The Top 3 Mistakes Leaders Make with HR (and How to Avoid Them) with Risk Advisor Kevin Norton

Leaders get into trouble when they treat HR as compliance or as a fire extinguisher. Jonathan and risk advisor Kevin Norton outline how to make HR a strategic ally—reducing legal exposure, strengthening culture, and improving outcomes. 

Highlights

• HR belongs at the strategy table; involve them early on org design, promotions, and separations.
• Consistency and documentation are your best legal and cultural defenses.
• Proactive steps: annual handbook/legal review, EPLI coverage, secure files, manager training, clear complaint paths.
• Hiring/onboarding shape retention; slow down to validate culture fit and set expectations well.
• Volunteers need boundaries and training; protect confidentiality and limit scope.
• “At-will” isn’t a blank check—verbal promises and inconsistent practices create risk.
• Fast vs. deliberate action: consider suspension/investigation when appropriate.

Try this (leader toolkit)

• Schedule a 60-minute HR alignment: clarify HR’s role, escalation paths, and documentation standards.
• Audit your handbook and complaint process; update with local counsel.
• Train managers on a one-page documentation flow: expectation → observation → conversation → written note → follow-up.
• Add a simple PIP template with goals, support, timelines, and signatures.

Catch full episodes of video versions and other leadership videos on my YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Jonathan-Hankin

Download Free Leadership Toolkits → https://www.jonathanhankin.com/leadership-toolkit-library

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Transcript

Jonathan Hankin 0:00

Well, welcome back to another Change Agent Leadership podcast. Whether you're leading or growing a team or guiding them through, uh, the challenges of hr. HR can make or break your leadership. Many times, leaders often under utilize HR or misunderstand its role sometimes until it's too late, and then it's kind of an emergency situation. Today we're gonna uncover some of the top mistakes leaders make. With HR and how to better lead with HR with clarity, trust, and confidence. So I, I'm not an expert on hr, but my guest is today. My guest is Kevin Norton. He's an experienced insurance and risk advisor who spent years working alongside HR professionals and organization, especially in the nonprofit, faith-based sectors. He's currently a managing partner at lightwell Insurance Advisors of Arizona and. Utah Lightwell is the largest ministry insurance agency in Arizona. So Kevin, welcome to the podcast.

Kevin Norton 1:00

Thank you, Jonathan. Glad to be here.

Jonathan Hankin 1:03

So, as I mentioned for the introduction, I'm not an HR expert. So one thing I appreciate about you is that you approach HR not just as a compliance function, which many times it is, but as a strategic partner in risk management, conflict resolution, culture building, et cetera. So I'm gonna jump into and just ask you some questions and get you your thoughts on these things. Um, what would You say is. leaders often is misunderstanding about hrs role. All leaders just kind of, how do you, do they approach you as what's a misunderstanding Leaders have about HR and, and the role of HR in leadership.

Kevin Norton 1:42

You know, and you're right, I deal with a lot of, uh, nonprofit organizations and a lot of times. HR is, uh,

Jonathan Hankin 1:48

Hmm.

Kevin Norton 1:49

is emerging because they've, uh,

Jonathan Hankin 1:51

Hmm.

Kevin Norton 1:51

small and then they've grown, you know, and add, have had the need to add a number of employees. But the mistakes I see with leaders sometimes, uh, regarding HR is they don't see it as a vital spoke of a well run organization. Uh, a lot of'em will view HR as an administrative position as opposed to a leadership or. Even an executive position, they see them as, uh, paper shuffler and when in fact, you know, there's so much more to an HR department, an HR professional and HR director than just shuffling papers. Um, I would say HR professionals should be a, a vital part of the executive team of a organization and be able to speak into important decisions regarding hr.

Jonathan Hankin 2:40

No, that makes sense. I, you, you touched on it at the beginning there. That's a good point. Um, a lot of times hr. is added on. People start small, it's a small business, it's a small eng nonprofit, it's maybe a small church and HR is handled, you know, it's a side thing. It's like you have a couple employees, but as it grows, it kind of can grow into its own thing. And so a lot of times. Um, a misunderstanding there is, yeah. It can just take care of itself is what I'm hearing. That's, that's not a good, good thing. Another thing I've heard, um, is HR is just compliance. All they do is check boxes for us and keep us outta jail, which kinda like legal as well. I've had this conversation with lawyers as well, right? The lawyers just keep us outta jail, which is not true. I mean, that hopefully is, you don't get to that point, but. That is dangerous. I mean, how have you experienced that myth, so to speak, of? Well, they're just here to help. I mean, have you seen that? Get people in trouble?

Kevin Norton 3:34

Yes, I have. Yes, I have, you know, hr, um, an h what a, a lot of what an HR executive does, HR director does is legal and compliance. I would say, you know, maybe 50% of their job has to do with legal and compliance, but. It's much more than just legal and compliance. Um, HR directors, HR professionals are, um, always communicating with their leaders and managers within an organization. They're, um, teaching them, they're coaching them on how to deal with employees, how to address, uh, issues that come up with employees. Um, they offer great wisdom and uh, guidance and they can walk with the leaders and managers through these issues.

