Rural Schools Unite America with Dr. Jon Turner
Exploring issues that impact rural schools with Dr. Jon Turner from Missouri State University.
Rural Schools Unite America with Dr. Jon Turner
Classroom Discipline with Joanna Haskins
Jon Turner from Missouri State University visits with Joanna Haskins a former rural classroom teacher who currently works at the Agency for Teaching, Leading, and Learning at Missouri State University. Joanna works as a leader for Missouri's Beginning Teacher Assistance Program (BTAP) that is required as part of Missouri's teachers certification process for beginning teachers. This discussion focuses on connecting with students in the classroom and classroom management strategies. For more information, Mrs. Haskins can be contacted at JoannaHaskins@MissouriState.edu
The website for the Agency for Teaching, Leading, and Learning is https://education.missouristate.edu/ATLL/services-programs.htm
At several points in the discussion, Mrs. Haskins talks about a Classroom Management info-graphic that can be found here. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PTN942KJvESWaxmb29UvzzZJkoyL4IiF/view?usp=sharing
Links from the info-graphic https://www.cfchildren.org/blog/2012/08/key-factors-in-creating-a-positive-classroom-climate/
https://www.edutopia.org/article/using-community-agreements-start-year-strong/
https://www.edutopia.org/article/establish-classroom-routines-productive-learning/
https://www.responsiveclassroom.org/teaching-without-rewards/
https://www.responsiveclassroom.org/responding-to-misbehavior/
https://www.modelteaching.com/education-articles/classroom-management/the-abcs-of-behavior
Dr. Jon Turner is an Associate Professor of Special Education, Leadership, and Professional Studies at Missouri State University can be contacted at JonSTurner@MissouriState.edu
Joanna Haskins: . [00:00:00] When I started teaching like I said, I was in the library. I had kindergarten through sixth grade classes. And then after that, I went into the special education classroom. And as I started working with kids, as I started working with other teachers I just found that there were some things that worked across the board.
Most of my teaching career was in middle school and high school. And so when I started teaching and facilitating for teachers, I had a [00:00:30] lot of elementary teachers, and so my experiences didn't seem to quite match what I thought they were experiencing. But the more that I've done this, the more that I talk to teachers, the more that I'm in with new teachers and veteran teachers, there are just some classroom management strategies that work across the board.
And so the first thing I want to talk about is prevention. I don't feel like I can stress enough. You want to create a learning environment where [00:01:00] everyone feels safe to share their ideas, make mistakes and learn from each other.
This is most easily created by structure and engagement. So the first thing when we look at prevention for me is creating relationships. Dr. Turner, you were talking earlier about knowing George and knowing that if I gave him an academic task or an academic speech topic, that he was and so your relationship with him [00:01:30] informed you on how to engage him in the lessons that you had for him.
Engage him in the learning that you needed to see from him. You're going to hear it all throughout your college career. And when you get into the school some schools say your why, what is the, why have you gotten into teaching? Most of us don't get into teaching for the money.
Most of us don't get into teaching to Help with behaviors. Most of us get into teaching because we want to support [00:02:00] kids. Maybe there was a teacher that made you feel seen and heard and you want to be that for someone else. With prevention. Again, relationship is key, even with your middle school and high school kids that may not look like, those fun TikTok videos where, they're giving high fives or a hug or a little dance as they walk in the room.
But one of the number one things that you can do is learn your kids [00:02:30] names. That was a. Goal of mine was to have all of my kids names memorized in the first week. I did that by using seating charts and by having individual conversations with them, everything I did in the first two weeks was just to get to know my kids, find out what makes them tick, find out what they're dealing with at home.
Again, they're not going to trust you right away. Especially with high schoolers, a lot of it is just using humor. I'm not a funny person, but, They can think I'm funny just because I can [00:03:00] make a mistake and. Be okay with it. So prevention relationships. Also, I'm going to go over engagement strategies.
There's a little link on the infographic and in the link that Dr Turner is going to share with you about some engagement strategies. A lot of times we don't think of engagement as. prevention. But if we have a kid thinking, if they're the ones doing the thinking, then they're the ones doing the learning.
And you can't help but learn when you're engaged. [00:03:30] Think of a toddler, if you will crawling around on the floor. or finding something and they have it in their mouth or in their hand and trying to get away from them. They will not let it go. It is very difficult to get a toddler or a small child to let go of something that they have found because they want to know about it.
