Resilience, Trauma, and Breakthroughs with Dr. Dennis Charney

In this episode of The Vitals podcast, Leslie Schlachter, PA, Chief Physician Assistant in the Department of Neurosurgery, hosts a discussion regarding the role of resilience in both professional and personal struggles. She is joined by Dennis S. Charney, MD, the Anne and Joel Ehrenkranz Dean of the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai and President for Academic Affairs for the Mount Sinai Health System.  Dr. Charney explains how resilience helped guide him following an unsuccessful attempt on his life, and through the rigors of scientific discovery. 

Transcript

00:00:04:44 - 00:00:35:28

Leslie Schlachter

Hi. Welcome to the Vitals, Mount Sinai Health System's newest video podcast. I'm your host,

Leslie Schlatter, a neurosurgery physician assistant. Today, I'm grateful for the opportunity to

have an intimate one on one interview with Doctor Dennis Charney, dean of the Icahn School of

Medicine at Mount Sinai Health System. Dean Dennis Charney is a psychiatrist, researcher,

scientist, author, leader and has devoted his life to the neurobiology and treatment of mood and

anxiety disorders.

00:00:35:33 - 00:00:56:24

Leslie Schlachter

He's not only committed to researching and teaching resilience, but he's experienced it himself

in the most personal way. He went to medical school at Penn State, completed his residency at

Yale, and fellowship at the Connecticut Medical Health Center. Prior to coming to Mount Sinai,

he led the Mood and Anxiety Research program at the National Institute of Mental Health.

00:00:56:29 - 00:01:17:01

Leslie Schlachter

And he was on the faculty at the Department of Psychiatry at Yale. He was elected to the

National Institute of Medicine in 2000. And then Doctor Charney became the Dean of Research

at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in 2004, later becoming the Dean of Academic and Scientific

Affairs. Then in 2007, he became the Dean of the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.

00:01:17:06 - 00:01:26:43

Leslie Schlachter

He has five children, nine grandchildren, and is known for his love of sports and weightlifting. I'm

thrilled to have him here. Thank you so much for coming today.

00:01:26:49 - 00:01:27:54

Dr. Dennis Charney

Happy to be here. Yeah.

00:01:28:06 - 00:01:31:21

Leslie Schlachter

Do you remember the first time that we met?

00:01:31:26 - 00:01:33:06

Dr. Dennis Charney

I do, if we're thinking about the same thing.00:01:33:07 - 00:01:35:51

Leslie Schlachter

Okay. Do you mind? Do you want to tell a story how we met?

00:01:35:56 - 00:01:38:04

Dr. Dennis Charney

Well, we're at one of the the crystal party.

00:01:38:18 - 00:01:45:37

Leslie Schlachter

That actually wasn't the first time that we met. We met in the Annenberg lobby during the. Like a

basketball shooting contest.

00:01:45:39 - 00:01:46:14

Dr. Dennis Charney

Okay.

00:01:46:19 - 00:02:02:09

Leslie Schlachter

And, you came up to me and you asked me who I was, and I said, who are you? Okay. And we

kind of got to talking then. I think you like that I was tall and played basketball, and so I. I think

you first found me then, but then at the crystal party.

00:02:02:11 - 00:02:22:01

Dr. Dennis Charney

So at the crystal party, I said to you. Did you play basketball? And you said, I won't say the

exact language. You would kick my butt. Yeah. I went back to my table and said she said she

was going to kick my butt. Nobody's ever said that to me before.

00:02:22:06 - 00:02:25:17

Leslie Schlachter

I probably believed it back then. Right now, I know I definitely couldn't fight.

00:02:25:25 - 00:02:26:22

Dr. Dennis Charney

Because I played basketball.

00:02:26:22 - 00:02:39:09

Leslie Schlachter

Too. Yeah, I think we both share the love of basketball and weightlifting. Sports is important to

us. Since I was fitness right? And Bill Bradley's like one of your heroes. What's the word?

00:02:39:14 - 00:02:56:09Dr. Dennis Charney

Yes. Yeah. Back when Bill, Bradley played at Princeton, there was a book, a biography written

by him, by John McPhee called The Sense of Where You Are. I must have read that book ten

times or more.

00:02:56:13 - 00:02:57:54

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah, it's like the Bible you keep getting more out of.

00:02:57:54 - 00:03:00:34

Dr. Dennis Charney

It was an idol of mine. And then, of course, he became a knick.

00:03:00:45 - 00:03:15:42

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we kind of connected over the love of basketball and fitness and health

care, obviously. So, like, in your introduction, you're you're the dean of the medical school. What

is what does that mean to people who are like what? It was a dean.

00:03:15:46 - 00:03:46:09

Dr. Dennis Charney

The dean at Mount Sinai med school means that I'm responsible for the education of medical

students and graduate students, and particularly at Mount Sinai, to educate the best and the

brightest who want to be leaders in science and medicine. I also oversee, the research

component of our medical school. And they're my responsibility is to recruit the best scientists

who are committed to making discoveries that change the lives of our patients.

00:03:46:13 - 00:03:52:18

Dr. Dennis Charney

And then, of course, we have our faculty practice, which provides great care for the most

serious problems.

00:03:52:22 - 00:03:59:44

Leslie Schlachter

Being a dean of a medical school, that's something that you thought about when you were

practicing as a physician. Or is that something that kind of just evolves and fell into your lap?

00:03:59:49 - 00:04:18:39

Dr. Dennis Charney

It fell into my lap. But, you know, I've been, I'm a psychiatrist, neuroscientist and spent, the

beginning and up to the middle of my career of, doing science, you know, making discoveries

related to depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. Resilience.00:04:18:50 - 00:04:19:46

Leslie Schlachter

Right.

00:04:19:51 - 00:04:45:19

Dr. Dennis Charney

And then, I was leaving the National Institute of Mental Health and was looking for another

position, and I was offered a this is actually an interesting story. So I was offered the chair of

psychiatry at Columbia. And Ken Davis at that point was the CEO of, at Mount Sinai, which I

didn't know that much about Mount Sinai.

00:04:45:19 - 00:05:04:21

Dr. Dennis Charney

But Ken and I, were best friends. And so it's going back and forth. So I become chair of

psychiatry at Columbia, which would be kind of an obvious, I think, at being a psychiatrist or

come, to Mount Sinai, where Ken said to me, you know, you would become Dean. So I was

going back and forth.

