Vegans for Palestine Podcast - Episode 19 - Animal Rights are Political

Dalal has an interesting conversation with Georges that turns deeply personal and political, tracing how witnessing violence and injustice from the genocide in Gaza to the everyday cruelty of industrial farming transformed one activist’s understanding of ethics and liberation. Georges reflects on the interconnectedness of human rights, animal rights and environmental justice, arguing that the struggle for freedom must include all beings. Through vivid stories of activism, from running a vegan restaurant to campaigning in Lebanese politics, they show both the hope and the heartbreak of trying to change entrenched systems of power. The episode also delves into trauma, recalling the experience of living through war and finding solidarity in global networks like Vegans for Palestine. Enjoy this one!

This episode is captioned for Deaf and Hard of Hearing people. Available here. 

Further reading:

• Veganism: Why we should see it as a political movement rather than a dietary choice – The Conversation
  
  
• The four Ns of meat justification – The Psychologist (BPS)
  
  
• Timeline: Israel’s attacks on hospitals throughout its war on Gaza – Al Jazeera
  
  
• What do we know about the strike on the hospital in Gaza? – Al Jazeera

This episode features the music of Reem Kelani, who is a Palestinian singer, musicologist and cultural activist known for preserving and reinterpreting traditional Palestinian music. Born in Manchester and raised in Kuwait, she blends Arabic folk traditions with jazz and contemporary sounds. Her work celebrates Palestinian identity, resistance, and women’s voices through powerful performances and meticulous musical research. Check out Reem's music here https://www.reemkelani.com 

The Vegans for Palestine Podcast team thanks Georges for joining us for this special episode. We cannot wait until Palestine is free and you can drive from Lebanon to visit us! 

Transcript

[MUSIC]

RAYAN: It’s Rayan, and this is episode 19 of the Vegans for Palestine Podcast. In this episode, Dalal talks to Georges, one of the founding members of the VFP initiative. Dalal and Georges talk about activism and advocacy for the animals. Animal rights are inherently political, and vegans should seek representation in parliament to advocate for this cause. Georges highlights the legal and political landscape in Lebanon, showing how the vegan movement can align with the core ethical values to advance animal justice and improve animal welfare. From street protests to radio appearances to coordinated advocacy alongside political vegan activists, Georges encourages people to become changemakers themselves. Veganism is political, and effective advocacy requires laws that protect activists’ efforts and, most importantly, the animals too. Indeed, the vision is clear: expand human rights, pursue animal liberation, and preserve nature, thus collectively increasing the value and vitality of our planet Earth. Enjoy this one. As a matter of fact — I know you will!

GEORGES: Before October 7th, we were seeing things that were absolutely insane, but the world was silent about them. And this made you think: what kind of a place are we living in for things like these to happen with no consequences, with no, at least, people screaming against it? But when we realized that many people around the world simply did not know what was going on, that was why people weren't standing up that ferociously against it. Back then, it felt the value of this planet was very low — like it's, it's not that much of a nice place. But then, when we started seeing more and more people standing for justice, seeing people caring about it, it actually increased the value of this planet. And I think this is very important. And it does not only stand for humans; it also stands for animals. Unfortunately, in the animal issue, we still feel that the value of this planet can, can be increased by people showing more and more compassion for these voiceless animals. Starting with the dogs and the cats on the streets. There are some countries where it's beginning to become decent for dogs and cats and the pets — let's say the required need, or the minimum need, at least, the consciousness of the people: they all believe that hurting a dog or hurting a cat is bad. Now, how much are they able to apply this is a different subject, but at least the common perception or the common understanding of cruelty against animals is: it's bad. However, it's still not that all around the world. Like I live in a country where still hurting a dog or a cat is not something that bad, and not seeing their souls — let's say, putting them in a closed space their whole lives, barely them seeing the sun — is considered, it's fine. They're just dogs and cats. However, it's much, much, much better than what's happening to farmed animals. Farmed animals is like, you know how they say you can only see 15% of the iceberg: the farmed animals are still in the most unseen parts of the iceberg. Or let's say, for the people who have seen the movie The Platform — I don't know how many people have seen it — but there is like stories. So basically, the animals' suffering are still in the lowest, lowest parts of the platform. And this is something. It's not only words. It's, it's a reality. As we're speaking, there is so many animals being killed — all, all sorts of animals, whether in the sea, and they feel, and they're sad, they're suffering, and nobody's seeing it. And this alone is really a thought that requires a lot of contemplation for somebody to actually understand it. You know, except for the vegans who have thought about this for a long time. So all we try to do, as you mentioned, is increase human rights, try to reach animal liberation, and, of course, nature preservation. These are the three points we focus on, and the whole point of us focusing on this is to increase the value of this planet. It is us who can increase and decrease the value of this planet.

