Koinonia Chat Moises Ortiz

Date: 4/12/2026

Location: Main Hall of Trinity Baptist Church in Renton, WA

Series: Koinonia Chat

Speakers: Moises Ortiz and Drew Tillman

In this interview Pastor Drew talks with Pastor Moises (Crossway Fellowship) about his sermon on the ascension of Christ, his conversion, the war for the glory of God, and lots more. We hope as you listen you are encouraged and stirred up to love and good works! *We do apologize the audio ends abruptly at 52:46*

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Yes, yes. Alright. Well welcome back everybody. Thank you all for staying. Um at least it's always been a lot of fun. And I think it's just been a blessed time for everybody. So thank you all for being here. Uh I'll open this in prayer and then we'll uh interrogate interrogate you in a kind way. Uh our Father in heaven, Father, we love you so much. We thank you for how kind you are to us. You have saved people, Lord, all over our area and all over your world. And we thank you for this time now that we can just learn a little bit about how you're working among your people at Crossway Fellowship, how you worked through uh Pastor Moises calling him here. Uh Lord, we do pray that just through this conversation this time that uh your church would be built up and that Christ would be glorified. Praise in Jesus' name. Amen. Well, thank you again, brother. Uh before we dive in, um I just want to say uh like I mean this is my notes. You see how many pages I have. Um now there are people who take better notes than me. So if you take more organized notes and you could share those with Pastor Moises, that would be better because mine looks like chicken scratch. Uh but I mean you just as you kept preaching, there was just so much that I was like, man, like I want to reflect on this later, I want to reflect on this later. That's why I have six pages here. Uh that I can't get to all of them. Um but but thank you. Have you preached that text before?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

I did, yeah. So we uh we did like a series on the good news. So we started on eternity past all the way to eternity future, so we cover incarnation, the ministry of Christ, uh death, resurrection, ascension, present reign. Uh I think it was a very fruitful time for us, and just to have a better notion of the redemptive story.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Thanks, brother. Are those somewhere online?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

They should be. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Um well, just so normally what we do here is you know, we'll have the time after the service where we fellowship a little bit, and then we all disperse to study groups, some go home. Um, but in my study group, uh, we always go around and just kind of cultivating like a positive view of the preaching of God's word. Uh, whoever's preaching only is me, but but we say how are you challenged or how are you encouraged? And so I just want to answer that you know really quickly. I I think I was challenged just from your list there at the end, you know, of how this changes our our life. Um and if I didn't get this right, then correct me. Uh but you said it changes how we live because it's the foundation of our mission. Um just especially as as a pastor, and I know you feel this too, just being reminded and challenged, like what what's the ground of my work of of me proclaiming the gospel? Is it in the the personal work of Christ? Is it in his uh ruling and his reigning? Uh so that was very helpful. And man, like I I thought uh I'm not a big crier, but uh there toward the beginning, just when when you started uh really just just preaching the gospel, uh talking about the symbolism of the the cloud, that how Christ is exalted. Um yeah, I mean you almost brought me to tears just thinking about his uh I can't even get my notes here, but entering his presence, uh, you know how he how he sits down. Uh that was just so yeah. Thank you, brother. Uh really appreciate it. Um so enough about me. And uh where where tell us about you? Who are you? Where did you grow up? Uh my kids were fascinated by your name. Uh yeah, biography, family, just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah, born uh born and raised in Mexico City. Um grew up in a Christian household. Uh my something that is not normal in in Mexico. My great-grandmother on my mom's side uh started attending a Christian evangelical church in 1928, uh, which is not common uh in Christian churches. Most of the time, people are new converts or parents were converts, but not it doesn't go many generations. On my dad's side, we we don't really know well. My dad knows that my grandfather was a deacon at a Baptist church, but he died when my dad was three years old. Um, and then I think the church went through a split or something. So my dad grew up as a non-Catholic, but not not really a believer. Um, I think he thought he was until recently that he learned he was not. Um so attending church with my mom, mainly my grandma, my aunt. My dad was never uh coming to church with us, but I grew up in that. Um yeah, only child. I mean, um I have a I have two older sisters, but I don't have a relationship with them as my father's first marriage. Um so yeah, not really relationship. So only child for the most for for the practicality of life. Um and yeah, I grew up in the church. Um I like going to church. I was I was a kid that enjoyed going to church, but I I I think I became a believer more around my 20s. Um not a real grasp of sin. Um definitely a teenage, my teenage years, living a very duplicitous double life. Uh, you know, good good Christian church, uh, so good Christian kid on Sundays, and um living as a rabble. Uh but but but the bad kind, because I was it was not in the open, right? Like uh there was a lot of things that I confessed to my mother when I was like 30-something years old.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Um things that what happened when we were 20.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

