef Safe Sunscreen Guide: https://bit.ly/ClaireMarieFoundation
Claire Marie Foundation Mission
“ The Claire Marie Foundation provides clarity and hope in the fight against adolescent and young adult melanoma through awareness, education and prevention.
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Hello, everybody. Welcome. May the sun is out. Summer is just around the corner. And of course, you know that we need to take care of our skin year-round, but let's face it, we're going to be showing a whole lot more of ourselves now than we did in January. It's time to be sensationally sun-safe. Prevention is the cure, as we say at the Claire Murray Foundation. It's just all part of living an unexpected life. Hello again, and thank you for joining us for our podcast. I'm Marianne Bannister with the Claire Murray Foundation. And May is Melanoma Awareness Month. You've probably already seen a lot of advertisements about it. It's something that we will be drilling into you over and over. But you know what? A lot of people think of melanoma as just an old person's condition. It is not. Actually, adolescents and young adults are at great risk for developing melanoma, and that's something we are all about at the Claire Murray Foundation. Here's some statistics to keep in mind. Melanoma is the second most common cancer in adolescents. It is the number one cancer diagnosed in young adults, and the most common cause of cancer death in young women, 25 to 30, and it is even said to be at epidemic proportions by the Skin Cancer Foundation, who notes it's up 253% in the last 40 years. But here is what is so crazy about it. It's 99% treatable if you get it early, if you nip it in the bud. If you have followed my family story, you know that we lost our daughter Claire at the age of 17 to melanoma. She was diagnosed at 14. In her case, the melanoma was hormonally induced. It didn't have anything to do with the son. It's just something that happened to her when she went through puberty. But what's interesting for young people is that there's really this triple threat of developing melanoma. So you could have a genetic component, you could have a hormonal component, and then you have the UV, which is so intense. And young people are out so much and enjoying it as they should be. And that's why you have to be extra cautious and extra in control of your body. But this is what's really cool. This is all in your control. You can control your body, you can control your skin wellness, you can take charge of it because think about it, the skin, which everybody has, is the one type of place you can look. And if you see cancer there, you can stop it. It's the only place you can find cancer early on and take control of it. And so we're going to jump in with some great tips today. One of the best dermatologists that I have met, Doctor, Dr. Marguerite Germain from Charleston, South Carolina. Hi, Margaret. How are you? Hi, nice to see you. You as well. I guess I have to call you Dr. Jermaine since we're being awful here today and everything. But I mean, this is what obviously you're in a sunbelt location. Um, you have this just distinct background of training. And that's why I was so excited that you could join us here today to talk about some of the basic things we need to know to take control of ourselves so that we aren't exposed to melanoma and other skin cancers. So start with some basics. What obviously sunscreen.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, first of all, it's a great honor to be talking to you. And I love your foundation. And it just thrills me that you are so interested in helping everybody to do better for their skin because all of the things that we do to prevent melanoma are also the things that we'll do for later on in life that will make us look better too. So why not start early? So sunscreen, of course, SPF 50. I like SPF 50. Remember that even with SPF 50, 10 to about 2 to 8%, actually, um, percent of the rays still get through. So, you know, you really want to be careful. Wear a hat with a three-inch brim, seek the shade when you can. Only try try to go out early in the morning and late in the evening, avoid the midday sun, wear wraparound sunglasses. Remember that the sun affects your eyes as well. Remember to apply sunscreen, at least a teaspoon on your face, a shot glass full on your body. Remember the tops of your ears. And it's like you said, you know, a melanoma is um relatively preventable. And we have to do whatever we can. We want to have fun in the sun, or we want to do whatever we can to prevent melanoma for sure, at all ages.
