Vegans for Palestine Podcast - Episode 08 - Anti-Zionist Vegan Passover

Dalal and Sophie talk about the intersections between veganism, Judaism, and anti-Zionism. They discuss how Sophie celebrates Passover (Pesach) in a vegan and anti-colonial way, connecting the holiday’s themes of liberation with Palestinian solidarity. Additionally, they discuss the importance of capacity building and find similarities in their veganism and support for Palestine. 

This episode has edited auto captions and transcript for Deaf and Hard of Hearing people available here. 

You can follow Sophie here. 

Follow Tzedek Collective here

Read  'A Jewish Plea' by Sara Roy here 

Antizionist Pesach - Frequently asked questions here (by Tzedek Collective).

Virtual Anti-Zionist Seder Towards Collective Liberation (video features ASL interpreter).

'Four questions for talking about Palestine during Seder' available here

"On Pesach, we call for a Free Palestine" - by Loud Jewish Collective, view here

Why we are holding an anti-Zionist Palestine Solidarity Seder by Ohad Kozminsky.

“Next year in Jerusalem” - Let’s talk about it! (Click here)

JVP holding protest Seder- watch here. 

Jewish Council of Australia - Chag Pesach Sameach 

Siddur Tatir Tz’rurah - available here. 

An Antizionist Evening Prayerbook - available here.

AntiZionist Seder reading. Available here

Global Arab, Mizrahi, and SWANA Jews Nakba Day Video.

The forgotten history of Arab Jews | Avi Shlaim. Watch here. 

"I cannot write a poem about Gaza" by Tusieta Avia (Author’s note: I wrote this poem in 2014 in response to the Gaza War. 2,000 people died, the vast majority were Gazan Palestinians).

Palestinian Musicians in this episode include:
Mahmoud Shalabi - Flute.
Naseem Alatrash - Cello. Follow Naseem here. 
Yasmeen Abushawish - Singer. Follow Yasmeen here.

The Vegans for Palestine Podcast team would like to thank Sophie for joining us this episode, and would like to recognise the amazing talent and work of Mahmoud, Naseem and Yasmeen.

Transcript

[♪♪Music] ♪♪Gaza. Gaza. ♪♪ Gaza. ♪♪Intifada. Intifada. Intifada. Intifada. Gaza. ♪♪ Long   live the Intifada. ♪♪ Gaza. ♪♪ [Music ♪♪]

RAYAN: Hello, it’s Rayan and this is episode 8 of the Vegans for Palestine podcast. As anti-Zionism grows among Jewish communities, several of these communities have held seders during Passover (or Pesech) with a focus on expressing solidarity with the people of Palestine. In this episode, Dalal has an interesting chat with Sophie, a vegan who is part of a group called Tzedek Collective, which is an intergenerational, anti-colonial and anti-Zionist Jewish group. Sophie describes Passover in detail in relation to their veganism, Judaism and anti-Zionism.

SOPHIE: So my name is Sophie. I currently live in Sydney, Australia- which is the unceded Gadigal and Wangal Land. I'm Jewish and I was raised in Jewish communities in the UK and Australia. My maternal grandmother's family were Jews from Eastern Europe and my maternal grandfather's family were Tunisian Jews. My father is South Asian and he is an adult convert to Judaism. I, myself, am strongly opposed to Zionism and I'm also vegan and I've been vegan for 15 years now.

DALAL: And why did you go vegan? 15 years is an impressive journey! I'm sure with a lot of experiences there in it, so tell me more about that and why you chose veganism?

SOPHIE: I was raised in a household where we already didn't really eat very much meat. We ate fish but we otherwise didn't eat meat and largely because of the preference of my parents but also because of Kosher כשר dietary laws, it's more complicated for the kitchen to have meat and dairy in the same house and so some people will choose to not have meat in the house to avoid that. So I didn't really grow up eating a lot of meat generally anyway, as a teenager I had quite a few friends at school who were vegan and so, I spent from spending time with them and listening to what they had to say and their experiences and what why they chose to be vegan, I think it sort of took me to a place of learning more about the world and learning more about where food comes from and factory farming in particular and what that involves cause because before that I wasn't really aware of any of these things, I think that that's true of a lot of people they even if they sort of they might know on the very surface level, I think even before that I didn't know even on a surface level, I had no idea really where anything any of these things came from and I think for me that was like an opening into understanding more about how everyday things in the world are not always what they seem to be, like again like that surface level understanding of how the world works, this was kind of like looking beneath the surface a little bit, and realizing that what I thought was true maybe wasn't, and that's not I guess that was not just about where food comes from, but also how our clothes are made, and how capitalism oppresses people as well as animals, and how those things all came to be connected to each other, so I think it's been a long journey of trying to understand that and how these things have fit together, but I think that's kind of where it started. 

DALAL: And having dairy products with the meat in the same kitchen, and given that you're also Jewish, how did you find the intersectionality between Judaism and between veganism how did those two philosophies come together for you?

