Interview with Kadi Cole - How to Develop Female Leaders

In this episode of Change Agent Leadership, I sit down with author, speaker, and leadership consultant Kadi Cole to talk about her groundbreaking book, Developing Female Leaders.

With over 25 years of leadership experience—including as an executive director at one of America’s largest multi-site churches—Kadi brings research, clarity, and practical insight into a conversation many leaders struggle to have.

We explore:
• Why developing female leaders is essential for mission success
• The difference between “sticky floors” and “glass ceilings”
• How men and women approach leadership development differently
• Why defining leadership clearly is crucial
• The role of mentors, sponsors, and coaches (and why all three matter)
• How to give effective feedback to female leaders
• What churches need to do to build safe, thriving leadership cultures

Whether you’re a church leader, nonprofit executive, or corporate manager—this episode will give you the tools to elevate the female leaders around you and lead your culture forward with clarity and courage.


▶️ Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Change Agent Leadership
00:10 Meet Katie Cole: Leadership Consultant and Author
01:13 Katie's Early Leadership Journey
02:08 Challenges and Realizations in Leadership
05:19 The Concept of Sticky Floors
09:28 Theological Perspectives on Women in Leadership
16:32 Integrating Formation and Leadership Development
25:41 The Importance of Mentorship and Coaching
27:28 Mentorship vs. Sponsorship: Key Differences
29:04 The Role of a Coach in Leadership Development
31:05 Combining Mentorship, Sponsorship, and Coaching
34:50 Creating Safe and Inclusive Environments
41:55 Addressing Gender Bias in Performance Reviews
46:42 Shifting Church Culture for Female Leaders
50:53 Services and Advice for Emerging Leaders

Connect with Kadi Cole, access her books, or learn more about her services at https://www.kadicole.com

📘 Developing Female Leaders — available wherever books are sold.
 

Catch full episodes of video versions and other leadership videos on my YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Jonathan-Hankin

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Transcript

Jonathan 0:00

welcome back to another episode of Change Agent Leadership. Today we're diving into a conversation that every leader. Needs to have on their radar developing leaders, especially female leaders. And today I'm excited to have as a guest, Katie Cole, who wrote the book, developing Female Leaders with us today. And just a little bit information about her. She is a leadership consultant, author, and speaker with over 25 years of experience in organizational development. A former executive director at one of the one of America's largest multi-site churches. She specialized in helping churches. And organizations harness the leadership potential in both men and women. So it's not just women focused. Katie's passion is helping church leaders who want to do a better job developing the female leader talent in their congregation. She's written several books. Um, the one we're gonna talk about today is Developing Female Leader. She's also written sticky note leadership and Finding your Leadership voice in 90 days. And I hear you also read four books at a time. I'm not sure if that's helpful or not. So welcome to the podcast.

Kadi Cole 1:07

Thank you Jonathan so much. Thanks for having me on today.

Jonathan 1:10

Yeah, four books at a time. Maybe we'll tackle that in a little bit. So let's go ahead and jump in a little bit, give me some context, um, in your book, in your early years in leadership and how that has shaped you. Can you give the listeners a little bit of insights as to the why behind why you wrote this book?

Kadi Cole 1:30

Uh, well, sure. I mean, it's a, it's a big topic. I think as a female leader, uh, most of my life, I was really unaware of the challenges and some of the extra pieces that maybe I was navigating. Uh, and as I grew up, um. You know, in the, uh, eighties and nineties, leadership was kind of really coming on the scene. So I got invited to leadership camps in high school and definitely in college. And then as a young adult, I was really active in my church and there were a lot of, lots of talk about leadership. John Maxwell was on the scene, and so I just really responded to it. I felt like. I understood what that was. I was really interested in it. But then as I grew in leadership, both professionally and in volunteer roles in my church, I did start to see some disparities or notice that I was often times the only woman in the room or one of few women who were kind of leading in more forward ways. And I grew up professionally actually in nursing. And that is a very. Female oriented profession. I also worked in the VA system, so it was a lot of military women who ran that hospital. Uh, and so I really didn't understand the challenges of being sort of a, a, a minority female in a majority culture. In my early years, I just thought every role was open. I wanted to grow as a leader. I had all these wonderful, uh, female. Role models. Uh, but then, uh, several years later, as I, you know, grew in my career and got a master's degree, I got recruited to my church to work full-time in ministry. And the environment was just so different for women. It's a male, you know, male majority industry. And so my leadership took kind of a hit, which I took very personally. I didn. I didn't even consider the fact that, uh, maybe people were resisting me'cause I was a woman. It, I was very ignorant to that fact. I just thought I wasn't very good at leadership. Uh, and then as I started working with more churches. We started to really see this was holding a lot of churches back from their mission. They really didn't have enough leaders and most of them just did not have a lot of female leaders. And so that really spurred me on to research the topic to try to help these churches. And in the process I learned a lot about myself, my own leadership, my own biases around women in leadership that I probably even propagated. And uh, that's really why I wrote the book is I was like, gosh, we are. Especially as Christians who maybe grew up like me in more conservative environments. We are really not doing a good job, uh, maximizing the talents and gifts that God has given women, and I want to help, you know, make that better, uh, kind of across the theological spectrum. And there's a lot of different opinions on, uh, where those lines should be. But, um, in my research we're kind of bad at equipping women in all areas around the theology of this. And so I just want us to get better at making space and room for women to use their gifts in ministry and in the world.

Jonathan 4:21

No, I really appreciate that. I think the context, you know, obviously time has passed since you first entered ministry into where we are today. Hopefully things have gotten better. We can talk about that here in a little bit, but I really, I personally appreciate. The book I mentioned to you, I received it, um, several years, a couple years ago when it first came out. And I really helped me just kind of put some understand filters, you know, understand some of the dynamics that take place um, aren't even assumed'cause they're just not talked about. So let's

Kadi Cole 4:50

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 4:51

and let's move them forward. So I really appreciate you highlighting that. I felt in a very respectable, you know, honoring way to men and women, but let's actually have the conversation and go forward. So I appreciated that so much in your book. Um, so we're not gonna be able to go through everything. People should get the book and read it. Um, but we'll, let's highlight a few things. I know in the first chapter, you, you talked about your experience, you know, first time in the church and you thought it was about you. You mentioned that actually it wasn't'cause you were a woman. Um, you talk about, um, actually on page 11 about, you know, sticky floors.