They want to know how it smells, how it tastes, how it feels. And so Because they are engaged in whatever they have in their hand, they are going to learn [00:04:00] about it. You just can't help it. And so one of the things, especially as new teachers that I have found is helping you understand and learn how to get the teaching Or the learning to become the students.
So I can teach them all day long, but if they're not learning, then I'm not doing my job. So preventing really is allowing or creating that space where they can feel safe to make mistakes where it is encouraged to make [00:04:30] mistakes where. They feel like they can share their ideas and they're going to be listened to and accepted and then where they can learn from each other.
And again, that really is the focus of good engagement strategies. The 1st thing that we go over when I am talking to my new teachers is how to establish expectations. Again, I did not go through the. undergrad portion of teaching. So I have no [00:05:00] idea what the classes are that you're supposed to take.
But in the SPED classes there was a big portion of our class on establishing expectations and what that looks like. The longer I've been a teacher, the more I realize that really I can have all the expectations I want, but unless my kids agree. that those expectations are fair, then they're not going to work.
And so instead of expectations, I have learned to call them classroom agreements. Now, [00:05:30] I will say that my classroom expectations have not changed. Over the course of my 15, 17 years of teaching, they pretty much stayed the same. Whether I am in, The middle school classroom, the high school classroom or talking to my teachers in the programs that I have and talking to my elementary teachers.
I try to make them short. actionable and positive. I learned a long time ago, less is more. And so I want to establish [00:06:00] agreements in our class that the students feel like are fair. What I love about doing this is I can have them work together and come up with classroom rules that they feel like work for them.
Working together, being respectful of each other when we're talking, I can write these things on the board and I can Put them in the words that I want to use. And I already have the posters made up because I already knew what I wanted them to get to.
Again, those classroom agreements are important because then it becomes when I am dealing with behaviors, [00:06:30] it becomes not about me versus the student. It becomes about how are you as the student beating these classroom agreements that we have created together. And so it doesn't become a personal attack.
On me because they're not breaking my classroom rules. These are the agreements that we came together as a class to form. And then also they can take some of that responsibility for how are you as a student not meeting the agreement that we [00:07:00] had at the beginning of the class.
So I did put another so anything that is on the infographic that is underlined is a link to either a resource or an article that kind of. Delves into this a little bit more. I feel like all of us as teachers. Like Dr. Turner was saying earlier, there are things that we struggle with and there are things that we are naturally good at.
And so [00:07:30] I do not want to assume that everyone is good at relationships. That is one of the things I love getting to know my students. I love getting to know the students that are really hard to get to know. Perfect example. I had a kid when I was in Arizona. His dad was Legitimately in the Mexican Mafia he did not feel like school was important.
He already knew what he was going to do when he got out of school. He planned on quitting early. And so he had no reason to want to be there except that his [00:08:00] mom required him to go. And so he was one of my favorite students to figure out. He didn't want to do anything. His goal every day was to get kicked out of class.
And so my goal then became how long can I keep you in class? Because he would either leave on his own or a teacher would kick him out. And so my goal became how do I form a relationship with this kid to keep him in class? This really came down to the relationship and then giving out. Even simplifying the classroom [00:08:30] agreements that we had come to.
But a lot of it came from our procedures and routines. So a procedure becomes a routine. And I cannot stress to you enough the importance of having a procedure for everything. In the BTAP class, the beginning teacher class that I facilitate we go through, I give you an exhaustive list. It's three pages.
You need to think about to have a procedure for everything. We think [00:09:00] about the things like entering and leaving the classroom. Maybe you're going to teach high school. I'm like my kids already know how to enter a classroom. They do not. I had, I taught junior English. This was AP level. I had kids come in and they were vaulting over desks.
We had to go back out of the classroom and remember how to come into my classroom how to find the seat and get started. Sometimes you think that it's common sense for certain things to be done, [00:09:30] like that you don't sharpen your pencil in the middle of class. That is an assumption that you cannot make.
I guarantee you there will be kids who halfway in class say, oh, can I borrow a pencil or oh, my pencil broke. And I need to sharpen it and they haven't been taking notes or doing the work that you thought that they were doing. So having procedures set up in your class is super important.
The ones that are non negotiable, you then become, they become routine. When I have something that, we will speak [00:10:00] kindly to one another, there is a procedure for our group work. There is a procedure in talking in class because I will not put up with Students being made fun of.
