Vegans for Palestine Podcast - Episode 03 - Critiquing 'Veganuary'

Did you know that several organisations and individuals involved in Veganuary are also proponents of the Gaza genocide? In this podcast, Dalal and Dr Leila discuss why it is important to be critical about Veganuary. 

This podcast has an edited transcript for accessibility. 

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Sources:

Dr Leila - The Uncomfortable Truth about Veganuary https://www.instagram.com/p/DENHcFBowrT/

Dublin Veg Fest - https://www.instagram.com/dublinvegfest/

Plant Ed Academy - https://www.threads.net/@plantbased_health...

Hajar - Palestine Folk Music - https://www.tiktok.com/@clutchyourpearls/v...

Transcript

Dalal: hello and welcome Dr Leila!

Dr Leila:hi thank you for having me!

Dalal: we're happy to have you here today!

Dr Leila: Veganuary is just around the corner I have been seeing a lot of vegans who are committed to anti-oppression and total liberation for all beings, posting about Veganuary and using the hashtag #Veganuary
So I wanted to break down why we really need to think critically about the organisations and campaigns  that we support.
So why not Veganuary? firstly Veganuary is complicit in oppression, it partners with cooperations like McDonald's and Burger King. These are companies that have been profiting from occupied territories in Palestine, so by partnering with these corporations; Veganuary helps normalise their exploitative practices. That's what we call "vegan washing". Next, Veganuary endorses militarization, it even has ties to the British Armed Forces which as we know have been complicitd in the genocide of Palestinians. How can we fight for Liberation and at the same time align with groups that perpetuate war and destruction? Last but not least, Veganuary reinforces Eurocentric capitalism. It pushes this white Eurocentric idea of success which is rooted in capitalism, materialism and exploitation. This completely undermines the fight for Global Justice and Equity. Ee need to stop supporting campaigns that just keep the status quo, we need to ask ourselves: When did animals and their lives become a commodity to exploit?

Rayan: Hello, this is Rayan and welcome to episode 3 of the Vegans for Palestine podcast! What you just heard was a reel created by Dr Leila, who encourages vegans to think critically about Veganuary and exposes its relationships to capitalism, militarisation, and the ongoing colonial project that is the state of Israel. Dr Lea Deghan is a plant-based nutritionist, activist and personal trainer. Born in Tehran and raised in Vienna, she experienced life as an immigrant in Austria and the UK, which shaped her awareness of social injustices. After debilitating migraines led her to a whole food plant-based diet, she healed and shifted her career, earning a masters in clinical and Public Health Nutrition from University College London. Now, it may not surprise you to learn that the reel you heard earlier - actually went viral! And we here at the Vegans for Palestine Podcast want to know more! You might think that Veganuary is a challenge that encourages non-vegans to become vegan, and as Dr Leila highlights, there's a lot more to the story! In this episode Dalal and Dr Leila discuss how Veganuary works within oppressive structures of neocolonialism, capitalism, and alliances between Veganuary and proponents of the Gaza genocide. Dr Leila emphasizes the importance of vegans being literate when it comes to nutrition, and towards the end of their conversation Dalal and Dr Leila discussed the urgent need for alternatives and ultimately expose - that there is in fact nothing 'vegan' about Veganuary!

