Behind the Bloodstains
Behind the Bloodstains uncovers the terrifying stories of serial killers you've never heard of, diving deep into their crimes, motives, and the investigations that almost forgot them. This podcast brings chilling, true crime storytelling like never before.
Behind the Bloodstains
Unmasking Carl Panzram: History's Forgotten Monster
Carl Panzram remains one of history's most fascinating yet forgotten monsters – a methodical killer whose path from abused child to international murderer exposes critical failures in our justice system that still resonate today.
Born to Prussian immigrants in 1891 Minnesota, Panzram's life trajectory was forever altered when, at just 11 years old, his family sent him to the Minnesota State Training School. Far from rehabilitation, this institution subjected him to systematic physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. In his own chilling words, this was where he "learned to hate," developing a worldview that would fuel decades of escalating violence.
What makes Panzram's case uniquely valuable is the extraordinary documentation of his crimes and psychology. After being arrested in 1928, he encountered prison guard Henry Lesser, whose simple act of kindness – giving Panzram a dollar for tobacco – prompted the killer to produce detailed autobiographical accounts of his life and crimes. These writings reveal a man of surprising intelligence and self-awareness who claimed responsibility for 21 murders across multiple continents, including a horrific incident in Angola where he executed six men after hiring them as hunting guides. Perhaps most remarkably, he successfully burglarized former President William Howard Taft's home, stealing jewelry and a gun he would later use in other crimes.
Panzram's story challenges us to examine how systems meant to reform troubled individuals can instead create monsters. His case represents a perfect storm of childhood trauma, institutional abuse, and philosophical darkness that culminated in a man who welcomed his own execution in 1930, spitting in his executioner's face with his final breath. For criminal psychologists, prison reformers, and anyone interested in the darkest corners of human behavior, Panzram's story offers invaluable insights into cycles of violence that, tragically, continue to this day. Subscribe now to explore more forgotten stories that illuminate the shadows of criminal history.
Some serial killers make the headlines, but the most terrifying ones lurk in the shadows. Their stories left untold. Welcome to Behind the Bloodstains, where we uncover the dark and forgotten cases of history's most elusive murderers, from chilling crime scenes to the twisted minds behind them. We dive deep into the stories that never got their spotlight until now, because every bloodstain has a story and some are still waiting to be uncovered.
Speaker 2:This podcast contains disturbing content that some listeners may find upsetting. The following episode includes descriptions of true crimes, violence and discussions of serial killers. Listener discretion is strongly advised. If you're sensitive to these topics, you may want to skip this episode.
Speaker 3:So I've got something super interesting lined up for today's episode of Behind the Bloodstains, and I literally couldn't sleep last night thinking about it. You know how we've covered some pretty dark stuff before right, but this one, this one's different.
Speaker 4:Oh, you're not kidding. When you told me who we'd be covering today, I dove straight into the research because, like this case is absolutely fascinating, we're talking about Karl Pansrum and, trust me, he's probably one of the most well let's just say complex and disturbing criminals we've ever discussed.
Speaker 3:I know you've done tons of research on this and I've got so many questions because, like, I've only scratched the surface, but what really caught my attention was the way he ended up documenting everything that's actually one of the most incredible parts of this whole story.
Speaker 4:we're dealing with someone who not only committed these horrific crimes, but actually wrote about them in detail, and and what makes this case so unique is that we have this first-hand account of his thoughts, his motivations, everything.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, I can't wait to get into all of that Like hmm, where do we even start with someone like Karl Pansrum?
Speaker 4:Well, I think we need to start at the very beginning because, trust me, every single part of his story plays into what he eventually became. And it's not just about the crimes, it's about how society, institutions and personal choices all kind of created this perfect storm. So what we're looking at here is a childhood. That's just well, it's absolutely devastating. Carl Pansrum was born in Minnesota right around 1891, and from day one I mean literally from the beginning life was incredibly tough for him.
Speaker 3:Like um what kind of environment was he growing up in?