00:05:04:26 - 00:05:14:49

Dr. Dennis Charney

And one of my daughters is a psychologist, and she said, you have the opportunity to work with

your best friend. I said, you're right. Yeah. I'm coming to Mount Sinai.

00:05:15:01 - 00:05:24:06

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. Sometimes you just follow your gut, not your head. What do you think are three of your

strongest characteristics or traits that allowed you to be successful?

00:05:24:10 - 00:05:35:53

Dr. Dennis Charney

Passionate. Very committed to. When I set a goal, and I expect the people around me to be

committed, be passionate, and frankly, shoot to be great.

00:05:35:58 - 00:05:44:06

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah, I think if you have if you if you're committed and have passion, there's not much. I mean,

you'll figure it out. You'll get it done right.

00:05:44:11 - 00:06:07:04

Dr. Dennis Charney

But you want to be a key is that I want people around me who want to be great, not just good. In

fact, when I first took over deanship back in oh seven, I bought a book called Good to Great by

Jim Collins, very well-known book, and I bought it for every chair. Every leader at Mount Sinai.00:06:07:04 - 00:06:14:24

Dr. Dennis Charney

And I said, you better read it, because if you're not willing to shoot for greatness, you're in the

wrong place.

00:06:14:25 - 00:06:31:43

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. Oh, I couldn't agree more. Let's talk about resilience. You literally wrote a book on

resilience. And if you've made it a big focus of your of your work and your research, what

prompted your interest in psychiatry, psychiatry and specifically resilience? And how do you

define resilience?

00:06:31:48 - 00:07:19:34

Dr. Dennis Charney

It's not a you know, it's not difficult, to conceive what resilience is. It's the ability to bounce back.

You know, when you're faced with a serious obstacle in your life, trauma, disappointment, you

know, how do you overcome that? And in many cases, even become stronger. I became

interested in resilience with my buddy, my long term other best friend, Steve Southwick, when

we were at the Yale West Haven VA hospital, where I was chief of psychiatry, and Steve was

overseeing, the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder, and we felt that we could come up

with better treatments for PTSD if we could understand resilience.

00:07:19:39 - 00:07:34:57

Dr. Dennis Charney

So we decided we're going to study resilience people. And we ended up getting to interview and

in many cases, becoming friends with people who were resilient. Right. And it changed our life,

our personal life.

00:07:35:11 - 00:07:46:18

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. Is is resilience genetic or is it a learned behavior, or is it truly only just a direct result of a

trauma or a problem?

00:07:46:23 - 00:08:10:30

Dr. Dennis Charney

A resilience is both, genetic and, can be based on life experiences. You can train yourself to

become a more resilient, person. In fact, that, has been the focus of our research for the last

many years. So. But it is partly genetic. But genes are not destiny. You can train yourself to be

more resilient person.

00:08:10:35 - 00:08:16:21

Dr. Dennis CharneySo then, when you're faced with the next obstacle, in your life, you're prepared.

00:08:16:33 - 00:08:25:55

Leslie Schlachter

Would you say that it's more optimism that kind of gives you the groundwork for resilience that

maybe you're born with?

00:08:26:00 - 00:08:56:42

Dr. Dennis Charney

It's not just optimism. When Steve and I, we're doing our work. And we got to know people from

many different, aspects of life, including POW from Vietnam. Really? There are a lot from Navy

Seals, special forces in the Army. People who are born with congenital, disease, you face

natural disasters who were unfortunately sexually abused.

00:08:56:43 - 00:08:59:29

Dr. Dennis Charney

So people from every different socioeconomic.

00:08:59:29 - 00:09:01:10

Leslie Schlachter

Right group.

00:09:01:15 - 00:09:14:12

Dr. Dennis Charney

Based on meeting those people and learning from them. We came up actually with ten factors

that relate to resilience and optimism. One, but there are others too, right?

00:09:14:16 - 00:09:21:33

Leslie Schlachter

It is just a part of it. Do you need humility in order to be resilient?

00:09:21:37 - 00:09:42:54

Dr. Dennis Charney

Not ness. I mean, humility is an important trait in general. You need to be optimistic. You know,

so if you're too humble, you're not. Maybe not. Maybe not optimistic. Right. So I would say,

optimism is a more important trait than being, you know, humble. But, of course, being humble

is a good thing.

00:09:42:59 - 00:09:59:46

Leslie Schlachter

So not everyone can be lucky enough to be optimistic. So what? What's your what's your advice

for those who are resilient? Like, I consider myself a very resilient optimist. Yeah. What's your

advice for people like me who are forced to live with or work with pessimists or non resilientpeople?

00:09:59:51 - 00:10:36:29

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah, I don't like being around pessimistic people, but you can, there's a form of therapy called

cognitive behavioral therapy. And the basis of that therapy, which is used for depression and

anxiety problems, is to help people see their world in a more optimist think way. So you can, you

can take a pessimist and maybe not make him an optimist, but you can make them less

pessimist like, and feel that they can overcome things and then prevail.

00:10:36:34 - 00:10:42:45

Dr. Dennis Charney

So, you can you can move. You can move the needle on people from pessimism to optimism.

00:10:42:50 - 00:10:48:22

Leslie Schlachter

and resilience?

How do you think how do you feel your physical fitness has played a role in your own strength

00:10:48:27 - 00:11:12:49

Dr. Dennis Charney

You know, we were talking about the importance of physical fitness and that was important to,

the prisoners of war who were held in Vietnam and who were held in very small cells. And one

of the, P.O.W. was that, it was a real model, a real role model that when it came to physical

fitness, was, Mayer and Lou practice the JFK 12 in the cell.

00:11:12:54 - 00:11:23:22

Dr. Dennis Charney

Got to the point where he could run 24 hours without stopping. And he also told Steve, my

buddy and myself when we were interviewing him, that he could do 61 pushups.

00:11:23:27 - 00:11:24:00

Leslie Schlachter

00:11:24:05 - 00:11:29:12

Dr. Dennis Charney

And I thought, you know I could do more than 60 because I wasn't that impressed. But then he,

but he.

00:11:29:13 - 00:11:30:37

Leslie Schlachter

Probably wasn't getting a lot of carbs.00:11:30:37 - 00:11:32:52

Dr. Dennis Charney

So. No. But one handed.

00:11:33:07 - 00:11:35:06

Leslie Schlachter

Oh

00:11:35:11 - 00:11:35:52

Dr. Dennis Charney

That's a, that's.

