Culture Matters: Interview with Jenni Catron

In this episode, I sit down with leadership coach and author Jenni Catron to unpack Culture Matters: A Framework for Helping Your Team Grow, Thrive, and Be Unstoppable. 

We explore why culture must be built by design rather than left to default, how leaders can honestly assess their current culture, and practical ways to turn values from words on a wall into lived behaviors. 

Jenni walks through her five-phase framework—Assess, Define, Build, Equip, Commit—and shares actionable tools (Values Grid, Employee Journey Grid) to embed culture into daily rhythms. 

Whether you lead a nonprofit, church, or business, this conversation helps you clarify, reinforce, and sustain a healthy culture.

Key Takeaways
• You already have a culture—ask: Is it the one you want?
• Early teams may “catch” culture by proximity, but growth requires intentional definition and design.
• Leadership leakage is real: what leaders do shapes culture more than what they say.
• Think patience and persistence, culture is a slow build that becomes momentum.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:49 Jenny's Journey to Leadership and Culture
03:19 The Importance of Intentional Culture
06:58 Assessing Your Current Culture
15:05 Defining Your Values
20:42 Building Culture Through Systems and Rhythms
25:39 The Importance of Patience in Leadership
26:39 Developing and Resourcing Your Team
28:44 Equipping Leaders to Reinforce Culture
32:12 Commitment to Culture Over the Long Haul
37:07 Leadership Leakage: Unintentional Cultural Influences
39:26 Starting Your Culture Transformation Journey
42:44 Common Pitfalls in Changing Culture
46:00 Final Thoughts on Leadership and Culture

Jenni Catron — Culture Matters: A Framework for Helping Your Team Grow, Thrive, and Be Unstoppable. Visit culturemattersbook.com for free resources and tools.

Catch full episodes of video versions and other leadership videos on my YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Jonathan-Hankin

Download Free Leadership Toolkits → https://www.jonathanhankin.com/leadership-toolkit-library

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Transcript

Jonathan Hankin 0:00

Alright, well welcome back to Change Agent Leadership and today I'm joined by Jenny Karin, leadership coach, speaker and founder of the Foresight Group. She's also the author of Culture Matters, A framework for Helping Your Team Grow Thrive. And be unstoppable. Today we're diving into what does it really take to build an intentional life-giving culture, one that doesn't just sound good. We all hear the word culture, and we're like, yeah, what does that actually mean? But how does it actually work? And so I'm excited to have Jenny with me today to unpack her book and to talk about that. So welcome, Jenny.

Jenni Catron 0:36

Thanks so much, Jonathan. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Jonathan Hankin 0:39

I am, I'm really excited about this topic. Um, I appreciate your book. I've read it,

Jenni Catron 0:45

Thank you.

Jonathan Hankin 0:46

and I'm going through it with my team as well. Um, but before we jump into the book, just real quick, uh, or as long as you want to take, I'd love to hear your own journey. Like how, what inspired you to, or what got you to this point to write? Culture matters.

Jenni Catron 1:02

Yeah. Uh, honestly, I sometimes joke that I've kind of accidentally became the leadership and culture girl.

Jonathan Hankin 1:08

Okay.

Jenni Catron 1:09

um, my, my first career outta college was in the music business in Nashville. I worked at a record company. It was like my dream job. I thought I'd always do it, and what I discovered, I actually loved. Was leading others, leading the team, building great teams to actually achieve the goals. And so I, I always say I accidentally stumbled into leadership and culture, but it became the passion point for me. And the irony of the story is that in my early days I was a very, I'm still am a very driven firstborn, a type overachiever that is like. Fixated on the goal and I was a bulldozer, like the VER early version of me, and I'm sure at times still is very much, when I get fixated on the goal that I want to achieve, I can miss the people around me. And I had a leader who said to me, Jenny, if you wanna work with people, you've gotta learn to love them, to lead them. And that was the catalytic moment for me of the recognition that people are the point that our leadership. The environments we create, the cultures we create, you know, the people are so critical to the work that we're doing. If we're not leading the people well, it becomes really challenging to actually achieve the missions that we're a part of. And so those early experiences were. Really formative for me and them, particularly related to culture. I went through a corporate merger at the record company and my experience with that organization went from amazing to awful seemingly overnight.

Jonathan Hankin 2:41

Wow.

Jenni Catron 2:41

And it was because the we, they, you know, they merged one division with another division and my team and my leaders changed and they weren't bad people, but the culture was radically different. And I remember at that moment, realizing. That the environment a leader creates has a significant impact on an employee's engagement. And so that was kind of that first memorable moment of, wow, I'm still doing the exact same job, but I'm now doing it with a different team. A different leader, a different environment, and my engagement was completely different. And so that just set me on this, this journey of saying, what does that, how, what do leaders need to do to create environments that great people wanna be a part of?

Jonathan Hankin 3:27

No, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. And I think everybody at some point can relate to your story in a sense of they've

Jenni Catron 3:34

Sure.

Jonathan Hankin 3:34

culture shifted. Now not everybody can relate to. They've been at a good culture. Unfortunately, I've worked with people and they're like, I've actually never experienced what you're talking about, which is sad, but

Jenni Catron 3:45

Super sad.

Jonathan Hankin 3:46

is interesting when it's dramatic and I really appreciate through your book how you talk about the different steps and processes. Um, so you talked about you were at a record company, you saw a culture that was different. Um, and there's different tensions there that happen. I think a lot of leaders assume culture just happens, right? In other

Jenni Catron 4:04

Hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 4:05

just grows. If we make. Put new furniture in, the culture's gonna get better or whatever. But you write that culture is either created or desi, it's, it's designed, it just doesn't happen by default. So could you unpack what you, what you, how, what does that look like for you and how have you seen that lived out?'cause it's not, it is not, doesn't just show up one day, Mr. Col, Mr. And Mrs.