Kadi Cole 5:24

Mm.

Jonathan 5:24

that down? I found that interesting that, that phrase you used in the book,

Kadi Cole 5:29

Yeah, so, uh, most of us have probably heard the phrase the glass ceiling, and that's describes these sort of invisible barriers that are more structural and organizational that keep women from advancing in leadership and other minorities sometimes. Uh, and they're, you know, they're glass so you hit'em and you don't really know you've hit'em. And we definitely have a lot of those in church and still in the marketplace. Uh, but the sticky floor is sort of the opposite. It's what keeps women. Stuck to the floor and prevents them from moving forward in leadership because of what they're saying to themselves. Those kind of dialogues and messages that they're saying to themselves in their own mind that keep them from applying for a promotion or keep them from taking a new job or taking a risk or trying something new. And we call it the sticky floor because it keeps you stuck to the floor. One of my favorite pieces of research about the topic, um, comes up with how men and women look at, uh. Job opportunities differently, like a promotion or a new job, or even in the context of church of volunteer role. Uh, when a guy looks at a job description, he tends to read through it and think, gosh, if I'm capable of doing about 60% of this job, I'm probably gonna get the job. You know, I'll fake it till I make it, or I'll Google it, but I'm gonna, you know, I'll probably get the job. I'm gonna be great at this job. I'll figure it out as I go. Uh, female leaders. On the other hand, women tend to look really differently at a job description when they read through. They wanna be good at a hundred percent of what's on the job, or they won't even apply for the role. So they do this little self-assessment and they're like, can I do every single one of these things perfectly from the first day? And if I can't, then I probably shouldn't even apply for the job. Which, uh, it's not even right or wrong. They're just so different. And, you know, as a leader. A lot of times people apply for jobs and they're not a good fit for this job, but you think about them for the next job or there's a better fit over here, or their, you know, their name comes to mind a year later when something does come up. And so what happens is the guy who's 60% confident goes for things a lot, gets a lot more opportunities, is on people's mindset. They're practicing going for interviews. They're learning all these skills simply by this kind of inbred confidence. Whereas this woman who's got this sticky floor where she feels she needs to be perfect, doesn't have any of those opportunities. And so leaders don't know about her. She's not on anyone's radar, and she stays kind of. Stuck and in the background. And so for leaders, that has a lot of implications for us. We really have to recruit women differently than guys because they're gonna hold back and judge themselves a lot harshly. We have a lot, especially anyone working in ministry, we have a lot as spiritual leaders. A lot of influence on how women view themselves. What they think they're capable of, and also really explaining to people what our expectations are when they start a job. It's very rare that anyone nails a new job that they've never done before. A hundred percent on the first day. We might need to take some time to explain this to some of our female leaders who are holding themselves to two high of a standard.

Jonathan 8:29

No, I can appreciate that. I mean, it's, and it's just a reminder, this book is developing female leaders, um, but it's for men and women, right? It's good for women to read and to understand, wait, is that me? Do I have, I, am I stuck on the floor here based on my beliefs, based on what's happened to me? am I holding myself back and how can others help? So it's for both men and women to read that. No, I appreciate your comment there. a lot of it is awareness, right? It's, it's awareness of where women are, what the perception is. Um, and it's not a, um, oh, we should do all of this differently. You go through that in the book, but it's highlighting what are holding some people back and making, it's about emotional awareness and some of that. It's also just being aware. You touch on that in, in chapter three, mind The Marketplace, which I'll get to in a second. But, um, you, one thing I appreciate speaking of, um, sticky floors and also. Uh, you talked about seek to understand. You talk about in chapter two, I thought you did a great job. You even mentioned in at the beginning, you know, um, people are all over the spectrum when it comes to beliefs, um, and what women should do or shouldn't do. And so I appreciate that you broke down all the different views. I don't, I don't know how many there were, there were a lot, um, detailed where people can stand in their views. And I appreciate that because it lets people know, oh, I'm here. Or then you can have the discussion of where is the church or where am I working? So I know it's important for everyone to know where they stand. My experience is that most leaders don't know where how to work through this. So why is it so hard for leaders to actually have the conversation of this is where the church stands, or this is where an organization, a nonprofit stands. And to actually say, well, where does each person stand? Or where does leadership stand?

Kadi Cole 10:15

Hmm.

Jonathan 10:16

to die? Who are we going to die on because I find the assumption is. The most extreme is what everybody supposedly believes, but it's not what everybody believes'cause it's not communicated. So a lot of times people are like, well, I assume everybody's on the extreme view of this. So any thoughts there for teams? Like they advice just that they struggle with that? How do they have that dialogue of finding where does the middle ground here?