SOPHIE: I think that's an interesting question, because I think there's a few different ways to approach it. I think you can look at sort of values within Judaism which you can interpret as veganism being a part of that, I think you can also look at the texts, and I should say as well I'm not a religious scholar, I'm not an expert in any way, a lot of my knowledge of these things is basic, but so the so a lot of what I'm speaking on from my own personal interpretation of these things and in my personal experience. Many other people disagree with me, but I think maybe I'll start off with the values of what's seems to connect to like this idea of social justice within Judaism, because I think that that's sort of where I personally kind of see the intersection. So Judaism is a lot of different things to a lot of different people, it's a cultural practice, it's a faith, it's also an identity, it's a heritage. This can be all of those things or some of those things to all different people, and everyone's experience is different. When I consider the values that I was taught as a child and the things that I that I learned that I felt were aligned with my own personal values I think about things we talk about to do with like repairing or improving the world, like making the world a better place seeking justice and striving for a just and equitable society and that being like a universal moral obligation, that's something that humans should strive for, there's things that relate specifically a lot of these things relate in the in the way that they're described in the text relate specifically to humans ,but a lot of the ways that in which I interpret them isn't how they relate to life in general like this idea that all humans deserves dignity. I believe that that's the case for all beings like all beings do deserve dignity and when we talk about every life being a whole world that's true of all life not just human beings for me anyway and I share the same perspective with you as well yeah, and I think there's a lot of there's a there's people who would disagree with that across different across different cultures and different faiths but there are also people who would agree and I think get like I said it's a very personal thing and it's about like your own values and how that resonates with how you feel but there's also a lot to do with not standing by when the safety of another is threatened and again for me that also that's also the case for animals we have to protect and take care of each other and that means taking action and making our voices heard regardless of whether or not we're personally affected or harmed by something and so that kind of relates to these this idea of mutual responsibility and doing what's right even if yeah, you're not you're not the person who's being harmed so like I said I think for me that's true for animals as well but there's also like a big within Judaism I think there's this big thing about reflection and inquiry and questioning things and that these asking questions in the pursuit of justice that's that has a lot to do with challenging authority and the systems that perpetuate injustice and so that's not just the systems that perpetuate injustice towards human beings at least from my interpretation but also the the systems that perpetuate injustice towards animals of which there are many as we both know, and like I said some people are going to think about that in terms of when they when they understand these values they're going to think about them in terms of placing humans above animals and in some cases they're also going to interpret them as placing Jewish lives above non-Jewish lives, because there are certain ways that these texts can be interpreted to mean that, but like I said my interpretation is that they should apply equally to all beings, and that repairing the world should not just be about bettering your own position in life, like it's shouldn't be a selfish thing it should or at the expense of someone else, and I guess it would be hypocritical to me to claim that oppressing another person or animal would be consistent with this idea of striving for justice, and I think it's the idea that life is life is very precious and that we should be recognizing that and valuing that above everything else so that that's like the more general the big picture I guess version but when we think more about like connecting those values those ideas of social justice with veganism more specifically there is there are some things as well within the text where they talk about avoidance of harm not just to people but to animals so that like acting with compassion and minimizing unnecessary suffering to animals specifically and there again there are multiple possible ways to interpret this the Torah doesn't forbid the eating of meat or animal products by any means but the dietary laws are very specific and there are people who make arguments for eating meat as having a spiritual component sort of as part of a covenant that's made with God and I am aware of some Orthodox Jews who primarily are vegetarian most of the time but they will eat meat on Shabbat or on holidays because that that's as part of their personal practice that's what they deem to be that yeah, that that's what that's what's important to them but I think again personally for me my interpretation of how we repair the world of how we improve it like when we're trying to do that is eating meat really necessary for this for me? I don't think that that's the case and it's clear that things like factory farming cause immense suffering to animals and some people might some people's version of trying to live those values means choosing products animal products specifically that are not from factory farms or from other places. but my personal choice is to be vegan because I feel like that's the most that I can do in order to minimize that that kind of harm there are obviously many practices like ritual sacrifice that we no longer regularly perform and there are other symbolic gestures and I think we'll talk about that a little bit when we yeah, when we talk about Pesech that we use or eat instead and sometimes those symbolic foods are animal products but they don't necessarily have to be like a lot there are many different traditions that exist in many different places and those have changed over times over thousands of years I think it's possible for us to adapt the way that we practice these things to the world that we live in today and do that in a way that shows kindness and compassion for animals and for people and a recognition that there are actually different choices available to us now than there were before and I also recognize that doing these specific things and eating some of these specific foods are very important to some people and that's part of that's an important part of their practice but like I said it's very personal and it these things haven't remained static like we can see over thousands of years that that these have changed and I think that means that that there is room for us to change if that's something that that we choose to do.

DALAL: I see how this the value aspect of Judaism is also present in the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam the past months and over the past couple of weeks Muslims have been fasting and at the same time Christians are fasting and we are we already celebrated future and also you will be celebrating Passover and also Easter for the Christian community as well and these different celebrations and traditions in in the religions also they require certain observing and standing to certain values and at the same time what you mentioned about the values is of wondering and thinking and reflecting on life through the texts that we study in the different monotheistic religions, I see that as a sign that this is a way for people to remain guided or to remain consistent with what they practice and how those practices should reflect on their realities on all sentient beings in their surroundings, but tell me a little bit more about your Jewish celebrations, especially Pesach פֶּסַח, because it's going to be over the next few days and how do you also observe and celebrate Passover and especially that there is a lot of food involved in this process and from one aspect and the kind of community and how you connect with your community as well? 