Jenni Catron 4:26

Right.

Jonathan Hankin 4:27

walk in the door.

Jenni Catron 4:29

That's right. That's right. The, yeah. The reality is you have a culture, whether you've acknowledged it or not, right? Like there is an experience and, and you, you feel it as a leader. But what you're, the rest of your team feels may or may not be the same depending on the different circumstances. But there's a culture that you have. It's just a matter of is it the culture you want? And what often happens for leaders is. We, especially like if you're, um, a small team, you're, maybe you're the founding leader, you just expect it to be caught. You know, you just expect the things that matter to you will be, uh, the team will naturally get and they'll understand. And that generally is true for about five employees. You know, so if you've got a small team, everybody's with each other all day long, every day, they're, they're. Intuiting who we are and how we work together. That's my definition of culture, who we are and how we work together. So they're, they have close enough proximity to that leader to, to pick it up or to get it, or they self-select, or they get exited pretty quickly when they aren't a natural culture fit. So that's fine for a handful of people if you can count on everybody just kind of getting it and catching it. But the reality is, you know, rarely, uh, rarely do our teams stay that small. And as we grow, you still expect everybody to catch it, but in fact, they're a part of different teams. They don't have the same level of proximity, and so we have to get really intentional as leaders to define what is that culture we aspire to. One of my favorite ways to frame this is to say, what do we look like at our best? Right? Like, what do we look like at our best? What are those, those those things that define when our team is operating in a. Healthy way and helping us achieve the mission. And so, you know, a lot of times we think culture is, you know, the fun perks and the ping pong tables and the free pizza. When in actuality that stuff is like trivial. That stuff is not core to culture. What's core to culture? Is how we show up, how we treat each other, how we make decisions, um, uh, the expectations of what are our values and how are we living into the values that we've defined? Are we staying congruent with the mission and do we have clarity around how we all contribute to working together? And so culture really requires us to be, as an is as intentional with it as we are about our mission and our strategy.

Jonathan Hankin 6:58

I really appreciate that and uh, I actually had a client mention the other day, me a question, said, so Jonathan, I'm looking at a new job. it be normal for me to negotiate PTO. O versus salary. I thought of you

Jenni Catron 7:13

Hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 7:14

actually, culture.'cause I was like, well wait, you're looking for a culture that you do need money to live, but actually you don't, you don't want more money. You actually want more time off your

Jenni Catron 7:23

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 7:25

which is the culture. And again, what is the company culture and things like that. So, um, it's just interesting how it lives out in different ways and different people in, in their life cycles as well as they're moving through their, their career. just I guess. Before we get into the book, one last kind of thing to touch on. Like for you, was there a particular tension or a moment, you've been doing this a while with the Foresight Group at your company, you've been helping organizations for a long time. Writing a book is a big deal. So was there a tension or, I mean, maybe for you, you did it in a weekend, but I'm guessing you did it. Um, is there a a moment or a tension or. They're, oh wow. I need to get this out. Like what was that point that you realized culture just isn't a side issue? This is kind of the main thing

Jenni Catron 8:11

Is. Yeah, I, you know, I think it goes back,'cause in many ways people ask me the question, Jenny, how long did it take you to write the book? And I'm like, 20 years.

Jonathan Hankin 8:19

Yeah. Fair.

Jenni Catron 8:20

because, you know, it really has been a reflection of my own journey to figure out. How do you intentionally build culture and not just leave it to chance? And I would say the, the tension point or that key moment for me was, you know, I, I had gone through that corporate merger at the record company, had those two very distinct experiences of culture. And then I moved from there into, uh, an executive director role at a local church, very large church in Nashville, Tennessee where I lived. And I was, um. One of the first, like there were less than 10 employees and I was, I was taking on the leadership of the entire staff, so I was coming in kind of as number two in the organization. And I remember thinking that the, the organization was really young at that point, but it was growing rapidly. And so I could kind of see what was on the horizon of like, yes, it feels awesome right now.'cause they're young, scrappy, everybody's in it together, but they are on a rocket ride of growth. And if we're not intentional about our culture, it's gonna derail really quickly. And again, this is just me reflecting on, had just had those two stark experiences at the record company. So I came into that seat at that, uh, church, and I thought, I now sit in a place where I have disproportionate influence on the culture. Now, I believe everybody on a team influences culture where all contributing to it, but senior leaders have disproportionate influence just because of our role and responsibility. And that was the moment for me, Jonathan, where I was like, okay. I like, I could mess this up, you know, like I am now sitting in this seat and have this responsibility and I need a, I need a plan. I need to, I need to be intentional with culture. And so that was really the moment. And I would say everything that I wrote in Culture Matters was. A lot, you know, a lot of experimentation in those early days of trying to figure out, you know, how to be intentional with culture. And then over the years it really evolved into the framework that I, that I created. But it was that moment, it was that sense of, Ooh, I'm responsible. It's up to me. Like, and what am I gonna do with this? And, um, it, you know, so again, felt a little weighty, but I also am really proud of what it produced.

Jonathan Hankin 10:42

Well, thank you for sharing that. It. Again, I'm, I appreciate the book, and it, to me, it was obvious that this was not a weekend endeavor. This has been years of, I think, trial and error probably. I know I've grown as a leader from

Jenni Catron 10:55

Yeah. Yes.