Dr Leila: Veganuary - most of us believe that it is a campaign, a challenge, but it is not really a campaign, it's not. It's actually an organisation. It's a UK nonprofit organisation and I think that is something that most of us most vegans don't really know. We assume it is just a challenge during January for people to go vegan for a month, and you know that a lot of people -  when you meet a lot of people they say that they tried vegan for veganuary and then after that, they carried on. So a lot of people actually start their vegan journey in January and you know, January is a perfect month because that is when people most people are very motivated to change their lives and start fresh, you know it is um this new year new you so it is the idea that, you know, after Christmas after 'you have been indulging in heavy meals' and you know bad habits people actually kind of feel ...uh!, January is a new start they can actually indulge in bad habits, bad eating patterns, so they feel like in January, they can reset, they can start new habits and so Veganuary is actually I mean when I say 'Veganuary', I mean the 'organization the organizers they tap into that mindset so they try encouraging people to try a vegan diet for January, and you know even people who are not vegan, non-vegans, even people who are heavy meat eaters, everybody knows that or believes that plant-based diets are healthier, so you know trying a healthier diet in January in form of 'plant-based diets' uh it seems like a good idea, right? It is an excellent marketing strategy and you know Veganuary has been around for 10 11 years and we have seen a lot of companies, cafes, restaurants, supermarkets, you know, a lot of these corporations they have taken up the idea they offer Veganuary menus. They offer you know a lot of products just in January for Veganuary so you see the label on a lot of products actually when you go shopping now, the problem is, as I said, it is an organization. About five years ago fast food chains like McDonald's, Burger King, they actually jumped on the 'Veganuary' bandwagon, okay they started offering vegan options but if you think about it we are talking about McDonalds, Burger King, these are corporations that you know offer a lot of meat products.  I read somewhere that McDonalds alone uses about 2 billion pounds of beef per year. You need to kill 8 to 10 million cows to get that amount of beef, so you know these corporations they actually kill and abuse animals and now they're exploiting the term Veganuary to sell even more Burgers, because by kind of offering these vegan options, you know and everything is of course green color (packaging) you know they come across as being environmentally friendly but it's really about money, capitalism and consumerism. And you need to understand that Veganuary is actually actively collaborating with these industries. Veganuary is promoting these  corporations on its website, so when you go to Veganuary's website, you see McDonald's, Burger King, Starbucks, all these companies that we actually currently boycotting because of their complicity in the genocide. So they are actually as unethical as they come, you know, they are part 
of the capitalist oppressive system which is responsible for so many of today's problems. like climate destruction, mass animal slaughter ,human rights abuses around the world, and of course the genocide. So Veganuary is not really about veganism, it's not really about any vegan, values of compassion, justice etc. It is is just about making profits, making more money, that's all, it is so there's nothing vegan about it. I have used the hashtag #Veganuary in the past I used to encourage people to join veganuary but then last year @DublinVegfest actually posted about veganuary and it was the first time that I heard that veganuary is not as vegan as we like to believe. I looked into that and this year, I thought that people are going to start using the hashtag #Veganuary again, so let me post about it and raise awareness because  each time we actually use the hashtag #Veganuary we are also promoting the nonprofit organisation veganuary and with that all the other corporations that veganuary promotes and also you know if you go to Veganuary's website and you look at the team members and the ambassadors, there are a few people who are zionists. For example, we have Zionist vegans who are ambassadors of Veganuary and this year, the official sponsor of Veganuary is The Vegetarian Butcher which is owned by Unilever, so  we are talking about again corporations and companies that support illegal settlements in Palestine, they test on animals, so again there's nothing vegan about these companies and Veganuary is actually collaborating with all these companies so it yeah as I said there's nothing uh vegan about veganuary and each time we use the hashtag, we are promoting veganuary and are actually promoting these capitalist oppressive systems.

DALAL: this is why we're talking about Veganuary today. I'm sure you probably read somewhere now that there is a new upcoming sister challenge in March that's called 'The V March', actually it's going to be starting in March in China, and is hosted and organized by the China vegan Society there and basically it's veganuary but happening in March because people are busy celebrating the new year according to the Lunar Calender, so March is spring so it would be another challenge happening in March. With all these challenges and the trends happening across social media we see how people maybe diverting from what being 'vegan' is all about because ultimately becoming vegan is the journey itself it's it's not the Final Destination it's not counting 30-31 days over a month and then when that is over you don't really know how to continue with that. 
What's really not vegan as well about it is how people simply fall into consumer  
practices, thinking because all it matters is 'how to veganize this dish' 'how to cook this' 'where to get these um items from' 'how do you plan your meals', post about this on social media use these hashtags so people are pretty much subscribed into this challenge where they need to show and prove their following the Veganuary challenge so they are viewed as the the people who  'are following this vegan diet over the month of January but then when that is over then that's when people probably forget how to commit and a lot of times people actually fall back into their normal life, the normal diet they used to follow before. So, I came across statistics published by Veganuary.com in their report after veganuary is over, & they're claiming that and I'm quoting based on the results that they surveyed from the current population estimates for each country: veganuary has calculated that roughly 25.8 million people worldwide chose to try vegan this January as part of veganuary. That's a lot of people?! 