SOPHIE: I think like, again, if I'm speaking about my own personal practice and how I observe and celebrate I think that's changed over time for me personally like I said growing up, I was raised in communities where we did a lot of things together as a community but as part of a family a lot of these celebrations were things where we would come together as a family and we would take part in them together so for Pesach פֶּסַח actually well Pesach פֶּסַח is a weeklong holiday but for the first and the second nights we have a seder which, seder means order and it is a there's a specific order in which the night runs and it's quite it's quite a long night but it was it's all of us we all come together and we all sort of partake in the rituals and we eat together and we discuss together and I think as a child I don't know that I really appreciated that sort of coming together because for me I was like "Oh it's a very long night and I would like to have dinner” and dinner is something that happens like quite late in that in that time. Now as an adult I do really value that sort of coming together and what it what it means to have those conversations and to practice and eat together something I think that has changed for me is that when I moved when we moved to Australia, I felt there is a lot of racism in the Jewish community that that's not the bulk of what I want to talk about here but because of that I felt very rejected by the community that I was in also increasingly as I learned more about what Zionism actually was and what it involved I became sort of uncomfortable with what that actually meant and because Judaism outside of Zionism was not something that was really modelled for me and was not something that's really talked about in a lot of these communities I sought to distance myself from all of this and so that meant that I wasn't I wasn't practicing and I wasn't observing and I wasn't like I kind of just withdrew from all of that because I didn't really know how to exist in that space anymore and I think that that shifted again now like it I do that I do still I do have practices now that I do I do have my own community that I'm with but that that's that in itself has been a process and something that I really value is the fact that we do come together and we do have community events and we do sort of try to reframe all of these traditions and these festivals and our understanding of those things in the way that we we just talked about where we think about current events and we try to understand it from within that framework and like what these things mean to us now but yeah, my personal practice of Judaism is no longer in the institutions in the synagogues but maintaining these traditions is still really important to me and doing so in a way that reflects my values is still really important to me and so like you mentioned a big part of the celebrations is that we often eat specific foods on specific holidays a lot of the time there's a a symbolic aspect to that and a lot of these foods also aren't always vegan so veganizing them is an important part of my practice so it's like me trying to bring together all of those things that are part of who I am and that there's like you said that consistency like living in a way that aligns with your values but not and not compromising on those things but like in a way that feels okay to you because I think sometimes people feel like they have to they have to give up something in order to Yeah, and I don't think that that that's necessarily the case so I feel good about that for example I think you mentioned on Hanukkah we will we eat a lot of fried food because a lot of the story of Hanukkah is around oil and the particular story yeah, is it talks about talks about oil so we eat a lot of fried foods and so that's like depending on where your family is from and what the traditions are that those what which particular fried foods you might eat will be very different I think there is a lot of focus on what the Ashkenazi traditions are and that can be kind of the dominant narrative I will say that even though obviously my grandfather was not from an Ashkenazi community I don't know much about how he practiced a lot of these holidays so that that is kind of a sad thing for me and it's something that I would like to that I I'm trying to learn more about now about sort of like how Jewish communities like what their traditional foods were in North Africa in in Tunisia but also in Morocco and Algeria and Libya and all of those places because they are they are like sometimes they are very specific to the place yeah, for same for all the holidays for Purim for rash sha therefore there's things that I that I that I had as a child that I really associate very strongly with those holidays and for me it's not just the holiday on the festivals and they're not just about the food but making the food is in some ways like part of the practice for me it's yea,h and like I said like we talked about before bringing the veganism and the and the Judaism together in a way means like specific foods that are associated with a community and sometimes that just means specific foods that I associate like with my family so like there's a particular cake that my grandma will make and so that's something that I like to be able to make vegan as well because it's it I have a lot of nostalgia for it and it makes me feel close to her as well you can maybe tell me about how Pesach פֶּסַח for instance how you view Pesach פֶּסַח from a liberation perspective that aligns with your advocacy for Palestine? 