Kadi Cole 10:45

It's a really great point. It is a loaded topic. It's challenging for a lot of different reasons. I think the top, um, pieces that are important to acknowledge, even as you kind of lean in or begin investigating this topic as a leader for yourself and the people you lead is, uh. It is a secondary theological issue. So, uh, there are some things that are primary issues that we all agree as Christ followers. You know, Jesus is the son of God. There's one way to heaven. You know, these are things that hold, that are the tenets of our face that, uh, let us know that we're connected on these primary issues. This issue around women in leadership. Now, not the value of women, not the importance, not partnership, not any of those things, but, uh, the roles of women in leadership in the church. Have some controversial, uh, sections of scripture that people who really love Jesus and really know their Bible disagree vehemently about it, but it, we've decided collectively this is a secondary issue, which means we don't have to break fellowship. We can agree to disagree. We can even be in the same church and have different views on this. We already do that around topics like. What's the right way to baptize? How often should you have communion? Uh, what are the, you know, what do people do about drinking alcohol? Like, these are secondary issues that many of us have fellowship and close, uh, community with each other, even in the same church and the same Bible study and on a church staff together and disagree on these. But we agree to agree on how we're gonna take the position as a church and we can support the view of the church. This topic is one of those topics, but because it's very personal to some people, um, it's especially personal to women because being told you're not allowed to do something or that you're not gifted in the way you think God has given you is a very personal, uh, and challenging area. And depending on our background or our experiences or the things we've been told about ourselves, it's not uncommon for women. My age and definitely older to be told that that leadership gift is actually sinful. You should not have ideas, you should not speak up. You're being bossy. So the very thing that God put in us to edify the body we've been told is a character flaw and a sin that we should confess. Well, that's very emotional and personal and when that starts to get trampled on or you feel like you have something to offer and you are rejected, that's very a d deep topic. So there's a lot of emotion for a lot of people around this topic. Um. So those two things really make it a hotbed. And then I think the third piece that's made it difficult is that, as we've talked about this theologically, um, since about the eighties, we've sort of, uh, run into this idea that there are two camps about women in leadership. Uh, people who are for women in leadership and people who are against women in leadership. And we even came up with terms of complementarian and egalitarian, uh, complementarian is a term that was didn't exist before the early eighties. So this is not something in our long-term church history. Uh, but we have really made it sort of this polarizing for or against topic. And that's why I take a whole chapter in the book to really say it's actually a much broader. Concept in that, uh, people are living this out in a variety of different ways. I actually talk about seven different sort of, uh, ways people practice this and the theological tenets behind it. And I'm just trying to get us out of this for or against binary mindset and be able to say, let's explore this together. Where are you at on the spectrum? Where am I at? Why do I believe that? Where do we wanna land together? It just gives a healthier dialogue, creates more space for women. And takes us from feeling like women leading is all bad or all good, uh, because it's just not that symbol of a concept.

Jonathan 14:23

No, I appreciate that and I, I think you're right. I think, um, I appreciate you started with, it's not a primary issue. This is not a primary issue. This is not a, uh, if you're a follower of Christ, this is not gonna get you in or out of heaven. Um. In my opinion, this is a second, I think it's actually a third issue, but it's, it's one of those, and so it's having the conversation if we don't have the conversation, everybody goes extreme. Whether they view one way or the other. I find people go to their extreme, what they were taught growing up, and so I appreciate the clarity. And I appreciated your perspective in that chapter, which is, here's all the options. You just need to figure out where you are and why, and are you willing to have the discussion as to why you're where you are and how does that affect leadership? I think that's what my takeaway

Kadi Cole 15:09

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 15:11

Um,

Kadi Cole 15:11

It was interesting, Jonathan, in our re Oh, I was just gonna add one thing. I, in our research for the book, uh, I interviewed a whole lot of different executive leaders and pastors, and, uh, tried, you know, surveyed thousands of women and just tried to get a really good handle on. Where people were living with this and how it's working. And what was so interesting is that in that theological spectrum from uh, let's just say complementarian on one side and egalitarian on the other, uh, we found churches in the Complementarian side, which we would assume would not have many women in leadership actually. There were many churches that had women thriving in all levels of leadership, including the senior leadership team, in which they didn't violate that theological viewpoint. And on the other side, we had, uh, churches in the egalitarian camp, which actually allow women to do every role, including senior pastor and elder, have almost no women in formal leadership roles. And so it really wasn't an indicator at all. Our theological viewpoint as to how good we were in supporting and harnessing the giftedness of women in our churches. It just was a area that tended to complicate the ability to talk about it.

Jonathan 16:16

It's almost like a flashpoint that we know is over there. Let's not go there, but we actually don't know what it means. And so I appreciate, again, I'm gonna, I recommend your book, so I think it's just important to have the conversations right and then live out what you believe and and help women move forward in leadership. Which ties to the next topic I want to go into, which is chapter four. You said, you know, one of your. Keys there is integrate formation and leadership development. Um, I'm gonna actually read it on my screen here. You had a quote, I'm not gonna quote every page of your book, but on page 61, you had defining leadership your three points of leadership is not a title position, it's ability to influence someone for change. Leadership is a spiritual gift that is given directly by God to build up his church. And leadership can be a learned skillset. I agree with all those. Um, I think a lot of people maybe don't, but I do. Do you, do you do groups that you work with struggle with this definition in regards to applying it to men and women? Like do they see it as or is it like, well, yes, that's true here, but it's not true here? Yeah. Just thoughts on that.

Kadi Cole 17:26

Sure. Well, I think that's one of the challenges is we use that term leadership to mean all three of those things. Sometimes when we talk about it, we're talking about that Romans 12 or one Corinthians 12, uh, gift of leadership. That's God's anointing. It's this expansive gift. It has huge ripple effects in kingdom ways. Sometimes though we're just trying to learn the skill of leadership.'cause we're managing a team for the first time and we wanna set an agenda and cast a vision. And then sometimes we're talking about leadership as influence and I'm causing someone to do something and we wanna give credit where credit is due. So this is where we talk about like stay-at-home moms are leaders. Absolutely. They have an incredible influence, but that's not the same kind of leadership as a. Senior pastor anointed with that Romans 12 gift of leadership who has a big church that's growing rapidly and they're expanding and taking on kingdom things globally. Like those are both ways of thinking about leadership, but they're not the exact same way. And so part of the challenge is when we talk about leadership, we aren't delineating. Things. And uh, like one of the points that I make in the book is I actually, uh, want fe women leaders to use their leadership gifts in the church. I don't think every woman should be a leader or in a leadership role. I don't think every man should be in a leadership role because not, there are a lot of men and women who are not gifted in leadership, so they shouldn't be doing big leadership roles. Uh, but can they get better at leadership? Yes, it's. Skill, they can grow in it depending, whatever their giftedness, you should add leadership to it. Because if you're an amazing prayer warrior, when you add leadership, you start organizing prayer things and you lead other people in the gift of prayer. So you should add leadership to every gift, and it's its own gift and you can learn it, and it's something that isn't measurable or needs a title to have happen. So clarifying those things and uh, giving clear definitions when we talk about such a controversial issue is really helpful in the dialogue.