Dr Leila:   yes it is but you know my problem with these numbers is yes and you are right every year we Veganuary publishes actually these numbers of uh how many people have joined the movement but then I I think there's no transparency where do they get these numbers from I mean are they counting people who signed up for the Veganuary challenge or is it people the number of people who visited the website because a lot of these people are going to be vegan, I actually signed up to veganuary when I was already vegan, so I think a lot of these numbers actually make it seem like veganism is on the rise but is it really and I'm also thinking like is it just capitalism ,which is finding new ways to profit of veganism by just making us believe that 'oh everything is okay people are going vegan', we became we become complacent we kind of stop trying and also you mentioned all these different challenges the V March but also we have the 'No meat May' there is always something happening like you know focusing on one month or even the meatless Monday you know so there are a lot of these challenges uh around and they have been around for many years but this idea that you can actually turn on and off your compassion.  I just think what kind of idea is that either you are against the animal abuse or you are not and what I really don't understand is that a lot of vegans they keep saying 'oh we are actually about animals you know veganism is not about diets' but they push the diet aspect don't they? I mean I get why they do that because food is one of the main obstacles which prevents people from going vegan but if you just focus on the diet alone you not going to change anything because you have actually reduced veganism to a consumer choice and capitalism loves that that's why you get all these vegan products and I mean you know we could actually talk about all these plant-based options which are not healthy and as far as I'm concerned as a nutritionist I'm actually concerned because all these unhealthy options are going to cause health problems so in a few years time we are going to see all these lifestyle diseases which are supposed to be kind of 'better' on a plant-based diet we are going to see vegans having all these lifestyle diseases because they are now buying all these processed plant-based options. So I think we are actually not really helping animals we are just maybe temporarily making ourselves feel better about what we are doing but I don't think long term, you are helping animals.

DALAL: this is some some sort of profit in Return of human compassion I mean few weeks earlier we we were seeing the hashtags about #VeganThanksgiving and then #veganChristmas so this is not just a vegan topic that we're discussing. I think it's it's deeper than that when we think that this is simply addressing the consumer and then selling these products to people because, yes people can't really survive without the food so you first introduce the meals to them and then when you look up all these recipes online, you will find everything vegan so people assume it's easy to do that but then they would be directed, to how to purchase things, when you go to supermarkets you find all these shelves packed with vegan products from this company, from that company this is vegan meat these this is vegan cheese and that's a lot to take in and often times people don't necessarily do their own research to understand where these products come from and how they're  made so where is the where is the nutritional health aspect in in this regard how do we really educate people on that how they can eat vegan, not just in January, but also all year long as as long as they're being vegans for the right purposes, how do we educate people on that aspect? and at the same time bearing in mind that people are are diverse, we come from different countries we have our own Traditions our own cultures our own Cuisine so just relying on specific ingredients and specific staples wouldn't necessarily make us the only vegan because we just eat certain things tell me more about that? what do you think of that?