DALAL: Tell me more. What does the Lebanese law say about the animals' rights in Lebanon?

GEORGES: I believe that laws are what vegans are trying to do. Like, if we want to reach the last level of our efforts of our work, what would it be? It would be for this to become illegal. Once this become illegal, it would only be a matter of implementing the law, but then it would become as a status quo that hurting animals — all sorts of animals — is something wrong. The way I reached this belief, let's say, or this conviction, it wasn't easy. Like, first I started with street activism; we used to go on the streets and talk to people. And then afterwards I said, okay, but what if these people want to eat? Like, what would they eat? So I opened the restaurant, then, trying to give cheap food, good fast but tasty and fulfilling, just to tell the people, look, you can eat whatever you want without creating suffering. But then, after a while — and you know I went on a lot of conferences and we did a lot of appearances on TV — but then I realized some people will just not care. You know, like they, they need maybe 2,000 years of evolution in order for them to begin to grasp the idea why we should do this. And it was a shock. Some people directly understood. Like from one video, you would show it to a person, they would start crying and they would understand, okay, and they understood what they need to do. But there are some people who this, you show them the same video and they don't flinch. For them, maybe their parents normalized this, or maybe their grandfather was a butcher and saying that their grandparents don't know what they're doing — it's just like really ingrained in them, really rooted in them to the point where it will require many, many generations in order for them to change.

DALAL: A lot of these people actually come from that background, or they come from the understanding that the animals are there for them, that universe is created for the human survival and the animal for them regardless what animal that is. I mean, definitely people classify animals in a certain way because some animals appeal to them as pets that they keep at home; others they slaughter and eat; others they use in the field or as means of transportation, or any other sort of labour. And it's really hard for some people to understand this idea that a human being is sitting in an interview on TV like you do and you are telling people that this is something that needs to stop — that abusing animals, eating animals, killing animals and all shapes and forms of abuse and violations — that is something that should be challenged and changed in the society. And people are triggered easily. They really pick up on that argument and they just take it to attack you and they really don't listen to the entire conversation. People like you and other vegans, particularly the ones who are taking the veganism from the perspective of the animal rights and advocacy for the animal protection and animal welfare. How has that been for you? Uh, tell me more about that from your previous experiences. Obviously you've, you've had some really interesting stories, um, recently.

GEORGES: Yeah. So, the first thing that came to my mind as you were speaking is when I was one time on TV and there were, there were like this calls. They can have calls and one woman from Egypt I remember — she just was like, “If you come to Egypt we will chop you up.” And I'm like, what? You know, simply because I'm defending animals the first thing that came to her mind is if I come to Egypt they want to chop me, make me in pieces.

DALAL: I remember that call. I think, wait, wasn't it that there was a misunderstanding at some point in that interview?

