Ponder and Magnify: A Rosary Podcast

S2, E14 - The Coronation Bible Study (Revelation 12: 1-6)

• John and Jessica Helling • Season 2 • Episode 14

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The mission of the Ponder and Magnify Podcast is to seek an encounter with Jesus through praying the rosary, relying on the grace of the Holy Spirit and the intercession of Mary. Join us as we dive into the Fifth Glorious Mystery of the Rosary! In this episode, Jess, John, and Fr. Archer discuss Mary's Coronation with Revelation 12: 1-6. Praise be to God!

Jessica:

Hello and welcome to the Ponder and Magnify podcast, where our mission is to seek an encounter with Jesus through praying the Rosary, relying on the grace of the Holy Spirit and the intercession of Mary. I am so happy that you are here, welcome everyone. This episode we are going to be focused on the fifth and final glorious mystery, the mystery of Mary's coronation. I'm joined again by Father Archer and John and we are excited to jump into the doctrine and Scripture around Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth. Father Archer, would you mind opening us up in prayer?

Fr. Archer:

Delighted In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen, hail Holy Queen, mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor, banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us and, after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary, pray for us, most holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Fr. Archer:

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Jessica:

Thank you, Father. Father Archer, would you mind giving us a little background into what exactly we mean by Mary's coronation?

John:

But first could we talk about our one word.

Jessica:

Did I skip over my favorite part? Father Archer, what is your one word or phrase? You said you had it on your heart. The second. We ended the last recording, so let's hear it. We're all eager.

Fr. Archer:

Yes

John:

that was our payback. Jess was just trying to blow past that part of the.

Fr. Archer:

I was excited to give my word and then I thought we were skipping. But the word now is rejuvenated, which is to be made a youth again. And so, with all this meditation on the glorious mysteries and the glory of heaven, that is one of my favorite images of heaven, is the youthfulness of God and the youthfulness of the saints. That, that childlike wonder, is something that kind of dawns within the human heart once more. And back in the tradition, that used to be one of the first prayers that the priest would pray when he was approaching the altar. He'd say let us go to the altar of God, the God who renews the joy of our youth, and so that is what we all hope to do as we approach the heavenly kingdom. Very good, so, john, what is your word?

John:

I'm giddy, and that is my word, because you know I try not to live just like for the weekends or for the next trip, like you got to enjoy each day as they come. However, memorial Day is around the corner, and before then, our family and my greater extended family were going on a trip this week, coming up to celebrate my dad who's retiring, and so we got a short work week, some good family time, and then Memorial Day, some relaxing, fun time with family. So all that is ahead and I am very giddy about that. Jess?

Jessica:

My word is maternity, because whenever I think of the coronation, I am led to Mary as mother, and mother of us all, and so I'm excited to reflect on that more. With that, Father Archer, would you mind talking to us a little bit about the teaching behind Mary, crowned as Queen of Heaven and Earth?

Fr. Archer:

I'd be happy to. There's different facets that you could speak about with this particular mystery. There's deep biblical roots in the Old Testament of Mary as the queen mother that when you look back, you could I mean you could look all the way back to Eve. But I'd like to look a little bit more towards the Davidic kingdom. That King David. When he was on his deathbed, one of his sons was about to declare himself king and his wife, Bathsheba, went up to him and she said to him David, my king, you promised me that my son Solomon would be king. And David remembered. He said oh, that's actually true. And so he gave her instructions so that Solomon would end up becoming the king. But when Solomon was raised, this was very significant for Bathsheba herself. David, as you may know, David had many wives and the woman who was considered the queen was not just any particular wife, especially when there was a polygamous situation back then but it was the mother of the king who was considered the queen, and the queen mother had a particular role of intercession for people who had need in some way. And so you see Bathsheba fulfilling that role with King Solomon, that there's an instance where someone goes to her to ask her, to ask Solomon for mercy in their case. And so that's kind of a root that whoever the king is, his mother is the queen in the Jewish tradition. And so we have Mary, by that tradition, is exalted to the status of queen because she is undoubtedly the mother of Jesus.