DR LEILA: well I think to be honest if we want to change anything and it doesn't matter if you're talking about the food system, the health system, or animal exploitation, we need to challenge the systems that have caused those problems.  We cannot just say like kind of you know eat vegan eat this uh product and this is vegan and you're going to help animals we need to look deeper into the root cause of the problem and the root cause is capitalism. So the same applies when we just look at food food in general you know healthy food capitalism likes to make money it's really about money so and the only way to make money is by making us believe that certain foods are healthier or certain foods are better and sadly we have been led to believe that Western diets are healthier, and Western diets are meat heavy so that is where everything you know all the problems are starting so if we want to get people to go vegan we really need to educate them also on nutrition in general, and I think that is the problem a lot of these vegans who say that 'oh I'm just vegan for the animals', 'As long as no animal is harmed I don't care' --- that is not the right mindset, because what will happen is and  I'm not going to name anybody but I have seen activists and I'm talking about animal rights activists, passionate animal rights activists, who had health issues and you know the minute they get health issues on their vegan diet they actually ask themselves: 'should I go back to eating meat". So they haven't really changed their mindset have they? The mindset that actually we do not need animal based products and that's I think you know it goes deeper, we really need to challenge all the systems that have made us believe that we need certain nutrients, for example protein and that animals are the best source of those nutrients, so I think it is a bit complex but it is only complex because the system wants us to believe it is complex.  I believe actually nutrition is very simple, you just eat the foods that your ancestors have always is eaten, you know legumes, lentils, pulses, whole grains you know unprocessed natural Whole Foods, that's what you should be eating. 
DALAL: and our cultures are rich with that right? what the vegan movement and those activists fail to do is pretty much educate people about that you can simply dig deeper into your own culture into your own cuisine and find these staples in your own kitchen in your own, in your own markets that you can simply buy, and they're pretty affordable. You don't have to spend money on buying specific items because 'this recipe requires this and that'. I'm somebody who's living on budget.  
My approach to that on budget living is basically that it comes from me understanding that Palestinian food is really vegan-friendly, and when you look at the the way our ancestors lived, it was them cooking what they grew on their farms throughout the years. We saw how occupation and colonialism introduced to us to packaged food, so basically they introduced meat and introduced fish and different kinds of of meat in in packages in metal boxes, in metal cans, and they sell it to us, and then people started changing the way they eat, because they have different options that are brought to them by colonizers. On social media now, we see how if you're trying to commit to a certain vegan lifestyle ,you have to follow a specific manner because these people are doing these things so these are the examples you're leading by. Sadly, we see a lot of these activists and public figures that we probably know on a personal level, we see them pretty much copying pasting the things the white vegans are doing. So there is a lot of, there is a 'performative role' here. We are forgetting about the the essence of how veganism comes from culture, it comes from history it comes from our connectedness to our land, to our traditions, and we just put all that on the side and try to portray an image that doesn't necessarily resonate with us and that's why a lot of these vegans on social media they really fail to connect with people like us and I personally I can't see a lot of examples that I would say well this resonates with me or this person really is representing 'x culture', 'white culture' because their cultures are rich with vegan food and um the vegan philosophy is there in their life, so why is there this cultural eraser this lack of intersectionality in the vegan movement. Now, you were talking about how the colonizers actually came and uh tried to sell all these canned uh fish or other products before they could actually or even today before they can sell any products they need to sell you the idea that their product is necessary, and we see that today with alt-protein industry as well and you mentioned that a lot of  Palestinian food and the same applies to Iranian food which  don't need any meat. I see a lot of these Iranian vegans that want to 'veganize' Iranian food. Iranian meals. and they take away the meat and they add soy or some sort of you know meat-alternative, and I'm like kind of asking why?
the dish has already legumes that is a source of protein you don't need to actually replace it with something else, but that's why I talk about how they have they have sold us the idea that meat is necessary, so a lot of Iranians for examples what they do is when they remove the meat from a meal you know even if they are not vegan, and they're just vegetarian what they do is they add mushroom or they add more onions they feel like you know something is missing,  nutritious food is 'missing' so they have to make up for it. So again, that why I believe we need to start with decolonizing our minds, actually change our mindset, so when we are talking about all these influencers and sadly if they are Western white influencers obviously they are going to follow their own culture which is a capitalist colonial culture. But what I find really sad is that a lot of influencers from our countries and from the global south, are falling for the same traps. They are actually, as you said, they are ignoring intersectionality. So they're also trying to sell this idea that we need all these alt-processed- protein  supplements and products, and so they forget their roots. But again it is about their thinking, their mindset. We need to change. We need to challenge that so I think the problem is a little bit deeper than  just educating others  eg.what nutrients they need and what they should be doing. It's about understanding the systems that have led us to eat the way we are eating at the moment. It is a capitalist colonial oppressive system that has created the meat industry, this process food industry and if you we look at all these industries that I just mentioned, they exploit their workers. So there's exploitation at every level, so it's not just exploiting animals also exploiting humans, workers so all of those are actually involved but at the end of the day, we are just consumers, right? And that is what they want us to be - just consumers. That way they can sell us their products and even influencers  are trying to sell us a lifestyle where they can make money, so again it goes back to challenging these systems, thinking critically about them. If it was really about just eating a healthy nutritious diet, then you could just eat whole grains, legumes, seeds, nuts, fruits and vegetables, and that would be it. But it is about these industries wanting to make profit.