I mean, well, things that she didn't know, and and I never had the conviction of confessing those things, uh, just things that I did on a hidden way. Um, I I remember two uh two instances in my life that were very shocking. Uh the first one in high school. Uh one of my classmates, he was a Christian. And when I told him, like, I'm a Christian too, he said, really? Not in a judgmental way, he was really honestly surprised. And I realized, oh, it it really doesn't show. Um, and then I remember hearing a sermon from someone, I can't remember who, but um, he was challenging us who grew up in Christian households, saying, you know, like the devils tremble when they hear the vo the name of God. And some of you guys don't. And I realized I didn't. Um, so that was two moments that I clearly remember that make me doubt if I was a believer, a Christian. Uh, so pretty much a nominal until the Lord took, I think, a good grasp of my heart and gave me clarity of my sin, and how prevalent sin was, and how much I enjoyed sin, and how good it was I was at lying and being deceiving, and it terrified me. There was a point where I was so afraid of being so good at lying, so good at pretending, um, and the Lord removed that uh on on a very beautiful and powerful way, but it was very shocking. I was very stressed by that. Um, I really think like if I can lie like this, if I can lie with a like not even a a sweat, uh where's my life going to end? Um where could this lead? And that was terrifying. And I realized I couldn't stop on my own, so the need of Christ became super evident. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Praise the Lord. But so all that's happening in Mexico City, yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