Jonathan 19:20

And that's my point. I agree with you. I think having clear definitions is so important, especially your last one. Leadership can be a learned skillset. You know, when I grew up in, uh, leadership back in FedEx, um, that was not taught, not that FedEx necessarily agreed with that, but if you read leadership books, um, early on years ago, leadership, you either had it or you didn't. You couldn't, it was you were born with it or you weren't. I was taught that and then I've learned, well wait, that's not true. They might have just had a bad experience, but they actually are really good at leading something so

Kadi Cole 19:52

Yeah.

Jonathan 19:52

would disqualify them. So I think it's revisiting that. I appreciated you breaking that down. are, are there other thoughts on how we can help? the church, um, when working with leaders, um, to understand that you need to address these questions and these definitions, it's not a one and done. Um,

Kadi Cole 20:11

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 20:11

that.'cause you can be like, yeah, we talked about leadership two years ago at a conference and I'm sure everybody's on the same page and everybody understood what I was saying. That just doesn't seem to happen.

Kadi Cole 20:21

Yeah. When I work with churches, the number one challenge is that most senior leaders feel like everyone is clear on this. They're clear on the theological standpoint, they're clear on how it should be working throughout the entire organization of the church. And it just seems like, why are we back at this again? Why? Why is it still feel like there's some women complaining that it's not, you know, the environment isn't supportive enough or that people don't get it and it's because it's a challenging thing and. When people come into church, we bring our biases with us. And I think the piece that's easy to forget is that no one comes in and learns everything about theology in our church, just based on what we've taught. People bring in their own experiences, and it may not even be from another church. It may be from the family they grew up in or the kind of community where in the country or the world they grew up in, and what that community believed about women and their capacity. So we're really the first generation. To experience women having options in leadership, we're the first generation to see women fully educated, graduating high school. Nearly every woman graduates from high school, most women go on to have a college education. This is the first time in history we've ever seen that. It's the first time in history we've seen women be able to support themselves. By themselves over their lifetime. This is the first time. So we haven't experienced women doing these things. And for those of us who have been around a while, uh, we, you know, I remember, uh, my mom not being able to get a loan without, for a car, without some her dad, you know, secondary signing for her. Um, I remember women not getting to speak on stage in the church I grew up in. And so these are pieces I bring into my church experience now. And I make a lot of assumptions, or I make a lot of judgements that have nothing to do with the theology of the church or what I learned at that conference two years ago. It's just in my psyche and everyone in our congregations are like that. And so when we want to change culture, when we wanna open up more opportunities, when we want women to look at themselves differently than the culture taught them. Who they are originally, we have to remind people over and over and over again, just like we have to remind people about grace from God. That tends to be a theme we come back to over and over again. We need to remind people that they are made in the image of God, that they have gifts, that those gifts are meant to be used in leadership and there's space for everyone no matter how God gifted who. We want them to be able to use those gifts in our church. And that's just a piece we have to come back to because we all carry biases. Not just about women, about all sorts of people. You're too young, you're too old, you're from the wrong side of the tracks. You don't have enough money, you have too much money. We, you know, you're black, you're white, you're brown. We, we have those assumptions that we make about the kinds of leaders we expect and the way we expect those people to look and show up. And God tends to break those biases in the way he sprinkles those gifts out. And we as leaders have to continually remind people to be open to what God has actually done, not what we expect him to do.

Jonathan 23:15

Yeah, I appreciate that. I agree with you. And I think the other change that's happening is, um, the church is changing. People are always coming and going, and so you, you can't assume that, uh.

Kadi Cole 23:27

Hmm.

Jonathan 23:27

of the people are the same people two

Kadi Cole 23:29

Very true.

Jonathan 23:30

probably 20% are the same. so you have an influx. I know when I was in leadership, uh, in an executive position at church, it was, there was a frustration of, man, are people not going to get it? Why are the same people complaining? And I remember thinking, I just read your book. And I was like, well, when's the last time we talked about it and defined where we are? they were, they looked at me and they said. There's an assumption, Jonathan, and they should know what it is, and I was like, okay, there's a mistake right there. Let's read the fine.

Kadi Cole 23:57

fact that we even used the word assumption.

Jonathan 24:00

Yeah, I was like, no, there's no, there's no assumptions here because the church is changing and, and COVID

Kadi Cole 24:04

Yeah.

Jonathan 24:05

everything up as well. So,

Kadi Cole 24:06

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 24:07

So I think it's just going back to that on a regular basis. Um,'cause the church is changing. Things are changing, um, and we want to grow and develop. And my other point was, think you would agree with this 20 years ago, I don't think you had a lot of CEO executive women. Big corporate period.

Kadi Cole 24:26

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 24:27

a lot more executives, um, in corporate that are women, which is great. they're also in churches too. They're in nonprofits, they're in, they're using their skills in life it's, and I don't think the church has definitely that has yet realized how to, um, use them

Kadi Cole 24:43

Yeah.

Jonathan 24:44

resource them well and help them build each other up. It seems to be a challenge still. I know your thoughts on that.

Kadi Cole 24:50

Oh, absolutely. We have a lot of untapped potential and expertise and abilities in both men and women, but particularly in women. It's hard for, uh, churches to use them and. Especially high capacity leaders, both men and women, just our church processes and the way we think about using volunteers tends to not include higher capacity people. So, you know, you've got a president of a bank holding the door at nine o'clock as an usher, and I'm sure he's totally willing to do that as a servant. But what else could he offer in terms of leadership or influence or oversight, uh, that we just aren't sure how to utilize his giftedness? And then we see that a lot in women.

