Vegans for Palestine Podcast - Episode 28 - Beyond the Headlines

What happens when you look beyond the headlines? In this episode, Dalal sits down with Dr. Leila for an honest conversation about Iran, media narratives, sport, food justice, and animal welfare. Drawing on her own family's experiences, Dr. Leila shares what daily life in Iran has looked like during the Israeli–US war, the uncertainty it has created, and why it's important to recognise the diversity of Iranian society rather than the stereotypes often presented in mainstream media. She also talks about the importance of decolonising language and knowledge so people can better access authentic Iranian voices and perspectives. The conversation then turns to veganism, where Dr. Leila challenges single-issue activism and argues that food justice should come before food purity. Dalal and Dr. Leila also explore the politics of animal visibility, questioning why some forms of animal suffering receive global attention while others are overlooked, and how major sporting events like the World Cup can reveal inconsistencies in conversations about animal welfare and human rights.

This episode is captioned for Deaf and Hard of Hearing viewers here.

🌐 Website: https://drleilad.com
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drleilad/

The music in this episode is by Makimakkuk (Majdal Nijim), who is a Palestinian singer, rapper, producer, and DJ from Ramallah whose music blends hip hop, electronic, experimental, and Palestinian folk influences. Through her self-described "Sovereign Hop" sound, she explores themes of identity, justice, and liberation while amplifying Palestinian stories through music.
Follow Makimakkuk here:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makimakkuk/

Thank you Dr. Leila for joining us and sharing your knowledges with us.

Transcript

[music]

RAYAN: THIS is Rayan, and this is episode 28 of the Vegans for Palestine podcast. In this episode, Dalal and Dr. Leila talk about everything beyond the headlines: Iran, the politics of sport, animal welfare and visibility, and the decolonization of knowledges. Dr. Leila shares her personal insight and her experiences about her family's daily life in Iran and the diversity within Iranian society, and how the US-Israeli war on Iran has disrupted life significantly and caused instability and uncertainty. Dr. Leila also addresses the unfair and incredibly biased portrayal of Iran in the news media and how the decolonization of the language in these reports can help people access authentic Iranian voices. And also, Dr. Leila and Dalal talk about animal visibility and animal welfare, and how the recent World Cup ultimately highlights Western hypocrisy. Enjoy this one.

DR. LEILA: Thank you for having me. It. I really enjoy your podcast. I have been listening to many of the many episodes. Not all of them. I have a few to catch up on. But I think what you are doing is so important, having voices that are usually left out of the, you know, mainstream spaces. So that's really important, what you are doing. So I'm really honoured to be a part of it.

DALAL: Before we go any deeper into this conversation, how are you? How is your family? How are your friends? How are people in Iran?