00:11:35:52 - 00:11:36:59

Leslie Schlachter

Tough. That's very impressive.

00:11:37:01 - 00:11:43:36

Dr. Dennis Charney

So physical fitness is very important to self-esteem and overcoming, the effects of the trauma.

00:11:43:40 - 00:11:57:12

Leslie Schlachter

I've gotten to know you really well behind your back as getting ready for this interview. And in

one of your interviews, you said, And we're going to get in a moment to your, your history with

violence, but it's important to you that you're tougher than the rest.

00:11:57:23 - 00:11:57:43

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah.

00:11:57:55 - 00:11:59:53

Leslie Schlachter

Why?

00:11:59:58 - 00:12:24:18

Dr. Dennis Charney

It's important to my self-esteem. You know that. That I'm a person that, could overcome things,

you know, that are difficult. That I meet challenges, you know, head on. So it was important to

my self-esteem. And as an athlete, I'm sure you resonate with this. I, I always felt that I was a

very tough competitor.

00:12:24:23 - 00:12:48:43Dr. Dennis Charney

And, in fact, there was once that one story was that there was a coach that I really admired

when I was in high school, and he he helped me. And then he became the head of, Brown

University, basketball team. And they won the Ivy League. And I wrote him a note. This is 20

years after he, he worked with me, and I said congratulations.

00:12:48:43 - 00:12:56:24

Dr. Dennis Charney

And he wrote me back. He said, I remember you were a tough player. He didn't say I was a

great player. He said I was a tough player.

00:12:56:25 - 00:13:12:50

Leslie Schlachter

You just need grit. That's all you need, but I like. I took that as good. I would too. So I what can

you tell us a story, about the incident you were shot several years ago. Can you share with us

what happened and how that kind of helped you on your own continued journey of resilience?

00:13:12:52 - 00:13:14:17

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah.

00:13:14:22 - 00:13:44:26

Dr. Dennis Charney

So not now. It happened at the end of August in 2016. I live in a town called Chappaqua, and

there's a a deli called Lange's, deli that is, everybody goes to in the town, like, cheers. From the

old show. And so I live about a mile from Lange's. And so I left the house one morning and went

to Lange's, where I got a bagel and coffee, which I always get.

00:13:44:31 - 00:14:13:23

Dr. Dennis Charney

And I walked out of the, the deli, and all of a sudden I heard a loud boom. And I was shot, in the

right side, upper right side of my my body. And the first thing I had. So I turned around to go

back into the, to the deli. And it turns out that I was shot on the right side, so I dropped the

coffee.

00:14:13:28 - 00:14:14:04

Dr. Dennis Charney

But I had a bagel.

00:14:14:04 - 00:14:14:43

Leslie Schlachter

It held the bagel.00:14:14:43 - 00:14:35:47

Dr. Dennis Charney

In, and I never dropped a bagel, even though I was shot. So one of the things we found out, I

didn't know it right away, is I was shot by a former Mount Sinai faculty member who we had

terminated for scientific misconduct. I didn't really.

00:14:35:51 - 00:14:37:12

Leslie Schlachter

Like many years before.

00:14:37:12 - 00:14:37:51

Dr. Dennis Charney

7 or 8.

00:14:37:52 - 00:14:38:48

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah.

00:14:38:52 - 00:14:57:36

Dr. Dennis Charney

And I didn't really know him. But because I was the dean, I signed the final. Right, termination a

letter. But he obviously became obsessed with me, tracked me down in my hometown, and

there was actually evidence that for a period of time before he shot me, he figured out way.

00:14:57:37 - 00:14:58:49

Leslie Schlachter

To get to know your schedule.

00:14:58:49 - 00:15:29:04

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah, where I lived. Yeah. And so he shot me, and then, I ended up in the ICU here at Mount

Sinai. You know, hospital lost half my blood. And I did take it as a challenge because I was

studying resilience, but I never, based something like that on Vietnam era. But I never went to

Vietnam because I was in college and, grad school, so I.

00:15:29:09 - 00:15:33:09

Dr. Dennis Charney

I did take it as a challenge on how I would recover.

00:15:33:14 - 00:15:45:38

Leslie Schlachter

Did you just, like, pull out your grit and just do your best and be the toughest to go through it, or

did you actively think to yourself, okay, these are the steps of the resilience. Let me work onthem.

00:15:45:43 - 00:16:11:33

Dr. Dennis Charney

I was going to find out if I was resilient, right. And I felt that was a very important find that out

because I had research resilience right. I found out that a lot of things that we identified as the

prescription for resilience made a difference for me. When I am an optimistic person. So that

help social support is very important from people that you really care about.

00:16:11:33 - 00:16:38:57

Dr. Dennis Charney

You and I had my family, my friends right away. And the faculty here were very, you know, very,

supportive. Now, you mentioned tougher than the rest. So this sounds totally weird, but. Bruce

Springsteen, who I'm a real fan of, wrote a song called Tougher Than the Rest. And I kept

hearing that song when I was in the ICU, and I said, I'm going to be tougher than the rest.

00:16:39:01 - 00:16:43:10

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah, I mean, a good title, not so much the lyrics. Maybe you're right.

00:16:43:10 - 00:16:47:15

Dr. Dennis Charney

The lyrics weren't exactly related to that, but, the titles.

00:16:47:20 - 00:17:16:48

Leslie Schlachter

Right. So, just for like, people listening, resilience isn't necessarily how you deal with something

while you're going through it. It's how you come out the other side. Right? Because it might be

you might feel weak and not up to the challenge of the moment, but really, how what kind of

person do you come out on the other side and what major differences did you see in yourself,

specifically in your in your personal life and at work with what that did for you and continue

shaping you?

00:17:16:53 - 00:17:41:44

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah. So you're right. You know, the first couple days after, you know, you've been shot or

something else happened to you, those bad. The resilience comes through as a process, in

your recovery. And in many cases, you can come out the other side stronger, right? And better

prepared for what else life is going to bring to you.

00:17:41:49 - 00:18:05:52

Dr. Dennis Charney

And, in my case, a lot of that happened, you know, one, you know, when you could have beenkilled and I could have been killed because if I didn't turn toward my car coming out, the shotgun

blast would have hit me up front on, and then I would have been killed. Right. So you learn to

appreciate life, in a more real way.