How did I go here?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Yeah, I mean, is it a normal pathway Mexico City to Seattle?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Um no, so um, yeah, so I start um again, I attended church my whole life, but uh around my twenties, um I started realizing like a love for the word of God, so I started attending a little Bible institute in Mexico. Um and with that I and I realized like I was arranging most of my life around the church's calendar. So even what I my job and everything was around the church's calendar. So I realized I wanted more, more instruction, more training. Um, and there was not a real like well-established solid seminary in Mexico. So I started looking for options in the US. Um I was connected because of the the ministry they have done in the Spanish-speaking world with the John MacArthur uh materials. So Master's seminary became a uh uh a thought for me. Um I attended one of those conferences, the Shepherd's conference in 2015. I went to a prospective student launch. Um I don't know. I was very happy and not I haven't decided at that point I want to go, but I was like, oh, this would be great. And then I started thinking when I go back to Mexico, and like I started thinking, thinking, thinking like I want to go to seminary, and then I had a moment of like panic when I realized like I don't have a Bible in English. I've I don't even know the names of the books of the Bible in English. How am I gonna study theology and Hebrew in English? So I got like panic a little bit, called a friend, one guy that I knew from Mexico who got married to an American gal from the Lingwood area. So I I called him and I was like, You're the only person that I know that is in ministry in the US. And I don't even know my English is gonna be good enough for school. So he was very kind. He offered me to come uh to the US for four months. He was like, Well, I'll try to get you connected to a church, you can do an internship, and then you can see if you want to do that and if your English is good enough. So I said, okay. So I came in March of 2017, from March to July. I did an internship in a church, sweet church, doctrinally not in the same place. Um by the grace of God, I talked to this church and said, you know, like thank you for the internship. I enjoy it, I'm enjoying it, but I would like to attend a different church on Sundays, and they were fine with that. They're like, Yeah, you can do that. So I went to the Master Seminary website, I typed the zip code, and the closest church to my friend's house was Crossway Fellowship. So uh we were in a very old, ugly building. So I went on a their website said that they had something on a Friday, so I went on a Friday. The website was super out outdated. So I go on Friday, nothing's going on, I knock at the door, and just by looking at the building, I was like, maybe this thing is abandoned. Uh maybe there's no church here. So I sent an email to the uh pastor, he replied, he was like, no, no, our building is just ugly, it's not abandoned. Uh, we're here, we'll be here on Sunday. So I I went to um to Crossway. I remember a week before Good Friday in 2017, and everything, the singing, the the preaching, I was like, wow, this is amazing. So I started attending everything that I could for those four months. Like, I'm here for an internship, so I was going to I think four Bible studies. I started doing everything. I I didn't go to the women's Bible study because they didn't let me. Uh but I was doing everything. Uh I felt like it like on Disneyland. Uh so those four months led into Crossway offer me an internship. Um, and they offered me to come and do school remotely and do an internship with them. So I went back to Mexico, did my um my my on my paperwork for a student visa. So I went back to Mexico in July and I came back as a student in uh October of 2017 and then as an intern at Crossway 2017. So that's how I ended up here. Uh it was funny. I I just contacted my friend. I knew he lived in Washington, I thought DC. I didn't know, you know, like when I look in the map, like, whoa, that's very far. And the only notion that I had of Seattle was the Seahawks because it was, I mean, help me here, guys. It was 2015, so you guys won the Super Bowl near that. So that was my only reference to Seattle. I knew nothing. By the grace of God, my mom organized like a goodbye party, and one of my uncles researched Seattle, and he gave me as a goodbye present a raincoat. And he said, I know that where you're going is very rainy. And I was like, Oh really, I didn't know that. I come here, it's it's March. Right? So Mexico, like, it's warm. It's like, I don't know, 72 degrees in March in Mexico, 68. So I come here, I go down to the airport, it's freezing, it's raining, like, what is going on? What am I doing here? Um, and the most shocking thing, I think, for me in in that was the next day, I don't know, it was probably like 50 degrees, seeing someone in shorts and a t-shirt running because it was some level of sun. Um, so that was I I knew knowing nothing. The the Lord has been so kind. I'm down in Mexico, this has to be September. And my parents are like, so where are you gonna live? I don't know. But the pastor says it's gonna work out. Okay, like you're going with a student visa, can you work? Like, I don't think so. Like, how are you gonna earn money? Like, I I don't know. Like, but this pastor says it's gonna work out. So there was like four basic questions like where are you gonna live? How are you gonna make money? Basic things that I my answer was like, I don't know. Uh and I I reflect back some years later and I learned the providence of God through those years. Um, I I was able to tell because I was a student for four years, student visa. So I told someone like the Lord is so incredible. I lived in one of the most expensive cities of the United States without a job for four days, so there was not a single day that I didn't have a bed to sleep and put in front of me. Uh and the Lord taught me his providence and his kindness. So I I will not change anything from that. It's been I feel in Disneyland still since that 2017. It's been amazing.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

That's incredible. Uh so it's coming up on nine years?

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah, coming up, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

So then going back a little bit. So you become a Christian in Mexico City and you kind of start exploring maybe being a pastor. Are you preaching in in there? Like Spanish or Yes. Okay, so you preach in in Mexico City in Spanish.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Uh we come here in Crossway Fellowship, all the other services are in English.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Everything. Yeah, the only Hispanic in the church.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yes. Okay. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Okay, so you fit right in.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We joke, like my wife and I are the diversity in the church. Uh that's it. Uh so yeah, I had the chance to preach in Mexico. Uh I grew up, so I grew up in a brethren church.

unknown 16:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Which uh and they had this kind of like practice of men at a certain point need to try and preach. So someone had the very irresponsible decision to make me preach when I was like 17 or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

If I What was your text? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 16:50

I was something around Christmas time, and I don't know, I'm probably just butchered that text. Um praise the Lord, they were not recording at that time.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

It's probably horrible. Uh so now you're you're an intern, prosper fellowship. Yes. Uh but now you're your pastor. Yes. You're one of the pastors, one of the elders. Yes. But now you're married. Yes. So you're no longer alone in Linwood. Correct. How did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 17:18