Jonathan 25:30

Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully we're making progress, but again, this isn't a one and done. Right. This is a continual process and like everything you talked about, we forget about grace. So we're definitely gonna forget about, um, this, uh, another thing you mentioned, which I appreciated was B you called it be other, be another for, uh, what's that about? You know, you talked about the importance of. Um, male mentors, male sponsors and female coaches, which I really appreciate coaching. It's what I do. Um, so thoughts on that, you know, what, how do you see that lived out and how pivotal, the, has that made a difference? Is that making a difference in changing the perspective?

Kadi Cole 26:13

Yeah, I really wrote this book for leaders, particularly male leaders who weren't quite sure how to help the women that they have around them or the women in their life that they're like, I think there's leadership in these people, or I think there's leadership in the women on my team. What do I do? And so these are really the three roles that every leader needs. Men just tend to come by them more naturally, and so I wanted to. Delineate them and articulate them. And then also for women to say, if you're missing one of these three or all of these three, uh, this is who the kinds of people that you need to grow your leadership. And especially if you're in a career of some kind, these are the three most important, uh, roles to have. So one is a mentor. So a mentor talks with you. And mentorship is really well known in the church. And women tend to have a lot of mentors, but they tend to have a lot of men mentors around spiritual development. They don't have a lot of mentors around leadership. And the reason is most of the leadership roles, in fact, upwards of almost 90% in churches are held by men. And so when a woman wants to grow in leadership, but she only looks to other women to be mentored around leadership, well she's got the pastor's wife, she's maybe got the person who leads children's or maybe women's ministry. But it's not someone on the board of elders. It's not someone overseeing all of finance. It's not someone running a ministry of small groups. So, uh, we, we need to make sure, if you wanna learn. At leadership and you want to be mentored. You find someone who's good at mentoring, and we as leaders have to be better about being okay, mentoring across gender lines, around topics that aren't gender-based. Leadership is not a gender-based skillset. It is a neutral skillset. Uh, so that's the first one. And a mentor talks with you, so you experience something, you come and you process it. They might ask you questions or fill in things you don't know about. There's a lot of conversation in mentoring. Uh, a sponsor doesn't talk with you. A sponsor talks about you. So a sponsor usually is in rooms of higher level leadership that you are not a part of. And, uh, they're talking about how to launch the next campus, or a big project company coming up or a new role that's opening. This is someone who's saying, Hey, I, I would like to nominate Jonathan or Susie or whoever. Uh, have you thought about her? Have you, have you watched her lead this over here? I've been keeping my eye on her, or this person's on my team. I want to. Assign them to that task force and let them get some good experience and rub shoulders with other people. It's someone who's opening doors for you that you cannot open for yourself. Now, sponsors aren't always warm and cushy. They're not having tons of conversations and coffee every week with you. That's what a mentor does, but a sponsor knows about your leadership, knows about your desire to grow. Uh, you've had conversations or let them know about your resume or your skill sets or hopes and dreams you have, and they want to champion you in other rooms. And then, uh, also sponsors can be men or women, and chances are they're gonna be men because again, men are the ones who hold most of the leadership roles. Um, and then a coach, uh, a coach is someone who really talks at you. If you think about a coach of a sports person, you know this'cause you do coaching. This is someone who's challenging you, who's stretching your thinking, who's saying, actually, the way you did that was good, but let's talk about how to make it. Great. Next time there's someone, there's someone who, they're not a therapist who looks backwards. They're a visionary who looks into the future and can see something in you and for you that you can't see for yourself and knows how to get you there. I would say, um, this tends to be a role that I recommend. Uh, women use female coaches to help them, uh, because you're talking about how, what are the actual logistics you do to make something happen? That's what a coach does. Now, when you go into the meeting, make sure you're doing these things. So for women, especially in male, uh, populated areas. This becomes really helpful, so I can coach in a lot of different things. I actually have a lot of male clients. We talk about being a senior pastor, an executive pastor. We talk about multi-site, but with my female clients, we're talking about things like, here's the mindset I want you to have walking into a room full of men. Here's how you pack to go on a conference when you're traveling with nine men and they're not gonna check a bag. Like none of them check bags. Let's talk about how you pack for a trip. Like they're very, here's how you navigate motherhood. Here's how you navigate a school schedule. These are very, these are things really tactical and very specific to women that need someone who's got a different kind of experience and viewpoint and can challenge them to not play the gender card or not play the easy card that a man might not recognize. I can look at her and say, you're playing small. When you say that, or you're telling me you can't take on that promotion'cause of what's happening with your kids, but let's talk about how you do both. How do you parent the way you wanna parent and do the promotion? Let's talk about how we do that. That's something that a female coach can oftentimes push in on, uh, more easily than a male coach who hasn't experienced those same challenges.

Jonathan 31:03

Wow. Good breakdown. That was awesome. I, and I think, you know, if I had a takeaway from me when you talked about that, when I read it in the book, is any one of these is helpful if you had one. Awesome. you have two, great. But three is really the powerhouse, right? It really, it's a multiplication factor.'cause the mentor is great. The sponsor is kinda like a headhunter for you, right? They're, they're promoting you. They're trying to find ways to get you to your name out there and to do things that's huge. Um, sometimes to find. But yeah, all three of that, that combination really sets a person up specifically in this situation, a woman understand who they are, what they're gifted at, and how they come across, which is what you were talking about with the coaching. If I, I have several females that I coach, um, but it's from a executive leadership level. Um, it's not from. You're talking from, it's a different perspective. It's from a, as you travel, as you do these things, and so it's really what do women need in different level, different seasons of their life as well? Is that, that's what I'm hearing as well. There is seasonal leadership and when you're getting into leadership, when you're more developed and then when you're maybe down the road a little bit, are you then, on the other end, are you mentoring and coaching? Coaching people?