SOPHIE: Pesach פֶּסַח is a story of liberation, it's a story of people who are being oppressed ultimately are liberated from their oppression and that that liberation is a very is a very joyful thing and part of the celebration of Pesech is remembering that oppression and then also remembering that liberation and a lot of the symbolic things that we do and a lot of the things that we talk about kind of relate to those things but I think if we're thinking about that sort of from a like interpreting it through the lens of everything that's happening today I think it's really important to think about those stories and try to understand them in the context of our everyday lives because that's how we learn and that's how we grow and that's how we try to make the world a better place and that that process of self-inquiry that we talked about I think that that's kind of key for me it's like that liberation is so important and it's so key to the story and that's what we're striving for but that liberation can't come at the expense of anybody else that like the idea that anyone could be liberated but in the process of their liberation that they could oppress another person and specifically in this case I'm talking about like people claiming that the existence of Israel is about the liberation or the freedom of Jewish people that liberation that freedom can't exist as long as those same people are oppressing Palestinians and so I think if it's specifically thinking of Pesach in the context the genocide that Israel is committing right now and Palestine and how all those things are connected I think that's a really important thing for me to remember when we observe this festival the pos the roles are not always static that people can only ever see Jewish people as being oppressed and never the oppressors we end up perpetuating the harms that we see throughout history like we need to be able to understand that anyone can do harm that anyone can be an oppressor and choosing to not be able to see that that's a part of being human that that that you have that capacity to do terrible things I think it kind of goes against like the moral obligation of the seder of celebrating the holiday we kind of haven't met those obligations if we choose to ignore that lesson that's how I understand Pesach פֶּסַח in this context I think I mentioned before that we have some symbolic foods that we eat and that that's the case for lots of holidays on Pesak there are there are many different symbolic foods that we eat and we have a we have a plate that we have at the seder and many of those foods go on the plate and we they sit in the middle of the table and we see them in the middle but we also talk about them and they're a part of the order of how the night goes as we eat some of those foods and we interact with some of those foods and we talk about them and two of the foods on the seder plate are like what most people would use are not things that are traditionally vegan so that there's a roasted egg and there's also a shank bone. The roasted egg represents the festival sacrifice and also for some people in sort of the cycle of life and rebirth and also the mourning of for the destruction of the temple so that all a lot of these symbols sort of have multiple meanings as well depending on the interpretation and the shank bone that represents the Passover sacrifice so the lamb whose blood was used to mark the doorposts so that they would be spared from the final plague of the death of the firstborn when the so the angel would pass over those houses and not firstborn Jewish children would not be harmed by that plague previously like we have information to say that those foods in particular were not always the things that were used for those symbolic foods so I think some in the time in the time of the Talmud there were other things i think someone the one of the sages mentions radish and rice as being potentially things that you could substitute instead I’ve also heard people say potato and beetroot for example for those for those two things and when I at home my own personal experience was we didn't like I said we didn't have meat other than fish in the house so when we for the shank-bone on the on the Seder plate. My mum would actually make one out of paper and tape because again it was very much a symbol and it's not something that the shank bone is not something that you eat usually anyway it's there are other symbolic foods that you do eat but this one is actually just something that is on the plate that we look at and talk about so in that case it wasn't actually a food it was more of an object that was being that symbol yeah so some interpretations are purely symbolic and not necessarily food based I think probably the only other thing that I wanted to mention was depending on the tradition that you grow up in and like what your family does like there are like when we the restrictions more restrictions on what we would eat during the time when we are celebrating pes like during that during that holiday which lasts for just over like a week or just over a week and mainly that has to do with not eating five grains so I think that's wheat, barley, oats, rye and spelt. I think those are the five grains that we don't eat that but there's some traditions there are other things that are grains or legumes and seeds as well that includes things like rice and corn and peas but there's a very long list of what's considered kitniyot קִטְנִיּוֹת which is the that's that it's not it's not they're not permissible but for some communities the tradition is that those things are not permissible and traditions where kit are permissible I think it's actually very easy to be vegan during pes because a lot of these things like tofu and legumes and grains and seeds are things that are normally a part of our diet so even if we are not eating those other grains are that it's pretty straightforward lentils are okay tofu is okay beans are okay traditions where kit are forbidden which is largely Ashkenazi but there are also some other communities that non Ashkenazi communities where they also don't permit or at least some kinds of those things obviously depends on a specific community and specific tradition it can be quite difficult to find vegan protein because a lot of the food for Pesach פֶּסַח is quite heavy, especially the desserts as well are quite heavy in egg, just to replace all of the grains that they're not using and since tofu is not permitted because soybeans are considered kitniyot קִטְנִיּוֹת that does limit the options. I know that in those communities like potato and quinoa and nuts and like other vegetables are okay, so kind of when you are thinking about trying to keep Kosher כשר for Pesach פֶּסַח but also for in a vegan way sometimes it can be a little bit more difficult just because of those specific restrictions but I also know that some Ashkenazi communities now do consider permissible but that that's relatively recent and I think it depends on the specific tradition within those communities the orthodox communities don't it's not permissible for them but for at least the many of the reformed and conservative Jewish communities Ashkenazi communities they do consider it permissible now but some people even though the rabbis have said yes you can have this because that's not their tradition that doesn't feel right to them so I think everyone has to kind of do what makes sense for them personally if they don't feel comfortable doing that but they still want to make it work that there are things they can do like quinoa even though it's a grain just because it's new it's relatively new, I mean it's not new, but to the people for whom who are making these decisions about what's permissible, what's not permissible I think for many of those people quinoa was previously considered kitniyot קִטְנִיּוֹת and then they changed their minds about it so again like there's lots of disagreement about what's okay and what's not okay I know a lot of people will say quinoa is okay if it's certified Kosher כשר -like I said it's a very personal choice I think everyone should consider what makes sense for them and their own situation from a religious and cultural perspective but also from the perspective of taking care of their own health and doing what aligns best with their values.

DALAL: As a Palestinian, and this is what I mentioned like at another time to you that around celebrations, around the Jewish holidays we experience oppression in how the roads are closed and there are even stricter checkpoints under the pretext that this is to secure the safety of the Jews, although like around us the settlements are already existing in a way that they're separating Palestinians from each other, and causing even more checkpoints and more land confiscation for the sake of that security claim but then with holidays specifically yeah you would see more road closures and more checkpoints and more restrictions in in the way that it aims at disrupting Palestinians in in their daily lives but at the same time ensuring that the celebrations are ongoing and I'm sure that that people the more maybe they try to get educated and they would maybe try to see things from a different perspective and consider that one people's celebration could be another people's agony and suffering.