I want to hear what each kid has. I love hearing from those students that are on the spectrum who think about things in a little bit different way and having them speak up and share their opinion. It's so fun to watch the rest of the class go. I had never thought about it that way and starting to make connections.
That's where they feel safe and they can learn from each other. So [00:10:30] those procedures and routines are important. To introduce early and to practice practice, even with your high schoolers. I practice every time we have a long weekend.
We go over, we remember our classroom agreements. We explicitly talk about what those are. And so we go over those classroom expectations and those procedures for entering the room, leaving the room, talking independent work time, all of those things.[00:11:00]
And so we practice practice.
Jon Turner: Joanna, one of the things that you talked about there that I think is again, most of my career was with high school kids. There were times when I was principal that I was over elementary through high school, but by as a teaching career and you talked about that practice piece.
And one of the things that I think that's a principal I saw that I never saw as a teacher is that kids understand the expectation of the teacher and it takes practice. But what [00:11:30] used to really be fascinating to me as a principal, I'm coming into all the classrooms, I'm getting to visit them all.
And just seeing how students behave differently. The same student behaves differently in one class as compared to another. And again, that was all an example of the reflection of the expectation of the teacher and how they respond. And that might be something as simple, Joanna as There were teachers that say, before you comment, raise your hand, and I'll call on you.
And I'd see [00:12:00] A student, let's say John Turner in this classroom, and when the teacher said, when it's time to speak, you raise your hand, and John would do that, and then a couple hours later, I would see John Turner in a classroom where the teacher had more of a free wheeling and dialogue process and see that same student realize that you don't have to raise your hand in this class, but still be able to engage in the classroom.
And I love the points that you pointed about is that we think, especially by the time they get to middle school or high school, they know how to behave in school. [00:12:30] But What we forget sometimes, they don't know what your expectation is as a teacher and how it's different for you.
Yeah, they probably know in their heart what is a way to be respectful and kind and treat others in an appropriate manner. But again, the expectation of the teacher is very different. And I loved that you emphasize that, Joanna, because it's something that as a principal, I got to see all the time, but I think sometimes the teachers didn't see.
And again knowing that. That it's worth the practice, I guess is what I'm saying, is that, like you said, you think [00:13:00] that they should know how to do this, but what we're trying to practice on is what your expectation as a teacher is, and this is the way that I want you to behave. And another thing that you'd said earlier that I really appreciate, and I've seen this a lot in classrooms recently, I still do a lot of student teacher visits, is that when those expectations can be on a I was in a classroom at Westport Elementary here in Springfield the other day,
and there was something going on in the class, and I saw the teacher as they were talking, and they simply went over and tapped the wall, and there's the expectations there. And that was all they had to do, [00:13:30] it was expectation number three. He didn't even say expectation number three. He didn't go through and readdress what expectation number three was.
He just went over and pointed at three. The kid knew what was going at. And we moved on. So many times I see when people are trying to modify behavior, the model, the process of modifying the behavior can take many more minutes than the two second behavior that caused us to get off track.
And I was really impressed by this teacher just going over, tapping on the wall on the expectation that had been [00:14:00] violated. The kid got the message and we moved on.
Joanna Haskins: No, I love that. I tell my new teachers, really, you should have no more than five to seven. I try to keep it at three to five.
Five is my magic number. Five is easy to remember. Five is one hand that doesn't seem overwhelming to a kid at whatever age. And so keeping them short, Okay. And positive. And again, we're going to talk a little bit later about rewarding behavior. You want to see [00:14:30] all of the classroom agreements should be stated in a positive way.
So it's not what I am not going to do. It is what I want them to do. Again, these, I encourage you for these classroom agreements to be your non negotiables. What is it that you like, whether I'm in a good mood, a bad mood, I got sleep. I didn't get sleep. I had my coffee. I didn't get my coffee, whatever it is.
Whatever causes your day to go up or down, what are the non negotiables for your classroom? I love [00:15:00] in my BTAP classes at the very beginning of the year, they wrote down what their ideal classroom would look like. And we have revisited those after the winter break. And so many of them have changed what their ideal classroom would look like.
And That helps to navigate those classroom agreements when I can say, these are my non negotiables sometimes it's practice. I didn't have a lot of these set in stone until about my 5th to 7th year of teaching. I [00:15:30] changed some here or there. Sometimes we'd have to add 1 or 2, but again, most of my.
Classroom agreements could stay the same. It was my procedures and routines that I had to amp up in order to make sure that those classroom agreements could be followed easily. I love how you said that every teacher is different. What may be a non negotiable for me is a negotiable for you.
