Vegans for Palestine Podcast - Episode 04 - Rejecting isr@el's genocidal 'vegan revolution'

How does a settler colonial military that is involved in the genocide of both human and non-human animals across Palestine define itself as the 'world's most moral, vegan friendly army'? Dalal and Waseem discuss the so-called 'vegan revolution' in the Israeli colonial population, and how it is fraught with racist contraditions about animal liberation within a society dedicated to the annihilation of the people of Palestine.

This podcast is captioned for accessibility for Deaf and Hard of Hearing viewers here. Autocaptions have been adjusted to ensure accessibility.

We dedicate this episode to Hind Rajab, a young Palestinian girl who was murdered by the Israeli military. We will never forget nor forgive what happened to Hind.
الله يرحمها

Read more about Hind Rajab here.

You can follow Waseem here

The music in this episode is credited to two Palestinian artists:

Mahmoud Shalabi plays the ney (Arab flute). View here. Mahmoud Shalabi is a Palestinian actor and artist based in Akka, Palestine. He took part in a documentary call Slingshot Hip Hop by Jackie Salloum (Bouza Productions) that can be viewed here.

Said Fadel is a Gaza-based Palestinian artist who is surviving the recent Israeli genocidal war upon Gaza, Palestine. Said plays the lute here and is part of a band called Sol Band here.

Please follow, support and share both Palestinian artists. The Vegans for Palestine Podcast team are amazed and proud of their work.

Transcript

[MUSIC - Arab flute/sad tone]

RAYAN: Welcome, I'm Rayan. And this is episode four of the Vegans for Palestine Podcast. We dedicate this episode to a young Palestinian child named Hind Rajab. Hind was brutally murdered on the 29th of January 2024 by a military that frequently describes itself as “the world's most moral vegan friendly army”. That's right, I am referring to the IOF- otherwise known as the Israeli offense forces. In this episode, Dalal and Wasim apply critical vegan Palestinian lens upon this supposedly ‘vegan friendly army’. Further. listeners are advised that the following episode contains crude and distressing descriptions of how the Israeli military, settlers and society collectively torment and abuse both human and non-human animals across occupied Palestine. 

NEWS REPORTER: One thing you may not know about him he's vegan! This fact should not necessarily be so surprising as in fact the Israeli military is the most vegan army in the world with one in every 18 soldiers more than 5% declaring themselves as vegan! 

WASEEM: Right now, if you were to look up who has the ‘most vegan army’, Israel would come up as number one. But, first of all, ‘vegan army’ is an oxymoron. 

DALAL: Yeah that’s what I would say! 

WASEEM: A vegan army is an oxymoron and it doesn't make makes sense that you have soldiers fighting and killing people and calling themselves vegan compassionate, and ethical and moral and all of that. First of all that specific Israeli “army” (army in quotes). Many of those soldiers that have refused that service used to be vegan like they used to identify as vegan, but now we turned from that into the most vegan army and I don't know how you go from refusing to commit war crimes to be the most vegan army? 

DALAL: Yeah? How did we actually get to the point where we see and hear about the most vegan army in the world…who are basically committing genocide against the human people in Palestine? and the animals in Palestine? and that's all sentient beings in Palestine? But they are still “vegan”, wearing vegan “cruelty-free boots” and eating all these vegan-friendly meals? They claim themselves to be vegans. How… what the Bateekh (Watermelon) is that? 

WASEEM: What the bateekh? Indeed!

DALAL: How is even possible? What does that even mean? When we hear all of these words across social media platforms and the news? 

