Change Agent Leadership

Change is Like a Slinky - Book Interview with Dr. Hans Shultz

• Jonathan Hankin

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0:00 | 52:09

How to Lead Change (Without Losing Your Team) — with Dr. Hans Finzel

Dr. Hans Finzel returns to Change Agent Leadership to unpack the big idea behind his book Change Is Like a Slinky—why change is messy, unpredictable, and essential if you want your organization to survive and thrive. We talk practical leadership moves: building a guiding coalition, over-communicating the “why,” converting adversaries into advocates, and aligning your board, leaders, and teams so momentum sticks.

 

Guest: Dr. Hans Finzel — author, speaker, former president of WorldVenture, and president of HD Leaders. Author of 11 books including the international bestseller The Top 10 Mistakes Leaders Make and Change Is Like a Slinky.

 

What you’ll learn

·       Why leaders must accept the need for change even when the old way “still works”

·       How to anticipate allies and adversaries (and why the middle 70% are your leverage)

·       Why communication ×10 is the lifeblood of any change effort

·       How to align your board, leadership team, and staff so the “wheels” roll straight

·       The role of trust, vulnerability, and encouragement in sustaining momentum

·       How to turn critics into advocates through presence, listening, and clarity

 

▶️    Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Gq0o8o5h2lU

 

▶️   Schedule a free discovery call: https://jonathanhankin.com/contact 

▶️   Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Change Agent Leadership

01:16 Hans Finzel's Leadership Journey

02:26 The Necessity of Change in Leadership

04:23 Communicating Change Effectively

07:06 Change is Like a Slinky

12:37 Phases of Change

18:09 Accepting the Need for Change

23:09 Anticipating Adversaries and Allies

24:26 Understanding Leadership Miscommunication

25:44 Rebuilding Trust Through Humble Communication

27:38 The Importance of Over-Communicating

28:03 Focusing on the Right Group for Change

35:06 Aligning Your Team for Success

39:13 The Role of Encouragement and Trust

44:11 Challenges in Organizational Change

50:16 Advice for Emerging Leaders

 

Resources mentioned

·       Hans Finzel — https://hansfinzel.com

·       Change Is Like a Slinky by Hans Finzel 

·       The Top 10 Mistakes Leaders Make by Hans Finzel 

·       Buy-In by John P. Kotter & Lorne A. Whitehead 

·       The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni 

Catch full episodes of video versions and other leadership videos on my YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Jonathan-Hankin

Download Free Leadership Toolkits → https://www.jonathanhankin.com/leadership-toolkit-library

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Schedule a free 30 minute discover call: https://calendly.com/jonathan-jonathanhankin/30min

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Website: www.jonathanhankin.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-hankin 

Jonathan Hankin

welcome back to another episode of Change Agent Leadership. Today, Dr. Hans Finzel returns to the podcast to talk about change drawing from his book Change is Like a Slinky. Hans is a successful author, speaker, and a trusted authority in leadership. For over 20 years, he served as president of the international nonprofit world venture. Working across more than 65 countries. He's written 11 books, including The International Bestseller, the Top 10 Mistakes Leaders Make, which we talked about in the last time he was on the podcast. Now as president of HD Leaders, Hans Contributes continues to teach, consult, and speak around the world on all things leadership. Hans, welcome back to the podcast.

Hans Finzel

Thank you. I enjoyed it last time and I'm looking forward to talking about change today.

Jonathan Hankin

Yeah, I'm looking forward to our time together. Uh, several people commented on the last episode how valuable it was, so I know this one's going to be as well. So, as you know, I mean the title of this podcast is Change Agent Leadership. I picked this name because I believe true leaders must embrace deal with and lead through change to be successful. It's just part of leadership. So why did you get so interested in the topic of leading change?

Hans Finzel

Yeah, that when I was thrust into the leadership of an international nonprofit, uh, we were on a death spiral. The organization, the board, actually brought me into. As a turnaround to turn around our death spiral and into a 50-year-old organization. When I took over, it was 50 years old. I always like to say every 50 year old's got issues

Jonathan Hankin

Wow. 50 years.

Hans Finzel

and this organization, you know, like a lot of, I've studied the life cycles of organizations. You know, you probably have too. They start out with such vision and enthusiasm and passion. But as the years go by, especially as the top leadership changes, uh, you can go from, you know, passion to paralysis, from inspiration to institution, and that's what happened to the organization. I took over. So I remember the day I interviewed to take the job. I said, I don't want this job. To be the president of this ministry. I'm not seeking it, but if you think I can do a good job, I just need to know you're gonna back me when I start introducing change. Isn't it interesting how people want you to fix the problems, but they don't want you to change anything?

Jonathan Hankin

correct.

Hans Finzel

This is notorious in churches, uh, where a new pastor comes in and you know, the board says, oh, we want you to fix things. We want you to turn, we want to be healthy again. We want to thrive again. Like the good old days, well, are you willing to embrace change? Well, what kind of change? You know, so that's where I first realized leadership is about leading.

Jonathan Hankin

No.