Jonathan Hankin 10:57

people have been my Guinea pig, so to speak, but together we've learned and so I really appreciate that. So let's, let's dive into the book a little bit. I mean. You talk about five, you use your, uh, five phrase framework for building culture, which is access, define, build, equip, and commit. So let's just, we're not gonna dive deep into each one because, uh, people need to

Jenni Catron 11:18

Sure.

Jonathan Hankin 11:18

and we are not here for 20 hours either. So for the first one is this. Assess. Um, you talk about assessing, which is very important as leaders are listening to this podcast. You know, people need to assess things first. So how can leaders get an honest read on their current culture without putting people at edge or like

Jenni Catron 11:39

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 11:40

go way over here just because I feel like it, so, so, thoughts on that?

Jenni Catron 11:46

Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I love that you called this out. We have to know where we are in order to define where we wanna go. And so that's why we start with the assess phase of like, you need an honest reflection of what's true in your culture right now. And, and I, I always coach leaders like. This is a bit of a vulnerable first step too. So you know, like any leader who does the work, I'm like, I'm so proud of you, because starting here takes some vulnerability. It takes some humility to say, gosh, I really hope it's great, but I'm willing to find out. What's, because there's no perfect culture, right? Bunch of messy humans trying to do good work together. So there's no perfect culture. But a a, a great leader is willing to say, I need to know what's true. So I encourage leaders, you know, you do a, do a full assessment with your staff, like a full survey with your staff. We have tools for that that I recommend. I'm sure you, a lot of leaders have resources for that. But part of the key to this, Jonathan, is that it's all, it's a lot about our posture as leaders in our, are we demonstrating that we want to hear the truth? Because I've also had scenarios where a, a leader or an organization will facilitate a survey. But it's very clear that they don't actually wanna hear the bad news, right? Like, and so if that's already in your culture, then you're probably gonna get a very benign response in your survey that's not giving you good data on what's true. So the best thing a leader can do is, um. As assess their culture, whether it be a survey, focus groups, um, you know, different, there's different mechanisms for that. But come to that with an attitude of, Hey, I know it's not perfect and I really want us to be a thriving and healthy team. So I invite you to be honest about. You know the questions, the discussion so that we have a good understanding of what's true so we can live into the best parts of who we are. And you know, it's a you if, if you open a map or you open, you know, your maps on your phone and the blue dot isn't working. Like you can't map the route to wherever you wanna go if you don't actually know where you are. And so, but I would say. Great tools to help you get the information, but the posture of the leader is really critical in order to ensure that that, um, team members actually give you good information.

Jonathan Hankin 14:13

I appreciate that. I think what I heard you is it's, it takes humility, you know, to

Jenni Catron 14:17

Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 14:19

we

Jenni Catron 14:19

I.

Jonathan Hankin 14:19

about the culture and it's not. How we get there or what exactly it is. But we need to find out where we are as a place as a starting point versus where I think we should be. And I think

Jenni Catron 14:32

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 14:33

in this, um, we'll touch on the end. We'll put your information at the end for the Foresight group. But I think it's important. Sometimes it's people to realize many times you're so busy, you're just not qualified to do it yourself, and you need a third party to come in and help you

Jenni Catron 14:46

That's right. I.

Jonathan Hankin 14:47

and to be able to take the data in so people are maybe more safe. actually say, you know,

Jenni Catron 14:52

Yes.

Jonathan Hankin 14:52

I really like you. However you're doing

Jenni Catron 14:56

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 14:56

you might be more open to talk to a group like yours. Um, versus sharing that. I'm going to be the first one to see it. So I appreciate the

Jenni Catron 15:03

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 15:03

stage. Yeah. Well, your second one is define, you've moved from assess to define. You talk about transitioning, translating values. From words on a wall. I think we have all seen words on a wall. Um, and businesses, people, uh, actually walk by them and don't even know what they mean many times, but we wanna transfer

Jenni Catron 15:21

Right. Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 15:22

from words on a wall to behaviors people can live out. Um, so just kind of high level, what does that process look like of making, taking it from, you know, live your life to the best on the wall, to what does that actually mean? How do I actually live that out?

Jenni Catron 15:37

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 15:37

that.

Jenni Catron 15:38

Yeah. Yeah. So good. And this key, this is really key. There are a number of different ways to define your culture, but values are kind of that anchor point. And a lot of organizations have done some exercise in values. And like you said, it's like, yeah, we did that day with a consultant. We came up with some values, we put'em on the lobby wall, and nobody really knows what they mean. And so a lot of times when I recommend doing the values work, I get a little bit of eye rolls because leaders are like, we've done that. Everybody kind of makes fun of them, you know? But I, I push and say, Hey, I want you to do some more work on this because there are values that are driving how your team works together, even if they're not the ones that are on the wall. There are ways that you work and there might be great values and there might be some not so great values, right? And so what I mean by that is if I were to come to your organization and, uh, I get to the meeting and I'm there five minutes ahead, but the rest, nobody else shows up until five minutes later, that tells me that you don't actually value punctuality. Well, that might be fine. That might be a value you're not terribly concerned about, or, but it is telling me how you behave. Right. It is telling me like the habits that have become behaviors in your organization. So what I encourage leaders to do is like sit with, do some values work, and really, really distill the things that are really, really important to you. So for example, at Foresight, a key value for us is self-leadership because our conviction is. If we're not leading ourselves well, how in the world can we coach other leaders in other organizations? Like if we're not doing our work in growing and learning and continuing to get better, we can't with Integrity coach and develop other leaders. So that's a deep value. Like if you don't align with that, you won't last at foresight, right? Like that's really, really core. So. That's what I encourage leaders to do is like really distill and don't go grab the handful of, you know, excellence, integrity, like, you know, typical words. Go dig for the stuff that's really true. The stuff that like makes you frustrated or, you know, keeps you up at night because it's really important to you. So come up with those values, but then I want you to take it a step further and there's a tool in the book called the Values Grid, where I say Define the value. What is that value? Why does it matter? What's the belief behind that value? Like what's the conviction that is like, you know, makes you go, this has to be one of them, and then what are the behaviors, what does it look like in action?