00:18:05:52 - 00:18:26:44

Dr. Dennis Charney

You know, almost a day to day out, in a way. It also helped me become more of a role model. So

when I would talk about resilience, I would talk about what happened to me, and it would help

the people that I was talking to and, and helping them overcome things, and that I could be a

role model.

00:18:26:49 - 00:18:49:13

Dr. Dennis Charney

And there was one case, not too long after I was shot, maybe a year later, where there was a

shooting at Bronx Lebanon Hospital here in a in New York, in the Bronx, and there was a

resident that was shot in the hospital who was more seriously ill. And he was transferred to

Mount Sinai. And I went to visit him.

00:18:49:21 - 00:18:51:18

Leslie Schlachter

I remember hearing about this. Yeah.

00:18:51:23 - 00:18:59:55

Dr. Dennis Charney

And I you know, I said to him I may be the dean but I'm your brother, right. You know, and I said

I can help you recover from your shotgun.

00:19:00:00 - 00:19:24:50

Leslie Schlachter

Right. Wounds. So when we share a little bit more history, I did I was on, the Road to Resilience

podcast a while ago about my experience with gunshots and violence. I watched my sister get

shot to death many years ago, about 22 years ago. And even though I wasn't personally shot, I

watched it happen and I ran for my life.

00:19:24:51 - 00:19:44:18

Leslie Schlachter

And, so I know exactly what it's like to have PTSD. Loud noises. Can you talk a little bit about

what lingering PTSD you had after the event, and maybe even still to this day? For example, if I

hear a loud noise?

00:19:44:19 - 00:19:45:25

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah.00:19:45:30 - 00:19:50:03

Leslie Schlachter

I mean, I just have my startle reflex is not appropriate. Yeah.

00:19:50:07 - 00:20:01:55

Dr. Dennis Charney

So I didn't develop diagnosable PTSD. But it had some symptoms, right? For a long time I didn't

watch violent shows on TV.

00:20:02:00 - 00:20:03:16

Leslie Schlachter

Right.

00:20:03:21 - 00:20:12:44

Dr. Dennis Charney

And for a while, I even when I think about it now, really, you know, I didn't go out that much. You

know, I went back to work 2 or 3 weeks ago.

00:20:12:46 - 00:20:14:44

Leslie Schlachter

Controllable environment, you know.

00:20:14:49 - 00:20:37:13

Dr. Dennis Charney

And I gave the white coat speech 2 or 3 weeks after I was shot. It was actually the best speech I

think I ever gave. But I, you know, my wife and I didn't go to restaurants, you know, for a while.

And like I said, I didn't watch, you know, TV programs that were violent. And when there was

violence in the news, it was a reminder.

00:20:37:13 - 00:20:58:55

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah. Right. But then it turned into something positive. And, you know, I began to think, you

know, you know, I fully recovered physically and now my role model. It's made me a stronger

person. And it made me more able to help other people because I could talk about my own

experience.

00:20:59:02 - 00:21:05:03

Leslie Schlachter

better person.

Only a truly resilient, optimistic person can look at something like that and say, this made me a

00:21:05:07 - 00:21:35:40Dr. Dennis Charney

It did. Yeah. You know, in fact, two weeks ago, I know the fire commissioner, the, of New York, in

fact, because he was involved in providing security, you know, for me, after I got shot. And so

now he's the commissioner of. And he asked me to talk to the graduates of the, training of the

academy and, in the fire department, and I went a couple of weeks ago.

00:21:35:45 - 00:21:38:48

Dr. Dennis Charney

First of all, it was amazing because I walked in with him and they all stood at attention.

00:21:38:53 - 00:21:44:08

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. I say you're like, oh, I like this. I should have. Yeah, my faculty should do this.

00:21:44:13 - 00:22:03:09

Dr. Dennis Charney

But I was able to talk, to these young men and women who were going to become firefighters,

and they were going to face trauma that just part of the job. And to talk to them about resilience

and to tell them about my own personal experience. Right. I couldn't have done that if I had

been shot.

00:22:03:10 - 00:22:20:17

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. So, I mean, I hate saying we're lucky, but I think you and I probably both had the tools in

our toolbox to get through our own traumas. Yeah. There are a lot of people out there that don't.

Despite their best efforts, they don't have the tools in their toolbox, and they need to harder

therapy or more medications.

00:22:20:22 - 00:22:27:58

Leslie Schlachter

bit about that?

Now, you worked on ketamine for the treatment of depression and PTSD. Can you tell us a little

00:22:28:03 - 00:22:51:03

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah. So the work on ketamine is mainly revolved around depression. So it's a part of the

research I, was doing for many years. And it actually started when I was at Yale. And the

research that we were doing determined that the traditional antidepressants took a lot of work.

00:22:51:03 - 00:22:51:56

Leslie Schlachter

Right.00:22:52:01 - 00:23:16:01

Dr. Dennis Charney

And they work through mono means evertonian and norepinephrine. And we felt that that was

not enough, that we needed to look for another mechanism by which people could get better

from depression. And we ultimately, we and my colleague there as John Crystal, who I was his

mentor and now he's chairman of psychiatry at Yale, we're still close friends.

00:23:16:06 - 00:23:40:58

Dr. Dennis Charney

We felt that it might involve another chemical system called glutamate. And there was a drug,

ketamine, that affected the glutamate system. So we felt, you know, maybe it might be had that

depression they know. So we had a bit of a theory there, and we did the first study with 7 or 8

patients where we gave, ketamine or a placebo, and the patients got better in a few hours.

00:23:41:02 - 00:23:42:32

Leslie Schlachter

How did you. Was it an infusion?

00:23:42:45 - 00:23:45:37

Dr. Dennis Charney

It was an infusion. And it was like a miracle.

00:23:45:39 - 00:23:48:49

Leslie Schlachter

And how long did the treatment result last.

00:23:48:54 - 00:23:54:57

Dr. Dennis Charney

Well the single dose. So there's only a single dose right. The single dose lasts between 2 to 3

days.

00:23:55:10 - 00:23:56:31

Leslie Schlachter

Okay.

00:23:56:36 - 00:24:03:27

Dr. Dennis Charney

But to see patients get better so quickly, it was like awakenings. Where. Yeah. Parkinson's

patients got L-dopa.

00:24:03:32 - 00:24:04:14

Leslie Schlachter

Right.00:24:04:19 - 00:24:15:46

Dr. Dennis Charney

And we were experienced clinicians, so we knew this was real, but nobody believed it. They

didn't believe in the mechanism of a glutamate or that you can get better right away.