Jonathan Hankin 4:17

Yeah.

Kevin Norton 4:18

should come to HR before, you know, they start working on an issue before they start, you know, before they want to terminate somebody. They should always get, uh, HR involved. So there's a lot that HR can offer to the leaders and managers as they, you know, work with their employees.

Jonathan Hankin 4:36

Yeah, no thanks. I, sorry, my brain is just thinking. I, I'm like, I, I know we are gonna cover some things here, but um, you've said several key things. HR is part of the team almost, right? HR

Kevin Norton 4:48

Yes.

Jonathan Hankin 4:49

collaborative. Um, you bring ideas to them. I guess I have experienced both sides of that. So you do have right, good experiences and bad experiences. kind of in line, my next question is kind of, uh, in line with handling conflicts and consistency. Um, so maybe if you, I'm gonna ask this question, but I'm might add a little caveat maybe. How, what's, how do you see the importance of consistently handling complaints and things? From an HR perspective, and then how do you, I'm gonna add a caveat here. How do you handle it when an HR is not proactive? Maybe, you know, like just your thoughts of how to maybe bridge that.

Kevin Norton 5:30

Sure, sure. Um, I have a, a, an HR friend, um, HR professional friend. That, uh, she's told me many times. She says the HR department is not the principal's office. You know, don't send your employees with issues to me, you know? Um.

Jonathan Hankin 5:48

fair.

Kevin Norton 5:50

The leaders and the managers need to learn how to work with

Jonathan Hankin 5:54

Hmm.

Kevin Norton 5:55

deal with employees. Um, the leaders need to be trained on how to confront. They need to be trained on how to, uh, deal with an employees. It's, uh, having issues, have those hard conversations, you know, many times, uh, when, uh, uh. HR perf, or when a leader or a manager has an issue with an employee, it's because they're, um, the expectations that the leader and manager are, is expecting are not being met. And so the leader, the manager, is trying to bridge that gap and improve the, uh, employees, you know, performance. And the issue that I see a lot when it comes to, you know, I'm in the insurance business, I'm a risk manager. We insure a lot of nonprofits, um, churches, faith-based organizations, and the claims that we have seen, uh, Jonathan, many times have to do with, uh, an employee that thinks that they were being treated differently than somebody else. And so one of the main things that I, um. Um, hammer to these employers, to these HR people, to the leaders and managers is you got to be consistent on how you treat your employees. You know, if you've got something in the employee handbook, you've gotta follow the employee handbook. You know, the employee handbook is not, uh, uh, a document that just sits on the shelf and, uh, gathers dust, but it's a living, breathing document and you know that. Employee handbook basically talks about the culture of the organization, how we're gonna teach, deal with employees, but you've gotta be consistent, you know, with how you're treating your employees.

Jonathan Hankin 7:42

No, that makes sense. And I think, yeah, it's a collaborative effort there. You know, we're gonna get into some, um, challenges, mistakes, so to

Kevin Norton 7:49

I.

Jonathan Hankin 7:49

that you can make with HR And leadership. Again, I, what I'm hearing from the, the beginning here, Kevin, is it's a collaborative effort. It's not a handoff, right? It's not the principal's office where someone's in trouble. So now I'll let you deal with it. It really is a collaborative effort and I've had, um. I've had good HR managers and I've had some not so good. And, uh, right now I have a, I have one of my best HR managers, and I would say one of the aspects she brings is collaboration and proactivity. It's knowing her place, but also, um, knowing when to ask questions and are, are we treating this differently? Right? It's that are we following the handbook? And it's not interrogation, but it's, it's kind of bringing it back to the basics, so to speak, of are we following the guidelines? so that then I can answer the lawyer's questions of they're gonna ask the same question. Jonathan, did you follow the handbook or did you follow the guidelines? So, yeah.

Kevin Norton 8:43

And you know, hr, that's a good point. Hrs role is to, is to support both the organization and the employees.

Jonathan Hankin 8:50

Hmm.

Kevin Norton 8:51

the HR is there to serve the needs and goals of the organ, make sure the needs and goals of the organization are met, but they are also there to uphold the rights, you know, and needs of each individual employee.

Jonathan Hankin 9:05

Yeah, and I. think, um. Interest. Yeah, that's true. Because,

Kevin Norton 9:09

I.

Jonathan Hankin 9:10

I'm just thinking the challenges I'm sure you've seen on a risk side, I'm guessing. Tell me, Kevin, you can, I can be wrong. I'm just making this up on the spot here, but I think would think some of the risk here is, uh, when an HR person oversteps one of those two sides, they really are on a. Tight line there. They are support, because the first thing is to, what does the handbook say? Or what does the guidelines say or whatever, and not personally interpreting it the way they want to interpret it, but how does the company live it out and should live it out? then if it isn't being lived out and the employee comes to them, it's not really taking sides and trying to defend either side. It's more of understanding, well, what has happened and how do we move forward? Where a lot of times I've seen managers or HR people try to interpret things their own way or because they've made a mistake and not followed it, they've um, gotten in trouble and tried to just push it, push it on, push it to the side, and that's kind of where I probably You've seen the risk come in.