WASEEM: So it's important to remember that, first of all - being part of the animal rights movement and calling yourself ‘vegan’ means that you stand for values that are against oppression and against exploitation of any living being,  any sentient living being. So to be actively now fighting in a military occupational army and go around and kill people while still clinging on to veganism - something must have changed in you! Something must have changed your perception about veganism. And that was not you by default that changed that it was pretty much propaganda that pushed you towards that. It was propaganda and should I say; state sponsored propaganda. The israeli colony specifically saw an opportunity in that. And that really goes back to something that they call many vegan Israelis call the ‘vegan revolution’ which happened about 15 years ago in 2010-11. That was the start of it, because before that, we had some number of Israeli settlers refusing to commit war crimes and refusing to join the occupation forces -  most of whom seem to be vegan. According to some data that came out in an article that I read, an article interestingly is called There are no chickens in suicide vests” which is a very interesting topic to read about, to understand the perception of vegan israelis and now after 2010-11, all of a sudden, we start going towards having the ‘most vegan army and again, like I said, that's part of a state sponsored propaganda because it allowed their colony and their government to use veganism, use animal rights as part of their Israeli national identity so that everybody can unite, whether you're a rightwing, you're a leftwing, you're compassionate, you're anti-occupation-all of that. 
“No, let's just all unite for the animals and only for the animals nobody else matters’ and as long as you're helping with that, then you're doing good. There's many references throughout the years with that including some major and large vegan figures in the Israeli animal rights movement  one of them is called Ori Shavit, she's quoted in an article saying things like well ‘we feel like we can't help with the political situation so we just tend to see the advocating for animals as something good that we do’. I'm paraphrasing here, but that's just what that quote really says, so yeah it's all state sponsored, it's all pushed down, it's all propaganda. The government wanted to use and it's not just  we have to go back to why did they want to use vegan washing as a tool, because it's not unique to use a type of washing, because it's also included in like greenwashing with the environment saying that they have the most sustainable economy, sustainable technology that helps with environment. they have art-washing, they have pinkwashing - all of that using specific, ‘progressive’ movements in the West. So that the West can relate to israel as part of them, as well so that those people can stop criticizing israel. We have to go back and this is interesting, because we're going to be jumping back and forth between a big timeline and I think that's okay for the listeners because it's really a roller coaster for people to understand, that this whole thing comes down to.  I want to take you all back to like 2005, 2004, even early 2000s and we know that during that period, there was the Palestinian intifada, the second intifada, where there was an uprising against the occupation and there was a lot of violence and there was a lot of aggression from the Israeli side, and believe it or not- it got to a point where the israeli occupation was receiving criticism globally, even-I'm not even kidding here but even the president of the United States at the time, Bush had condemned Israel for taking out a Hamas leader in his house killing his family and his children, and saying that that's not okay so and then taking into contrast now what we're seeing in Gaza that's just a normal now, right? like that's what people are okay with now ? So a lot has changed between now and then and the reason for that is as I said going back to 2004-2005, there was a government backed campaign that basically the israeli government wanted to find ways to stop people from criticizing israel and this isn't this didn't just happen out of the blue there's multiple events that came into play for that not just the fact that they were going through the in but also during 2003 2004 the international court of justice actually came out with a report that said that we do find that the apartheid wall that the that the Israeli occupation is upholding in the occupied West Bank is illegal and their apartheid regime is not  it's not okay and it's against international law so with that came a lot of criticism but also at that time if some of you may remember that the BDS movement the boycott divestment sanctions movement came into play just about a year after that ruling came out and that started to get traction around the world and it started to affect the economy of Israel at the time because nobody wanted to be involved with a settler-colony that's against international law, we have an obligation to do that whether or not ,we benefit from it, we have an obligation to do that so the companies worldwide governments worldwide knew that they would be coming under pressure and Israel knew that they needed to counteract that so they came out with brand Israel and that government back campaign included various types of washing like I said from art washing, pink washing, green washing, and now vegan washing and because you can wash everything basically everything like  you could just  you have blood on your hands just wash it away with things that people can relate to and think that you're doing good for the world.

DALAL: This is all strategic it's a way for israel to promote itself as a state that is liberal, that is progressive and distract the attention basically from the ongoing violations of human rights, of animal rights, of Palestinian rights, basically, and it's way easy in Israel to fight for anything except for Palestinians. It's all part of the propaganda it's all part of what this constitutes is what this state is basically built on. 