DR. LEILA: Well, my family is safe, and, you know, my uncle's office—and I learned about that later, obviously, because there wasn't any internet, no connection—but my uncle's office was actually damaged on the first day of the war because it was very close to one of the locations that was targeted in Tehran. Nobody was hurt. It, when I heard about it, I felt like kind of, you know, it was so close. I mean, you know, the war, I mean, obviously, I felt for all my people, you know, being, you know, killed and losing their livelihood and all that, but just, you know, when you feel like actually somebody in my own family, somebody very close to me, was also affected, but it—I know it was just a building, but it was like kind of, you know, it could have been my uncle, and that is the brother of my father, so he's like a second father to me. So it was like, wow, so close. So yes, my family is safe, and, you know, I have actually a very large family in Iran, and I always think that my family reflects the diversity of Iranian society. We have family members across the economic spectrum, and I think that's very important. That is something that maybe doesn't really come across on social media. You know, for example, again, just my own family members, some are very wealthy, and they have a level of financial security that many people in Iran don't have. But then I have family members who actually rely on financial support to survive. And also, when it comes to just politics and religion, I have some family members who are very westernized. They are critical of Islam. But then I have family members who are very religious. They observe Ashura, Tasua, and, you know, they, you know, are really just very religious. But then many of my family members are just somewhere in between. So I think, you know, the diversity that I can find, you know, among my family members, it also reflects the wider spectrum of Iranian society. Since the war has started, but not just the war, you know, for the last year, really, because if you think about it, this current, or the, you know, the war in March was just a continuation of what happened last June, right? Because they actually—that is when they start. When I say they, I mean the West. When the West started to put more pressure on Iran, on Iranian government. So, you know, with the sanctions and the exchange rate for dollar and everything. So everything has become more expensive, and it affects everyone. But, of course, those who were already struggling before, they are struggling even more, and I think, you know, we don't think of all the practical consequences of that because of sanctions. A lot of essential items are not available, or they are very expensive. A lot of medication, for example, so people don't have access to it. So yeah, everyone is in Iran is affected, but in different ways. I think, you know, we need to remember I am here just one Iranian talking for 93 million Iranians, okay? So what I'm sharing is just a very small snapshot of the Iranian society. So what I have seen is a lot of people don't really like the unpredictability. They are kind of, you know, okay, even now with the ceasefire and negotiations, how long is it going to last? You know, that's why there is actually a group of Iranians who say, you know what? No, we don't want the negotiations. We should really carry on and put an end to it. And I think this unpredictability, I have heard that from a lot of people. Those—I mean, everybody's against the war, and I think even those—there were, there was a small group in Iran, inside Iran, who thought that maybe the war is an answer, you know, or the answer, or the only option of making the situation better. But everybody quickly changed their minds because they saw how everyday people are affected. And, you know, one thing that my cousin told me, she said that, you know, on the first day—or not on the first day, but in the first few days—when they targeted one of the, you know, military officers in Tehran, there was another building. Obviously, you know, when they bomb an area, other buildings in that area al are also affected, and there was a building in that area where young people were having a party. So a lot of young people, and many of them were probably even against the government, the Iranian government, they were killed. Young people who are just, you know, partying. So I think, you know, when people started seeing all of that, it became clear, you know, what a war looks like. I know some people, older generations, they still remember the Iran-Iraq War, but I think, you know, for a lot of people, it is just—they don't really understand what it means. You know, when you have, like, kind of a building next to you bumped, and you see the rubble and everything, and how, you know, when you see people actually losing their loved ones, and people who look like you and who are maybe, you know, not supporting the government. So I think, you know, that's why people change their minds, even those people. And that's again what I have heard from different people, like kind of, you know, from my own family members, but also family members of other Iranians in diaspora. So it's not always just my own family members. So yes, everybody's against the, you know, the war, but the unpredictability, the fact that, you know, it continues, there are still sanctions, everything is still expensive, and there is also the shadow of maybe there will be another war, maybe there will be more bombings. So yeah, I think—and somebody said that she feels, and it is again a friend who lives actually abroad. She said that she feels that Iranians have lost their joy in life. They are not joyful anymore. They don't have that cheer, that natural cheerfulness that they used to have. I don't know about that, but yes, something has definitely changed.

DALAL: And with that, I see how on social media, people seek that pace, or—and they create the space on social media to share their opinions, to share commentary on what is happening, and share their daily updates and daily lives. But then there is also something missing in how the media is covering the war on Iran and how they're reporting on the Iranian people. From the very incident when Israel America bumped the school in Iran, we saw the imbalance in how the media was reporting on that very event. And I don't even know if event is the right word. At the back of my mind, I can't forget all the images of the Palestinian children in Gaza and all the bombing and the land confiscation that's happening across the occupied West Bank. But also, when I look at things from that perspective and see what's happening in Iran, a lot is missing in the media, and a lot needs to be decolonized about how the media is wording, framing, reporting, basically, on all of these events. How does that really coverage often reduce Iranian people to state conflict, sanctions, or protest headlines while ignoring everyday life, care work, food justice, and civil society voices?