Hans Finzel

Because nothing is stagnant. We live in a world that constantly changes and, uh, the world of today, we're talking that in 2025 and think about how different the world is than just well, in the year 2000 or, or 25 years ago, or even 10 years ago. So leaders have to become experts at, at the finessing of the leading of change and. The board did back me just to end that story. Uh, they said, yes, Hans, we will back you. And I ended up changing everything over the years I was CEO of 20 years. We did turn things around the day that organization is thriving. It's doing better than what I let it, which is what I wanted. But we changed the name, we changed the location, we changed the board structure, we changed the organizational structure. The branding, you name it. We had to change everything to survive.

Jonathan Hankin

I think you hit a Keith point there. As we dive into this topic a little bit more, is you change to survive and I would say thrive. That's what I heard is it sounds like it was thrive. You didn't change

Hans Finzel

Yes.

Jonathan Hankin

to change. And I think that's a key before we jump in, uh, just to talk about that for a second. A lot of leaders, uh, are abrasive to change because they don't understand why there's a necessity. And you, we, you talk about that in your book, and I think employees come, uh, it's a, they receive it as, oh, we're changing just because there's a new person. Neither of those are true, Right. I mean, it really isn't about let's just change to change. And there is a big disconnect. And one thing I liked about your book is we're gonna go through, we're not gonna go through all of the cycles, but as we go through this, a key part of this, even, um, you know, talking about the mistakes leaders make. In the last book we talked about communication is so key, right through this. Uh, just touch on that real quick. Just at a high level, what have you seen as a disconnect or have you seen that is most important? Pick either one or both communicating this change to not just the board, but those people that have to live with you every day for the next X amount of days.

Hans Finzel

Yes, we're gonna get into the fact that all people resist change. Uh, communication is the lifeblood of successful change because everybody's against change. Uh, you know, if they're not in on it, they're down on it, you know? Uh, and, uh, so I, I can't tell you how many people. Attributed wrong motives to my change programs no matter what. I was changing. People attributed negative emo mo motives and wrong motives. And what's the key to getting people to embrace it? Uh, just what you said, communication. I mean, you've got to be in front of your people all the time telling them, this is why I'm bringing about change. And what you said about thriving is so important because some leaders, when they take over, they want to change everything.'cause they want it to be their imprint, you know, their mark. And it's almost like a, an animal marking their territory.

Jonathan Hankin

Yes.

Hans Finzel

And, and I, and I totally agree with you. We can't just change things for change's sake, but I was accused of that. Oh, you just want to change everything just because you want to change everything. No, I want us to go from stagnation to thriving, but you have to unpack. You have to unpack the whys of why you're, uh, change. So that's, by the way, here's the book. Change is like slinky, and we can get into why change is like the slinky. But yes, communication is key.

Jonathan Hankin

jump in. That's right. I, I, the reason that I you, you triggered a video I watched the other day about CEOs and how their mindset has to be customer oriented and in the change your customer is your employees, um, a lot of times. And so let's dive into the book. You, you describe change as being like a slinky, you brought up your book. I got my book here. Reddit change is like a slinky. You mentioned it's messy, it's unpredictable, and sometimes, uh, stuck. So what inspired you to use that metaphor and how has it shaped the way organizations approach change? I know there's lots to unpack there, but Yeah. So what inspired you to use that metaphor and how has it shaped the way organizations sh should approach change?

Hans Finzel

I have much slinky here and I don't know when. In the middle of all this change, and I decided to write a book about my experience as I went through it, and I, I thought about now I love toys. I and I, I love enduring toys and I now have 11 grandchildren that, and I watch them with their toys. I always say the best toys have no batteries, right.

Jonathan Hankin

They last longer. last longer.

Hans Finzel

And this thing has been around forever. It was, uh, invented by a gentleman who worked, was on the, in the Navy, on a boat trying to figure out how to, um, develop feet for these compressors so they wouldn't shake. Anyway, one day he, he, this thing, he was working on it, it fell on the deck and it went, it started to walk and he took it home to his wife and he said. You think this could be a toy? And here here's the cool thing, the wife actually said. Yes, I think it could be. A lot of times our spouses think our ideas are crazy. So, couple of things why change is like a slinky, it's very flexible. And if you are a rigid person or you're a rigid organization. You're gonna die by paralysis. You know, it's what I call the hardening of the categories. And again, a lot of organ, a lot older organizations and older leaders get, get stiff. They get set in their ways. And I, you know, Jonathan, I don't think age is necessarily a physical thing. It's almost a psychological thing. I know people that are 80 who act like they're 40. And I know people that are 40 or 45 or 50 that act like they're 80, right?

Jonathan Hankin

No, that's very true.

Hans Finzel

So. Uh, you have to be flexible. Change is messy. That's one thing. Uh, the slinky makes a lot of noise and change is messy. It's uncomfortable. And the other thing I loved about the slinky analogy, you know, what do we do with the slinky when we're kids? Well, we do this, you know, this is a fun thing to do. The other thing we like to do, I used to send it down the stair steps at my house to see how far. On the stairs, and that's when you launch a change initiative. It's like launching a slinky down the stairs. You never know where it's going to end up. Have you noticed that

Jonathan Hankin

It's not gonna go the same

Hans Finzel

you think. No, and it's not gonna go where you thought it's gonna go. And change, uh, creates more change and unpredictability and a lot of us are very uncomfortable with unpredictability When you think, okay, uh, for example, we. We changed our location. We moved our offices from the Chicago area to here to Colorado. That was a huge change, but it actually spawned more change and and change. Spawns change, and it never turns out the way you think it will. So you have to be prepared for being uncomfortable, for things, being unpredictable. But it's a good thing, you know, you gotta do it.