Speaker 4:So he was born into this immigrant family right Prussian immigrants and they were living on this farm in Minnesota and things were just. They were rough. His father basically abandoned the family when Karl was really young, leaving his mom to try and raise six kids on her own, and they were living in complete poverty.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, that must have been so hard on all of them.
Speaker 4:Exactly, and here's where things start getting really dark. By the time he was eight years old, like just a little kid, he was already showing signs of well troubled behaviors and instead of getting help, you know what happened.
Speaker 3:At age 11, his family sent him to this place called the Minnesota State Training School. Wait, at 11 years old, what kind of place was this training school?
Speaker 4:That's the thing. It wasn't really a school in the way we think of schools. It was basically a reform institution. And what happened to him there it's just absolutely horrific. The staff there. They would beat these kids regularly. They were talking about physical abuse, emotional abuse and Well, there was sexual abuse too.
Speaker 3:That's just terrible. How long was he there for?
Speaker 4:He was there for several years and it's where he first experienced what he later called being reformed. But here's the thing that's really crucial to understand the reform school didn't actually reform him at all. Instead, it's where he learned to hate Like really hate. He later wrote that this is where he learned that the only way to deal with people was through violence.
Speaker 3:So basically the place that was supposed to help him.
Speaker 4:Exactly. It completely transformed him and not in any way that was positive. The abuse was systematic, it was constant and it literally shaped his entire worldview, like we're talking about a child who went in with problems and came out completely hardened. And what's really telling is that this wasn't just Pansrom's account. There were later investigations that confirmed just how brutal these reform institutions were.
Speaker 3:Um, what happened after he got out?
Speaker 4:So, after he was released, he was just got completely different. He started committing more serious crimes, starting with burglary and theft. But here's what's really significant he was carrying all this rage, all this hatred from his experiences and the thing is well, this was just the beginning of what would become a really long, really dark path.
Speaker 3:So, um, what kind of crimes are we talking about here? Like when did things start getting really serious?
Speaker 4:Well, after leaving the reform school, panzrum started with break-ins and theft. But here's the thing he was incredibly mobile and theft. But here's the thing he was incredibly mobile, like he'd commit crimes in one state, move to another, change his name and just keep going. He was really methodical about it.
Speaker 3:Wow, so he was actually pretty organized then.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, and what's really fascinating is that he managed to escape from pretty much every prison they put him in, like there was this one time in Montana. He broke out of jail, stole the warden's gun and money and then get this he actually used the warden's own money to buy drinks at local bars.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, that's actually kind of Bold.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that was just the beginning. He had this pattern where each time he'd escape, his crimes would get more violent. It's like every time he went through the prison system he came out more hardened, more angry.
Speaker 3:So when did things start to you know, escalate beyond just theft?
Speaker 4:That's a dark turn, and it happened gradually. By 1920, he was doing more than just stealing. He started carrying a gun regularly and his robberies became more violent. He'd beat and sodomize his victims and well, he started viewing violence as this tool of power. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Um, that's really disturbing. Was there like a specific moment when things changed?
Speaker 4:There was this one incident that really marked the shift. After escaping from prison in Oregon, he burned down the prison chapel. I mean, we're talking about $100,000 in damage in 1920s money, and here's the thing that's really crucial Quote. He later said he did it specifically as revenge against organized religion, which he blamed for a lot of his early suffering.
Speaker 3:At the reform school.
Speaker 4:Exactly right. And from that point on, his crimes just they became more and more violent. He started targeting anyone he saw as representing authority or power. The thing is, he wasn't just acting randomly. Every crime, every act of violence, it was all tied to this deep-seated hatred that had been building since his childhood.
Speaker 3:So he was like targeting specific types of people.
Speaker 4:In a way, yes, but it was getting less and less discriminant. See, by this point, his hatred had become so, so all-encompassing, that practically everyone was a potential target, and what's really chilling is how calculating he became. Each crime was like building on the last one, getting more sophisticated, more violent.
