Vegans for Palestine Podcast - Episode 06 - Veganism & the BDS Movement

In this episode, Dalal and Waseem discuss the intersection of BDS and Palestinian veganism, emphasising that both movements are rooted in justice and liberation, requiring ethical consumer choices beyond convenience. They critique how Zionist corporations exploit veganism for profit while remaining complicit in oppression, particularly through vegan-washing to obscure the israeli state’s violence and oppression of the people of Palestine.

This podcast is captioned for accessibility for Deaf and Hard of Hearing people. Autocaptions have been adjusted to ensure accessibility. This version is available here.

Please follow Vegans for Palestine here.

Learn more about Vegan BDS here. Learn more about the BDS Movement here.

Boycott Vegan Brands that fund and support genocide. Scroll through a list here. 

The clip used in this episode is from a speech by Omar Barghouti: BDS: Ending Complicity in Genocide and Apartheid'. This can be viewed here.  

The Palestinian Musicians featured in this episode are:

Aziz Maraka is a Palestinian composer, singer and song-writer. View his song here   عزيز - مافي منك - الفيديو الرسمي Follow Aziz here.

Faraj Suleiman is a Palestinian Pianist and composer. View his song here  فرج سليمان – متل الحلم رحتي Follow Faraj here.

Please follow, support and share both Palestinian artists. The Vegans for Palestine Podcast team are amazed and proud of their work, and we are honoured to showcase amazing Palestinian talent. 

Transcript

TIKTOCKER #1: Everyone who is boycotting the products that come from or support Isr@el… don't you feel healthier?

AZIZ MARAKA [♪♪SONG – MAFI MENNIK PLAYING ♪♪]

TIKTOCKER #2: Okay, let's talk about boycotts!

TIKTOCKER #3: Boycott, divestment, and sanctions. 

TIKTOCKER #4: This is your reminder that the BDS movement is a Palestinian-led movement… 

TIKTOCKER #2: …that has been doing this work for years and their entire focus is very targeted boycott sanctions divestments that are designed to put pressure on the Isr@eli apartheid regime. 

TIKTOCKER #3: So B boycott means withdrawing from commercial or social relations within a country organization person as a punishment or protest.

TIKTOCKER #1: Literally, every product we are boycotting is so incredibly toxic-from fast food chains to high fructose snacks to sodas to processed foods, boycotting is hurting them in more ways than one. 

TIKTOCKER #3: D is for divestment which is exactly what it sounds like - the opposite of investment, which means you're pulling out investments or subsidies that you would have been giving a corporation. And S is for sanctions.

TIKTOCKER #4:,,,and sanctioned companies that support Isr@el.

TIKTOCKER #3: …. and a sanction is a measure imposed on a state a group or an individual as a punishment for certain actions. 

TIKTOCKER #2: These organized methods of boycotting and divesting have had historical precedent; it's a big part of what dismantled the South African apartheid regime and the whole goal is to get people to focus in on specific targets to have the most impact! 

TIKTOCKER #1: So, keep boycotting and keep getting healthier! 

RAYAN: Hello, its Rayan and this is episode 6 of the Vegans for Palestine podcast [MUSIC ENDS]. Did you know that certain companies that market themselves as being “vegan-friendly”- are actually complicit in genocide? The BDS movement exposes how certain brands and corporations enable the Isr@eli genocidal war upon the people of Palestine. In this episode, Dalal and Waseem delve into the need for global vegan communities to know about the BDS movement and boycott certain vegan companies that fund the Isr@eli apartheid regime.

DALAL: Welcome back, Waseem! 

WASEEM: Thank you, Dalal! Thank you for having me!