GEORGES: No. So actually what happened is the person that called after — I was still shook from what she told me — and then another person called and he said something and I misunderstood it, but I was still like, I was still feeling threatened. So I was like, are you threatening me? And that — that was the misunderstanding then. But with her, with the Egyptian lady, I was just like shocked. I didn't know what to say, you know. It was just like, give me an argument, tell me why. And I think it comes from the idea that she linked me to a sheep. You know, she made an association between me and a sheep. And a sheep is something that they chop. So for her, some people's minds — I believe are, a big percentage — I think of, of the minds are simple; they analyse things in a very instinctive way. And this is, I think, what enables, let's say, politicians and people with power and intelligence — I mean, not all politicians are intelligent — but to manipulate the crowd because the crowd thinks in a very basic way. Okay, going back to the idea of laws: we cannot always — because there are some people who will require ages and ages to change — we cannot always convince people. This is what I realize. We cannot always convince people. We cannot expect to spread veganism by convincing every person that hurting an animal is wrong. What if some people, like, abusing other people, or they like abusing children, let's say — do we have to explain to them that abusing children is bad and wait for them to stop? Or there should be laws that whether they accept this or not, these laws should take place? You know, and this is where the idea of laws kicks in: that we cannot convince everybody that hurting animals is wrong, but we know we are 100 billion% sure that hurting animals is wrong and the laws should be in tune. They should be synchronized with the concept of justice. This is what laws are. They are something that should be synchronized with justice. And we know that animals live freely just like we do, especially that we do not need to kill them. We do not need to eat them. That was thousands of years ago during survival stage. I'm sure the first person that decided to kill an animal and eat them was not doing it, like he was, they were really hungry. You know, for sure they were starving. Nobody would think about killing an animal especially with the human consciousness unless it was a survival mode. Now we're not in survival mode anymore. If we were in survival mode then it would be permissible, I think. If your child is dying and you have nothing to feed them and you see a cow it would still be a crime, I think, but a necessary evil and we would all do it. However, today we do not need to do this. So we know for a fact, a billion% sure, that killing a little child and a little infant like a baby cow or a chicken is a sin in all religion. It should be a sin in all religion and for sure it should be something that's against the law. That's because it's unfair. It's, it has injustice in it. So we cannot wait for the whole world to see that in order to make justice happen. And this is where the importance of laws come in.

DALAL: Firstly, the idea that people have been so accustomed to the idea that the animal is there for their own survival and God created this entire universe for the humans specifically. And people really have been indoctrinated for ages to simply view animals as one way or another: either something to eat, the flesh that they serve on the table; the animals they use as a carrier, a method, a tool for transportation, for using in the field, using in, in other businesses and, um, in different ways. And, but eventually to maintain that survival and to break that cycle, to break that idea in their heads that this is not the right thing. Uh, the idea of how abuse and violations against animals are so normalized now that when somebody comes with that law to say that these people who abuse these dogs — they killed this dog for no reason or attacked animals for no reason — they should be put in jail. And we have to have laws that protect animals and also protect the people who are fighting for the animals as well. That is something — it's a foreign concept to a lot of people. So to educate people and really challenge those ideas and beliefs, if we may call them, it takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of time and dedication and definitely to have the law on your side and to have people as well working together to make that happen. Even when we have laws, sometimes that is not enough, and the law doesn't even do the work because the people who are working behind the law are not maybe doing the job or the people who are advocating, they don't receive the support or the protection or the opportunities that they need to make that happen. And we, we see different videos sometimes circulating on social media of people abusing animals and they just do it with pride. They think that this is the right thing to do and that's rightful for them. That's something no one is going to tell them to stop doing or no one is going to even stop them, actually.

GEORGES: About the thing where people get provoked, let's say, when you tell them that you're vegan — or I think the whole, I don't think people don't know that something bad is happening to animals. I think they know, but it's really in the background. It's really down in the deepest places of their subconscious because when we were children, nobody ever came to us and they asked us, ‘Look, this is what we do to a chicken. We slit their throat, we remove their feathers, and we put them in an oven and you eat them afterwards.’ I think if we were told that as children, we would have a more conscious realization of what happens to animals. However, the truth is when we were children, they just gave us this food to eat and we started eating it without really knowing what this food is or where it comes from. It just tasted good and it became like associated with cool things that we do — like going to McDonald's, let's say, where you play some games and like on Sundays, nice time with the family. So, yeah. So it's associated with things that we used to do as children like going to McDonald's and all this. We were never really told what's really on our plate and then we grow older and it's just a habit and then we slightly realize with time what actually happens in the slaughterhouses. We might see a video. However, what solidifies this ability to keep it in the subconscious is the agreement within society. Okay, everybody agrees on it. You know, it's okay. Everybody does it. We don't need to think about it because nobody ever said anything. You know, it's just a common understanding. This is what we do. These animal souls don't matter. We think they might suffer, but let's not focus on that. Everybody's doing it. I'm not going to go to prison if I do it. I'm not going to be called an animal abuser because everybody's doing it. You know, I'm safe. I'm safe if I keep doing this and everybody's turning a blind eye and I turn a blind eye. Like you feel you are, you get lost in the crowd. Nobody can pinpoint at you and say, no, you're doing something bad. You know, you get dissolved in the crowd. And the crowd is very essential to keep this belief or to keep this thing deep in our subconscious and not have a need to put light on it.

