A’Lelia Bundles on Madam C.J. Walker’s Legacy, Black History & the Power of Storytelling

In this inspiring episode of The Color Between the Lines, host Esther Dillard speaks with award-winning journalist and author A’Lelia Bundles, the great-great-granddaughter of the legendary entrepreneur Madam C.J. Walker.

A’Lelia shares her journey of preserving and telling her family’s history, the untold stories behind Madam C.J. Walker’s rise as America’s first self-made female millionaire, and why Black women’s narratives remain essential to understanding American history.

📚 In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How Madam C.J. Walker built her beauty empire and influenced generations of Black entrepreneurs
• The role of family archives and historical research in keeping legacies alive
• Why telling authentic stories matters now more than ever
• A’Lelia Bundles’ personal reflections on identity, heritage, and cultural preservation
• Advice for writers and historians committed to telling underrepresented stories

Whether you’re passionate about Black history, women’s entrepreneurship, or the power of storytelling, this conversation will leave you inspired to preserve your own family’s legacy.

🔔 Subscribe to the podcast for more enlightening talks and join us in exploring how historical narratives shape our future. You can also watch it on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@thecolorbetweenthelines

Transcript

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In this edition of the Color Between the Lines. I'm speaking with journalist and author A' lelia Bundles. We're diving into the life of her legendary great grandmother, A' lelia Walker, known as the Joy Goddess of Harlem. I'm Esther Dillard, and welcome to the Color between the Lines, where we explore the stories behind the storytellers and. In this episode, award winning author a' Lelia Bundles shares how her namesake became a driving force during the Harlem Renaissance. Her latest book offers an intimate look at both the dazzling parties and the private struggles behind the glamour. This conversation peels back the layers of a Black woman's legacy rarely explored in history books. Let's dive into it. I know this book wasn't something that came together in just a few months. This has been a journey for years of research on holding onto history and just piecing together the life of someone that wasn't just family, but legacy. So before we even dive into Joy Goddess, I wanted. I, was just curious. When did you figure out that this was really the book you had to write? Was it during the writing of the first book about your great, great grandmother, Madam C.J. walker? Or was it before that? There were little steps on. All along the way. And, yes, while I was writing