I love, even though I'm a type a person I love that moment when. I have [00:16:00] given short instructions and I say, okay, do it. And there's that murmur of kids in the classroom. Or when I first was in the classroom, we did junior research papers. And, we go to the typing lab. There was a computer lab because we didn't have one to one then.
I'd say, okay, here's where you are. This is what you're doing today. Go. And you hear the click click. I love that. I love that sound. And as a teacher, you find that's what you want to get to. You want to hear the sound of learning. And in order to do that, We [00:16:30] have to have those relationships.
We have those expectations. Where I can just go over, we've practiced enough where I can go and tap the poster. We're able just to keep going right on with learning.
Jon Turner: I saw just this week Joanna was I was in a high school, The students as they came in the door, I don't know how to describe it, , but it was similar to those pouches that we used to have back when all the kids had to have their own calculators in a math class, and it was just a pocket there, and as students were coming in the door I just happened to notice that [00:17:00] all the students took their cell phones out and would drop them in their appropriate one, two, three, four, whatever.
There's 25 on the back of this door there. And as the students came in the classroom, they were dropping their cell phones in those baskets. And they went into class and I was just there observing . And then after we got through with the class and the kids were leaving they all grabbed their cell phone out of the pouch off the back of the door and they leave the class. There was no cell phone dynamic. And let's just say as a person that visits a lot of classes right now, cell phones seem to be an issue. In about [00:17:30] three fourths of the classes I walk in, some kind of cell phone issue.
And so I asked the student teacher, I said, now, is that the school policy? And she said that's not the student policy, but she says, that's my cooperating teacher policy. The students knew, it wasn't the school board having to take a vote on that.
It was this teacher saying. You know that the cell phone issue is a non negotiable in my classroom. When you come in, you drop it in the pouch. And then when you leave, you can get your cell phone out of the pouch. And there was just no drama. This was a student teacher that was working at the elbow [00:18:00] of a veteran teacher.
But I, again, it was just another one of those expectations things. Now I didn't go to a class. down the hallway, but I'm just saying, I'm in a lot of high school classrooms now, and cell phones are always an issue, and it was really a great example of the expectations of that teacher really changed the dynamics of the classroom, and it was something as simple as saying, when you come in, put your cell phone in the pouch, and when you leave, you can go, and by the way, there was even one point that the student asked, can I go get my cell phone, and the student teacher said, yes, they could.
And they [00:18:30] went and did something on it, but they put it right back in the pouch and came back. The teacher's expectation really played a great role in what was going on in the class, if
Joanna Haskins: yeah.
Funny. You should mention cell phones. I actually did not have a cell phone policy in my room except for during testing. I started learning that if I could engage my kids in learning, they didn't need to have their cell phones out. They weren't bored. And so if I could keep them busy, I didn't have to worry about the cell phones except during tests.
So what happens [00:19:00] then? When I do have behaviors because I can prevent, I can have procedures and routines. I can have my classroom agreements, but I'm still going to have disruptions. I'm still going to have behaviors that happen. One of the things that I learned was that when I have a relationship with the kid, it helps me deal with the behavior that comes up.
So first of all, what I have had to train myself to do this. This did not come. Easily for me was to [00:19:30] reward the behavior I want to see, especially in the special education classroom. Or when I was in the gen ed classroom a lot of times we will have a wide range of kids in our class.
Some of them didn't get enough sleep last night. Some of them had to babysit their younger brothers and sisters. That was coming from a 13 year old having to take care of his four brothers and sisters. I've had kids whose dad got arrested the night before. And he came to school that day and he was tired.
There's just [00:20:00] so many different things. The kid that I was talking about earlier who's, he did not have a need for school. He didn't feel like, so I had to reward the behavior that I wanted to see sometimes. Down there it says prepare for and choose your battles. Sometimes I had to let some things go in order to keep the relationship with the kid.
Now that does not mean that I was a doormat and that I allowed kids to rule my classroom. That is not what I'm saying at all. But there were times when I had [00:20:30] to pick and choose where I was going to let go and what I was going to address. Again, going back to those non negotiables. So let's talk about my kid.
And I'm sorry if you had me for BTAP after you graduate, cause you're probably going to hear these stories again, but I had a kid who just, he had a hard time reading. So anytime we were doing something with reading, he would find a way to amuse himself. Mostly that happened when he first walked [00:21:00] into the classroom.