00:24:15:48 - 00:24:18:46

Leslie Schlachter

Also, ketamine scares people just, you know, people.

00:24:18:47 - 00:24:19:46

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah. Back then it did.

00:24:19:51 - 00:24:20:42

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah.

00:24:20:47 - 00:24:45:38

Dr. Dennis Charney

So we published it. It kind of just sat there. Nobody tried to replicate it. And then I left Yale to go

to the National Institute of Mental Health. And I said to the group there, we got to replicate it, so

we replicated it. Then all hell broke loose with people replicating it. And ultimately we padded it.

And it's now on the market as provato.

00:24:45:43 - 00:24:56:39

Leslie Schlachter

How how often like, let's say, if you can imagine how often ketamine should be used. What

percentage is it actually use now? Is it still underused?

00:24:56:43 - 00:25:14:36

Dr. Dennis Charney

It's I don't know if it's underused, but I know it's use is being dramatically increased because

people are becoming more comfortable with it. It works. The treatment resistant depression

which is common. And it got approved as a monotherapy. So it's going to be used even more.

00:25:14:38 - 00:25:17:26

Leslie Schlachter

What's the regimen that they recommend for that.

00:25:17:31 - 00:25:24:09

Dr. Dennis Charney

So it's intranasal and so it's convenient. And you take it twice a week. So you don't have to takeit every day.

00:25:24:10 - 00:25:24:41

Leslie Schlachter

That's great.

00:25:24:54 - 00:25:30:36

Dr. Dennis Charney

You take it twice a week for at least say 4 to 6 weeks, although you're going to get better in the

first week.

00:25:30:43 - 00:25:31:30

Leslie Schlachter

Right.

00:25:31:35 - 00:25:42:58

Dr. Dennis Charney

And then the the doctor will determine that you still need to take it twice a week. Or maybe I

need to take it once a week or every other week. So it's different than other treatments. We

have to take pills every day.

00:25:43:03 - 00:25:48:58

Leslie Schlachter

And our most providers like is this readily available to people getting to the right psychiatrist.

00:25:49:03 - 00:25:59:01

Dr. Dennis Charney

You have to get to the right psychiatrist who has the experience in monitoring, the effects of

ketamine, but it's now much more available.

00:25:59:06 - 00:26:11:31

Leslie Schlachter

That's amazing. Yeah. Do you think we're ever going to get to a cure where there's something

that maybe, like 1 or 2 treatments and then someone's cured? It doesn't require any more

treatments in depression. Yeah.

00:26:11:36 - 00:26:28:08

Dr. Dennis Charney

I mean, it's possible. Ketamine is not a cure. You know that, it's not like you take it once and

you're. You're done. You're better. So we're not there yet. But going from anti-depressants that

take weeks to months to a treatment like ketamine, that works right away.

00:26:28:12 - 00:26:31:18Leslie Schlachter

And side effects a lot of side effects, a lot of the medications.

00:26:31:22 - 00:26:46:40

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah. But. But the advance of the treatment taking a long time to getting people getting it better

in a few hours, you know, that means we're getting closer. Right. To maybe come up with a

treatment that might be curative. But we're not there now.

00:26:46:53 - 00:26:55:12

Leslie Schlachter

Our treatments, like deep brain stimulation for depression or ECT. Are those curable? Or again,

just kind of Band-Aids.

00:26:55:17 - 00:27:19:59

Dr. Dennis Charney

I wouldn't Band-Aid is not the right word. Because you can. Depression is a serious disease.

You know, you know, suicide can happen. So these are real treatments. It's like, and in a way,

diabetes. Right. Right. So in many cases, it can be chronic, but some people only have first

episodes of depression, and then you treat them and they stay well.

00:27:20:04 - 00:27:42:56

Dr. Dennis Charney

So the treatments are pretty good. Yeah. ECT is for people with more serious depression. It

turns out that ketamine is as good as ECT or better. So now patients that would normally go to

ECT are getting ketamine, right. You know, first the same with deep brain stimulation. That's a

more aggressive, treatment for people who have not responded to other things.

00:27:42:57 - 00:28:06:36

Leslie Schlachter

Right. My, my father suffered from debilitating depression most of his life, and many years ago

when he went through treatment of prostate cancer and needed radiation and suffered a lot of

the complications. It triggered another pretty severe depressive episode. And so many pills.

Nothing was working. And he he did very well. It's been now ten years since successful ECT for

him.

00:28:06:41 - 00:28:09:00

Leslie Schlachter

He went two rounds, changed his life.

00:28:09:00 - 00:28:10:21

Dr. Dennis Charney

It's great because it can really.00:28:10:23 - 00:28:21:27

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah I will say but like even being in health care for me in health care I heard ect. And I got

nervous like that. Like why are we still doing this? That seems so old age but it's not. It works

quite well, it.

00:28:21:27 - 00:28:22:45

Dr. Dennis Charney

Works quite well and it's safe.

00:28:22:49 - 00:28:42:47

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk for a minute about the killing of Brian Thompson, the CEO of United

Health Care, which took place on December 4th here in New York. I can draw some parallels

with what happened to you. From what? You know, as a leader of a health care institution and

yourself being a victim. What are your thoughts on this incident?

00:28:42:52 - 00:29:00:23

Dr. Dennis Charney

It's becoming more common. Yeah. You know that, It's becoming more common that physicians

are being attacked even within hospital settings. And so when I heard that, I in a way, I wasn't

surprised.

00:29:00:27 - 00:29:03:47

Leslie Schlachter

Right. Which is awful to feel that way. Right. You know.

00:29:03:52 - 00:29:26:58

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah, it is, but more and more people who are in leadership positions, whether it's in, you know,

health care or politics, right. President Trump was attacked twice. So if you make, you know,

decisions, you know, that are are publicly renown or known.

00:29:27:03 - 00:29:28:09

Leslie Schlachter

Right.

00:29:28:13 - 00:29:30:18

Dr. Dennis Charney

That you can be at risk and you got to be careful.

00:29:30:23 - 00:29:41:26Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. And it's like you said, like the buck stops with you. You didn't know this guy that shot you,

but you signed off. And ultimately, it's like the buck has to stop with someone. So that's where

people might put their anger.

00:29:41:31 - 00:29:42:07

Dr. Dennis Charney

That's right.

00:29:42:12 - 00:29:43:48

Leslie Schlachter

Exactly. So this is not surprising to you.