WASEEM: For sure, you're saying that like they're trying to like to present  themselves as liberal and progressive. There's actually a quote going back to the idea of them using veganism, there's a quote by the founder of an organization called VibeIsrael which brings  has tours to bring people from around the world, specifically the US, Canada and the UK not necessarily for  settlements or things like that so these are non-Jewish people they're just  people that might be criticizing Israel and they bring them on tours to show them the ‘progressive side’, ‘the liberal side’. So with veganism,  there's a quote by this founder that I'm going to read it here I have it in front of me she says “The online Vegan community is huge and mostly draws people with liberal viewpoints, with a stronghold among women and millennials. These three audiences tend to view Israel more critically than others, and we felt it would be a good topic through which to raise awareness for Israel. It fits into our overall philosophy that Israel’s story should be told through its strengths and competitive advantages that are particularly appealing and attractive to millennials. We believe that engaging this generation with Israel through what they care about is the best way to enhance Israel’s global reputation.” That's, again, about the online vegan community and this person that I just mentioned, her name is Joanna Landau-I don't care if I'm pronouncing her name right or not but anyway-she is actually on the board of BrandIsrael and she also has ties to a publication whose president used to be the president of AIPAC: the lobby group in the US, so again, there's so many ties between so many people that strategically as you said, Dalal, that strategically wanted to push for this and push for people to start viewing Israel as more: quote unquote “liberal” and “progressive”, and they saw veganism as part of that and unfortunately it worked. You see a lot of major news outlets, major vegan organizations touting Israel as the ‘vegan capital of the world’, as the place where ‘veganism is great’ and people to go on tours in and people to have vegan tourism in, so it's all strategic and it's all for a purpose. I want to bring attention to people that it's not just these vegan washing is not just to deter people from the animal rights movement, and from the vegan community, from criticizing the SettlerColony, but it's also a way to push for their development in the industry in the food tech, in lab grown meat and all of that. so that they can uphold that economy that that is oppressive and that oppresses Palestinians much of which we see many examples that these same companies that even the SettlerColony, their government themselves keep pushing and advertising as the first Innovative lab grown meat, many of them have been donating to the army and many of them even exist on stolen land. So all of that is not just to deter people from criticizing the Settler Colony but it's also to benefit from the animal rights movement in order to uphold oppression -which goes against our values as vegans, right? It's interesting! 

DALAL: When I was looking at the topic of vegan washing, it really took me across many articles online, that's a topic for a different time to talk about but this is very interesting that we have something called White veganism, I know that there's really isn’t enough literature yet on what is white veganism but in short it's everything that is written by white people who claim that they have like they are setting up what is veganism and how people in different countries, across different cultures, would be adopting this philosophy in their lives and but again when we're talking about vegan washing, it's very important that people just it's not just a matter of the food you eat or the things you drink or the kind of clothes you wear you wear there is a lot of intersectionality with politics with human rights with animal rights and with the very ethics and morality of what it takes to be vegan and we're seeing online a lot of vegan people actually are not they're still subscribing to vegan products and to vegan corporations and promoting them and at the same time they claim to be standing up for human rights let alone rights and it doesn't make sense when are not people actually realizing that there is a lot of connections there are many connections basically between the two things between standing up for abuse and manipulation of animals and at the same time the abuse and manipulation and oppression of humans why are we failing to see that as vegans why there aren't many educated vegans out there who can simply unsubscribe from the vegan washing that is happening and at the same time, we are actually pushing forward for the political agenda of occupation and how the israeli government and other governments are all complicit in this genocide but there is a lot of unpack here but maybe why are we failing to see that as vegans? 