Jonathan Hankin 18:04

Hmm.

Jenni Catron 18:04

give me, because, you know, I may have a value of, um, punctuality or let's say responsiveness and, and my idea of responsiveness is that you'll respond to an email within 24 hours. But another team member can go, well, you get to email when you get to email, right? Like they're gonna respond, but they have no urgency in their responsiveness. So every one of us brings different interpretations to those words when we hear them. So going a level deeper and saying, what does that look like? Give three like behaviors that help me understand this is what you mean by that value of responsiveness. And then the last piece of the grid is we say, okay, now let's find some fun language, a sticky statement or a story. That reinforces that value. So like in the value of self-leadership for foresight, our sticky statement is lead yourself well to lead others better. And we say that phrase over and over. We talk about it all the time. We share stories with each other, but you find language that makes that value a little more. Um, personal to your team. And what I find is that when organizations and when leaders take the time to do that work, and it takes time, like it will take several months to kind of distill those values and work through each part of that grid, but it brings it to life. It's like, I can't tell you the number of clients I've worked with, Jonathan that have done this work, and they're like, oh my gosh. By going to that level of detail on our values. Our team gets it now, like we have language, we have understanding, and all of a sudden it's starting to guide our interactions rather than just be this thing that sits on the wall in our organization.

Jonathan Hankin 19:44

Wow. That is so good. Thank you. I, I think I'm just gonna throw a question out for people as they're watching this to pause and think. You said a statement which hit me. Um, it's hit me before you said, I don't remember exactly what your phrase was, but you said, if you don't believe or live this out, you're not going to last here. I, I've heard that at a couple places that I've talked to people and I've asked'em, tell me about who you are. Like, tell me about your culture. And I'm just curious as people are watching this, just think about that where you work now or where you're leading as a leader. If you were to ask your people. What defines how you're going to survive and thrive here? Do people even know? just think

Jenni Catron 20:25

Hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 20:25

that. And if you don't, this is a great place to start, is to read this book and to dive into that because I think that's important for us all to know what is the key thing that, um, makes, allows people to thrive in the culture. Um, so I think that's

Jenni Catron 20:39

That's really good,

Jonathan Hankin 20:40

Well, you got me thinking, but I gotta move on. So build is the next one. Culture gets built in systems, not slogans. we all, I love slogans, but they only go so far. So

Jenni Catron 20:52

right.

Jonathan Hankin 20:52

about this in the book, you actually, one thing I appreciate about your book is you give lots of tools. So I think you did a good job. I've read several books on culture that are just high level, like, you know, we should all just love each other and get along and give free food out.

Jenni Catron 21:05

Right.

Jonathan Hankin 21:06

um, there's, and those are not helpful. And then I've read others that are just so textbook, it's like, well, if you do this, it has to equal this. And that's not always true either. I appreciate you did, I felt you had a

Jenni Catron 21:15

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 21:16

So this,

Jenni Catron 21:17

Thanks.

Jonathan Hankin 21:18

built into that about structures and rhythms. You mentioned in the last part you had a values grid, which we went through with our team or I, I'm starting to go through. So what structures or rhythms make culture tangible? What just thoughts for

Jenni Catron 21:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and this is the aha for me, and I think it's always, it's the thing that sometimes catches leaders, like kind of off guard is like, but you're building a system to support culture, isn't culture, relationships and how we feel and that warm, fuzzy stuff. And it's like, yes. And it actually needs a system to help reinforce it, right? If we're gonna define who we are and how we work together, what we look like at our best, we need to know how we're purposefully reinforcing that in the culture. So. One of the other tools in the, the book is called the Employee Journey Grid. I'm really fancy with grids, right? Like nothing fancy, but functional is the goal, but the employee journey grid and what I'm, what I'm looking for,'cause then a, a lot of times leaders will be like, oh gosh, another system. We've got so many systems. Well, what I'm looking for. With your culture operating system is I want you to actually just layer it into the things you're already doing. So in the employee journey grid, I say, okay, I want you to look at just those key moments in an employee's journey with your organization from interviewing and hiring to onboarding, to your meeting rhythms. And like staff events to your performance plans and reviews and to even how people exit the organization. Where can you reinforce your culture, your defined culture at all of those key spots? So the starting point is, you know, we just talked about defining your values and your values become kind of that anchor for the clarity of who, of your culture and looking at how are the, those things showing up in each of those key points of an employee's journey with the organization. So. Letting the values you've defined influence, uh, your interviewing questions, right? So as you're interviewing people, you're asking questions related to your values, so you can get a sense of, huh, do they have an alignment with that value? Are they gonna be a good fit here because they already have, uh, a high responsiveness, or they already lead themselves? Well, I'm, I'm asking some questions and I'm drawing some things out, so. Being purposeful to say, Hey, I, at the very beginning, I wanna give them an opportunity to understand this is who we are, this is how we work together, and I'm interviewing for alignment around that. Then they come on staff and you're, you're saying in the onboarding process, how am I bringing them up to speed on everything we define defined in that values grid? So those beliefs, those behaviors, those stories and language, like bring new employees up to speed on all of those things. Then in my staff meetings, where am I reinforcing the values? You know, am I teaching them out? Am I celebrating when people live them out? Um, and finding ways to reinforce those things. Performance reviews, I recommend part of your performance process is, uh, a check-in on their alignment with the values. Are they, are they modeling and living out the values? And if they're not. Giving some coaching around that. And then finally, even when people exit the organization, how you handle exits. Influences how the rest of the staff perceive your culture, right? If, if there's, if you know, and you can't share every detail around why an employee leaves, but you can certainly have a process for that. Employees can trust that if somebody exits, there's a consistency in how we handle these things that's aligned with our values and so. I gave you a lot to think about in a very, you know, hopefully condensed, um, uh, description. But you wanna look at all of those just rhythms of your organization and say, where can I build in? Particularly our values, but the culture we aspire to. So it's just showing up regularly and it's not, oh crap, oh wait, we didn't, we didn't talk about culture. And um, a you know, six months goes by and you decide to do a staff fun day or something, right? It's like you're just building it into your rhythm. So it's just, you're continuing to reinforce it at, in all those key moments.