00:29:43:51 - 00:29:45:42

Dr. Dennis Charney

I'll be careful. Yeah.

00:29:45:46 - 00:29:54:18

Leslie Schlachter

Back to the health care providers that you work with. What do you what do you think are the

most coveted or important qualities in the health care providers that you work with?

00:29:54:23 - 00:30:03:49

Dr. Dennis Charney

Dedication to that patients. Empathy in terms of what the patients are going through. Patient

needs to feel that you really care about them.

00:30:03:54 - 00:30:04:57

Leslie Schlachter

00:30:05:02 - 00:30:21:42

Dr. Dennis Charney

And great skill that a great physician let's say physician. But of course it could be other

clinicians. Makes all the difference. If you have a serious disease. You could go to one place

and get mediocre care. And maybe you don't get better.

00:30:21:46 - 00:30:22:30

Leslie Schlachter

Right.

00:30:22:35 - 00:30:25:55

Dr. Dennis CharneyAnd you go to a great clinician. You could be cured.

00:30:26:00 - 00:30:26:46

Leslie Schlachter

Right.

00:30:26:51 - 00:30:34:34

Dr. Dennis Charney

It's a big difference. So you want to go to the best place. But empathy in terms of personal

characteristics, it's dedication. And empathy is very important.

00:30:34:39 - 00:30:52:59

Leslie Schlachter

Right. Which goes back to what you said. You think your your strongest traits are. Did I say

that? Yeah. The beginning. Yeah. What would you want from what you've seen and you've been

here for a while, what would you say are some of the common mistakes that healthcare

providers make in their practice?

00:30:53:04 - 00:31:02:50

Dr. Dennis Charney

They get tired. They don't take care of themselves. In other words, don't pay attention to their

own personal, wellness.

00:31:02:51 - 00:31:03:25

Leslie Schlachter

Right.

00:31:03:30 - 00:31:25:45

Dr. Dennis Charney

So when they're that could come through, when they're treating patients and that they're not

feeling, in an optimal fashion to take care of people. And obviously, they need to they need to

stay on top of advances in their field because, you know, medicine and discovery and medicine,

different diseases is at a very rapid pace now. Yeah.

00:31:25:48 - 00:31:36:39

Dr. Dennis Charney

And so you can't rely on what you learned in med school to treat patients with the conditions

you're expert at. Ten years later you got to really stay on top of things.

00:31:36:43 - 00:31:52:39

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. I mean, being a health care provider these days is is a sport. It's a sport. I mean, I have to

I have to sleep well, get exercise, be well fed and hydrated, or else how am I going to see 30patients in a day? Go to the O.R. and have enough empathy to make phone calls at 5:00 for

people who are mad that I didn't call them back at ten.

00:31:52:40 - 00:31:54:00

Leslie Schlachter

It's exhausting.

00:31:54:05 - 00:31:55:55

Dr. Dennis Charney

Be very difficult to stay on top of your field.

00:31:56:02 - 00:32:19:36

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. Yeah. And it is true. Okay. So truly taking care of yourself. So generally speaking, people

coming into health care or starting to feel burnt out, really following the prescription for

resilience, which hopefully we can put up at the bottom of the screen, we can put up the link to

the prescription for resilience. Because I read through that and I feel, generally speaking, I'm

really good at crossing off everything on that list.

00:32:19:40 - 00:32:24:28

Leslie Schlachter

But it becomes really difficult by like noon on Friday to keep crossing everything on that list.

00:32:24:37 - 00:32:25:42

Dr. Dennis Charney

You get tired, got tired.

00:32:25:44 - 00:32:26:52

Leslie Schlachter

You get tired at the end of a week.

00:32:27:03 - 00:32:28:16

Dr. Dennis Charney

You work out every day.

00:32:28:21 - 00:32:35:55

Leslie Schlachter

For five days a week. Okay. Today's a rest. It's very hard for me to have a rest day. Rest days

are the most difficult because I really just want to go to the gym. Yeah.

00:32:36:00 - 00:32:38:13

Dr. Dennis Charney

I take Monday off.00:32:38:18 - 00:32:39:32

Leslie Schlachter

Monday is a good one. You work?

00:32:39:41 - 00:32:43:34

Dr. Dennis Charney

I work. I exercise much more on the weekends.

00:32:43:39 - 00:32:46:50

Leslie Schlachter

Do you have long? Do you have longer, heavier lifts on the weekends?

00:32:46:55 - 00:32:48:25

Dr. Dennis Charney

Well, now you're getting to my routine.

00:32:48:36 - 00:32:51:11

Leslie Schlachter

Kind of. Yeah. I mean, we're here.

00:32:51:16 - 00:32:53:18

Dr. Dennis Charney

I alternate, so I do lift heavy.

00:32:53:24 - 00:32:54:15

Leslie Schlachter

00:32:54:19 - 00:33:00:03

Dr. Dennis Charney

And so I will generally alternate days in terms of lifting and cardio.

00:33:00:12 - 00:33:03:11

Leslie Schlachter

Do you do upper body, lower body or do you do a split.

00:33:03:16 - 00:33:13:40

Dr. Dennis Charney

I do my cardio is kind of upper body and lower body. Okay. You know so my cardio is on the run

machine in the rowing machine. Or now I have what's called an assault bike you know.

00:33:13:42 - 00:33:14:24Leslie Schlachter

Oh yeah. Yeah.

00:33:14:31 - 00:33:22:21

Dr. Dennis Charney

Which is really good. And then on the days I don't do that, I do really heavy lifting on the upper

body.

00:33:22:26 - 00:33:23:17

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah.

00:33:23:22 - 00:33:30:25

Dr. Dennis Charney

A bench press, chest press. Rose. That's those sort of. And I have a heavy bag.

00:33:30:30 - 00:33:33:38

Leslie Schlachter

And do you work out at home or do you go to a gym.

00:33:33:43 - 00:33:49:32

Dr. Dennis Charney

You know for many years, as you may know, I worked out here with the students. Right. And

then and I love that. But then the pandemic hit. And in the beginning of the pandemic, I don't

know what you did, but, you know, what I did is a before I built the gym in my house, which I

have now.

00:33:49:37 - 00:33:50:49

Dr. Dennis Charney

I did the stairs.

00:33:50:54 - 00:33:51:17

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah.

00:33:51:21 - 00:33:58:46

Dr. Dennis Charney

So I walked up to 25 flags three times. Before my, my house had a gym. And so now I have a

gym.