Kevin Norton 10:10

Yeah, they're trying to go it alone and there's no need to go it alone. You know, if you've got, you're gonna have complex, complicated issues. There's people, there's resources available too to help these HR people.

Jonathan Hankin 10:23

That's true. Don't go alone. It's true.

Kevin Norton 10:25

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 10:25

uh, let's, let's jump into a couple of common maybe, mistakes that leaders have made with hr.

Kevin Norton 10:33

Yes.

Jonathan Hankin 10:33

I've never made any of these. I was reading through this and I, I've, I think I've probably made all of them, but that's okay. I, the first one we're gonna kind of highlight is treating HR like a. Fire extinguisher, you know, um, only engaging, you touch this, only engaging HR when something's on fire. Um, a lot of times, I mean, I would think this might be majority of time happens a lot, especially for newer, but even seasoned managers. Um, so what are the consequences? Like instead of being proactive, maybe you can go through both sides. What's the advantage of being proactive in the consequences of reactiveness?

Kevin Norton 11:11

Well talking proactive and reactive. Obviously it's, uh, I would say it's, uh. Very, very important for an organization to proactively invest resources into having local legal and HR help. You know, there's a lot of resources out there because if they do that, then they won't have tore reactively spend. Important and necessary dollars to try to treat some situation. And from what we've seen over the years, if the organization, well, every organization is going to have HR issues come up, you know, even the ones that are doing everything right, you're not going to eliminate the risk, but you're going to lower the risk. And I can say at the same time as you're lowering the risk. The chant, the the, uh, um, if you have an issue come up and let's say there's a lawsuit or so where a disgruntled former employee is coming back after the organization. If you have, uh, proactively spent money on ha on doing everything as best as you can the right way, um, you're gonna be in a lot better position where the insurance company and the attorneys are gonna be able to, uh, defend you. And it's gonna be a lot easier than if you said, well, we never thought it would happen to us and they didn't do anything about it, then they're going to have to spend money. And probably will lose in court and have to pay money, and then they'll have to go back and retroactively fix everything and their HR department and their employee manuals and spend money. So proactive versus reactive, very important. And, and as you know, um, reactive HR is bad. Hr, you know, as we've talked about already, uh, you don't wanna be reactive. You don't wanna go it alone. So you wanna make sure you do what you need to do to better protect the organization.

Jonathan Hankin 13:06

No thank you. And I think, um, but I heard you say if I heard this correctly and I think it's true, is more proactive you are, the chances of, of, of good outcome. And the, the more reactive you are, the more expensive it could be if it goes sideways, even if you made a mistake.'cause we are gonna all make mistakes. Um, but if you are proactive in doing the best you can, that's what I heard you say. We're gonna make mistakes, but doing the best you can, identifying challenges and moving forward, um, is key. Yeah,

Kevin Norton 13:34

Yes,

Jonathan Hankin 13:34

just ignoring it. Not just ignoring it. So, um, well. A buzzword today, which has been a buzzword probably for the past 10, 15 years is culture. Um, it's not really a buzzword. Maybe it is. I hear it a lot, but, uh, it's defined many different ways. I actually did a video the other day on culture, but culture is very important and I think a lot of missed opportunities are had with HR and culture.'cause HR really does shape, or shape lives out some of the culture. So. do you see hr? And you can answer this any way you want, answer it any way you want regarding culture in hr, but, and risk even. But how do you see HR speaking into culture? Like whether it's from hiring well or firing Well, I mean moving people on onboarding effectively. I mean that really is the first impression. If not the second impression after the interview, maybe it's the first time'cause they contact them for the interview. how do you see hr, uh, shaping culture at an organization?

Kevin Norton 14:35

Well, hr, you know, definitely wants to hire the people that are good culture fits within an organization. Yeah. And a lot of times, um, with a lot of organizations, you know. They're just filling like slots. You know, they're trying to get employees to fill slots so they could continue to effectively do what they need to do. But we all know if you hire someone and they're not a culture fit, then it's gonna cost you much more down the road because you'll have to terminate that employee and then do the whole onboarding and training process. So it's very important. You know, I've been involved in a lot of organizations over the years and have seen employees that are great culture fits, and I've seen employees that are not great culture fits and, uh. It's tough. You don't always know. You know, the, the employee, the applicant can say all the right things, you know, to say that they would be a great culture fit, but sometimes you don't know until you actually, you know, put them out there, uh, into the job and see how they perform and then you find out they're not going to be a culture fit. But there are many things that an organization can do, um, in the onboarding process to uh, uh, ensure. Or raise the chances that the employee, they're going to, hi, that they're going to hire is going to be a good culture fit. And I think a lot of that, you know, is, uh, um, uh, using experienced people that, uh, um. Know the organization well, understand the culture, and, uh, can see, you know, someone I think, you know, this person is worth taking a chance on. You know, they check all the boxes, but in addition to that, you know, they seem to have the culture and they seem that they would be a good fit within our organization.

