Vegans for Palestine Podcast - Episode 12 - White Veganism

White veganism is not just about white vegans. It is not just about skin colour. We have emphasised that point throughout this special episode, where Dr Leila joins Rayan. Want to know more? tune in!

The transcript for Episode 12 - White Veganism is edited for accessibility. Click here to view captioned version.
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RAYAN: Welcome back, Dr Leila! 

Dr LEILA: Thank you for having me! 

RAYAN: It's an absolute honour!

[Music] ♪♪Free, Free Palestine! ♪♪Free, Free PALESTINE! ♪♪Free, Free, FREE Palestine! ♪♪Free, FREE, free Palestine! ♪♪ ♪♪Free, Free Palestine! ♪♪Free, Free PALESTINE! ♪♪Free, Free, FREE Palestine! ♪♪Free, FREE, free Palestine! ♪♪ ♪♪Free, Free Palestine! ♪♪Free, Free PALESTINE! ♪♪Free, Free, FREE Palestine! ♪♪Free, FREE, free Palestine! ♪♪ ♪♪Free, Free Palestine! ♪♪Free, Free PALESTINE! ♪♪Free, Free, FREE Palestine! ♪♪Free, FREE, free Palestine! ♪♪ ♪♪Free, Free Palestine! ♪♪Free, Free PALESTINE! [Music]

DALAL: It’s Dalal and this is episode 12 of the Vegans for Palestine podcast. For a very long time, vegan movements have upheld whiteness and white supremacy in ways that marginalize vegans who are the global majority. White veganism is often dismissed or considered taboo in some vegan circles. Dr Leila joins Rayan to discuss how white veganism manifests as a form of oppression that enables neo-colonial Zionism, animal abuse, and capitalism in vegan spaces. They define whiteness, white privilege and how Zionism is proximity to whiteness, then they discuss the prevalence of white veganism and why we need to challenge it. This is part one of their discussion and part two will be recorded and released in the future. I hope you enjoy this one!

RAYAN: I think we'll begin by talking about whiteness or what I like to call the paradox of whiteness, the idea that whiteness is both dominant yet invisible how whiteness is the unquestioned norm within so many vegan movements one of my favourite professors, an Irish Jewish woman by the name of Alana Lentin, she was born on stolen Palestinian lands, she argues that ‘whiteness originates in context of racial domination so rather than focusing on skin colour, whiteness is actually a structure of power which connotes a relationship of domination between people who are designated as white and those designated as non-white, so whiteness is made invisible so it appears to be the standard, the norm against which everything and everyone else is judged, and people who are racialized as white rarely have to acknowledge the advantages that they have as a result of being white’. so that's what we mean by the paradox that whiteness is both dominant and invisible. so it means that in various contexts what is classified as white changes. so myself, being Palestinian, who has grown up in a settler colonial society far away from Palestine, what we now call Australia, what we see is that the term white has shifted and changed over time to the point where even Greek immigrants’ Italian immigrants at one stage were not identified as white whereas now, they are. Russian immigrants weren't now they are. the classic example is the Irish in early colonial periods were not classified as white whereas nowadays they are. having that access to whiteness means that they have access to privilege and so what I want to get at, Dr Leila, for our listeners, is that whiteness is not just about skin colour, a lot of people think that we're talking about skin colour, whiteness is not only about skin colour. 