DR. LEILA: Well, firstly, I think it is important to remember that what we see in the mainstream media is a very narrow snapshot of Iran. They like to present Iran to the dominant political framework. So it is an oppressive country where there is no freedom. People are oppressed. People are portrayed as fanatic Muslims. You know, they hate animals, and, you know, women are oppressed. So sanctions are necessary so that they are forced to change. So it's almost like, kind of, you know, we need to force them to change because otherwise they wouldn't—forcе, sorry, they wouldn't change on their own. So it—the West is creating an image that they want people to believe so that it serves their interests. So on the one side, we have that, but then we have also social media. And again, I believe, yes, social media is great. You know, it has helped us a lot to see what is really happening. A, you know, we got firsthand, you know, accounts from people on the ground, and the same is happening, you know, in Iran, kind of, not really completely, and I tell you why, because what we hear and see on social media is still very limited, a very limited image. It is the image that we see through the lens of a select group of Iranians. You know, certain voices are platformed, and, you know, I always think, you know, we say, "Oh, yes, platforming someone," but it's not just about inviting someone, for example, to a podcast or to a conference. It's also whose posts are getting, you know, more likes and engagement, whose posts are being shared, because with likes and sharing the posts, you are giving them the visibility that they need. So it's almost like, you know, you're amplifying their voices. What the West doesn't maybe acknowledge is that we humans—it's just a normal human, natural instinct. We amplify people who feel familiar to us. So in Western spaces, Iranians who appear, you know, closer to Western culture or Western lifestyles, they are seen more as credible. You know, people who dress a certain way. People who has a certain lifestyle. People who speak in certain ways, people who speak English in a, you know, with a good accent, for example, or with an American accent, with a British accent. So, you know, people who kind of present themselves in ways that fit the existing ideas about Iran. So you see how there is a narrative, and that narrative is just being repeated. Nobody's really questioning that narrative. Even among Iranians, you know, there's always this kind of almost like a battle, you know, whose voice is more legitimate than other Iranians. And, you know, people come and say, "Oh, I have family back in Iran. That makes me more Iranian." Like, kind of, you know, I know what is really going on. Or I went to school in Iran. I speak Persian. And recently, what I saw, and that really was kind of shocking to me, there was this debate. "Oh, do you have an Iranian passport?" And people would actually make videos showing their pass—their Iranian passports, like kind of, look, I haven't a passport. And I'm like, I have an Austrian passport. There's nothing Austrian about me. Nothing at all. So I think it is just really interesting how social media amplifies certain narratives. But again, these are the narratives that fits the idea they already have about Iran. I think that's really important to consider and always reflect on that. Why am I actually amplifying this voice? What does that say about what I know about Iran? Am I actually open to learn something new about Iran? So that's why, you know, obviously people have changed a lot, and I think it is good. You know, when I say people, I mean, like, the global—you know, globally, people have changed. They have, you know, since October 7th, they have woken up to the hypocrisy. They are questioning things. So this is good, this is great. But then it forces us to have these binaries. Everything on what the mainstream media says is bad, and we just go the opposite way, like kind of the extreme opposite way, and there's danger in that because the truth is usually somewhere in between. I'm not defending the empire, by the way. But so the point is just like kind of, you know, when especially when people talk about decolonizing, is not doing the opposite of what the West does. That that's not decolonizing. That's completely wrong. So going back to what you were saying about, you know, how the kind of Iran is portrayed in the media, and that they really like to give that narrative that there's always conflict, sanctions, and protests. You know, I think we often hear that Iran is a great civilization, and this is true. But I think what makes Iran and Iranians so special isn't just our history. It's also our resilience, our determination, but al also our love for our culture. And I think in many ways we are quite lucky because Iran was never formally colonized in the way that other countries were. Of course, we had foreign powers, you know, first the Russians, then the British, and later the United States. They have always interfered in our politics, exploited our resources, checked our history. But Iran has always remained more or less politically independent. Now, I think the problem is that geographically Iran is in a strategically important position. So I think the West is actually invested in keeping Iran kind of contained, and that's, uh, you know, why they have always tried to interfere in our politics. And when you want people—when you know the West wants their own people to support sanctions or military action or political pressure against another country, what they have to do is reduce that country, those people, to a simple story. So I think that's why we always see Iran through one narrow narrative. You know, Iranians are the enemy, religious extremists, oppressors, you know, people who deserve, you know, to be sanctioned against. And I think that is really this simple narrative that to no—to serve empire's interest, and it just—it just it's much easier, you know, to justify policies to harm those ordinary people. And I think, again, one good thing is that, you know, people are questioning all of that. People are questioning that simple, narrow narrative and trying to see beyond that. And one of the biggest surprises from the whole, you know, those—the last two wars really was that people realized that the country, you know, Iran is more resilient than they were led to believe, and not just in terms of military, but also like kind of, you know, how people are united. Iranians, you know, they united, you know, h because we were all really—or the majority of us, I shouldn't say we all because we have the monarchies, obviously—were against foreign intervention. And I think the US and Israel miscalculated that twice, last June and now in March. You know, how united we can be against foreign intervention.