Jonathan Hankin 16:21

No, that makes sense. I think I read an article. Hmm. It's been a few months ago, but, uh, I was talking about hiring and, uh, just the onboarding experience determine. 80% whether a person's going to stay or not. Um, now you have to have a lot of other factors, but their onboarding, if it's like, here's your desk and read the manual and have a great day, um, that isn't quite going to encourage them to stay as much as understanding the values and the culture, um, and what's happening. Uh, so no, I I appreciate that. Yeah.

Kevin Norton 16:55

Many times, you know, and, and I've, I've, I run my own business also and we've hired a number of employees over the years. But many times in that, um, first face-to-face interview,

Jonathan Hankin 17:05

Mm.

Kevin Norton 17:06

you know, you can tell, uh, whether this person is going to be a culture fit

Jonathan Hankin 17:10

A hundred

Kevin Norton 17:10

and. In this day and age of Zoom and uh, you know, phone and so forth. I still think, and I tell my organizations this, I think you need to have face-to-face meetings and interviews.

Jonathan Hankin 17:25

I, I agree with you and I, I don't know what to do with that'cause we're still remote a lot and, uh, people, most people are coming back in the office. Um, um. So I have a 100% fail rate with Zoom interviews. Honest, I'm just being

Kevin Norton 17:40

I.

Jonathan Hankin 17:40

here. I have a, I, I hate to say it. I'm actually thinking back to other companies I've been to. I, you know, during COVID I hired somebody right after COVID, we went into Zoom then they were in person. Um, but. don't, I think I have a 100% fail rate, not like immediate fail rate, but after several months it's like, wait a minute, would've been identified if you would've been in person across the table from me and just talking more. Um, it's just so hard to know on a zoom call, so I hear you. I don't know what to do with that completely. think that's the ideal, right? I. would say that's the gold standard is in person. I'll, I'll even go a little further. What do you think? I, I think sometimes people it is, you know, it's always, well, you should be slow to hire, quick to fire. Generally speaking, that isn't always true. But generally speaking, I, I mean, what is your thoughts, I'm gonna throw just a little bit off here. Um, in the interview process, how many interviews would you say would you recommend to lower the risk and increase the reward for a cultural fit? Um,'cause most people only do one, maybe a phone interview and then a one in person, and then they hire and then they invest tens of thousands of dollars into this person. any thoughts on that process? Uh, number of interviews and what that could look like?

Kevin Norton 19:00

When we do, uh, in-person interview, you know, you're not only asking the questions and getting the, the answers that you, you know, they're answering the questions that you're asking, but you're also seeing their, um, maybe their maturity level, you know, you're seeing, um, you know, how they present themselves and so forth. Um, I used to, uh, um. Being an elder in my church. And, uh, we would interview prospective, uh, candidates all the time. And, uh, we would bring both the, the potential candidate and their spouse if they were married into the interview. And a lot of times you can, you can. I tell a lot just by talking to the both of them. You know when you're hiring for a specific position. Now I know there's rules of regulations and cans and can't dos with some of that stuff, but you're trying to see where they're at, um, on a maturity level.

Jonathan Hankin 19:55

Yeah. No, that's true. let's move on a little bit here. Um.

Kevin Norton 20:00

Yes.

Jonathan Hankin 20:00

Let's see. Any, well, from a risk perspective, so you're in the risk management business. Um, thoughts on, you know, the mistake of just the fire extinguisher being in that line here, being proactive to reduce exposure or protect the organization. Um, what are things that you, that managers can do to work with hr? Or with organizations like yours to be proactive to reduce exposure versus reactivity.

Kevin Norton 20:30

There's an insurance, uh, coverage, liability coverage called Employment Practices Liability, um, which will protect the organization for those employment issues that might come up from time to time. Protect them and defend them, you know, and there's a, a complaint or a lawsuit, you know, coming from a, an employee or a former employee. So when we're going through the application process, um, for employment practices liability, the questions we are asking are, um. You know, how many employees do you have? Uh, how many employees have you, um, uh, terminated, um, in the last 24 months? You know, what percentage of your total staff has been, uh, let go? You know, we ask questions about, uh, termination procedures. What do you do when there's a termination? Do you get your, uh, legal counsel involved before you do anything? We ask them about their handbook, we ask them how, um, when was their handbook last updated? You know, we'd like to see that handbook be continually updated,

Jonathan Hankin 21:35

Sure.

Kevin Norton 21:36

as, as, uh, things change and laws change and so forth. Um, but we also ask, you know, has that handbook been reviewed by somebody outside the organization, um, specifically, you know, your legal counsel again.

Jonathan Hankin 21:49

Hmm.

