Chapter 416 Podcast

Episode 4 - The Emperor’s Children & Tactical Mastery

• Alan Bajramovic • Season 1 • Episode 4

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In this episode of the Chapter 416 Podcast, Pajama Pants and Brad Chester dive deep into the upcoming Emperor’s Children codex, breaking down leaks, rumors, and their wishlist for the most decadent of Chaos Space Marines. From the power of Flawless Blades to potential game-changing rules like Thrill Seeker, they discuss what makes this faction unique and why they could be one of the most competitive Chaos armies to date.

But that’s not all—this episode also features an in-depth discussion on tournament strategy, covering crucial game mechanics like pre-measuring, deployment spacing, and understanding when to commit or hold back based on the score. Brad goes off on a legendary rant about cover mechanics in 10th edition, and Alan relives a pivotal tournament moment that came down to pure game sense over brute force.

Plus, we revisit the legend of Fulgrim, why he’s the ultimate “Ooh, piece of candy” Primarch, and the best lore moments from the Horus Heresy. And of course, no Chapter 416 episode would be complete without some hot takes, tournament wisdom, and questionable beverage recommendations.

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit us up on Patreon to support the show. Until next time, keep rolling sixes (and measuring correctly).

Alan:

Welcome to the chapter four 16 podcast that jumps from storytelling. To a little bit of competitive information and then back to camaraderie. Cause that's what we like to focus on. My name is pajama pants. That is Brad Chester. And we are very happy to be back today talking about our favorite thing, which is Warhammer 40 K and the you're always psyched though. What's new?

Brad:

but like, I'm psyched about different shit. I'm like a small child. You give me like new stuff all the time. And I'm like, Ooh, you're like Brad's misbehaving. Shake something in front of him. And I'm like, Oh, okay. I'm not, I'm not mad anymore.

Alan:

I'm super pumped for new stuff. I'm actually really excited for the stuff that we have coming out soon right now around the corner here is this whole emperor's children release.

Brad:

the

Alan:

And

Brad:

Well, we've got all four chaos gods coming this summer and we've got, I think like GW hits it, hits it sometimes, misses sometimes. I think these limited edition boxes, I think they're cool. I've gotten a couple of them. I'm a 40 K nerd. They have like cool lore. They've got like a little knickknacks. They have shiny things inside of them, but. I love the fact that they have if you get all four, they come together, there's like, you get a quarter of a metallic chaos medallion, I just like that, I, I think it's sweet,

Alan:

you're like little tchotchkes. You're like a tchotchke guy.

Brad:

I am, I'm ridiculous about it, but, I like the fact of what they're doing, and they've really I think they've learned from their past mistakes. They're doing some really cool shit. They learned it in Eldar. They started with Eldar. I really, really like the fact that they put different points for Yanari Eld, you know, Dark Eldar shit. Because what they kept doing is they kept jacking up codexes.

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

but I shared a unit with it and you got nerfed and I got nerfed, but I wasn't winning the way, same way you were winning. And they're fixing that. You were getting

Alan:

Yeah. the same unit cannot have the same points if the overall army rules in stratagems and all that stuff are different. you have to make sure that the points for the units. are taking into consideration all of the other abilities and options that unit has in the codex it's being used. So we should see the same kind of stuff in these new books. I'm, I'm hoping that, you know, I'm hoping that the emperor's children book. We'll have like a bunch of options of Slaanesh demons

Brad:

share

Alan:

costs for them and they'll, they'll benefit from the Slaanesh codex rules and the Slaanesh codex faction. I'm really hoping for a lot of synergies of like, I have a Slaanesh unit. And I have like a unit of fiends and there's like a cool thing where maybe it makes the opponent strike last or maybe it gives the unit better abilities or maybe they can, run and charge or whatever the case may be. I'm just hoping for a lot more synergy and for the units to work together in a way where. you can have the certain demons in the codex have certain points and then you can have the regular demon codex have different points for the same units.

Brad:

I like that quite a bit because you can also have, if you have limitations to it's just that book, you can make crazy, powerful, like specific rulings on stuff as opposed to going, well, we can't make these guys too cool because they're also in this book.

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

demons, you're like, no, they're this in this book specifically.

Alan:

Well, aspects, tactics, huge. Yeah. Huge shout out to him per usual building a PowerPoint deck that summarized all of the leaks off of Reddit. So yeah, it was great.

Brad:

man on that.

Alan:

yeah,

Brad:

I'm

Alan:

got robots.

Brad:

I like, I think Emperor's Children have the potential to be the most competitive of the army's period they have historically, all the time, been a very balanced army which is one of the things that you need in 40k. They have super fast movement. They can shoot, can hand to hand, they've got a lot of special rules, fights first, and things of that nature to give you that advantage. But you can be anywhere on the board, and you can fight in all of the distances. Melee, range firepower, plus long distance firepower. Looks like they're gonna have all of those. Plus, they also have a centerpiece, which I really do think is cool. The new Fulgur model is

Alan:

awesome.

Brad:

for him of whether he's going to be really good or not. if you tell me that a guy that was 16, isn't going to be.

Alan:

He's definitely going to be awesome.

Brad:

I mean, a menace on the table because, you

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

16 with a plus two. so like he can, it looks like he's going to fight first, huge, of course, minus one to hit leadership tests.