What also enforces that this is there's something called a mirror neuron. You know when we see a human in front of us suffering we directly, we have some sort of a mechanism inside our body that mirrors our — it kind of puts ourselves in their shoes. And the more the individual looks like us the more it's easier for this neuron to work. This is why even with the people who love animals, some people stop eating goats; they stop eating cows; they stop eating chicken, 'cause maybe they look a little bit more like their dogs who they have a connection with or even more like ourselves. But they continue to eat fish because fish are very different than humans. They don't have like legs. They don't have arms. They don't like, I don't know. They look very different. The more an individual looks like us, the easier it is for our mirror neuron to activate. The more that that individual looks differently, the harder it is.

DALAL: The way people label animals and the parts of the animals that they consume. And we see it in the markets that this is pork, and this is steak, for instance. And consumers basically separate the product from the living animal it came from. And that's why some people wouldn't really understand why you, you can't really eat the fish because the fish is an animal. They would make that moral choice not to eat their pet, but they would eat other animals because there's also this denial somewhere that they really reduce the moral concern for food, um, and how animals are basically their food and that they deny that these animals can feel the pain or they even have any feelings or they suffer. But then there is a study in 2015 that really identified what is called the Four Ns and basically it's, u, the natural — that people what they perceive of animals is that natural is eating meat is what our ancestors did and that's what you pretty much touched on because of that. The normal is it is socially accepted tradition and that's why people have been normalizing in that or they have been simply accepting these long traditions, quote unquote, because eating animals and serving animals it's the right thing. It's what our ancestors did. And the necessary is the humans require meat for protein and nutrients. And don't get me started on that because — only when people hear that you're vegan, suddenly everybody cares about your protein intake, and they don't even think about their own protein intake or even their health to begin with. And nice is because it tastes good. And that's a whole other conversation that we, we, we won't even stop talking about because you’re eating dead bodies and it's the spices. It's the way you just cook it basically that gives it the taste.

GEORGES: There is also the concept of selfishness and pleasure and these things. So when somebody's getting pleasure out of something, you know that their selfishness is satisfied. You know, they eat this corpse, and it fires like cholesterol into their brains and then somebody comes to them and tells them you’re doing something bad. They want to defend this pleasure with whatever means they have to defend this. “Okay, you're telling me bad things are happening. I get it for this, but I'm having, I'm enjoying it.” And how to approach this is very, something very, very sensitive when you're trying to tell people. I think one of the most important points is also something you mentioned: to make them understand that they don't really need to give up this taste because it's really all about spices. And I was, by the way, I was one of those meat eaters before I turned vegan who couldn't see the corpse — like I would not be able to look even at when my mother used to prepare a chicken, I couldn't even look at the chicken because it did remind me that there's something other than the taste I'm getting in my mouth that's happening, you know? It's more than just a sandwich because you would see the other parts that maybe you wouldn't see — the head, the eyes, etc.

Coming to somebody and telling them this thing that gives you pleasure. Um, I think the first thing one should do is first give them an alternative: give them vegan chicken in a way that they would understand that they would be getting relatively the same thing but without cruelty, without all these things. And even with that, even if you give them, they will always try to defend their habits. You know, changing habits is not something easy. You know, like for example I think you, you know about Hayek Hospital in Lebanon that turned vegan or at least the food they're giving to the patients became completely vegan. So before, before they always to tell us “veganism is too expensive.” “We cannot afford it.” “This is why we eat meat.” They want to come up with excuses, to not change the habits that they are very used to for the past many years and that their parents are used to and their grandparents are used to. So yeah, so before they used to say veganism is very expensive so we cannot turn vegan. Then when the Hayek Hospital turned vegan, they started telling him, "Oh, you turned vegan because you want to save money." If veganism is more expensive, how are they saving money? They should be paying more. So basically, they would use any argument in any way just to defend this habit they have, just to defend this selfishness they have. You know, religions now to to say something that even non-religious people they have this strong selfishness and this need to be above others. You know, like this need to be superior to other beings: it gives them value, it gives them, it makes them feel special, it makes them feel superior. You know, it's not only religions, but when you listen to religious scriptures or whatever, they — and I feel this is the way maybe that they were able to get a lot of followers. You know, they give a lot of value to humans. You know, you are special. This whole earth was made for you. Animals use them however you want. You are very somebody very special just because you're human. And yes, to target this, you need religious people who are aware. Like for example, Fawziyeh, our friend, she's trying to show people that okay, there is this part, but at the same time, religions are about being good-hearted. It's about being kind to others. And these are the people who will shift things. And even with atheists and non-believers and agnostic, most of them are meat eaters. And they also have this self-entitlement and this pleasure that comes with feeling more special and feeling superior. You know, people feel superior to other individual — it gives them pleasure. Humans in general and I think every species maybe has that — maybe secretly cats think they're superior to others. And this is with to go back to the Zionists. It's a very Zionist idea to feel we are better than the rest. We are more superior. And I think the grain of evil, the seed of evil comes be with believing or thinking or feeling that our soul or our individuality or our being is superior to another being or another form of existence. And with the Zionists, it has been proven very effectively that evil is really when you think you're superior to somebody else; it creates evil.

