Change Agent Leadership

The top ten mistakes leaders make. Book review with author Dr. Hans Finzel

• Jonathan Hankin

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What are the biggest mistakes leaders make—and how do we avoid them?

In this episode of Change Agent Leadership, Executive Coach Jonathan Hankin sits down with bestselling author and global leadership expert Dr. Hans Finzel to unpack the timeless lessons from his book, The Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make. With over two decades leading international teams and equipping leaders across five continents, Dr. Finzel brings practical wisdom, personal stories, and hard-earned insights every leader needs.

Whether you’re a seasoned executive or a first-time manager, this conversation will challenge your mindset, sharpen your leadership skills, and help you lead with humility, clarity, and purpose.

▶️    Watch full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/JuULZnpE2gM

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▶️ Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Change Agent Leadership

00:40 Meet Dr. Hans Finzel

02:03 The Reluctant Leader

07:03 The Top-Down Attitude

15:34 Balancing Tasks and People

22:27 The Pitfalls of Micromanagement

29:18 The Power of Humility in Leadership

30:27 The Importance of Communication

31:04 Challenges in Communication for Leaders

33:18 Effective Listening and Leadership

34:56 Key Principles to Avoid Communication Chaos

40:52 Handling Criticism and Conflict

43:13 Preparing for Future Leadership

47:30 Cultivating Future Leaders

54:57 Final Thoughts on Leadership

 

Topics We Cover:

• The 10 most common leadership mistakes (and how to overcome them)

• Why pride is the root of poor leadership

• The trap of micromanagement—and how to delegate with trust

• How to balance people work and paperwork in today’s distracted world

• Why communication chaos breaks teams (and how to fix it)

• Emotional intelligence, servant leadership, and creating healthy team culture

• Preparing the next generation of leaders

• What to do when it’s time to let go and pass the baton

 

Featured Guest: Dr. Hans Finzel

• Author of The Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make (translated into 25+ languages)

• Former president of WorldVenture (served in over 65 countries)

• Global speaker, teacher, and founder of HD Leaders

• Learn more: https://hansfinzel.com/


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Don’t miss this powerful, humble, and incredibly practical conversation.

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Jonathan

Welcome to another episode of Change Agent Leadership, the podcast where we grow, challenge ourselves and lead with greater purpose in connecting to changes in the world. Today we're diving into a conversation. Every leader needs to hear the top 10 mistake leaders make and how to avoid them. Whether you're a seasoned executive or stepping into your first leadership role, it's easy to get off track. We all can lose focus on our own development, avoid tough conversations or question, our ability to lead through uncertainty, but how we navigate these moments and reflect. Reset and refocus not only shapes the people we lead, it also deeply impacts our families, our teams, and ourselves. Today's guest is Dr. Hans Finzel, who wrote the book, the Top 10 Mistakes Leaders Make, and just a little bit about, uh, Dr. Finzel. He's a successful author, speaker, and trusted authority in the field of leadership. For 20 years, he served as president of. of International nonprofit World Venture, working in over 65 countries, Han Speaks, writes and teaches practical leadership principles. He's actually written 11 books, including the one we're gonna talk about today. His international bestseller, the Top 10 Mistakes Leaders Make, having Trained Leaders on Five Continents in his career, his book has been translated to over 25 foreign languages. Hans is a graduate of Columbia International University, Seminary, and Fuller School of International Studies where he received his doctorate in the field of leadership. Today he serves as president of HD leaders and teaches consults and speaks globally all things leadership. So welcome Dr. Finzel to the podcast.

Hans

Thank you, Jonathan. Great to be on today. Exciting.

Jonathan

Yeah, I really appreciate your book for several reasons. One being that the beginning you highlight several realities that leaders are facing be, but maybe aren't willing to verbalize. So I just would like you to kind of dive into that. Many times leaders are. Willing, but not seeking leadership. You know, people tell them, Hey, it's time for you to step into leadership. And so you, you mentioned about being a reluctant leader. How has that played into the top 10 mistakes that leaders make?

Hans

Yeah. I find especially in the the ministry world, that a lot of people don't necessarily want to step up into leadership, but they need to. And, uh, and then if you deal with the whole world of volunteers, that's a whole, in churches, that's a whole nother layer of, you know, you're not actually paying these people to be leaders, but you need them to step up. So I find, uh, I'm a huge fan of Moses and, uh. I wrote one of my books just on the top 10 leadership commandments about lessons I learned from Moses. I think he was the most reluctant leader in the Bible, and he kept giving God all these excuses why he was the wrong choice, and, and I hear that all the time from people, you know, no, I'm not the best choice. I love people who say that, right? Because to me there's a humility there when people say, oh, you can find somebody better than me. No, the reason Moses was chosen was because of very particular attributes that God said, you know, culturally, he's the right fit, leadership wise, he's got the right gifts. You know, he's bilingual. On and on it went. So yeah, I think. Some of the best leaders don't wanna lead, but we need to mentor them into leadership.

Jonathan

Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer. You're right. Moses had lots of examples. I'm not eloquent in speech, all of those different things and yet, uh, just looking for people that are willing to lead and use, and I think we have to recognize that you talk about that throughout the book, you know that that leads to, you know, many people because especially in nonprofits, many people are put in leadership positions. And you mentioned this in your book, kind of, they wing it. You know, not because they've been taught, but, uh, to lead effectively, and I think that's still true today. do you think that's gotten better or worse in different situations in leadership where people recognize it quicker that people are winging it, or is it still the kind of the Yeah, they'll figure it out eventually. What have you seen the, like, the problems you mentioned in the introduction on page nine? Is that still true?