Alan:

Transcribed by

Brad:

Because all of a sudden you're like I'm gonna shoot this and you're like, well not if Timmy and the Lance cannons don't fall back You know, I

Alan:

Yeah,

Brad:

so

Alan:

I've always resonated really highly with fulgrum in general. Like, I feel like when you listen to all of the, when you read the books, and I don't mean to go on a tangent right away. I know you're breaking down the rules, so we can come back to them real quick.

Brad:

100

Alan:

But I just, I like, I've always just thought that fulgrum was such a unique character. if you read about him in the great crusade, you read about him in the pre heresy books. And then, I mean, I love when he actually turns into a demon.

Brad:

My only problem with Fulgram is he gets possessed a lot. Like he gets tricked all the time.

Alan:

sounds a lot like you.

Brad:

I mean, I'm not a Primark, bro, a servitor around. You would think he would be quicker to do it. I just like this gene. I mean, Bobby G. Yes, he got rez, but he had to get rezzed. he's super, it is demon form. You haven't got a ton of it in. In the last stories, he showed up, you know what I mean, they talked about Bobby G going down and all that. he's got, he's got multiple primer kills, by the way. I don't know if you're, you're counting, but it counts. It's just like assassination in the game. He killed Bobby G, he came back, but you're still getting that assassination point on it. I'm pretty sure that Ferris Magnus is not coming back, unless you're gonna duct tape his head to his body. Because he cleaned, chopped that off.

Alan:

yeah, there's sort like, you know, Lucius. Lucius is another amazing character. I know it doesn't really resonate on the tabletop. I think he's had. good rules in certain editions. And for the most part, he hasn't been anywhere near like what he is in the story, like in the stories, like, you know, there's no way you're landing a blow on Lucius, like period, you know, like,

Brad:

it doesn't matter, you know, Lucius is a great swordmaster and he's lost multiple times, but it doesn't matter because he takes over your body once he dies. you're like, oh, he won, but now you're just the new Lucius.

Alan:

but even before that, like if you watch, I think it's so funny that like, I read a book, I remember the way I pictured the book. And then I say, Oh, if you watch, you know, it's Devon three, the battle, it's like, there's nothing to watch. There isn't a video on that. Right. But it's in my head. Yeah. In my mind, brain, my mind palace. Even then, you know, way before Dean, like way before he was even impacted with chaos, really, he's fighting on his Devon three. And he doesn't even realize that they're getting betrayed, It's like all new to him. He's got to like pick a side, like in the moment. So it's really, I think it's really like, I don't know. I just, I've always resonated with world leaders. Of course. I love world leaders, but for completely different reasons. So it's, it's funny. Well, it's really funny that, that you would like both.

Brad:

Well, you know, because I like a lot of different things. I'm, I'm eclectic

Alan:

I find it interesting for me that I like both the world leaders who are just savage barbarians. And Slaanesh who are basically like the Eldar of chaos, kind of like a super elegant, super precise, super detail oriented, You know, they're just completely different, and most people who do like chaos tend to like one type of chaos, like diehard Nurgle people, diehard Zinj people, diehard world leaders people. I actually don't think. From my experience, at least, I think Emperor's Children, it's maybe because they don't have a book and maybe that's why my perception is this way, but I don't feel like they're really the favorite. Usually, it's demon players who like Emperor's Children. They love taking like the keepers and stuff.

Brad:

paint scheme is such a big deal on that too, cause you can do so much stuff with it. I'm excited for this because I don't think they've had a legit book and it looks like, I think that this is going to be big, you know,

Alan:

Well, they've never had a book, right? I don't think in any edition they've really been great. Noise Marines.

Brad:

just been,

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

Well, they've, just been in the main cast book. Emperor's Children has always

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

of the

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

Well,

Alan:

like some cool, I always wished that at some point games workshop would start to make a new unit or some new units for some of these armies. I think thousand sons got a lot of that love. Like they got their own version of terminators. They got their own version of mutants slash demons

Brad:

well, they

Alan:

that are specific to thousand sons. Yeah. They got the Zangores and all that stuff, there's a lot of flavor for Zinch. Zinch got a lot of flavor. The world leaders codex came out and you have like a bunch of world leaders units now, right? Like the jackals are different, right? You got the eight bounds, you got the exalted eight bound, I really want this emperor's children book. To have Emperor's children units, something that is more that direction.

Brad:

some stuff to not be in there. I know that's not as big of a deal, but it's okay if you don't have all the same shit because they're supposedly not going to have some of the tanks and whatnot. Use your special shit as opposed to the thing that Uses this now, like the chaos guys come with their own specific field. I love armies that have their own. flavor, basically spicy taste there. You know what I mean? I want them and with Evers children, you want them to have Marines and their variants and stuff. I want their hand to hand to be crazy fast. You know what I mean? So like

Alan:

But before we move on, we can't leave it here. We have to talk about probably arguably the greatest reason to like Fulgrum and from a lower standpoint, I know, you know, the battle he has with Ferris Maness.

Brad:

I feel like he got a victory because one person came

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

and one

Alan:

flawless victory.

Brad:

he did

Alan:

so that exact scene for those who haven't gone yet, if you're a 40 K fan and you like Warhammer 40 K. And you like it a lot, you need to go to Nottingham, you need to go to GWHQ, you need to go to, what is that place called again? I can't even remember. Is it, is it, there's a name for that place? Like the, the, the main Mecca of,

Brad:

thing.

Alan:

Nottingham?

Brad:

It's where they used to have all the games days.

