S2E6 Stop Trying to Fix Yourself: Self-Trust Over Self-Improvement w/Dr. Leslie B Newman

Ever feel like you’ve been “doing the work” for years and somehow still end up back in the same place, asking yourself what’s wrong with you? We’re pulling the plug on that idea with Dr. Leslie B. Newman, psychologist, author, and positive psychology expert, because growth isn’t a straight line and you’re not a project to be completed. We talk about what it looks like when progress comes in loops, not checklists, and why self-trust is often the real goal hiding underneath self-improvement. We get practical about mental health tools that work for real life. Dr. Newman breaks down why therapy is a matching process, how different therapy types can fit different people, and why curiosity beats shame when you’re trying to find support. We also share a simple emotional regulation approach she calls the “magic closet,” plus a powerful shower visualization for releasing what you’re holding and refilling yourself with something lighter when you’re tired, stretched thin, or on the edge of reacting. Then we go straight at the internet’s favorite trap: toxic positivity. Dr. Newman explains how real positive psychology doesn’t deny grief, anger, or exhaustion, it makes room for it, because the only way out is through. We also talk about how to show up for someone in pain without trying to say the perfect thing, and why presence can be the most supportive language.If you’re in a hard season, this one will meet you where you are and still help you find one next right step. 

🔗  Dr. Leslie B. Newman

drlesliebnewman.com

Follow Dr. Leslie on Facebook

📘  A Daily Dose of Happiness by Dr. Leslie B. Newman

Available at drlesliebnewman.com — and the audio version is available too, perfect for your walks.

Get the book → https://amzn.to/4vh38dg (paid link)

📖  From Kansas to Oz — Dr. Newman's next book

Completed and currently seeking literary representation. Stay close — it's coming.

🧠  Curious about the types of therapy mentioned?

Therapy is a matching process — there's something out there that fits you. Start by exploring:

drlesliebnewman.com — Dr. Newman's resources

Psychology Today Therapist Finder — search by therapy type near you

🔬  Carl Jung & the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator

Dr. Newman's Jungian therapist shaped her early growth. Jung also developed the framework behind the Myers-Briggs personality assessment.

Learn more at myersbriggs.org →

✨  Barbara Brennan School of Healing

Dr. Newman is a graduate of the Barbara Brennan School of Healing — the energy healing framework she references throughout this conversation.

barbarabrennan.com →

CONNECT THE EPISODES

⬅️  Previous episode — S2E5

Don't Be a Jagoff — And Don't Let One Run Your Life

Emotional regulation, the stop sign, and what to do with all that energy before it runs you.

Listen now →

➡️  Coming up next

Sherry and Jodi take everything Dr. Newman gave us and bring it home. What does a growth mindset actually look like in real everyday life? The real version.

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Transcript

You Are Not A Finish Line

Sherry 0:00

Have you ever chased self-improvement like it was a finish line? Like if you just read enough, fixed enough, worked hard enough, one day you'd be done? Today's guest, Dr. Leslie B. Newman, is a psychologist, author, and positive psychology expert, and she has something really important to say about that. Growth isn't a straight line, and you're not a project to be completed.

Childhood Sensitivity And Early Therapy

Sherry 0:34

Welcome, Dr. Newman, to This Is It.

Leslie Newman 0:37

It is a pleasure to be here

Sherry 0:39

We're glad to have you.

Leslie Newman 0:41

Thank you.

Sherry 0:42

Your work is all about happiness and growth, but it sounds like you came to that from your own nonlinear path. We say a sort of theme about this podcast is turning potholes to purpose.

Leslie Newman 0:55

Mm-hmm.

Sherry 0:55

So, we were curious about the potholes that put you on this road.

Leslie Newman 1:02

It's such a great question because of course, I became who I am because of what I've been through, right? I lived a life where it, it looked ostensibly, fine. We lived in a nice neighborhood in a suburb of Chicago. But, there was a lot of undercurrent of discontent. And as a young kid, I didn't really understand what it was, but I sensed it. I was a, I was just a really sensitive kid, and I didn't know what it was. But there was anger. I wasn't sure what was happening. My mom seemed to always be upset and enraged about something. Like enraged. Like the kind of rage that from an energetic perspective, it would like shatter your energy field to be around it. And, what I did was retreat to my room, and in doing so, I would like read. I read everything, and I started writing everything down. I, I got a, a journal, like one of those old diaries when I was seven years old with, you know, the little lock and the key, and I just started journaling my thoughts and my feelings and listening to Joni Mitchell at the time. And, I really didn't understand what was happening, and this was a pattern. I also sensed there was something going on with my brother, who was nine years older than I was, and it just, I didn't know. And then one day, it all just blew up. You know, my parents were having a fight, and they're like you know, "Ask." I, what I, what we found out was that my brother was a half-brother, and that just really, reinforced that I had something that I really understood. And I knew that I started sensing things. I am grateful because I think that taught me about being an observer. And I started asking questions like, "Why are people like this? Why is this happening? What's going on?" And those questions, I think, fueled really my entire career. What's going on here? I always wanted to pull back the curtains, go, "This doesn't make any sense, and I wanna make sense of this, so how can I do that?" And for me, it was writing, it was reading, it was, um, uh, overeating. So I think overeating was a way that at least got me into therapy, really. My parents had me on Weight Watchers when I was in third grade, and it was just, it was awful, 'cause at those times it was like, you know, tuna in a cup. It was just awful. It was like punitive, you know?

Sherry 3:25

Right, right.

Leslie Newman 3:27

So I think getting into therapy at a young age really taught me about observing the behavior of other people and separating myself in a positive way from what was occurring around me, and I developed inner strengths, inner Places where I found understanding of what I observed, and I had a place to, like, discuss it with a wise woman. Like, "What the heck is going on?" You know, I'd get to a kind of point, and we would talk about it in my therapy sessions through high school, really. I mean, started young, through high school.

Sherry 4:01

Yeah.