Fr. Archer:

And another kind of cool sort of spiritual application that on the day of my ordination was something that struck me, comes from a Marianist.

Fr. Archer:

Father Emil Neubert made this comment one time in a book which I would highly recommend, called Life of Union with Mary, and in this book he said you know, each individual person has a mission that God gives them for a certain time and for a certain place over the course of human history.

Fr. Archer:

But the mission that God has given you for a particular time and place God has also given to Mary, because when she became the Queen Mother, he gave her the mission of every time and place to bring the grace of Jesus into those places. And so on the day of my ordination, and very often since then, I'll pray when I'm ministering to people and I'll talk to our Blessed Mother and tell her you know, I see the outside and I only see so much, but you can see the inside of the hearts of those whom I'm ministering to you and just like that little prayer of asking her like, please help them to receive this message well, or to be able to receive whatever grace it is that they need from my ministry. And so for her to be the queen also means that she's right there with all of her sons and daughters, all of kind of the soldiers of God's kingdom, that you're never alone when you're working to advance the kingdom. It's a little bit of history. There's more there, but I think that gives enough context.

Jessica:

I think that's beautiful. Thank you so much. Okay, Father Archer, I'm going to go ahead and invite you to proclaim our Scripture, please.

Fr. Archer:

A reading from the book of Revelation. A great sign appeared in the sky a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky. It was a huge red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give brith, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and to his throne. The woman herself fled into the desert, where she had a place prepared by God that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.

Jessica:

All right, after taking some time to pause the recording and really invite the Holy Spirit in... John, what are you feeling about this passage? What's sticking

Jessica:

out to you?

John:

Well I am still hoping for the Holy Spirit to shed some light on this for me. After reading this I kind of got nothing. You know, reading the gospel, that type of almost like storytelling comes much more easily to me. But reading about dragons with seven heads and horns and trying to devour a child, I'm like what the heck am I reading? So it's harder for me to take away something like this. So I was hoping you two could maybe shed some light on it. Or, Father Archer, could you kind of give a little context or any sort of insight to help me.

Fr. Archer:

Sure, Anything for you, John. I was really struck by the stars. So you know, there's that part of the passage where it says the dragon's tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. And this is the origin of the tradition that when Satan rejected God and fell from grace, that he took one-third of the angels with him. He swept one-third of the stars from the sky and specifically, where did they go? They went down to the earth. And so we already find, when Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden, that Satan is already present, that the serpent was already around by the time they showed up.

Fr. Archer:

But then there's a cool way that just the theme of stars throughout Scriptures kind of like plays off of that is that Abraham, when he's first called and the Jewish covenant is first established, that God has him, look to the stars in the sky and he says you know as many as there are stars in the sky, so numerous shall your descendants be. And that introduces this idea that the true children of Abraham which is in our Catholic faith we understand that to be all men and women who follow in the faith of Abraham, whether it's in the old dispensation of the Jewish people faithful to his covenant, or the new dispensation of those who live the Christian faith in baptism, that those who follow Abraham become like the new stars in the sky and make up for the number of angels that fell from grace in that original sin. And this may be this is like a little nerdy here but it's an idea that I'm really excited about these days, which is that how the saints supplant and kind of get rid of the influence of the devil in the world. And there's a few passages in the scriptures which relate to royalty, to queenship or kingship, like the parable of the talents for the servants who had the ten talents or the five talents or the three talents, who used their gifts well. When they're rewarded, the king says to them I will give you ten cities or five cities, and so this idea that you're faithful in little things and then suddenly you're given a city as a result, and an application of this is that the saints, those who are faithful to God, that he really raises them up and gives them charge over, like huge areas, even things like cities. So just to think for a moment of the story of Saint Perpetua, who's one of my favorite Saints that she was the daughter of a Roman nobleman. She converted when she was a teenager to Christianity. She was put on trial. Her dad, in tears, begged her to recant her faith. She refused to do so. She was thrown to the wild beasts in Carthage and she gave her life for the faith.