WASEEM: That's an excellent question and I would answer it by saying that you mentioned with white veganism or the colonizers version of veganism. let's say. like I said earlier. it's changing the perception of the movement it's changing what it means to be a vegan and right now it seems to be that what it means to be a vegan is your convenience at reducing animal harm not the actual reduction of animal harm so that means that you have  as long as you have products and ways of living the same way that you lived before but without causing harm to animals then you're doing good and that is very problematic because  it's problematic for many ways but one of them is of course as we mentioned it's directly tied to the oppression and to the exploitation of people and again this is not just about Palestine I mean Palestine is the focus in what we're discussing but like I said there are many companies whether they're vegan or not that they exploit people that there's child exploitation yet they produce vegan products and those products are commonly used and like I said that's one thing that you're causing harm but the other side that I don't think people often think about is it's actually very harmful to the animal rights movement itself because it's giving a very wrong false idea about what veganism is to the rest of the world so non-vegans look at vegans and say this is this is your movement your movement is to exploit other living beings in order to protect the animals and don't get me wrong we do need to protect the animals and we are not their saviours but we're trying to explain to people that your use of animals as  some type of product is not right but at the same time using other living beings is not right to do that and that's really the essence of veganism isn't it like to stop seeing humans and animals as one being more superior than the other or one being above the other so why are you choosing that and that is actually causing a lot of harm to the vegan movement as  we share a lot of things on vegans for Palestine I share a lot of things on my personal page about that and nearly every time  there's a post on vegan washing and specifically calling out israeli companies or even companies that are associated with Israel every time there's a vegan that comes in and they're like well if you do this then you're going to be killing animals if you do this then you're harming the animals and it's like are you ignoring the other part why can't we do both why can't we protect both why can't we refuse that and again to remind you all because to him or them those people that are coming in there's actually one specific person that comes to mind that has not seized to stop coming to my comments and leave these such comments but in general these people that come into comments and with arrogant responses like that it's not just dehumanizing to Palestinians but again it proves the point of convenience you're doing it because you think that Israel's existence as a vegan capital and their development and all of that is good because it's helping you not cause harm to animals but it's not actually not causing harm to animals because we were seeing  the ways Israel and their army is carrying out genocide not just against the people but they're also harming animals whether it's in Gaza or in the West Bank settlers just go around and like sorry for this but like they chop off donkey heads and put them on places just to threaten people and like  they do that to bigs as well exactly and their claim is that if we don't do it they're going to do it so like we're just sending a message or  also there's threats there's also  it's just sadistic in a way that I can't describe because this topic can go on and on and on about how israel keeps claiming that they are morally Superior for having the most vegan Nation  they claim to have 5%, 7% whatever the percentage is and they claim that the majority of the nation is susceptible of veganism and of caring about the animals yet they go around and call Palestinians animals to justify their oppression and their genocide so how does that work?

DALAL: Vegan friendly? 

WASEEM: Yeah?! And that organization vegan friendly that that is now  spreading all around the world specifically in the west the UK us I'm seeing them here in so-called Canada they're there to again put the footprint and say israel is doing the ‘best work’ in veganism and we have the proof to show it but it's not vegan friendly as as I'm going to quote you here as we discussed earlier it's genocide friendly genocide yeah it's it's just to make genocide more friendly and and and genocide you  the genocide of Palestinians didn't just start from October 7th it's escalating since then but it's always been there and and it's just wild to me that people buy into that and I know that many people don't may have not known about this many vegans may have actually bought into the propaganda because I have to admit Israel does a really good job at portraying themselves as vegan friendly or at least they used to but then as soon as they started advertising themselves as having the most vegan army with 10,000 soldiers that are vegan and all of that it doesn't make sense to me how are vegans in the west looking at that and saying yes more vegan armies or more armies should be doing that like we have major animal rights organizations specifically saying more countries need to learn from Israel's military in regards to veganism, do they ? do they really ? because it's not really good for veganism. 

DALAL: I just wanted to say that nobody is learning the lesson that armies quote unquote whose mission is to kill and ethnically cleanse and that that is the least human we can ever see in in life!