00:33:58:51 - 00:34:07:24

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah, I did, like, push ups and lunges and burpees, and I hated every second of it. I just wanted,like, metal to push. Yeah. So.

00:34:07:24 - 00:34:10:05

Dr. Dennis Charney

The gym I have in my house, I got everything.

00:34:10:10 - 00:34:16:52

Leslie Schlachter

And do you like working out by yourself, not having anyone around? Or do you like kind of

having the socialization and chatting with people at the gym?

00:34:16:56 - 00:34:23:20

Dr. Dennis Charney

I like it better. You know, socializing with other folks. That's why I love being in the student gym.

But in terms of time.

00:34:23:33 - 00:34:25:10

Leslie Schlachter

Right.

00:34:25:15 - 00:34:32:20

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah, I work when I come, I work. I want to come home so I can go right downstairs. And you

know, get it done. So it's more convenient.

00:34:32:33 - 00:34:33:39

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:33:43 - 00:34:41:11

Dr. Dennis Charney

And then on the weekends, I kayak, with my son, you know? So we're outdoors and we're

together. We're buddies.

00:34:41:20 - 00:34:58:43

Leslie Schlachter

That's nice. That's really. That's lovely. Well, you were just talking about time, so your tenure is

somewhat coming to an end here. As the longest serving dean here at the School of Medicine.

Looking back, is there anything you wish you would have done differently?

00:34:58:48 - 00:35:18:45

Dr. Dennis Charney

I mean, I wouldn't say major things. You know, the major decisions that I made generally workedout in terms of performing research institutes and changing the curriculum for our med students

and so forth. But there's always little mistakes like, sometimes I didn't know always recruit the

right person, right.

00:35:18:54 - 00:35:19:50

Leslie Schlachter

00:35:19:55 - 00:35:25:18

Dr. Dennis Charney

And that sort of thing. But it's been a great run. It's going to be difficult stepping down.

00:35:25:22 - 00:35:34:50

Leslie Schlachter

What advice could you offer folks who are considering or actively pursuing a career in medicine,

particularly psychiatry and research?

00:35:34:55 - 00:35:52:30

Dr. Dennis Charney

I have no regrets. You know, I graduated med school in 1977, and it's never had a regret. It's

such a great field, to be a physician. Whether you're primarily treating patients, which can be

very rewarding.

00:35:52:30 - 00:35:54:36

Leslie Schlachter

Right?

00:35:54:41 - 00:36:16:43

Dr. Dennis Charney

I love research, you know, because I felt I could make discoveries that not only have one person

at a time, but can help a large number of patients. So. But either way, you know. Fine. So here's

another little tidbit. You know, so when people ask me, you know, how do I decide that, what to

focus on?

00:36:16:48 - 00:36:27:57

Dr. Dennis Charney

And I say one, you got to be passionate about it, right? You got to have fun doing it. And you got

to be good at it. Now, if you're not good at it, don't choose.

00:36:27:59 - 00:36:29:40

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah.00:36:29:45 - 00:36:36:34

Dr. Dennis Charney

So I think if you follow those three things. Yeah. You're passionate, you have fun and you're

good at it. It'll work out.

00:36:36:36 - 00:36:51:33

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. I think, like, following your gut, making decisions. A lot of people feel like they have to

follow what somebody else tells them or their family. But maybe someone's telling them in their

head. But really, it has to be in your heart. So what does the future hold for you with all this

possibly newfound time?

00:36:51:37 - 00:37:10:48

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people say, well, I'm going to spend more time with my

family. I spend a lot of time with my family now. So that's not the reason I decided to step down.

I've been doing it for 18 years, and I felt that, I wanted to leave at the top of my game.

00:37:10:53 - 00:37:14:19

Dr. Dennis Charney

And so I feel I'm doing that. But now I got to figure out what I'm going to do.

00:37:14:24 - 00:37:17:57

Leslie Schlachter

Maybe you'll do leg day.

00:37:18:01 - 00:37:29:31

Dr. Dennis Charney

I can't exercise. So I'm working on it. I'm going to still do my research with people I collaborate

with here. I'm going to write another book on resilience.

00:37:29:36 - 00:37:30:07

Leslie Schlachter

That's great.

00:37:30:09 - 00:37:35:28

Dr. Dennis Charney

And I'm going to figure out how to have that be an extension of what I've already done.

00:37:35:33 - 00:37:42:34

Leslie Schlachter

That's amazing. What, what do you think your wife and family expects from you in your

retirement?00:37:42:39 - 00:37:44:27

Dr. Dennis Charney

One is don't don't bother them.

00:37:44:33 - 00:37:46:50

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. Don't annoy them because you're around more.

00:37:46:55 - 00:38:11:03

Dr. Dennis Charney

Now it's. My wife and I are very, She's the best. We've been together, for 56 years. So that,

spending time together is not is going to be great. But their expectation is that I remain happy.

Yeah. And passionate about what I'm doing. That's that's key to them.

00:38:11:07 - 00:38:31:18

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. I think you, from what you said you wanted to. You wanted to step down while you still felt

you were at the top of your game. I think this was a surprise to everyone. They thought we had

many more years with you in this position, so definitely I think you did that. So I'm assuming

when you leave here as Dean, either whether you hand it off to somebody long term or

someone interim, there's going to be quite a sign out.

00:38:31:22 - 00:38:46:07

Leslie Schlachter

I'm sure you've seen lots of changes over the years of what challenges are for medical students

or medical schools. What do you see in the next ten years as some of the biggest challenges for

medical schools and medical students that you'll want the next dean to focus on?

00:38:46:12 - 00:39:19:54

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily see those challenges. There's so many opportunities, because

discoveries are happening all the time. So the opportunity went away. A challenge and an

opportunity. You know, the rate of new knowledge is gotten faster. And so in training the next

generation, both as medical students and residents. Right. And, having make sure our

physicians in general are staying up to date, right.

00:39:19:58 - 00:39:35:24

Dr. Dennis Charney

That's the challenge. The opportunity is we're discovering great things. We're doing a lot better

in taking care of cancer patients and heart disease and neurological and psychiatric diseases.

So, opportunities and challenges go together.00:39:35:25 - 00:39:40:36

Leslie Schlachter

So going back to what you recommend for providers, which is, you know, stay curious, stay

educated, keep learning.