SOPHIE: Thank you for sharing that perspective because I think that is important because that's the part that a lot of people either they don't see, or they don't they choose not to see and someone's celebration should not harm anyone else like that we know that.

DALAL: Yeah. 

SOPHIE: But obviously not everyone does so thank you for sharing that as well I really appreciate it.

DALAL: Thank you and thank you also for sharing your experience as well and I really hope that the community that you are connecting with now can be the community that you feel really that you fit in or belong in, I shouldn't say fit but really like it's the community that you really want or see yourself connecting with. 

[♪♪Music ♪♪ Mahmoud Shalabi – Flute/Ney ♪♪]

SOPHIE: When I'm trying to support businesses that are sourcing products, sourcing or sourcing raw materials more ethically, whether or not it it's to do with how I think about how we can support communities who are of people human beings who are oppressed across the world and that includes people in Palestine I think all of these things like I said before all of these things are connected when I think about those values I kind of feel like they all relate to each other I can't obviously can't claim to be perfect. I think everybody's trying their best in a very imperfect world in a world that is not set up for us to always make ethical choices or sometimes what is an ethical choice or what is a more ethical choice is obscured, because of the way in which how the raw materials are sourced or like how a product is made or whether or not people are paid fairly for their labour or whether or not things are made on stolen land and whether or not businesses are operating on stolen. And sometimes that information is not immediately obvious and so we have to we have to do the work to find that out, so I think for me all of this is like a process. I'm learning it's important for me to continue doing the self-reflection and inquiry to continue to consider all of these things and continue to learn more about it because obviously there are many things that I still don't know very much about, and there are many things that I have learned in this time, and I'm just trying to build continue to build on that and I think that in in some ways to me that feels like a very core part of how I see, how I understood Judaism to be in terms of that that constant state of learning- if that makes sense.

TIKTOKER#1: What the [ __ ] are anti-Zionist Jews going to do during Passover this year?

TIKTOKER#2: We're going to do the same thing we did last year, which is; read the story and talk about it and discuss what it means in modern times.

BARNABY RAINE: You know what I want? I'm a Jew, right, and I want to be able to go and pray at the Western Wall and I want to be able to pray there next to my Palestinian friends, Muslims and Christians, in peace and freedom. I don't want to pray under a gun that occupies and oppresses the indigenous people of Palestine.

TIKTOKER#2: People did not just become anti-Zionist Jews this year, people have been anti-Zionist Jews for years, and have been holding anti-Zionist seders and use the story of Exodus to talk about how we now as people can advocate for freedom and safety for Palestinian people and for all people in the world.

SAPIR SLUZKER AMRAN: If I may just to say it's something that it's important for me to say as an Israeli, as a Jew… 

JOURNALIST: Go ahead.

SAPIR SLUZKER AMRAN: We have this command in Judaism; you shall not stand over the blood of your neighbour, and for me I don't see the Palestinians and the Gazans as my neighbours. I see them as my own people and I say it with tears because what happened today my family is Iraqi, they are Iraqi Jews when I see grandmothers and grandfathers in Gaza begging for food, I see them! I see them in my own eyes, and this is not something that we…we condemn it and we have to stop it and this is our moral obligation to fight with our own people with our own blood in order to tell them what you're doing is wrong! 

BARNABY RAINE: I don't want to go to parties as people went to parties on October the 7th, 5 miles away from an open-air prison in which 2.2 million people are penned in, without access to sufficient food and water! I don't want that status quo!

SAPIR SLUZKER AMRAN: We have to stop this war! We cannot let this bloodshed continue!

DALAL: I do also like see the same journey as you're describing, I come from a Muslim community here in Palestine but it's yeah I think the very first time you go vegan I mean I don't know but for me I just turned vegan because I didn't find any reason to eat animals and it's throughout the last years I have been just unpacking and re questioning and inquiring and just scratching all the surfaces and behind what's deep inside like the community and the way like where the food comes from what's there on the table and trying to find that connection between the food and the land and the history and the traditions because as you're describing like for me also food is just beyond what you really eat it's there is a lot of history and traditions and practices there that are connected to it and at the same time it's again a way to guide you because as someone described before it's like the moral compass that that guide you through how you navigate your surroundings and how you connect with people from different backgrounds or communities it's fair and logical that if you're vegan and you're standing by and you believe in all lives are precious and should be preserved it makes the sense that you also fight for the same like values for Palestine and other communities as well that are facing genocide and different shapes and forms of occupation and I probably want to go and revisit what you touched quickly on Zionism and because I do understand how it can be very difficult at some times for you to maybe differentiate and maybe try to get people to understand that being a Jew and Judaism is totally different from Zionism because we easily like hear different accusations here and there of this being antisemitic or how would you maybe distinguish between the two or maybe explain what that means actually?