WASEEM: Absolutely and it's wild to me because on that point, we keep going back and forth between timelines but as I said that the so-called Vegan Revolution started in the early 2010 and as soon it started getting major traction worldwide that's actually due to the media and the media,  the global media. Around 2015 just after the Israeli army and for the listeners just please know that  you're not seeing us and whether or not I'm actually doing the quotes assume that I'm always using the quotes because they're not army they're not Israel they're all just a Settler Colony, but the point is after 2014 when israel's army began advertising itself as friendly for those that are vegan soldiers and accommodate and providing them the vegan leather boots providing them with extra stipends to go and buy vegan meals and all of that. So after 2014 when Israel started advertising themselves as vegan friendly and they care about the soldiers that are vegans and their values and all of that and giving them fall leather boots and giving them stipends to go and buy vegan meals and if you want to refuse vaccines that are tested in animals you have the right to do that and all of that, just trying to show that they  understand and they care for the values of those so-called vegan soldiers. Right after that the media started advertising it too and there's an interview by the BBC that interviewed a soldier in 2015 and basically I found it very interesting because basically the interviewer was asking Soldier don't you find it hypocritical to  be vegan and carry  a weapon and like be harming people and so on and her response was like no I am actually trying to do both I care for the animals so I'm protecting the animals and the people we're just defending ourselves and we hear that all the time it's am IDF ‘israeli Defence Forces’ but it's not, it's an occupation forces but they keep implementing these things and what I found even more interesting than that interaction that happened is that the interviewer then in the post- production of this interview was like she politely disagreed the way he used politely was the most crazy thing I've ever heard because, you clearly see the hypocrisy of that .and then you add ‘politely’ by saying that like oh like  she she's a young 18yearold and they say it's an 18yearold or 19yearold and like  she seems polite and like she's caring for the animals and she's vegan and all of that and she has a weapon on her shoulder just hanging…

DALAL: but ‘she's an 18y old’ and the world is twisted things when they think of Palestinians, ‘oh these are these are men and these are women’ they don't say ‘these are teenagers’ or ‘these are kids in imprisonment’ or ‘in irahelli jail and going through the horrors of torture there’. 

WASEEM: Absolutely! It's crazy the way that the dehumanization of Palestinians happens, it goes hand in hand with the way that they try to show the other side, the Israeli side as more ‘Humane’. It's not even just like 18-year-old and 17year old Palestinians that are being called, ‘men’ I remember when Hind Rajab, when she was murdered by 300 plus bullets the media called her a 5-year-old ‘woman’?!

DALAL: Exactly!

WASEEM: a 5year old ‘woman!’?! But you have an 18-year-old kid soldier with a gun on her shoulder, politely disagreeing with the fact that she's ‘defending’ animals and people? 

CNN NEWSREPORTER: We also are just learning at this hour that banners have been hung from the hall, they read, they read Hind’s Hall and Intifada. Hind is a reference to a woman who was killed in Gaza. 

RASHIDA TLIAB: the audio on January 29th of six-year-old Palestinian girl hind called as she was calling the paramedics begging, begging them to come rescue her after the rest of her family in the car had already been killed by the Israeli military She kept begging come get me please come get me I'm so scared please come, no one was able to reach the car for 12 days!

TIKTOKER#1: She sat in a car, filled with deceased family members. 5 years old! Sat in a car with deceased family members and she called for help she had the wherewithal the courage, the temerity to call for aid. 

PROTESTOR: Hind Rajab was 6 years old when Israel kill her! 6 years old! Blinken, you will be remembered as the Butcher of will be remembered for murdering innocent Palestinians. 

TIKTOKER#1: and not only is she dead, but the two people that went to answer her call for aid are no longer with us as well. 

TIKTOKER#2: A UK based research Group found that whoever killed Hind and her cousin Layan and her entire family, likely was able to see inside the vehicle when they shot. There were 355 bullets that they saw, from the photos that were taken and from the forensic investigation they found that it had to have come from a weapon that could shoot between 750 and 900 rounds per minute. 

RASHIDA TLIAB: Madam Speaker, I'm here to talk about it because a new forensic analysis found that the Israeli military fired not one, not two not dozen not 20; 355 tank bullets at the car that Hind was in, and the tank was so close that the Israeli soldiers would have been had a clear vision, clear view of Hind in the car 6 months later the state department and President Biden has yet has yet to hold the Israeli government accountable for these executions. 

CNN NEWSREPORTER: Hind is a reference to a woman who was killed in Gaza.