Alan:

Yeah, I kind of, I like want to call it the bunker, but it's not the bunker. It's something else. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it's called these days. So the Citadel go to the Citadel. That's what I would call it. I feel that feels right. That feels right. I don't know. So you go to Nottingham, go to GW headquarters, the Citadel, and they have a whole thing where it's a museum. So there's a place to play. There's a place to drink and eat, and there's a museum. There's also a store. You could buy stuff. Like the codex and the tokens that Brad loves so much, but there is a museum and there is a board. There is a display board behind glass that is the Istvan three battle and it has like a whole spiraling mountain. And at the very, very top, they have the 30 K Ferris man is fighting the 30 K fulcrum in this, in this thing with tanks and all the Emperor's children and all the iron hands. And it's just so, so cool. And it's like the pivotal moment. Of like Phil Fulgram, like really making that, that decision.

Brad:

he's one of the few Claremarks that it was. He didn't just get tricked. He got like lured, tricked, like tricked him. And then he accepted it. They tricked him. Then he accepted it. Like his path is all a bunch of decisions. They're all his fault, but like he gets of you, you know, they put him in a decision and he's like, I choose evil and I give him a decision, you know, but he makes like little, he was a little evil. He really was. Then he goes, I'm all in. Let's do

Alan:

I think he was choosing always to secure his own position. I think he was always choosing about himself. I think that's what it was. I think he knew there was no way to win any other way.

Brad:

the dark for a while. He didn't really understand completely the Chaos Gods and whatnot,

Alan:

a lot of. I don't think everyone was fully read in

Brad:

know,

Alan:

on.

Brad:

I feel that some, like, Mortarion got a rough deal. He's done some really shitty stuff since, but his whole, like, lure to chaos was Whoops, a daisy, you know, mortarian gave him the comical D and

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

you know, switcheroo. And you're like, Oh, you know, you're like, Oh man. he just pouted for, you know, 10, 000 years, whatever, but like, you've got certain people like anger on that. It was just like, yeah, he went to corn. Yeah. Yeah. I got it. We saw that coming.

Alan:

Oh yeah. Ingram was a thousand percent going that way.

Brad:

Conrad's like, I don't even know what chaos is.

Alan:

I think Ingram. And ground was like, told we're virus bombing this Devon five or three. and you're going to come down in the hawk after to clean up. He's like, all right, sounds good.

Brad:

Well,

Alan:

He didn't even let it land. He jumped out mid flight.

Brad:

he's riding next to the missile as it's on its

Alan:

Yeah. So apologies in the segue. Let's get back to the rules. Like you were talking about, I think you were mentioning poison in some of the leaks,

Brad:

army rules cool. At least what's leaked. All right. We're going full leaks on this one. Thrill Seeker is the name of it, which by the way, that's cool as shit. They can advance in charge and fall back in charge with some restrictions. But like, that's freakin big, man. That makes your army go vroom vroom fast. That's Bobby, that's Ricky Bobby fast. You know what I mean?

Alan:

Ricky Bobby.

Brad:

But, they have a lot of weird things that, think it's because everybody wants their personal glory. You can't charge an enemy with more than one of your units that advance. Like, if two units advance and use their rule, they both can't do the same target. I think that's a lot of, because of the fact that their army to they want the most excess, the most everything. So they've also got a new unit, their handy hand unit. flawless blades, which is super cool. And they all kind of have that Lucius feel to them in their models in a unit, eight inch movement three attacks that critically wound on a three. Don't have devastating, but they can basically wound it. Being able to moon anything on a three is banana pants.

Alan:

Yep.

Brad:

you're just taking this unit.

Alan:

Well, this is the kind of stuff I was talking about earlier. Like, I'm really hoping that the codex gets that flare.

Brad:

Yeah. But I mean, having guys that are super fast, that can. are not super overpowered because if they're only doing two damage or whatever and three attacks It's not like super unbelievably OP it means they can kind of go into whatever the hell they want

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

Like with a name like also awesome name flawless blades. Having the ability to be able to attack effectively anything on the board is a big deal because most units are, I fight infantry, I fight tanks, I have a lot of attacks to fight trash, you know,

Alan:

mean, and both of us know like how important it is just to make someone roll. Like you don't necessarily always need like the huge rent. So I wouldn't be surprised if these guys actually do come out and they have the three plus two wound crit and they. They're like damage too, but they're like rend is one maybe or not, or maybe nothing. I'm not sure, but just a ton of dice. Just all the dice.

Brad:

I'm assuming they're going to be three wounds chosen style chosen possessed things of that nature. All of us have three,

Alan:

Yeah. I'm also assuming the hero in the squad is going to have the rent. Like there'll be a dude with like a lash whip or something.

Brad:

for their sword weapons though. You know what I mean?

Alan:

true, true.

Brad:

I'm not sure about that.

Alan:

Maybe they'll have like the lustful soul eating blade.

Brad:

am psyched

Alan:

causes

Brad:

new Lucius, Lucius is going to lead that unit. So, it's gonna

Alan:

Lucius better be costed appropriately and fun.

Brad:

yes,

Alan:

Those are my requirements. I miss challenges and stuff like that Cool. I don't know.

Brad:

you pull people apart

Alan:

do you ever miss initiative?

Brad:

I gotta get my chi together.

Alan:

I kind of miss initiative. I feel like,

Brad:

much.

Alan:

I feel like it's weird to talk about emperor's children, not initiative. Like for so many years, it's like, Oh, the emperor's children. Yeah. So like the initiative six. Yeah. It's like, Oh, okay. They're going before everything.