Hans

I think it is still true and, and the reason I say people wing it is a lot of times people, you think about how do people get into leadership? Sometimes they volunteer, but many times they're just appointed or they're asked whether there's a. Elder in the church or uh, whatever. I've seen it in government and education. All of a sudden this teacher becomes the principal because nobody else was around. And oftentimes they don't really have any leadership training. I. If you're gonna be an airline pilot, you have to have training. If you're gonna be a brain surgeon, you have to have training if you're gonna be a leader, no training is required. And so that's why I say a lot of times people just think, I'm gonna wing it. I'm gonna try to do my best. I'm gonna follow my, follow my natural instincts. Yeah. My list here, um, of why, uh, the problem, uh. Today's leaders, they replicate the poor habits they saw in others. We lead as we were led.

Jonathan

Yep.

Hans

I had my first job when I was a teenager. I worked for a terrible boss. He was the manager of the store. I was a truck delivery driver and he, he was the laziest guy I ever ran into, and his philosophy was only work when the boss is around. If he's not around, we can just goof off. Okay. So that was my first big model of leadership and I, and I. Fortunately, I said to myself, no, that doesn't seem right. That doesn't seem ethical.

Jonathan

Yeah.

Hans

do replicate the poor habits we see in others. And many people just, uh, they lack formal training and, and they just fall into it. And of course, uh, Jonathan, I think one of the biggest problems that we'll get to in a moment is pride.

Jonathan

Yeah.

Hans

sometimes people think they know how to lead well when they really don't.

Jonathan

Yeah, and I think you hit a key point there. You know, I've been coaching for a while and leading, uh, for a long time, not as long as you, but I've been leading for a while and I think, you know, you're right. The pride of we all at times recognize, man, I might be in over my head, I. Yeah, willing to admit that and say, how did I get here? And what's the next step to get out of this hole I'm in who can help me? And I really appreciate that in the book, you, you dive into the 10 areas, but then you also give help. So let's jump into that. So you talk about, uh,

Hans

Sure.

Jonathan

the 10 mistakes Leaders make, we can't cover them all today. Um, but the first one you talk about chapter one, the top down attitude, and you actually say. is the most common mistakes leaders make. Um, yeah. Talk. Is that still true? I think it can be true. talk about that and where you see that show up.

Hans

Uh, as a side note, I've made all these people ask me, have you made all these mistakes, Hans? I thought, well, I've made probably a a thousand.

Jonathan

Yes.

Hans

chose the top 10. Yes, I'm an expert on these mistakes. I've made them all. Uh, so, you know, na, I always say, if you do what comes naturally. You'll be a bad leader because naturally we are self-centered

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

and we're selfish, right? I mean, think about children. Do you have to teach them to fight or, it's mine. It's mine. You know, yesterday, last night, I was with some of my grandchildren and I was serving them up ice cream and everybody's me first. Me first. I said, you guys are so selfish.

Jonathan

Didn't have to.

Hans

We don't ha. No, you don't teach people to be selfish. So if you say, I'm just gonna do what comes naturally, you're gonna, it's gonna be about me. And isn't it heartbreaking when you run into leaders and it's all about them and they think everybody should serve them and that because they are the boss, they think they're the smartest. You know, they're the most gifted and everybody should serve them. That's what I call the top down attitude. It's the opposite of what the Bible teaches. Servant leadership. I think the best kind of leadership is bottom up. I, I'm not on top of this pyramid and everybody's serving me. I'm carrying them all on my shoulders and I wanna serve them because I really believe if I make my. My team's successful, I'll be successful. That's not a new concept, but it's a very important principle.

Jonathan

No, it's a very important principle and one reason I wanted to have you on with your book was, you know, we've gone through, uh, generations keep coming with people and leadership development has changed over the

Hans

I.

Jonathan

I've recognized with several of my current clients and past clients that they've brought up several of'em, millennials and different age groups. This just wasn't modeled for them, like even to ask. And so yeah, the part of this is just the awareness of, yeah, we all have pride. It's in every human being and it's recognizing that, right? Where does it come from? Who's teaching me the right things? yeah. And so you talk about in your book, you know, uh, for a new leader to pay close, close attention, nor to fall, they don't wanna fall into the trap of pride. You know, I've personally found that I lead. top down leadership when I'm stressed out. Right. You talk about that in the book when we have less margin. So, um, I've had this question recently, I'm just gonna throw it out in a general tie to this first chapter is, you know, new leaders, especially people in their, um, say their 20 late twenties, thirties, forties. They're, they have a whole different mindset, a whole different perspective of leadership, even in the church or in the business world. How does this affect them? Because when they're getting stressed, they're just shutting down and they're using their authority. So what would be some tips or thoughts you have to help them when they're in those crisis modes? You know, I use the phrase a lot, emotional intelligence. They need to be more emotionally aware, like when that happens, like, let's, let's highlight, okay, I'm, I'm triggered. Why am I triggered? And all of that. Any thoughts to this? What do you think affects that? Is it really part of it? The top down and just the pride and not willing to pause? Any insights there?

Hans

I do think a lot of the young generation, generation Z and even, um, some of the millennials are, it's actually interesting. I think some of them are afraid to be top down.

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

They're too passive and too,

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

oh, you know, I don't want to assert myself. Because I don't, I think we ought to lead as a group, so there's a real fine balance there.

Jonathan

that's true.

Hans

Sometimes we need to be more aggressive in our leadership and definitive'cause. I, I really do believe, Jonathan, that, you know, if you look at the Bible, the story of the Bible from cover to cover, God uses leaders, men and women to accomplish his task on earth and people need to step up. And I've seen in the younger generation some, it's a, it's a delicate balance. You do need to step up, but not with a bunch of pride.