I mean, the providence of the Lord. Um my plan was always to go back to Mexico. Um, I'm I'm about to be 40 years old. And in my mind, so I I grew up again in a in a church with men who had a good intention but very little training. And many of the churches around me were like that. So my desire was I receive all this training, and I'm single. So I would like to go back and serve those churches who have no training. So I can go down and probably if two churches in the States support me, I can go down and spend two years with one two churches, help them, grow them, then move, do the same thing in a different place. So that was the original plan. Um, but at that time, uh, our our teaching pastor, he was in the process of looking for a different um place for ministry, that it was better for his family. So my plan was to leave in 2022, go back to Mexico. But in 2021, our our pastor resigned. Um so we had a year. Um I I told the elders, like, well, I can cover the pulpit for a year. This will be great training for me, um, as you guys find a pastor. So we did uh the whole process of looking for a for a pastor, a candidate came, it didn't work out, uh, after a lot of work, a lot of effort from the church. And now I know these are a couple of people that were part of this team to find a new pastor suggested why not Moises. And the elders had in mind, well, he wants to go back to Mexico, we don't know. They talked to me, and I my mind was totally go to Mexico, but when they suggested the opportunity to stay, and and I realized it was almost heartbreaking seeing a candidate coming and not being a good fit. And I just look at my church that I love profoundly like I can't leave. But I told them, like, are you guys sure? Like, once of all, I'm the only one that is not an English speaker in the church, and you're gonna have me 50 minutes talking in front of English speakers. Like, are you guys sure? And second, we're not a big, massive church, and immigration is expensive. Uh, are you guys sure? And they were like, Yeah, we we want you. And so um in October of 2021, they installed me as an elder and then notified the church that I was a new pastor. And since then, October 2021, I've been the teaching pastor of Crossway.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Praise the Lord. Yeah. And you've been married to Emily now for a year.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

For a year, almost a year, June 28th will be a year, yes. So Emily came to the church uh 2022 uh just as a member, um, and we she believed that I didn't like her as a person in the beginning. Uh and the reality, like as a single man, I was trying to be very cautious with single women in the church. And um, but we got to have a great conversation one time uh around membership, um, and then we started talking in a very casual way about the weather. Uh true Mexican, I was like loving the sunny days through Seattle lights. Like, I miss the rain after four days of sun. I was like, what is wrong with you? So that led into texting conversation, and one one thing kind of like moved to the other, and the Lord has blessed me with a precious wife, and I'm beyond grateful. I stopped praying for that, I stopped I stopped looking for a companion, and the Lord blessed me beyond my my best dreams. So yeah, I'm very happy.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Amen. Well, we can keep going for a long time, but we only have till 12, and I uh I want you to tell us about just the church a little bit more. Yes. And I'll kind of set it up with uh remember last year Tyler Whitman came and preached. It was on Philippians 2. Well, Tyler's a part of a pastor's group in after he was preaching here, and then he was about to go preach at a conference down south in Graham. And uh at that conference, one of the pastors mentioned Crossway Fellowship down. In his introduction, just as a sweet story of this church in Limbood that was just had faithfully in the world. So would you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, I knew you, I didn't know much about your church, but listen that's just such a beautiful testimony of the Lord's word. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