Brad:

People like in this, you get charged by some lumbering brute and you're like, so we got to let him attack.

Alan:

I

Brad:

Yeah. It's in the rules, man. He charged us. I I'm so fast. He can't do anything about it now.

Alan:

mean, I mean, the game is much more simple now. That's like less stats. I remember and stuff like, but I don't know. I don't know if that's true, though, I think they complicated the game with other stuff. So it's still really complicated. It's just different kind of complications. But but yeah, it's interesting. When you brought up Lucius, I'm like, oh, he's probably like I ate. that's just where my brain goes. I'm like, oh, way, way removed from the game.

Brad:

So I'm all their detachment rules were all over the place. So I don't want to go into them because I don't think they're going to be, I think they're going to have dark packs ish. You know what I mean? they're going to be very, very fast.

Alan:

think they're going to have the ability to get out of vehicles after the vehicle moves.

Brad:

or at least some, somebody will,

Alan:

I think noise Marines in a rhino, rhino moves, noise Marines get out and they can fire. And then maybe they even have a strat to move after firing. I could see something like that. Like speed army has to have speed, not just speed to charge, not just run and charge. They have to have a bunch of other like Emperor's children really should feel like Eldar. It should feel similar. To Eldar movement.

Brad:

want Thrill Seekers, I want Noise Marines, I want Slendish Demons, I want an army that has shit that other people do not have.

Alan:

I want this to have headhunters.

Brad:

yeah, just

Alan:

Slaanesh should have headhunters. when you kill the enemy character, something great happens for you.

Brad:

the units though, they should have different units. You shouldn't just go, it's chaos. I love the fact that they have a unit that is different. It's through seekers. They have a unit that's different. It's noise brains. Give me more of that

Alan:

I want some unique demons in the Slaanesh Codex that only Slaanesh have.

Brad:

She'll X is going

Alan:

Yeah, but Shalaxy's Shalaxy. I want like a new cast. I want a new, I know, I know, I know that. I'm just saying like, I want a new cast of like some other type of demon. I don't know. Like make it look like a lemur or something. I don't know.

Brad:

new Slaanesh Demon?

Alan:

Something like, I don't know. Go off of the seekers. Take the seekers. Take the chariots. Take something there. Make something new. Some kind of like slanesh like beast. I feel like there, there's something there, you know, would be amazing. Honestly. A flyer. I know you hate flyers because of game mechanics because of themes and stuff like it'd be really cool if slanesh had like, I don't know, like some kind of Drake, like some kind of like slanesh fire dragon thing.

Brad:

to,

Alan:

cool.

Brad:

I'd just like to see more just straight up Slaanesh shit. Like, You're Chaos, so you should have access to every single 5 million units that Chaos has. Same thing they do with brains. No

Alan:

Well, it's not just that

Brad:

to you.

Alan:

it's not just that I also don't like rinse and repeat. So like,

Brad:

Right.

Alan:

okay. Like they're going to get, like, it's, I understand some of rinse and repeat is good, but honestly, if we really want to talk about it, the flawless blades are just their version of. You know, chosen, that's what they are. They're like Slanesh chosen.

Brad:

I'm okay with that though.

Alan:

I am okay with that too, but I don't think that solves the actual thing you want, right? Like if they get these infractors and the infractors are basically like space Marine scouts.

Brad:

but you gotta have

Alan:

cool.

Brad:

They're corrupted. They've been in, they have over 10, 000 years of corruption in them. doing Slaanesh shit. These are followers of Slaanesh.

Alan:

I'm all for that.

Brad:

shit.

Alan:

all for that. I just think we need to have, or we should have, or GW should be thinking about having. At least one like 40 K new unit that isn't like other units. Isn't like a, just a new skin and one demon unit that isn't a new skin, right? Like that, that mutilix beast thing in the thousand sons. That's a cool idea. The vortex beast that was like that came out for a thousand sons specifically.

Brad:

all line of Zs is super cool too.

Alan:

there you go.

Brad:

saying you can have some shit like that. But I think they're doing a good job with, I do like the fly, so they're gonna be their own version of chosen. I'm okay. As long as they put their own stank on it. I think that's cool. I think that they should have, they should have some whack ass. Version of cultists that are something else pleasure

Alan:

that,

Brad:

something

Alan:

you know, the harp chick, the chicken with the harp, is that an AOS model?

Brad:

Oh, no, you're talking about the epitome. It looks like that.

Alan:

I'd love like a big guy who's ripped apart a back of something and like pulled up his like lungs and like everything and he's like playing it like an accordion or something like that. Like make a new model like that, like a scary new model or something.

Brad:

Hey, I want a new model for new new cultists. Like the world leaders have jackals. Thousands of sons have zangars Give Emperor's Children some sort of pleasure seeker cultist. You know what I mean? pretty easy to know why people want to worship Slaanesh.

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

are now a cultist of Slaanesh. Make them fast, super weak, and have like of Fennel Pain or something because they're doing

Alan:

It'd be cool to have like heat a night warriors or something like that.

Brad:

anything.

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

have them be odd, have them be really fast, unbelievably, have no save, but I feel no pain. You know what I mean? It'd be like the opposite of a pox walker, basically, you know, a fast pox walker that Is super not durable. You know what I mean?

Alan:

Mm hmm.