Dr LEILA: Yes, and that is such a good point, I’m actually really glad that you started   with that. I once attended a talk by a French soccer player, and he was a black man speaking French. I don't understand French, so he was being translated interpreted. he was talking about racism in sport because I'm interested in sports nutrition and he said he know he's actually retired and he gives talks to children, and he always challenges these children by asking them   to compare their skin colour, their white skin colour to a white sheet of paper, and then he points out to them that none of them is actually white, like   the white that we see on a piece of paper, so it is usually really shades of I don't know beige? peach? maybe even orangey? there are shades of colours rather than white as we talk about it. I think that is so important because it makes the point that whiteness is not about the skin colour, and again it shows that race is a social construct.   white is not a skin colour, I mean just look at me I'm actually fair skinned ,and if you look at the people from Iran, Turkey, Palestine, and other countries we have so many people in those countries who are actually you could say fair skinned even white, some of them they have blonde hair, they have blue eyes, I mean, a very good example is Ahed Tamimi, I mean   if I didn't know she was Palestinian, I would say ‘oh she's a European’ and it is funny because my background is, my ancestors are from Azerbaijan and a lot of Azeris they can be blonde, I mean one of my cousins is actually blonde, when I look at her if I didn't know that she was my cousin she was an Iranian I would have thought she's a European. whiteness is not about the skin colour it's really a social category, it's about proximity to power access to privilege, and that is so important to understand that, it's really not about skin colour it's about who you are or what you represent and I think that is so important to understand because  we get all these white people say "Oh yes but I'm from working class." They don't understand their privilege and that would actually take us to racism or discrimination, because when we talk about discrimination we always focus on that part or that identity of ours which is discriminated against, for example I remember I was talking to a white Jewish woman and she was emphasizing that she has experienced racism because of her Jewishness, and she was blind to her whiteness, let's call it whiteness it's not really white skin and again you mentioned the Greek   people living in Australia, and I had recently discussion with one of them and she told me "Oh yes I know what racism is." And I was like "What how can you know what racism is, you're white as far as I'm concerned, you actually represent whiteness." So yes, whiteness is a social construct it is a category it really shows how close you are to power and privilege. 

RAYAN: And that's why it's really important that we should be able to call out white privilege and someone shouldn't be offended if we identify them as having white privilege, so it's not to say that   they aren't working class, they're not a woman, they haven't experienced any hardship at all, there are all kinds of privileges that exist in the world today and I have them being male, being Palestinian in a settler colonial society I live here with settler colonial privilege with great shame because it's parallel to being the Israeli in Palestine. living as an uninvited guest the amount of shame involved in being part of a settler colonial society is part of another story, so having white privilege doesn't make someone a bad person but when they deny it exists though is a very different story. in 1989 there was a woman a white woman by the name of Peggy Macintosh who wrote an article called the invisible knapsack, and she listed a whole bunch of privileges that she has and basic things of like she isn't followed around when she goes to the store, she can turn on the television and see people of her quote race represented, she can do well in any situation and not be called a credit to her race and that was to sort of encourage people to realize how normalized and invisible whiteness is and white privilege is. I liked what you said before about how people from the Middle East people, from parts of Europe, from Palestine, Iran, from   Lebanon, even North Africa we can be quote ‘racially ambiguous’ so even like when we look at our own families, in summer I turn extremely dark I’m very ‘of Middle Eastern appearance’, whereas a lot of my cousins who have red hair or have blonde hair, like where within one family, you will have siblings that look very different and do not fit the Eurocentric narratives and categorizations of race, and as a result do have privileges in some circumstances where they are deemed to be “white adjacent”. what we can definitely see is that whiteness is normalized, it is an unquestioned benchmark, and whiteness is part and parcel of several settler colonial societies, which means that Zionism itself is proximity to whiteness. I don't know if you've heard this Dr Leila, when Zionist trolls like to point out that Israel is ‘a multicultural society’ and apparently that absolves them of whiteness, have you heard that before? 

Dr LEILA: Yes, and it is interesting you say that because I actually live in a Zionist neighbourhood, but I know if some of them would say, "Oh look I would actually look like an Iranian." Some of them they do look like Iranians, but they don't see the whiteness in their ethnicity and in their attitude, and you mentioned white adjacent, I would like to introduce another term; white proximity, and white proximity is being close to people who have the white privilege, who have the whiteness, and we see that a lot again with people who are BIPOC, so even people who could be black they can have this white proximity, and they can enjoy some of those white privileges, and they can benefit from that white proximity, and yeah, I just wanted to mention that here but yes, you are right I have heard that Zionists is saying that they are not white, and I think as you were saying it really illustrates so well that whiteness is not a skin colour and it is invisible.

RAYAN: That's why when we look at Zionism, so in its conception, we see that it was supposed to be a white Jewish state. in terms of Israeli nationalist identity, because it's a very settler colonial society similar to others that are white led but also claim to be multicultural, we still see that identifying themselves as being multicultural doesn't absolve them of their proximity to whiteness. is that how you termed it? 