Kevin Norton 21:49

like to see your handbooks reviewed by an attorney, a local attorney that's familiar with the laws of, uh, of the state in which you are operating. So we'll ask those type of questions. Also, we wanna know, you know, who has access to the files. You know, are they kept secure? Um, you know, all those, like, do you do employee evaluations? You know, um, a lot of'em say, well, we're supposed to. But it doesn't always happen, you know? And so, you know, we ask those types of questions. We also wanna know is the organization, when there is an issue with an employee, are they documenting it and the employee file? We've had, uh, um, claims in the, you know, over the years where, uh, an employee, a former disgruntled employee, has filed a lawsuit or filed a complaint with the EEOC saying they were wrongfully terminated. And, uh, we'll talk to the employer, to the organization and they say, you know, why did you get rid of this employee? Terminate this employee. They said, because they weren't doing their job. It was for a lot, you know, bad performance and. Of course, you know, the legal counsel and the insurance company say, let's see the employee file, and they'll open the file and there's nothing in there and there's nothing worse than fi uh, terminating somebody for cause and then their file has nothing in it. So we say documentation, documentation, documentation. And then we also ask, is there a process for employees if they have a, a complaint or issue against another employee or against a manager? Do you have a procedure for them to, to um, register those complaints? So those are the types of things we look at beforehand when we're looking to

Jonathan Hankin 23:33

Yeah.

Kevin Norton 23:34

ensure, um, an organization for employment practices.

Jonathan Hankin 23:38

No, that's huge. I appreciate you gave everybody some great tools there some questions to ask and I think the key is, that's a lot for a person to do and that's why we use you. So, I mean, full disclosure, we use you, Phoenix Seminary uses your company to uh, ensure and risk management.'cause we, you. Don't think of all those questions, and having an audit is very helpful, um, in thinking through those things. And you really do. I heard you several times mentioned you want somebody local. You really do. Uh, don't wanna be using AI for this. Um, they can give you questions, but it's not going to help. I'm, I'm not an anti AI person. I'm actually a video that's coming out in a couple days on ai. I'm not against it, but you really do want to have someone you can call and check in with and go through that. Um, so thank you for that. I guess a follow-up would be, you know, Kevin, that's a very, it's all valid. do you, how would you, um, advise or coach people on volunteers in this same realm? Because that comes up a lot, uh, at non, at faith-based organizations, non-profits, or even at for-profits, you have volunteers that come in and help for events or different things. again, there's liability there. Anybody, somebody's under the umbrella, you know, the tent of, uh, I'm there with X company or X fellowship or church. So any thoughts on volunteers? Um, and, and working through that with hr?

Kevin Norton 25:02

Yes, and I will preface it with, uh, uh, comparing untrained volunteers with trained volunteers, untrained volunteers should not be in a position. Um. Or given autonomy over personnel and HR issues. You know, they might be wellbeing, they wanna help out the organization. They've got a great heart. But many claims that we've had over the years come from well-meaning volunteer leaders who think they know more than they actually do. And you know, HR seven years ago. Is a lot different than HR in 2025. HR is always changing, always evolving, and uh, you don't want people that don't know what they're doing, um, even though they're not costing you anything, you know, they're not on your payroll, but they can cost you.

Jonathan Hankin 25:57

Not

Kevin Norton 25:58

can cost you so. We would say we don't want volunteers also establishing policies. Um, a lot of times we see that, you know, when volunteers are involved with writing policies, uh, they could be policies that are detrimental because again, they don't know the, uh, legal landscape and what you can and can't do. And sometimes even volunteers with, uh, nonprofits or let's say churches or faith-based organizations say. Well, we're a church. We can do what we want. You know, we don't come under the law, which is also not correct. You know, churches still have to follow mostly all of the employment laws, with the exception of being, you know, um, they can discriminate on the basis of religion. So with volunteers, um, it's a lot of times, you know, when you're in hr you've got a lot of, uh, sensitive protected information. You know, you've got the, um, employee's, personal information, um, you've got medical information, you know, you've got their employee files, and so that all needs to be secure. And we've had issues with volunteers being loose with that protected information and then having issues down the road. So I would say an untrained volunteer. Don't use. If you have a trained volunteer, you know, the, somebody that knows, um, hr, it's fine to let them be a part of the uh, um, HR department, but they should always be under the authority of somebody, somebody else that knows what they're doing.

Jonathan Hankin 27:29

Yeah.

Kevin Norton 27:29

wanna give a volunteer total autonomy into.

Jonathan Hankin 27:34

That's good advice. Thank you. Well, we've kind of touched on this. We're gonna move into. another mistake possibly leaders make, which is not documenting and taking feedback seriously. So not documenting or taking feedback seriously. Skipping basically the boring documentation until it's too late. Uh, you've already touched on that a little bit. Um, unfortunately I've opened some of those files and they're empty. Which is difficult. So just, you know, a lot of it's easy for leaders to avoid hard conversations or failing to document performance issues. Um, which then leads to legal risks. Uh, actually cultural risks, I think and poor record keeping. All that is together. What, what? I know this is just briefly, but just your thoughts on this problem and some best practices or just how you would recommend baseline for new leaders, um, or leaders in general in this situation to take HR seriously and document well.