DALAL: When we look at the BDS movement and how, over the last few years, it's been increasing the global attention for Palestine and how more and more campaigns, demonstrations, and support are taking place across the world in different countries, in the name of justice, solidarity and advocacy for Palestine. We have seen university campuses encampments corporate actions with boycott shops and companies shutting down their branches in different countries or cutting their ties with Isr@el. We have seen the cultural boycott also at the level of artists academics and cultural institutions, but the overall international solidarity for Palestine has been seeing a lot of success more and more attention that's being brought to the world through the advocacy and the campaigns that are led and are done under the boycott divestment sanctions movement’s initiative. So as vegans and Palestinians tell me a little bit about your perspective on this and how as vegans we have been advocating for the boycott and for the justice in Palestine through the philosophy of veganism, through our understanding and values and principles that we do not exploit, we do not use or through the principles and values that we stand in solidarity with humans, with all sentient beings?

WASEEM: Yeah, one thing important to keep in mind, when it comes to how I view my values as a vegan; it's rooted in justice in the sense that if I know that something I would be doing could contribute harm to others, and in in this case, the others is the sentient living being the animals I should refrain from doing so if I know purchasing a certain product or being in business with a certain company or advertising for a company- I am a food content creator by nature so working with such things that I know is deeply- when it comes to companies that may have vegan products but at the same time contribute great harm to the animals, I wouldn't want to be doing anything with them, right? The way that our corporate system works is all these large conglomerates have smaller and smaller businesses that they absolve and those small businesses are the ones that are starting up as a vegan company and then they get bought out by larger companies that are non-vegan to in an effort to kind of vegan wash themselves not everybody but when companies buy these products because they're actually competitors and they continue still exploiting the animals in other departments that is what I'm talking about as vegan washing and that concept doesn't it's related to anything that uses the animal rights movement as a tool for cleaning out their image and again not every company does that but the larger ones that have not only direct contributions to harm of animals but also multiple other areas including harm to the environment which part of the vegan movement strives for is that as well and then of course oppression of other living beings such as humans so this is why as vegans it's not just put your money where your mouth is and like not put your money in a place that you wouldn't want to contribute but it's also just a lifestyle that we live by which is again rooted in justice in the sense that if I shouldn't be causing harm to others. Unfortunately many of the ways that animals are exploited is for profit like whether it's like shows that use animals like for like dog fighting for example people pay for that horse riding people pay for just like that for races and stuff that is not just unnecessary but it causes exploitation to the animals themselves and views them as a tool for profit that is something that we stand by as vegans that we shouldn't be contributing to and we even call on organizations or on certain countries in some cases that are very known for certain things that exploit the animals we call on them to not take part of that to create policy that that makes that illegal for example so part of being vegan and boycotting is a nature not just with money but also their actions so you boycott anything that is causing harm to animals in that sense is how I would think about it and then when it comes to our discussion with veganism Palestine and BDS it's very much the sim similar in the sense that a lot of the companies that we may be supporting as vegans because they have great vegan products sometimes are often bought out by larger corporations that contribute harm to many areas the animals the environment the people and with our with our discussion with Palestine they have great ties to complicity and Palestinian oppression whether it's through direct support of the so-called Isr@eli military or through operating on land or using resources that should not be or that internationally recognized territory so there's a lot of complications with that and the important part here is that focusing on like I said early on is our impact as vegans understanding what our impact is with regards to boycotting Isr@el's contribution to veganism is crucial because as we discussed in our previous talk the idea of Isr@el presenting themselves as vegan and having the most technologically advanced industry in food tech and creating vegan alternatives protein alternatives and all of that - that was all a strategic move by the government and it's backed by them it's important for the listeners to actually grasp the full picture of how Isr@el uses and exploits the animal rights movement to divert criticism from the movement about what they do and then also buy and get investments and interest in the economy of Isr@el which has been growing and I just want to pause here and just say that when it comes to how I think of being vegan and boycotting Isr@el even though Isr@el is known in the world as like the ‘world leader of veganism’ and that was self-painted and like self-proclaimed but their contributions are now starting to grow globally and that needs to be prevented so that we don't normalize that relations with viewing Isr@el as a need for the world to continue sustaining and for their environmental impact as they claim because many people may not know this but like the leaders of Isr@el like Netanyahu and their President Herzog and previously Naftali Bennett and all of them have used that type of rhetoric about like alternative protein and Isr@el being a powerhouse for changing the environment and helping with the food insecurity issue and all of that but we know how tied they are to causing oppression and starvation, for example for 17 years now, causing a siege on there and preventing all of that preventing a sustainable life there, and causing and creating an unliveable, unbearable situation that even like in the early 2010s ,it was announced that would become like an unliveable place by 2020, and people continue to struggle there all because of the way that the occupation takes place and on the other hand their leaders go and tout themselves as environmentally friendly trying to solve world problems in food and all of that so it's much deeper than the fact that companies profit from operating in Isr@el but it's also the way that it prevents vegans to even criticize that.