Jonathan Hankin

No, I like it. I like your metaphors there, that you're using the, I mean, the slinky and the metaphor, the idea that it's unpredictable, it's a bit messy. Um, and you don't know exactly how it's going to go because you can start the change, but then it takes a life of its own. And so, um, I, I think, you know, one question I have, which, which aspect of the slinky analogy tends to resonate the most with leaders? do you think it's. Well ask the question what resonates?'cause what I heard you saying is a lot of it. is mindset.

Hans Finzel

It is. It's an attitude, uh, it's a mindset of, um, and, and the leader by the way, cannot change things alone. It has to be, um, a guiding coalition of people. My team, the first people I had to sell on any particular change was my own inner circle, right? If they're not on board with me,

Jonathan Hankin

It

Hans Finzel

you know it's not gonna work.

Jonathan Hankin

that's right.

Hans Finzel

Uh, I'm teaching this, uh, next week in South Carolina on the five dysfunctions of a team, and, and the, and the first problem usually is the team's not unified. They don't trust each other. So they may say on the outside, yeah, I'm with you on this change. But on the inside they're resisting it. They don't really buy it. And until the inner circle. Totally is, has buy-in to the change. You can't work outward to the, the rank and file people.

Jonathan Hankin

that's true. No, I appreciate that. we're not gonna go through each phase of change in the book, but uh, you do highlight. I'm looking at my book here. You do highlight throughout the book and even at the beginning the different phases, the six different, um, cycles of change, and we're gonna pick a couple of'em to go through, but can you just give an overarching view of those six phases?

Hans Finzel

Sure, yeah, they are. Um, absolutely. And, and it's, it is like a, a slinky in that it's a cycle. Uh, so phase one is accept the need for change. And that may sound like, uh, uh, elementary, but it's true. The first thing you gotta do is accept the fact that things need to change. Uh, if, if. And why, why do things need to change? Because the world, again, is constantly changing. And if you're failing, uh, in your organization, you're failing in your ministry, your church, whatever, your school, it's probably because circumstances have changed. Your context has changed, your environment has changed. And so you're gonna have to change things in order to be relevant. And by the way, some people hate the word relevant. Ooh. You just want to be relevant. No, I, I wanna be significant. I want to, I always said that I want to be in the center of the action. Uh, I, I don't want to be on the peripheral. So you gotta accept the need for change. You gotta aim squarely at the future, and that's where you figure out, okay, we gotta build a new bridge. Uh, first of all, we gotta decide where's this bridge gonna go. Number three, anticipate your adversaries and allies. We'll get into this a little bit more later, but, uh, everybody resists change and you can, you can be totally taken out. I remember, uh, when I was changing our name, we had a denominational, um. Label. Oh, by the way, let me take a better analogy. I've been reading the book, uh, by David McCullough, the Wright Brothers. Uh, the hi, the history of the beginning of airplanes, the adversaries that those two brothers had is unbelievable. The US government was against them. The, even the Smithsonian Institute didn't believe them and I, I was reading this one guy was prominent, prominent people saying. There is no way man can fly. And secondly, why would we, what useful purpose would it be to have a flying machine, right? Those are the adversaries.

Jonathan Hankin

yeah.

Hans Finzel

They love about the Wright Brothers. They were, they had all those factors for leading change effectively. And you know what they had, they had faith. They believed in their cause and they had hope, but you have to anticipate your adversaries. They also had some great allies, uh, their sister and, and a lot of other people who, who came around them and helped them. You gotta have allies again. I said before you have to have a guiding coalition to help you, uh, four, advance the plan with courage and tenacity. And again, the Wright brothers took them five years from their beginning experiments and gliders until they had the first successful motorized

Jonathan Hankin

Hmm.

Hans Finzel

airplane. And, uh, it was tremendous amount of tenacity and courage. If you've, um, if you've read stories of, of great companies like Steven Jobs and Apple, or Howard Schultz and Starbucks, those, those stories inspire me because everybody told Howard Schultz when he founded Starbucks. Nobody's ever gonna pay for more than a dollar for a cup of coffee

Jonathan Hankin

Yet here

Hans Finzel

anyway,

Jonathan Hankin

Nothing's less than

Hans Finzel

you.

Jonathan Hankin

10, but go ahead. Yes, yes.

Hans Finzel

Um, gasoline. Uh, number five, adjust your course as you listen and learn. And that's where you have to, again, the slinky analogy, it's not, you can't get so locked in. I've seen change efforts fail because the leaders are not willing to pivot. And it's so important as you're going through a change as we were, uh, moving. I had so many, uh, town hall meetings with my staff, uh, to talk to them about the, the ramifications. And I learned, I listened and I learned, and I pivoted and I changed to take them along with me. And number five, uh, six, align your team as you stay. The course of change, that's all about alignment, where everybody from the board to the leadership to the rank and file is on the same page.