Fr. Archer:

Previously, Carthage had been known to be a very bloodthirsty city before Perpetua, and especially their own version of the Colosseum, was the place that, like the demonic principality of bloodlust, had a very strong hold upon that location. And when people in Carthage were thinking of relaxing, they would go and they would engage in just these awful, violent activities. And you could see very evidently the rule of Satan, that Satan had gone down to the earth and Satan was deceiving and getting men and women to give themselves over to this bloodthirsty passion. But after Saint Perpetua gave her life and her autobiography began to be spread among the Christians and then even the pagans, that Colosseum no longer became a place of entertainment, but it became the place where Perpetua had given her life. And so what had been a stronghold of Satan then became a source of pilgrimage, a source of grace for that city.

Fr. Archer:

So Perpetua, who was faithful in little things, she became like the new queen or the new princess of Carthage, through her death and through her witness and so like she sort of rose as that new star in place of the fallen angels, and that Mary kind of oversees this whole dynamic happening, that the image of her being in labor pains is a metaphor for her immaculate heart crying out to the Lord for the sake of those of her children who are still on the earth and who are still striving for the kingdom that God has created them to inherit.

Fr. Archer:

And we always speak of Mary as being crowned queen of heaven and of earth, and that's significant, that for her to be Queen of Heaven means that she's with all the saints in glory and she had some role to play in each one of their paths of coming to that place of glory. But she's also the Queen of those who are on this earth, and so she's the Queen of those who struggle, as we prayed in the Hail Holy Queen at the beginning, that we're in this veil of tears and there is suffering, there is hardship, there is sadness, but through our fidelity we inherit the kingdom and the cities and overthrow the domain of Satan, and so I think Mary as queen, in a particular way does point to that battle in the heavens between Satan and God, and then that unique role that she plays in nurturing the life of grace within each of the children of God.

Jessica:

So when we're reading this passage, father Archer, this Revelation 12, it's understood in the Catholic interpretation that this woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, on her head a crown of 12 stars, that that is Mary.

Fr. Archer:

It's Mary and it's the church.

Jessica:

Okay,

Fr. Archer:

it's both

Jessica:

, so that I'm happy. Okay, thank you for clarifying that for me, because from my understanding of the book of Revelation, john the apostle, john, john the evangelist, is receiving a vision of heaven, and so it's a vision of what is to come, and yet it's also kind of like an allusion to what has also happened. I read one in one place that she was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth that child. You know, my mind goes like oh Mary, with child, we're talking about Jesus. But I read in one interpretation or commentary at one point like that child is the church that she is laboring. I love how you talked about like through her immaculate heart, to give birth, birth to heaven, bringing us to heaven. Is that something you've heard of? Or am I going off the rails here, Father Archer?

Fr. Archer:

Oh, jess, you're so far off the rails. I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. No, that's also a true interpretation. That's why Revelation I find it to be a really fun book to read, because there are many different interpretations. It's also challenging in its own way because often we kind of like to be able to say like, okay, that's it, that's what it means, but there's different directions you can go. Um, just kind of as like.

Fr. Archer:

Another sort of fun example of that is the dragon. We hear that it has seven heads. Uh, that could stand for the seven hills of rome, that it was rome initially that most severely persecuted the church and so, just kind of, as you're saying, it might be looking towards like the present day moment in which john was writing uh, the seven hills of rome being the seven heads. Uh, the ten horns, uh, that there were I believe it was either ten kings or ten emperors who were involved in some kind of persecution. But the horn biblically also means um is a sign of strength and so like a tenfold strength that Satan was using to seek to overcome the church. Yeah, so there's, like it's kind of fun the different allusions that you run into, but only in a really nerdy kind of way.