Jonathan Hankin 25:29

Oh, thank you. That was a lot. However, you did a good job breaking it down and I think it just hit me towards the end. Um. This is called build, right? Build a culture

Jenni Catron 25:39

Yeah. Yeah,

Jonathan Hankin 25:39

anything is not fast. If it's going to last, it

Jenni Catron 25:43

right.

Jonathan Hankin 25:43

mean, I didn't mean that to rhyme, but it doesn't, it just doesn't, it

Jenni Catron 25:46

It worked well though.

Jonathan Hankin 25:47

work because it does take effort. And I think that is part of leaders. We want things now. All of us do. We want

Jenni Catron 25:56

That's right. Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 25:57

um, we can start it now. We have to re, I think what I heard from you is it takes reinforcement on a continual basis at all levels with buy-in because what if things are gonna hit the fan? Uh, every place

Jenni Catron 26:11

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 26:12

It's

Jenni Catron 26:12

Yep.

Jonathan Hankin 26:13

Um, humans are involved. Um, and

Jenni Catron 26:15

Yep.

Jonathan Hankin 26:16

Uh, we can help it go better if there's a bit of trust because people know, well, I don't know what happened. Like you said. However, if we lived our values out, I know

Jenni Catron 26:27

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 26:27

things possible were done and then the results happened. And so, yeah, you can

Jenni Catron 26:32

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 26:33

So, yeah, building takes time.

Jenni Catron 26:34

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 26:35

Well, tied to that very

Jenni Catron 26:36

I.

Jonathan Hankin 26:37

is the next one, which is a quip. I mean, you know. We talk, you talk about develop resource, your team to live out the culture. I think the phrase here I wanna talk about is consistently, you kind of hit on that

Jenni Catron 26:48

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 26:48

how do you develop and resource your team consistently? And I'm gonna add a little curf here, not intentional, but how do you do it consistently that. Doesn't burn people out. Right, because you want it to be,

Jenni Catron 27:00

that's good.

Jonathan Hankin 27:01

thinking. Yeah. I want it to be in all those things you mentioned. I'm not gonna go through all of'em, but it should be in your handbook, but it also should be in your

Jenni Catron 27:07

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 27:07

and, and this, and any offboarding and other things. But how do you talk about it so that it is talked about in a positive way, but it isn't like, oh, here we go again.

Jenni Catron 27:17

Again. Yes. Yeah. Yep.

Jonathan Hankin 27:19

I'm sure you've had no pushback, but I'm just Thoughts? Yeah.

Jenni Catron 27:23

That's so good. No, and that's real, right? Because it's like all of a sudden it can become routine and mundane if we're not careful with it. Right? And so I think that's where, as a leader, we've gotta be, you know, there's still an intuition and discernment that comes with leadership that you still have to apply even in this of like, you know what, hey, we've been doing values this way in our staff meetings for a year. We need to reinvent it. We need to think differently about it. What's a new way or a new approach to, uh, and so, and I, and you'll, you've read this in the book, Jonathan, but I encourage people, build a culture team so you don't have to be the only one thinking about this and, and working on it. Build a team of people from throughout the organization who just kind of have an extra get it factor and wanna contribute positively. And they're, they are a great resource for saying, Hey, the way we've been doing that. Is getting a little stale, can we do that differently? So, so utilize and lean into people and don't be afraid to freshen it up or change it. Just don't quit on it. And like you said earlier, the building takes time. One of the phrases I tell leaders all the time is patience and persistence. And this is again, like you said, it is, it is the antis of what we want to do as leaders. We want things now, we wanna move fast and, but culture is a slow build. It is patience and persistence and so. The equip phase. The other thing I will say about that is your leaders at every level, so if you have a. Other team members who are managing staff, making sure that they are well equipped to reinforce culture in their one-on-ones with team members or in just those micro coaching moments that happen, you know, in, you know, in real time in the middle of a project or in the middle of a meeting where you're leaders are looking for where they can reinforce the culture. Hey guys, y'all showed up today on time. Thank you for representing our value of, you know, punctuality. And, um, thank you all for responding so quickly to blah, blah, blah. So that leaders are looking for those places to just positively reinforce. Very anecdotally, like there, you know, it's like, it's not scripted, it's just they're on the lookout and they're coaching for what we want repeated in the organization. So the one, and this is, and I'll just take a quick minute here, Jonathan, and then I know we need to move on. But, um, the equipped phase of making sure leaders at every level, our reinforcing culture is where I'm seeing the greatest breakdown in the culture work that I'm doing. Um, part of it is that we have a lot of young managers in management positions, um, which I think always happens, but I think we're particularly in a place where a lot of people got promoted into management and, um, organizations are moving so fast that a lot of time we're not giving good coaching and development for people to have the skills to manage others. And that's putting ex extraordinary pressure on those individuals. And some of'em are opting out and going, I don't wanna manage people. Just put me back in an individual contributor role and or what we know from, um, Gallup's research for decades is that people don't leave jobs. They leave bosses. And so if our people managers aren't well equipped to reinforce the culture, that becomes a big breakdown in the culture. So that equipped phase has a lot of layers to it. Making sure that our leaders at every level are, are ready to help support it is really key.