SPEAKER_01At all ages. And let's break these down a little bit more specifically because there's so much misinformation. People talk about the general tips, which we all need to know, but it the success is in the details, right? But it getting the weeds a bit. So with sunscreen, so you said 50, so we do not need to worry about an SPF 100 or anything like that, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the actually the FDA only recognizes um SPF up to SPF 60. There are some SPF 60s that are legitimately good, but remember that it logarithmically decreases the benefits of a sunscreen as you get higher. And La Roche Posey and brands like that do make an SPF 100. But as long as you have an SPF 50 plus, it'll say plus on it, FPF 50 plus, I think that uh you're doing all that you can to prevent whatever rays of the sun that you can. Because think about what SPF 50 means. It means you're 50 times more protected than not using any sunscreen at all. That doesn't mean that there's still some rays of the sun getting through and you have to reapply and do all the right things, but you're still protecting yourself, probably the best you can.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so we've got the SPF. We know the sun protection factor, which is what that stands for. Um, so mineral, I mean, people are worried about having chemicals on their skin. And a lot of people won't wear sunscreen because they think the chemicals are more of a risk than actually the UV.
SPEAKER_00Well, the mineral sunscreens are zinc oxide, titanium dioxide, and iron oxides. They're great. They sit on top of the skin. They found by tape studies that there's they don't go through your skin, they stay on the surface. Zinc oxide, zinc zinc oxide, for example, for a little bit, they were looking at nanoparticles of zinc oxide and thinking, well, maybe they get through the skin and can get into your bloodstream, but they don't. They did studies to show that zinc oxide has a charge on it and it stays within your skin. So those are the mineral sunscreens, and I like those the best. But the problem with mineral sunscreen sometimes is that it's not as elegant, not as cosmetically elegant. It's a little bit, you know, it's kind of a little bit more gritty, maybe to put it on, or you know, it just doesn't spread as well. So that's why people like chemical sunscreen. And actually, one of the sunscreens that I use on my face has a little bit of octin octate in it, which is a chemical, but it also makes it beautiful for underneath my makeup. So I would say you have to look at the risk on benefit ratio. And if you're not going to use sunscreen, it certainly is better to use chemical sunscreen. If you're not gonna use the mineral sunscreen because you don't like the way they are, then use chemical. But it is true, you're absolutely right. Chemical sunscreens are absorbed a little bit. They find metabolites in the urine, they find it in the bloodstream. So if you can do minerals, that's probably the best one of the one of the really good sunscreens that I recommend to my patients are the Rose Posey. They have antiothelios, which is such a good sunscreen, and they have 18 different types.
SPEAKER_01Yes, exactly. Under the makeup, it's so light, it isn't chalky, it isn't heavy. I love that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And another one is uh Supergoop, they make a powder sunscreen, which I like for reapplying. Telling my um female patients when they reapply to use that or even in the scalp, you can use the powder on the scalp.
SPEAKER_01Yep, yep, that's absolutely that's what's great about it. You can just tack it into your bag or your take along. It's great. So, another question that I always have, and a lot of people, particularly when they're trying to grab their kids and they're running off at the beach, you've got two little ones and you know how it goes. You're trying to spray sunscreen. I always tell people, uh it's been told to me, and I pass it along, that's not going, that's not doing a whole lot of good right there, right?