So in our church, by the grace of God, there are several families that have a member or members in their family affected by disabilities. It's an important part of who we are as a church. And we had a family, young family, with their oldest son had a specific disability that produced very violent seizures. So a week before our wedding, um, it was it was Saturday. I was having my family was over to attend the wedding, I was having breakfast with them, and they flew up from Mexico City, everybody's in Mexico. So we're in celebratory mode, and um that Saturday morning I received a phone call from a chaplain that notified me that this five-year-old boy passed after a very violent seizure in the night. And uh it was very shocking. Um so I I told my family, like, okay, yeah, you guys go and do whatever you guys need to do. I need to go and I need to write a different sermon for tomorrow. Um so the church immediately rallied around this family, and it was beautiful, it was beautiful just to see that as elders, our job was to control the generosity of the church. Say, calm down, we'll let you guys know. But everybody was just ready to jump in and help. And through that week we mourned with that family, uh, the loss of of their five-year-old, uh, very, very difficult process. Um, but I by the grace of God, this family felt loved and cared for. And Emily and I had a little bit of like do we keep going with the wedding? Like, we I don't feel that I can celebrate in a week after this five-year-old passed, and we had the conversation, we were like generally troubled by that. And we heard from people from the church and these family, the parents of these five-year-old, um telling us, please go on with your wedding. So we we saw a picture of our church grieving and mourning with those who were grieving and mourning and celebrating uh at the same time in the same week. It was such a testimony of the people of God, because we were able to be by the side of this family, and we still are by the grace of God, and the church also was celebrating with us. So seeing that, like the the the broken heart of a church for this family, and at the same time, the pieces of that heart rejoicing with us, celebrating was was a testimony was very powerful. So, yeah, I shared that with Mike that he preached that. Actually, Mike is preaching for me today. Um, so he was very impacted by that, and I will say this it will it was very impactful, but it's when I tell the story that I realize the magnitude of that, that by the grace of God is I'm not surprised that Crosswave responded like that. So that that that's just amazing in itself that what the Lord has done in that congregation.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Praise the Lord, thanks for sharing. Um, speaking of them, what's what's always asked? Like what's one thing you missed about being with your your people this morning?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Ah, it's like what do you like about children? You know. I I will say this. I don't know that I'm gonna be able to answer the question the way you're probably asking it, but I'll say this. We Emily and I had the privilege to go on vacation to New York on a Sunday. And we attended church and it was great, but we were we were in a subway in New York going somewhere else, and we were like watching the service on the phone of Crossway. It's missing family. I mean, I love our people, how we sing, uh the love and compass and compassion, the passion for the word of God. I love our elders, it's an amazing group of men, our servants in the church. I I would say something that is very unique, I think, to Crossway is this disabilities ministry. Um because it's not just a ministry, these are people, these are our friends, these are uh daughters, siblings. Um there's uh I'll tell you this quick story that we had a young family, a new family coming, visiting the church, and and there's one teenage girl that has a very unique complex disability. She she lacked, she's missing a chromosome. And she gets overly stimulated, so she can just she's non-verbal and she can just start screaming out of the blue. And um and she loves to smell my hair, by the way. So we we do that before the service and after the service. But um we were about to start the service and she she screamed pretty loud, and this new family kind of like turned, kind of like, what is that? And then they turned again and a second moment, and then they told me this at the end of the service. The the wife realized that they were the only ones turning. They realized, oh, these people know this girl, they know exactly what is going on, they know exactly what is happening. No one is turning because this is normal for them. Uh, so that was very impactful for her to the point that they stopped turning because they realized they were the only ones turning. And then they realize that there's a dynamic where uh these friends uh and and brothers and sisters with disabilities are part of the life of the church, and uh we have commitment to it. Actually, Eric leads one uh this ministry, and he helps with every other week they have a special class, and then the other week they join us in service. And we're far from being a perfect church doing this, but there's a love and a compassion and a passion to not just entertain them, but to disciple them, to evangelize them, to show the care and compassion of Christ for families affected by disabilities. So if I could choose one thing, if you ask me, what do you think is the most pretty thing about your wife? Like, well, all of her is beautiful, but if I have to choose one thing of crossway, is that.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah. Thank you, brother. And then what's uh what's one thing that encouraged you about being with us?