Speaker 3:And then what happened, Like where did he go from there?
Speaker 4:So this is where things get really intense. In 1920, panzrum actually managed to get work as a merchant seaman, and that's when his crimes went international. He worked his way to Africa, specifically Angola, and look what happened. There is just… it's absolutely horrific. So in Angola, he hired six local men to help him hunt for crocodiles right, but that was just a cover. He got them drunk and then… he murdered all of them, just executed them one by one, and the thing that's really chilling is how he described it later in his confessions. He was just… completely matter-of-fact about it.
Speaker 3:That's… that's absolutely terrifying. Like six people at once.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and here's the thing that wasn't even close to the end. After Africa, he started traveling all over the world. He later claimed that he committed murders in Africa, south America and all across Europe. We're talking about possibly dozens of victims.
Speaker 3:Were all these claims like verified.
Speaker 4:Not all of them, but enough were confirmed to make his other confessions pretty credible. See, Pan's Room had this really unique thing about him he was brutally honest, like when he confessed. He wasn't trying to brag or exaggerate. He was brutally honest, like when he confessed. He wasn't trying to brag or exaggerate, he was just telling it exactly as it happened.
Speaker 3:So what kind of um, what sort of things was he doing during this time?
Speaker 4:Well, besides the murders, he was committing robberies, burglaries and you know what's really fascinating? In a horrible way, he actually managed to rob William Howard Taft's home in New Haven. Like the former President of the United States, he stole jewelry, bonds and a .45 caliber revolver.
Speaker 3:Wait, seriously, the actual President.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, and what he did with those stolen items is just. It's like a perfect example of how he operated A or Y. He used the money from selling Taft's possessions to buy a yacht, the Akista, and then he started using that yacht to rob other boats and commit more murders. It's like each crime was just feeding into the next one.
Speaker 3:How how is he getting away with all this?
Speaker 4:That's the thing. He was incredibly smart and methodical. He kept moving, changing his name, switching between countries, and remember this was the 1920s. No DNA evidence, no international databases, very little communication between law enforcement agencies. He'd commit crimes in one place and just vanish.
Speaker 3:And during all this time, like was he showing any remorse at all.
Speaker 4:Not even slightly. In fact, he was developing this really dark philosophy about humanity. He would later write that during this period, every murder, every violent act just reinforced his belief that all humans were evil and deserved to suffer. And the scary part is, he was totally lucid. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Speaker 3:So what finally brought all this to an end?
Speaker 4:Well, in 1928, panzerum got caught during a burglary in Washington DC, and that's when things took this really interesting turn. Like this is where we start seeing a different side of his story, because he met someone who well, who actually treated him like a human being.
Speaker 3:Wait, who was that?
Speaker 4:That would be Henry Lesser, a guard at the Washington DC jail. And here's the thing Lesser did something that nobody had ever done before. He showed Panzrum actual kindness, like he gave him a dollar to buy tobacco and just talked to him, treated him with respect.
Speaker 3:And did that Like. Did that change anything?
Speaker 4:It absolutely did. See, panzrum was so moved by this simple act of kindness that he started opening up to Lesser, and I mean really opening up. He began writing these incredibly detailed autobiographical accounts of his life and crimes. The writings were just brutally honest and totally uncensored what kind of things did he write about?
Speaker 4:so the writings were well, they were intense. He documented everything his childhood, the abuse he suffered, every crime he committed. And the thing is he wasn't trying to justify anything, he wasn't looking for sympathy, he was just laying it all out there, raw and unfiltered. That must have been really hard to read. Oh, absolutely. And you know what's really fascinating? His writing style was incredibly articulate. Like for someone who had minimal formal education, he had this really powerful way of expressing himself. He wrote things like In my lifetime I have murdered 21 human beings, I have committed thousands of burglaries, robberies, larcenies, arsons and, last but not least, I have committed sodomy on more than 1,000 male human beings.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, and he was just just totally upfront about all of it.