Kadi Cole 32:19

Oh, absolutely. Yes. And it, and it's really about where are you feeling stuck, right? A coach helps you get unstuck and moves forward. And so if you need budget help. Um, you, that can be done from anyone. You can, you can hire a financial coach. You can handle, you know, there's, there's ways of approaching that. I think also the piece that's really important to acknowledge for leaders out there who want to help create spaces for women is that our environments, particularly in ministry settings, have built in for the guys, these three people kind of baked in. So most men who show up on a church staff or graduate from seminary and get a job somewhere, they can walk into a staff meeting and there's. 10 people that they can ask to go to coffee and have mentoring conversations. Uh, there are leaders who are going, there's a young guy that reminds me of me when I was his age. I'm gonna sponsor him. This kid doesn't need to ask for it. There are people who want to sponsor him and there are people coaching. His direct leaders probably gonna give him really candid feedback and challenge him to grow up and step into things. But for most women, they walk into a staff meeting and there really aren't women who can mentor at this level. Uh, no one's identifying with her thinking, I wanna, I wanna open up doors for her naturally. And her leader, the research would say probably is holding back, giving really constructive feedback and isn't quite sure and doesn't want to hurt her feelings and isn't sure how much she can take and, and dances around things. And so it's easy for women to feel, to compare to other. Their peers and feel like they're just not as good, but not realize they're not getting nearly the support baked into the culture that these guys are getting. And so for us as leaders, it's on us to make sure we're providing equal support for all of our team members, regardless of gender, even if we have to add some extra budget until our culture becomes when, where both men and women get all three of these.

Jonathan 34:11

I appreciate that. I won't belabor the point. I would just say I've seen this lived out, and I think the challenge I've heard is, well, there's lots of people available for her to be mentored and coached by, and the answer is. It's true, but will it be helpful? And the answer is usually no. It's not gonna be helpful because the, she needs a female to speak into situations. Just as we get specific coaches. If you're in baseball, you don't even get a baseball coach. You get a pitching coach, a hitting coach. I

Kadi Cole 34:37

That's right.

Jonathan 34:37

crazy coach. it's very niche almost. And I, I think that's the point for me is don't put everybody in the same bucket here. It is, it is unique, it is different, um, in understanding that, um. Well, I wanna focus a little bit on the next topic, which I think is very important. You have create an environment of safety. Um, you know, huge area. Uh, on page 1 0 8, you, you know, you said it should be standard practice in churches, just as in every other industry. To offer regular training to staff and leaders on diversity awareness and sexual harassment. totally agree. I mean, I work, I'm a vice president of a seminary. Um, we have training. We title all these different title things we do. churches seem to ignore this a little bit. Uh, so what's going on? Have we made progress? What's, where are we?

Kadi Cole 35:31

Uh, I do think we're making progress on all of these topics. I, I don't know that we're making huge progress on sort of, um, in, in the majority of churches on kind of these standard. Kind of hu HR ethical things that the marketplace has made more progress on. And it is kind of interesting, I think in church, especially if you're a smaller church and don't have a lot of resources, uh, it is easy to cut corners on these things. And so as you grow, uh, if you haven't really implemented it early on, even at a very basic level, as you grow, it's not the thing that people are thinking about. You know? And so then we end up with medium and large sized churches who. Have a lot more people, that leadership is much more complex. Your liability is much greater. We haven't implemented those systems and routines, and so we have this whole middle ground where we're really open and, uh, liable and vulnerable to some of these, uh, challenges. And we've seen quite a few churches really get taken out by many of these issues. And so my recommendation is wherever you're at. There isn't a too big or a too small to begin having healthy practices. And really the very baseline is there's a once a year training that you do in staff meeting and you show some video that's probably not very good by someone that you know, but at least you get it on the table. At least you're talking about it. At least you're. Setting the bar. We do it in children's ministry all the time because our insurance is tied to it. You have to train your volunteers, you have to do a background check. We need those same kind of standards, very minimal standards for all of our leaders to create some environments that at least begins moving us in the right direction. And then from there, you can take it to lots of levels, but that's at least the bare minimum standard.

Jonathan 37:15

Good. I'm glad you're encouraged. Again, I'm not involved, um, directly in churches, so I, I appreciate that you feel things are getting better. I hope they are. I think the tied to that is, you know, a lot of it's reporting and, and people, theme here is, um. an acceptance, so to speak, of things happen and it's like, was that just weird or should I report that and who would I report it to? Um,'cause if I was at work, I'd talk to my HR person and I know that I think that wasn't right and I should talk to the hr. There's a, there's a huge gray area here. Um, it seems it's not gray, it's actually black and white, but it's gray in a sense of how it's implemented.

Kadi Cole 37:55

Yeah.

Jonathan 37:56

Any advice or thoughts for churches, um, how to move in that direction. You know, not somebody, you're not gonna have an HR person necessarily, you're a small

Kadi Cole 38:04

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 38:05

Um, but how can you bring, um, uh, so that that brings safety and, um, just a process in place. Any

Kadi Cole 38:16

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 38:16

that?

Kadi Cole 38:17

Yeah, I, I think one of the things to talk about is that being in community is challenging and there are awkward moments and we misunderstand each other and we misconstrue things. And, uh, one of the reasons we want to talk about things when they f. Feel not right, or there's a chance that I've misunderstood something or there's a chance you did something wrong, and I am sensing that it's wrong. The reason we wanna talk about that right away when it's small is because, uh, we prevent things from getting bigger and worse later. So, uh, like some of the things that would be covered in a training would be just this concept of. Uh, of grooming a relationship for something inappropriate. There's oftentimes months of conversation and flirting and texting and all sorts of things that happen, and if we nip that in the bud from like encounter number one or two. When it's very small, like why would a pastor text me at 11 o'clock at night as a woman on his volunteer team? If I raise that issue to someone and we sit around and talk about it and he's like, oh, I'm sorry. I should do that, right? You just prevented a problem for both people later when we let that go and either something egregious happens or, or both of them have been worn down by the process, then you've got this big challenge later. But. Many people kind of do those things subconsciously, and it's a wake up call and we miss the wake up call for feeler of being awkward. And so I think the biggest thing is to just say it's awkward to be in family together. It's awkward to be in community, but we choose to do it because we know it's worth it. And the way we. Handle it is we lean into the awkward and bring things to the light. Satan wants to keep things in the dark. God wants to bring things to the light, and let's bring things to the light when it's small and we can laugh about it, not when it's serious and it takes out our ministry. I,

Jonathan 40:11

It leans to the, I appreciate that. And it, it leans into the whole culture aspects. If you have a

Kadi Cole 40:17

mm.