"On Her Own Ground: 1:28

The Life and Times of Madam C.J. Walker", I thought I was writing a double biography. But at some point, I realized A'Lelia Walker needed her own biography. That. Madam Walker's story was 1867 to 1919. It was about building a business and being involved in politics. A' Lelia Walker's story really was about the 1920s and all of the artists and writers and musicians who she knew and her own charismatic life. But I will say that the seeds were planted before I could read. When I was a toddler, I would go to my grandfather's apartment with my mother, and and my late grandmother's bedroom seemed to have been untouched since 1945, when she died and I was born in 52. So as a little girl, I was exploring the dresser drawer, and there were things in the dresser that had belonged to A' Lelia Walker, and particularly these miniature mummy charms that just fit into my little girl's hands. And that I realized many years later A' Lelia Walker had bought when she was in Cairo in 1922. So this story has been with me all my life. It's fantastic. I was reading that part, and you brought it back to mind. A' lelia Walker was once called the Joy Goddess of Harlem in the 1920s. What does that nickname mean to you? And what should we understand about her influence during the Harlem Renaissance beyond just parties? Well, I couldn't resist the tit. Resist the title. Langston Hughes, in his memoir, the Big Sea, called a' Lelia Walker, the Joy goddess of Harlem's 1920s. So that's just an irresistible title. And it was because of the great party she gave, but it was also because she was a convener. She was a very charismatic person who loved having people around her. She was a great party giver. But it wasn't just parties. It was bringing people together from uptown and downtown in New York. Her international circle of friends included visitors from Europe and from Africa. But she also, at a time when people weren't comfortable being at interracial parties, she made sure everybody was welcome. You know, we take that for granted now that you can have a party where all of your friends across the spectrum are there. But that was unusual. And she was one of the only people in a position to do that, because she had her mother's three beautiful homes. The mansion in Irvington, the townhouse in Harlem, the small apartment in Harlem, and she could bring people together who ordinarily wouldn't have been in the same room at the same time. You mentioned that, in the book that while many people know Madam C.J. walker as a business icon, A' Lelia's story is often misunderstood or overlooked. What, I guess, are some of the biggest myths you wanted to correct about or truths that you wanted to bring out about, a' lelia's story? Sure. Yeah. I think when people have. Read a little bit about the Harlem Renaissance because it's such a fascinating period of time and people enjoy it, and they say, oh, I wish I had lived then, because I would have met all of those famous people, those writers and those musicians who I admire. And when a' Lelia Walker has been included in some of those really well known histories of the Harlem Renaissance, in some ways she's been caricatured. I mean, it's easy if you haven't really done the research to just say, oh, she had parties, she spent her mother's money. One famous historian said she spent the 1920s playing bridge. And she had a short attention span. So these were really put downs. But as I read her letters and talked with people who had known her, did those interviews, oral histories, I realized what an interesting person she was, what a complex person she was. Not a perfect human being, but, you know, who among us? And so I really wanted to create a multidimensional view of her and to take her beyond this cliche that sometimes has surrounded her image, you know? And I will say that the Netflix series Self Made, which was, as they say, inspired by my nonfiction book, Octavia Spencer, was great, but the character that was a' Lelia Walker in Self made is about 100. Different from the real life person. So I feel like I was starting from trying to, like, erase that image of her. Yeah, I read that. You really did not. You weren't a big fan of the series, and that was one of my last questions. But since you brought it up, I wondered if Joy Goddess were adapted to, like, by a studio, what scene would you have, I guess, wanted to see on screen? For sure. And who would play a Lilia? Well, I. Already actually am working on a project about Joy Goddess. This time around, I'm starting off working with people who are friends and people who have a track record and whose work I really like. So it'll be a very different experience. I learned a lot of lessons the last time around. I haven't picked, and sometimes you can't always get who you want. But I really think that. The sister who played Annie in Sinners. I'm just going to put that out there. She has the stature. She has the. You know, I'm putting that out there into the universe. Yes, but I just think a' lelia Walker's story is. First of a person who is trying to carve her own way with a larger than life mother. That's not a new story. There are lots of family stories like that, and I think that we would be able to see what that meant to be the child of a larger than life person. But seeing how she was the center of so much of the life and culture of the Harlem Renaissance, and it would give me an opportunity to introduce some of these amazing writers and musicians and artists and to show. Black folks in Harlem in the 1920s creating their own community. Yeah. Think of, the Harlem Renaissance. We think of the parties and we think of the theater and the musicals, and those things are important. But there's also this sort of offstage. Dimension, which is black folks reacting to and responding to the racism that was so much a part of America during that period of time. And they were creating their own world. And that is what I would love to do. Yeah. It was interesting that you talk about her. You know, using Joy almost like, as a tool of resistance, especially in an era that's marked with Jim Crow and censorship. I'm wondering, what did you. What did you find that she. How did she. I guess, use that in that era to. To make it, make the. The world better for herself and those around her? She was one. One of the few people who had the means, who had the wealth and who had the stature and, the influence to be able to bring people together and to be able to create that world. One of the things that fascinated me the most is that During World War I, she and her mother were very supportive of their friends who were in the army, who were fighting in France. And there were women's auxiliary groups raising money, sending cigarettes and chocolates and shaving razors to people in France. But a' Lelia Walker was chair of a committee to buy an ambulance. For black soldiers. And that, for me, was one of the first examples of how she understood her power, she understood her presence, and she understood that she could invite her friend Enrico Caruso, the famous operatic tenor, to be the Cameo celebrity at her fundraiser. And that worked. They raised a lot of money. And so, for me, that became a template for some of the things that she did later on. Was there any moment in there, in your research that really just kind of stopped you in your tracks? You're like, wow. And kind of made her more real than just historical. Oh, so many moments. Well, her relationship with her mother was profound. There are many ways that mother daughter relationships operate, and some are perfect. You know, I don't know any that really are perfect. But they had a relationship that one of their secretaries who still worked for the company 60 years after she was hired when I was growing up, who described their relationship as fire and ice. They loved each other dearly and they sometimes fought fiercely. A' lelia was her mother's motivation to try to make her life better. And that was to be able to examine that relationship was important to me. But in terms of the things that stopped me in my tracks, that she went to Paris, London, Rome, Addis Ababa, met the Empress, went to. Cairo, went to London. All of those things were fascinating to me. To think of a black woman. Sailing to Paris in November of 1921 in first class. Oh, my goodness. I would love to know about that. She's traveling by herself, you know. Traveling by herself. Yeah. At that time was that's just phenomenal. I thought that really stood out to me as well. You know, one thing that did stand out in the book, that in a strange way I could see some of a' Lelia Walker's lack of joy in her personal life, especially with Wiley, reflected in the same challenges that people kind of face today. I mean, in her preoccupation with how she was was perceived by the press and how people may have judged her relationships and her personal choices. It really kind of mirrors how people today invest in curating their image on social media and that kind of thing. Did you see that at all in writing this? Well, I thank you for picking up on the fact that. Joy goddess also has an ironic twist to it that, yes, she created joy for other people. She had these fabulous parties, but her life was not always joyful. Some of it was just being the expectations that other people had that she would be like her mother. People wanted to know, are you going to be as fabulous as your mother? Well, she was trying to create her own way of being fabulous. She made some really bad choices in terms of her marriages. And Wiley Wilson, who you mentioned, is fits the. Fits the name Wiley. And it is sort of a classic case where her mother really preferred one person, she preferred another. Both were handsome, both were doctors, one was a good guy, one was a bad boy. And that story takes the twists and turns that people may expect. And then it takes some more twists and turns. Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoyed the book. I'm wondering what would be your final word for those who are kind of on the fence on picking, picking it up and taking a dive deep. What would you say to them? I would. People to see an amazing, charismatic woman, but I also think that they will enjoy immersing themselves in a black world of the 1920s. One of the things that has been really gratifying to me is that people tell me they enjoy the read. Now, for a writer, that means a lot. So friends of mine who are historians who did blurbs, I appreciated that friendship. But I have actually gotten some random comments and videos and reels of people saying, I couldn't put that book down. I got an email from somebody I don't even know who started off saying, Dear Ms. Bundles, how dare you keep me up all night when I have to go to work in the morning. So I think people will find that it is a good read. And, they can also listen on audible. I recorded. I loved it. I loved your audible version. That must have taken you quite some time to do as well. Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, you are. You're an audio person. You know, it is. About. About five days in the audio booth. But because I had worked in television news for so long, for 30 years, and about 20 of those years as a producer, I was usually the one who was directing the correspondent in the editing room. And so I just had to smile throughout the process because I said, you know, this is payback for me. Making somebody redo their track, but it was fun to do Thank you. And I appreciate you and I appreciate your time and I hope you enjoy yourself today and, throughout the rest of the, the book, tour in toying, telling people about your book. Thank you, a' lelia Bundles, for joining us on The Color Between the Lines. Thank you. That's it for this edition of The Color Between the Lines. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe and also subscribe to my newsletter, where I share more insights about how you can use storytelling to generate success in your own life and business. I'm Esther Dillard.