Jonathan

Yeah. No, I, I appreciate that. I think you hit a key thing. When I read this book, I was thinking, you're talking extremes, right? This is what you don't want to do the

Hans

Yes,

Jonathan

but you can make a mistake on the other side. So you can be top down, make a mistake, or you can be no, top down and make a mistake. It's like if you don't

Hans

yes,

Jonathan

up. So you gotta find

Hans

yes.

Jonathan

ground and find that balance.

Hans

Yeah. And I think, uh, you asked me, uh, is it still true? This top down, why? And I wrote down three words, ego, pride, and narcissism

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

is, uh, boy, have you ever wa have you ever encountered narcissistic leaders? I mean, we have'em in government, we have in education, we have them. Uh. All over the world in ministry, in churches, and again, it's that pride that gets in the way where you think I'm the most important person in the room I had. I had some great failure in my journey as the leader, and I had to make the conversion to me, from me to we. And I remember a guy coming into my office, I was the leader, and he said, Hans, I just don't like working with you because for you, it's all about you.

Jonathan

Wow.

Hans

You know, it's all about your career and your books. You're writing and, and your agenda. And I don't feel like you really care about me or about us, man. It just crushed my heart. And you know what? They were right and I realized, oh my gosh, I'm on this journey about me and my career and I need to shift to we, not me. And that, that was a huge, a huge growth. Uh, journey in my life.

Jonathan

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, Hans. That's a very personal moment there. I mean, I, yes, I've worked for those types of leaders and you know. think this is true. Um, nobody starts off that way. We might start with the pride. You mentioned your three words. The last one was narcissism. It starts with we all have pride. We don't all start, start off narcissistic, I don't think, but if we don't get checked, right? You talk about that in the book. If we don't get checked, if we don't have people speaking into our lives as unfortunately, maybe fortunately that person talked to you, hopefully in a good way, wake up call. But if we're just in a echo chamber. We're gonna continue down that path and we're gonna be a poor leader. And the, the model isn't going to shift. It's gonna be a pyramid and it's never gonna be an upside down pyramid.

Hans

I'm glad you mentioned emotional intelligence, eq, because I'm a huge fan of that concept and I always say EQ is so much more important than iq.

Jonathan

Yep.

Hans

And when I interview people to work for me, I. I wanna know about their emotional intelligence and their people skills. Sometimes the smartest people are not the best people for your team.

Jonathan

I, I agree. I'm laughing'cause I just did a video on the seven. non-emotional, intelligent people make. And, um, I was thinking, and I, we've all done some of them from time to time. You know, it's, the focus is on us instead of others and that, but I I, it reminded me as you just mentioned, narcissism. Yeah. I, I did have a boss, um, not my current one if he's watching the video later, but I did have a boss who was, and key was, he was so smart. I'm not joking. He was probably one of the smartest people I've ever met. Uh, just an inventor. Awesome. Couldn't keep people on his company to save his life. Um, and just didn't have that emotional intelligence, just bulldoze people. So yeah. I appreciate that. Let's, that's a good segue into the next one. Talk about, uh, chapter two, putting paperwork before people probably, you know, that's emails, that's everything, right? What do we put before people? As with all of these, it takes intentionality to manage one's time so that people are the priority and not the task. And I mean. it's easy as leaders, you know, I lead other, a lot of people I work with, sometimes people can appear to be in the way of progress. Um, so could you talk a little bit about how to balance the work? You talk, you actually call it people work, so I love that phrase'cause you unpack that a little bit.

Hans

Yeah. And, and honestly there are some of us that are task oriented people and there's some of us that are people oriented people. So this is probably, uh, a shout out to all of you who are task oriented, who live by lists. You know, I live by list this morning. I've been married, by the way, this week we were celebrating our 50th wedding anniversary. And, uh. Thank you and, uh, I'm an old guy, but we got married when we were 10,

Jonathan

I I was gonna

Hans

but, but we, yeah, so this morning my wife got really hurt by me because I get up. I start going through my list for the day, checking things off, and she, she felt like I just bowled right over her because she's not been feeling well. And

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

you don't care. All you care about is your lists. Well, I am list oriented and I've had to learn to be people oriented and to lay aside my list. So task oriented people, when somebody comes into their space, they view it as an interruption. If you're people oriented and somebody walks into your office, you're, oh, exciting. You know, and, and I measure the success of my day by how many things I checked off my list. I'm pure German and that's probably part of my problem, but, but people oriented, folks say, you know, how many people did I have an encounter with today? And my wife is so people oriented. We've, I've been all over the world. And I remember when I took her to Africa, she loved Africa. She said, I love the African people because they don't wear watches.

Jonathan

That's

Hans

It's just event to event to event. Not. Not schedule. And so I think we have those of us who are task oriented. We have to learn in the end, leadership is about people work. It's not about, uh, used to be, it was paperwork. Now the big challenge is our smartphones. You know, sitting in a meeting instead of focusing on the person, you're focusing on your device, uh. Social media, email, you name it, all that stuff can distract us from just focusing on people.

Jonathan

Yeah, and it's so pervasive, right? I think that's the key. Is it all of these, and I'm just gonna say, I've said it once. I'll probably say it again. All of your 10 points here, if we want to overcome these challenges, these mistakes, all of them take intentionality, right? Leadership development takes intentionality. You mentioned at the beginning where you can have a, a non, a reluctant leader, but they're in a position. But if they wanna develop and become the leader, they have to be intentional. And I think that's so true today. There's so many distractions and people, people have a hard time balancing. Prioritizing distractions. And so, yeah, I would love to get your thoughts on that. And what I mean by that is, you know, I, I saw, uh, just a quick snippet by Simon Sinek did a, a video on cell phones. And, know, when you're talking to somebody in a meeting, 90% of the time, the cell phone's on the table. Now if you're good, it's upside down. So that's, that's good. If better if it's upside down. the truth is the cell phone is the center of this conversation. If it's on the table, it's, it's the center. But if it's out of view, how would you advise or any thoughts that you've learned over the years, just in general to help us? You know, people work and how to prioritize. Has it been, you know, how have you made adjustments from your lists but allowing people to interrupt? Is it time blocking? Is it just any general thoughts you might have about that's helped you grow and develop that might help listeners in that area?