DALAL: And this is really pretty much the ideal imagery, the idea of what a perfect victim is all about, because what I see in the media, not just about Iran, but like other countries as well, is how the people who are undergoing the genocide and they're constantly bombed. They're trying—they have—they're pushed to constantly try to prove their humanity, basically. And what we're not really—foreign politics analysts, we're not really from that political spectrum, kind of, analysts or experts—but we're human beings who have common sense, and we basically look at things from a moral perspective and ethical perspective. And that really explains a lot of things, because the moment we see how, you know, as you said, culture basically is missing in in that conversation about Iran, and pretty much all other countries where people are facing genocide, and reducing Iran into nuclear conflict or sanctions or the protest crackdowns or executions or the oil and the geopolitics and the geopolitical tension, it really takes away the human—the human from the story. It really strips humanity out of, out of Iran and out of the, of life and the legacy of the people of Iran. And the school bombing in Minah and the killing of all these children showed us how people can be selective in their compassion. And at the same time, where all these things were missing from the conversations, and it takes us a lot to understand how—it takes a lot for people to try to see things from a different perspective, and that's what you have been doing on social media, with your decolonize your language and decolonization posts that I found really educating and eye-opening, in that you take the posts that are in Farsi and you translate it into English, and you just keep the meaning as is, but also provide more context in in the sense, so you give people more understanding and background to what people are talking about. I find that from one side to be eye-opening, but at the same time, it's a very common practice that—I mean, for us Palestinians, we do that on social media when we translate posts from Arabic to English and vice versa, to try to keep that conversation going on what's really happening in Palestine. But how has that been for you to educate people about Iran, given that you have that richness of your understanding of your own country and the context around all these events happening?

DR. LEILA: When I talk about decolonization in general, we forget that we live in a world that has been shaped by colonialism, and not just politically and economically, which is really important, but almost, you know, in almost every aspect of our lives, it has been shaped by colonialism and colonial ideas. So even the way we relate to ourselves and to each other, what we expect from other people, what we consider normal or acceptable, what we take for granted, all of that has been shaped by colonial ideas. And I think we see that quite well in how the language plays a role in how we communicate. For example, posting English and adding Persian subtitles. I think it is seen more as a normal practice. Right? If I was going to post in Persian but add English, like kind of subtitles, and expect English-speaking people to read the subtitles to get my point, to be honest, I think that would be unrealistic. And I know people would say, "Oh, no. If you have great content, people will read it." No, they wouldn't. And I think that is again something—some of the advice that they give us, it doesn't translate into reality for us, you know, for those of us from the Global South. So, and I think that's also something that we, as marginalized communities, we have to accept, that we need other platforms or other media or other ways of conveying our message. So for me, when I talk about decolonizing language, it's also about asking, why should we always use English? Why, you know, why should English be the default, right? And why is it normal for Iranians to consume knowledge in English, but not for English speakers to consume knowledge in Persian? Now, so why do I actually post in English? Because that is the main language I'm using, and I add Persian subtitles because I'm actually trying to reach people who are outside of Iran, whether they are Iranians in the diaspora or non-Iranians, because I think, you know, people in Iran, they don't need me to explain their own country to them. They understand their language, and, you know, there are some really amazing scholars, journalists, and thinkers inside Iran who are doing, you know, amazing work, and I'm learning from them. And I just think sometimes those people, because their main content is imper—Persian, they need to be translated, actually, you know, because, as I said earlier about platforming, we don't—those voices are usually not platformed in the West. So what I do is I translate that and add context, because sometimes, you know, we say certain things, but it has a different connotation, or when you don't know the history behind it, you don't know what it really means. So I want to really kind of show Iran to the outsiders through an Iranian lens rather than just my kind of views. Obviously, it is going to be biased because I choose which post I translate. You know, sometimes I want to translate certain things, and I just feel like, you know, that would be too much, or I just summarize it because, you know, yeah, you're right. I'm not an interpreter. That's not my day job. But I think it is really important to have that conversation going on, and it should go both ways. And the reason I started actually adding Persian subtitles is because people were asking me to do—really, Iranians, a lot of Iranians kept asking me, and I just thought, why not? And I feel like, you know, the more I do that, it's also changing me. And I think I find that actually quite really interesting, that by adding my own language to my posts, you know, my mother tongue, really, which is my first language, really, it is changing me, and it is changing my thinking. So you see, language shapes us. You know, the language we use shapes our thinking. So if I just want to add that, you know, Iranians in diaspora, when they consume knowledge in English or in any other European, you know, language, how that has shaped them, you know, and I think these are important questions to reflect on.