Dr LEILA: The white proximity is somebody who is actually like a skin colour is not really white, if you would look at them, if you meet them outside you would say "Oh they are BIPOC." But because of their position in life and that can be maybe they are married to a white person or they are really wealthy and they are in high positions and we see that with a lot of politicians who are actually BIPOC but they support Israel, they are Zionist so they have the white proximity and they enjoy  privileges that other BIPOC people don't. so I think that is a white proximity but if we I may go back to Zionism, we always say Zionism is a form of racism which is true. but there are some differences to Zionism and racism. racism is basically about the superiority of the white people or people with whiteness over other races and so it is oppression based on race and it can take different forms like we have Islamophobia, anti-blackness, or even the oppression of   indigenous people and based on race people are assigned value and power. Zionism is the superiority of Jewish people also Zionism is actually political ideology, so it adds all these layers to racism and just saying Zionism is a form of racism, I think it minimizes what Zionism is in reality. as you said it is actually because it is a political ideology it is a settler colonial project, and it was created with the only kind of intention to create a Jewish state so both Zionism and racism obviously create hierarchies and offer privileges to certain groups, and here with Zionism obviously, it gives those privileges to those people who are Jewish. 

RAYAN: Exactly, and I do notice that within a lot of anti-Zionist Jewish communities, so when I've spoken to BIPOC Jewish communities that are fiercely against Zionism, they experience whiteness in different ways in their communities because of what they call I've seen this term somewhere “Ashkanormativity”, so the idea that Ashkenazim, who are the pinnacle of whiteness dictate, what is Judaism how it is experienced in line with Zionism and so forth. a as Palestinians we are unfortunately trolled by not only Ashkenazi Zionists but also Mizrahi Zionists, who remind us that, when they're when we're pleading with them, please stop murdering us, please stop the genocide, please stop colonizing our lands often we're so used to hearing them say things like; "But my grandmother was from Yemen." "Oh but my grandfather was from Morocco." all of a sudden because we're all Arab or because we're all linguistically Arab, we're somehow responsible for the circumstances of their grandparent? By all means go to Morocco, go to Yemen go to Iraq fight for justice reclaim what you fled reclaim your Iraqi or your Yemen, or your North African identity whatever it may be, but at the expense of the dispossession of my people and myself - like come on. I wonder whether we can now talk about white veganism, or should we wait is there anything you want to say before we go on? 

Dr LEILA: Yes, I want to say something about when you talked about the Jewish people who are Arabs and I think it is really important   to mention that when we talk about oppression or Zionism and racism, how these hierarchies are created. these hierarchies are actually possible because they have dehumanized other people, and when we dehumanize another group of people, we also make violence against them kind of the norm:   exploitation, oppression, killing - it is justified. I think that is what those Arab Jewish people I don't even know how to call them Arab Jews? I don't know how they refer to themselves sorry, anyway that is what they miss, they missed that point that actually because the Palestinians have been dehumanized and so Palestinians are a different group than them so here they cannot just say ‘we are all Arabs’ – no, here the Palestinians are actually made into a different group of people who are so less than they have no value so you can do with them whatever you want to and it's okay nobody bats an eye. 

RAYAN: I often think that at the checkpoints and at the airports, in the courtrooms, when Mizrahi soldiers are doing their part in service to the settler colonial project one of the reasons why they hate us I reckon is because we remind them of their ancestry often when you look at police units, ICE or you look at army units within settler colonial societies, often BIPOC members who join such racist institutions almost have to prove their loyalty to whiteness, to Zionism, to the settler colonial project, and part of proving that loyalty is by showing that yes they can be violent. Even though Israel is a white-led multicultural settler colonial project, some of the most fiercest violence comes from African Jews, from North African Jews who are descendants of Jewish communities in Morocco Yemen and Iraq, I wonder if it's because we remind them that they have a lot in common with us and because they grow up hating us and they look like us even though  they are racially ambiguous the way we are, their grandparents spoke our language, their ancestral cuisine is similar to ours, and that's why proving loyalty to the colony can be like proving loyalty to whiteness. 

Dr LEILA: And they have to prove their worth. Remember, I think actually somewhere inside them let's say subconsciously, unconsciously, they actually recognize they are less than those other Israelis so in order to prove their worth, they have to be more violent, it's almost like ‘see I can actually be like you’, and I think that is so important and that that is so something really important a lot of white people don't get it and then they come and say ‘oh look this BIPOC  actually supports Israel’ or ‘this Muslim supports Israel’. they don't understand that sometimes they do that because they want that white proximity I was talking about they want actually to be, yeah, just proving their worth that's all I can say and in order to do that they have to be even more vocal than some Zionists because then they can say like kind of: ‘look I am actually really fighting for your rights so please accept me’.