Jessica:

I love it. Okay, I want to ask you a question. This has been something that's kind of coming to me in prayer a lot recently that I've been reflecting on, and what you were talking about made it kind of up well in my heart again.

Jessica:

But I'm still processing or working through whether it's truth and it's easy for me, when I think about heaven and imagine heaven, which these glorious mysteries constantly are uplifting me, to think about that, Thinking about like this space of no suffering, this union with the Lord, the communion of saints, those kind of things, and like eternal rest.

Jessica:

But in the way that this revelation passage, looking at that one interpretation as a revelation of what is to come, I've been thinking a lot lately about like when we go to heaven, like the saints are at rest and union with the Lord and experiencing the joy and satisfaction and the freedom from suffering. But yet I also feel at the same time their mission is still very much alive, Like it's not a time of rest as in inactivity, but Mary, crowned as Queen of Heaven and Earth, she is very much active in heaven and so are the saints. So the saints interceding for those in the world and by the graces from their prayers lifting up us on earth. So it makes me think about my own death and dying, and just like when I get to heaven joining in the mission. Yes, there will be a time of eternal rest and peace, but there is still, when you get to heaven, there's still work to be done. Is that a truth or can you speak into that a little bit?

Fr. Archer:

Absolutely. That's a great insight. St Therese of Lisieux, of course, famously said just before she died I will spend my heaven doing good on earth.

Jessica:

That's right, that's right.

Fr. Archer:

And, yeah, there's a beautiful truth in that Rest in heaven does not mean the same thing as rest on earth, because when we think of rest here on earth, we think of our bodies getting fatigued, having to go to sleep, but in heaven we're going to have these great, glorious bodies and they're not going to get tired. We won't go to sleep when we're in heaven. So to be at rest is more describing our spiritual condition of our intellect and will be completely activated and engaged in what it was meant to do, which is the activity of contemplating the glory of God and also the glory of His plan, as His plan is worked out over the course of the rest of human history. And that engagement of our intellect and our will includes the activity of intercession and mediating in our own particular, small ways, Grace to those who are still on the earth.

Jessica:

It is kind of cool then to think about obviously our earthly existence give us constant foreshadowing into our heavenly existence.

Jessica:

But even when we're praying for someone or like interceding for someone on earth, we're getting a glimpse of heaven in that way too, of like the intercession of joining the communion of saints. It's like we are joining in with that intercessory role and kind of like a participation in heaven while we're still on earth by like joining and uniting our prayers to them. It's a cool way to think about it

Fr. Archer:

Absolutely

Fr. Archer:

Yeah. There's a phrase that St John Henry Newman once quoted that grace is glory in exile and glory is grace at home. So grace is what we have here on this earth. Glory is what we have in heaven. Grace is glory in exile. Glory is grace at home. So there is that foreshadowing that we have now.

John:

And that's wild, because I have always thought of eternal rest just solely, almost in the perspective of, you know, whatever physical ailment or mental ailment or just whatever any. What someone's cross was that like that's gone, but there's like you're also kind of going to work, but there's like you're also kind of going to work, but no, that's. You guys are kind of blowing my mind right now.

Jessica:

I think, another thing that I would just love to talk about what really stuck out to me in the passage just how it talks about this woman crowned on her head a crown of 12 stars, and then the fact that she was with child and in labor. And for me, when I think of Mary crowned as queen, it is inseparable for me as like thinking of her as universal mother, even in like the Hail Holy Queen prayer, like Hail Holy Queen, mother of Mercy, it's like almost, I don't know, like a synonym of Holy Queen is like Mother of Mercy, I don't know, in the way that that hits my heart and I love. There's something very mysterious about this that I don't fully understand. But I also know it is the truth that maternity is not just related to being a biological mother, and I think that that's really shown in Mary, that Mary is not my biological mother and yet she is my mother and my spiritual mother. And even for a person who is a biological mother, a deep and important part of that calling is to be a spiritual mother to your biological children and just like how women are entrusted uniquely and are able to uniquely take in and nurture and care for other souls and intercede for them and anticipate their needs in a way that doesn't necessitate a person to be a biological mother. And so I just I love how the truth about maternity as a true gift bestowed by God really comes out, and just thinking about Mary as our mother and just being claimed by her, that each one of us is claimed by her, is just so beautiful to me.