Leslie Newman 4:03

So-

Sherry 4:04

where did that lead you to? What is the path that you're on now? Because we know, but our listeners

Turning Curiosity Into A Psychology Career

Leslie Newman 4:09

Yeah. Well, I spent that time understanding that I wanted to observe and understand what was going on, and that led me to studying psychology in college, to doing research in college on these questions, and then to a doctorate in psychology. I loved it. I mean, I just loved looking at why, looking at the mind from so many perspectives. It was like a smorgasbord of ideas and opportunities and engagement and conversations. So, so I have a doctorate in psychology, and then my path was teaching. So I developed courses and taught at the university. I taught at the college. I developed a mindfulness course for the university. I developed the positive psychology course, the first online course there. Whatever they asked me to teach, that's what I taught. At the time, I was a single mom, so I taught everything.

Sherry 5:02

Oi.

Jodi 5:03

I love that you

Sherry 5:04

Yeah

Jodi 5:05

that discomfort into curiosity, or maybe not even turned it into it. Maybe that's just who you are, but it's amazing that you could have that insight. It sounds like it came pretty young too.

Leslie Newman 5:17

Well it did, but I had those opportunities, you know? It's like I had a wise guide in my therapist, really. And so I could bring those questions and, bounce them around, and I trusted her. And she was honest with me And she saw my parents too, individually sometimes, and she would be honest. Like, Leslie, don't knock on that door, like, with your mom. Knock on your dad's door for questions." And my dad was quiet, but was quietly building his empire kind of thing. And, that really helped me to see from an adult's perspective my family a lot. Helped me a lot

Sherry 5:50

And then be able to start to develop your own tools for navigating life in the environment that you were in at that time, and then what would come down for the future.

Leslie Newman 5:58

mm-hmm. Yes

How To Find The Right Therapy Fit

Sherry 6:00

Can you speak to the therapy piece for just a moment?

Leslie Newman 6:03

Yeah

Sherry 6:04

Part of our purpose is to help people fill their toolkits, you

Leslie Newman 6:07

Mm-hmm

Sherry 6:07

you know, your life kit. While I feel like the stigma around psychology and therapy and things like that is getting better, but at the same time, there's still a resistance, and I think, there are some key underlying reasons for why people might be resistant, or how they see therapy because,

Leslie Newman 6:25

AHN

Sherry 6:25

I see it as a tool. I

Leslie Newman 6:27

Yeah

Sherry 6:28

You know, you don't necessarily need to be in a crisis moment to benefit from seeing a therapist. I, I sort of see it as, like, going to the dentist or whatever other medical specialist, not that you have to stay in perpetual therapy, but that there shouldn't be this feeling of shame or failure if you find yourself feeling like you would benefit from talking to a professional. So

Leslie Newman 6:56

Yeah

Sherry 6:56

what do you think are some of the barriers there?

Leslie Newman 7:01

It's like a match process really, 'cause there's so many different kinds of therapeutic interventions. So many. Like, I would not have responded to a cognitive behavioral therapy at that time. I was too young. I didn't have the cognition in that way. I feel like it's a matching process, and sometimes you have to do a little bit of shopping, honestly. So, my therapist was a Jungian therapist, and I didn't know what the heck that meant at the time, but now I understand.

Sherry 7:26

I don't know what that means now.

Leslie Newman 7:27

Yeah, um, uh, so Jung had a, had a st- And I've studied Jung and I've, and I've taught Jung. There's...

Sherry 7:36

Jung

Leslie Newman 7:37

Carl Jung, yeah.

Sherry 7:38

Yes. Okay. I misheard you.

Leslie Newman 7:39

So there was a deep spiritual thread running through his work. He was the one that, um, developed the Myers-Briggs and, the INFP, all of that. That was Jung who initiated all of that. So I think I'm gonna dispel this barrier. It doesn't have to be a barrier. If you can educate yourself a little, You can find great stuff online. What different kinds of therapies are there? And then read about them, and then just get curious and ask yourself, "Does that feel like a resonance with me? Can I imagine myself sitting down and talking about, my cognitions, my beliefs, my thoughts, and dialing them down to the core belief? Can I see myself doing that?" No. Yes. Like, like you're going through, a match process. Or, if you read about, like Jung had dream therapy, and I was a prolific dreamer, so it was just a good fit for me to bring my dreams in and my dream journal and all of that. So that's what I would say. If we can dispel the resistance and just get curious, get a little educated about the different kinds of therapy. We are really, are, are choosing, um, what kind of milk we're gonna drink. Oat milk or soy milk or, you know. Let's like get that, let's like get that, you know, kind of

Sherry 8:51

Well, I don't think that people realize that there even are that many different types of therapy.

Leslie Newman 8:56

Yeah

Sherry 8:57

I know that I didn't. It... And I've had different life experiences where I ended up in a, in a different type of therapy that I didn't know.

Leslie Newman 9:06

Mm-hmm.

Sherry 9:06

I was sent to a therapy specifically for a pain specialist,

Leslie Newman 9:10

Yes

Sherry 9:11

and that particular therapist was focused on mindfulness. And

Leslie Newman 9:17

Right

Sherry 9:18

I had had therapy in the past, you know, that was completely different than any type of therapy that I had before, and it is, it's what started this podcast. I

Leslie Newman 9:27

Really?

Sherry 9:27

it planted the seeds seven years ago,

Leslie Newman 9:30

Mm-hmm

Sherry 9:31

you know? That's what got me on the path, and that's why I'm here doing this today, it was from a type of therapy that I didn't even know existed. So where do people find out about these?

Leslie Newman 9:42

Read about them on their websites. You could, really get specific if you have a name.

Sherry 9:47

Okay.

Leslie Newman 9:47

Yeah. As a college professor, I created experiences in the classroom and online that people could move into the spaces within themselves safely, and they could write to me and I could write back to them, but it was not ever one-on-one therapy.