Palestinian TIKTOKER: I don't know why we as Palestinians are beating around the bush when we should really just be asking Zionists why they view us as subhuman. Point blank, period. Like Palestinians are telling you they're being segregated by Zionism and you're like, "No, you're not." So you're very clearly speaking over Palestinians. And on top of that, you guys have gotten to the point of where you're comfortable dehumanizing us every two seconds. Oh, they don't love their kids. Oh, they don't do this. They don't do this. Oh, they're like this. They're like, why do you view us as subhuman? Why don't you view us as equals? Zionism doesn't view us as equals. You're not viewing us as equals. Palestinians have been telling you, you're not viewing us as equals, and you still speak over us. So, why do you view us as subhuman?

GEORGES: At the beginning we were seeing more on TV or on the phone what was going on, what was happening in Gaza, and it was just so traumatic. I thought this kind of consciousness or these kinds of actions were part of World War I and World War II. I really thought we were done with this. I didn't think that these kinds of things would still happen in 2023 and 2024. So it has really been just trauma after trauma. And after seeing them for a while on our phones, suddenly in Lebanon, we started hearing them above our heads. We started hearing the bombs. We started seeing the explosions and thousands of people dying. Of course, what happened in Palestine — it's still so much worse — but we saw how this feels like a little bit. What stood out, let's say, the most is, for example, during the war in Lebanon there is a specific vibe that one feels when there's a war happening and it's such a dark vibe, and I heard the explosions. Like, personally, I tried to get closer because me, I live in the mountains. In the mountains we did hear explosions; we did hear some booms. They were terrifying. However, most things were happening in Beirut, in the capital, so I actually went closer to it. I slept some nights in places that are close to Beirut to actually get a feeling of what these heavy bombs feel like, and they feel like terror, and the people there — they get terrorized. There is a specific vibe that you feel that you wouldn't be able to tell to people. You wouldn't be able to describe. Like when you would describe it, it would come out as something light, but the intensity of what one feels when they're in these kinds of places is not something you can describe.

People on their phones when they see something — they're seeing the person run; they're seeing things clearly — but the person who is there is probably barely being able to think. Their minds is so not clear; they don't know how their feet are, are walking without their minds giving that order to their feet, and it's just a totally different experience than watching it. And what was more not shocking but similar to shocking is when I travel to some different countries. Like after the war I did not leave Lebanon during the war. It was a point I needed to make that during bad times I will stay. You know, even if I have the Canadian passport and I can travel and even my parents, they were in the UAE, my brother in Canada, my sister in Spain — they were all like begging me to come — but I did not want to leave. However, when the war ended…

DALAL: It’s your home, it’s your country!

GEORGES: Exactly. I cannot leave my friends and the animals here and just go to safety. It did not feel right even though I wasn't going to be able to stop the war myself and I probably didn't do much, but just being there was a point I needed to make to myself. And after the war ended I went to the UAE, for example, and it was just like everything is normal. Everyone is living their lives, and I saw how they were seeing the war in Lebanon. You know, something on their phones. It's bad. It's just another piece of news. Now you appreciate the people who, like for example now in the West, you have so many people who are taking the cause to their heart even though they haven't been through — like they didn't hear bombs. So it's also nice to appreciate these kinds of people who even though they didn't feel it. And I think this is kind of what vegans are…

DALAL: …and they weren't even impacted directly.