TIKTOKER 1: Big shout out to Mexico for being the only folks who were respectful to the soccer team from Iran during this entire World Cup situation. Iran was, in my humble opinion—actually, I think it's more of a fact—done so dirty by the United States, by FIFA as an organization, and by the news at large.

DALAL: This would take us to talk about the World Cup and Iran. Finally, you know, they qualified, and they—the same—but the irony, the irony is how the same country that is that's bombed Iran is the same country that's hosting Iran, the Iranian team, to play. But to make things clear, we're approaching things and what we're discussing in this episode is really coming from a vegan lens. We're both vegans. We're people who really attempt to decolonize what veganism is and show the intersectionality between veganism and pretty much everything else in our lives. And from a vegan lens, from a, from a humanitarian lens as well, where do you see those values between veganism and the loyalty to the game and the loyalty to the Iranian team and to your country intersecting, and sort of how does that, you know, look like to basically somebody who doesn't really know anything about politics and politics of the sports and what's—and they have been probably missing on all the nitty-gritty details of really what's happening in Iran. But on the World Cup situation with Iran, how can you just explain that in in a, in a vegan, decolonized way to people?

DR. LEILA: Well, there is a lot to say about the World Cup, to be honest. I think firstly we need to unpack what happened really with the team because, you know, people keep saying, "Oh, keep politics out of the sport," but international competitions are political by their very nature. You know, kind of, you know, we have all these athletes, they sing their own, their national anthem, they wear their country's flag, they are actually representing their people. So they are representing millions of people. So Iran's national team was representing 93 millions of Iranian, and I think for many of us who are from the Global South, you know, we have experienced colonialism, foreign interventions, sanctions. We are constantly being bullied and dehumanized by the West. So these events are an opportunity to kind of feel a sense of pride and hope. It's almost like saying, look at us, we matter, we exist, because that's what the West is trying to do, right? To kind of eliminate us, like kind of, you know, you don't matter, you are not part of the bigger picture. And these events, we use them usually to say, look at us, we are here and we are—we very much [clears throat] matter. And so it's not really always about the winning. It's about the experience and what it represents. And going back to the Iranian—Iran's national team, I think, you know, what they did was amazing. You know, this year especially, you know, they were harassed, humiliated, and I think it was all, you know, on purpose. You know, it was intentional by the US because the US didn't want to—do want Iran, a country that they have been bombing in the middle of negotiations. They didn't want that country to win and move to the next stage while all of that is happening. If they would have done it on American soil, you know, it would have been a diff—again, another win for Iran. So, they were really trying hard to prevent it, and they did do that. You know, a lot of the staff members didn't get any visas. The players had to travel to the US and leave immediately after the game. You know, it is, for an athlete, that is a lot of extra unnecessary pressure and strain. They didn't have time to recover. And then at the airport they were, you know, subjected to extensive searches, and that was also part of being humiliated. They did that on purpose. It was like, you know, if they are humiliating Iran's national team, they're humiliating Iran and Iranians, and so they wanted to actually really prevent them from moving forward. And we also had the, unfortunately, the monarchists who were really insulting these players. So all of that, and through all of that really, the players, they kept their heads high, they kept smiling, they carried themselves with dignity, and I really felt like they showed the world what being Iranian means. So this, you know, the US tried everything to prevent it, but I think at the end of the day, the players were the real champions of this World Cup. Now, we know that everything is political, even if people want to deny that, and, you know, international sports and politics are not separate. You know, we saw how after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, FIFA suspended Russian national teams, for example, but we see that Israel is committing a genocide, openly admitting to its war crimes, and doesn't have any consequences for Israeli athletes. So we see that her politics play a huge role, geopolitics play a huge role. And going back to veganism, the tension exists because a lot of vegans, they are single-issue vegans, and I think it is just because they don't understand how systems of oppression work. Now, a lot of single-issue vegans, and I think that's so interesting, I really find that so fascinating. These vegans, they should—they say, "We should focus on animals. You know, keep everything else separate. You know, our focus is animals." But they don't realize that they are not really single-issue themselves. They have really strong opinions when it comes to Islam, colonialism, racism. So basically what they are saying is they are aligned with the dominant Western narratives. So the message is really just, you know, care about animals and don't challenge the dominant systems. So that is what they are saying. So they are not really single-issue vegans as they like to be. You know, they are very much, you know, caring about other issues, but the other issues that they care about, they follow the values of the, you know, dominant kind of, you know, values. So, and I think we know that. We know that these struggles are not separate. You know, when you normalize violence against one group, you're also normalizing violence against other groups, and that would include animals. And so, and I think, you know, I don't know if I should add it here. I mean, I have been on your podcast a few times. I have talking—I have talked about, you know, white veganism, and I have also named people, and to be honest, I'm tired of vegan spaces. Also those vegans who call themselves intersectional, because I think they are not truly aware of their own privileges and how they can reproduce the same systems of exploitation that they claim they are challenging. And yes, those intersectional vegans, they have expanded that—their circle of compassion when you compare them to those other anti-intersectional vegan spaces, but it is not enough. And I think especially for those of us who are multiply marginalized, you know, there are so many ways how those of us with multiple marginalizations, we fall through the cracks and we pay the price. And, uh, I feel sometimes like, you know, I'm like Cassandra in the Greek mythology. You know, I see problems, I name them, and then I am being isolated because a lot of vegans don't like to confront, you know, uncomfortable truths. They like to stay in their own bubbles, feel morally good compared to non-vegans, but also compared to those un-intersectional vegans, and they don't take the time to reflect on how they are actually also contributing to those systems of, you know, oppression. And I have said it before, and I'm going to say it again, even though I may get hatred and, you know, for saying that: vegans are not the ones who will save animals because our movement is really not built on liberation. Our movement is still built on the idea that there are a group of people who are morally better, who are superior. You know, vegans are superior because they don't consume animals. So it is built on that idea that those superior people are going to say—save everyone else. So you see how there is oppression involved. The hierarchy continues.