DALAL: Part of the things you were talking about takes me to an article that I read about it had this title “How heroes in the kitchen are cooking vegan meals” line and

WASEEM: “Heroes in the Kitchen preparing vegan means for Heroes on the front line”

DALAL: Yeah, I think you read that as well and it's very interesting how there is this chasm between just treating food as just some sort of a consumer product, I think yeah so with titles like that, it's quite interesting how there is this chasm between the food as merely the product but also on the political activist level there is a lot to look into when we think of who are these heroes? why they are portraying themselves as heroes? where is the heroism when you are enabling the genocide and the ethnically cleansing of Palestinians and not just the people but also the land and the animals and all the sentient beings? But let's go back to the point where you mentioned how Isr@el is being part of the vegan industry and contributing to veganism, so what is that all about if you could maybe give us some examples of these corporates or some of these products or services that they are “veganizing”? 

WASEEM: Like I said this is something that the government strive to do and have been promoting for over a decade now but more specifically after 2017ish so in the mid of that period Isr@el was becoming the vegan revolution and like getting very popular in in that sense and the Isr@eli government saw the opportunity in that because they wanted to capitalize on the fact that more people are going vegan so they created this initiative where they joined forces for example with the Isr@eli company called Strauss which has been on the BDS list or has been a target of BDS in the past they were co-founders of Sabra Hummus which recently we know Pepsi bought them all out so that they can they can stop being boycotted but that's probably not going to happen but anyway Jos is a company that is very s complicit in in oppressing Palestinians they directly contribute with financial contributions and food packages to the IOF the Isr@eli occupation forces and so in the 2017 around that time I believe is when a company called Aleph Farms was created through a government partnership with Straw and that partnership was to create something called a startup incubator which basically is an investment arm of Strauss company so they look at startups they invest in them and help them commercialize and like become more like in a manufacturing sense even though Straw itself is not vegan they have directly invested and helped with the growth of the alternative protein with that so what I was getting back to is that the Isr@eli government there's a body called Isr@el innovation authority and they are the investment side the investment department of that side where the government put technological investments in so they co-founded this company called Aleph Farms and they used they used patent technology from a university called technon and that Technion Institute of Technology is actually complicit with Elbeit systems which is an arms manufacturing deeply complicit deeply on the BDS target so you can see so many connections to that but the point is that it's all to obscure the fact that there's complicity so the government creates this protein alternative product called Aleph farms to get vegans to meet the demands of vegans i should mention though that like Aleph Farms has just recently this year I believe got their or late last year got their approval for like FDA [US FOOD&DRUG ADMINISTRATION] approval or not similar to FDA but like basically approves them to start selling directly to customers so now they're going to start expanding around the world and there's partnerships coming up with different areas around the world which will ultimately help the economy of Isr@el and will contribute to st which is as we said complicit so you can see how they use veganism as a way to as merely a product that is just for consumerism that is just for your convenience to eat less meat but really it's contributing so much harm to Palestinians of course and then additionally the way that this whole thing is being framed is they're touting themselves as like going to solve like world food problems as I said and things like that which has a cultural impact of that and it's important to highlight that too that like as boycotting gets it's not just economics it's not just like with affecting the economy but it's also rejecting that normalization and that idea of yes Isr@el is green and friendly and people should do business with them because they're going to help solve world problems i keep saying that word a lot but I read it a lot we not only reject like not just not buy into these products but also we like we do active demanding of big corporations governments even that are partnering with these companies because one thing to keep in mind is that like how this works and this is my understanding of like reading about it there's a lot to read about how cultivated meat or lab grown meat as they as it's actually labelled this happens through basically science and medicine and like science and medicine like the study of that to do biopsy of animals to use their cells without killing them necessarily but to use their cells to grow meat and that usually happens through partnership of complicit universities so like another example of that is a company called Believer Meats and it was previously called Future Meat Technologies but now it's called Believer Meats that's important to note because many of those companies that I keep coming across have changed names and I wonder why but point is something there yeah just trying to hide some things back to this will tie into it but back to what I was saying with future meat technologies that now became believer meats that's one of the companies that now during the Resa genocide made a partnership with UAE to expand that cultural meat