GEORGES: Exactly. The vegans: we don't really go through the slaughterhouse, we don't go through what these individuals are going through, but still we decide to try to feel it as much as possible. And the people outside, even though they didn’t go through what we have been through in Lebanon, let's say they didn't go through the bombs, but they decided to try to feel it as much as possible and to stand with it. And the same thing, of course, like what happened in Palestine is so much worse — like it's indescribable. So it's nice to appreciate these people. But yeah, it's basically been trauma after trauma, and I think we're still in that trauma. Healing is not easy, and I think the next stage — I don't know how much this ceasefire is a real thing. I heard some people died today!

DALAL: You can never trust the occupier who's colonizing the land.

GEORGE: Yeah.

DALAL: And honestly, the word "normal" is not even normal anymore. What is normal? And we have to really decolonize this entire concept because people's perception of “normal,” quote unquote, even how they really perceive the news and the fact that they're so disconnected yet they're really connected. They have access to all the news on their phone. And with, in the case of the animals, you don't really have to be in the animals' shoes to go through the slaughterhouse and that entire experience to really believe that animals are really slaughtered and they lose their lives and they're being abused and violated and all of those violations that we see documented to really believe the animals should have fair treatment and they should have their own lives protected.

GEORGES: Absolutely.

DALAL: That shared connection with animals and with our surroundings is really what should keep us connected in a way with how we really perceive our own lives and the lives of other sentient beings as well around us. That's specifically, I guess, why you are still working and you really firstly co-founded Alnahda and you have been doing all this work in the streets, connecting with people, attending conferences, appearing in the news in different shows and talking about animal protection and the animal welfare, not just in Lebanon but also putting it into that bigger picture of animals everywhere, basically.

GEORGES: In 2022 we joined the elections and it was really a shock for people. You know, “What? You're joining to represent animals in the parliament. This is just an insane idea.” And the election laws in Lebanon don't really allow you to be by yourself. You cannot in Lebanon go through the full elections without having other people with you. And back at the time we didn't have the finances to be able to create a whole list. A whole list should be, let's say, at least five people and you need to pay money for every person to go in. So we were able to get one person only. And first we wanted it to be a certain person — they didn't want to at the end I went in myself — but yeah, the difficulty was to get other people to take us seriously that we are for — they're like, okay, animals is not a political cause. You know, and this is why parties like Party for the Animals — I'm sure that you heard of them — they are individuals and organizations that are making it easier for us to explain how the animal rights can be a political cause. It can be something that you fight for to get a seat in the parliament. You know, Party for the Animals: they have three seats in the Dutch Parliament. They used to have six at some point and they have one seat in the European Parliament.

And now there's the elections. The results will be at the end of October. And there's a good friend of ours, her name is Debbie, and she's running for the elections with Party for the Animals as number five. We really wish her all the luck. And when we see people like Debbie making it to the parliament, it really gives us this hope that people with the right ethical values are making it in positions of power. And when you see people like her who think right and who care for the animals and who care for the environment and they can see justice clearly making it to positions of power, this makes us feel that maybe there's a brighter tomorrow. Maybe in the future most political leaders will be like people who can see justice clearly.

And even now in 2026, there's the Lebanese elections and we really hope that we will be able to have the finances needed, the support needed to be able to go through the elections and, hopefully, hopefully this time we would have at least one — this is our goal — at least one voice for the animals in the Lebanese parliament. Somebody who can put these issues on the table seriously and give them importance. And this is what we want. With the amount of people now who actually care for animals, the amount is very small. We need to get our voices really loud to be heard. So, I'm hoping in these next elections for the people who care about animals to really put their souls into it 'cause this happens every four years. And between having one seat in the parliament for animals and having no seat in the parliament for animals, there's a huge difference.

If you know the people in Lebanon would hear me it is that we really need to put so much effort. We need, we need to put our whole energy into this because this is so important and this could be a historical change in the history of Lebanon to have somebody in the parliament that really cares for animals and all animals without discrimination. I think it would be revolutionary. I think it would be like such a great, great move.