If he could, he felt like if he could get kicked out of class early on, he wouldn't have to do any of the work. It doesn't make sense to us, but that's sometimes how kids. So I remember one time I was working with a group of students and he was doing this, with his pencil and looking at him and knowing the kid, I knew that he was about to throw his pencil across the room.
That is a non negotiable for me because that is dangerous, right? And he was, he had not let it go [00:21:30] yet. He was watching me and shaking his pencil. And so before he could throw it I called him by the name, I'm going to use John again. And I was like, John, are you kidding me? Are you trying to get work done in my class?
Look at you holding your pencil. And he looked at me. And I looked at him and he looked at me and I could tell him thinking, does she really think I was holding my pencil to get to work? Or does she know that I was about ready to throw my pencil [00:22:00] either way? I don't care because he did not throw his pencil.
And so I was able to catch him in the behavior that I wanted to see him holding the pencil before he let the pencil fly. And then I had to get onto him for that. So sometimes with our kids, with our students, whether they're in kindergarten, eighth grade or juniors in high school we have to catch them in the behavior.
Literally, you can just say their name and [00:22:30] congratulate them on being a learner and having learning behavior. So again, I go back to my classroom agreements. John, I am so impressed. I can tell that you are ready to learn today. You came in and sat down. All you have to do is get out your piece of paper and you are ready to learn.
And so I am rewarding that behavior that I want to see. There are days where I know that I'm a little grumpy. There are times of the day, john, you were saying earlier that it was your second [00:23:00] hour. Mine was fourth hour right after lunch. It's all kids lose their brains.
And so I had to prepare myself for that fourth hour knowing that I was going to see certain behaviors and what was I going to choose to address and what was I going to allow to let go. My general rule of thumb is if they are a danger to themselves or to others, that's a non negotiable.
That is a behavior I must address. But even into, are they disrupting the learning [00:23:30] of others and themselves? If I have those relationships, if I have established my agreements, if I have my procedures and routines, I love how you said, sometimes I can just go over, tap the poster and be done with it.
There are other times that I'm going to have a kid come out in the hall with me and have a conversation. There may be times I can just get down low and have a quick conversation. Hey, do you need to go get a drink of water before we continue? It seems like you're having a rough day.
How can I [00:24:00] support you? There have been times where I said, you know what? You talk to me before class or I've had kids email me and today when we do our independent work, why don't you just sit in the back, put your head down and we will get you caught up later. There are just times when I have to choose and prepare for what I'm willing to handle that day.
My other preparation comes from knowing how I am going to respond instead of react if I have [00:24:30] three to four generic and general ways that I'm going to respond to behavior, then I don't have to think about it. So if I have a kid out of a seat during independent work time, go back to your seat.
Pick up where you left off. That gives them exactly what I want them to do and my expectation. Go back to your seat. Pick up where you left off. Enough blurting out. Raise your hand. If I have [00:25:00] these easy go to calls to action, if you will, that are easy for me to remember and easy for me to get them back on task.
That's what I'm going to use again. My tone of voice is serious but I can still be kind. Sometimes when I am not prepared for those things, I react and my reactions can be very harsh, which escalates the behavior. I'm the adult I need to be able to de escalate what's happening in my classroom.
[00:25:30] And so I want to respond instead of react. Again, this is so much easier if you can plan in advance. Here's how I'm going to handle these. There are some great teacher videos YouTubers Different trainers that you can go to that have some calls to action ways to easily respond to small disruptions in class that I like to utilize.
And then you will find that you have some students who just have patterns of [00:26:00] behavior. They are constant disruptions. You know that they're going to happen every day or every other day. And it seems like no matter what you do, these kids are going to cause a disruption in class. When you get to that spot, it's important to understand the why of the behavior.
What is happening? Why are they doing it? Is there a routine to this behavior? You will not have to do this with every behavior. You will not need to do this with every kid. [00:26:30] But there are going to be some kids or certain times of day that you've just had it. And when you get to that point, you need to be able to go back and say, okay, what do I do now?
This is one of those things they teach you in your special education classes if you go through those. But since they don't, I'm going to give you just a little hint into it. ABCs. So we're going to look for the antecedent. What is happening right before this [00:27:00] behavior occurs? I assigned independent work.
We talked about what we were having for lunch that day. It can be a number of things, but you need to start identifying what happens directly before the behavior that you see. You identify the specific behavior. A lot of times behaviors come in chunks. So not only are they out of their seat, they're also yelling out.