Kevin Norton 28:36

I think part of the process of training a leader or a manager is having a whole HR module, um, where they understand the, uh, um, the position that they're in. Um. What they're supposed to be doing. You know, they're supposed to be, uh, um, working with their employees, um, training them, you know, working with'em to improve their performance and, uh, that they need to know what they can and can't do. So I think a, a good manager needs to have a good training from the HR department and, you know, and again, it's a communication between HR and these leaders and managers. HR is always available. Say if you have an issue or problem, come to us and we can help walk you through that issue. But they need to be trained in, um, hr what they can and what they can't do.

Jonathan Hankin 29:30

I think a challenge I've seen, um, is a lot of times leaders are onboarded a little bit, but not enough. It's great to have a module. Um, but then I think the other part, I think, I think you'll agree with this, you don't have to, is that. Um, you know, new, especially newer leaders are always a little bit not sure where they stand. Like, did I make a mistake or what's happening? I think it's always important that you, as you mentioned earlier, it's not going alone. Having the HR with you, but also having another manager that's that's gone before you, I think is important to be able to speak into the cultural situation. Like, oh yeah, we had that happen before. Jonathan. Yes, he was late. X amount of times he, we was documented, we documented it. Here's what we did In that case, it is nice to just pull that up and to, um, to have another voice in it, so to speak, is

Kevin Norton 30:18

Exactly. You could see an issue with an employee and two diff two manager. Can handle it totally different, you know, and it is good to get counsel and, and, and see how other people handle the same situation or just being able to tap, you know, the expertise of another manager and how they've handled situations over the years.

Jonathan Hankin 30:39

I do wanna just turn this a little bit and on a, not that any of this has been negative, but on a positive note, I think, you know, documentation can be, uh, I, well I started this, this question with not taking it seriously, but I really, um, part of it may be outta fear or whatever. It's just boring. But I really do believe from I'm, I'm a coach as well, and I think it, from a coaching perspective, uh, as a leader, we're, I think all leaders are, coach should be coaches, but as a leader, as a coach, um, documentation is a great. Coaching experience if it's done Well,'cause a lot of people are just not self-aware that they're making mistakes. I mean, some people are obvious that yes, I'm gonna keep doing this'cause it's who I am. I have found the majority of people, when you identify with them a challenge or something they've been doing. They maybe didn't know or weren't aware of the consequences. It can be a great moment, um, with them and, and with HR to have a breakthrough almost, um, to document, almost a restoration. Um, applying a little bit of grace there, there is a consequence, but grace, I, I can see it as I see it as now sometimes you get it down the road just doesn't apply. You're too far down the road. But I really see it as, as a positive partnership. What have you seen, just your general thoughts on that.

Kevin Norton 31:56

Well, you know what I've seen a lot of times when employee, when a leader is having an issue with an employee. Um, you know, they, they talk with the employee. They say, you know, this is what we are expecting you to be doing, uh, in, in your job. Um, we feel at this time that you're not meeting our expectations. Um, what you're delivering to us is not, uh, up to what we expect. And then they just talk it through and say, this is, these are the areas that I think you're falling short in, you know, accountability. And, uh, they might put together a plan, you know, uh, uh, a restoration plan or a plan to, to, uh, get the employee up to where they should be. And I've even seen it where when they put these plans together, they're signed by both the manager and the employee.

Jonathan Hankin 32:45

Hmm.

Kevin Norton 32:46

So the employee is saying, I understand exactly, you know, what the issues are and you know, I will be working on over the next few weeks or months, I'll be working on improving that and bringing it up to where I think it should be. So I think accountability, um, is very important when it comes to employees and employee evaluations.

Jonathan Hankin 33:10

I, I think it goes a long way also, if you have A problem down the road legally, if you can prove that you had a conversation. I had a conversation with Kevin. We talked about this challenge that we were facing, Acknowledge that, yeah, maybe I'm not doing as well and here's ways I'm going to improve and work on it. It just helps, right? It helps from all perspectives to show that there was a bit of give and take and timing versus we discussed it and that's it.

Kevin Norton 33:42

A lot of times when you're dealing, you know what I see a lot in the, uh, nonprofits and with the faith-based ministries and so forth, you know, they, I hear them say, well, we, we treat everybody like we're family. You know, we treat our employees like we're family. And that's, you know, that can be wonderful. But there's pitfalls also when. And when you deal with family, you've got accountability issues with family, don't you?

Jonathan Hankin 34:08

do.

Kevin Norton 34:08

So accountability and job performance are not contrary to being a part of the family, you know, as some businesses like to call themselves. So, and you know, I hear, I always hear the term, um. Well, I thought, you know, you were a faith-based ministry. I thought, you know, you are a Christian ministry. Where's the grace? And uh, you know, a lot of times accountability is and can be a mechanism of grace because you're trying to improve them to, from where they're at, to where they should be. So, you know, being a family is good, but you, you know, there's still accountability involved with family.