DALAL: Yeah. Totally. I mean, the fact that somebody feels superior to someone else or to anything else, that is not really at the, at the very core of what veganism is truly about. I mean, being a vegan, it's one of the many ways you can really understand, you know, as you said, the privileges that you have and then invest that into trying to make a difference in improving the lives of the creatures around you, from the humans, the animals, insects, the environment, everything that you—we really live together with. That's how we were supposed to work together, as collectively, as people. And when we talk about sports and veganism, it's veganism asks us to expand loyalty beyond humans, beyond nationalism, beyond convenience, and toward vulnerable beings. And, you know, like I think when we see veganism in Iran, it's not just an imported Western trend. It really intersects with the local ethics, religion, class, animal rescue, medicine, environmental concerns, and food culture, and everything that we really witness and live collectively together as humans. Given all of this, like, how do we also read, you know, the Iranian team playing in the US, the same country that's bombing Iran, but at the same time we see how there was a lot of talking in the media about the pride march between Iran, the Iranian team, and the Egyptian team, and how players were pressured to fit in a, in a certain narrative that is serving certain interests across mainstream media and Western news? Like, how do we read that? Where is the hypocrisy in in that regard?

DR. LEILA: Well, I could just say one short sentence and then I expand on it. It is the arrogance of the West. Okay, that it is purely that, honestly. And I think it's actually good that you mentioned veganism, and if we actually compare it to the vegan movement, we keep forgetting, yes, the Indigenous people, we have always had plant-based eating. That is our default, actually, dietary patterns. You know, it's interesting that, you know, we have always been plant-based, maybe not vegan but plant-based. But veganism, you know, a lot of times when I talk about veganism, people say, "Yeah, but you know, this British guy, you know, coined the term." Yes. And what he did is he coined the term, and he made it a European kind of, you know, discovery, you know, like kind of, you know, invention. Like kind of, you know, it comes from Europe. But also what he did is he h—kind of, you could even say, appropriated—I know people are not going to like it, but he appropriated, you know, plant-based eating, all right? And—but he appropriated the principles of no harm and made, you know, introduced them to the European institutions. So, and by doing that, it also adopted—the whole movement adopted European values, Western values, which are colonial values. And what are colonial values? It's always the colonizer knows better. The colonizers have the right and the power to kind of bully others, to show them that, you know, you're wrong in this and that. And I think, you know, I'm not talking against the pride, but what they did is on purpose, taking two Muslim countries and putting them, you know, there and kind of making a display of it. It was them showing that, look, we are more civilized than you are. So that was the main purpose. It wasn't actually solidarity with the gay community or queer community. Not at all. It was just to kind of prove a point to those uncivilized Muslim people. And this is something we see a lot across the vegan movement, that, you know, the white people, the white Savior, goes to India and kind of, you know, tries to get them to go vegan. And the same pattern, you know, you know, I have said it before, let me say it again. Provide, for example, is one example. They are having all these branches all over Asian countries and African countries. You know, it is new colonialism. They are importing their own ideas. And it's interesting because, as I said, plant-based eating is our default, and now the West is coming and introducing us to that as if they have discovered something new, and we, the uncivilized, we have to learn from them. So yes, I don't know if that answers your question, but if I want to keep it short, that's it.