DALAL: Let's talk a little bit about the the nutrition side of  "the diet". Veganism is not just a diet, it's a lifestyle. I'll ask you the question that I get asked a lot: 'where do you get your protein from?' and I don't want to ask you about just the protein, my question would be about how do we maintain a balanced vegan diet. It's funny when people ask me this question about the protein they only think of vegans as people who are deficient in the their protein because the protein, only comes from animals and they don't even ask themselves where they get their fibers from. It's as though nobody cares about your your food, your your health, unless you introduce yourself as the vegan in the group, so from a Health Nutrition aspect, how do we balance our own eating? because there is a lot of some really tasty yummy vegan junk food out there.  The labels are there on the food the vegan trademark, 
specifically, the 'vegan friendly' I like to call it genocide friendly because it's pretty much complicit in what's happening in Palestine.  We'll talk about it later but from your perspective, how do you see a balanced diet that's also healthy, nutritious, fulfilling, and sustainable?

Dr Leila: I think if we could do without processed foods that would be great. As you say most junk food is actually even it is vegan, it doesn't offer any nutrients and it's okay to enjoy them. I like a vegan cheese cake from time to time but I guess the problem is that we don't realize how unhealthy we eat and you mentioned actually something like 'nobody really cares about their own diet until you say you are a vegan' then everybody wants to know what you eat and I think we don't actually pay attention to what we are eating. Most of us is not eating healthy. It's not really balanced as such and when we go vegan we have the the opportunity actually to eat a healthier diet because we are already removing animal based products from our plates, so that is our opportunity not to replace them with processed foods but unfortunately we do that because it is convenient,  it is available, it is tasty and it also goes back to the fact that most of us don't really know how to cook. We have forgotten how to cook, that's why we rely on these  processed and packaged foods out there. So if we would go back to just cooking and in a lot of cultures actually cooking is a social event,  people get together to cook together and enjoy  food together so it's community based, isn't it so that we have forgotten all of that. I feel like you have to unpack so many different layers there are, so many things that we have unlearned and we have to learn them again, we have to go back to our roots or back to what are grandmother's or grandparents used to do. So when it comes to a balanced diet, actually I 
don't even really like to call it balanced because what is balanced for me is probably not the same as what is balanced for somebody else so and it also depends on whether what the rest of your lifestyle looks like, but in general if we just eat whole plant foods that would be a balanced diet, but yes as you said all these vegan junk food is yummy and but when we realize that the root cause is all these companies they have done research, what they have done research how to put fat sugar, salt. How to combine these three unhealthy ingredients so that they get the right combination to kind of create pleasure or  trigger to stimulate our pleasure center in our brain, so again, it is just a capitalist system trying to find ways to make money. I know I keep repeating myself but it is really as simple as that now the question is how do we want actually to fight that how do we want to challenge it and get away from it I think that is the real question and what is happening right now is with the genocide sadly with this live streamed genocide, we have started questioning all of that. We have noticed that a lot of these companies  Starbucks, McDonald's, Burger Kings and you mentioned ;vegan friendly'. All of these companies and brands and  corporations -  they are complicit in the genocide, in the killing of people and that is what we now that we have started questioning all of that I think a lot of people are actually also questioning is the way that we are eating, is it actually sustainable? I'm not talking about just vegans now even non-vegans, they have a started questioning like kind of going back to their roots and I hear a lot of people talking about decolonizing their diets. I recently saw a post on Instagram about decolonizing 'curry', an Indian was talking about that so I I feel like you know now we are actually questioning a lot of things that we have been taking for granted and we shouldn't you mentioned again protein for example why do we all believe that protein is the most important macronutrient? it is not but the meat industry needed us to believe that protein is very important so that they could sell us animal  food so you see how it's all by design and that's why education is so important; educating ourselves and asking questions and learning and reading. For me as a nutritionalist, yes fibre is very important but one nutrient that I feel like people need to worry or  pay more attention to their omega-3 but people nobody actually thinks, nobody questions that because yeah it is just a because nobody's trying to sell fish for example or I don't know anyway what I'm trying to say is that it is these capitalist systems, industries and it is really by design they want us to have these ideas these distorted ideas about nutrition because that's the only way they can sell us their products.