SOPHIE: It's tricky, because it depends on who I'm talking to as to how I would address it. I think there are definitely people who have misconceptions but they're open to dialogue and they're open to understanding and maybe shifting their perspective, and there are people who are arguing for the sake of arguing, for me when people say that that ‘anti-Zionism is antisemitism’ or whatever misconception that they have about what it means to support Palestine, especially for a Jewish person to support Palestine as well because I think a lot of people see those things as being incompatible which obviously is not the case, but that's obviously a big misconception that exists, for me I want to bring it back to them that they're they are conflating Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is very old. Zionism is very young. At the time when Zionism first became more prominent it wasn't necessarily very popular, it didn't have a lot of support it didn't really gain the kind of level of support that it did until after the Second World War and for a bunch of different reasons that it gained the support that it did and it kind of continued to have that support and from that stage it's been very convenient for Zionists, for everyone to see Judaism as Zionism because anytime anyone critic criticizes Zionism or anything that Zionists do, they can then clap back with oh but that's antisemitic and real antisemitism does exist and I think it's actually very disingenuous to point at critiques of Israel and say that that doing so like that any critique of Israel is inherently antisemitic like that is Israel is somehow above reproach like I think that also to me is antithetical to like all that those ideas of inquiry and reflection and challenging authority like why shouldn't we be able to criticize things that we can see that we know are wrong and obviously some people are choosing to ignore the truth about this so that they don't have to engage with that but why is this an exception why are people choosing not to do that inquiry and self-reflection about this particular thing and I think that that's a really important thing for people to reflect although most although many of the ones people who don't want to are not going to choose to do that whether or not they're Jewish people who feel very personally about this because they consider themselves to be Zionists or because they're non-Jewish people who have interests in supporting Israel whether or not those are political interests whether or not those are other interests I think and this for me this is one of the one of the misconceptions that's really tied to this conflation of Judaism and Zionism is this idea that people say oh well is Israel needs to exist Israel exists to protect Jews from antisemitism it's obvious to me that Israel needs antisemitism to justify its own existence and if that means manufacturing antisemitism or actively encouraging antisemitism that's that seems to be what they're happy to do and like I said antisemitism certainly exists this in other contexts but when Israel claims to act on behalf of all Jewish people while committing a genocide while oppressing Palestinians while doing all of the hateful things that that the state is doing that actively encourages hatred of Jewish people and I think there are some people who for they don't realize that and there are some people I think they cynically do realize that but they believe it's for a purpose and so that they're happy to keep stoking these fires but it's a very dangerous game they're playing and to claim they're doing it to protect anyone is just it's just clearly not true from my perspective. 

DALAL: And I understand how antisemitism is the term that was recently changed to even suit the settler colonial agenda and how they try to justify what they're doing in Palestine or the silencing of the pro-Palestine voices across the world and or seeing the present examples of what's happening in the states for instance or I mean even with the ones who you like from your experience would tend to show their interest in having an actual conversation or be actually open to the discussion like does it actually change a lot I mean from a vegan perspective I know throughout my personal experience that often times people simply want to attack you as a vegan because you probably trigger that insecurity of them not actually understanding their religious practices or what they actually claim to stand by, they will justify things by because Allahالله said this is permissible the book said that this is permissible so and it's halal so why do you say otherwise, but they take the conversation to different directions actually and it's very disorienting and it dismisses a lot of the actual components what we could potentially address from a logical point of view but yeah, when it's about anti-Zionism, and antisemitism, anti-colonialism things are very politically centred and yeah often times people simply would throw the word antisemitism in the conversation just to kill it but even in those conversations, how far can you actually change? how far can you bring to like the conversation of the awareness of the understanding or at least trying to build a sense of understanding to get people to understand the values and the justifications that you try to communicate? 

SOPHIE: I think that's a really good analogy there, because I think I can see that yeah, I think it's a similar way in which people feel like almost that they feel personally attacked that they feel like they have to engage with you because they feel very upset by what it is that you're doing like that that that what you're doing somehow harms them even though it's your own personal choice and obviously, like in both cases we both know like what it is that we care about and why we care about it but, sometimes when people are coming to us to question us about this, they want to undermine that and I think like when it comes to conversations about Zionism and anti-Zionism and when people talk about that I'm “betraying the Jewish community by supporting Palestine” or like ..it's tricky in my experience I think in some ways like you said it's similar to the conversations about veganism the conversations about what the cruelty that people inflict upon animals in order to get meat, in order to make other products that are that are made from animals, unfortunately there's only so far you can take the conversation, kind of like what you said, if somebody is open or maybe questioning already I think that's like that's a good entry point that's a that's a way you can start having the conversation for what I have noticed and I think that's also my own experience as well, is that people sometimes will hit a bit of a wall, even if they are open to some degree sometimes there is a bit of a wall, that they'll hit and everyone takes their own amount of time to come to terms with those things some people never do some people will stop there that that for them that's the limit and they can't they don't want to push past that further for whatever reason and for some people it's a very slow process where over time they might have one conversation and then they find that distressing and they have to think about it and they might shift a little bit from that conversation and then they'll learn more, and then they'll have another one and it's quite a long process and then there are other people who they might have one and I don't think this is as common obviously where they might have one conversation and it might not change their mind immediately but it might shift their perspective enough that they see things in a different light and I think for a lot of people especially when it comes to that conversation about what anti-Zionism is and what antisemitism is and for some people that means basically turning what they know upside down, and that doesn't mean that it isn't really good and important for them to do it but I think they need they do need some time to re understand to reinterpret all of those things that they thought that they knew and try to process that knowledge in a way that is productive like that it's that's good for them and I say good for them in the sense that they can then take that and do something with it because I think some people will then take that knowledge whether or not they feel constrained by the communities that they're in whether or not they feel constrained by the views of their family members or like that they have fears about how what that knowledge will or speaking out about that knowledge will do some I think some people kind of hold that inside and they don't they choose not whether or not they feel like it's a choice it is a it is on some level it's a choice that they make but they hold it inside and they don't have any way of acting on it and I think in in that way it also harms them because to have that knowledge and to have that shift in perspective but not be able to feel like you can do anything or not be able to have community with people or have people who understand where you're coming from i think that can be a very hard thing for people and it can cause them to kind of retreat in a way like maybe they know that these things are wrong but they fall back into them because they don't know of another way of being so I think for me it's like even if people can't hear what I'm saying right now if they know that other people who feel that way exist if one day when they get there, they know that I'm here and I'm ready to talk to them. 