Jonathan Hankin 30:50

I really appreciate that and um, I think you hit on a keep. I was gonna ask you actually, what's the weakest phase? I was like, should I ask that question? You

Jenni Catron 30:57

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 30:58

it or not weakest, but

Jenni Catron 30:59

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 31:00

tend to get hung up? Um,

Jenni Catron 31:03

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 31:04

it kind of brought to mind, and I'm just throwing this out. It seems, you know, when you want to build culture, it's a lot of work on the front end. It's a lot of

Jenni Catron 31:13

Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 31:14

It's like, where are we? Where do we wanna go? But once you get through the stages and you start to get to the build stage, and then you equip, and then when you get to the last one, which is commit, it seems it doesn't go on autopilot. But, um, you actually have other people then not just the leadership pushing it out, but you actually have people living it and,

Jenni Catron 31:37

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 31:38

together versus when new people come and you're telling them, Hey, well here's our culture. Actually other people are telling the culture. And I think that's a part leaders

Jenni Catron 31:46

Yeah,

Jonathan Hankin 31:46

you're, you're, you're paying forward on this one. I feel if

Jenni Catron 31:50

that's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. You get that flywheel effect of, you know, it feels really hard to get it moving, but then once you do, and then leaders at every level are reinforcing it, then it, it's kind of taking on a life of its own in a healthy way, right? Then you're just managing that momentum rather than trying to build it. Um, so I love that you called that out. That's great.

Jonathan Hankin 32:12

So the last part is commit. So culture is never finished. Um, well I think it's never finished'cause it always changes. I think that, or it tweaks

Jenni Catron 32:20

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 32:20

mean, it, you can write it and you can't just pull it back out in 10 years. So what, from your perspective, what does commitment look like over the long haul haul, like an organization? So like you mentioned, you might have a leader, a new leader

Jenni Catron 32:33

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 32:34

of like, okay, I'm having influence here, but. I am, I'm kind of like, wow. What's going on? So what does it look like? Commitment to them over the long haul to stay committed, but also encouraged? What, what thoughts on that?

Jenni Catron 32:46

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So in that, in the design of the, um, whole framework is more of like this flywheel. Like look and that it's like, hey, you do the assess, define, build, equip, and then you commit and you do it again. And so finding your rhythm of, Hey, once, and I recommend about once a year do a, do a full staff survey and assessment to just go, okay, what? What's true now? Now, the beauty of that is as you do the work every year, hopefully. You're seeing improvement and or you're seeing, you're getting new data points of like, oh, something shifted. We, we changed a leader over in this department and, you know, there was a PO positive or a negative impact on that. Or, you know, we had, um, you know, something external. Create some, you know, some problems. And, uh, we, you know, we felt that in the team this year and so. Just that regular rhythm of, Hey, let's get an assessment of where we are and then is there anything we need to clarify in the defined phase? I was working with a team, uh, a couple weeks ago, and they've done about 18 months. They've been working on their framework and so we did their second survey. And in the survey they noticed that a key priority for the organization had been showing up in Survey One didn't show up at all in survey two, and they were like, wait a minute. This is still a key initiative for our organization, but the, the team isn't talking about it. And the team wasn't talking about it because they had, it had kind of fallen out of like core communication from the senior leaders. And they were like, oh, we gotta circle back and we've gotta define this because this is core to who we are. So, you know, doing the, the, the process again, help them go, oh, there's something we need to find, we need to bring a little more clarity to. So we're gonna build that back in, and then we're gonna make sure our leaders are reinforcing it and we're gonna keep doing it again. And so what's actually fun about it for me is that I think as leaders start to understand the value of. Working the process and like that ongoing commitment to culture, they realize they just keep getting better intel that keeps making their them smarter and their team better. And um, and so again, if you have a culture team that's helping you, they're gonna help you with fresh ideas, there will be points that you recognize. You know what, we had a major shift in our strategy or our vision. And actually. There's some things we need to tweak in our values. Now, I don't recommend doing that every year, but usually about every seven to 10 years it's time for a values refresh. So, um, so there's lots of things that show up, but, um, it be kind, kind of becomes a fun discovery. Maybe it's just'cause I'm biased and I love this work, but,

Jonathan Hankin 35:28

baby.

Jenni Catron 35:28

but when you. When you keep working it, you get to celebrate the improvements. So that commitment to it, you, you see year over year, the progress that you've made, and then you also see the places where you're like, we can, we just, a couple tweaks, a couple refinements and we are getting even better.

Jonathan Hankin 35:46

No, I really appreciate that and I, you, well, you made me think I'm, I, I love podcasts because I love interviewing people'cause I get to learn and grow through it. And so you got me thinking. I'm like, okay, I do annual reviews on people, but kind of your annual check-in, if I'm hearing you correctly for culture is, it's kind of like a, an annual review for your organization for culture. You're doing the same

Jenni Catron 36:06

Totally.

Jonathan Hankin 36:06

And if you don't

Jenni Catron 36:07

Totally.