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Oh, I was just talking with Eric, just seeing a church doing different things, but loving the Lord, loving his word, I mean, seeing you, brothers, serving your people, uh, it's just beautiful that we don't need to be constrained or even distracted by the form of how we do certain things, but that the passion for the word of God, the exposition of the word of God, and the people of God worshiping him is what unites us. So it was just uh we're really planning like how how can we make people from our church visit other churches to see the unity that we have in the gospel regardless location or even style? So that was very encouraging to see a congregation loving the Lord, loving his word, praising uh praising him. Uh so that was wonderful, it was a great gift for us.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Thank you, brother. All right, so we have 30 minutes. Okay. And there's a lot that I think you can help us think think about. Maybe we can spend a little more time thinking about your uh your congregation's ministry uh for people with disabilities, but because it may take a long time, but I want to jump into singing. Yes. Christians and what like we sing. Uh you preached a sermon you said a couple weeks ago. A couple weeks ago. So let me let me set it up uh just with this little portion of a sermon that uh Robert Mary McShane preached. Uh I'll read just a couple paragraphs, uh he's preaching through uh Psalm 37, and his his third point is that the Christians cannot sing in captivity. Uh and so here's here's what he says, and maybe this can help us just think about uh singing that uh so it was with Israel. They had their hearts, but they hung them up in the willow trees. They said, How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? So it is with the believer in darkness. He cannot sing. Every believer has a heart, every heart that has been made new is turned into harp of praise, succumbed to the land which will get a blood, harp of pure gold. But whenever the believer is in darkness, his heart is on the willows. But he says, and here's why uh a person like this has no sense of pardon, they have no sense of the presence of God, they have no view of the promised land. Um he concludes that section by saying, Learn from this that it is an evil thing and bitter to forget Christ and to go into captivity. Are you able to sing your song? Do you have uh your harp always in tune? Oh then, live by faith, keep close to Christ. That might not be the most like similar trust, like here's how you go through Psalm 37. Um but anyway, like I uh it was helpful for me just just to think about that. So I know you're passionate about what Christians sing. Um why do we sing? Should even men sing? Uh did McShane kind of stir up any thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah, I mean, I have a friend that says that life is too short to sing bad theology. Um and and I think it's absolutely true. Um I I have a particular conviction that what we sing informs so much of how we think. Um and I understand this. I know as attentive as gentle that you guys are, you you probably in Wednesday are not gonna remember the second point of the sermon. You guys are not gonna be rehearsing the second point. Before you take notes, yes. But but we sing, and and music appeals to memory. So what we sing is informing our minds, and and we sing in happy moments, and we sing in difficult moments. I mean, we know this, the saints have seen in their dying bed seconds before passing, saints sing. And I think as a pastor, I'm I have a conviction I don't want over my watch anyone to sing something that is not strengthened in their spirit when they receive bad news about to die or in a moment of joy. Uh, we chose to sing in our wedding. Um we Christians sing because, and and and I this sermon that that you're referring to, I I pay attention to Ephesians 5, 18 and 19, and Hebrews 2, and uh real quick, I'll share this. It's very interesting, Ephesians 5.18, and do not get drunk with wine, for this is dissipation, but be filled with the spirit. And we normally think that that verse is about alcohol or the use of alcohol, but then the following verse 19 speak to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, sing and make a melody with your hearts to the Lord. The context for Ephesians is they have a notion of how to worship, and they have the worship of the God of wine. And getting drunk was the way to get connected with the divine. And then Paul comes and says, No, do not enter into that dissipation, but uh because you're filled with the spirit, and as you sing, you are filled with the spirit of God. So when the people of God get together and sing, we are actively being we're receiving the Spirit of God in a particular way as we gather and as we worship. And then a verse that I've read many times, but it but it just landed so differently, Hebrews 2 12. It says, saying, I will recount your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly, I will sing your praise. And then verses 14 and 15 continues saying, Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he himself, Jesus, likewise as partook of the same, and through death he might render powerless him who had the power of dead, that is the evil, and he might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. Now, in the context of Hebrews 2, Jesus is quoting Psalm 22, but he's quoting the victorious part of Psalm 22. Psalm 22 is the same verse that Jesus quotes in the cross. Now, Hebrews says that Jesus is saying that he will lead the singing with his brothers. What this is telling us is Jesus Christ one day will lead us in song to worship the Father. How in the world are we not gonna sing here if we are longing to our King to become our worship leader, to lead us in song to praise the Lord. It's fascinating. I mean, and and we have references in Zephaniah where the Lord is singing back. So this is why we sing as as Christians, there's a there's a unique beauty. We sing as McChaney saying, uh my fourth point was we sing because we have been set free. We have the freedom to sing, we have the freedom to worship, and and I think this is spectacular. Um we don't sing because we like singing, even though many of us like to sing. And we don't sing because we can sing well or not. We sing because God is on the throne and he has set us free to sing, to praise him in this unique way. And and I found fascinating, I'll say this. I found fascinating when some for some men it's hard to sing, and and I think some men associate this to like a feminine expression of art. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Uh we have a God who sings, we have a God who inspired 150 songs, we have a God that in the midst of different moments of scripture inspired songs, and he in the Psalms He tells us how to sing back to Him. Um and I'll just say this uh Elders and I will have the opportunity to go to the Shepherd's Conference in March. Only men. Three thousand men singing holy, holy, holy. It doesn't get better than that. I mean, and I love when my sisters sing, but just hear a group of men. I mean, I'll tell you this. Every evening when we were after the the conference, the five elders, me included, we were like, we cannot keep singing this hard. We're we don't have no voice for the end of the of the day. It was just so beautiful to hear men singing. So brothers, sisters sing. We are free to do it.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Amen, brother. Uh in which so in that sermon you mentioned uh you made the observation like modern writing versus very old writing. You said 75% of modern songs uh would say like I mean my mine versus maybe like Isaac Watts. And I could uh let me read this. Uh so whenever we have a guest preacher, I annoy them with encouraging emails, and uh the last one that I normally send is these lines, uh it's the hymns titled The Humiliation, Exaltation, and Triumph of Christ. Uh but here's what it says He that distributes crowns and throne and thrones hangs on a tree and bleeds and groans. The Prince of Life resigns his breath, the King of Glory fells to death. But see the wonders of his power. He triumphs in his dying hour, and while by Satan's rage he fell, he dashed the rising hopes of hell. Thus were the hosts of death subdued, and sin was drowned in Jesus' blood. Thus he arose and reigns above, and conquers sinners by his love. Um that is not nearly the tone of a lot of modern songs. Right. Uh so yeah, how did you make the observation?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