TIKTOKER#2: She was a child! Not a woman! shame CNN! she was a six-year-old child! Check your wording! Please, everyone if you're choosing to watch news networks like this please, critical think! listen to the way that they are phrasing things, the way that they are giving you information! This was not a woman, this was a six-year-old child and they do this all the time with every story not only the stories about Palestine but every story that they are feeding you is curated, please eyes open, ears open, listen, she was a child, a six-year-old child. Shame! Shame CNN! 

DALAL: The double standards of media have really created this image that Palestinians are the ones everybody should be protecting themselves from or Israel has the right to defend itself because oh these people started it when people Palestinians were ethnically cleansed since 1948 till today, and but there is no mention of this narrative out there in the media because they wouldn't want to learn about that side of story. 

WASEEM: Absolutely and why do they not want to know about that because again Israel plays a very good job at trying to show that they are more ‘progressive’ and ‘liberal’ to those that are in the west to deter them from criticizing them and again like I said it's not just that but it's also to push those that are in the west to not just see them as liberal and Progressive but also to invest in what they're doing as part of something good for Humanity and for the world in general where our topic here is about veganism but you can see that in in other ways when it comes to like sustainability within the food Tech and all of that and tying it back to veganism I want to go back to the vibe Israel tour that that that they did  this happened around 2018 again Vibe Israel started way before then but the vegan tours specifically happened in 2018 and just a couple of years after that so the Israeli government and the Israeli companies saw major increase in investments in foodtech and specifically the alt protein if I'm not mistaken there's  the Investments went like there's an article that I read that said it went Eightfold it went from what is it 14 million to 114 million in a couple of years and again that's not just random it's not just because of VibeIsrael but it's also because the head of the government the lovely Bibi Mileikowsky AKA Netanyahu also took a chance to advertise these on television and so on  trying a company called Aleph Farms which is a food Tech alt protein company and he advertised it as it felt guilt-free free and it tastes just like meat so like yeah we need to push for more of this but guess who he had next to him as he was doing this one of the top vegan animal rights activists she's known as The Angry Vegan and her name as angry vegan is because she keeps she changed the way that people in Israel view veganism by being  so compassionate about it and again we should be compassionate and very  actively pushing for that but she's also an a former iOS Soldier and she in 2019 was appointed to become the animal rights adviser for Netanyahu and she accepted it and she even touts Netanyahu as the only one that does good for the animals and she  got even under criticism by certain Israeli settlers for like joining the right-wing lud party and her response was like well to care about the animals you don't have to be rightwing or leftwing and this goes back to what we're saying like you don't  it doesn't matter as long as you're there for the animals it's okay but you kill people! 