lab grown meat whatever you want to call it and make it more accessible there basically and start selling it so that's something that is very important to note of and I want to start off with as a vegan Palestinian as a vegan Arab that we should absolutely fundamentally reject such things because not only is that like normalization on a commercial level because we know that the UAE has normalized with that which by the way I came across an article saying that like this wouldn't have happened and not just this specifically with believer meetats but also they did a partnership or invested in ALF farm a few years ago so there's an article that I came across that was saying this wouldn't have happened without the Abraham Accords that Trump led and that normalized with the UAE and it's very true because before then you couldn't do such things and make it normal to to just do business with them especially especially companies that are complicit because like I said believer meets I was getting to that point earlier is that it was founded by a professor from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem which is recognized as partially partially located on occupied Palestinian territory and in addition to that they have previously I believe in 2014 and then again in 2019 have made statements supporting the IOF saying like we support our warrior students and they hosted some sort of army base or something like that on their campus later on so the university is deeply complicit in the sense that they are very much with the occupation with the oppression of Palestinians and they're even located on or partially located on occupied Palestinian territory so they have deep complicity there and they created this believer meet company that is now in partnership with the UAE and not just the UAE they also have a partnership with Nestle so it's not a partnership not the the deals the deal is not like fully disclosed but so I don't know the extent of how much economic wise that would contribute but the fact that they have partnership in this day and they have partnership starting to grow globally is important for us to take note of and reject and boycott companies that are making business ties with them so that they can cut those ties and stop being complicit so that's with the case with the liver meat and of course as we said withAlephfarms the parent company as I said draws financially donates and gives food packages so to the IF so there's complicity there but when we were discussing and as you mentioned vegan friendly and the way that they vegan wash it's not this is important because it's tied into the idea of making it acceptable for vegans to view Isr@el as the world leader of veganism in order to have the economic ties and in order to grow their economy and all of that so not just the it's it's not just the organization vegan friendly itself which I think people should be boycotting because many reasons and we'll talk about them in a minute but one of them is that they're expanding to UK US right now and I see their products in so-called Canada so that company vegan friendly also donated to the IF during the genocide so there's also that where they're complicit in like oppressing Palestinians causing and supporting war criminals while expanding and making their products that have this certificate as vegan friendly as more accessible to people so that vegans can just contribute to that but the point that I was going to me mention and the impact the economic impact comes from those so-called lab grown meat and alternative protein startups that are coming from the seller colony because I mentioned the companyAlephfarms I mentioned the company believer meats but them too and also redefine meat which is a plant-based company that is now expanding in Europe there's over 70 plus restaurants across Europe that sells it that's as of like a few years ago so now they're even more expanding more and more all three of them were funded or have been supported by the Isr@el Innovation Authority which is a government body and they have invested like that I what's it called the Isr@el Innovation Authority has invested one of like I can't remember the numbers but in like I think 18 million or 28 million something like that over the years within that industry and in addition to that so it's not just like to help those businesses grow and make veganism more acceptable accessible sorry but they also are used in government propaganda videos so you have the foreign ministry working with Redefined Meat with Aleph Farms with Believer Meats to create videos to discuss the ethical and sustainable ways of growing food now and being more environmentally friendly and how this is necessary and how Isr@el is the perfect place for it and that like those videos were being shared across embassies worldwide and on social media and it's all in English so it's not like it's all for propaganda to the outside world to be like "Oh there's so much development in this area let me go see if I want to invest." And that helps the economy that helps the oppression and so on so that's why with these three companies they're they have great impact on the economy they're owned by larger organizations and companies and then also they're expanding globally as I said so it's important that we reject that if we know of a partnership coming up or a business tie coming up call it off if you see a restaurant offering redefine meat try to first of all don't order it but then try to work with educating or informing the owners of that restaurant of the complicity of such things so that they can cut ties there's a lot of important stuff that we should be doing as vegans to reject that vegan washing and to not allow Isr@el to just continue growing its economy at the oppress at the expense and the oppression of Palestinians especially while using the alternative protein and the animal rights movement as an exploitation tool for that. 