Jonathan Hankin

Yeah, sounds

Hans Finzel

So that's a rough.

Jonathan Hankin

You can do that in a couple hours. And, uh, but we all know as we've lived through this, you and I, at different places I have and other, all the lead leaders that are listening those that are coming, this is an ongoing, you mentioned the Wright brothers. I can appreciate that. We'll probably tie into that analogy as we go. Um, but this is a long journey change. Leadership is a long journey. we never know where it's going to arrive or what it's going to look like. Um, and also just every, um, major change we take on, we don't know where it's going to go. So let's start with phase one. We're not gonna go through all of'em. We're gonna pick mainly three phases, which is phase one, three, and six to talk about today. So phase one, is accept the need for change. So. Why is accept the need for change a critical first step, and then tied to that, you know, what happens when it's overlooked? Because I know, um, you mentioned you gotta have people on board and it's not just verbally on board. So unpack that a little bit. Why is this so important? What does that look like?

Hans Finzel

Yeah, because a lot of people have the uh, uh, attitude. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And I'm, uh, I'll use the analogy when we changed our organizational name and, uh, I had so. Much pushback, but I realized it was killing us. Uh, we had a denominational name, I'm not gonna mention what it was, but it was killing us.'cause we live in a world where people don't care about denominations and young people we were trying to recruit and they definitely didn't want to have a denominational badge. And so I had to do a tremendous amount of work, uh, explaining to people that things were broken. You know, people say, if it ain't broke, it's not broken. I love it, and the old timers and the insiders love the old stuff, but I, I, I think that an organization should be healthy and thriving and growing. And so the first thing you have to do is accept the need for change. Things have to change. I brought some of my, uh, little, uh, props here. Here. Here's my, uh, first cell phone. This was called the brick plugged into my, uh, cigarette lighter on my car, which they no longer have cigarette lighters,

Jonathan Hankin

would work anymore. Doesn't compute to USB.

Hans Finzel

right? So. This was, uh, one of my first phones and then, then I had this one my Motorola flip phone. Oh my goodness. I love this thing. This thing was amazing. I remember first time I was driving in my car and I called my mom. I was coming, going to see her, and I called her on this phone from my car. And uh, this was like 30 years ago. And I'm like, yeah, I'm coming to see you. Where are you right now? I'm in my car. Well, how can you be in your car and talking to me on the phone? It was hilarious. Uh, the point is things changed. Life changed the technology. It's not just technology. And Jonathan, aren't we all overwhelmed by the technolo speed of technological change? And

Jonathan Hankin

Very

Hans Finzel

I'm overwhelmed. And I'm scared about ai. Everybody's forcing AI down our throats right now, and I just, I don't like the thoughts of where that might go, but let's not get lost on ai. The, the world changes and I, I think if you plug this in, I don't know, it might still work, but it's obsolete and that's the key. A lot of organizations are doing things that might actually still work. But they're obsolete.

Jonathan Hankin

Correct.

Hans Finzel

And that's why you have to accept the need. You know, like I've seen so many churches who have have the attitude. The old timers are saying, oh, let's go back to the good old days. Let's go back and do the stuff we used to do when we were successful and we will be successful again. Well, it doesn't work that way.

Jonathan Hankin

Yeah, I think it's

Hans Finzel

It might still.

Jonathan Hankin

Yeah. Go ahead.

Hans Finzel

And one of the biggest, um, enemies of an organization are you're all tied up in doing things that work less and less and less, but you're not willing to let go of them and pioneer a new approach to your mission.

Jonathan Hankin

I think that you mentioned there, accept the need for change. A key thing that came to mind is, is what you're trying to do if you're trying to bring the past into it. But is it still relevant today? because, you know, you're, were you trying to recruit different people in your example you gave or. the phone business. Um, they're not trying to recruit people that or sell a phone that plugs into a USB in your car. I mean, if, if they were just trying to make the next step of the brick phone, it would be still have a cord and it would still plug in, well, you know, all phones now, most of'em don't even need a cord. They're battery charged or you know, you can charge'em, um, without a cable. Again, it's the progression and then it is that mindset. Well, my phone still works. In your case, if you plug that into your, um, if you had a cigarette lighter, it's not going to work because the system has stopped. And I think that's a disconnect for people. Sometimes the internal process might work, but the external system doesn't work anymore. Like you mentioned, you're trying to get younger kids. Well, the external system is the younger kids and they don't understand what your system is talking about. Right. There's a disconnect there.

Hans Finzel

Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin

So moving forward in that, I see that as a change challenge. Well, um, moving on to phase three, anticipate who is with you and who fights change. Um, I, I kind of almost bit my drink out when I read this part because I was laughing of, we don't always take that into consideration. Um, we, well, I'll put it this way, I think and tell me your experience. When I worked with a lot of leaders, there's an assumption that everyone's gonna be excited as I am. Everyone's going to be on board with this idea.'cause there it's an awesome idea and there's often a disconnect there. Um, so you said in your book you anticipate your adversaries and allies is part of the game. So what are some common mistakes that leaders make in this area?