DALAL: There is a lot of just contradiction here we talked about the vegan superiority and then the vegan capitalism and you have the Vegan Revolution and also we have we still need to talk about the vegan nationalism there but this all this big square of contradiction of opposition it doesn't make a lot of sense really it's well definitely there is some sense I try to understand where things come from but it's really it doesn't really add up when we talk about people wanting to protect the animals then be the person who is working to protect the animals but people fail to to see the bigger picture that all sentient beings are connected we can't just we can choose oh this is a Palestinian dog oh let's rescue this dog and take it from these horrible people and give it put it into a sanctuary and then like post about it on social media because we're the cool ones and I've seen this the israeli like social media they're promoting Palestinian animals being rescued from Gaza as ‘oh the poor creatures that have been  through the horrors of the war’ but who really is causing the War here? I don't know I don't see how this is human how this is Humane of people but that's fine that's fine rescue animals but just don't really cause the very killing and the very suffering of animals of all animals of all sties but just to add on to your point is that like some of the people that I'm seeing that have supposedly rescued the animals from Gaza because they're under War they got criticism on social media by like saying like but like you killed the family that you took the dog from and that person's response the one that rescued is like well you should see how they treat animals in Gaza and it's like that's another level of dehumanization because it's saying again going back to the moral superiority you think that you are more morally Superior because you rescue a dog and you're vegan and you abstain from eating animals try living in Gaza under constant bombardment and protecting all of your pets taking them with you being displaced walking on foot carrying them with you putting them on your head and actually caring for the animals not leaving them behind because you're facing like two minutes of warning before they bomb the building and it's just and not even a like a warning it's insane to even think about as a warning but  what I mean like just the fact that the fact that they see themselves as morally Superior because they care more about animals or they think that they care more about animals it's just not okay and going back to just the rightwing leftwing thing like yes in general  it doesn't matter what your beliefs are in as long as  you're helping the animals you're helping the animals okay but then there's the bigger context as you mentioned is like well if you're helping the animals don't do it because you want to be seen as the ‘rescuer’ of the animals, as the vegan capital of the world do it for the animals but those specifically I'm speaking about the top vegan figures in the sell Colony but also the companies that are that use the animal rights movement to claim themselves as very vegan friendly, they're using that specifically to draw Investments to draw interest in the oppressive regime and it's not  you could say that they are still caring about the animals and they're still protecting them okay but you're only protecting certain part of animals and only a certain  on one side of the equation you're only protecting them while they're with you but you're not protecting them when you're bombing them you're  so it it's just wild to me to think that there are people out there that  still see Israel as this vegan capital of the world and it didn't just become the vegan capital of the world all of a sudden because again to claim that you are the vegan capital and that you have the most vegan Army and you are more the superior your mindset about veganism had to change you had to have been programmed differently to stop viewing all sentient beings as equal and deserving of liberation and then only the animals and many people many people will say that like well veganism is only about the animals and it's like okay yes by default it's like yes you try to like abstain from any exploitation from the animals as much as possible and even like no use of animals and absolutely I agree with that but you're directly causing harm great harm to the environment you're even preventing birds from flying doing their regular migration Ina you're even I don't know what to tell you but I came across like an article I think it's by it was an interview for vegan in Palestine where at the time few years ago they were talking about how there there's this specific vet that is in one of the cities that has a lot of checkpoints to get to and they would find an animal that needs to be rescued, they're injured they need to be treated they would take them they would go on the checkpoint by the time they got the chance to cross that checkpoint the animal is dead and it's like your existence as a settler Colony as an apartheid state specifically causes harm to the animals as well as humans and yet you portray yourself as more or liberal and all of that and it's just it's just completely false and again the whole programming thing goes back to not just the fact that there's this part of like the convenience where there's they have the most vegan products and they're more developed and all of that but it's also part of making them as their national identity as their as israelis ‘we should be more vegan’ and this is pushed in a way to make people again not just deter them from criticizing Israel but also to push for investments in those companies that uphold the oppression. 

[MUSIC - Arab Lute/sad tone]

POETRY READING: One year ago today little Hind Rajab was taken away the 29th of January should be called Hind Rajab day! Hind Rajab, a 5-year-old girl from Gaza, traveling with her uncle and aunt and cousins in a car, they came under fire, scared and afraid her cousin received a call from the Red Crescent for aid, we heard shots then a little girl Hind was on the phone, the others dead, she was alone, we heard the little girl ask, come take me, she was trapped and unable to flee.12 days later her body was found the smell of death all around the ambulance sent to rescue the child never arrived the paramedics also died Ahmed al-Madhoun and  Yusuf al-Zeino, the name of two paramedical Heroes killed, while trying to save dear Hind, they met with a terrible end, their ambulance hit by a us-made anti-tank bomb, everybody knows attacking an ambulance is wrong, killing kids and healthcare workers are war crimes, and this kind of murder was happening all the time. Can somebody explain why unarmed people were attacked? And yet the Western countries still continued to have their back. The war crimes that the whole world was able to see, crimes committed by the israeli Army. The ICJ had asked to stop genocidal acts, but then a family in a car was attacked bullets shot into the car 335, none of the occupants survived, the ambulance sent with two paramedics was bombed and they were killed Israel doesn't respect International rules, Hind we will never forget nor forgive what the IDF did so many children have died so many parents have not survived, the world has witnessed a genocide.