OMAR BARGHOUTI: Since oppression is the root cause of violence, those of us who sincerely care about ending all violence, must act to end Isr@el's 75-year-old regime of settler colonialism and apartheid. This begins with ending complicity. Launched in 2005 by the absolute majority in Palestinian society, the BDS movement is led by the largest coalition in Palestinian society. It is inspired by the South African anti-apartheid struggle, by the US civil rights struggle, and it's rooted in a century of Palestinian popular resistance. It aims at ending Isr@el's occupation and apartheid and the right of Palestinian refugees to return. BDS is consistently intersectional, it rejects all forms of discrimination and racism including antisemitism. There is nothing Jewish about Isr@el's ethnic cleansing, land theft, apartheid or genocide. [APPLAUSE]. Therefore, there's nothing anti-Jewish per se in supporting BDS to end these crimes and the structure of oppression that perpetrates them. BDS recommends the following peaceful forms of advocacy and mobilization to end complicity peacefully and strategically: 1) Pressure policymakers to endorse a comprehensive arms embargo on Isr@el ban the import of products of companies operating illegally in the occupied Palestinian territory and withdraw all UK investments from companies implicated in illegal settlements.

[Applause] 2) Support peaceful disruptions sit-ins, occupations targeting government buildings as well as corporate enablers of genocide and apartheid especially arms manufacturers investment firms and institutions media universities and cultural spaces that may be complicit. 3) Support declaring your community union cultural space an apartheid free zone refusing to accept funding institutional relations or sponsorship from Isr@el or its complicit institutions. 4) Support trade unions blocking or disrupting arms shipments to Isr@el. 5) Escalate strategic boycotts and divestment campaigns targeting companies that are complicit in Isr@eli crimes.

DALAL: Knowing what we know now what is the importance of the boycott and following the boycott targets and working towards achieving that goal?

WASEEM: So understanding our unity as like a community is very and like its impact is very important and I think that's another thing that's shared with the BDS movement is that to make change you have to have a few factors and one of them is being united against a specific target that's why with the BDS you don't see the hundreds and even thousands of companies that are complicit all listed there they have specific ones that are causing more impact and also probably easier to make change for so like more popular companies that would receive public image a negative public image that would hurt them more those are the companies that if they're being targeted for having such a high impact on the Isr@eli economy that oppresses Palestinians those are targets that should be addressed and chosen. When it comes to veganism it's the same thing is that like our unity against companies that are complicit not just with the oppression of Palestinians but understanding its impact overall like its impact on the vegan movement and then also its impact on actually harming the animals in the long run because like we said many of these companies are like parent companies that are not necessarily vegan so either way having understanding their impact on the various oppressions across the board causes us to make sure that we boycott them to create that change, to create a change where we only have companies that are working and striving towards the values of veganism rather than abusing it so, yeah, we should we should stick to our values and understanding that if we stick to them then there's there is that change to come not necessarily by accepting anything that comes our way to make our life easier for our for our own convenience that's the part that we need to understand as vegans is to detach consumerism from our movement and think of our values first.