Jessica:

I also really think about maternity in the sense that, just like with femininity or masculinity, everyone expresses that in such a unique way because we all have our own unique, unrepeatable soul, as Pope John Paul II, I think, said it but in our maternity and paternity those can also be expressed uniquely, and I like to think about how those that you are called to mother whether biological children or spiritual children or however that looks or plays in your life those people shape your maternity. The people that you are mothering shape the way that you love. I really see this in my own mother loving. I'm one of five and we're all very different. We always laugh about that but she mothers us each so uniquely and you can see how different aspects of her mothering really come out because of the five children that she has to mother.

Jessica:

But it's cool to think of how Mary is mother of all of us and it's amazing to think about somehow God creating me, my unique, unrepeatable soul, is somehow affecting Mary's maternity in a way, I don't know. It makes me feel deeply connected to her. It's just a thought that occurred to me but, yeah, just this image of Mary as like the best mother is just really consoling for me and just I don't know such a gift from the Lord I just think about often when I pray to Mary. I think about Elizabeth's words in the Visitation how is it that the mother of my Lord should appear to me or should come to me? And then I like to add on to the end of that, like how is it that the mother of my Lord should also claim me as her own? And I just just is mind blowing for me. So I just think the gift of Mary as our mother is such a reflection of how deeply God loves us and to me that really comes out in her role as queen and, yeah, mother of mercy.

Fr. Archer:

And Jess, one thing I love about your insights and your approach to Mary is, at times I've spoken to women who feel that Mary is so perfect that as be almost unrelatable is what they'll say, and there can be a temptation at times to see Mary as a rival. Oh, she's the perfect mother. Therefore, I'm the imperfect mother and there can be that sense of being threatened by Mary. But with the way that you speak about her and with that insight that you're sharing is recognizing that in her being your mother and in the way that you care for your children as well, that there's like a share and a participation in the motherhood of Mary. And so it's not so much of a rivalry kind of thing as like a complete support and gift and grace and uplifting of your own motherhood. And so I think it's such a beautiful spirit you have about the way you approach Mary and her motherhood in this context.

Jessica:

Thank you, Thank you, Holy Spirit, for that.

Jessica:

That's so funny that you say that too, because I was actually just recently reflecting in prayer about what a gift it is In my mind, the times where I am really holding her in my heart as like the perfect mother, is actually a great consolation to me in my own mothering, because John and I have talked a lot about this that even in our efforts to be perfect parents to our children and our desires to do everything for their good and be so intentional about our family life, there will be failures.

Jessica:

We will fail them even when we have our best intention, and to me it's such a consolation that our failure as parents can make room for our children to like, accept and experience the love of Mary and Jesus more. It's funny. Our oldest daughter and I were having a conversation the other day about how, you know, in a way we're actually sisters because Mary is our shared mother. We were kind of delighting in that idea together. But I just love the idea that any failure that I have in my mothering, despite my best intention, I love that Mary can compensate for that in the way that she will mother our children and really for all souls too. She's just such a gift. I'm just, yeah, it's amazing.

Jessica:

With that, John, Father Archer, we good to wrap up?

Fr. Archer:

All set,

John:

All set over here.

Jessica:

Okay, oh, thank you, holy Spirit, for such a beautiful conversation. Thank you, Father, for having it in your design that you should give us Mary as our mother. Please, please, count on our continued prayers and we ask for you to please, please, be praying for us. Praise be to God.