Brad:

than normal, but it has a six up. These guys are just be almost dark Eldar looking as far as their clothing and stuff, cause they just be pleasure seekers, you know, weird slanesh stuff they're wearing, you know, bikini basically into war because they're so jacked up on drugs and

Alan:

I like that.

Brad:

like don't have the

Alan:

But speaking of poxwalkers, poxwalkers are a form of, what would you say, like nastiness? Like, what kind of nastiness do you think poxwalkers are? Like they're like a pestilent plague of just nonsense, right? Yeah.

Brad:

Gross zombie.

Alan:

Yeah, and unbelievably like what would the feeling be like if a pox walker was in your stomach, how would you feel?

Brad:

A pox walker. Well, you would already have been taken over because you're a resurrected dead.

Alan:

Well, if you wanted to solve that you would drink some Carl Jepsen malorts. We got Carl Jepsen Chicago style Malorts, this is so good. Just sip it. Just sip it. Enjoy it This is, this is good stuff. This is, this is Wormwood. Wormwood. This is a barreled age malorts bottle. And you know, I will tell you from personal experience, a shot of malorts a day keeps the doctor away.

Brad:

Away.

Alan:

it keeps all of the pox walker away. All of the Nurgle away, and you just live life like an awesome, slanesh, exquisite specimen of just cleanliness. So, Carl Jepsen's. I don't know if you could buy this everywhere, actually. Brad, do you know if Jepsen's

Brad:

No.

Alan:

in Ohio? Like, if

Brad:

I do not

Alan:

you go into a liquor store in Ohio, can you find Jepsen, my lord? I think, yeah. I think it's everywhere.

Brad:

I'm not 100 percent sure how malorts, the only time we have it is when you get your Chicago and Indiana people push malorts on us and we're like, I guess

Alan:

It's fantastic. So,

Brad:

have some.

Alan:

I always have multiple bottles.

Brad:

I think Chicago people are required by law. They pull you over and go, do you have malorts at your

Alan:

What if, what if I were to have a stomachache, and I didn't have it? what would I take? Pepto?

Brad:

sounds crazy and you can

Alan:

Lame. That's the way to go. But anyways, so Nash, very excited. Emperor's children. Very excited.

Brad:

You know, one of the leaks,

Alan:

and I pumped him.

Brad:

The fact that they're saying that Blastmasters might have an 18 inch range, kind of like most of the Meltas and stuff are, and that's, used to have 48. I think if they made that, like, super devastating, but like to see them have multiple ranges, like a

Alan:

I think it's 18. I think it's 18 because I'm guaranteeing you they can go on a vehicle. The vehicle is going to have the ability to have extra movement. The squad's gonna be able to get out of the vehicle. The squad's gonna be able to shoot and the squad's gonna be able to move. So I think it's

Brad:

but I

Alan:

They're going to shorten the range.

Brad:

love Short range ish guns that are super powerful because if you shoot something very close to somebody, they can then do something back and it makes the game more interactive.

Alan:

I think the blast master can go up to strength 12, like negative three Rand

Brad:

I would

Alan:

in six plus one,

Brad:

Yeah.

Alan:

I think it could be really strong.

Brad:

I like the ability for those. If you're going to shoot a big guns, I hate shit. That's like a nine. And there's low range firepower is fine, but like the most devastating guns. I love when they're up close and personal

Alan:

I like having variation though, like that close up dangerous gun would be cool. Like if the blast master was like 18 inches, two shots, not D three, I hate D three, two shots at 18 strength, 12 negative three, you know, and then like D six plus two or D six plus one damage. I know it's going to be random damage. Cause it always is. They're not just going to give us the flat four, which is what we all pray for. But then they have the other, I would say they have another one where it's 36 inch range. Maybe like 2d6 shots strength for something like that. No rent,

Brad:

away.

Alan:

They both ignore cover though, no matter what.

Brad:

sense on that too,

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

sound based weapons too,

Alan:

Yeah, there's sonic weapons, right? So it's all the sonic weapons are going to ignore cover. So I think it's cool.

Brad:

with this.

Alan:

So underrated right now in the game, just getting in the test games for adepticon lately. Like I've been realizing like, whoa, like everything has covered and that's just annoying. Like so annoying.

Brad:

I'm gonna rant. You ready for my rant?

Alan:

Sure.

Brad:

I gotta channel my chi, my focus, because it is so insane right now that you always have cover. Dude, if you're a big creature or a tank or anything else and you don't have cover, you screwed something up. Because all you have to do is have the tip of your tail or your gun or something slightly behind a building. If your opponent can't see the whole model, you get cover. Even if it's the tip of your tail, you're like, dude, you're right there. Nah, I got cover man. You didn't see the very tip of my tail, the tip of this gunbow. It's so easy. It's a couple of leaf blows by the battlefield. All of a sudden you get cover from my last cannon. Cover saves should be because you're in cover It used to be, remember in the day, if you wanted a cover save on a big creature, on a creature, a vehicle, a monster, something like that, you had to have at least 50 percent period. Couldn't see it. That makes sense.

Alan:

They've been trying to get away. I understand what they're doing. I don't agree with it, right? But that's because I'm biased. I'm clearly biased. I never minded the interaction part of the game, even when it was argumentative in some ways, like I liked scattered ices and deciding how many guys were under a template. I didn't mind. I also love the idea of arguing about which armor facing am I looking at?