[Music ♪♪ Naseem Alatrash plays cello♪♪]

RAYAN: The following poem is called “I cannot write a poem about Gaza”, which is written by a Samoan artist by the name of Tuseita Avia. This poem is read by Maia, who is a Scottish anti-Zionist Jewish artist [Music ♪♪ Naseem Alatrash - Cello♪♪]

MAIA מאיה-רפאלה: I cannot write a poem about Gaza because I cannot eat a whole desert. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because I cannot go to bed with the stiff little babies and the bodies of children, there is no room for the little lost limbs, the disembodied arms yanked off like parts in a doll hospital. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because if I speak up for the bodies of babies, for the pieces of children, for the women pulling out their own eyes, you will call me anti-Semitic and I must allow the blood of thousands to absolve me. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because my fury and my grief will rise up out of my chest like a missile plotted on a computer in Tel Aviv, it will track me, pinpoint me and in a perfect arc, it will whine down out of the surgical sky, enter the top of my head and implode me. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because Israel has a right to protect itself Israel has a right to protect itself Israel has a right to protect itself Israel has a right to protect itself Israel has a right to protect itself Israel has a right to protect itself Israel has a right to protect itself. And Gaza does not. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because behind every human shield is another human shield and another human shield and another human shield and another human shield and another human shield. And behind that human shield – is a human. I cannot write a poem because it’s complicated, so complicated, very, very complicated. So, I cannot write a poem about Gaza until I finish a PhD in Middle Eastern Politics and the Holocaust, until I am reborn a Jew and live under the iron dome myself. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because Tamar in Tel Aviv has got to get to the supermarket and the garden centre before the next siren. She’s putting plants in their bomb shelter and the kids’ favourite toys and treats, to make it less depressing. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because Fatima in Gaza City has 58 seconds to evacuate her house with her babies before the missile strikes and the only way out is the sea. She has seen pictures on TV of babies thrown into pools and swimming instinctively. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because there is an impenetrable iron dome that covers the entire state. It covers each mind and each heart, except for the few that line up and demand to be imprisoned. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because of my friends: Tamar, Shira, Yael, Michal, Noya, David, Yair in Tel Aviv and Nazareth and Beersheva. Because every time I point to the blood-soaked I upset them, offend them, anger them, betray them. Let them go. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because of my friend Izzeldin and his three exploded daughters and one exploded niece filleted across his living room. I cannot write a poem about Gaza because I can do the maths. If two thousand one hundred and sixty-eight dead Palestinians divided by sixty-nine dead Israelis equals. Find the true value of one Palestinian.

[Music ♪♪ Naseem Alatrash - Cello] 

SOPHIE: I think it's important for us to think about these things in terms of how we can make the world a better place and we want to stop terrible the violence and terrible things from being from being enacted some sometimes the many of these things are systemic and many of these things are outside of our individual power to change alone and I think for some people that can be very disheartening I think, there are many different kinds of action, I think community building is a really important kind of action that sometimes gets left behind, and part of community building is finding other people -who you don't have to agree with them on every single thing- but the core values are the things that you have these core values that that you can agree on and you're ultimately working towards a common goal, but you're also taking care of each other as part of trying to get to that common goal, and obviously I'm speaking from within the context specifically of my like my experience of like building community within Jewish communities. Specifically, Jewish people who reject Zionism which I think is a is a growing number of people but still I think the way that the world works means that many of us are separated from each other. I think it's important to reach out if you are seeking support if you want to talk to someone if you're struggling with this knowledge and you want to have a conversation I think it's important to have a conversation about it with somebody who understands where you're coming from. Like, how can we work together whether or not it's we work together to fund raise whether or not we work together to protest whether or not we work together to do something concrete and specific, but we also work together to be together, because I think there are especially like a lot of the western ideology like there's a lot of focus on individualism and taking care of yourself and that works for some people to some degree, but I think especially for people who feel cast out of communities who have grown up in communities and they've felt that connection to community very strongly or not, to feel like they don't have that anymore and I think don't you don't have to recreate we don't want to recreate the harms that doesn't mean that community itself can't be also be harmful in its own way like there are problems also, but we can try to take the things that we love and that sustain us and try to carry those and just because maybe we don't have family that that support or understand these values and these things that we're striving towards doesn't mean that we can't create our own family because for me also like family is not just blood it's also the people who love you and the people who care about the things that you care about, yeah.