Jonathan 40:18

a culture of, of, we accept that what a man and a woman says is viewed equally. Um, they both have to be, uh. Witnessed or whatever, that's fine. But the truth is brings a concern whether they're a man or woman. Oh, let's address that. Let's talk about it now. What happened? Like you said, let's talk about when it's small and I wasn't thinking straight because it's 12 at night and someone's had 16 cups of coffee and they should be sleeping. They probably shouldn't be using their phone. So there is' a lot of things that can be explained away, but if you don't explain it, usually escalates and then all of a sudden. So a year later there's 30 examples and it's like, wow, what happened? And

Kadi Cole 40:55

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 40:58

sensitive topic, not so much sensitive. I've just unfortunately seen that, um, not go well and I've seen it go well also. I honestly have, I've seen people have the conversations and people own it and be like, yeah, I'm really sorry about that. I did not mean to hurt you. I didn't mean to come across that way. And, and it was restoration and, and we moved on from there. So I've seen it go well. Um. You touched on this a little bit about the right people. So it's not, oh, we're just gonna hire women because we need to fill spots with women. You talk about upgrading your people, um, so you're not advocating all the men should be fired and all the women should be hired. That's not the point of any of this, but I appreciate you need the right people in the right roles. Um, you talk in your book about honest performance reviews, um, being very candid. What, what does that look like and how, how

Kadi Cole 41:51

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 41:51

of that, just your thoughts on that topic.

Kadi Cole 41:55

Oh, one of the research pieces that comes through about women is that, uh, when we're uncomfortable and not used to navigating female leaders, we tend to give female leaders really what's called vague praise. So we're like, great job on that. Um, I give you a three out of five stars, but I don't explain why, um, or I give you a five outta five because I wanna make sure you feel good even though there's things I. Think you can do better. We tend to give men really constructive criticism. So like a common thing in the church is giving announcements. So if a guy gets up and gives announcements, we might give him feedback that says, uh, you know, great job on announcements. Uh, next time it should be less than 11 minutes. No need to do a sermon, you know. Uh, practice before you do it. You know, next time you do this, try to keep it just a, the three minute count that we have for it, you know, that kind of feedback. So really concrete, very forward thinking. And he leaves knowing exactly what to fix. When a woman gives announcements, we're like, great job. So awesome to have a girl on stage. You look cute today. Great, great hair. You know? And so as a woman trying to get better, it's like, well either. I was so terrible. They can't even tell me anything good or, or there's nothing I can improve. But I know because again, I have a sticky floor. I know I wasn't perfect. So, uh, not having feedback. So the, some of the most important things we can tell women is to use the phrase, next time you do this. I want to see this. Next time you get up there, try these things. What it does is it lets her know she's not out and she has things to work on, and that you actually see more potential in her. So we can take that same thing and put it in performance reviews being really upfront about. These are the things you're doing really well, and these are the concrete things I want to see improve for next year. And now she's totally knocking it outta the park, which happens a lot with high capacity FEMA leaders. They're just, they're, but are they overworking? Are they taking their vacation time? Are they intense? Are they, are they over preparing for everything? Like are they living a full life that you want to model for your congregation? Maybe that's the teachable point. And how do you give them all fives and then also say, I want you to take all of your vacation days next year. That can be. Just as helpful feedback to her. So finding those places and making it very concrete that she knows she can accomplish. Um, and then supporting her along the way in that, uh, I know a lot of churches have kind of gotten rid of feedback, uh, forums or, or annual reviews. They're really critical for female leaders because they often don't get the kind of concrete feedback, and she probably wants to measure herself against it all year. Most guys don't do that. They kinda look at their feedback from last year and they're like, I should look at this before I go in again and show what I've done. She's looking at it all the time. It's staying in her head, and so you wanna make sure you give a lot of good thought to that and celebrate the wins. Give a couple suggestions that are concrete that she knows she can work on, and then give her feedback about it throughout the year.

Jonathan 44:53

I think that's great advice. Thank you. I've lived that. I'm laughing when you were saying that because I've heard all of that. I've lived through all of that and I remember when I implemented a performance review at the church in Philadelphia the staff, I think there was 13, 14 directors and um, the men were panicking that. This is gonna cost me my job. They never had'em before and the women were not panicking. They were like serious. They were wondering, Hmm, I wonder what I'm actually going to get. We went through it and it was interesting with all for me. In this case it was, it was. Totally stereotypical in what you just said in the sense of all the women took it very seriously. Okay, what am I going to do next? What is my next goal? What is my next task? When will I be checked in again with this, Jonathan? Okay, great. How am I gonna measure me? The men were like, great, so I'm keeping my job. Great. Okay, I'll see you next year. It was just a total, which Cody was off for me.'cause in a corporate that's not how it is. Both men and women take it very seriously and are like, okay, this could cost me my job if I don't pay attention here. So it was an eye-opening experience for me when I gave it. Um, and the same for feedback. I can't, uh, say that enough. You saying good job means nothing.

Kadi Cole 46:08

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 46:08

might as well not say anything, but to be specific. I appreciate the specific feedback.