DALAL: that's how they keep the money flowing and keep the consumer 'more consumed' into paying more ,looking for more alternatives, buying this and buying that, and it's it's never stopping and again, it's all about profit, it's all about keeping people basically consuming more. I really liked what you said about the part of the cooking because it's easier now that people are getting themselves more and more busy with work, with studies, with lots of commitments, That they don't necessarily dedicate enough time to cook their own food and thus be responsible for what they put on their own tables and the issue that I see with the 'Vegan Challenge' and the other challenges as well is that they just sell you a packaged meal you don't have to worry about where to get this from, where to get that from, they give you all the list of the markets you can buy products from, they give you 'try this recipe try that recipe' they connect you through social media with creators they they sell you these ebooks to to teach you  things but they failed to teach you that cooking is really how you connect with the food and it's a celebratory social event because back in the old days, the family would sit to eat together but then they would have already made that meal and cooked together and had some really interesting conversations around the food they could have fought, they could have smiled, or laughed or gossiped about each other but they had fun creating that food that they put together on their table to sit together to eat and this is what is missing in this dialogue that we have today when we find these simple easy vegan recipes online but nobody talks about culture here nobody talks about our Traditions our Cuisine how it really came into life it came with  our grandparents, with our ancestors, working together in the field working together to put food on the table and having these amazing stories that we are carrying throughout the generations so food is our connection it's the way we relate to each other we share our history, but this is not there with the vegan friendly, genocide friendly labels because it's simply a product so there is a huge gap here and that is what's missing but people are not necessarily realizing that and this is why we're talking about this today and this is not just about Veganuary, this is again it's when people celebrate the vegan Thanksgiving I mean are people not thinking how Thanksgiving came into being an annual tradition that we will celebrate or even the world vegan day, the festival, the events that are carried and hosted and organized across the world do we necessarily need an alternative to vegan or how do we improve on vegan Thanksgiving, on the vegan this, vegan that? 