DALAL: And just the fact that people understanding and seeing veganism as more than the diet, more than the food, and it's a political act is on its own really revolutionary because it really aligns the values of veganism with political activism. But then there is also another debate amongst other vegans that ‘veganism is apolitical’ and ‘vegans should be apolitical,’ meaning that they shouldn't engage with politics and to take veganism into that level. I came across this article on The Conversation and it's basically saying how veganism — ‘we argue, quote unquote, is less about self-improvement, aesthetic self-sacrifice or personal identity and more about addressing the harms created by social structures and systems. And veganism is devoted to tackling and overturning the oppression of sentient animals rather than an individual consumer choice. We should see it as a form of activism to be conducted collectively with others.’ Also throughout the article it says, and I quote, "But seeing veganism as a political movement enables us to move on from any goals of purity and perfection and away from futile debates about proper dietary choices. It acknowledges that negatively impacting some animals is unavoidable in the world that we live in. And politics are really key to the change that we hope to see where we have animals protected and we have human rights protected as well." And this harmony and unity is working towards sustaining and maintaining this world we live in.

GEORGES: Even now I feel that veganism is a little bit on the decline. I don't know if you're feeling this. Many, many people are not sharing. Many people, they became vegans only with themselves every day. However, there are still a lot of people sharing every day and trying to speak out and all this. Now what I want to say is that in veganism we need all perspectives. I don't think there's a perspective or like a way of advocating for the animals and for justice that is better than the other. Like even in politics, like in order to be able to get a seat, let's say, in the parliament, we need these people who are advocating for veganism in a non-political way. You know, they're advocating for animal rights simply because they feel this is the right thing because they — but without them knowing or without them doing intentionally, they are pushing towards veganism in politics. But in the end, I think it really comes down to politics. You can talk to your neighbour, and they would stop eating animals and this is a great win. But we need to make abuse towards animal something that's not in the status quo. You know, the status quo should be hurting any animal is bad. And the only way to do this, I think, is through politics, is through the government. It's like the government and politics. It's what at the end decides this is normal or this is not normal. Even if the whole country became vegan, let's say, but it was still in the laws of the country that you can kill an animal or that you can hurt abuse animals, anyone could come, and they would abuse an animal and nobody could do anything about it. So yeah, I think many people are still advocating, many people are quiet. However, for the people who are advocating, I think any form of advocating for animals is good.

RAYAN: The following poem is called ‘To a Killer’ and it is written and read by Mahmoud Darwish.

MAHMOUD DARWISH: To a killer. If you had considered the face of your victim and thought about it, you would have remembered your mother in the gas chamber. You would have freed yourself from the rifle’s logic, and you would have changed your mind: This is not how one reclaims an identity. To another killer. If you left the foetus for thirty days in its mother’s womb, things would’ve been different. If you left the foetus for thirty days in its mother’s womb, things would’ve been different. The occupation would be over. And this suckling infant would forget the time of the siege, and grow up a healthy child, reading at school, studying with one of your daughters about the ancient history of Asia. They might even fall in love, and give birth to a daughter, who would be Jewish by birth. What, then, have you done now? Your daughter is now a widow. Your granddaughter is now an orphan. What would you have done to your scattered family? And how have you slain three doves in one shot?

[APPLAUSE]

DALAL: I'm realizing how it's been close to two years now since we really met and came together to start our initiative Vegans for Palestine. George, you were one of the founders with us and other members as well in that group. So I'm seeing the balloons popping up on this call. It's about time that we say happy anniversary. The fight is still on. We are all united for a free Palestine. We are uniting vegans for a free Palestine as well.

GEORGES: Exactly. The first meeting we had for Vegans for Palestine was on the 16th of October and I believe Vegans for Palestine 2023. Absolutely. So it's been two years. Honestly, I couldn't be more proud of what Vegans for Palestine has achieved and the effectiveness of it. And Vegans for Palestine was at some point a place where all of us were just trying to absorb things. I remember really well the first time the hospital was bombed. The first hospital that was bombed, we were just — we were just so traumatized. You know, it was something that just cannot happen. You just cannot bomb a hospital. Vegans for Palestine, I think, was a huge part of my life at some point. It was something I was thinking about every day. And you know, at the beginning of the genocide we actually stopped working on Alnahda a little bit to work more and more on Vegans for Palestine. And I think what Vegans for Palestine has achieved and what it has become is really something for all the members of it and all the people who worked on it to be extremely proud. It's something that the occupation fears and it did impact them and they felt it, and that's, I think, what's important — and it was able to raise voices and it was able to help so many people by spreading, whether spreading the fundraiser, highlighting some things, um, so I'm really, really proud of what Vegans for Palestine has been able to achieve even though, like after the Lebanese war, I — we focused more — like myself I focused more on al-Nahda. I wasn't being — I wasn't able to be a part of Vegans for Palestine as much as I would love to, because I had to focus on things in Lebanon more and stuff.