Hans

Yeah. First piece of advice, put it in your pocket. I, I, uh, I have meetings all the time with people, and now one of our challenges, many people don't work in offices anymore. They're remote, but they still, uh, I. Unfortunately a lot of Zoom meetings, but

Jonathan

Yep.

Hans

I love it when I meet somebody at a coffee shop and we're gonna talk for an hour about whatever, and I, their phone's nowhere to be seen,

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

right away my respect meter goes up. This person has enough EQ to put their phone in their pocket and have it muted and to realize. Right now, this is what I'm supposed to be doing for an hour or whatever, being with this person, and it's more important than anything that comes to my, so put it in your pocket. That's my first piece of advice.

Jonathan

Yeah.

Hans

Uh, if you work in an office, uh uh. I had another person tell me in my office, I had a big, beautiful office and I built this huge building here in Colorado and unfortunately, the architect designed my office to be at a one end of the building and it was kinda remote. And I, I had some people tell me, you know, Hans, you're just always hiding out in your office. We don't see you. And they were right because what am I doing in my office? I'm getting my tasks accomplished. And I had to learn that the old principle that I heard years ago, uh, management by wandering around and I had to realize

Jonathan

Yeah.

Hans

morning in the middle of the morning, I would just wander around the building. Stop in cubicles, stop at all, just talk to people. And then in the afternoon I'd do it again. So management by wandering around is really important. Uh, don't just sit in your office and get your stuff done, because if you're a leader, the people are your most important priority. So those a couple of tips.

Jonathan

I thank you. I appreciate that. You're right. And the problem, the challenge is people don't realize is the people are your most, your valuable asset. And when you lose your people, you now have to do everything and, and you're having it, you're just, you're shooting yourself in the foot, so to speak. So I can appreciate that. Yeah. Well, let's move on to, I'm gonna jump to chapter six. You call it dirty delegation, refusing to relax and let go. Um, micromanaging is a problem not just for new leaders, but for many seasoned leaders as well. It's a, it's a real stressor challenge for employees. You talk about this being the cardinal sin of leadership. Can you elaborate on that?

Hans

Yeah, I have a bunch of YouTube videos, uh, and if you wanna look up, my most popular one is called Five Signs. You're a Micromanager. If you just go to YouTube and search my name, you'll find all my videos, but the most watched. And most commented on is the one five signed your micromanager. And the comments are so sad, it's like I'm their, their counselor and they're pouring their heart out to me about this horrible I. Micromanaging boss. It's just heartbreaking. That's why I say it's the cardinal sin. And you'd think after all the years and all the books and the John Maxwell's and the, you know, all the people that have taught about good delegation, that people would get a clue. But it's very natural to be a micromanager. And the reason is lack of trust. You think you can do it better yourself. You're impatient. You know, it takes time to delegate. Well, I don't have the time and I know I can get this done better, and if I have assigned a task to somebody, I'm probably looking over their shoulders, making sure they do it my way.

Jonathan

Yep. Yeah.

Hans

So there's, uh, so micromanagement. I don't think there's anything that discourages workers more than micromanaging. So, uh, I didn't mention this, uh. I don't think I mentioned this chapter I might have, but in some of my other books I mentioned what I call the four Questions Every Follower Asks, and this is so important. The four questions are, number one, what am I supposed to do? I. Number two, will you let me do it?

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

Number three, will you help me if I need help? And number four, will you tell me how I did, you know, will you give me good feedback? You know, uh, Patrick Lencioni, who wrote a. A book, the Three Signs of a Miserable Job. One of the three signs of a miserable job is lack of feedback. I have no idea how I'm doing. People want feedback, so what am I supposed to do that's cleared instructions about the job. Number two, will you let me do it? That's about job ownership. Uh, years ago, I, I worked, I've been all over the world and I remember the first time I went to Russia back during the, it was still, uh, the Soviet Union and I went on this tour in Moscow. And, uh, people were saying, why do you Americans hate us so much? Why do you wanna bomb us? And we're like, we don't hate you. It's just government propaganda. But they were saying in America, half the people are homeless and they live on the streets and there's nothing to eat here in Russia. Everybody has a job. And we thought to ourselves, everybody had a job, but nobody worked.

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

Because when the government controls everything and everybody works for the government, uh, there's no pride of ownership. And that's, I've thought about so many times, the pride of ownership in a job is, will you let me do it? Will you let me have a piece of the action? Will you let me contribute to, to what we're doing? And I'll feel great about it. But if you're just gonna micromanage me every step of the way, I have no ownership. So, what am I supposed to do? Will you let me do it? Will you help me when I need it? There's a little side lesson there. Don't be a the kinda leader who treats your followers like energizer bunnies, put in the batteries, send them off and forget about'em. I also have that tendency, I trust people too much and I realized they do need contact with me. Will you help me when I need it? And finally, will you let me know how I did?