Kadi Cole 46:13

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 46:14

Yeah. And using something to give feedback, people want it. Um, this is my go-to in life, I think, I believe it's true. One day I'll get a documentation for it. Every human being wants to add value. That is a fact. And every human being wants to know how they're doing. They want to know, like, I improve? What's my next step in life? Everybody. Um, and if we don't give that in these situations, especially for women, they're not going to get it. So.

Kadi Cole 46:41

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jonathan 46:42

other topic you have is take on culture, um, take on culture in a way that's helpful and moves, moves the church forward. Um, every church has a culture. Um, so what advice would you give for like taking, what does that mean in a healthy way take on the culture? It's not coming in and giving'em a new culture manual. Um, what does that look like and, and what would be steps that people could take?

Kadi Cole 47:12

Sure. Well, I do lay out quite a few steps because, um, it is, you know, it's a big topic and I think my point in that chapter really is it's not about convincing one leader or about one woman being successful. It's about. If we're really gonna make space for female leaders, we do need to shift the culture because chances are, uh, if women are struggling moving up in leadership or aren't staying in leadership roles for very long or aren't fruitful in them, it's not because one person is in the way or one mindset needs to change. The whole culture is, uh, hitting her from multiple different areas. Eras or areas, uh, you know, it's kinda like death by a thousand paper cuts and that just wears on someone over time. And so part of the way is to really start at the top and have these kind of conversations about what do we really believe? Are we even as a leadership team clear about this? I think. And that tends to be the biggest shock to most leaders, uh, when I walk them through a process of, of, uh, trying to shape their culture better for women is they tend to get stuck at the leadership level. They're like, I just assumed we were all on the same page about this and that we were much better than we actually are. And so sometimes that leadership team needs some time to process this. And these are deeply ingrained, held beliefs. They're theological, they, they need scriptural. Study. They're not something you can just flip a page on and have everybody cheer. And I think one of the biggest challenges that men are surprised by is oftentimes when they try to make more space for women, the biggest resistance are other women. And that's because this is a cultural piece. We've grown up with limitations. Uh, I talked about it earlier that I've been told are sinful or wrong or unbiblical. So when you give some, you know, 20-year-old the microphone and she gets. To preach part of your message on stage. I am concerned we've lost our way in scripture. I'm concerned that we aren't paying attention or realize what we're doing and we're breaking the rules. That's what it feels like to many women, and so we have to really take our culture on and. Understand, uh, where the resistance is. Where are we trying to move people to? Why are we moving it? What do we believe God's word says about it? Why is that different than maybe what we have believed or why have we not brought clarity to it? Uh, apologizing for the places there's been confusion or misunderstanding. It's a long process. It can't be done in a white paper posted on the website or you know, a three week sermon series. That's not how you fix this. It's gotta be with the leadership structure and then with people that are stakeholders, people who care deeply about the issue and move it through slowly and um, and over. And as we do that, it's not that we lead. Slowly, the process, just, if you're leading it well, it takes some time for people to get their head around it, but it is very worth it, and it does make a huge difference, not just to the women. It makes a huge difference to the congregation, to the children growing up in your church, but it also makes a huge difference in your leadership ranks and your ability as a leader to have and mobilize enough leaders to reach your vision. That's where we see the most momentum come is mission accomplishment. That's the reason it's motivating to me to talk about this is because I think God's called our local churches to do some incredible things and we're leaving out our biggest human resource leadership to do it and, and we're struggling to accomplish what God has asked us to do, and most of the time he's given us what we need, but we do have to access it.

Jonathan 50:36

We do have to access it. That's a good answer. And I, I think, yeah, chapter eight is culture. You can't cover that in two minutes. Um, encourage people to read that, which is a great, I'm gonna, as we're wrapping this up, I'm just gonna ask you, so Katie, what are some services you offer to churches, to individuals? What, what can you offer to help in these areas?

Kadi Cole 50:57

Uh, yeah, I do a lot of coaching, uh, both of senior leaders, executive and senior pastors who are trying to shift their own leadership practices and those of their church. I work with church teams on how to bring awareness to this. I do a lot of teaching online and in conferences on the topic, and of course I have books and resources. And then I also offer a lot of programs for women who are coming up in leadership. To, uh, learn how to navigate and sort of do the coaching side of it to make sure they're showing up in a way that's helpful to the church and beneficial to them also.

Jonathan 51:29

And all that information will be in the show notes. If you wanna reach out to Katie Cole and have her come as a speaker, keynote, whatever I'd recommend her. Um, as we're wrapping it up, any advice you would give a new or emerging leader who wants to make a real difference in this area? What's their next tangible step that they can make?

Kadi Cole 51:49

Oh yeah. Well first of all, I think even listening to this podcast and being open to the fact that all of us as leaders have biases and things that habits things we've been taught, things we've picked up along the way that limit the potential of people around us. And part of leading others well is really stewarding how we're interacting with people and our own mindsets around this. And so taking a self inventory, asking other people, what's it like to be on my team? What's it like to be, uh, you know, a woman on my team and under my leadership and really listening for the answer. What's it like to be a black person? What's it like to be a white person? What's it like to be this age? Gifted differently than me, a different personality than me. The more aware, you know, self-awareness really is others' awareness. We can only become so self-aware without others' feedback. So when we open up ourselves and make that a habit to ask for feedback about our leadership and how we can expand our capacity to have more kinds of people on our team, that helps us become better leaders, it equips the people below us and it really creates a different kind of trajectory for the impact you can have over a lifetime.

Jonathan 52:55

No. I agree. Thank you. you so much for being on. I really appreciate your insights today. Um, again, we'll have to have you on again for another book at some time in the future. That would be great. So if this, if this, uh, podcast episode added value to your day, he'd like and subscribe, drop a comment. Um, if you have questions about Katie, her organization, all that's gonna be in the show notes, so how you can reach out to her, her organization to partner with you and your church addressing this and maybe other issues to help your church grow. Until next time, I'm your Jonathan Hank, and your change agent coach. Keep questioning, keep growing, and keep leading change.