Sherry 10:03

Sure. Okay. We're gonna jump around

Nonlinear Growth And The Spiral Path

Sherry 10:07

a little

Leslie Newman 10:07

Okay

Sherry 10:07

We're definitely talking about a non-linear path, so why not hop around? The title of your new book that you have, From Kansas to Oz,

Leslie Newman 10:15

Yeah

Sherry 10:15

I feel like that title really, does a lot of work in just a few words.

Leslie Newman 10:20

Yeah.

Sherry 10:21

And I feel like it really connects to people who feel like they've been kind of walking in circles, treading water instead of moving forward. So what does that journey look like for people

Leslie Newman 10:33

Yeah.

Sherry 10:34

who feel like they're a spinning tire?

Leslie Newman 10:35

Yeah. I think it can be really relieving to get that we don't have to go from A to B in a straight line, because we don't. I mean, we expect, the steady growth process. And even there have been some graphics that talk about that. You've seen online. Like, you know, shooting for the target and going up the staircase, but it doesn't really work, it doesn't really work that way. And I was reflecting on this and just looking at nature, and I'm like, nature doesn't grow that way. You don't see a tree, you know, straight up and down. You know, it's growing so that it can bend with the leaves and the wind, and it, it gets stronger even as those elements, um, come upon it. And I, I was thinking about this. We don't go in straight lines. Nothing in, in nature go- grows in straight lines, and I think human growth is really a lot more like that. This...

Sherry 11:27

It isn't, but we try to force it.

Leslie Newman 11:28

Right. We do try to force it, right? Like, it's like trying to force yourself into, uh... Well, I've done this. I don't know if any of the listeners have. Like, forced myself into a dress size that was a little too small because I wanted to be, in that size, in that shape. But we're all differently shaped, and we all have different, trajectories of growth. And even, the developmental psychologists that have talked about what are the steps in growth, they... It's a, it's a, it's a concept, and if we try to apply a conceptual framework, it, it won't work because we're not just that. We have so many more aspects to ourself than just a steady trajectory in one direction. And so I also thought, if I am struggling with

The Magic Closet And Releasing Energy

Leslie Newman 12:16

something I work it through, I I am success oriented. I like to know things. I like to finish things. I like to move forward. And I had to go, "Well, this has come back again, and it's okay." I- if you read that book, the first one, uh, Daily Dose, you'll read about the magic closet, and that's where I went when I was pissed off. And I'm like, "Okay, well, I'm gonna do this work." And it was work that I developed, but I'd also read a lot and, and done a lot of research around emotional resilience and emotional regulation. And so for me, this was a download. This was more like a intuitive hit, and I just called it the magic closet, and I literally like went into my closet, which was a f-

Sherry 12:58

That's so funny. I did the same when I

Leslie Newman 12:59

Did you?

Sherry 12:59

got on the mindfulness, yes. Because I knew the benefits. Like it... I

Leslie Newman 13:05

Yeah.

Sherry 13:05

to see the benefits in my life, and I was like, "Okay, this is the non-negotiable." But if the kids are up and husband's still sleeping, and where am I... What am I gonna do? I did the same damn thing.

Leslie Newman 13:16

Wow. Well, I love that simpatico. I mean, that's just so great. Yeah, so, and I don't know if you have this experience, but so I did that work. I released all, all of that, and then, the next step that I did was to call in the light and to fill the spaces that once held density. I experienced those places as dense in my field, and i- if you've read anything on my website, you know I'm a graduate of the Barbara Brennan School of Healing, and So energy was important to me. I have always been sensitive, starting as a little kid, like, "Energy in the room. What's going on with the adults?" To energy experiences I had as a teenager and energy experiences that I, studied and then taught. And so I would always, address that energetic component as well. The emotional, "I am pissed off," and let it go safely. Because I did the other thing, where I didn't let it go safely, and relationships would blow up, and I, you know, had to have the aftermath of all that. To understanding that filling that space with something lighter was so important to me, so I didn't just try to fill it with food or fill it with something else, that I could fill it with a source divine light energy that really supported me. So that's what I did on that last part of the magic closet. That's the magic of a closet. So, um,

Sherry 14:36

It sure is.

Leslie Newman 14:37

That's the magic. Was imagining the magic closet for your listeners. Like, where could they find that for themselves, and...

Sherry 14:44

Yeah.

Jodi 14:44

For me, it's a shower.

Leslie Newman 14:45

Is it the shower?

Jodi 14:46

I'm a shower crier. When I'm real frustrated and I feel like I'm gonna take a hot shower and just let it all out.

Leslie Newman 14:53

Oh yeah. That's so good.

Sherry 14:55

Mm-hmm.

Leslie Newman 14:56

That's so good.

Sherry 14:58

And this is a good spot to slow down a second for the listeners because if you were with us for our emotional regulation episode, our last episode, you heard us talk about the stop sign, that moment before you react. What Dr. Newman is describing lives on the other side of that stop sign. So once you've paused, once you've chosen not to let the jagoff win, this is what you do with all of that energy. You find your version of the closet, you find your version of the shower, you release it, and you fill the space back up with something better.

Leslie Newman 15:47

Do you mind if I share a little something 'Cause there's a water thing, it's not in any book I've written, but it's something that I've practiced a lot.

Jodi 15:53

Please

Leslie Newman 15:54

imagine w- the water in the shower, and I'm gonna premise this also by saying I lived through the hurricane, so water became very important to me. We didn't have water for 60 days, and then when it came on, it was this sparkly, beautiful, I'm gonna call it elixir, that just comes down. It was almost like, really, that was magic too. Suddenly the water was on. It hadn't been on for two months. And I could imagine that washing away whatever, like if you were in the shower and you were having your emotional release work, to fill the space after you've done that standing under a beautiful shower imagining that it was, Hawaii or someplace that would transport you to your beautiful place where you could imagine divine light pouring into you like that..