Jonathan

No, those are great. Thank you for sharing those four. I mean, the second one there, will you. second one you had reminds me that, you know, everybody wants to contribute, right? Everybody wants to add value. human being, every human being wants to add value and in some way, and they wanna be recognized for that value. so what you're doing is you're clarifying that and giving them a point to come back. So if it doesn't happen, they can ask questions, you know, appears that you're not helping me or whatever. So I, I appreciate that. What you're doing to me is your opening dialogue, right? And that's what we need. We don't

Hans

Yes.

Jonathan

your list to do, and I'm gonna make sure you do it my way. I'm actually going to help you and model that, and I think what you're doing is you're, you're actually sharing kind of the blueprint for culture that would lead to more change throughout the organization if, when those things happen. So those are great.

Hans

Yeah. And, and I, and it's, it's really a blueprint for developing leaders, because remember, the ultimate job of a leader is to work themselves out of a job and to develop other leaders around them. And, uh. This is the way you mentor is by being a good delegator, and they'll make mistakes, and that's a great moment where you can speak into them about here's what went wrong, here's what went right, but we have to develop the people around us. And the only way we can develop people and help them grow is by good delegation.

Jonathan

I agree, and I just would say my last comment on this, unless you have something else, is what I learned, fortunately not to the, not too early, early on in my leadership, but I learned several years ago is, it or not, I. Many people can do a job way better than I can. They're actually more gifted than I am. They actually are more creative. They can think differently. They might even do it quicker. It won't be like I do it, that's okay. And I real just, you know, someone told me once, Jonathan, if they can do it, 80% as good as you can. Let'em do it. let them run with it. You can check in, agree that you know you're gonna talk about it. And by doing that, I got actually got more margin. Um, I got better results because I got more creativity that I never would've had. And they got energized because they got to do things and speak into it and have a touch on it. So I do see it as part of the leadership, you know, that whole development. Yeah.

Hans

Yeah, you remember, uh, Ronald Reagan, one of my favorite leaders in American history, had that sign on his desk. It's amazing what a man or a woman can accomplish if they don't care who gets the credit. I. That's exactly what you're talking about. I don't care if somebody does it better than me. That takes humility to say, I don't have to do everything. I don't have to control everything. I know people would come to me sometimes, say, did you know this happened or this happened? I said, no, I wasn't aware of that. Well, how can you not be aware of every single thing going on in your global organization? I said, I don't need to. My job is to mentor the leaders and the team around me, not to control every single thing. So it, again, it takes humility to be the kind of leader you mentioned who you surround yourself with, brilliant people, and you turn'em loose and let them work.

Jonathan

Yep. No, we, I could talk on that one for a long time. I agree. And I just say

Hans

Me too.

Jonathan

on, you touch on this later in the book, in chapters nine and 10 about passing on information. We'll talk about that. But that's so key is we're not all gonna be here forever. And you know, we don't want people reinventing the wheel'cause they may reinvent it the wrong way. And so we wanna pass on what information we can and let them use it. So let's talk about the, uh, moving on to chapter seven. You call it communication, chaos. Um, and I'm not gonna disagree, it's your book. You put chapter one as your most important. I would say this is, for me, I see this as the top mistake today. I see leaders make communication is either take it for granted. In essence, they wouldn't say this, but leaders think others can read their minds. Um, or, communication is just assumed. Or if I can use as little words as possible, they'll fill in the blanks with the right words. I've never had that go well. So why is communication such a challenge for leaders? You talk about it in your book, so just could you unpack that for us?

Hans

Yeah, and I learned this as a young leader when I was working for a man who was so very gifted, but a terrible communicator. He, he thought we learned, we knew everything by some kind of magical osmosis from his brain to our brain that.

Jonathan

Yeah,

Hans

We knew everything. When we knew nothing, we were in the dark and we were desperate for. People are desperate to know what's going on in the organization. Uh, so my principle is never assume anybody knows anything and over communicate by a factor of 10 constantly. So, uh. Yeah. When people are left in the dark, what? What do they naturally do? You know, it's interesting. They naturally go negative.

Jonathan

Mm-hmm.

Hans

You notice that

Jonathan

Yep.

Hans

they will think the worst, they will think negative. They will think, oh my goodness, we're in, we're gonna go out of business. Everything is gloom and doom if you don't keep them, uh, appraised of what's going on. So, yeah, uh, it is a big problem. You're right. Uh, and I think a lot of leaders don't realize how much of responsibility they have to communicate.

Jonathan

Hmm. I think you're right. And I think, you know, you talked about the, um. You know, just people go negative. Uh, that's our general thing. I mean, we're the, you know, we're just talking facts. The truth is we all have pride. We're born with that. We all tend to go negative. That's part of our nature. Um, even if we want to be the, we might have a positive hope there, but we tend to go negative. So in communication gaps, people fill in the blanks and they usually fill it in with a

Hans

Yes.

Jonathan

because. you know, uh, I think as our listeners know, has usually the most information available and it filters down from there. And so two or three levels down, can assume they know some of what we're talking about, but usually they don't. And so they're filling it in with a void, based on rumors. And so just that clear communication is so important. You talk about effective leaders are avid listeners. What, uh, what are your thoughts on that for today and how just I know it's important still today. Um, when you say avid listeners, what are you referring to there?

Hans

Well, I, um, the book that I wrote as a sequel to this book is called The Top 10 Ways to Be a Great Leader, and in that book I. The very first chapter is, uh, the book has, is the based, there's a, a principle for each of the letters in the word leadership, and the L in leadership stands for listen and learn. The two most important words in the leader's vocabulary, if you don't listen, you can't learn. And if you're not the kinda leader that will learn, uh, then you're a, you're a top down dictator, right? Because you think you know all the answers. So. Uh, to me listening, the reason God gave us two ears and one mouth is so we would listen twice as much as we speak. And another comment, a complaint I get from my listeners and my readers other than my boss, is the micromanager. What do we hear all the time? My boss just won't listen.