Jonathan Hankin 36:08

like if I don't do an annual review on an employee, I have no idea what they're thinking. I mean, I have ideas, but I don't really know. And we're not having that

Jenni Catron 36:14

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 36:15

It's not set us, we're not setting time aside to actually talk it through.

Jenni Catron 36:18

Yeah,

Jonathan Hankin 36:19

you do this culture as well on an annual basis, like the organization you're talking about, you actually get to sit down and say, well, why is it not a big item anymore? What changed? I've

Jenni Catron 36:30

that's right.

Jonathan Hankin 36:31

seen, uh, I think it ties into culture as well. It clicked. Um. I know currently with my organization, we have a, I think we have a good culture. I believe we do. But however, I notice sometimes the things that come up or tensions that come up are time delayed, whether it's several people leaving or there's, um, just something has happening, happened in society, and I notice there's a shift. I'm like, well, what's going on? People are most, well, you know, so and so left six months ago, and now we're feeling it or this happened. And so if you don't do these check-ins. It, it just kind of goes by the

Jenni Catron 37:03

It gives you blind spots.

Jonathan Hankin 37:04

spot. Yeah.

Jenni Catron 37:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Hankin 37:07

I love that. In your book you talk also about, um, leadership leakage where habits spill over into culture, um, in a positive way. What are some of the ways leaders unintentionally shape culture for better or for worse thoughts on that?

Jenni Catron 37:23

Yeah, well I, you know, I think it's that awareness of, um, what we do still speaks louder than what we say.

Jonathan Hankin 37:33

Yeah.

Jenni Catron 37:34

And so I think leaders just being conscious of that, of like, you know, the how we work, part of that definition of culture shows up in. And just what leaders do. Like people are still taking their cues. You know, again, I'm a firm believer in assess, define, build the systems, you know, do all the things we've talked about. But if leaders are operating incongruent with those things, they will follow what we do all day long. Like that will be what? That will be the thing that they actually.

Jonathan Hankin 38:02

Yeah.

Jenni Catron 38:03

or listen to. And so just that commitment to showing up and reflecting the best of your culture and um, and making sure that you are, you're conscious of how what you do is shaping the culture and for better or worse, right? Like, you know, and, and not to put like exorbitant pressure on leaders because we're not gonna get it right every day. We're gonna have bad days, but, um. But we, but even in those moments, then we come back around to go, you know what? I didn't show up as my best self yesterday. That wasn't in alignment with our values. You know, my apologies, you guys c you know, can you give me grace and, um, I'm gonna show up better today. Like the, the leader still has to model it, I guess, is the bottom line,

Jonathan Hankin 38:51

No, I appreciate that. Yeah, we're gonna, we're going to leak period.'cause we we're humans, we express things, but we want it to be positive culture and like you said, what we see. Well, so, so a new manager or in a seasoned leader is listening to this and they're like, well, this is good. Um, but our culture has cracks because we haven't looked

Jenni Catron 39:11

Sure.

Jonathan Hankin 39:12

for a while. would you, where would you be? Where should they begin? Um, tomorrow or Monday. So, or whatever day this comes out. Where would they begin the new week in their life to start their culture of Travels journey?

Jenni Catron 39:26

Yeah, the, the first thing that I would say very simply is just reflect for a moment and say, what does our culture look like at its best? Like, what's the best of us? And, and show up committed to just start living into that. Because you know what happens is if our culture's not in a great spot, we kind of start to, um. Maybe get slack on some of our commitments to, well, it just feels impossible. So I'm starting to not show up at, at my, at my best either. Right. So I would say the first simple thing is like, hey, just what do we look like at our best? And how can I start reflecting that? Even if it feels very, um, uh, feels like an outlier right now. But then the second thing I would say is to. Um, work on how can I assess this? So just that commitment to, you know, what we're gonna, but we're gonna commit to it, it matters. It's worth it. It's not overnight, but I'm gonna commit to this process. So, um, and then of course, beginning with the assess phase of, um, of digging into where can I start? Getting good understanding and, and what this might be, Jonathan, and, and I'm with you. I think, um, doing a, a, um, full blown assessment using a third party so you can really get good intel is really helpful. But you as a leader could go in tomorrow to a couple of your key leaders, and I would say, when I say key leaders. Not all your exec team. Like go find a couple of really, um, thoughtful, um, some of your best contributors and just say, Hey, I'm curious, like what's it. What, what's it feel like to work here right now? What's the best of our culture? What's the worst of our culture? And you can just get some anecdotal feedback from a couple of key people to give you an idea of where are we now? Um, and, and then of course, you know, start working the process.

Jonathan Hankin 41:21

Yeah. No, I like that. I think, uh, what I heard you say at the end there is so key throughout your entire, as I read your book, which is we need to have a curiosity mindset through all of this. We wanna be curious and, and like, Hey, where are we? What's happening? also mentioned something. Um, this did, we didn't get here overnight, wherever your person's culture is. It didn't arrive overnight. It was shaped over years.

Jenni Catron 41:42

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 41:43

time to assess and time to, um, build. To, to dig out if you will, might be the wrong phrase there. But I just encourage people as you're listening, if you're like, wow, I wish that was true of my culture, can have an impact. You do have an impact. And it's not overnight. This is no silver

Jenni Catron 42:01

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 42:01

but there is systems in place and people to help just like Jenny and her team who can help you. Um, we're just gonna be wrapping up here soon, I think, you know, just a couple at the end for me. I guess, uh, I'll throw a little bit of a different question at you. You know what, what's one thing leaders often, um, would you say struggle with? So, or what do they get wrong when they're trying to change the culture? So what are some maybe a flag or two just to identify, I know you kind of touched on it, like, you know, be inquisitive is a positive side. Um, what

Jenni Catron 42:33

Right.