00:39:40:49 - 00:39:43:05

Dr. Dennis Charney

And luckily we have things like ChatGPT.

00:39:43:10 - 00:39:44:26

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah.

00:39:44:31 - 00:39:49:40

Dr. Dennis Charney

Smartphones. Know when I was training, we, we didn't have any of that.

00:39:49:42 - 00:39:53:04

Leslie Schlachter

We carried, like, giant books around in our pocket. I didn't have that either.

00:39:53:04 - 00:39:54:07

Dr. Dennis Charney

Had the Washington manual.

00:39:54:10 - 00:40:13:43

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that's that's the issue is they're they're lucky these days, but there's

also a lot more they have to learn, like when you went to medical school and even when I went

to school, there was no like, we didn't talk about brain computer interface or artificial intelligence

or even have apps like that wasn't. So now then they have to.

00:40:13:48 - 00:40:15:30

Leslie Schlachter

It's a lot to learn how to use all of that.

00:40:15:43 - 00:40:22:07

Dr. Dennis Charney

But that's can be fun and the ability to learn a lot more. That's where the opportunities are.

Right.

00:40:22:12 - 00:40:29:01

Leslie SchlachterLet's talk for a moment about failure. Looking back at your career or your personal life, what

would you say maybe was your biggest failure?

00:40:29:06 - 00:40:32:00

Dr. Dennis Charney

Okay. Regarding my personal life, you're going to like this one.

00:40:32:00 - 00:40:33:31

Leslie Schlachter

Okay.

00:40:33:36 - 00:40:49:33

Dr. Dennis Charney

I still remember there was a game in high school. It was the situation to dream about. We were

down by one. Oh, no. With, like, 15 seconds to go. The play was for me. I went up.

00:40:49:35 - 00:40:50:31

Leslie Schlachter

What position did you play?

00:40:50:33 - 00:41:02:12

Dr. Dennis Charney

I was the point guard okay. Okay. So I, I remember the move I made. I had pretty clear shot and

at the moment the key moment I couldn't decide whether to bank it or swish it.

00:41:02:13 - 00:41:03:07

Leslie Schlachter

So you flubbed it.

00:41:03:09 - 00:41:05:20

Dr. Dennis Charney

I loved it. Oh and we lost.

00:41:05:29 - 00:41:06:22

Leslie Schlachter

You always bank.

00:41:06:23 - 00:41:21:51

Dr. Dennis Charney

And for you for years. This. This is actually true. For years, I had the feeling that when it came to

crunch time, not only in sports but in life, I wouldn't succeed. So it took a number of.

00:41:21:55 - 00:41:23:10Leslie Schlachter

Yeah.

00:41:23:15 - 00:41:39:24

Dr. Dennis Charney

At times when I did make the last shot or succeed, you know, in facing things. So I got to the

point. I said, you know, I am clutch. Yeah, but that was bad in my junior year playing Oceanside.

So that was a big that was big. I can still remember today.

00:41:39:28 - 00:41:40:54

Leslie Schlachter

What about in your professional career?

00:41:40:55 - 00:42:13:45

Dr. Dennis Charney

So in professional, you know, career first, I tell our faculty often that if you're not failing, you're

not trying hard enough, particularly in research, that you need to push the envelope. And, that's

how you make great discoveries through failure. And in my case, the reason that we ultimately

went to glutamate in the in the discovery of ketamine is because there were a lot of experiments

when we were focusing on a different hypothesis, that it failed and by understanding that failure,

we ultimately came to.

00:42:13:48 - 00:42:15:07

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah, a big success.

00:42:15:09 - 00:42:19:18

Leslie Schlachter

I like the phrase, you never lose. You either win or learn.

00:42:19:22 - 00:42:20:13

Dr. Dennis Charney

That's a good that's good.

00:42:20:15 - 00:42:30:11

Leslie Schlachter

Yeah. What do you see as kind of like the new frontier or a new niche in either research or

medicine that you think is going to be really exciting over the next ten years.

00:42:30:16 - 00:42:55:25

Dr. Dennis Charney

So I'll make this partially partially personal, but it also is a new frontier. And that's gene editing

that when you determine through sequencing with genetic sequencing, which, you know, we cannow do more routinely, you're going to identify genes that guide you in, what treatment you

ought to use. Hasn't happened much yet, but it's going to really happen, routinely.

00:42:55:30 - 00:43:20:06

Dr. Dennis Charney

And occasionally you'll find a person who has a genetic disorder that you can literally change

the gene, you know, take out the bad gene and, put in the good, a good gene, right, in that

particular area and where it's what's where it's personal is that 7 or 8 years ago, I lost a

grandchild who had a single gene.

00:43:20:11 - 00:43:52:59

Dr. Dennis Charney

Genetic disorder, single gene. She was perfect in every way. Except she had a, a gene, which

she didn't make surfactant, you know, which is critical for lung function. So she only lived for

months, but she was perfect in every other way. Now we're getting close to gene editing, gene

therapy, that to take out that single bad gene and replace it with a gene that makes the fact that

she would live perfectly normal life.

00:43:53:04 - 00:44:01:23

Leslie Schlachter

How many conditions are there like that where there's just like one gene is responsible for this

major illness enough.

00:44:01:28 - 00:44:02:26

Dr. Dennis Charney

Yeah, I would say.

00:44:02:31 - 00:44:07:07

Leslie Schlachter

And is but the process is similar of kind of just like replacing that gene.

00:44:07:12 - 00:44:31:48

Dr. Dennis Charney

It's it's complicated, but it's becoming doable. And, you know, it's all about how do you, get the

gene in, you know, that process. But, now we're, with sickle cell, right? We're able to cure sickle

cell in terms of gene editing. And, now, Samia, you know, so there are more and more

conditions where we're going to be able to do that.

00:44:32:00 - 00:44:51:37

Leslie Schlachter

That's amazing. I did not know that. I'm learning that now. Yeah. Thank you so much for being

here today. I it was a pleasure spending time with you. I mean, I've listened to some of your

interviews and gotten to know you through other people throughout the year. So I feel like thiswas a real privilege to spend this time with you and hopefully, everyone listening, can you can

actually go online and search his name.

00:44:51:37 - 00:45:05:47

Leslie Schlachter

There's incredible interviews that you can learn even more specifically, I think the, the interview

that you did to the medical for the medical school where you talked more about the prisoners of

war in your in your teaching. So there's a lot more out there for you guys to, to learn about the

journey.