Jonathan

Yep.

Hans

It's painful because why are they so hurt about the fact their boss won't listen? The boss won't listen to my contribution, my feedback, my ideas, right? They think they know all the answers, so that's why I just say the best leaders are avid listeners.

Jonathan

No, I appreciate that you put a list at your book, uh, page 1 46, you have 11 key principles to help avoid communication, chaos. I'll have those listed in the show notes. Um, but I, I'm just gonna ask you if you had to pick three for somebody today, so you've got a. leader or a, uh, a quote unquote unwilling leader that they want to lead, but they're just, they've been put into a position. What, what are the top three, two, or three that you would say focus on first? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Hans

I do, uh, uh, first one is the actual first one on the list. Have FaceTime with your leaders long before Apple invented FaceTime. I use this expression all the time. There's no substitute for FaceTime, uh, because 90% of communication is nonverbal and, and. I tell people all the time, never try to resolve conflict through texting or through email. It only gets worse,

Jonathan

Yep.

Hans

uh, because 90% of communication is nonverbal and they can't see your expressions in your emotions. So have face time with your leaders.

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

You have to spend time with them. Uh, I like to say, uh, avoid the great surprise. Don't ambush people who are not doing their job well. Be honest. I. I hate this. I've seen people fired without any warning, without, I call it the ambush. Why didn't you tell me you were disappointed? Why did you build up months and months against me and then fire me without a honest conversation? That's not fair there.

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

And then I mentioned management by wandering around. I already touched on that. And then finally, I, I gave four instead of three. But practice hot communication, honest, open, and transparent. I, I'm a huge believer in hot communication, honest, open, transparent. Don't play games with people and I. Most, a lot of leaders are conflict avoiders, Jonathan, and so they won't be open and honest'cause they don't want to make people feel bad. A lot of leaders are people pleasers and that's not fair.

Jonathan

Right.

Hans

have to give them the bad news as well as the good news.

Jonathan

No, I appreciate that. I, I think tying the avoid, the great surprise and practice the hot communication ties into what Kim Scott talks about radical candor, right? It's sharing empathy, but also being direct. Otherwise, they're just left to guess like, where do I stand? And one day there's the big surprise and nobody wins in that, right? That we all look bad, they feel disappointed, and, um, that doesn't go well. So. No, I appreciate that.

Hans

When we moved our operation here to Colorado from Chicago, we built the beautiful new headquarters for World Venture and we had some of our missionaries in Uganda. I remember they got so upset at me. They totally misunderstood my motives as a leader. Okay. And people do that. They will. They will attribute motives to a leader that are not true. I. And often they will attribute selfish motives to the leader that are not true. Why does that happen? Because of poor communication. It got so bad with that team. Uh, they would not read my emails. They would not, uh, they, they were actually about ready to quit as a team, our organization and, and my Africa director said, Hans, the only way you're gonna. Fix. This is by FaceTime. You're gonna have to fly to Uganda and sit down with these folks in their home and explain to them what, why you're building this building and what you're doing. And long story short, I did fly to Uganda and we had a wonderful weekend. And the first thing I did is I asked their forgiveness. I said, you know what? I let you down to the leader regardless. I. Of, of what I've been doing. You don't understand what I'm doing and you're hurt by what I'm doing, and you're confused and I apologize. Forgive me for not being the leader you need. I. And then I unpacked why we were doing what we were doing to, not because of my ego. I wanted a beautiful building, but because it was strategic for the future of the ministry. And at the end of the weekend, they asked my forgiveness for, uh, the way they were treating me in a nasty email they were sending me. And it was a beautiful healing moment, and it got resolved by FaceTime. By honest, open dialogue, so that was a huge life lesson for me.

Jonathan

Yeah. That's huge. Thanks for sharing that. You're right. And I think I would just say, you know, and you, unlike most leaders, many people would, obviously you receive some not so nice emails, probably your character, questioning your ability to lead.

Hans

Right?

Jonathan

We've all gotten

Hans

Yep.

Jonathan

Um, and of course, you know, you're right, texting and messaging, there's nothing behind it, right? There's, you can't read like it's

Hans

It doesn't fix it,

Jonathan

lock

Hans

right?

Jonathan

yelling at me like, what's going on here? I.

Hans

Yeah. Right.

Jonathan

Um, but the fact that you flew there and you didn't start with explaining, you started with being humble and that ties to the top down leadership, A top down leader would've said, so, I am the boss. Let me just explain to you what's happening and why it's happening, why you should get on board. And that never goes well. Um, people think it

Hans

No.

Jonathan

actually, I'm surprised the number of people that think that would work and it doesn't. Um, well, it, it works to get things done by yourself with low results, but if you want to grow a culture and be a real leader, it doesn't work. And so I appreciate that, um, process.

Hans

Yeah. Let me just say that being most leaders or say a lot of people get very defensive when they get criticized, right?

Jonathan

Yep.

Hans

Isn't that our natural reaction? When I'm a leader and, and my people are criticizing me, my first reaction is defensiveness and anger, and then. You just have to take a deep breath and say, now wait a minute. I need to learn because I have done something wrong when they so misunderstand me. It's not all their fault, and, and so you do have to take a deep breath. Don't answer that email right away. Take some time to digest it and to reflect and, and again, be humble. The, you know, peop sometimes leaders think it's a weakness to show humility. You know, I'm a strong leader. I'm not gonna

Jonathan

Yeah.

Hans

them any weakness. No. Uh, being humble and asking forgiveness and admitting I made a mistake, actually garners more respect from your followers. Right.