SPEAKER_00So the reason why, and that's a great question, and I get that question too with my my patients, and I they tell me they're using it and they come in burnt. So the thing about it is that when you're using a spray, you spray probably less than a milliliter of fluid on there because the sprays are very thin. And when you when you rub it in, you're you're spreading it even thinner. So the problem is you're just not getting enough. So, what I tell my patients that really want to use the spray sunscreen is you have to spray it at least four times. Rub it in, spray it again, rub it in, spray it again. One spray is just not enough. It's just not enough to do enough. Okay, by the time you're doing that, use liquid, right? Yeah, use liquid, even if it's a lotion. I mean, it doesn't have to be a cream, but even if it's a lotion, I just don't like spray sunscreens because anything that's going to make you have the illusion of being protected when you're not, you know, all you need is a really just even one bad sunburn. And you know the statistics about even one bad sunburn can increase considerably the chances of getting melanoma. So you don't even want one bad sunburn. So just try to do whatever you can to do the right things to protect yourself. Okay, so two shot glasses every two hours for a grown up. One shot glass for the body and a teaspoon for the face. And then every two hours reapply, which people don't really do, by the way. I don't think anybody really reapplies. But when you're sweating or you towel off, you want to reapply, really every two hours. We used to say four, but now we say two. A shot glass ball. I mean, for your whole body.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Well, when you think about it, that's that that's a good way to visualize it. And and maybe a golf ball for people who like to play golf. It's like golf. Well, remember that one. Okay. So thinking, but because people don't reapply uh heliacare, I love this. This is something that ever since I've been told about and I've used it, I do not have any sun problems. Uh, one one other dermatologist told me it's kind of like uh sunscreen that you take in a weird, right? So explain what this is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I don't want to give people the illusion that taking helicare is a substitute for sunscreen. I love helicare. And actually, I love sunscreens that have antioxidants in them because if you think about it, like I told you, some of the UV gets through, even with the best sunscreens. So then you have another layer of protection because if some of the UV gets through and causes free radicals, you have something to quench that free radical cascade. So, what Helicare is, it's um it's a fern extract that you can't supplement. Let's just qualify that, that you can take each morning, right? It's over the counter and you can take it and you can retake it during the day. I often take it every morning, even though I hardly get any sun. But I walk from my from my uh from my office to my car, I figured, well, that's enough sun. Because remember, sun's uh sun protection is all the time, and even incidental sun exposure is not good for you. But I don't want people to think that taking helio care is going to protect them completely. But antioxidant, and what it does is it actually works a little bit after the fact. So when the UV kind of gets to your skin and causes some of those three radicals, those antioxidants quench those radicals so they can't damage your DNA and they can't damage your collagen.
SPEAKER_01It's a tag team. You use both together, but if you forget to reapply or it's been a half hour and you're like, oh yikes, I should have done it already. You already have a little bit of cover.
SPEAKER_00You have a little bit. We used to kind of say that it kind of gives your body SPF 8, but we can't really say that because we don't really, we can't sub, you know, we can't really, we don't know exactly what it's doing, but we know that it helps.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And and and as you were saying, it's like the sun is everywhere, incidental kind of places you do not think about. Like I was shocked when my derm told me, oh, you should put on sunscreen when you're flying.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Wait a minute, explain this.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. And people are like, wait, what, why? Like I'm in the I'm on the plane. But remember that every thousand feet you go up, you gain four percent UVA. So if you're flying at 30 or 40,000 square feet, it's not square feet, but if you're flying at 30 to 40,000 feet above you know sea level, you are getting so much more UVA. And the windows in the back of the plane are acrylic or polycarbonate. So all that UVA gets through. And there are there are people who have studied this and said that if you're sitting near a window with your shade up, it's and you sit there for an hour with that direct sun on you, you're it's equivalent to spending 20 minutes in a sun booth in a sun. Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? It's that bad. Wow. In the front of the plane where the pilot sits, it's a little bit better because they have to laminate that glass so it doesn't uh shatter. So there is some protection, but not that that much because they there's um there's indications that pilots and flight attendants do get a little bit more skin cancer than the regular population. So they must be getting a lot more when they're up at higher altitudes, and that makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_01And so obviously, when you're traveling at a higher altitude, when you're up in the mountains or anything like that, that plays out as well. But then also it sneaks in, uh, well, not really sneaky because one thing we love to do road trips, you pop the top, but even coming through the windshield or the driver's side, like I notice I, you know, get more on my left shoulder and left arm than I will on my right.