Hans Finzel

I think you hit it. Uh, I think a lot of pe, a lot of us leaders think that our people understand what's going on inside our head through some process of magical osmosis. I remember when I was a young man, my first. Uh, job out of graduate school. I worked for a visionary leader. I can't tell you how many arguments I had with him because I would say, okay, let's say his name was Joe. His name wasn't Joe. But I say, Joe, we don't understand what's going on inside your head. You keep. Spinning all these plans, but we don't understand. And he's like, you don't understand. Why don't you understand? And, uh, that, that's where I learned that. I think a lot of leaders think that, um, through a process of osmosis, your people understand what you're thinking, but they don't, that people understand what's in your heart. Uh, I, when I was leading the name change, that was where I had one of my biggest, um. Blowups with internal people who began to rebel against me and they wanted to get rid of my leadership because they didn't agree that we needed to change our name. And, and this is where I was so puzzled that they were attributing faults and negative motives to my reason. The reason I wanted to change was so that we would thrive and grow. Not because I had some egotistical agenda item and I remember one of my top vice presidents said to me, Han, they just don't understand you.

Jonathan Hankin

Mm

Hans Finzel

You know, I understand you'cause I work with you every day. But they don't, there's the lesson. See, they don't, they don't get what's going on in the leader's head. And it's our job to communicate, communicate, communicate. Neat. In particular, we were working in 65 countries around the world and one organ, one place, uh, particular in Africa. A whole group of our personnel there were gonna quit and go find another organization. They had lost all respect for me and my Africa director said, Hans, they don't get you. And the only way they're gonna get you is for you to sit down in a room with them and explain why, why you're doing what you're doing. And he said, furthermore, you can't bring them here to Colorado to your office and sit'em down to talk to'em. You gotta go to Africa and sit down in their living room and talk to them. Which I did. And uh, I still remember what a wonderful, uh, weekend it was. In Uganda and I sat there and I, first thing I did is I apologized. I said, you know, I'm really sorry. I, I have failed you as a leader. You don't understand what I'm doing. I haven't communicated clearly, and you've gotten very upset at me and you want to quit and I'm sorry. Will you forgive me? And you know, that went a long way. I was kind of surprised. And of a day later. So we talked and I explained, and I explained, and a day later they asked me to forgive them for, uh, deleting all my emails, throwing away all my communic, you know, not trying to listen anymore. And that's what happens, Jonathan. Eventually communication breaks down and trust breaks down. And then if you can't rebuild that trust through. Humble communication. All bets are off. Well, long, long and short of it, uh, it worked. Uh, at the end of the weekend, we kissed and made up and, uh, they didn't quit and they understood where I was coming from. That's where I learned such a valuable lesson. I have to over communicate by a factor of 10. And leaders always think they're communicating more than they really are. Uh, so that's why you have to, um. Anticipate who's with you. And those are who are against you. You have to try to convince them. But let me say one more thing. Leaders make sometimes they make a critical mistake when they're leading change in. So like, here's the deal, 15% of the people are raving fans. Uh, in this book I have this chart about, um. Followers and where they're at. 15% are your raving fans who will follow you anywhere you go, no matter what you do. The 15% at the other end are gonna be against you no matter what you do. And then in the middle are the people from Missouri, you know, the show me state, they're like, they're the fence sitters who you know, you show me and I'll probably go along with it. So where do you think a lot of leaders make the mistake of pouring all their energy? Into the trailing 15% that are against you, and you will never turn some of them around. Where should you spend most of your time with the leading 15%? Use them as your coalition to convince the middle people and then you're gonna be good. It's like Moses, you know, when he went to through the, uh, red Seed of the Promised Land, you know, there were some people who were whining and complaining the whole way.

Jonathan Hankin

No, it's so true you, it's focusing on the right group. I do appreciate your comment there. It sounds like in the situation in Africa, you were able to turn an adversary into an ally, and it sounds like that were actually. Um, maybe on the trailing edge of the edge of that middle 70%. Right. They were the same scene. They were against you, but for the wrong reason. They just didn't understand. Um, so how you were able to turn'em into an ally, it sounds like, and then it, they hopefully became not only just an ally, but your communication source to others, which is so important.

Hans Finzel

They not only became allies, they became advocates for the change. And those are the best advocates are the people you turn around. And because it's peer to peer. Promotion. I would rather my, those people would talk to all their other peers around the world and explain, oh, this is a good idea and here's why, and that's what happened. So you're absolutely right. Some of your best advocates are the people you turned into allies.

Jonathan Hankin

and I don't wanna belabor this point, but this one stood out to me a lot, this anticipate, because I think for a leader that's. Most that may be stressed is busy. Not that you were stressed when they wanted to quit, but let's say you were, and there's a lot going on, it would've been easier just to say, well, I guess we're rebuilding and we're gonna chalk that up to they're just not on board and move on because it takes more energy to actually try to. Clearly communicate, build the bridge, understand what the disconnect is. But I think we owe it not just to our, to the team. We owe it to ourselves to learn through that and to grow and through that, in this situation, it doesn't always go well, but you were able to identify. Okay. They're not on my side. Why? What have I done? You took responsibility and then you moved on and was able to share with them and they became allies as you said. do you think leaders cannot easily identify those are on board and those who, who appear to be on board? Because you mentioned that there's a lot of lip service back now. The group in Africa, they didn't just give it lip service. They sounded very serious, like we're out. Thanks for your nice knowing you. Um, but that worked out. But how do you, how do you, uh, rec, you know, talking to leaders, what's a good way or some thoughts on identifying when someone is just giving you the head nod when they're actually embracing and an advocate for you? Hmm.