NARRATOR:  This is how Israel erased the Arab Jewish identity.

ALON MIZRAHI: white supremacy is deeply embedded into Zionism. 

NARRATOR:  Alon Mizrahi is the son of a Palestinian Jewish father, and Moroccan Jewish mother.

ALON MIZRAHI: the humiliation that Arab Jews experienced in Zionism is something they never experienced in in their Arab countries, they never experienced white supremacy in Morocco or Iraq or Yemen, they only experienced it here. 

NARRATOR:  45% of Jews in Israel originate from the mostly Arabic-speaking countries in North Africa and the Middle East today, they’re called Mizrahi. many left those countries after a rise in hostility largely sparked by Zionism and Israel's creation but in Israel they faced hostility too. Zionism’s early leaders condemned them for being too Arab calling them uneducated masses and savage. 

ALON MIZRAHI: they treated brown Jews and Jews from Muslim origins from Arab countries as inferior. Arab Jews needed to unlearn their Arabic accents.

Dr LEILA: i would actually argue that white veganism   is not just about skin colour already when we use that term white veganism it incorporates all the other isms that we have been talking about precisely and I think that's the myth. 

RAYAN: That can be what listeners might misunderstand, that we are only going to talk about skin colour or skin tone as if that's the signifier of white veganism. BIPOC vegans who are Zionists who are supportive of or engaged in capitalistic enterprises are complicit in white veganism so it's less about white vegans themselves and more about a system of oppression, an unquestioned paradoxical invisible yet dominant benchmark. I'm wondering whether we should start by comparing our definitions of white veganism what I'll do, Dr Leila, is I'll present a definition a very long definition of white veganism which is in its first draft and I'm ready for it to be critiqued because I'm learning in this process, but this is part of the discussion. I've described white veganism as something that refers to a value system, a set of beliefs, or even a subculture, possibly a trend; that articulates veganism through a single issue lens, in a way that centres white supremacy, it centres the experiences of white people, white knowledges about cuisine, white perspectives on animal justice, and it positions intersectional causes as quote ‘dividing the vegan movement’. There's a lot more to it, so I don't know if you want to interrupt or if you want me to keep going. that was a lot that was a long sentence, wasn't it? 

Dr LEILA: It was, but I liked it. you actually touched on a lot of interesting points, so it overlaps with what I'm going to say. For me, white veganism is about promoting and adopting like kind of vegan values, while trying to uphold and perpetuate the values of whiteness. so when we talk about the values of whiteness what are we talking about? we are talking about Eurocentric values, Eurocentric norms and narratives so that is why  white veganism is very much tied to capitalism, colonialism and oppression of the racialized people oppression, of marginalized people, so it is about power and that is why I believe - I know vegans are going to hate me for saying that - I believe white veganism exploits animals for their own agenda. That is actually their biggest blind spot, and I also should probably add that a lot of these vegans, they may start by truly caring for animals, but down the line they have to choose between animals and their own white privilege, and they always choose their own privilege. 

RAYAN: You're spot on!  I think in terms of that working definition that I've got, I liked how you drew attention to power and privilege, and I want to know more we're going to revisit that Dr Leila, so sorry you can't, we can't move on from that, I want to know more about what you said before, you termed it better complicity in terms of the oppression of animals? Yes. we are going to revisit that later on. I noticed that in a lot of white vegan values and what I've experienced in terms of vegan spaces, and trying to get vegans to have conversations about the genocide happening, and the resistance and the racist backlash I've received, the message I'm getting is that a lot of white vegans see veganism as a single issue cause - it's all about the animals and so that's why we're definitely going to revisit what you said about the irony there it's all about the animals but they just perpetuate so much violence against animals, against non-human animals I'll say so white veganism it treats veganism through as though it's separate from other issues like racism, colonization, white heteronormative patriarchy, ableism and other forms of oppression. It positions vegan for the animals as the central tenant of veganism when I think it should be’ white vegan for the animals’, yeah marginalizes other causes like anti-racism, anti-colonialism, and social justice, because as I was doing a quick literature review on white veganism, I thought to myself ‘why on earth are they so bad at veganism’ - that's a polite way of putting it. why are they so terrible like why are they so condescending why is it that when I went vegan it was actually white vegans that deterred me from being vegan    many times in my life I actually wanted to go vegetarian or vegan, and it was white vegans that deterred me interestingly and it's because the white experience is one of privilege is that why they bring such a horrendous lens to veganism like I'm trying I'm hypothesizing here. Because they centre their experiences to justify veganism as being this single-issue phenomenon that in itself exhibits whiteness privilege as being invisible in the unquestioned norm? 