Rest In Small Moments That Count

Sherry 16:41

So our listeners are just pretty much everyday people who maybe aren't into sort of self-development or things like that. They're people that are, they're tired, they're trying,

Leslie Newman 16:56

Mm-hmm.

Sherry 16:58

and it feels like people are trying extra hard right now and a lot of people have been told their whole lives that, you know, if you just work hard enough, you'll get there. There is truth to that, but what are we getting wrong about what growth is

Leslie Newman 17:15

Yeah.

Sherry 17:16

look like? And talked a little bit about this, but I think you probably have more to say

Leslie Newman 17:20

Well, I'm missing the piece of why can't we make it, less arduous? Why can't we allow ourselves to go, "I am tired," and in that, how can I find even just a moment's rest? So I, I managed a store, and I was on my feet for 12 hours a day, and I had lots of staff. That was when I was procrastinating my first book. So I know what it feels like to have your, you know, your legs so tired from standing all day, and meeting customers, and dealing with whatever a conflict that you're having with a coworker. I know what that feels like. I would go into the bathroom at the store. It was like a 6,000 square foot store. It was big. And I would just go into the bathroom just for a minute and do what I just said. Like imagine myself being like washed away and shaking my body just to release, I'm gonna just say the crap that I had to like, hear about. You know, people weren't happy. People were upset. And it really helped because...

Sherry 18:21

because you feel the energy when they're pouring that energy onto you.

Leslie Newman 18:25

Right. So I would take that skill and apply it, when I was tired. And so I would recommend like to find a way to let your mind turn a little bit. You can say, "I'm so tired," or you can say, "I have worked so well today." You can shift your thought process and just play with it. It's not like, oh, be really serious. A practical step could just be turn it around. Like, I'm so tired could be, like I just said,, I have had a great work day. I've touched a lot of people. I didn't yell at anybody today. Yay me." You know? Or whatever it was. Yeah

Jodi 19:01

that so much because I do feel like a lot of people have this tendency, and it's probably pretty natural, that you think you have to do something big and something extreme to flip the switch and make things better. But it really is in those small moments. If you can take those teeny, tiny little moments.

Leslie Newman 19:18

You guys talk about that. It's small steps. And I would say just the next step that appears. You may not even know. Suddenly somebody will come into your environment, whatever job you're doing, and you don't know. If you, and I'm just gonna say this because this has been my experience, if I ask like, "Oh my God, I need help right now." I just would do that, and the next person would be kind. I worked in retail, so people would just start talking about their lives, and we would have a conversation. I was always so surprised when that would happen in the context of, you know, they're buying a shirt. But they weren't just buying a shirt, and they're not just getting on a bus. The way you greet somebody if you're the one driving the bus makes a huge difference to their day, to your day.

Sherry 20:04

So what energy are you bringing into the environment that you're walking

Leaving The Self Fixing Loop

Sherry 20:08

into? Yep. Yep. Somewhere along the line you talked about the shift from, self-improvement to self-trust,

Leslie Newman 20:17

Yeah

Sherry 20:18

I think that's key. I feel like the self-improvement industry is enormous now, and there are a lot of people who've consumed it for years,

Leslie Newman 20:29

Yeah

Sherry 20:29

still feel like they're not enough, so it's like this perpetual cycle of s- improvement. Where does that cycle come from and how do people get off of it?

Leslie Newman 20:40

Well, again, I, I think it, it goes back to everybody's individual. I think everybody has a different story about where that cycle came from. Where did they learn that they weren't good enough? When did that first start? And if they were to look back, they would probably see the line like, "Oh my God, my father used to tell me this when I was getting ready for school," or, "Oh, my sister made a comment about this," I think you could, if you look, I think the problem is that we don't look. If we just turn and, like, back into our past some, and maybe journal, that could be a way to do it, and ask the question in a journal, "Where the heck did this start that I'm feeling terrified when I have to make a phone call or make a reservation, or I feel terrified? Where did that come from?" Where you didn't feel like you could just trust your natural instinct. Maybe you weren't ready. Maybe you had to count to 10. Maybe you had to say, "I don't wanna do this, Mom or Dad," or, you know, your husband or partner. I think when the inception started with, "There's something wrong with you. There's something wrong here," that naturally leads to, "I've gotta fix it i've gotta fix it." And then what does that bring? So much pressure, so much, uh, bracing for, "I'm gonna fix it. I'm not gonna fix it. It's gonna happen this time. Is it gonna work? What am I gonna find out?" If there's fear around not, hmm Well, any fear, anxiety, any level of anxiety, any level of, I'm not okay the way I am, and that's, and that's a problem. So I would say to pay attention to, number one, the evidence you're finding that you need to be fixed and what that means to you. What evidence are you looking at? That's, that's the first thing that comes to mind anyway.

Jodi 22:40

That makes me think too. I think that we see, and I know this is me to a T, it's, it's, it's my personal experience. I kept seeing fixing myself as a final destination. Like, I'm going to do the work and I'm going to be fixed and then none of this stuff's ever gonna come up again. And the reality is it's always there. It's a part of the fabric of who you are now. And so just because you are okay now, those things can still pop up and you're always a work in progress.

Leslie Newman 23:07

Yeah

Jodi 23:08

I think a lot of people think, "Oh, I'm gonna go to therapy. I'm gonna work for a few months, then I'm gonna be all better and I'm never gonna do this again."

Leslie Newman 23:16

Yeah, yeah. Instead we could say like, "You know, I'm fixed. I'm fabulous. I'm going forward." Like, enough. I'm fixed, I'm fabulous, I'm going forward.

Jodi 23:27

all done now,

Leslie Newman 23:28

Thing,

Sherry 23:29

Yeah.

Leslie Newman 23:29

may come up again, and that's okay f- but because they're coming up from another level. You, you can't unlearn what you've seen the last time, and you take that with you. I mean, that's the spiral path that I talk about. You revisit, but it's like you're going up a mountain each time you're doing a turn. You've learned something more. You have more awareness, and that brings so much to bear on the experience you're having in the moment.