DALAL: Yeah I mean it's all about finding these connections and the interconnectedness of our struggle as humans and also the strive for justice and liberation it's how both the veganism and the advocacy and the justice for Palestine work together it's quite interesting when we see vegans who would fight for animal rights and are proactive and very vocal about that but at the same time they failed to see that animals in different countries are having a lot of issues because of a certain entity that is exploiting even nature and the human life and in our case it's occupation so both movements are connected they were in alignment with the fight and the advocacy for justice and when we try to look at things from a different also perspective the environmental and the social justice are also essential parts of what the BDS is calling for and at the same time what veganism is fighting for because they both eventually address environmental justice and when you when you look at these examples that we have these corporates that are exploiting nature in certain ways to produce and provide to these consumers certain products with certain qualities and standards they also a lot of times people fail to realize that this is all happening at the expense of the environment and the destruction the deforestation or the exploitation of the land the water resources you name it us as consumers just generally as consumers we really have a lot of privilege to access to have pretty much whatever we need because now you have everything available at the at the shelves in in different supermarkets around you with different prices whether it's affordable to you or not it can be affordable to someone else but I think the question is about how us as consumers we have privilege and a lot of people who are already vegans they have the privilege when you talked earlier about the lab grown meat not everyone can afford that or have access to that or even like until now these the different vegan friendly labelled products not every vegan still has access to them i think this is something that is there within the capitalist mindset of corporates that they create this sort of gap between consumers that we can both be vegans but you're more of on that elite side of veganism yes someone is on that middle class kind of veganism that you want to treat yourself you want to just kind of enjoy certain things? 

WASEEM: Yeah!

DALAL: But at the same time, the way the economy works it really prohibits that and that kind of gap creates this sort of blindness that I see it through the privilege how some people are totally blind they care about the product they want to get at the end of the day they care about the service they want to get at the end of the day and they're proud they're vegan they're maintaining that vegan lifestyle somehow but there is a lot of just blindness here happening and I think I think I I want maybe to address this in a way how the role of privilege plays a role in enabling these corporates to exploit people into being more consumers and subscribing to more and more products and services that are genocide friendly and media friendly and creating this sense that you're vegan you want to get certain things here they're available for you just take them don't question don't ask don't research don't do anything and you're just a you're just a consumer at the at the end of the day and this is the product for you.

WASEEM: So many thoughts came to mind when I when I'm hearing you speak about this because I want to highlight two of them and one of them is recognizing that this idea of needing meat and needing egg alternatives and needing the best cheese alternative and all of that is a colonialist mindset like you said you were saying about like kind of like classism and like being elite that you're vegan on the side of like morality but then you're also able to afford and access those great products so that your convenience is not affected at all and you live your life exactly as it was before you hear vegans say this all the time that like oh go vegan like your life won't change a thing like you'll still do whatever you do before and while that's true it's understanding that it's not because of the consumerism part of it it's because of the values of it like we said so recognizing that as Arabs we have a lot of not just from the food side but when we talk about the food side we have a lot of like vegan friendly already like by nature naturally vegan things that we eat on a regular basis that sustains our health so to think that in order for me to go vegan I need to find an alternative to the eggs that I used to eat is pointless and that plays into the idea of me not giving up my convenience on that knowing that that was contributing harm to animals that's one thing I want to say but then the other side is the way you phrased it i can't remember exactly what you said but I I also came across and maybe this will wrap up our conversation with regards to the vegan washing site because I can talk about this forever but Vegan Friendly the founder his name is Omry Paz and he was recently or a few years ago really in an interview just when they were starting to expand to the UK and the US and in that interview he was discussing how the journey of how isr@el went vegan and the vegan and all of that and one thing that caught my attention was him saying before this revolution started so before 2011 2010… 