Jonathan Hankin 34:47

I'm laughing on the family. I hear, I've heard that, uh, and I've heard the grace. I've heard I I've heard a lot. You and I have heard a lot, I'm sure. Um, but I just think of, of family, and I'll be honest, I, most families unfortunately have a lot of dysfunction. There's issues there. Why are there issues? Because people don't talk.

Kevin Norton 35:03

Yes.

Jonathan Hankin 35:04

they're not working it out. And that takes effort. And what we're trying to do with HR here is to actually work through it. people don't see that all the time, but we are trying to, we've invested in you. I've been invested in from HR perspective, so what is my role in this? And I think that's what we're trying to get there is part of leader's responsibility is to keep that investment going and not just dismiss. So that's my take, um,

Kevin Norton 35:27

Exactly,

Jonathan Hankin 35:28

Yeah.

Kevin Norton 35:28

exactly. And you're right. Talking is so important, talking it through, documenting. Very important.

Jonathan Hankin 35:34

Yeah. let's move on to another possible mistake HR makes, which is, or managers make with hr, which is bypassing HR on critical issues. I'm sure you've never seen this in risk management, but, um, you know, making decisions that affect people without hrs input, basically informing HR after the fact. Um. I mean, scenarios like, you know, we're gonna change roles or we're reformatting the org chart and informing hr, or there's a layoff happening and HR is in the announcement with everybody else. Um, or promote, I mean, the list goes on. I could think of a lot of different things. Um, I know this happened a lot during CID, HR was informed that everybody's going remote. Good luck figuring that out. So, um, and then everybody's coming back, so please figure that out. So, Um, just challenges you've seen and how to overcome that so that it's a strategic partner, not a road, not a speed bump, um, so to speak.

Kevin Norton 36:35

Uh, you know, I've run across, um, over the years. Um. A misunderstanding of at will employment.

Jonathan Hankin 36:43

Hmm

Kevin Norton 36:44

Um, you know, leaders will say, well, I can hire and fire at will. And so, uh, a manager or a leader will fire an employee and then they'll go tell hr, I just, uh, terminated this employee. And then hr, you know. Starts asking questions, you know, what's going on here? Why did you do that? You shouldn't have done that without consulting with us first. And the manager says, well, I thought we were at, well, we can hire and fire at well. Um, but there's such, um, there's so many things that a leader or manager that can do that can erode, um, that Atwell doctrine and, uh. I've had issues where a leader or manager has told an employee, boy, you're doing a great job. You've got a job here for the rest of your life. And basically what did they just do? They just made a verbal contract with that employee saying they're gonna be employed here for the rest of their life. So, um. It's true. There is a, you know, you know, many states are, uh, at will states, but you gotta remember, um, you can't do it without consulting with HR because again, you can make mistakes that could be costly to the organization. You. And a lot of times leaders don't understand, um, um, regarding, you had mentioned, uh, role changes or promotions and things like that. You know, we've had issues where we've had claims, um, from an a disgruntled employee saying, you know. I've been at this job for, you know, so many years. I've been doing a great job. I've got great evaluations, and then they promoted this other person that hasn't been here as long and is not doing a great job as I am. So anytime you do, uh, you're making decisions regarding changes of role, changes of jobs or promotions, you know, you need to make sure everybody, including HR is involved to make sure you're following the proper protocols.

Jonathan Hankin 38:42

Yeah, again, you mentioned this earlier, a lot of it's mindset, which HR is, a great sounding board if nothing else, right? They're a sounding board and, and, and if, and they're a sounding board, but also like your group, if you have a, a agent, a group like yours, that group, you know, many times. From, I talked to hr. HR is like, actually, this is a new one, or whatever. They might reach out to your organization or to our lawyers or others just to get advice because there's so many nuances and we just don't know. You mentioned it's changed from five years ago or seven years ago. It's changed in the last year. It

Kevin Norton 39:19

Yes,

Jonathan Hankin 39:20

changing, and so being aware of that, and I think it's just lower the stress level, that you don't have to solve this on the spot and get help and have someone safe to process with.

Kevin Norton 39:29

Exactly. Exactly.

Jonathan Hankin 39:32

if you talk briefly, just kind of the tensions between moving fast, because you do have to move fast and protect the organization legally and culturally, also not moving too fast. Some of that tension. There's a tension there, but there, there i Do you think it comes down to more, um, the how fast you move depends on the circumstance. Like we're, we're suspending terminating today or versus we're investigating and possibly terminating in two weeks. some of that tension? How can HR help with that?