Jonathan Hankin 42:34

just a thought on a couple things to maybe avoid, um, when working on changing the culture.

Jenni Catron 42:42

Yeah. Yeah. And you hit on this a little bit, but um, not. Assuming it's a, like a, uh, episodic thing that, you know, so I'll give you an example. I had, uh, a organization I was working with, we got back, their culture survey wasn't great, and the senior leader looked at the HR director and said, Hey, can you go do a training day and address this? And I was like, okay, we got a little work to do. Um, because it isn't an overnight fix. And again, you, you alluded to this. It's, it's that, that recognition of patience and persistence. So my coaching would be when leaders get impatient and want a quick fix.

Jonathan Hankin 43:24

Yeah.

Jenni Catron 43:25

because what that often does is, I can't tell you the number of times where, when a culture's not great and the team doesn't feel terribly connected, and then a leader or a exec team will push a like big staff fun day, an outing or. You know, um, you know, happy hour after work and everybody's like, it's just another work thing I have to do. Like, they don't see it as a positive. They just see it as another thing they need to do. So I think being impatient about the process is important. Um, and um, and then I think when we, um, in some way communicate. Our dis our frustration or dissatisfaction with the culture. Like I think sometimes we as leaders, like we may not say it out loud, but our face might say it when we lack hope or belief in our team, uh, that can be, um. A challenge to helping us lead the culture. And we all have those moments. So I'm not like, I'm like,

Jonathan Hankin 44:26

no.

Jenni Catron 44:27

feel it, we experience it, we wrestle with it, but we've gotta figure out how to deal with that behind the scenes and, and show up with a hopeful, um, uh, positive, um, uh, belief in our team.

Jonathan Hankin 44:41

No, thank you. I appreciate that. And I think that's, it goes back, you just mentioned a little bit ago, you know, um, as leaders, we do influence people by our actions. We're being seen, we're being watched,

Jenni Catron 44:53

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 44:54

so we do have to be careful, but yet we don't want to overreact to that. So I really appreciate your, your

Jenni Catron 44:59

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 44:59

that. So thank you for that. And I think also just a reminder that. Um, for all leaders that are listening to this, whether you're in management and you're just new to management and you're gonna become a leader, uh, and you're moving up and whatever. Um, for me, as I read your book, Jenny, I think one of the key things, a reminder, you weren't implicit about this, but I think a key is. We also need to, uh, look at ourselves and say, where am I in this process? And do I

Jenni Catron 45:25

That's right.

Jonathan Hankin 45:27

And so I just encourage people as you're watching this, as you go through the book, if Jenny and her team can be of help for that as well to reach out. Because a lot of times senior leaders are like, wow, I need to solve this. And you mention this, this is not a one person job, it's a team effort. Um, and. And if you don't have a team, um, get help. Or if you don't have a safe team, that's another, I've talked about that in different episodes. You need safe people that

Jenni Catron 45:52

Hmm.

Jonathan Hankin 45:52

work with. So there's different stages. So as you're listening to this episode, I hope it's encouraging that there is help out there. You're not on your own. well, Jenny, I appreciate you being on any, for you, just how would you like to wrap this up? Your closing thoughts on culture and the Foresight grid?

Jenni Catron 46:10

Yeah. Well first of all, Jonathan, thanks for having the conversation and I hope we haven't overwhelmed all of you listening today. Because here's the beauty of this, and this is what I would love for to hear, is that. Like leadership is such a gift. Like the, the privilege of changing and affecting the lives of the people that we're entrusted to lead like there is, like it is such a sacred work to be able to lead others and help shape their experiences and their growth and their development, and it is so absolutely rewarding. To lead a team that is aligned in working well together, because when they are, our ability to accomplish the mission is just exponentially greater. So I hope you hear the vision for this work and the power of it. It is patient and persistent work. Like it isn't an overnight fix, but it is absolutely so worth it and so rewarding because our lives are too sacred to squander in a place that drains the life out of us, right? Like for every one of us. And so as a leader, if your team is not aligned, you. Feel that, like that's a drain, it wears on you. So this work is so meaningful, it's so worth it. Um, but, and it, and it starts with just even that just commitment to say, you know what? I'm gonna lean into this. I don't, I'm not gonna fix it overnight, but I'm gonna lean into it and I promise you'll start feeling the momentum of it. So, um, as Jonathan said, our team loves this work. We'd love to be a resource, and so any way we can serve you the book. Unpacks it all like it really does give you the framework, but then of course we've got great resources to support you.

Jonathan Hankin 47:40

Well, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. I mean, this has been such a valuable conversation for me. I know it will be for our listeners. Thank you for reminding me that culture doesn't happen by accident. It's actually built by design. I appreciate that. And just a couple calls to action. If you're, uh, listening to this podcast or watching it on YouTube visit, uh, Jenny's, uh, website, go to culture matters book.com for resources. Also, I'm just gonna encourage you to take a moment, reflect what's one behavior, a modeling that shapes. Culture today, or what do I need to change in my culture? What would that look like? And then commit to getting the book and read it. Um, if this episode challenged or encouraged you, take a few moments to reflect, um, what you want to do and leave a comment. I would love to follow up with you. You can find Jenny's book I mentioned, culture Matters and Resources on her website. That'll be in the show notes below if this episode added value. Please hit like and subscribe and share with somebody that can help them add culture value to their life as well. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Hankin, your change agent, coach. Keep questioning, keep growing, and keep leading change.