I mean, yeah, there's been a shift, and there's been studies actually where uh they they are evaluating the songs and and and there's a there's a drift from songs that were directed to God and meant to speak about God and written in the plural as a corporate expression of how we direct ourselves to God. More contemporary music uses the the the first person, I mean my and the and the themes of the songs are not reflecting on who God is, but reflecting of my experience of God or the church. Now nothing wrong with reflecting or our experiences, the psalms do this, but in proportion, we find some of the very popular contemporary music groups is 90% a reflection of themselves. Now, what this creates, I think, problematically is it creates that our gathering suddenly becomes a my personal experience, my personal devotional experience, and how I reflect to God, and we lose the congregational nature of it. We are commanded to admonish each other in song in Ephesians 5. So what we do is a corporate dynamic that is telling to each other, I believe these things with you, but we're telling to a watching world this is what we corporate believe. So even when we use a first person, we're reflecting that as a work of the congregation. We are a people. Um with that, of course, is creating a culture in the church where it's me and God and the rest doesn't matter, and no one has authority. And I think we need to reclaim and regain our songs and old songs, but new songs written in the plural directed to the praises of the Lord. So part of that was also the motivation to write on this on this end, because I've had a couple people crossway asking, why do we sing this much? So we sing like six songs on the doxology at the end, and and people are like, Why do we sing this much? And normally my question, and I'm trying it's a provocation. I was like, why not? Um but the question is we're not just singing. We're just not singing. This uh forgive me for this. This is not Christian karaoke. We're worshiping and praising and declaring things about our Lord. Right. The problem is when you have six songs talking just about yourself, then it's boring, and then it's not conveying really a message. But when it's about what God is doing through his people and for his people, then we can we're gonna sing for eternity.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Amen. So what what do we do about that? I mean, do we do preach sermons on it, uh series on it, write about it? How do we we all just adopt hymns of grace out of you know Southern California? I mean, how do we what's the way forward?

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Well, by the grace of God, I think there's a lot of other people that are writing good things. I mean, I don't know how aware of you guys of this. Um in Christ alone has twenty five years. It sounds like it was written like twenty centuries ago, but the other Is alive. He's like 60 years old, kid Getty. I mean, by the grace of God, there's incredibly theologically rich good songs that are being written. Now, my encouragement is like, let's find them. Let's research for them. Let's let's let's appropriate those to sing them in our homes. We need to preach sermons, of course. We need to hear how people are thinking. So there's a contemporary band called CityAlight. If you can find there, there's an interview how of their process. But it's fascinating. CDLite, when you when they ask them, like, how many members does the band CD Lite has, it's like, oh, it's like 22, and they're like, what? Like, well, it's a worship team of our church. The way how they choose who go to a conference to play with CD Lite is who never gets a chance at work. Because that's not their main job. They're teachers, they're lawyers, they're a worship team of a church. And then someone presents a song, they write a song, and then there's a team of leaders in the church that reviews the theology of the song. And then they everybody participates on it to the point that that song, even though originally was written by someone, becomes a song of the church. And then they play the song in their church, and if it works, they record it. If they don't, they don't. But this is the this is the thing that I think is good. They know they are from Australia. They know that the average church in Australia is 80 people and they have one musician. That's the average. Every single song that they write is meant to be played with one instrument led by someone that is not a professional singer, and that the melody is predictable so that the people can sing along. So it's not a song that is hyper-complicated so that only professionals can sing, but they do songs that are their melodies are so simple that anyone can sing it. That's the intentionality behind congregational singing theologically rich. So I'll say engage in singing, review your songs, think through your songs, review them, and sing things that are talking about the glory and the mercies of the Lord. So we did we took like a bold move some years ago at Crossway that we said we're not gonna sing songs from particular organizations or groups because we think their ministries are not Christian, we think that their songs are not healthy, and even there's some songs that we say, you know what, like it's not a bad song, the organization is not bad, but it's not really saying much. So again, we want to have rich, theologically good, Christ-centered songs, and that doesn't mean difficult or complicated, it's it means biblical, congregational that everyone can sing. So that's that's a thought.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Well, I mean Isaac Watts, uh the hymn is the humiliation, exaltation, and triumph of Christ. Yep. Like if that's that's the title of your hymn, uh, I mean you're gonna have a whole different theology that you'll be singing.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