Dr LEILA: I actually say white vegans and let me just say something when we talk about white veganism again we are not talking about skin colours, that is so important to recognize because we have a lot of BIPOC vegans who practice white veganism and I could go on about that they're just following the dominant narrative of the vegan movement, because white veganism is actually based on oppression and exploitation so when we many of us and I mean like kind of grassroots activists or those of us who don't have connections to those vegans in high positions when we are being exploited by these vegan organizations who   practice white veganism and   when we actually talk about that then we are being called   oh you are being divisive you are actually harming animals/   I see a lot of vegans of colour who are deeply actually perpetuating white veganism and then we have these intersectional vegans and I hate actually the word intersectional vegans, because I think we are all intersectional beings we all have we have different identities whether we like it or not and these identities will intersect with each other and shape who we are and in different settings different identities will stand out and sometimes those identities can be actually to our advantage like   if I go somewhere and there is a group of Muslims I'm as a Muslim will have some advantage, so we are not even saying that all our identities are working against us. These people who call themselves anti-intersectional what they don't realize is that the intersection of their identities makes them privileged, makes them really close to the power and privilege that we keep talking about. when we talk about   who has the most power and privilege we are talking about white cis heterosexual married usually Christian and English speaking, and a lot of BIPOC who are close to these narratives who   follow these narratives and practice those narratives   it's also when you talk about intersectionality it's all like you have boxes to tick how many boxes do you tick? and some boxes have more value than other   boxes For example when we talk about. in terms of genocide if you're a BIPOC who has been silent on the genocide of Gaza that's quite a valuable box to take to white veganism. so you get a few points for that if you're a Muslim BIPOC staying silent on Gaza, a few more extra points for that so you see how it works. We always say white veganism it makes it sound like   we are just talking about white skin colour it is about who has the power who has the privilege and how do you act and react to those in power, so you can be a Muslim BIPOC but by actually kind of helping them to manipulate the narrative, by supporting them, they support you in return because they you actually help them to uphold white veganism. we see that a lot there are a lot of Muslim BIPOC vegans who get funding from all these organizations in fact they love those Muslim BIPOC vegans because they help them to come across as diverse inclusive   they actually help them to come across as apolitical because if they were they were ‘apolitical’, if they were Islamophobic would they really   fund those vegans so that is the narrative they want to sell us so I think that is really important for us to recognize. We see parallels   in the US-Israel politics   when we have black Americans, the ambassadors Linda Thomas Greenfield, and what was his name, Robert Wood?   when they were vetoing the UN resolutions for ceasefire we have black people doing the dirty work of whiteness, let's call it whiteness, let's actually we should stop calling it white people we should really refer to it as whiteness, I think it's really important to do that because whiteness is about power, who has the power.

Dr BENJAMIN: Black faces in high places are not going to save us just look at the black proponents of Cop City in Atlanta's leadership class black faces in high places are not going to save us just look at the black woman's hand ambassador at the UN voting against a ceasefire in Gaza. That is our blackness and our woman-ness are not in themselves trustworthy, if we allow ourselves to be conscripted into positions of power that maintain the oppressive status quo our blackness and woman-ness are not themselves trustworthy if we support the occupation of black neighbourhoods with so-called better trained police or remain silent about the genocide of oppressed peoples around the world funded by our tax dollars and here let me please shout out the incredible Spellelman students and AU siblings who have been organizing with Stop Cop City and Justice in Palestine among many other troublemakers in this room you all remind us that college is not a waiting room to enter the real world but that you can start transforming that world right here right now it goes without saying but let me just say it anyway for student activists speaking out courageously for Palestine and Congo and Haiti and to stop Cop City they should not be threatened with expulsion loss of scholarships.