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Well, that's very clear. When patients come to me, you can tell, especially, you know, at our age. Sorry, I mean, I'm sorry to put you in that category. But you know, the left side always is worse than the right. And patients get more skin cancers on the left side. But there are things that you can do. You can get film for your car window, you can get clear film, and the clear film actually, the adhesive on the film blocks the UVA. So UVB is basically blocked by the window itself because it's a shorter wavelength. UVA passes through, but you can actually block out that UVA by doing clear film. So even though you have tinted film from a uh, you know, that you might have gotten on your car when you bought it, you can additionally put on film that blocks out the rest of the UVA. It's not just for the UVA and protecting your skin, it's actually cooler, it keeps your skin cooler. Like you said, I'm in this very sunny area and keeping my car cooler on the inside is great. So it works for that as well. But you're exactly right. If you're going on a road trip, you have to be so careful. And when I rent a car, like if I go to another city and rent a car, I can really tell the difference between my car and that car, just because my car has the film. And you can put clear film on the front window. You know, you can't really tint the window in the front because that's not legal to do that. But you can put clear film with the adhesive and it blocks all the EVA.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that's something I hadn't heard about. Okay. So I'm sure there's there's car dealers or places to go and have that done professionally, right? That's not something you're gonna super glue on your windowshield. Interesting. Maybe we could come up with something now licenses I'll have going on. Um, talking about fashion and being sun safe, and we all have the excuse to go shopping from time to time, right? But this is one thing I am so surprised at our awareness events when we're talking about all the things you and I are sharing today. People do not understand that they can actually burn through their clothing. They'll come in and say, Oh, look at me, aren't I good? I I have this long sleeve tee on. And I'll say, Is it UPF 50? And they're like, No, I'm wearing sunscreen. And I was like, no, that's SPF. UPF is ultra protection factor, which is woven into clothing or chemically induced into clothing and blocks 98% of the sun. But if you don't wear that, uh it's only blocking 6%. And people are astounded to hear that.
SPEAKER_00That's true. Most clothing, especially like a thin t-shirt, is only like SPF six. I mean, that's you know, that's really hardly anything. The UPF, like you were talking about, is so important to get UPF clothing. Covering up with clothing is the best way to protect yourself because you don't really need to reapply anything. You've already got it covered in. There's so many great brands now. There's um, there's Coolabar, and what that well should I recommend for my patients? Solumbra, and there's something called Solbari. And even if you go to Lily Pulitzer or if you go to Tommy Bahama, they're all making UPF clothing now. So you don't have to feel like it's kind of you know old-fashioned or whatever. There's fun stuff in surfing stores, they have it, and sailing stores, they have it. So it's uh it's fun to buy new clothing. Why not go shopping, right? It's an excuse to go shopping.
SPEAKER_01It absolutely and and Zags, I know, which is a South Carolina company, have these great wraps. I give them as baby gifts because if you because again, babies under six, you can't put sunscreen on, right? Under six months, rather. Uh, it's not six years old. But you know, you can take this UPF cover and at least put it over the stroller and and know that they're going to be well taken care of.
SPEAKER_00Well, babies that are less than six months old, this they um the sunscreen is not bad for them. Like if you had sunscreen that has minerals, it's not bad for them. But you don't want kids to be out in the sun that are that young because they don't have temperature control and they get a heat stroke very easily. So that's why that recommendation is made. It's not because it's bad for them to have it less than six months old, but they shouldn't be out in the sun. So, you know, you should try to keep them out of the sun as much as you can. So something like that that covers them is great, or just try not to bring them outside, especially in the midday sun.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. And when they're in the car, right? That's something again because if it's coming in through the windows, that's another reason uh to put that in. Um, let's talk about skin screenings because obviously you have presented skin screenings for our screening program. Uh I it's hugely important to detecting this at the very earliest stage. And that's really the key because again, people, I think there's such a hesitancy to go into a screening because people don't know what to expect, or they think they're going to come out with a huge scar, or they think there's some big machine that's gonna be going over them like an MRI or something. And it's just such a simple procedure, and it should become such a routine part of life. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of it and just kind of describe how it happens and what's going on?