Hans Finzel

Yeah, that, and that is tricky. That's uh, why I'm a big fan of the Five Dysfunctions of a Team Lencioni, because he talks about how many. Times there are meetings where people will say in the meeting, well, they won't say anything, or they'll agree passively, but then they'll go out and sabotage you. So the first thing you gotta do is make sure that your inner circle is being honest with you, vulnerability. Honesty, trust. That's where it starts. And, and there are ways that you can make, you know, you probe for, you know, I like to have messy meetings. Uh, I, I think conflict is a good thing in meetings. And if a meeting is quiet and there are crickets and you're debating big things, then somebody's not being honest.

Jonathan Hankin

Yeah,

Hans Finzel

what I'm saying? A good. Meeting has, uh, disagreements and you plow together and you come up with solutions. Beyond that, I would say if you have an inner circle of leaders, they are the ones that can tell me who's really with me or who's really with us and who's against us, because they, it goes down in layers and a lot of people will never be honest with the top leader.

Jonathan Hankin

yeah.

Hans Finzel

But they'll be honest with their peers and with their, you know, the sub leaders, the managers. So I think you have to work through your team to find out who are, who are my adversaries and who are my, uh, advocates.

Jonathan Hankin

and this is not, I guess my last comment on this, and you can, you are welcome to say something else is, none of these are one and done, you know? So this step is not a, okay, my executive team is on board. We're all ready to go. Let's take the next hill and you all communicate. I think you have to,'cause life is happening, right? They're having life situations, they're having leadership situations, and it involves dialogue with them and making sure, are we still on board? What, and, and having even more discussions. Maybe they're heated about, believe this is where we're going, do you believe or not? And, and continually having that because they're. Vocal box, right? They're the ones that are talking to everybody else more than someone's gonna talk to you.'cause they're more accessible. And I think a lot of leaders forget that, that you do have to have advocates. because they're the accessible ones. The higher you get, the less accessible you are.

Hans Finzel

That's absolutely right. Yep. So you just have to, and, and you're constantly having to cook up new changes. You, you, you're right. Okay. We agreed on the last thing, but oh, guess what? The next thing is now hitting us and how are we gonna. Yeah. How we, you know, uh, you were saying before we got on the air, how in the world that you're leading and part of a leadership team, how, you know, things are constantly moving and shaking and the, and just thought you, uh, it's like that old whack-a-mole game. You thought you had all the things down and the next thing you know something, the next thing pops up that you have to figure out how to solve, and it often involves change.

Jonathan Hankin

that's true. And uh, just back to your original point, you know, uh, we have to accept change.'cause it's coming. And so how do we deal with it? You mentioned ai, we're not gonna get into that, but it is coming. Change is here. AI is here. It's not gonna go away, I don't think. And so. Again, it's having the conversations and discussing that, um, not just ignoring it. So phase six, uh, the last phase here. Align your team. What is, what, when you say align your team, can you unpack that a little bit?

Hans Finzel

Yeah, my, uh, one of my boys, I have four children and a couple of'em really worked on cars a lot when they were teenagers. I remember my son Jeremy, bought this old car. I didn't want him to buy it, but he didn't have any money, so he bought it, you know? Fixer upper, and I remember I had a terrible problem with alignment. Uh, alignment is when your wheels are balanced and they're in alignment with one another and you drive smoothly. And if a, a car's alignment is way off, which can happen by hitting a curb, by an automobile accident, it wobbles. And when it wobbles, it can't go fast. Organizations are that way, and in my mind you have. Many organizations have a a board, and then you have your leadership team, and then you have your. Maybe sub leadership team, and then you have the people, right? And so to me it's getting everybody on the same page of the Himn book. And I have seen organizations where the leadership team is united, but the board is against them because they don't agree with what they're trying to do. Or I've seen it the other way around where. Uh, uh, well, I had a chairman of my board at one point when I was leading this name change who, uh, he decided he wanted to get rid of me'cause he didn't believe in changing the name. And at one point he wrote a really nasty letter to a whole bunch of people about how. I was way off and we needed to get rid of me and all that. Th thankfully in the end, the board dismissed him. But that was a great example of a board and a leadership team not being in alignment on the same page. An organization's not gonna work well. Unless everybody in the organization is, um, on the same page. I'm on the board of trustees at Columbia International University. It's a great school and we have a wonderful president, bill Jones, and I've worked closely with him for many years and he has a passion of going around campus and asking people the mission statement, students, faculty, staff, even our board, what's our mission statement? And I love it because that's what alignment's all about. Everybody knows the building blocks of what we're doing and why we're doing it. So that's what alignment is. It's everybody from the board to the leadership to the staff. In this case, students. In other cases, it could be the congregation, but everybody is aligned about. Where we're going and what we stand for. And a lot of pastors, I know they have an annual, uh, sermon where they preach, you know, the, the vision of the church. It may be they ought to do it more often, but, uh, that's, that's a great example of pushing for alignment.