Dr LEILA: And remember power is also about money, status, all of that, actually is important to uphold your power and power is intoxicating, and I think that is something that happens to a lot of vegans who practice white veganism. So in order to do that, in order to actually be able to uphold the Eurocentric values they have to oppress other   vegans and animals because they need to do that, and I think they just don't recognize that they don't recognize how they are using all animals. they say they are centring animals- if they were truly centring animals why are they just criticizing those vegans who are prop Palestine? and talk about Gaza? and not Zionist vegans who talk about Israel? Why? and a few years ago, when Ukraine was attacked why were they suddenly all political they were writing articles about it, but then again when it came to Gaza suddenly none of you are apolitical I mean do they really think that we are stupid we don't notice that? but then  when we see what is happening in the microcosmos because if you think about it veganism is a microcosmos a microcosmos of the bigger exploitative systems that we see out there. so we see everything these dominant capitalist colonial narratives being played out in the vegan movement, and they don't want to recognize that, and they don't recognize that if you want a vegan world that is that what they're claiming. if you really want to do,  to have a vegan world you cannot continue the way you have been promoting veganism, because like you said that, that   a few times you wanted to go vegan but witnessing white veganism was like kind of not attractive to you and believe me, I have heard a lot of people including my own sister say that. when she went vegan, she told me I'm going vegan not because of what the material you're reading and you are advocating, I was working for a vegan organization at the time she said despite that. and I think vegans need to recognize that they are not using animals for their own agenda because it is normal. it is it may not be normal but because we have all been brought up in this colonial mindset it is our default mode. our default mode is to crave power status, and that that's what they are doing with animals, now they are using animals they are   exploiting them for their own agenda but obviously animals we know are the perfect victims, so they can always hide behind those perfect victims say ‘look I'm actually fighting for those voiceless’, but they are not it's all about them. and I'm going to actually shut up here I want you to chime in and talk because there was there is something I saw recently a talk by a white vegan and, but I want to hear from you first before continuing.

RAYAN: No, I'm loving this I’m like, ‘we should have connected much earlier!”. Well honestly, Dr Leila!  we should have connected much earlier! Something you said earlier about how a lot of white vegan organizations like to use the word apolitical in terms of their refusal to condemn genocide, and I've seen these same organizations that will as an example,  support same-sex marriage initiatives, support women's rights organizations, speak up about Ukraine, but god forbid ask them to speak against the genocide in Gaza and all of a sudden we're delivered a message that's usually well scripted; “we are an apolitical organization that focuses on the animals”, so there is a lot of hypocrisy there that I think you and I have both witnessed in a lot of white centred western vegan organizations and so I always say be very not cautious be very critical of those who claim to be apolitical or neutral because even when you unpack what is neutrality like in New Zealand, Australia, and America, and Canada; different Zionist organ I'm sure it's the same in the UK and in Ireland, different Zionist organizations- when they articulate for neutral reporting, they're actually articulating for Zionist reporting and so be very cautious and suspicious, those of you listening; be very cautious and suspicious of the narratives of neutrality or being apolitical or even unbiased. neutrality is impossible to achieve, I tell my students this even when someone is interpreting statistics, there's this myth that quantitative research is completely neutral and unbiased all you're doing is you're still bringing your lens and your world view to it. before we move on and talk about like why white veganism needs to be addressed and how it marginalizes different people earlier on you said- this is the exciting part- and I'm going to stand with you Dr Leila, so remember if they come for you they'll come for me as well, and I'll stand by your side ready to support you because I believe that vegans we need to have dialogue and we need to be challenged. Yeah, being Palestinian I'm used to not being liked because the world witnesses, your people being genocided at this point in time - there's nothing that surprises me. what I want to ask is about what you said earlier on about how white veganism, perhaps ironically or paradoxically, expresses so much violence and harm against non-human animals. can you elaborate on that? that's such an important thing that we need to explore. 