Jonathan

It does. Yes. I agree. I just want to co, I just want to say you hit, you touched on something that I've made this mistake so many times early as a leader, I would receive an email. Wasn't necessarily negative, but maybe it was poking a button or pushing a button or something, or I felt under the impulse like I need to respond now because it was a crisis, so to speak. In their minds it was a crisis, and mine it wasn't, and they thought I had failed some way, and so I need to respond. I used to respond immediately and that got me many times in trouble because. I responded out of necessity, not out of mindfulness and not out of pausing. So I really, for anybody listening, I just appreciate what you said there, which is so true. I've learned if I write an email really quick and it's fast, I need to stand up and go for a walk and not,

Hans

Yeah. All right.

Jonathan

read it and usually I either delete the email or it's down to one sentence. I mean, seriously. And when the one

Hans

Yeah.

Jonathan

when do you have time to talk? Because just, I get in trouble. I just, and so, yeah. Yeah. I know nobody else gets in trouble, but I get in trouble for that.

Hans

No. No, nobody else.

Jonathan

Well, we're gonna transition these last time into chapter 10, nine and 10. So nine was failure to focus on the future. Preparing yourself is later than you think. So I lo I like your quote. You said, if it works, it's obsolete. so you talk about creating vision and direction for the future is one of the primary responsibilities of leadership. Um, the leader must plan for the future. He or she must direct or head the team in developing organizational goals, plans, strategies that flow out of the purpose or vision statement. So, um, and you also mentioned, I, I know I'm saying a lot there, but the point here is you, you talk about. The consistent thing is change. Right. And um, my podcast title is Change Agent Leadership because if you don't lead change, it's outta control. It's gonna lead you. And so we change is coming at us. So could you speak into that and then I have a follow up question as well, but just what are your, where are we with that today about passing on the baton?

Hans

Uh, well, we could spend a whole podcast on the topic of change, and that's, I'm intrigued by the title of this, your podcast about, uh, leading change. Because when I became a CEO of a big international ministry, I. The reason they asked me to be the uh, president is'cause we were on a death spiral. We were dying, we were declining, we were shrinking. And I, they knew I am a change agent. And so they said, Hans, you need to come in and salvage this thing and turn it around. And I asked them, well, are you gonna support me when I start proposing change? Yeah, because, and I've seen a lot of boards make this mistake. They'll bring in a pastor, please turn the church around. Or they'll, uh, whatever ministry. But then they won't back up the change. Uh, because people hate change. Right? People resist change. Oh, we could spend a whole podcast on that topic of why people resist. Yeah. I'd love to, uh, people resist change for so many reasons. And so my board, I said I. I will only do this job if you back me up when I start proposing radical change. And they did. It was wonderful. I had the most fantastic board and we changed everything. The name, we changed the location. We moved out here to Colorado. We, we changed the board structure. We, oh my gosh, we, and, and I'm so glad that I had a board that backed me up through all that change. Did all the troops like it, all the. People who work for us, no, people don't. You know, people love their comfortable chair that they love to sit in, you know, their cozy little comfort zone. Don't take me outta my comfort zone, but the future we have to change. So that's why I make it such a big priority. Every effective leader today has to be a change agent

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

because, uh, the world is so different than it was even five years ago.

Jonathan

is.

Hans

Right.

Jonathan

It is.

Hans

And so, and then people get in the ministry and church world get nervous that you're gonna abandon our biblical moorings, our biblical principles. And I, I say, no, no, no, no. We're changing methodology. We're not changing our theology. You know, we're, we have to change how we do things, but we're not gonna change the fundamental bedrock of what we stand for.

Jonathan

No, I appreciate that. And I think that's the key and part of the ties into the communication, right? You have to communicate why you're changing, what you're changing, uh, the purpose and what is going to lead to. And you also, I think, have to define what you're not going to change, right? There are things that you're not going to change.

Hans

Yes.

Jonathan

because,'cause that's, if we don't define that, people will fill in the blank. Well, they didn't say they

Hans

that's right.

Jonathan

that, so I assume that's what they're going to change. I mean, it's just humans go negative. So.

Hans

And it's true. It's very true.

Jonathan

Um, so my, my last, one of my last questions here, well, I have a couple small questions for

Hans

I.

Jonathan

uh, let's cover this one. You know, I mentioned in my email to you, uh, Phoenix Seminary is gonna use your book as a textbook this year I. In developing leaders who develop leaders. Um, and of the questions that they sent in, because they're gonna start teaching us in August, was that in chapters nine, I'm gonna read the question. They emailed me nine and 10, paint a wonderful picture of handling, handing off the baton to a successor. And in doing so, they give. You give some excellent advice on how to come alongside someone else and encourage them to take the reins once you step down. So is obviously in this context for this class. As pastors, as a pastor, I'm often in a position of trying to cultivate and mentor other leaders who will serve alongside me in the context of the local church. I'm thinking specifically about lay elders and maybe even an assistant pastor. What specific advice would you give to pastors who need to encourage and cultivate the leadership gifts of those serving alongside them in the local church?

Hans

That's a lot of question right there

Jonathan

you, I mean, that

Hans

uh, let me give it.