Speaker 4:Completely. And here's another interesting thing During his time in various prisons, he became this sort of well infamous figure. The guards knew him as this incredibly dangerous prisoner, but also as someone who was terrifyingly intelligent. He'd engage in these philosophical discussions about human nature, society, religion, all while being one of the most violent inmates they'd ever encountered.
Speaker 3:So like did his relationship with Lesser continue.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it did right up until the end. Lesser actually kept all of Panzrum's writings, and thank goodness he did, because they've become some of the most important documents we have for understanding the criminal mind. They're just completely unique in terms of their honesty and self-awareness.
Speaker 3:And was he writing all this from one prison or?
Speaker 4:Actually, he was transferred around quite a bit. He spent time in multiple facilities, but the most significant was Leavensworth Federal Penitentiary, and that's where well, that's where things would eventually come to an end. But the writings he produced during this period, they're just, they're absolutely crucial to understanding who he was and what made him tick.
Speaker 3:So what? What happened at Leavenworth? Like how did things end?
Speaker 4:Well, this is where the story takes its final dark turn. In 1929, while at Leavenworth, Pansrum killed a civilian employee named Robert Warren Kay who was working in the prison laundry and you know what's really chilling he just he did it with an iron bar, right in front of everyone.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, but like, why would he do that?
Speaker 4:That's the thing he later said. He did it just to ensure he'd get the death penalty. And well, he got exactly what he wanted they sentenced him to death by hanging.
Speaker 3:And how did he react to that?
Speaker 4:So get this. He welcomed it.
Speaker 3:That's absolutely terrifying. Did anyone try to stop the execution?
Speaker 4:You know what's fascinating? Some people actually did try to save him. There were anti-death penalty activists who wanted to appeal his case, but Panzram he, wanted nothing to do with it. He actually wrote them this letter saying the only thanks you and your kind will ever get from me for your efforts on my behalf is that I wish you all had one neck and that I had my hands on it.
Speaker 3:So he actually wanted to die.
Speaker 4:He absolutely did. And on September 5th 1930, they carried out the execution and right up until his final moment he stayed totally consistent with who he was. When they put the noose around his neck, the executioner said I hope you die easy. And Panzerum just spat in his face and said yes, hurry it up. You, who's your bastard? I could kill a dozen men while you're screwing around.
Speaker 3:And what about his like, his legacy? What impact did his case have?
Speaker 4:See, that's where things get really interesting. Panzrum's case has had this profound impact on criminal psychology and our understanding of violent offenders. His writings, which, Lesser preserved, they've become this invaluable resource for studying the criminal mind. They provide this unique insight into how childhood trauma, institutional abuse and societal factors can shape someone's path to violence.
Speaker 3:Has it changed anything about how we you know how we handle these cases now.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. His case has influenced everything from prison reform to rehabilitation programs. It's really highlighted the importance of early intervention in troubled youth and it's made us question the effectiveness of punitive measures versus rehabilitation. And you know what's really significant? His story has become this powerful argument both for and against capital punishment, depending on how you look at it.
Speaker 3:In what way?
Speaker 4:Well, on one hand, you've got this person who seemed completely beyond rehabilitation and actually wanted to die, but on the other hand, his case really shows how the system itself might have helped create the monster it ended up having to destroy. It's like this perfect example of what happens when society's approach to criminal justice is purely punitive.
Speaker 3:You know, I've been thinking like what actually goes on in the mind of someone like Panzrum. What makes someone become this way?
Speaker 4:That's such a complex question and Panzrum's case is particularly fascinating because he was incredibly self-aware. See, most violent offenders don't have this level of this kind of insight into their own psychology, but Panzrum he actually wrote extensively about what he believed, made him who he was.
Speaker 3:Really, what did he say about himself?
Speaker 4:So here's the thing he directly linked his violent tendencies to his experiences as a child. He wrote, and I'm quoting here I was so full of hate that there was no room in me for such feelings as love, pity, kindness or honor or decency. And he traced all of that back to his earliest experiences with institutional abuse.