DALAL: I like how he is saying ‘revolution’ [LAUGHS] 

WASEEM: That's what he calls it that's what they like and honestly that's the thing is that like they want to use that veganism as something that people are morally now fighting for and it's a good cause and now they contribute good and they can just like chill out on the horrible stuff that they do and the occupation and everything else and they use and it works it works so well with them but what caught my attention in that interview was that he was saying was saying that before this revolution started Isr@el was the least vegan country in the world people barely knew anything about veganism and people didn't eat like vegans and all that stuff but then when the production of lab grown meat and alternative products and all of that they became the greatest vegan country in the world more vegans and all of that and then the other part was him saying that because people learned that there is exist like that that that vegan products exist in a way that doesn't give up our convenience of eating what we used to eat before those corporations and he names them he names Nestle he names Straws he names Uni Liver and a bunch of others which are non-vegan those companies are non-vegan but they he names how all of a sudden those companies were so invested in creating more and more vegan options for Isr@el because more and more vegans need them and they saw that this would and he even says that like it's a great way for them to make more profits and they make they in fact make more profits on those products because of many reasons one of them is apparently being cheaper to do so but the other reason is that and this is like something that he says is the vegan population is financially stronger here so they so that the corporations can charge higher and people will still buy it anyway and that's the idea is that like it's an elitist capitalist view of veganism that I'm not going I'm willing to pay extra to gain back my convenience and not harm the animals okay great but those products are complicit in genocide and complicit in apartheid are complicit in occupation and those products are being again going globally around the world or starting to grow globally around the world and they donate to the IF so it's again just a mix of using the products to cover up for Isr@el's crimes by showing that their soldiers are so vegan friendly and they eat vegan and they're even during times of war they're still maintaining their ethics and all of that bullcrap[ __ ] sorry about that, but they do all of that and then they go and like advertise it as sustainable environmentally friendly solves a problem in the world for food insecurity and all of that and then vegans outside on in the West are like "Oh this is great this is amazing i can't wait to go on my vegan trip as a tourist in Isr@el and I can't wait to get these products in my city that can make me eat the exact same egg as I used to before but without harming the animals because it came from a cell from the animal which is not vegan like it's not vegan veganism says you do not use anything that comes from an animal a biopsy from an animal to create lab grown meat comes from an animal if you want to stick to the ethics side of it and the actual logistics side of it as well so yeah it's very complicated with that because again it goes to what your what your question was and the idea of it being a privilege and it's a privilege to be a consumer within the vegan space because you get access to all of these things knowing full well that it contributes to the starvation of others and again this is not just a Palestine thing it's a worldwide thing but specifically with Palestine and how Isr@el uses veganism it's a huge reason for us to understand the impact that as vegan consumers we have to help with the BDS movement and to reject Isr@el's contributions in any way shape or form whether culturally economically that's what I would say about veganism and vegans why vegans should be boycotting anything that contributes to the oppression of others and, in my case, Palestinians.

DALAL: Yeah, I mean there is a lot of power there and the BDS movement really articulates that power the people that that the people have and it's this is not something that we should take lightly it's basically it should instil in us our purpose to keep fighting to keep advocating to keep educating people on what they are missing what they're missing on and as we said earlier although there is a ceasefire now but then again there is no truce there is no seizing from the boycott until all shapes and forms of atrocities of exploitation of destruction are seized and realizing our role as vegans and also vegans for Palestine we should really take the steps forward to simply educate and people because often times it's us lacking not just not just the vegans but also people generally they lack the knowledge and they lack the information and even though people have access to social media they have access to creators they have access to different resources they still fail to have access to the sources and the information that really can educate them on the privileges that they have and how they can use they can use that forward to advocate and to fight for justice and equality and from a from a vegan activist perspective to fight for the right things.