Jonathan

You should be

Hans

No, I love, I love this. Uh, uh, by the way, I want to give a shout out to you at Phoenix Seminary who were, uh, taking this class on leadership and reading my book. Uh, I'm very honored that you're using the book and a big shout out to you. Go for it. Uh, I, I learned in my journey that no one is indispensable and all of us will eventually have to fade off the scene someday. And. I see a lot of leaders do more damage than staying too long, as opposed to leaving too soon. And, and I've seen leaders, uh, who are burned out, worn out, used up, but they won't let go because they're so afraid of retirement or what's next. And sadly, they don't finish well because they should have left sooner. So it's better to leave sooner than to stay too long. And how do you leave? I always had a practice of develop, having three people that I'm developing that can take my place if I get run over by a bus. And I would make every direct report to me. Um. Give me their list once a year when we had our annual review. Who were the three people you were cultivating to take your place that I can go to if you get run over by a bus tomorrow? And it was wonderful. One of the three men that I had cultivated eventually took my place and, uh, I'm gonna get to the answer. How do you encourage and cultivate the gifts in the people that you're developing? Not just to replace you, but again. Our job as leaders is to develop the leaders around us. But I was so thrilled that, uh, one of the men that I, uh, developed became my successor and is doing a fantastic job. He's doing a better job than I did probably, and I'm fine with that. Uh, so how can you encourage, you were asking specifically about, uh, in the local church? I would say three things. Take them with you. I've always practiced taking people with me that I am cultivating their leadership. I. I'm going on an errand, I'm going on an appointment. I would take people on, I traveled all the, I would take, uh, the young emerging leaders on trips with me all over the world. There's no better time to bond than to travel together. So, number one, take them with you, number two, and that you don't have to, it doesn't have to be a plane ride. It could be a, an appointment across town. Uh, number two, give them assignments and watch them. Here, I want you to do this and I'm gonna watch you. We're gonna see how you do. And number three, give them feedback. How did they do? So those are, uh, just some of my tips of how you'd cultivate those that you're trying to develop into leadership.

Jonathan

No, that's huge. Thank you. I think you know when your first one take them with you. I know for myself as a leader, I am where I am because people have mentored me and have shown the way some things I had to figure out because, uh, just the way it was. But anytime someone was able to, able to me model it for me, it gave me such a head start. Just set me, set me up for the next thing. And then it also cultivated energy and cultivated desire to grow in that area. Um, and other people I've mentored and coached, you realize, like you talked about, you'll find out soon enough if that interests them or not. I think that's what you're looking for, right? In your three things. Part of that is where are they? Are they engaged? Are they actually doing the tasks, and what's the follow up?

Hans

Right. I, I think it's really important to watch them and to see, and some people you think have a lot of promise won't, you'll realize as you spend time with them, they're not actually what I thought they were. But then other people will surprise you. Uh, they will shine and they will step up to the plate. And, uh, for those older, uh, leaders that might be listening to this podcast, I just want you to take to heart this lesson that, uh. In fact, another book that I wrote is called Launch Your Encore, how to Find Meaning and Purpose Later in Life. And for those of you who are hanging on when you need to let go, I just wanna encourage you that there is another chapter in your life. After you let go of that big leadership position, God is not gonna abandon you, and you might find a whole new avenue of, uh, significance that you never dreamed of. When I finally, um. Resigned. Retired from my position and turned it over to this young leader. I said, uh, I, I'd spent a whole day met, uh, coaching him on all my advice, actually wrote a paper. Here's all the, you know, I've been leading 20 years now. You're gonna be the leader. Here's all my advice and call me anytime you need me. Guess how many times he called me?

Jonathan

I am gonna go zero.

Hans

Never, never zero. And I think he probably threw that document in the trash can that I gave him. And my wife said, Hans, don't feel bad about that. That actually means you were, you did a good job. They don't need you. And I. It was so hard for a man

Jonathan

Hmm.

Hans

not to be needed, but we have to get over it and realize, okay, that chapter's over. And for me, I had to do what was best for the ministry, not what was best for me, and it was best for them, for me to move on to my next assignment.

Jonathan

Thanks for

Hans

Huge, huge lessons. Huge lessons.

Jonathan

I, I just will say, but what I hear you saying is your chapter in that position closed, but it wasn't a closure for your chapter in life. God had something else

Hans

No.

Jonathan

and he was preparing you for that, and you couldn't fully enter that until you had closure in another area. I think that's one part people miss is they

Hans

Exactly.

Jonathan

moves on to something else. I just wanna give you a final, any final thoughts or comments you have for emerging leaders? Um. For leadership, like

Hans

Yeah.

Jonathan

there.

Hans

I'll just finish with that L because I do believe, uh, people ask me, you know, leadership is so complicated and there's so many people say, what's the key to great leadership? What's the key? You know? Well, there is no key. There are, it's a complex thing and, and sometimes I feel like it's impossible to be a good leader because of people's expectations. If I had to boil it down to the most important characteristic of leaders that I respect and that I follow, it's humility. So let me finish with that. There is nothing greater than, and again, that's why I love Moses. If I could circle back to him. It says in the Bible, there was no more humble man on the face of the earth and the fact that he did not want to be, uh, the savior of the Israelites. Uh, was the very reason he was, uh, God, I think God had. He, by the way, he wasn't always humble. And I, I've been, I've had a lot of struggles with arrogance, especially as a young leader. But God broke him, took him to the back of the desert for his, what I call the BD degree, the back of the desert degree, where you get humbled. And so let me just finish by saying, listen and learn are the two most important words in the leader's vocabulary. And if you, uh. Cultivate, say, God, help me to be a humble leader. You'll be the kinda leader. People love to to follow.

Jonathan

Well, thank you so much. Great to have you on. I really appreciate your words of wisdom and I know our listeners will, will value this as well as they listen to it. So I just wanna say to everybody, thank you for listening this episode Added value to your day, hit like and subscribe, drop a comment, helps me grow this channel for you. You're also gonna see a link in the show notes. Dr. Al's book, his website, any information, the show notes we've talked about, some of the comments that'll be in the show notes. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Hankin, your change agent, coach. Keep questioning, keep growing and keep leading change..