Speaker 3:But lots of people have terrible childhoods and don't become you know.
Speaker 4:That's absolutely right and that's what makes this case so interesting from a psychological perspective. With Panzram, we're looking at this perfect storm of factors. First you've got the severe childhood trauma, then there's the systematic institutional abuse and on top of that he developed this incredibly dark philosophical worldview what kind of philosophical views are we talking about?
Speaker 4:so get this. Pansram developed this belief that human beings were fundamentally evil and corrupt. He didn't see himself as some kind of exception to humanity. He saw himself as the pure expression of what humanity really was. He believed society's morals were just like this thin veneer covering our true nature.
Speaker 3:That's… that's really intense, Like how did mental health professionals analyze his case?
Speaker 4:Modern psychologists have identified several key factors in Panzram's psychology. First, there's clear evidence of antisocial personality disorder, but it's combined with this remarkable intelligence and self-awareness. He displayed all the classic traits Lack of empathy, inability to feel remorse, extreme aggression—but he could articulate his motivations in ways that most criminals simply can't.
Speaker 3:Did anyone ever try to help him Like? Was there any attempt at treatment?
Speaker 4:And that's another fascinating aspect of his case. In those days, the concept of rehabilitation was pretty much non-existent. The system was purely punitive, which just reinforced Panzrum's worldview. Every time he encountered authority, it just it confirmed everything he believed about human nature. How so.
Speaker 4:Think about it. From his earliest experiences at reform school, what he learned was that power equals abuse. The people who were supposed to help him just hurt him instead. So he developed this philosophy that the only truth in life was power and violence. Everything else kindness, morality, reform he saw it all as lies. People tell themselves.
Speaker 3:That's so sad, Like it almost seems like the system created exactly what it was trying to prevent.
Speaker 4:That's exactly right, and what's really powerful about Panzram's case is how it illustrates this vicious cycle. The abuse he suffered made him violent. His violence led to punishment, and the punishment just reinforced his beliefs about humanity. It's become this textbook example of how institutional failure can actually perpetuate criminal behavior rather than prevent it.
Speaker 3:So what can we actually learn from Panzram's case, like, how does this relate to what we're doing today with criminal rehabilitation?
Speaker 4:You know, what's really striking about this case? It's that so many of the systemic issues Panzram faced they're still relevant today. Issues pans from face they're still relevant today. The way we handle juvenile offenders, the conditions in our prisons, the whole approach to rehabilitation these are all things we're still grappling with are things getting any better though?
Speaker 4:well, there's definitely been progress since pans rooms time. We're seeing more emphasis on mental health treatment, trauma-informed care and actually trying to understand what drives criminal behavior. But here's the thing we're still seeing many of the same patterns of institutional failure that Panzrum experienced.
Speaker 3:God, that's really concerning.
Speaker 4:It absolutely is, and I think that's why Panzrum's story remains so important. It's this incredibly stark reminder of what happens when the system fails completely, like. His case really shows us that if we want to prevent creating more Karl Pansrooms, we need to fundamentally rethink how we approach rehabilitation and criminal justice.
Speaker 3:Thanks for sharing this incredible story with us on Behind the Bloodstains. I know it's been pretty heavy, it's been intense, but these are the stories we need to understand.
Speaker 4:Pretty heavy, it's been intense, but these are the stories we need to understand. They show us where we've been and, more importantly, they point us toward where we need to go, and that's what makes them worth telling.
Speaker 3:And that's all we've got time for today. Everyone, thank you so much for listening. The world is full of shadows and some monsters never make the headlines.
Speaker 4:But here, in the dark corners of history, their stories will be told.
Speaker 3:Thanks for joining us on this journey into the headlines. But here, in the dark corners of history, their stories will be told. Thanks for joining us on this journey into the unknown. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share with fellow true crime fans.
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Speaker 3:Until next time, stay curious, stay cautious and remember behind every bloodstain there's a story waiting to be uncovered.