Jonathan Hankin

Well, you mentioned earlier communication. Communication, communicate, right? I mean, the rule of thumb is you can't, you can't over communicate, but most people we're always worried they're gonna think it's too much, but it never is. Um, asking that question is great. So using your analogy, you just gave me the analogy of the car and the alignment, I totally get that. Um, and so one of the things that's helpful with the car, when it's in alignment, you can let go of the steering wheel. You shouldn't do that when you're driving, but if you let go, the car will go straight, right? It, it goes straight. It doesn't veer

Hans Finzel

yes.

Jonathan Hankin

which helps if you were in neutral. It also helps with momentum because it's going to go in the same direction. It's takes less effort. You don't have to struggle to keep it on. I had a car that had a really bad alignment. I hit something and it kept wanting to pull to the left, so I'm literally fighting the thing till I get to the garage. So how does, how does encouragement play in sustaining momentum? How, you mentioned this in your book, how, talk about encouragement.

Hans Finzel

Oh, I was just gonna say the analogy of the car, the four wheels could be, you know, the board is a wheel. Uh, the, uh, the leadership team is a wheel. The managers are a wheel, and the, the rank and file people are the, the, the fourth wheel and the, the, the leader is driving it, sitting in the, you know. In the driver's seat, um, making sure that these four wheels stay in alignment. Encouragement. Oh, man, that's, that's such a big topic. Uh, we, we leaders have to be encouragers, and I'll have to be honest with you, I, I struggle with this area. I'm not, uh, I don't have a pastor's heart. I, I, I was a pastor for two years in my early on in my career, and I, I realized, boy, I, I just. That's not for me. I'm not saying every pastor has to be, have a pastor's heart, you know what I'm saying? But when it come, my wife always says, you know, uh, nurture and encouragement is not a natural part of who you are. And I just, that's one of my weaknesses. Jonathan, I gotta be honest. I, I, in fact, the, the guy that eventually replaced me after my tenure. Was totally a nurturer and an encourager and a pastor's heart. And that's the way the pendulum swings in organizations. Right? Uh, so I think it's important that we're constantly encouraging our troops. I think it's harder for some of us than others.

Jonathan Hankin

it's true. Well, you

Hans Finzel

I.

Jonathan Hankin

about this, you know, the whole phase six, you know, aligning and sustainability. Can, can you talk about a little bit about you, um, trust and how important that is in keeping change together? Um, you talk about it being the glue, what. you know, you have your different levels in that. Um, how do you continue to build trust? How do you ensure that there's trust? Just general thoughts as people are listening to not take for granted that Trust is given.

Hans Finzel

Trust is really the glue. Uh, it's absolutely, uh. If you don't have trust and if trust is broken down, I always tell people, if you don't trust your leader, either fix that or you need to leave and go somewhere else. And, um, I think, uh, the leader himself or herself need to really, uh, talk to their inner circle about trust, you know, and vulnerability. To me, the key to being building trust is vulnerability. I remember at, uh, a critical meeting I had with, um, my leaders and I, I, I, uh, opened my heart to this is how you build trust, Jonathan. You get vulnerable. And I told them at one point, I'll never forget, I, I'm an adult child of an alcoholic and that's a syndrome. And if you're an adult child of an alcoholic, you have a hard time trusting people. Uh. Letting them into your heart, uh, being vulnerable. Uh, anyway, I un unpacked these, the things that were going on, and they, a light bulb went on for them and they were like, oh, okay, now we get why. And it was so healing when I finally confessed to them. Guys, this is why I struggle with being open. This is why I'm so driven and independent and don't like to rely on other people. It's because if you grow up in an alcoholic's home, you're an adult in a child's body and you have to, you, you kick into this survival mode. And you, uh, try to stay out of the fray and you've become very isolated and independent. So that's just an example of being vulnerable. I think to answer your question, vulnerability on everybody's part on the leadership team builds trust. And honesty, you know where you say to, I had people come to my, come into my office and they got really honest with what bothered them about me and it hurt. But I created an atmosphere where you can be vulnerable and you can approach me, and I think it was helpful.

Jonathan Hankin

Well, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that. I mean, uh, honesty and trust, vulnerability and trust is so huge. You kind of answered my next question, but I'm still going to ask it, because I just read an article on this. It's, you know, a lot of people talk about, I've heard it said, you know, most change efforts. And I would say, I could see where that could be true, but I actually read in a Harvard Business Review article this last couple weeks stating, I'll read the quote, changing an organization's culture is a vaccine leadership challenge, and success is the exception rather than the role. In fact they say based on research, recent research from five academics, 72% of companies that have started such initiatives since 2022 didn't move the needle on employee trust, engagement or retention. A full year later, end of end of uh, quote there, we got at Harvard Business Review. This is what they do. They do a lot of research and people were not moving the needle. so. I think you answered it a little bit. My question to you was gonna be, why are so many companies failing here and what does move the needle, right, because they are failing. Um, and you talked a little bit about, you know, the trust and the honesty. Any other thoughts on why today it's so hard to move the needle? Specifically, they listed these things, employee trust, engagement, or retention. So yeah, thoughts.