Dr LEILA: Sure, I actually wanted to say something about being neutral because I'm a plant-based nutrition and there are obviously I follow a lot of plant-based nutritionists who are vegan and they always say they are vegans for they are vegan for animals so they always claim actually to be ethical vegans although they are talking about plant-based diets, and I remember there is this BIPOC nutritionist who talked about   nutritionist, vegan nutritionist being attacked by being biased because they are vegan, and he said   there is no neutrality even when it comes to science we all have our biases.   now meat eaters have their own biases they want actually to justify why we should be eating meat it is healthier so they cherry-pick   those studies and vegans might do the same with the studies that support a plant-based diet, so neutrality is a myth, but that is something that the west has been exploiting really and   by saying we are neutral it's almost like we are harmless, and also let's remember when you say you are neutral you are trying to say to come across as peaceful. there is no peace in being neutral. Firstly, it doesn't exist, and I always say if you're neutral, you're by default supporting the dominant narrative. so if you're neutral and you live in the west, you're supporting the dominant narrative, and the dominant narrative is what your governments are trying to   spread. so propaganda. Anyway, so going back to vegans exploiting animals   when you crave power when it is about a certain agenda let's not even call it power, when you have a very fixed agenda that is how things should be done then you sacrifice things along the way. and a lot of these vegans who talk about   being for animals they want a world   that is what they say that's what they claim at least they want a world where animals are not being exploited, and they have a very fixed idea of how that is done, and obviously their idea is the ‘best’ idea, the best approach to   making this world a vegan world and they don't question it they don't recognize, they don't actually reflect on what they are doing and the harm that they are actually perpetuating, and I think that is the point they don't recognize that just because you say I care for animals doesn't mean that your actions are also reflecting that, and I see that a lot and the white veganism is perpetuating the colonial narratives. I’m like kind of - why can't you see that we have all these white vegan organizations or let's call these vegan organizations that practice white veganism. they go and build all these branches around the world and they don't recognize that by doing that you're taking what has maybe worked, it hasn't really but what you think is the best approach, you are transporting it taking it to other countries and saying that is how you should be doing it, and then you have all these  events in these other countries and this time I'm talking about the skin colour white-  white vegans going to talk about how they should promote animal welfare in India, for example, how they should change to plant-based eating in, in China. I mean how dare you.  I mean the arrogance and the ignorance to assume that they know best and the problem is they have the money it's really about money and the money and power, they go hand in hand, that's why capitalism and colonialism go hand in hand and that's why they need racism and exploitation oppression because one way of actually getting your hand on money is to by exploiting others so I think   there's so many different layers   on how we could actually approach this topic and explain it in more details. but I mentioned already a talk that I watched recently on YouTube, and I always have an opinion about things my sister says, ‘you're full of opinions’, but sometimes I'm speechless, I’m like ‘wow how is this even possible!’. so I watched this talk which was called ‘the number one threat to vegan unity; by a guy who who's called David Rams I don't I didn't know him before this talk, I don't even know how I got how I found this talk, I don't know if you know him? 

RAYAN: Yes, I've got a few things to say about that talk, I know the talk! Unfortunately, I used to follow him and then I watched that talk and then I unfollowed him on YouTube. David, please do better! Come on! That was a huge letdown! but please continue. 

Dr LEILA: So yes, as I said it was my first encounter with this guy I don't know anything about him, so I just thought okay the title sounds good let me have a listen and see what he's saying. now we have this whitewing guy who is complaining that during BLM people asked him to speak up, and because he refused to do that he actually lost collaborations so ‘poor him’ that he lost some collaboration opportunities because he didn't want to talk about BLM so and then he talks about all the good he did in India, and how he was upset that people called him a colonizer. Again, he couldn't really recognize and connect the thoughts.   a white guy going to India and trying to improve the animal welfare that is kind of the definition of what a colonizer does, and then he also and that was the part where I felt like kind of, oh my god, why is nobody's in the audience saying anything. he says he learned Hindi not from humans not from people but by talking to a car and I was like wow. that comment alone is so dehumanizing.   you are actually erasing the people who speak that language and you turn Hindi into a joke, and you're actually playing into all these stereotypes that people have about India and sacred cows. and it just honestly that sentence alone. and he actually also added a video of him   approaching this co and talking to him and I just thought wow, and he really believes that by showing us this video by behaving like that by having that mindset, he actually created this talk after he had left India, but that is the mindset that he had during  his time in India so that is the mindset, and we keep forgetting when you have a certain mindset you act up on it the mindset is not just the funny I don't know nice thoughts that you have you actually act upon those thoughts and then it goes on. he plays the Zionist play book,   he's the victim,   he says oh he's the one who got excluded he's the one who was suffering because   he's a straight white man poor him and then   and I was like kind of a major vegan animal rights conference had given him a platform to say all of that it is just unbelievable but I think that is such a good example of white what white veganism is and this guy just happened to be white he could have been a brown and black vegan saying the same things, and that would have still been white veganism and that is what we see a lot I see that a lot black and brown vegans talking like that acting like that. 