However, every time I see Vegans for Palestine, every time I see a post it really makes me feel proud of what we were able to do — the community and the Arab world and outside of the Arab world, you know. Yeah, so it's been two years. So congratulations to you, Dalal, as well — like you have been an integral part of Vegans for Palestine. You have been really at the core of it. So, so yeah. So, what you have done is really commendable, like they say.

DALAL: Wow. I can't believe how time flies, but really it's been such an honour to really connect with you and our brothers and sisters from different parts of this world and coming together to really firstly be united together as Arabs, as Palestinians, as people from different countries and speak in different tongues, coming from different belief systems, from different political organizations, but we have one thing and one thing only that we shared together: our advocacy and our fight for a free Palestine and also free Congo and free Sudan and free other people living and undergoing atrocious attacks and unbelievable situations because there's a certain power that believes they have the right over people's lives and they believe they're entitled over people's lives and you would have expected people to actually do something about it. But then we have seen….

GEORGES: …you would expect the whole world to just go on fire. That's what you would think would happen if you see a hospital bomb, like, yeah. Like the whole world — they stop everything they're doing, go on the streets and be like, "Okay, this is a red line." No, just like big no. But yeah, the world just doesn't work that way, you know. It works really slowly. The level of injustice and the level of ugliness that took place during these years, I think this will require years and years to come. I think this is something that scholars in the future will be talking about. Psychologists would be making books about how this trauma, how to absorb this trauma or what the people back then felt. I think this is something that will take generations and generations to come to truly be able to absorb it and to see the full picture clearly. I think now we're still in the midst of it. It's like you're in a storm and you're trying to make sense of everything. It's not an easy place where we're at now, but you know, future generations will speak about it and things will become clearer and clearer and the struggle of the Palestinians and the courage and the grit of the Palestinians will be, I think, something spoken about as legends in maybe 20,000 years afterwards. I truly believe this. And yeah, and going back to Vegans for Palestine — in addition to the Instagram post, to the people who benefited like the people in Gaza who got help because of Vegans for Palestine and all the other things it does — a very important thing that it created is a network of people. It is very connected people from all around the world and we're very connected. You know, me and you, Dalal, we're doing this podcast, but we speak every few weeks. Said and I speak every now and then. Rukaya came to Lebanon and we saw her. You know, there's many people; we created some sort of a network and this network will never fade. It's simply something that has been created forever and the ripple effect of this and the waves that will come afterwards will become stronger and stronger. But yeah, this is also something that Vegans for Palestine created: a network of people, a very solid network of people that are very connected and are speaking almost daily at least. There's two people every day speaking that met through Vegans for Palestine and a universal network. There's people in Spain. There's more than 40 or, like last time, Rukaya showed me the organizations that are part of Vegans for Palestine — there's more than 60 or 80 organizations that are part of Vegans for Palestine. So yeah, I mean definitely something nice. But it's something nice that's trying to end something very, very ugly.

DALAL: And the point being is that it's really bringing people together and this is what we need more than ever in our lifetime. Thank you very much, Georges.

GEORGES: Absolutely, thank you. It was a pleasure seeing you.

DALAL: And catching up here and having this really lovely interview with you as well.

GEORGES: Same here. Likewise. And hopefully, you know, we will be able to meet in Jordan, maybe. However, our…

DALAL: …or in Lebanon!

GEORGES: …or in Lebanon. Absolutely. Or what would be amazing is to meet in Palestine. In reality, you feel so far from here, but you're just like a couple of hour drive from where I am right now. Yeah. It's like an hour or an hour and a half, but it's still not possible for us to meet. However, hopefully — and let’s be confident about it — that one day will come where we will be able to drive to Palestine and you will be able to drive to Lebanon and it will go back to how it was before the occupation. That's how it should be.

DALAL: Yeah, yallah habibi — come to Palestine. Let's have some hummus, felafel, knafeh, maqlouba together. And m’juddra.

GEORGES: Sounds like a great plan!

DALAL: Yeah. Well, and I will see you soon then!

[MUSIC]

COMMENTATOR: [ __ ] hate Israel. I hate [ __ ] Israel. I [ __ ] [ __ ] hate Israel. I hate Israel. And I'm saying it.