Not only are they leaving the classroom, but they make they throw their things across the [00:27:30] room before they bolt. So you're identifying the behavior that's there that you're wanting to change. And then you're wanting to identify the consequence. What happens with that kid? And consequence is not the discipline.
Consequence is literally what is the result of that behavior. When that behavior happens, what happens to the kid? Do they get out of the work? Are they sent to the principal's office? Do they get to avoid the task? Do they get attention that [00:28:00] they're seeking?
Are they needing some extra attention? I had a kid who, again, read at a first grade level. If we were going to do any kind of work, he would rather be the bad kid than the dumb kid. And so he would cause some kind of disruption every single time. If he came in and he thought we were gonna do any kind of reading or writing, He would immediately begin disrupting.
One of the things that we figured out was that his previous schools, he was just sent out of the room. He was sent to the [00:28:30] focus room or the ISS room to do his work where he could just sit there and do nothing. He would scribble on a piece of paper. He didn't have to do anything. So when he figured out that he was going to have to stay in my classroom we had to give him a reason to want to stay.
Thankfully, I had a little girl in there that had Down syndrome. She was fantastic at reading, but she could not comprehend. So one of the things we did is to pair them up. So the antecedent to his behavior changed when we're doing reading, I really need [00:29:00] you to help her because she can't understand what we're reading.
So if you will let her read to you, that would really help me and then you can help her understand what's happening. He did not realize that in doing that, she was actually reading to him and filling in a hole that he did not have, but it changed the way he perceived. The assignment that we were going to be working on and so his behavior then changed once we got into a routine of that, then he was able [00:29:30] to work through some of his insecurities in reading and actually start helping her and sounding out some of the words.
So it actually turned out to be a beautiful relationship that worked really well. So again, antecedent, what is happening directly before the behavior? Okay. What is the actual behavior that I'm wanting to change? And then why is that behavior happening? What is the consequence? Are they avoiding? Are they attention seeking?
There's a list of things that you can go down. And then once we have identified what the [00:30:00] behavior is or why they're looking for that, or why, what the behavior is bringing to them, then we identify new ways of getting the Behavior I want to see. And we teach that. If I have a kid who's needing some extra attention, then I'm going to give them that attention going back up to rewarding the behavior I want to see, I'm going to have them do a problem.
And then I'm going to come over and I'm going to celebrate that he has done this problem [00:30:30] all by himself. And then I'm going to walk away and let him get another one done. There again, so many resources. Videos, articles, all the things about rewarding the behavior, how to reward without giving stickers, without doing clip charts, without doing Candy.
How can we reward that behavior? And then how can we identify what we want them to do and actually teach that to our [00:31:00] kids?
Jon Turner: I appreciate it so much, Joanna and when we talk about things like this, it can be overwhelming, like you said, and you've talked about, there's so many resources out there as far as YouTube videos and some great websites. And again, colleagues that you can ask questions about and things like that. And I guess that is one of the takeaways, just listening to this again, is that part of it is the journey, you and I both are veteran teachers.
[00:31:30] Now, there are things that we did our first and second year that we know now. to do but it was part of the journey. I don't care. Any professor could have told us not to do it. We'd probably still done some of the silly things that we did and again I just always try to encourage.
People early in their career to remember that conversations and dialogue with other professionals are important because again, if we can learn at the elbows of veteran teachers, but we can also, we can learn at the elbows of young teachers [00:32:00] to, some of the, I remember years ago when I was principal at Kabul at one point we had teachers that had not observed other teachers teach for decades. And at that time, this was a bit in the mid nineties, we were integrating a lot of things as far as new technology.
Some of the veteran teachers were really at a disadvantage because the younger teachers were of that technology generation, but the older generation teachers like me, we learned how to use chalkboards, and so that particular challenge that we faced at [00:32:30] that time allowed us to go through and I guess say get veteran teachers to go into younger teachers classrooms to observe how to use technology, for example.
But as part of that conversation, the veteran teachers were also able to share areas of expertise that they had that the rookie teachers that may have been great with technology had no idea about things as far as like discipline. And again, it was just one of those things that I. That I always tried to encourage was that collegial dialogue, [00:33:00] learning from each other.