Brad:

Minority

Alan:

I was fine with all that stuff, right? I never had a problem with that. I always thought it was a part of the game. So I think covers the same thing. Like, you know, you'd have the same argument, like, oh, that's not 50%. You know, you're playing certain people and like a smidge of their model was blocked and you'd argue for like five minutes. That used to be a part of the game. They got rid of it all. You just got rid of everything.

Brad:

They should be things that are above and beyond, like, oh man, that's awesome that they also do that as opposed to, you know, that everybody's in cover. You start doing the AP on your weapons, the armor penetration, you just assume that your opponent has cover most of the time unless he's just standing in the middle of nowhere.

Alan:

Yeah. Like AP one, no, no, ignore cover is basically useless.

Brad:

at their safe, yeah. It's just, it's crazy. if you're in cover, great. If you're standing in that building, you're shooting now. Yeah, you get covered. It makes sense. If you're guy is, you know, can barely be seen, whatever. I covers too easy covers a great mechanic because yes, you should get a benefit to your safe. If you have intervening terrain between you and the hail of bullets, it's coming

Alan:

Yeah. Cover used to be harder to, to game harder to play. Correct. And now it's just a free thing. What, in your opinion, I think I have an idea on what I would say is a skill that still requires a lot of polishing and, and I think top tier players probably do this, but. I think everyone should do this and get, get used to doing this. And since cover isn't a thing anymore, right? Covered, you just have cover. You just exist in, in the ether of terrain, whether it's WTC or GW or whatever, you're just getting cover all the time. So forget about cover. And we talked about a lot of other aspects, about, deployment and army list building, but I think something that goes overlooked quite often, and then when I watch 40 K being played, which I don't watch all the time, but when I do watch, I don't see enough pre measuring of. Of, of like your final placement of your models and also during your opponent's turn, like, I feel like a lot of people when they move their models, they don't always take into consideration the proximity of their final resting place of their turn and the spacing between them and their opponent. Now, after they've moved. And I think that is so, so important. And I, I'll come at it from a bias perspective. You can come or not, maybe not bias specific, but I would say a negative perspective. I'm curious what your thoughts are real quick. My negative thought is people don't move correctly, whether it's intentional or not intentional. So when you are playing against someone who has a unit that moves, I don't know, like eight inches, let's say. And you're like, I want to make sure they can not charge me. So you want to be outside of that 20. 1. You want to ask, you know, Hey, is there any way you can run and charge? So anyway, you can get any extra movement and charge. No, there's no way. Okay, cool. And then you can move your unit. And then when you're done moving your unit, feel free to either tell your opponent or not tell your opponent it's up to you. But measure that, like when you, when you finally put your unit down.

Brad:

first.

Alan:

Figure out how far, well, I always measure first. I think a lot of people measure first, people forget to measure after, and also people forget to measure when they pass the turn. So when I pass my turn, I see you starting to move your models. I'm pulling out my tape measure. I want to know exactly how far you are before that model moves in some instances, especially if I think it's going to be important, I'm checking it. So that I can just use simple math to make sure that there's no shenanigans with the way that my opponent is actually moving. And I think that's a really good skill.

Brad:

have to have a conversation with it too, though, because I'm going to hang you. agree. Okay, cool. I'm outside. And, or if you have a potential for a charge, what is it? You know what I mean? I'm 18 inches away. have to make a tenant's charge. We both agree that if you move to here, it's time to charge. Do we all agree? Great.

Alan:

Sometimes I just want to see the character of the person I'm playing. So I'll measure it without saying anything. And then I'll see what kind of game we're playing and then I'll just adjust my tactics.

Brad:

willing to argue more than I am.

Alan:

So

Brad:

I'm so willing to leave with my wine and go,

Alan:

I'm like, Oh, so you made the charge in an eight. Yeah. I made the church and eight, I roll an eight. It's right here. Oh, okay. Cool, cool, cool, cool. And then meanwhile, I know the math is like, just not there to support that. This is also about your strategy. Keep in mind, like. I think you'll back me up on this a lot. You have a lot more experience with this than I do right now. But placement of transport vehicles next to obscuring terrain and placement of units that are hiding and obscuring, but have an ability to get to an objective and placement of the way you charge or the way you're planning a charge in relation to objectives. Those three categories, super important. You want to know. If anything happens to this unit or this vehicle, can I get out? Do I have the movement to get out and where can I get, can I clear the wall right enough so that I'm safe if I, if I need to get an objective, can I get to it?

Brad:

something if I, if you charge me here and that's a lot of times that you want to make it so defensively, know, your stuff beforehand. Oh, if you charge me here, I'm going to make it. So your model doesn't fit, you know, between this tank and this wall.

Alan:

figure out what your goals are and work backwards

Brad:

Yeah. And the thing is it's important that you measure your own stuff. one of the biggest things is measure out what you're going to do before you start moving models. So you know that your plan actually is, can physically

Alan:

and measure your deployment before you deploy a unit to

Brad:

it, you should already know exactly what you're going to do before you start putting stuff out. I do this constantly. I'm just like, I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but I'm like, I'm just going to deploy. your deployment kind of means nothing to me. You're forward. You have to put out, you know, your four deployers and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Yes. But like if you and I are playing, I'm not just going to stand out in the middle of nowhere and go, hope I go first. I'll get shot in the face.

Alan:

what's the percentage of tables at a tournament. If you go to a tournament with a hundred tables. And so there's 200 players and you were to walk around on deployment before turn one, and you walked around the entire tournament of a hundred tables today, still today with the internet, with all the advice you have from all these, you know, third party companies or these companies that work to provide advice. How many tables, Brad, do you think there is a unit out in the open doing nothing, doing nothing

Brad:

than half.