[MUSIC - Arab Lute/sad tone]

WASEEM: Like I said earlier on, it's not just harmful and absolutely it is and that is one of the biggest impact that like it's being used to continue exploitation and harm to people but it's also very harmful for the vegan movement itself because if this cycle keeps going on where you have a vegan Revolution where you it just becomes part of your national identity where that's the core focus and the only focus is just to care about the animals and nothing else without actually taking into consideration anything else and then you go on to be  advertising yourself as like well I have more morality and more ethics than everybody else because I care about the animals and then you start saying that like well our country has more products that are vegan that make our life easier than that cycle keeps going around in a way that non-vegans will never be vegan because they're only going to see veganism as a tool to exploit others and it's just not okay and again I want to emphasize this however many times I can you should not be harming animals should not but you should not also use that as a way to harm others and that's what Israel does.

DALAL: This is very interesting that this all comes down to veganism being a moral shield when on the contrary veganism should be your moral compass that is in in in in in its very core the way you should be viewing the world around you with compassion with Humanity with Justice  and this is what the examples we see on social media at least to say on social media but really what we see is people saying oh I'm vegan they put those tiny emojis or stickers on their profiles with these catchy words of vegan or fighting for this fighting for that angry for this I'm happy for people to be angry but be angry for the right cause the right way and we're not judging people here but what we're hoping to do is really bring that light into the movement and trying what we're trying to help people be educated more and it's absolutely it doesn't make sense that we view veganism from one tiny lens only that is only fighting and advocating for animals which is absolutely correct you're fighting for Animals you're fighting for their for their Justice for their  just trying to to keep animals living in amongst us all in in in safety in without exploitation without any oppression but at the same time we're failing to see how this very oppression we're really just projecting on humans because someone is better than the other because people are blinded and how how can we help people as vegans from vegan to another how are we hoping to see things changing and for people to be more aware and more educated and also being Advocates themselves for veganism for animals for humans for all sentient beings but  doing the right things and being morally compassionate and ethically about the way they're leading this movement. 

WASEEM: I would have to start by saying that when we are seeing veganism being used as a tool we need to First clarify that and provide the proper image of it and what I mean by that is make yourself as vegans for Palestine as vegans who refuse to accept this type of exploitation of the movement make yourself as visibly aware as possible to tell others that are non-vegan before we actually go back to veganism tell others that are non-vegan this is not veganism this is not what we believe in this is not what it stands for and we refuse to accept it and we refuse to accept any not just Israel but any company any entity any anybody that is using that as a tool whether it's to deter them from criticizing their actions or to show the convenience and their and their developments so when you make that clear you're showing the actual side of what veganism means and that you exist and you're there to actually reduce that harm.

DALAL: The very fact that veganism for me has been the journey to be somebody who's challenged and critically thinking and looking into matters and causes and issues not just about my country Palestine but also about other communities about other people in different communities in different countries it's the way for me and I'm sure you can relate as well it's the way for us to see the world in in a in a more just and humane way and if being and that is my favourite quote if choosing veganism doesn't cultivate our morality and that for that to help us stand against all sorts and forms of oppression against all sentients I don't really know what would. 

WASEEM: Absolutely, well said! And I want to mention that like with regards to Vegans for Palestine when it when we first became a thing our and it still is in our in our bio it's uniting vegans for a free Palestine and the key word here is uniting vegans of course for a free Palestine but uniting vegans is an important thing I'm not saying that all vegans are the same I'm not saying that all vegans will have one specific goals and they will agree on everything but being united in what veganism actually means is one of the important steps of bringing about an actual just cause one of the just causes that we believe in is a free Palestine and that's what we hope for and I hope that the listeners will find important information that can help them not just combat Israeli vegan washing but also unite with other vegans to build a better movement to build a more just movement and we're not the only ones there's many other organizations and groups that are doing great work on that for Palestine and for uniting vegans for the for its true values so connect with them connect with everybody and learn from each other and again be in the educating part not the provoking part because that's what will help others that are outside of the movement to feel related to the movement and we're not like brand Israel we're not making them feel related to us for a purpose other than the just cause. 

DALAL: And we're here to keep the fight going and for a liberated, free Palestine. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!

WASEEM: From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free! 

DALAL: Thank you very much, Waseem. 

WASEEM: Thank you! Thank you, Dalal, I appreciate it,

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