You don't have to reinvent the wheel yourself. And I think that's one of my big concerns now, as I mentioned earlier, is that, that we don't have opportunities just to have casual conversations and to bat off ideas and strategies. I, like I said, I, here I'm in my 38th year teaching and I still go out in student teachers classrooms and I do not leave a student teacher's classroom and I don't learn something,
I was in a classroom the other day and they were using a piece of software. And it's what is that software? And again just going into it with that growth mindset, that idea [00:33:30] of each kid is going to be different. And it's an opportunity to go through and try to figure it out.
And it can be either. but it can also be extremely interesting and engaging trying to figure out what's going to work for that one kid I love the example that you talk about, I wrote it down, they would rather be the bad kids than the dumb kid.
And boy, that's a great takeaway there because putting yourself in the perspective of the student is if that student in their mind cares about what their peers think, More than what they think about the teacher [00:34:00] things, then that really changes their behavior because that misbehavior can entertain the class and they're more focused on entertaining the class than they are about disappointing you as a person, , I used to always say when we were working with kindergarten and first grade teachers that they were at a great advantage because every kindergartner and first grader wants to make an adult happy.
It doesn't matter who it is. It could be the custodian, it could be the teacher, it could be the lunch lady, they're just focused on that. But when they make that transition to where the peers all of a sudden entertaining them becomes more powerful [00:34:30] than making the adults happy in their life, and it makes it really much more challenging to deal with these things.
And I just appreciate so many great takeaways that you have there. But again, hoping to, for our next generation of teachers saying it is a journey. It's something that you learn and you develop. Don't let it get overwhelming. If things get overwhelming, that is a time to engage with people. And again, I understand that it takes a lot of bravery to go through and say, Hey, I need help.
But it's easy, for example, Joanna, to go on your website and see if I can find a resource. It'd take a lot of courage as a rookie teacher to call you. [00:35:00] So maybe that's the next step we need to talk about. They may be seeing this in class now. They're not in a classroom teaching, but a couple years from now they may need to do you.
I know you guys do trainings and things like that, but What advice would you have here? I'm a rookie teacher, a second year teacher. I'm having discipline issues. What advice would you give?
Joanna Haskins: So one of the things that I have learned is or that I hear a lot is I just don't have [00:35:30] time. I don't have time to get them.
I have copies and I have curriculum and I have testing and I have all the things and what I like to encourage them by saying you don't have time not to. So 1 of the things that I encourage my veteran teachers and my new teachers is to get out and observe other teachers at least once every 2 weeks.
And I'm not saying for the entire class, 10 minutes. Pick a time. Hey, you know what? I'm really struggling with having the kids enter my [00:36:00] classroom. I teach second grade. I'm going to go up to the sixth grade classroom and I'm going to watch how they enter. Let's see if I can get some ideas. On the flip side of that, I'm going to ask if they can come in to my classroom, right?
Plan it in advance. I love doing these 10 minute pop ins. When I thought about Going to observe a fellow teacher. I felt like I needed to be in there for the whole time, but that's not true. I can go in and take something away. It's the same thing with professional development.
Once you get out of your classes and you still have to take all this professional [00:36:30] development, teachers are notorious. for being frustrated. It's Oh, I don't need the professional, though. I just need time in my class. But what I tell my teachers is find one thing, one thing that you can take away, one thing that you can implement in your classroom that you can tweak to make work for you.
There's stuff that we can learn from other grades. And that's what I would say is don't be afraid when you get the keys to your classroom. In your mind, you feel like, okay, I'm a teacher [00:37:00] now. I'm supposed to have it all together. No one else thinks that I guarantee you, your principal does not think that they want you to ask questions.
They want you to come and they want you to clarify. If you ask a question, they give you an answer and it doesn't make sense to you. They want you to ask them again. They want you to ask for help because they would rather you get the help and support you need than they would. Want to do interviews to find another teacher.
Jon Turner: That's [00:37:30] exactly right.
Joanna Haskins: Want to give you what you need. And so please not be afraid to ask that you were going to have a mentor teacher your first two years. Unfortunately, sometimes we have mentors that are really good and really supportive and they're in there all the time.
And unfortunately, sometimes we have mentors that were just the closest person or they've been there the longest. And so you don't get a lot of support, but there is someone near you that can provide that support, whether it's in your building, your [00:38:00] administration. Your mom's best friend that was a teacher.
I don't care. There are people out there who want you to be successful, and they do not expect you to know everything from the beginning.