SPEAKER_00Well, it was such an honor to do those skin cancer screenings for you, and you we did find some lesions that needed to come off during those screenings. So that was great that you did that. But when you're talking about the age group that you're talking about, because you know, I guess people kind of realize that, you know, they might get skin cancer later on in their life. They just don't realize, they're like, wait, what? Why do I need a sun? Why do I need a skin cancer screening? I'm only in my teens or I'm only in my early 20s, but that's when you need to start. I tell people they need to start in puberty because that's when things can change. And you can have moles that change, and there's estrogen receptors on melanocytes, testosterone receptors, there's thyroid hormone receptors on melanocytes. So things can really change, and you need to find a board-certified dermatologist to go to. And if that's not possible, then you need to do exams at home. I tell my patients that, you know, maybe I tell them even when they uh are coming to see me every year, I tell them every month, stand in front of a full-length, well-lit mirror, look at the front of you, then take a handheld mirror, look at the back of you, underarms, private areas, palms, soles, everywhere. When you go to the hairdresser, make sure they're looking through your hair. And if they see anything brown, black, red, or flush color, doesn't have to be black, you know, let me know. And then when they go to the GYN, they need to look there. And if your GYN is watching something, like like they say, just let's just watch it. It doesn't look that bad. They should just take it off. And you should have a low, a low um kind of threshold if your dermatologist says, you know what, maybe this, maybe this doesn't really look that that great, but maybe we'll recheck it in a few months. Just get it off. It's just better to take it off. And when you go to a dermatologist, they should be using a derm light. I don't know if you can see this, but this is a derm light. And the derm light, I have a bigger one too. That um using a derm light is very important because it's polarized light and you can look deep into a lesion. So you can see the vascular patterns, you can see the pigment patterns. So you need to choose a good dermatologist, and then you really need to follow through. And you need to follow through yourself if you see anything that's growing, changing, bleeding, not healing, something that feels funny, some of that itches, bring it to their attention and get it off. And you're right, you don't want to get a big scar, but you also don't want to miss any skin cancers.
SPEAKER_01No, because particularly in young people, it's so much more aggressive and invasive. So it can change and be go from zero to 800 pretty darn quick, which we found out the hard way. But but also, and just to clarify, it's like even if you go to your gynecologist and they say it's it's okay, but it's changing, you really shouldn't go with that or a pediatrician or an internist, because you guys, the dermatologists, you are the ones who are trained to use dermoscopy and can see it because if they're seeing something with a naked eye, so probably a change is already underway, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, very true. But if your primary care provider or your OBGYN or whatever doctor you're going to points something out, you know, I don't want people to wait to get into their dermatologist or whatever. You know, we you need to get that off. However, you can, you need to get that off. Because, like you said, especially in adolescence, and the reason why it's so aggressive in adolescence is because there's many factors that can affect the growth, but also because adolescents are not looking. For these, and they're not looking for the changes that can occur. And also doctors are, I'm sorry to say this, but doctors are not looking for melanoma and adolescence. They think that it's so rare that it's not something they need to look for. So I'm sorry to say that, but I mean, you have to be a little bit proactive sometimes too.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and that's what we're trying to do is kind of change the understanding among the medical profession and as well as the consumerslash patient. And as, you know, just to stand up for yourself and advocate for yourself and understand that you're in control of your body because, you know, it's it's scary. It's scary to find something on it, but it's a whole lot worse if you ignore it because it will not just go away. So it's best to nip it in the bud, and then you can just turn it into a routine thing where you get screened once a year and you go out and you swim and you have a great time. And and things like I have found out that even of course in the summer when you're going to the beach or at you know at the lake or whatever, you know, we all we all like to have a good time. And but drinking alcohol can actually make your body more susceptible to burning, which is another aspect and antibiotics that you take, right?
SPEAKER_00And and things like actually a lot of drugs that do the antibiotics, some antidepressants, NSAID, celebrex, I mean things like, and also dermatology things like accutane, using retin um tretinoin or retin-A, using um adaplene or tzerotine. There's lots of things, and some anti-uh hypertensive medications, um, some cardiac medications. So check and see if it's going to make you more sun sensitive. But like you said, I don't want to be a downer either. I want people to have fun in the sun. Just be smart about it.