Alan:

and would not need to be there. Like how, what is your guess on how many tables still do that?

Brad:

more half or more. And I'm going to give you the thing that's almost worse. Is when you deploy so turtle that you can't reach any of the objectives There's a good, there's that goatee lock zone. you got to pre measure your movement, their movement. It's so silly to me that you don't know how far your opponent's stuff goes, just ask them. it's a social game. If I don't understand what you have on the table, I'll just ask what it is. How far can you go? Can you go farther than if I have the app up. And it says you go this far. Can you make that farther? You have more, you know, what can you do? Cause I'm going to plan based on how far you're going to plan. It's all about spacing. you think about it, like fighting, you know what I mean? How far, how much distance can you cover? You probably a lot more than me. I'm probably not going to try to work the jab against Alan. Cause he can punch me out of frame.

Alan:

Yeah, also, I feel like it's really important when you're doing all this measurement, this pre measurement and you're planning out the turns too, because you could decide the strategy of when to commit and when to move a lot more relative to the current score, right?

Brad:

huge

Alan:

do something too early. Right. You want to do the move too early. You've, you've put yourself in the right position. You've measured, you've done everything we've said and you're, you're nailing it. Right. And your opponent knows that you're nailing it and your opponent's also patient now because of your potions, your opponent's waiting for you to commit or you're waiting for them to commit. Right. Play the game with the score in mind. Keep that score in mind. Don't be like Brad, get to turn five and disagree with the score with your opponent and your opponent thinks it's 95 and Brad thinks it's 96 or something like that. Don't do that. Get your score figured out every single turn.

Brad:

well, that's a percent agree. And one of the big things I see people do all the time that's wrong is you don't know your score. So you don't know if you're winning, continue to win.

Alan:

Just sit.

Brad:

Well, that's a big deal. Well, you have a problem with that. One of us here needs to go everywhere.

Alan:

Well, I don't win. I lose

Brad:

Yeah,

Alan:

one or the other.

Brad:

I'll just keep getting my shitty wins

Alan:

let's be honest right now. If I went to a tournament right now, I would get all zeros. So it's not happening anymore, but the old me would be trying to get a hundred.

Brad:

to do. Everybody's going to make a mistake, period. I don't care if you're the best player in the universe or you're the worst player in the universe. You have to have pre measured that you can interact with their bad moves. If somebody puts themselves too aggressive, if they go too passive, if somebody plays you too passive, don't do shit. Just stand on objectives and run up points. If they play you too aggressive, let them extend out. into your traps and start killing stuff, but you have to have measured out where they can go, where you can go and start understanding that spacing between your units and their units. And especially onto the objectives, you have to be able to go. If he stands on an objective, what am I doing about this?

Alan:

correct.

Brad:

before start doing

Alan:

And I can, tell a real life example, right? The year that we played custodians at Adepticon turn five against Clark Walsh's team, Elliot and I are playing on our table and You and Mitch we're killing it. and we knew that this was the tournament. This was it. Like we had to win this round. So I think it was like turn three or something like that. And I'm just like, Elliot, let's full set. Let's full set. You know, I really wanted to like, just send up the custodes, get in there, get tight in combat, win combats and go forward. And we were playing a pretty competitive at the time elder army. It was pretty scary. They had a lot of really good stuff that could really like do a lot of damage to us. And we were playing very much cat and mouse. They would put something on an objective. we would deal with that in a way where it was the least amount of stuff to lose. And it's turn three and I go, let's, let's full send. Elliot goes, no, why? And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, let's go win. And He's like, here's the current score and he put it on the paper and I'm like, okay, yeah, that's right. He's like, if we do nothing, here's the score next turn. If we do nothing again, here's the score next turn. You guys were going first. So you guys did full send. I saw your table and it worked out for you. It worked out for you. On our table though, we had bottom of turn and bottom of turn, as everyone knows is, well, especially back then before they like try to, you know, get things a little bit more, even bottom of term was really strong. So Elliot was showing me that we were down like five or six points, maybe on turn five. But with bottom of turn, he's like, if we have this unit, this unit, and this unit is still alive. This is our score. And I'm like, Oh, okay. Yeah. Let's just sit like it was so clear. And Clark being one of the best players ever. Top of five. It's like, I thought I'd get you to commit. You guys won. And he just calls it because he knows he already knew everything. Elliot knew

Brad:

he can do

Alan:

there's nothing he could do.

Brad:

that's, a big problem in 40k right now depending on the terrain you're playing on. If you're playing on a lot of the standard GW boards, second turn versus two really good players. The person that goes second has such a bananas advantage on that because you get to watch me play my last turn and you can't do shit about it because I score my objectives. they gotta let that go.

Alan:

I just think

Brad:

I

Alan:

back random game length four or five, six, it goes to six and one, two, three, it doesn't.

Brad:

can't

Alan:

it's,

Brad:

kind of thing.

Alan:

Yeah, it's a total different story. it gives the game one more turn.

Brad:

think about it right now at the

Alan:

Well, You could full send on six,

Brad:

but I'm just saying right now at the bottom of five, if you're the second player. You push all of your shit, wherever you feel like you don't even care if you're every, every one of your units is, is legitimately sitting in the open, no cover, no anything.

Alan:

So what do you do If it's only a 50 percent chance, the game ends, how do you do that now? Like, do you still full send you, do you half commit? Like, what do you do?