DR LEILA: you touched on a lot of really good points I'm going to address one after the other one firstly you said that nowadays you are busy, we are busy with work, studying and this and that and we don't have time for cooking for example where and you have to think cooking is such a basic activity, we need to eat so we need to be able to cook so that is where again look at the whole system. This system wants you to be busy because when you are busy and you cannot cook, then you need their products. So again, that's why I feel like you know we need a systemic change and what a lot of these 'Veganuary' challenges or even all these organizations that are focused on just one aspect like the environmental aspect or animal rights aspect. What they are doing is they're just copying, you know, Audrey Lord, how she says that: 'you cannot use the Master's tool to dismantle the Master's house'. I believe a lot of these documentaries yes you are right they actually just probably work in the west because you know they are actually speaking to the Western audience but also these other challenges these other organizations they are just copying the same systems that they are trying to dismantle but that is not going to really help us that's not going to help the animals, that's not going to change anything so but going back to your question 'how can we improve Veganuary?' We cannot because Veganuary is an organization and I always compare it to a meal that you are cooking. Let's say, 
you're cooking a dish and everything is going okay but then suddenly you add a bit too much salt. You want to fix it, so you add water but then you see the flavor is off! Now you add a little bit more of this a little bit of that you're trying everything to balance it out but then before you know it you realize actually the food is burnt! There is no saving it. The best thing you can do is to throw it away and start from scratch so I think Veganuary yes, maybe when they started they had the best intentions to help people go plantbased, and eat more vegan and go vegan but at the moment the way they have turned out is just an extension of the same capitalist consumerism that they want actually to dismantle or they claim they want to dismantle. So we cannot improve Veganary. We need to create our own campaigns. When we talk about the global south and there are so many cultures in the global south. We have our own traditions, which are free  from genocide. 
It's not Thanksgiving, we have our own New Years so we need actually to build events or campaigns around our own traditions,  involving our own plantbased traditions and meals and histories. We need to actually have our own stories because that speaks to us especially when we think about it mthat the global thought when we say the global thought that is 80% of the world population so if we want people to go vegan if we want a vegan world we cannot only focus on the 20% of the population in the West, so I think we have forgotten all of that and sadly maybe the West has better marketing strategies or maybe they have the funds, but the vegan community at the moment, the mainstream veganism is Eurocentric, all the materials that are coming out are focused on their needs and requirements, and we try to translate that into to our own languages, but that doesn't really speak to our people. It only probably speaks to the elite in our countries, and the elite already speaks English, they can they can read it in the original English version. They don't need the translation, so we really need to actually start to critically examine all these campaigns and kind of really look at what could help our people given that our history is full of oppression, full of inter internalized oppression. We need to really question all of that and consider our people & our religion. Religion does play a huge role in our countries and there are so many other traditions and we need to address all of them. We need to include all of that in our messaging and I think that is one of the biggest problems that we are facing and that's why   we are not really making any progress and that number you mentioned that veganuary published I don't believe that so many people really tried vegan diets. Maybe based on what products were sold but again what does that mean yes products were sold that doesn't really tell me how many animals were saved, so we really need to do a big rethinking of how we have done things. We cannot simply copy and paste it doesn't work like that and I think it is challenging because all of us even if we are not brought up in the West, all of us have been educated in the same colonial system and all the movies we watch everything has that Eurocentric mindset, so it is challenging for us to get away from all of that and create a new vegan community. To be honest I think that is what we need, a new vegan community which understands intersectionality, which is rooted in anti-racism, anti-oppression and and also these single issue kind of movements we cannot separate any animal rights from environmental rights and human rights. We need to address all of them at the same time if we don't, we just see what we have been seeing. How can a person be a vegan and pro genocide? it just doesn't work I mean I really do not get that I mean that I mean we have seen how many animals they killed all these uh...I just think  don't you care for those animals because I mean do animals have nationalities? is that what they believe? I really don't get it and I'm sure I'm not the only one. A lot of other vegans don't understand that!. DALAL: This is what occupation does to the world, when they show you these 'cool iof soldiers rescuing animals' from Gaza that they are themselves bombarding and killing and ethnically cleansing and they show you that they're the the ones who are the most 'humane;
the most 'vegan friendly' or 'animal friendly'. That's  the story that they put out there. That's their own narrative and what we're doing now is we're trying to challenge all of that and that's why we sit together to talk today. I got to know you through the 'vegans for Palestine' community. It's an initiative that's uniting vegans for a free Palestine and talking about veganism, and being vegans has been way for us to challenge the status quo and enable us to write our own narrative, to write our own stories, and these are the stories that are lacking in
the media, are lacking on social media, are lacking amongst Vegans themselves because people have been simply subscribing to the things they that they perceive from the digital platforms without criticizing without thinking without challenging or questioning people don't necessarily think that oh this is a soldier and the rescueing oh let's uh go fund them' but people don't think that these soldiers the reason for these animals to suffer and these animals were living peacefully with their Palestinian friends and without without any issues but then occupation doesn't really differentiate between the Palestinian or the animal or the environment in in occupied Palestine and the same goes to colonization and occupation in other countries it doesn't really differentiate it sees every every sentient being as a Target that they need to annihliate to prove something. 
Dr LEILA: Veganuary is complicit because veganuary actually promotes the idea that Israel is a 'vegan friendly society' and that's what I mean with a lot of these vegan organizations they actually by you know associating and collaborating with other organizations like Starbucks, McDonald's, Burger King they are also complicit in the in Israel's vegan washing so I think  we need really to question all of that I think sometimes we vegans are so desperate for everybody else to go vegan that we just uh we are easy prey  we just fall for anybody who promises us to kind of help more people to go vegan we don't really question what their motive is what why they are doing that and again I don't want to say that Veganuary started by wanting to kind of make money or profit but I think we also forget that power and status corrupts and I think that is what is happening with a lot of vegan organizations. They start with good intentions but down the line you know once they have made them, when once they have made a name for themselves and they have established themselves and they do become corrupt and yeah so anyway yeah going back to veganuary I think it is complicit in the genocide because it is helping and
promoting Israel's vegan washing. 