SPEAKER_01That's just it. It's like you don't, it doesn't mean you don't you wrap yourself in bubble wrap and you don't leave the house. That's not what we're talking about. All these tools that you're giving us allows everybody just to, you know, go out and do what they will. And and I think I was sharing with you at one of our screenings, I had a um a young man who was just very unhappy that he had to spend a Saturday coming in getting screened. And he didn't see the reason why. And I asked him, I said, Well, do you wear a seatbelt when you drive with your mom? And he said, Well, sure. And I said, Why is that? It's like, well, I mean, some crazy guy might hit us in the side and you know, I'd get hurt. I was like, exactly. But you probably won't. But if you do, then you're protected. And this is the whole thing. It's like you have to protect yourself just in case. And not that you expect it's gonna happen and not that it should limit your life or your joy or doing anything out there. Um, but in the summer, in particular, particularly in Charleston, you know, hitting the waves, just walking around. You've really got to be careful in the sun.
SPEAKER_00You know what I do though is what I wake up, I brush my teeth, I put my sunscreen on. Some people think, oh, well, I'm not going to the beach today. Yes, but you're walking to get your mail, you're coming to see me, so you're walking from your car to the building. Incidental sun exposure is significant. I mean, it adds up to hours a week. And also, people have to realize that sun damage is cumulative over your entire lifetime. The skin remembers every second from the time you were a baby, every moment that you spend in the sun is remembered by your skin. So that's why you have to be careful.
SPEAKER_01Well, a couple more things, too. And just thinking about young people, you know, they need to be aware that it's also, let's just talk to the ego. You know, you want to look your best for the duration of your life. So protect your skin and it will protect you. But the other thing, let's touch on it, is indoor tanning and the craziness of this because I I don't get me started. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but you know, one time in a tanning booth can increase your risk 75%.
SPEAKER_00One time in a tanning booth, 75% increase of melanoma in your lifetime.
SPEAKER_01Well, and explain why it damages the skin so much more, because we see the result right away, right? And it's so intense.
SPEAKER_00It's like we said, it's like being up 40,000 um feet in the air. All of that UVA is if the UVB is not part of that spectrum that they use. They use UVA because those are the tanning rays, but they magnify it multiple times so that it's so intense on your skin and it damages your DNA. It causes free radicals in your skin, takes away your collagen, takes away your lessin. You know, God forbid you should get in your eyes. It can burn your cornea. You know, it's so damaging. So I hope that, you know, your audience really at least takes this to heart. Never go tanning, ever, ever, ever.
SPEAKER_01And the whole thing is, it's it is addictive. They have done studies where they found that, you know, the sun makes you feel good, but it the endorphins in your body react to it. And um, there are people that will say, well, yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna go again. Well, maybe just one more time, just what and they just get caught up in it. And it will not give you a base tan. It will do no good except cause damage, correct?
SPEAKER_00It's not healthy, but you're right though, it does release endorphins in the brain when you get a tan, and you know, chocolate releases endorphins, exercise releases endorphins. So maybe find something else, you know, that's healthy. Um, you know, don't eat like a lot of chocolate, but a little bit of chocolate, and then exercise and socializing and having a good you know community around you that also releases endorphins. So find other things that you can do. But you're right, unfortunately, is a little bit addictive. And I hate to even think about that, but there's other things that you can do to release endorphins.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there is. I like it. Can I do chocolate while I'm exercising? One push-up, one Hershey's kiss. Oh yeah, that sounds great. That's so good. We, you know, we that out, you know. Dr. Jermaine, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for being part of our Claire Marie Medical Advisory and doing all you do to help us get the word out there for all these young people. And I it's a great excuse. Time to go shopping, time to go get some fresh stuff for summer since we're heading that way right now. But and again, it's just been such a delight to see you here today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00And I hope we inspired people to do the right things for themselves. And I I admire you, and I am so happy for all that you do. You're helping people that you don't even realize, touching many, many lives. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you so much. And if you want to find out more about what Dr. Jermaine and I've been talking about today, of course, you can go to our website, ClaireMarieFoundation.org. Also, there'll be notes and links uh in our episode notes here when you go and look at us where you find your podcast. And also, special thanks today to our mission sponsors who help create this podcast for us, Castle Biosciences and Children's Cancer Foundation. So until next time, adventures await you. Go out, have a wonderful day, a wonderful life, and live life like Claire. We'll see you again.