DALAL: Totally, I mean the part about the community it's really tricky when even when we have community together and united, it can be united for the purposes that would be harmful to other communities that are already united fighting for moral just values but I think with community like as long as the community is morally driven and that compass is taking them to fight together for the rightful justice like for the rightful and just causes that they aim at making the change for the for the better of the world and for the better of other human beings looking ahead in in in what's coming or for the people who might feel they are capable of doing something or they're also sharing the same values like yourself and mine in in in how can activists actually build bridges between communities through advocacy and liberation and freedom because people exist in different spaces and what might work in one community doesn't necessarily work in another, but yeah. 

SOPHIE: I think it's really it really depends like I think building bridges comes at least from my perspective building bridges comes from sharing experiences with each other as well we can have core values that that are very similar we can be striving towards a common goal but if we're not sharing our experiences and we're not like, I think sharing those experiences part of that building that community like and also a cross community kind of building because I think we can create new communities by doing that if that makes sense the community does not have to be a single enclosed thing, like you said build bridges but like we can we can create new communities that encompass those communities by having these shared experiences and sometimes that that means like interfaith or intercultural conversations, like sharing our different or similar experiences with sort of different faiths and cultures, sometimes that means sharing our celebration of the festivals, because I think sometimes again these things can we can become quite separated, we're doing we're doing our own things and we're doing them separately and we don't people don't other people and that I guess that's why it's important for me to talk about, when we're talking about Pesach פֶּסַח, we're talking about other Jewish holidays like what they actually mean and what they're about because I think it's not like this this information is available if people want to look it up but there it's one it's a different thing to read about something on the internet than it is to experience it as well and also experience it through whatever interpretation is like there are many different ways to interpret those these holidays and to celebrate them and peoples have very specific traditions that come from very specific places and I think like the diversity of those experiences very beautiful like we learn so much from other people by sharing those experiences and I think that is one of the things that can build those stronger connections and make us see also like not just the differences but also the similarities in the things that we care about and the ways in which we do practice and celebrate but I think ultimately for me what it comes down to is having respect and recognition of each other as human beings and not just tools to achieve a purpose because I think often the goals that we are seeking the things that we're striving for are extremely important but sometimes we can we can fail to see each other as human beings even our own selves we stop acknowledging our own humanity because we are so focused on the goals and I think we are all we are all we are all human beings and we are all imperfect and we are all trying to be better and I think that that small thing is a big thing for me when it comes to when it comes to that, so yeah.

DALAL: Thank you so much for sharing your experience and this this is really a precious time that I shared with you and wishing you peaceful joyful celebrations and holidays ahead and yeah, I really hope this inspires people who share the same values and if they want to take that example and work with it in their communities then this is your time and just do it start on it, thank you so much again it was a pleasure! 

SOPHIE: Thank you! No, thank you for having me!

[♪♪Yasmeen Abushawish – chanting ♪♪] ♪♪يا طالعين To those of you ♪♪

عين للل الجبل who are climbing the mountain ♪♪ 

يا موللل الموقدين النار and those who will send signals by setting fire ♪♪

بين لللل يامان يامان I just hope for your safety ♪♪ 

My darlings, oh soul of mine! ♪♪ عين للل هنا يا روح 

ما بدي منكي لللكم خلعة ♪♪ I don’t want a new dress

و لا لالالا ♪♪ from you, 

لا بدي ملبوس ♪♪ nor gifts, 

بين للل ♪♪ I just hope for your safety ♪♪

♪♪ يامان يامان My darlings,

♪♪ عين للل الهنا يا روح oh soul of mine! ♪♪

♪♪ ما بدي منكي لللكم خلعة ♪♪ I don’t want a new belt, 

♪♪ ولا لالالا nor other gifts,

♪♪ لابدي زنار I just hope ♪♪

♪♪ بين للل for your safety ♪♪

♪♪ يامان يامان My darlings,

♪♪ عين للل الهنا يا روح oh soul of mine! ♪♪

♪♪إلا غزال To young people (METAPHOR – Gazelles)

♪♪ للللللذي جوين who are

♪♪ للللكم محبوس imprisoned 

♪♪ بين للل يامان يامان I just wish for your safety, 

♪♪ عين للل الهنا يا روح ♪♪ Oh my Darlings, Oh soul of mine. 

♪♪إلا غزال To the gazelles (young people jailed)

للللللذي جوين ♪♪ who are imprisoned

♪♪   I want to tell you that this situation will not last الللللكم  ما يدوم

♪♪ بين للل يامان يامان I want to tell you that

♪♪ بين للل يامان يامان I just wish for your safety, 

♪♪ عين للل الهنا يا روح ♪♪ Oh my Darlings, Oh soul of mine. 

♪♪يا طالعين To those of you ♪♪

عين للل الجبل who are climbing the mountain ♪♪ 

يا موللل الموقدين النار and those who will send signals by setting fire ♪♪

بين لللل يامان يامان I just hope for your safety ♪♪ 

My darlings, oh soul of mine! ♪♪ عين للل هنا يا روح ♪♪Music]

MARIAM TAMARI: Free Palestine