And yeah, I anyway, I really appreciate the sermon. I'm planning on sharing it out with the congregation in in our letter. Uh in that sermon, though, you said we are in a war for the glory of God. Um singing is it is it really that big a deal? Is it a war?

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Yeah. I mean, if you think about this, every single thing that the world throws at us, even the most gentle things, are motivated by a pursuit of glory. And we we are designed to reflect on glory. We do the think of sports. Sports is all about achieving glory. Every sport. Think about careers, they all are tailored towards the pursuit of certain glory. So if we're not conscious of that, we don't realize that we are in a battle for our attention, and that battle for our attention is a battle of the heart. We are meant to worship. Brothers, sisters, we worship, even if you think you don't, we are worshiping all the time. The question is not if we are worshiping, the question is who are we worshiping? And the nature of our heart, Romans 6, 7, and 8, the nature of our heart is to worship ourselves. We love the worship of the self. So that's why good songs help in this battle of against the worship of self to change that and control that to the worship of the Lord. So I I do believe, yeah, we're in a battle and it's a war, and and by the grace of God, the Lord is so kind that he has given us countless elements to fight this battle and and give him the glory. So yeah, we we need to sing good sing good songs.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

And I mean City of Light, uh, Sovereign Grace, I mean the hymns of grace. I mean, they're just there are a lot. Uh there's a group in New Orleans that's kind of starting. Um what's what's what's their name? It's something Redemption, Redeemer Redeemer Records. Yes. Um, I mean they're uh I think a lot of their philosophy is what you're talking about. They want to write simple songs, they want to keep the plural. Um that yeah, so it's I think that's happening. It's just what you say, like uh finding them, maybe promoting them, singing their songs, Jesus Strong and Kind. Yes. I mean that is uh that's such a beautiful song.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

I think we need to remember that this is this cannot be innocent. Satan is identified with one particular thing that is he wants the glory of God. He's gonna use anything that is in his power to gain that glory, even the songs that we sing at church. If we're not cautious of that, we can very easily open a door to praise the self. That is, if God is not receiving the glory, that is points that Satan wants. So this is why I believe it it's a war. I'm not trying to be dramatic, I'm trying to be thoughtful about it. We're fighting a war, but what a precious war to fight that is for the glory of the Lord, and that the instruments that we have is singing his praises. It doesn't get better than that.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Well, yeah, I ask because I agree with you. Um I think it you're absolutely right. Um well, we kind of gotta land the plane. Um I have a lot more questions. That just means you gotta come back uh you know next week. Uh so uh kind of some maybe just exit questions. Um what's a good book you've read recently?

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Well, I I've been going back and forth with um A Heart of Flame for God.

unknown 51:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Fantastic book I'll recommend to anyone.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Give us a brief.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

I'm reading it, but yeah, so but basically uh Matthew I can't remember the last name. Bingham Bingham, thank you. Um he basically identifies that there's a this is the funny thing. We we had a conversation with him actually. Many people think that he's responding to the new age mysticism that people are bringing into their worship life. He's not, he was he was just writing a spiritual formation course, and that led into the book. Now, providentially, this book came at the same time that another book that are more into mysticism. What Matthew Bringer is saying there is we have a legacy of Bible, Bible meditation and prayer that is the way in how we have done this as Christians to inform with the scripture our minds what engage our hearts. So basically, let me summarize this. If at any point you have been in a place where you say, I feel like I'm praying to an empty room, or I read my Bible, but I don't feel anything, his diagnosis is the problem that you're not engaging the heart with the mind. What you're reading, the words in the page should inform your mind but should engage your heart to