WASEEM: As you said with the ceasefire the truce is not there and the exploitation the oppression did not stop and, that's part of the core reason why I, even in the beginning of this conversation I said that like at its core BDS is a justice-led movement, like justice-based movement, just like veganism is so BDS doesn't like BDS movement didn't just like is like ‘okay now we achieved the ceasefire we're good now’, no they still have great campaigns targeting those that are complicit in the oppression across the occupied West Bank upholding the apartheid any of the things that our work to achieve justice doesn't end with a ceasefire, and it really almost never ends if you want to be honest about it, because justice is like a never end like- you have to just keep fighting for anytime you see injustice and when with regards to Palestine, that would not happen until first of all Palestine is free and the Zionist occupation is dismantled, and we're able to have the Palestinians in the diaspora and in occupied Palestine to go back to their homes as it's given to them per international law and also per ethics and justice that we all can agree on is that like indigenous people should not be displaced should not be ‘genocided’ and taken away from their homes and denied their rights to exist there so all of these things have not been met with a ceasefire none of these things have been met with the ceasefire in fact more fire has been continuing it hasn't ceased so yeah our cause doesn't stop and not as vegans and not as for Palestinians and as Palestinians of course we must keep on with our fight with regards to BDS until justice is served and Palestinians have their freedom.

DALAL: Yeah. The first day after the ceasefire it's a call for us to learn more about what is yet to be done with the 2.3 million Palestinians in in occupied Palestine still going through all the atrocities of Isr@eli occupation and the that should be our reminder and call to push for more action and advocacy and mobilization we hope to see more mobilization and a push for an end of impunity for these corporates and to hold these people accountable not just for the sake of humanity but also for the sake of all sentient beings for nature for the animals because it's not just the human that is being here and through the vegan washing that is being done, but also the environment and the animals as well. I think what we can what we can say is I mean veganism and the BDS movement are both rooted in principles of justice and liberation and opposing oppression and we hope with today's episode, this is an invite and a call for you to read more about the BDS movement and the great initiatives that they're doing towards justice and liberation. And veganism again, it seeks to end the exploitation of nonhuman animals and also the BDS aims to challenge the systems of oppression against Palestinians and when you think of it it's when you're fighting for animals you're also working towards and aligning with the same values and principles that the BDS movement is advocating for, and with that - Waseem, it was great talking to you! 

WASEEM: You too, Dalal!

DALAL: I had a great time unpacking these different vegan and not-so-vegan friendly aspects of certain aspects of the movement. 

WASEEM: Thank you for having me, thank you, Dalal! I really enjoyed our chat! 

FARAH SULEIMAN [SINGING] ‘GONE LIKE A DREAM”: 

صوت فيروز بكسر السكو ♪♪

بتغني كان غير شكل الزيتون ♪♪

وانا مخي صاحي بترجى بعيني ♪♪

وعيني مغمضة مش نعسانة ♪♪

بدهاش تفتّح على يوم تاني ♪♪

وانت مش حدّي ♪♪

انت مش هون ♪♪

لشو تفتّح وتشوف الكون ♪♪

كتير أيام تمنيت تروحي ♪♪

تاخدي الملل وتاخدي الحب ♪♪

يتبخّر أمل، يتكنّس زعل ♪♪

توالي حنيّة بالشنطة نضب ♪♪

"واغني "راحوا. كلّن راحوا ♪♪

ومتل الحلم ♪♪

بطلتي هون ♪♪

اخضرّ البحر وازرقّ الكون ♪♪

قلتلك يا حب مع السلامة ♪♪

شايف حرية بترقص قدامي ♪♪

بس الحرية قلبت تعاسة ♪♪

وفوق الكئابة محوّط تياسة ♪♪

وفيروز بعدا معبيّة الصالون ♪♪

وانت مش حدّي ♪♪

انت مش هون ♪♪

اسودّ الصبح وانهدّ الكون ♪♪