DALAL:By the time this episode is out, veganuary would already be over and but that doesn't mean that it's just about Veganuary but then moving forward what would you recommend as a a vegan starter kit for people  if they're interested in going vegan and if they have already started this vegan challenge in January and they want to keep it along the coming months hopefully years because I would love to see more people go vegan but then just be educated enough for yourself to be able to get on this Journey but how what do you think are some tips for uh vegans um that they can start off with?

DR LEILA: I believe veganism is about compassion and justice but I really focus on compassion and what I mean with that is that we need to be kind we need to be compassionate not just towards other  animals and humans but also towards ourselves and I think that that is where I would thought that people are kind to  themselves and if they start their Journey from a point of kindness and compassion then they are more likely to actually follow it and stick with it and make the right decisions because when we talk about processed foods and if we kind of examine why we like these processed foods these are Comfort foods, which we eat because life is difficult so if they they treat themselves with compassion and kindness you know they would make better choices and I I really think you know sometimes people who have a really unhealthy diet it is just their way of coping with their lives so again I always feel like you know yeah my two mantras I say is be kind, be patient and with that you can achieve anything you want to achieve so I believe you if somebody hopefully if they have already started eating more plant-based they should keep it simple, they should enjoy it but it doesn't need to be fancy and we already talked a little bit about cooking. I think cooking does play a huge role starting to enjoy actually food enjoy cooking and engaging all their senses again these are things that we have forgotten you know you don't just eat because something tastes good also you want it to look good you want it you want really to engage all your senses taste texture color and I just think we need to go back to all of that we need to rethink the way we have been yes rethink our relationship with food so yeah it depends on anyway it depends on where they are on their Journey if they have just started or if they you know they are already vegan and they want to eat healthier but I would really say keep it simple you don't need all these fancy foods these expensive organic foods you don't need any of that you know food is simple and it is usually healthy food is simple as well and very affordable so all these expensive options it is part of the capitalist consumerism like kind of you know they just want to sell products and yes and yeah I don't want to go into the supplements but there aren't a lot of supplements that we need anyway, the main one is just B12.

DALAL:  and if someone is concerned about their protein intake, compassion is your protein that's the way for for us to become morally and justice oriented humans who know what they're doing for the right purposes for the right reasons and people who are educated connected with their cultures with their history with their traditions and know how to share that and tell their stories um with the world with people around them uh and knowledge is power it's it's what keeps us alive it's what keeps uh our history and our cultures our own Traditions alive and I don't know I I wanted to add something I wanted to add something!

DR LEILA: It's good! knowledge  is power!

DALAL: I like that actually a lot knowledge is power yes exactly and I mean there there are definitely more things to talk about and  I'm more than happy to to talk about them at another time with you Dr Leila but uh I really enjoyed having this conversation and just keep keep doing what you're doing!

Dr Leila: thank you and I'm really grateful for your podcast I think we need more podcast like this you know something which is really really centering our stories rather than those coming from the West so really grateful for you and what you are doing!

Dalal: Thank you thank you Dr Leila! 

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