Brad:

I

Alan:

That's, a cool part of the game.

Brad:

have

Alan:

Yeah,

Brad:

now,

Alan:

yeah,

Brad:

also get punished. You just YOLO in and it goes another turn.

Alan:

Because there's so many games where the score is like, you know, 77 63 and then the guy with 63 has got bottom. He's just waiting, waiting, waiting, full commits, gets that 15 point jump and all of a sudden it's like, you know, 82 678 or something like that, right? He like, he just jumps over leapfrogs the score. But if you don't know the game is ending, it's much harder to do that much harder.

Brad:

because he could go, Oh, I have a one point win. You're like, Nope, it went another turn. Now you're going to get buried. You know what I mean? So you're going to get a zero on your turn because you got no models. You know, I like that a lot more because of the fact that you just, you don't get to just use your, your units willy nilly. There has to always be a pros cons to anything you do. You know what I mean? So I'd like to see more of that 100%. I love that. I love that. You brought that up on that because it's a big deal because I really do think second turn became too powerful and I never thought first term was such a big deal.

Alan:

It is on planet bowling ball terrain, but that doesn't exist anymore.

Brad:

yeah, I mean, certain missions like if you have super aggressive armies, like you have a world leaders on search and destroy kind of thing. Yes. First turns good for them on that. You need to have four deployers. I like the fact that they made the most aggressive armies not have four deployers world leaders. None of them, all of them have huge scouts, put somebody think in front of them, then they can't scout. Of course, you know, obviously they kill whatever you put in front of them, but they're not on top of you. It gives you a chance to do stuff.

Alan:

Yeah. some of the grossest stuff in the past has been like, I could take 30 dudes, put it right in front of your face and then also move up the entire board.

Brad:

Now

Alan:

Oh,

Brad:

turns a big deal.

Alan:

I don't know what we're like, you know, I think guard had a time where they had like, you know, I just surround you with horses. I move all my guys move, we'll move. I have the whole board. I pin you.

Brad:

like eighth edition cast

Alan:

Yeah. Oh, eighth edition chaos. The Zangor's Zangor's could teleport round one. And then.

Brad:

but a

Alan:

Oh.

Brad:

40 man cultist

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

basically show up and go,

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

on top of you and join never moving again.

Alan:

Yeah. You got wrecked at ATC with that. And, one of your things got not one game, one game, one game you got messed up.

Brad:

Now, that was a different year with a different thing. And that was because I did not listen to Robert Downey. instead of just playing the game, I got real mad that something didn't die. I beat my head so hard against the wall. I was like, I can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Alan:

I think that's the last point I'll make. you just touched on another really good thing. People need to always keep in mind dice or dice, dice or dice play. Just keep playing the game. There are some players that will not quit a game no matter what happens, and there are other players that the moment the dice have a single role that is not statistical. They shut down completely. Like when the math doesn't work, they're just like, ah, well, I lost this because of the dice. No, you lost. Cause you just right now gave up.

Brad:

You get pulled in that game was a bad game for me, but it's funny because it's one in them. In whatever thousands of games I played

Alan:

yeah, I know that.

Brad:

typically you have to think to yourself, what's the score. I can't tell you the amount of games. I've won where it looks like I've got my head kicked in one of my favorites is one of my buddies that doesn't play 40 K came to see me and I was playing at a random tournament. he's one of my friends. That means he wants to talk shit to me. So he walks up and it looks like I'm getting wrecked. My opponents got like a million miles and I have like four other. he walks up, he's like, ah, shit's going brand for brand. My opponent just goes, he's actually winning by like 38 right now. he's like, what? And I had just been scoring, scoring, scoring, killing. He's scoring. You don't get it.

Alan:

Yeah.

Brad:

gives you a sticker for killing shit.

Alan:

So I think Mitch has the record on this. Mitch Tucker got, I think like a 20 zero. I think he max wind an event, a tournament game, one tournament game, like round two of a tournament. He did not kill a single model.

Brad:

I love it.

Alan:

He didn't kill one model. I think his whole army died almost. It was like Eldar versus gray Knights at the time. This was several editions ago, probably sixth. And he did not kill one model, not a single one. And he won the game by a landslide. And I know that sounds stupid right now. Cause like in all of the rules right now, you have to kill stuff, but these missions were different back then it was all about objectives

Brad:

all

Alan:

And it was a progressive mission. This was back when like we had like the ITC slash Nova styles and this was a Nova style. So it was a progressive mission. So you were getting points every turn. There wasn't like this big sweeping points at the end. it was every single turn. And because he was Eldar, he was just able to be everywhere, get all the points, you know, he had like all the stuff you should have, but it's so interesting to think about the fact that, you know, it's like that guy who won a fortnight game without moving, like he dropped in a tree or something, I don't know, and he ended up winning the fortnight game without moving. I don't know if you know that story. It's a sick story. Yeah. So really cool stuff. Very excited. So. But anyways, that's it for today's chapter on the chapter 416 podcast. We thank you guys for listening. Hopefully you got a couple of gems out of today's podcast episode. Feel free to help us out with the algorithm and just really quickly hit the thumbs up button and like the show. If you want to subscribe, subscribe as well. If you want to subscribe, you'll get to know when our, when our episodes come out, and then if you want to, you know, support the show in any way, feel free to join our Patrion and help us out. So thanks a lot. My name is pajama pants. That is Brad Chester

Brad:

This guy.

Alan:

and we are out.