DALAL: No, it does. It does. And I think that also takes us to a different point, but it's all connected. It's definitely on the same topic, but it's fascinating also to see how that civilization and that humanity plays into what the media says about seeing Iranian people being rescued or escaping the bombing with their animals, with their cats and dogs and birds and all sorts of animals.

And then, all of a sudden, the media is, you know, putting that huge spotlight on how, oh, Iranians, they have animals, and there are animals in Iran. And that animal visibility in the war is also something to really think about when apparently there is a lot of, you know, missing information in the media, because all the time you're just talking about the human losses and you're just counting the numbers as media, but then when there is an animal in the picture, then everything shifts and changes.

Will this visibility ever change anything for animals in Iran? And this is the same question you were also posting as well. So I'm returning that question to you.

DR. LEILA: Yes, it's a very good question, and I am actually doing more research, and I'm going to post more about it because, you know, we always hear like, oh, Iran kills animals, Iran kills dogs and does this and that. And it is interesting because now we have all these non-vegan Iranians saying, come on, look, we have pet clinics. So why would we have pet clinics if Iranians don't have pets?

Yes, but, you know, a country has to have veterinarians. You know, having vets doesn't mean that animals are being treated fairly. So there are so many different layers, and that's—I always say, you know, when we are talking about us, but ourselves, our cultures, we cannot just come and say, oh, we are doing the opposite of what the West is doing, or look, we are doing exactly as the West is doing. Like, for example, when the expat—or, well, they are called expat—when the foreigners left Dubai and they didn't take their animals with them, to say, oh, look, Iranians did take their animals with them. No, I think I like—I don't like these comparisons because at—whenever we do that, we are still saying those foreigners, those Westerners, are superior to us. So if we are doing better than them, then look, we are at their level. And if they—if we are doing the same as they are doing, again, it means we are, you know—it's always—we should just stop comparing ourselves with them. You know, I think that would be really great if you could just stop doing that.

So saying that, you know, we have pet clinics, then it means that we are okay? No. It is more complex than that. And I think one service that we could do to the animals is leave them alone. Leave them alone in Iran. Stop talking about them in the West because you're not going to get the whole picture. You are going to actually misrepresent them.

And whenever anything comes from outside—and it doesn't have to be from, you know, the West—anything that comes from the outside, if I tell you, for example, I'm a nutritionist. If I—whenever I tell people, oh, you should be eating this and that, what are you going to do? You're going to rebel. The whole body is going to rebel, resist following that advice. But if you say, I want to do that, then you're more likely to follow that advice.

So whenever the West comes and tells us, oh, you should be doing this or that, the whole country is going to resist. So the best service that they can do is leave us alone. And that, you know, goes to everything in Iran. We can decide.

Now, going back to animals, yes, of course, all countries—and I think, again, when I say all countries, I do include European and North American countries as well—there is animal abuse. You know, it's nothing new. There is animal abuse, animal exploitation. A lot of healthy animals are being killed, whether it is for food or just because, like kind of, you know, there is overpopulation and they want to make space. You know, a lot of healthy dogs and cats are being utilized, and that is everywhere.

Now, maybe in some countries it is done in a more brutal way, but that doesn't—you know, it doesn't make one better or the other. But going back to what you said, like kind of, oh, suddenly people saw Iranians have pets. Why does it matter? Because it is like, oh, they are humans like us. So what the West is doing, again, anybody who lives like us, follows our lifestyle, maybe they are worth to—or they deserve to live. They deserve not to have the sanctions.

So you see, that's why I feel like, you know, when we were talking about FIFA, for example, if it was up to me, I would say, you know what? Stop playing their games. You know, us from the Global South, let's not go to those games. Imagine if we would do that. That would send really a powerful message.

So yes, I think—I don't know. I think your question was what the visibility does. Now, I think the visibility, in a way, it is good because it is good that people know Iranians better, our culture. I think it is nice, but at the same time, it comes with challenges.