Jodi 23:54

Yeah, I actually name it now when I start to do a certain thing or I see a certain pattern, I'm like, "Oh, hello old friend."

Leslie Newman 24:00

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Jodi 24:02

I see you're here again.

Leslie Newman 24:04

That's so brilliant. I have this thing that I say, and I've heard you say that before, um, hello old friend. And I say when I see something coming my way, in fact, this just happened fairly recently. I was on the phone with someone that I knew. There was a conflict starting to brew, and I'm like, "You know, I'm gonna g- uh, be on a podcast in, you know, a half an hour and I gotta go." So first, good boundaries. Good boundaries. And then I, it's like, oh man, I'm getting, you know, uh, agitated by the innuendos that were coming my way, and I just said I don't need to fix or change you. I- I'm just gonna love you. Like right now, that feeling, I hadn't even named it. It was just like brewing in my belly. I don't need to fix or change you. I'm just gonna love you. And then it just was like, oh, okay. You mean I don't have to knock on the door so hard and like make it really, um, intense? Ah, okay. So that really, that's a strategy I use. Yeah.

Sherry 25:03

Do you see it as a spectrum? Many things in life are really on a spectrum, and I feel like we, we fall somewhere between, uh, you know, there... of us are in a phase where there really is little self-awareness, very little self-awareness, and then all the way to, like, the constant fixing. And I can just say, I was just floating through life for so long. I, I was not self-aware at all. It was just, you know, survival, getting through the things.

Leslie Newman 25:32

Yes

Sherry 25:33

But, the right therapies, began to open up that door, you know,

Leslie Newman 25:37

Yeah. I

Sherry 25:38

to

Leslie Newman 25:38

and look where you are now, Sherry. You have such wisdom. As I said, I was listening to the podcast and I'm like, "Does she have a degree in psychology already?" 'Cause the way you speak, really, you can tell that there's so much depth that you've experienced. It's just palpable. It really is.

Sherry 25:57

I mentioned that therapy earlier, the mindfulness

Leslie Newman 25:59

Yeah

Sherry 25:59

a certain practitioner who is retired now. But

When Insight Comes Too Fast

Leslie Newman 26:03

So you asked is,

Sherry 26:04

my

Leslie Newman 26:04

yeah,

Sherry 26:04

changed my life. It did.

Leslie Newman 26:06

you asked is, is there a spectrum from, like, little awareness to, uh, I call it awakened consciousness. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I recently had a conversation with a friend, 'cause we were talking about how we both have this tendency to, like, we can see the direction of someone's experience. We can see where they're going. And she's done this to me a couple of times. She'd be like, "Leslie, blah, blah, blah, blah," and, like, her arrow would fly right to the center of, like, whatever I was working through, but I wasn't there yet, and it always felt so, like, uh, like, so abrupt. I wasn't ready for that deeper truth yet. I was still working my way into my center to get it. And we were talking about that. That's not useful. That's more, like, narcissistic on the part of the friend or the therapist to make you have a quicker process than you're ready for, right? So the spectrum,

Sherry 26:58

You have to find it on your own.

Leslie Newman 26:59

Right, it has to be honored. As a spectrum, the way I visualize it is, uh, did you ever see, um, the old movie Willy Wonka the Chocolate Factory?

Sherry 27:10

Oh, yes. Many times.

Leslie Newman 27:10

Oh, yeah. Okay, okay. So, you know, she eats the blueberry, she's not supposed to eat the blueberry, and boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. She becomes the blueberry pie at the end of chewing the gum, okay? I see it more like, rather than a spectrum, like how much densities we've taken on in our life, and how are we at just letting them go through a breath, through... People have more or less densities around them. That's how I visualize it, versus like

Sherry 27:37

Okay

Leslie Newman 27:38

like from here to there or whatever. You know how much density you have because you know how much more waves you make in life. How much more difficulty you have. That's it's kind of like that. That's how I vision it, anyway.

Sherry 27:52

Yeah, that makes sense. What got my attention to it was, uh, um, forest bathing. I don't know if you,

Leslie Newman 27:59

Oh, yes. Yes

Sherry 28:02

That would be another episode, but there was an activity where we were spending time in silence at a stream, and afterwards were asked, like, what part of the stream did we identify with? Like,

Leslie Newman 28:14

Ooh

Sherry 28:14

like a rock? Were you the water moving through? You know, were you all these different things. And I was like, "Oh, I'm the leaf." I was a leaf just floating through life, you know. Just

Leslie Newman 28:27

Yes.

Sherry 28:28

see where it takes

Leslie Newman 28:29

Yeah

Sherry 28:30

And that was kind of a shift. That was a big shift

Leslie Newman 28:34

When

Sherry 28:34

I think every- everyone finds their own. You don't have to necessarily be forest bathing to find, People think you have your clothes off for forest bathing too. I just have

Leslie Newman 28:42

Oh, no,

Sherry 28:43

not like

Leslie Newman 28:44

not like that.

Sherry 28:45

all. But,

Leslie Newman 28:46

Oh

Sherry 28:46

everyone finds your own sort of, like, little awakening towards a shift, And that was my, "We're not doing this anymore," moment. I realized I didn't know what I didn't know until I was standing at that stream, and something shifted, and many things in my life began to change direction. And I share it because for listeners, yours might look completely different. It might be maybe not standing next to a stream. It might be a conversation, a song, even a quiet Sunday morning. But it's coming.

Leslie Newman 29:25

Do, you mind if I share, uh, this is just something that's coming to me as you're saying that. Because when I started on a path working with spiritual teachers, I was psychology and spirituality at the same time. That's just how I did it because of my sensitivity to energy in the world. And I was sitting in meditation, and there were people who were much more advanced, like I had just started, and I said almost the same thing, like, "Well, I just feel like I'm kind of, like, floating around, going where the winds take me." And I heard myself say this, and the wise people in the room basically just smiled at me, and they didn't shame me. They didn't say, "Well, you'll learn." They just smiled and were kind to my inexperience in that way. And now I've meditated for 30 years, and I understand what they meant. I understand that when you move along that whatever trajectory spiral you want to imagine for your life,

Sherry 30:27

Mm-hmm.