Hans Finzel

I think it re, I think it's so much more difficult nowadays to the retention. I think social media has, plays a huge part in. What makes people tick nowadays and, um, my wife and I just had dinner last week. We were with a couple, and you've seen this too, but next to us was a grandmother, mom and dad, and the two little kids who were like. Five and eight and both the little kids were each watching a movie on their phones during the entire time at dinner, one of one of the girl closest to me was watching Shrek the movie and did not say a word through the entire dinner. Okay, so we've all seen that and it bothers us, but what's it creating? This is not a new problem, but we're creating a generation and generations of people that don't relate well to other people. I think that's a big part of the retention problem and the com and the trying to build teams and community, whether it's a university or a business or a church. I think what's going on our going on in our society, we're much more focused in on social media than on learning how to have relationships with one another. I think that's, that's not everything, but that, that's a big part of it.

Jonathan Hankin

thanks for sharing. I, I think that is part of it. People don't, um, it's a challenge to know how to be socially aware if you're just using your phone as your friends and, and not interacting. Even just the two of us talking here, this is. We're recording this, but we're live talking. I'm not typing you a

Hans Finzel

Yes.

Jonathan Hankin

tell me what you think about chapter

Hans Finzel

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin

Because I will never get your real feelings. I'll never get what you really meant by that. If you happen to hit

Hans Finzel

Yes,

Jonathan Hankin

all caps by accident, I'll think you're yelling at me. So, you know, it's,

Hans Finzel

yes.

Jonathan Hankin

like that. I think we really need that connection and so, um, change doesn't have to fail. But it does take intentionality. Um, and that's what my takeaway was from a lot of your things in this book was the communication is important, the intentionality at every aspect of knowing who's for you, who's against you, moving the process forward. You dedicate the book to dreamers, pioneers, and change agents. So tell me about, what were you thinking when you wrote that statement? Maybe you don't remember exactly, but what do you think you were thinking when you wrote that statement?

Hans Finzel

I was dedicating it to people like myself because I'm a dreamer. I'm a pioneer. I'm a change agent. Uh, I go back to when my board hired me to be the president. That's exactly why they did hire me because they, they had the foresight to realize we need a dreamer, a pioneer, a change agent, and, uh. I don't think they knew what they were in for, but you know, thankfully they backed me the whole time through all the, uh, myriad of changes I led. So that's what I, I I wanna encourage any of you who are out there, and you're a maverick, you're a dreamer, you're a change agent, you know, you're a Howard Schultz, you're a Steve Jobs, uh, you're the kind of person who has dreams of the impossible. Uh, and I encourage you to keep at it. You know, like the Wright Brothers. Don't give up on your dream. I want to leave you with two resources, uh, Jonathan, you listeners that are, if you were to ask me what are, other than my book, if you want to get it, doesn't matter, but. John Kotter is like one of the, the Harvard expert on change. He's written a lot of books. I would recommend the book buy-in, you know, B-U-Y-I-N, buy-in. And he, he goes through those, uh, why the eight reasons why, uh, change efforts fail and how to get people to buy into your dreams. Uh, the other one would be, uh, Patrick Lencioni, the Five Dysfunctions of A Team, because, and we've, we mentioned this throughout this podcast today, this issue of trust, that book. I'm teaching on it next week with a team of people who run automotive repair shops all over the southeast. And I'm what we're talking about is how to build trust. And if you don't have trust on your team, your team's not gonna work. So Patrick Lencioni, the Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Those are two books I highly recommend.

Jonathan Hankin

you. Any other, my, my last question, you know, for you would be, I was gonna ask you, what advice would you give a leader starting this slinky journey today? So, new emerging leaders, um, maybe they're in their first leadership role and they're gonna read your book and they're gonna read those other two books, which is great. But yeah, just any advice you would give them based on what we've talked about or where you are.

Hans Finzel

I would say, uh, you have to realize it's not about me. It's about we. You have to. Don't think you're gonna do it all yourself. The best thing you can do is build a team around you, a guiding coalition, you know? You are not perfect. You don't have all the right answers, but I find if you get a great team that trusts each other together, you can figure it out.

Jonathan Hankin

right.

Hans Finzel

So it's not about me, it's about we. Yes, I'm the leader, but listen to your leadership team and don't just be, uh, too aggressive and too obnoxious and we're, it's my way or the highway.

Jonathan Hankin

Yeah.

Hans Finzel

think teams lead much better, uh, than just individuals. So I, I would leave you with that.

Jonathan Hankin

Thank you. I think that's great advice and it ties exactly back into where we started, which is you need your a good team to also speak into your life, my life to say, Hey Jonathan, maybe we're getting off track here to speak those hard truths as well. Grow together and reach new levels. Well, I just want to thank you again for being on the podcast. It's been great.

Hans Finzel

You're welcome.

Jonathan Hankin

you on, and to our audience, I just would say if this episode added value to your day, hit like and subscribe, drop a comment. So we continue to grow this. I will put the links in the show notes to Hans's website, this book, as well as I'll put the two books that he mentioned. Those are great books to read. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Hankin, your change agent, coach. Keep questioning, keep growing, and keep leading change.