Kevin Norton 40:08

We, we have been contacted over the years by a number of organizations that say this, this issue has come up with an employee and we need to terminate this employee now. Um. What can you do to help? You know, and so we obviously, we connect them with the HR resources. We can connect them with, uh, the different insurance companies we might be, uh, working with and help them walk through that. And a lot of times what, you know, and there are some instances where you do need to terminate somebody immediately, or maybe, maybe termination is not the, the, the answer for today. Maybe it's just a, uh, you're gonna put'em on leave, uh, for. A certain amount of time while, uh, the issue gets investigated and gets resolved. So there are a lot of, uh, of alternatives, um, to moving fast and thinking you've gotta terminate somebody or you've gotta make, take some action right away. You know, once you sit back and talk to other people, talk to professionals, they, they might find alternative ways of handling a situation. So we would say, you know. Don't move fast without first consulting other professionals.

Jonathan Hankin 41:25

I agree. Yeah, a hundred percent. That's good advice. Um, I'm just gonna ask you a couple questions, just general. what do you think great leaders do differently with HR versus just a regular. What would it would, the differentiator there?

Kevin Norton 41:43

I think, um, I've seen both, you know, I've seen both and, uh, I've, I've seen great leaders and I've seen bad leaders. I think, uh, uh, bad leaders, um. Do not take the time to invest in their staff, into their employees, their, um, they can be reactive, you know, um, if they, I've seen bad leaders, you know, that can, uh, lose their temper, you know, over an employee doing something, uh, um, the wrong way. And, uh. Obviously when you have those types of leaders, you know, the risk of, uh, um, claims or issues coming up with employees goes way up. Where I've seen great, great leaders, you know, great leaders like to involve a. Other people, they like to get, uh, um, advice and guidance and wisdom. They seek help. They don't go it alone. You know, great leaders, um, are concerned, um, uh, about their employees. You know, they, they, uh, will talk to'em. They'll see how things are going. You know, they wanna know, you know, how are things going at home, you know, they wanna be involved and, and just. Stay on top of it because a lot of times issues at work are happening because of issues and things going on outside of work, and great leaders I think, can recognize those types of issues that go on and can help, you know, work with employees and deal with it.

Jonathan Hankin 43:19

Yeah. great. Thank you. Another question would be, what's one thing HR wishes every new manager knew? Any thoughts on that? You could do two things, but what's one thing, HR, that you think HR wishes every new manager? I'll ask it two ways. Every new manager and or seasoned manager new. Yeah.

Kevin Norton 43:42

Well, I think, uh, uh, HR would say from the HR perspective. That, uh, they would tell every new manager that comes on board that, Hey, HR is your friend. Not your fault. We're part of the team. We're here to help. We're here to help, you know, with issues that come up, uh, with employees that you've got. So don't be afraid to, uh, talk with us. We're. To be cons, we're not to be considered an enforcer, that's just gonna put the hammer down on you all the time. You know, there are many ways to solve an issue and we're here to help. So I think a lot of times the managers just don't understand what HR is there to do. Many people think that HR is just there to hire people and fill slots, and, uh, as we all know, there's more, much more to an hr, uh, department than just filling slots.

Jonathan Hankin 44:34

Yeah. No, that's a great way to wrap this up is that is it's a hr, there might be a mindset in many people's leaders' minds that that's just what it is, hire and fire. Um, but there's so much more. And to take advantage of that, I'd recommend people consider what are the advantages? And even to me, with hr right, and say. Walk me through what is, what do you feel your role is and what's, what do you, what do you offer? How can we partner more? Again, that communication and collaboration can go a long way. Wanna give you the last voice here in the interview, so to speak, before I close out any, Kevin, thank you for being on, first of all, it's been great having you. Any final thoughts or comments you have in this realm of HR and risk management?

Kevin Norton 45:21

I would say, um, that. The insurance professionals, the risk management professionals, the hr, um, consultants and organizations are here to help. You know, too many times we get involved in a situation that has already happened. Um, we did this and now we're coming to look to you for help. Again, it's the reactive. Versus being proactive. So just to let the, the organizations, the nonprofits, the, the faith-based ministries know that there's people there that are available to help walk with you and help you formulate policy. You know, they don't have to start from scratch, go to the drawing board to figure things out. People have gone before and done it many, many times, and the HR people, the risk management people are always available to help.

Jonathan Hankin 46:11

That's great. No, that's

Kevin Norton 46:13

We would rather work. We would rather work with an organization in being proactive than always being come stepping in when something bad is happening.

Jonathan Hankin 46:22

Yes, but better for both sides. No, seriously. Thank you Kevin, for being on, uh, being here today. I do have information for Kevin in the show notes, so I would recommend reaching out to Kevin and his company for their services. As I mentioned, I, I use them currently at Phoenix Seminary and other age local companies I know use them a lot. They've been a great resource, I have to admit. Uh, usually it's a reactive, they're involved in the process. We do the audit, but many times it is, Hey, we're in a situation, will you partner with us and give us advice? And so I appreciate, uh, maybe not so much reactive, but, but being in the partnership with us to process and then giving us clear direction going forward. So I appreciate that. Again, that information will be in the show notes. If this episode added value to your day, hit like and subscribe, drop a comment. I would love to hear how this added value to your day and how you've partnered with HR at your organization to move it forward. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Hankin, your change agent, coach. Keep questioning, keep growing, and keep leading change.