Leslie Newman 30:27

the world changes, not because the world's changed, but because you have changed

Sherry 30:33

Yes. So I think that's like when you're finally operating from self-trust versus self-improvement. And choosing to live life intentionally and not by chance.

Leslie Newman 30:48

Yes.

Sherry 30:48

how does... Like, I

Leslie Newman 30:50

Perfect.

Sherry 30:50

made that shift,

Mind Body Heart All Matter

Leslie Newman 30:52

Yeah

Sherry 30:52

you made that shift. How does, S- Sam down the street, like, how does he know when he's made... How does a person know when they've made that shift?

Leslie Newman 31:01

I'm gonna say also, it's, it's not the same thing for everybody. It's gonna be different for everybody. You know, the Tin Man, the Scarecrow, they're like, "I don't have courage. I don't have a heart. I don't have this. Everybody's gonna have something different that they're working on primarily, okay? And they'll know, like maybe they start on their path, whatever that is. They see, maybe they've joined, maybe they've had an addiction, and they're getting into a 12-step program, and like, oh, they're meeting other people. They're starting to look at what was this about that they were numbing themselves with alcohol or whatever. So whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Everybody has something that they return to and whatever you're working on, the lessons keep being brought forward. Like, oh, the witch is coming in, and they're throwing fire at you, and s- and Dorothy's like, "Go away," You don't have any power here," or something like that. I'm making this up. But in essence, it's whatever you're working on, that is the path that you're on, and that is the path that is leading you to your awakened consciousness as you move along it. You're not on the wrong path. You're always on the right path

Sherry 32:11

Yep.

Leslie Newman 32:12

So I would say, so wherever you are, just look at where you are. Where are the difficulties happening? Are you getting angry? Are you withdrawing from life? Are you afraid to engage with other people? I'm afraid to get with other people, then I'll, on the continuum to agoraphobia, I can't even get out of the house. So wherever you are, you start there, and then take the next step. So I would just say trust the path that you're on, because that is leading you to your be- best, most glorious life, whatever that looks for you.

Sherry 32:43

Yeah. So is that what you use the phrase c- coming home to yourself your book? Is that what you, uh, that's what

Leslie Newman 32:50

Yeah. Uh, I mean, yes, it, it is. When everything falls away, let's just say you've walked your path, you've healed whatever addiction, you're... Now you're the one that's leading the groups. Now you're the one that's up there sharing your experience. You know, that's huge from, you- you've been in the trenches, you've done that work, And now you're leading the group. That would be, you've walked the path, and the path has elevated so that now you're a leader. Not everybody is gonna be interested in awakening in the way that I have done, through meditation and spiritual teachers and that sort of experience. Not everybody's gonna be interested in that. But you can have your own awakened life, quote-unquote, from where you are. Like I just said, like being a leader for your group. Or, um, maybe you work in the kitchen, and you're always pissed off at the chef because the chef was, like, shaming you for how you were doing the line. This happens. Some chefs get really pissed off when you don't wipe off the ingredients and put them up well and do these things. And you learn to stand up to the chef and hold your space and speak your truth, not with anger, but with your inner authority, your inner power. That could be your awakening, that you took your power in that moment. And everything may change after that. How you speak to your husband or your partner, how you relate to your kids. Yeah, so it can be anything on your own path.

Jodi 34:27

Those little moments when you feel like yourself, when you're not, you just feel it

Leslie Newman 34:34

Yes. As Martin Seligman would say, your full authentic self. That was, the end goal of, in its inception, positive psychology, that we become fully and truly who we are.

Sherry 34:50

So what's kinda sticking with me is that it's more about a different relationship with ourselves, not necessarily constant of information.

Leslie Newman 35:03

Mm-mm.

Sherry 35:03

So, you know, for someone who's, like, been chasing the next book, the next podcast, the next thing, wanna implement this, I wanna... what does it look like to stop and, actually do that?

Leslie Newman 35:18

Well, first I wanna say the mind can't do it by itself. It's important, it's important, and I'm gonna go back to the Myers-Briggs. Not everybody is like an INTJ, like the architect. Really into the mind, very structured. I'm an INFP, so I'm all about emotions and feelings and, I love relational movies and that sort of thing. The mind is important. So if you wanna read things, if you wanna use cognitive, behavioral therapy, you wanna change your mind, you wanna, um, have phrases that you can insert when you're feeling a certain way, that's really, that's a great tool. Part of your toolbox, But it can't get you all the way there because we're not just minds. We're bodies, and emotions, and hearts, and relationships, and cognitions, and

Jodi 36:14

Experiences?

Leslie Newman 36:15

I'm thinking of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. You know, just moving up that trajectory of evolution just in your mind and your being. So

Sherry 36:26

Right

Leslie Newman 36:29

Yeah. So the mind can't take you all the way there. We would like it to do that, 'cause I, I think a lot of us are comfortable in the mind. It's safe. But I really feel that it's, and my life has shown me, that it's important to address some other levels for, as, I think it was Jon Kabat-Zinn, full catastrophe living. To be fully, fully yourself.

Sherry 36:52

Mm-hmm. Yep. I found myself on that path of what exactly you're saying because I had always been a, you know, mind over matter kinda person. And then I had medical stuff that impacted my cognition, I was like, "Oh, well, now my mind is the matter, so now what am I supposed to do?" So, you know, there was a shift. I was like,

Leslie Newman 37:16

Yeah

Sherry 37:16

We're not doing that anymore. So your particular corner of the psychology world that you're most, um, connected with is the positive psychology.