Jon Turner: Yeah, I love all that. Again, Joanna, that, like you said, and to be candid with you, I was a principal for over 20 years, so I was around a long time. And every once in a while, I would get a younger teacher that would come in and say, who can I go watch?
But that was really rare. I hardly ever and I tried to encourage that, and as a principal I would try to build the [00:38:30] expectation of this is something I want us to do Like you said even if it's just 10 minutes going in and stepping in somebody else's classroom for 10 minutes and seeing The student that you had a couple of hours ago and see how they're different in a different classroom setting.
If nothing else, it's interesting. But again, like you said, it can give you ideas about how to connect. Learning too, you learn those things too, but again, I think it's part of that isolation that once we get the keys to our classroom, we build our moat and then we're going to sink or swim on our own and that's not [00:39:00] healthy.
And again, trying to engage with others, observing, getting out there and doing it as a principal, I'm hoping I'm building a climate that way, but I also understand just the personal reluctance of some people to just come in, but let me just say this as a person that's probably the oldest.
I never had a teacher come in and say, I want to come observe your class. And I was offended, it is a great compliment. I think it's just a great compliment. I think we sometimes, yeah, sometimes we perceive that as well. No, you're making that up in your own mind as your reluctance to [00:39:30] ask for help.
Trust me, nothing makes a veteran teacher glow more than to have someone come in and say can I Watch you Do this
like you, Joanna, you're not making a nickel more for doing this for me. But, I ask and you say, I'm glad to help. Go out and ask for help and observe and engage.
Joanna Haskins: And I would even say that now.
I, there was a veteran teacher that I taught with as students in the class right now. And I'm talking directly to your students when you get into the [00:40:00] classroom, you're going to hear things. You're going to hear that everyone loves this teacher because you don't have to do anything in his class.
And so I wanted to know what does that look like though? Like they love going into his class. But normally when you find a teacher who really doesn't do anything, they don't love going into his class for very long because they get bored, but he had great relationships with his kids. So I didn't want to go in and observe him and say, Hey, can I come watch your class?
Because the kids say that you don't do anything. [00:40:30] And I'd like to know what that looks like. AI is great for being able to put together a little email. So really I focused on relationships that he has with kids, Hey, as a new teacher to the school, I'd really like to come in and observe.
He was great with it, but that also gave me, because he was the junior history teacher and I was the junior English teacher, gave me some ideas of what to cover in my class to use his curriculum to help supplement my curriculum to be able to teach them how to write.
So it ended up that, they were writing a paper for him that [00:41:00] he would never grade, but I could use in my class and grade and then I became the. Teacher that they love because I didn't make them write a second paper.
Jon Turner: Same paper twice.
Joanna Haskins: Yeah. So there's ways around things like I love how you said that you can make a veteran teacher feel really good just by finding something.
It's Hey, I've heard the kids talking about how you know, cool your classes with this. I would love to come in and just sit and just observe you for a few minutes, 10, 15 minutes. Is there a time I can come in? I have never had a teacher tell me no. That they didn't want [00:41:30] me in their classroom.
Jon Turner: Yeah, exactly. And by the way, as a principal, that was one of the things when I had a young teacher, a beginning first year teacher, what I'd always go through and say, have the students write to you just a note, as part of the introduction process at the beginning of the year, Write me a paragraph who your best teacher is, and yeah, that tells you a lot about a kid on who they think is their best teacher.
I'd say have every kid in your class, right? Who's your best teacher and why? Because through that lens, you're seeing what kind of teacher and I'd always go through and emphasize, I'm not talking your [00:42:00] favorite. I'm talking your best. Who's your best? And you'd learn a lot about the kids, but you'd also learn a lot about your colleagues too.
Judy Straight, which was a legendary English teacher at AVA. Why are the kids always putting down Judy as the best teacher? And again, like I said, going into Judy and saying, Judy, I have so many kids, so you're the best teacher.
Can I come watch for 10 minutes? Let me tell you what, she'll give you a high five, maybe a hug.
Joanna Haskins: Thank you so much for having me come on. I hope that it has been helpful for your students. Again, the links on the infographic [00:42:30] hopefully we'll give them some ideas of things that they can use,
welcome to reach out to me or anyone at the ATLL. We are thrilled when teachers reach out to us. We just want to support teachers.
Jon Turner: Appreciate you all. All you do. Joanna, again, we've never met in person, but I could tell that as many teachers are, you're a giver and a helper and I sure appreciate your help.
Joanna Haskins: My pleasure.
Jon Turner: Thank you.