RAYAN: And I reckon, David will probably respond to you and point out that he has a black or brown vegan friend in reaction as if that absolves someone of racist complicity. up until that point I was following David, as well as other vegan social influences. I saw that speech. I went unfollow. the gaslighting process is so horrendous, positioning any criticism of vegan movements as quote ‘dividing the movement’ – no, our anti-racism is not dividing the movement, but rather the movement's racism, the movement's sexism, the movement's bigotry, the movement's neocolonialism - is what is dividing the movement, that's where the focus should be. rant about “oh but vegans need to be united because pro-Palestinian vegans were protesting an event in Melbourne”, he defines racism in his talk as being “well, so what if someone says a few harmful jokes”, rather than as racism being structural within vegan movements.

Dr LEILA:  And also if you have never experienced racism you don't know what those harmful jokes actually do. you will never understand it and I really want to go back to the fact that he just happened to be white. I have seen brown and black vegans talk like that, and act like that and you actually mentioned something else which I really want to highlight the gatekeeping - one way actually white veganism has become the norm in our movement is through gaslighting, silencing, and punishment. the minute you speak up about your funding gets cut off. if you dare to point out racism by a vegan organization you are isolated. you talk about being bullied and exploited, you are blacklisted, and you don't get any jobs in the movement. so they keep giving these jobs these positions especially those jobs that come with power, they give it only to those vegans they approve of, those vegans who play by their books. I always see that on social media play out as well like kind of those posts that are really shared, and you mention influencers it is almost like kind of by design whose posts get shared a lot whose posts get a lot of engagement.   I'm a nutritionist and I have experience how sometimes some of my posts they don't get any engagement they are not shared but another vegan who follows that white veganism who actually practices white veganism how I would call it post the same content, and it goes viral. so it's not the content which is at fault here it is about like kind of who is being promoted, who is being platformed, who is being given a voice, and that is what gatekeeping is.

RAYAN: Dr Leila I think we've just begun our conversation about white veganism I think you need to come back again in the future what do you think? 

Dr LEILA: Yes, as I said there are so many layers so many examples and yeah, I would love to come back, and we talk more about it how white veganism is actually manifested in our movement and how it is harming our movement

RAYAN: Thank you so much for joining us I look forward to seeing you again! 

Dr LEILA: Thank you!

[LOWKEY - 'Long Live Palestine Part III' featuring Mai Khalil on vocals and Valeria Kurbatova on harp] ♪♪This is for Palestine, Al-Quds, the capital Jerusalem Unarmed people marching to the wall and they're shooting 'em Suppression is a question, resistance is the answer Long live Palestine, long live Gaza Palestine, Al-Quds, the capital Jerusalem Unarmed people marching to the wall and they're shooting 'em ♪♪ Suppression is a question, resistance is the answer Long live Palestine, long live Gaza. While we listen to tunes, made by ignorant fools, Israel blocked the UN from delivering food, ♪♪They'll bring in the troops and you won't even glimpse at the news, They make money of the products that we are quick to consume, It's not simply a question of differing views, Forget emotions, this is fact, what I spit is the truth, ♪♪Makes no difference if you're a Christian or if you're a Jew, They are just people living in different conditions to you, They still die when you bomb their schools, mosques and hospitals, It is not because of rockets, please god can you stop it all, I'm not related to the strangers on the TV, But I relate because those faces could have been me, Words can never ever explain the raw tragedy, It's not a war they're just murdering more rapidly, We are automatically supporting pure savagery, Imagine how you'd feel if this was your family, Free my people, long live Palestine, ♪♪We will never let you go Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, ♪♪ Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, ♪♪Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, If Ibrahim Abu Thuraya could resist without a wheelchair 10 year challenge, tell Regev we are still here And tell that killer Netanyahu he should feel fear The old live through us and guarantee the children will care Criminal, not invincible and  ♪♪  it Samidoon, samidoon, still sitting in there stoic May not feel us with you when you listen to our poems You inspire humanity, ♪♪your resistance is heroic Regardless of talk, it is time we answer the call Through your strength of spirit, you provide example for all How to live, how to love when attacked from the clouds above  ♪♪Loud and clear, the songs you sung can't be drowned by the sound of guns Or just watch your tragic times through a satellite dish The least that we can give you is an anthem like this They panicked, tried to analyse and sanitise this But we love you more than ever, ♪♪ still Palestine lives. ♪♪Free my people, long live Palestine, ♪♪We will never let you go Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine ♪♪

TIKTOKER: It's Free Palestine, or I can’t be your friend. Do with that what you will.