Positive Psychology Vs Toxic Positivity

Sherry 37:30

sometimes on social media, that can get a bad, reputation in some ways. Um, like good vibes only, just choose happiness, snap out of

Leslie Newman 37:44

I don't know

Sherry 37:44

Like, that's toxic positivity, and it's everywhere. Um, how do you separate genuine positive psychology from the version that

Leslie Newman 37:54

Yeah

Sherry 37:55

good intentions, but I think it makes people feel much worse about themselves?

Leslie Newman 38:00

I am getting shivers as I'm talking about this 'cause this feels so true. Toxic positivity is gonna ask us to deny our reality, and sugarcoat it is one way to say it. And, shift your reality so that you don't feel what you're really feeling, and that's... I think that's toxic. It's, I think it's, um,

Jodi 38:23

Or tell us it's wrong Our feelings are wrong,

Leslie Newman 38:24

a dis-

Jodi 38:25

feelings are wrong

Leslie Newman 38:26

it's a disservice. It's skewing positivity in the service of defense, right? Positive psychology was never about avoiding what you're experiencing. Uh-uh. It's about going into what you're experiencing and mucking around in it. It's not asking you to deny your reality. So if anybody ever says, you know, "Just think positive, everything's gonna be okay," that's like saying, what you're feeling inside, your pain or your grief or your anguish doesn't matter. Uh, just put a smiley face over it, and that's-

Sherry 39:06

And meanwhile, it's the most real thing that

Leslie Newman 39:08

Yeah.

Sherry 39:09

you're

Leslie Newman 39:10

You're right. Meanwhile, it is, that is where you're supposed to go.

Sherry 39:13

Yeah. Only way through your feelings

Leslie Newman 39:16

The only way out is through.

Sherry 39:17

Yeah.

Leslie Newman 39:18

The only way out is through. There's no shortcut. The only way out is through.

Sherry 39:23

Mm-hmm.

Jodi 39:24

Amen to that.

Leslie Newman 39:25

Yeah.

Sherry 39:26

In our emotional regulation episode, we talked about what happens when we either blow up or stuff it down and how neither one actually works. So what Dr. Newman is naming right here is the third trap, and it's sneaky because it looks healthy. Toxic positivity is what happens when you skip that regulation step altogether and just paste a smile over the whole thing. And to me, that's like throwing a picture over the hole in the wall and the hole's still there. Life is great and it's beautiful and wonderful, but it doesn't feel good all the time.

Leslie Newman 40:03

No. It's not possible.

Sherry 40:05

Yeah. I think that sets people up to feel like they are failing,

Leslie Newman 40:10

Yeah.

Sherry 40:11

when it's not real life.

Leslie Newman 40:11

It does a disservice,

Sherry 40:12

real life

Leslie Newman 40:14

right? Or, or, or it's like bypass. It's like happiness bypass, or like anger bypass, or, um, discord bypass. It's a bypassing, toxic positivity, I would call it a bypass. Some people like try to meditate their problems away. That's not the same thing. They would call it spiritual bypass, right? So we could call this, you know, um, happiness bypass. You can't just like put a happy face on it But I have to say, there are also, and I happen to be one of these people, it's weird, I took that Clifton, you know, strength inventory that businesses take. My number one strength is happiness and positivity, and my number two is strategy. So I naturally look at things as a half glass full. I naturally do that, and I think that's important to say, too. There are people that just have that. We look at things half full. But that's not the same thing as saying,, like if somebody dies or something, "They're in a better place." That's not a platitude kind of experience. It's, it's real.

Jodi 41:15

Two things can be true at once. You can be very happy and still really get pissed off at, at a situation that you're in or whatever you're dealing with. Like, you can be a

Leslie Newman 41:24

Yeah.

Jodi 41:24

and happy person and still get really angry

Leslie Newman 41:28

Yeah.

Jodi 41:28

really sad, and that's

Leslie Newman 41:29

Absolutely

Sherry 41:31

Yeah. I think that's a key shift because we are so programmed to this or that, and it can be this and that. Yeah, so

Leslie Newman 41:41

so brilliant. That is so... Yes, this and that.

Sherry 41:45

But when you're trying to a supportive friend or someone is going through something that is just awful, you genuinely want to inspire hope for the person, um, but not that certain cheerfulness that just sort of shuts people down? It's a struggle to know how do you show up in a healthy way for someone that's going through something that's just awful?

Showing Up For Someone In Pain

Leslie Newman 42:15

First off, I'm gonna say there isn't one answer because there's so many different kinds of people. I can tell you how I do it and that has shifted. I used to be like, more engaged, more asking specific questions, and now I spend more time in presence and being with them in a loving space where I feel like I don't have to have all the answers. I'm just here to be a space of support and love and kindness. Because I think holding that space makes it easier for people to talk into that space. If I was holding, like, "I have to figure this out, I have to say the right thing, but coming from the place of I am here in service to your best- with love in my heart. I think it's so much easier to speak into a space like that and really make movement in your life, so I'm just talking about being with a friend. Yeah

Jodi 43:16

You just reminded me of when I lost my mom, and so many people had so many things to say and so many words of encouragement. But to this day, and it's been almost 14 years, the thing that stands by me the most was at the funeral home, I had one of my mom's favorite cousins on one side and my aunt on the other side of me, and they each had a hand, and we just sat like that. No one said a word. They just sat

Leslie Newman 43:43

Yeah.

Jodi 43:44

and that was so much more supportive. I couldn't tell you who else was there or who else said what. I, I don't remember anything, I remember that.

Leslie Newman 43:54

Yeah

Jodi 43:55

And that's where the comfort just poured over me.

Leslie Newman 44:00

Yes. Yeah, I like

Right On Time And Next Step

Leslie Newman 44:01

that.

Sherry 44:01

So for someone who's listening right now who is in a hard season, you know, they're just trying to get through week or the day or the next five minutes. What is one thing we want them to walk away knowing? And I know it's different for everyone,

Leslie Newman 44:19

Yeah. I would say first of all, you're right on time, and you're in the right space. You're exactly where you're supposed to be right in this moment. There's nothing wrong. And to trust that, to know wherever you are, you are right on time and exactly in the right space that you need to be in right now And if you can't trust it, you can pretend. You can say, I'm gonna trust it. I'm going to trust it. I'm gonna do my best to trust it just where I am right now." If you can accept that where you are right now is the exact right spot, then all you need to do is take one next step, one small something, whatever that looks like. And as I said as we started, it feels like full circle, to ask, what is it that I need to do? Whatever you're asking, whomever you connect to in your own life, in your own spirituality, to call that part of your being in. That's beyond psychology, but psychology is included in that, and so to ask the question, what's my next right step? And then be bold. Be bold. Take it

Sherry 45:40

it all connects to having a mindset like that just holding on to hope, and being able to figure out just one next thing

Leslie Newman 45:50

The one next thing

Sherry 45:53

there. I think your first book, the, the one that I have, The Daily Dose of Happiness, I think inspires that hopeful perspective, and I think it's a nice book to just have handy

Books Resources And Where To Start

Sherry 46:05

for when you feel those moments where the wind's out of your sails for whatever reason, There's some very helpful and uplifting insights in it.

Leslie Newman 46:13

Thank you

Sherry 46:14

it as like a daily reader, and good for someone who's maybe never picked up a self-improvement book, feel like that it's a good place to start. Um,

Leslie Newman 46:23

Thank you.

Sherry 46:24

What makes it different? What makes it accessible to someone who maybe doesn't have a library of self-help books sitting around.

Leslie Newman 46:30

You're talking about the book? Yeah. Well, I've always been so practical. I need to have things to do to bring it down into this earth to make it real. Uh, when I used to teach college, I'd had a section that just says, "Make it real." Whatever I was teaching, make it real, and this book does that. So you have opportunities to make it real, to do something creative. There's a space to journal, make little notes, or draw. And the teachings are small, as you said. They're digestible. They're bite-sized nuggets. So it's fast, and it's easy, and you can refer to it again and again because you'll always get a different nugget.

Sherry 47:08

And you have an audio version too,

Leslie Newman 47:10

I do.

Sherry 47:11

that because Jodi and I are real big into habit stacking, the James Clear, stuff. And, Jodi actually listened... 'Cause I like to listen to podcasts and books when I walk. Like, that's, those are the two I kinda try to do together. But Jodi listened to this one on an audiobook, and she really enjoyed it that way, and I think that's a great entry,

Leslie Newman 47:29

you

Sherry 47:30

To people who maybe don't wanna pick up a book, but getting the audio version

Leslie Newman 47:34

Yep

Sherry 47:35

Doing it that way.

Jodi 47:37

I told you guys both, it's now gonna be a tool in my toolbox, and I do

Leslie Newman 47:42

thank you.

Jodi 47:43

full of all sorts of self-help and

Leslie Newman 47:45

Thank you.

Jodi 47:46

And everything else. But I love the practical way it's broken down, and it is so simple that I don't have to sit down and, spend an hour. It's nice to have that break, and it's nice to have something small to just refer back to when I need it.

Leslie Newman 48:02

Thank you. Thank you so much for saying that. I, I love this little book. Thank you

Sherry 48:09

So where can people find, this book and the new book? You, you have a new book coming out that drops this summer.

Leslie Newman 48:15

Actually, I had a publisher for this book, but I have an editor who said, uh, "You need literary representation now." So for this book, that's my next step. So it may not be this summer. It might be a little bit longer trajectory because this just happened. So that's a new horizon for me to do that work.

Jodi 48:37

Well,

Leslie Newman 48:38

I'm gonna...

Jodi 48:38

That's

Leslie Newman 48:39

I know, I...

Jodi 48:39

exciting

Leslie Newman 48:40

thank you. Yeah, thanks. I'm like, the perfect literary agent is out there for me. I'm setting that, my intention for that. And,

Sherry 48:48

There you go

Leslie Newman 48:49

at, drlesliebnewman.com, y- my first book is available. I've, gosh, I put out a blog, I put socials out. I, it's a lot of the same thing, a lot of the same thing. I'm talking about things from my life and reflecting on that, and then a lesson, and then things for people to do. So drlesliebnewman.com and my Facebook page. Lots there.

Sherry 49:08

We'll link everything that we talked about today in the show notes too. I feel like this is the conversation that is exactly what we meant for this season. We wanted to go deeper for season two, so we really thank you for being here.

Jodi 49:21

Yeah, it's been a

Leslie Newman 49:21

I'm so grateful and I'm so happy for the work that you're doing in this world. I'm just thrilled your listeners are so, um, fortunate to find you

Sherry 49:35

Thank you. Sometimes I feel like it sounds like a public breakdown, but I know the purpose and the reason why behind all of it,

Leslie Newman 49:42

It's all right

Sherry 49:43

this point I say "I'm done kicking stuff under the rug." I've been on the healing journey, and

Leslie Newman 49:48

Yeah

Sherry 49:48

there will still be ups and downs, and twists and turns, and all around in the future. But, I feel like that's what I'm supposed to do right now,

Leslie Newman 49:56

Yeah.

Sherry 49:57

All right. Dr. Newman gave us so much to think about today. The spiral

Subscribe Share And Support Options

Sherry 50:00

path, the self-trust over self-improvement, I think is huge. The idea that you're not a project to be completed. Jodi and I are going to be, bringing this back in our next episode where we will dig in a little more about a growth mindset and what it looks like in real life, and you don't wanna miss that. And if you're new here, welcome. We're so glad that Dr. Leslie brought you to us. Here's what to do right now. Hit follow or subscribe wherever you're listening, and turn on your notifications so our next episode lands right in your feed the moment it drops. It makes sure that we don't lose each other. And if this episode found you at the right moment, pass it on. That's how we grow. This is it. If you or someone you love is struggling, please reach out to someone trained to help. And if you're in crisis, you can call or text 988 The Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. It is available 24-7.