So long-term, I think it definitely is good, but short-term, I think for many of us across West Asia—and I do believe it is also true for Palestinians, you know, because now, in the last two and a half years, Palestinians have been very visible—but I think, yes, long-term it is good because Palestine will be free. But short-term, we are paying a price, and we are often paying a heavy price.

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DR. LEILA: I think we need to start by acknowledging and [music] also challenging the purity culture that exists within vegan spaces. Vegans are always like, "Oh, honey is not vegan. Dair is not vegan. Eggs are not vegan." And don't get me wrong, I will personally never ever consume animal products. I don't even like the taste of animal products. So I have never tried those fake meats, and I truly believe we need to get away from that because as long as people like, you know, the taste of meat, there will always be animal, you know, consumption.

But even the fact that I need to say that before making my point shows some really fundamental problems within vegan movement. We vegans polish each other, and a lot of our conversations is about who is morally pure before being considered credible. So that's why, you know, if we care for humans, we obviously not credible enough.

And so my answer or my response to this vegan policing is food justice has to come before food purity. You know, ethical eating is not just about, you know, what is on each person's plate. It's also about food sovereignty, about having fair food systems and biodiversity and workers' rights and also who is using the land and people's access to healthy food, you know, and I think a lot of times these vegans, their compassion stops on at animals and they don't want to extend it to humans.

So if we have a movement that only cares about the animals and they want to ask other people to care about animals, but they dismiss the impact of war, occupations, sanctions on human lives, then they are actually the ones who lose moral credibility.

And for me, I think, you know, when it comes to decolonizing nutrition, it also means that our food choices are happening within systems of power. People make choices, dietary choices, based on their circumstances. And we cannot ignore those circumstances. If we want people to eat more plant-based, you know, we have to care about the conditions that make those choices possible.

I mean, again, we see that, you know, in a world situation, can you really ask them to eat this or that? You can't even ask them to eat a healthy food because it, you know, it's not possible.

And I always remembered this—there's this vegan athlete, Ritual, although I'm not sure if he's still vegan, and when he was training for his marathons, once he had forgotten his—any money. He didn't have any money on him, and he was running, he felt faint, and he needed food. And he said that—I read his book—he said that he went to the trash and found some, you know, leftover burgers, you know, like, you know, animal products, and he was vegan, and he didn't care. It was from a trash bin. He got, like kind of, you know, leftovers, buns, breads, burgers, and he ate it so that he had the energy to carry on.

So you see, he didn't judge himself, and nobody judged him at that point. It was quite interesting because he wrote about it in his book, and I have never come across anybody who actually asked him, "Oh my God, you didn't—you know, you had animal-based product at that point."

And I also like to add that, as a nutritionist, I have come across three people, three animal rights activists, like really passionate animal rights activists. Two of them are not vegan anymore. One of them is still. And all of those three—I mean, those who are not vegan anymore—they gave up their vegan diet because, you know, a doctor told them they need to eat meat for health, and they were justifying that, oh, they needed that. And, you know, as a nutritionist and as a former doctor, I know they didn't, but I didn't want to argue with them.

So, and they were really passionate animal rights activists, you know, at the forefront. So if those people give up on the ethics when their own health is, you know, threatened, so what—why do you expect other people not to do that?

And I'm not going to name any of them because they're actually quite famous people, and I was quite shocked.

DALAL: I don't know who you're talking about. [laughter]

DR. LEILA: No, but I'm just—No, I don't think one of them, actually, you wouldn't know. But it is interesting because he told me that he knows himself—he himself knows other people who have done that. So I'm just thinking, you know, when it comes to our own personal safety and survival, we are very understanding, but other people, we judge. And again, that is this vegan purity policy, and yeah.

DALAL: I don't want to call it a trend, but this is becoming sort of a recurring event across social media platforms, that people come out of—they have been distant, they have been on deactivation mode and away from social media—and then all of a sudden, they show up, and then they write these big post explaining to people why, oh, I'm not a vegan anymore. I'm not eating or living or wearing or using X and Y and Z because I have this health deficiency. I have this and that, and the doctor advised me to eat animal products. And it really gets you to question the very moral, you know, stance and what they have been practicing all these years before, you know, as vegans and now non-vegans. But by all means, it's been really eye-opening to see veganism also from a different perspective and how people really relate to it and how they justify it as long as it serves their benefits and their needs in a way. I'm not judging people. I really—I had people before coming to me and telling me like, "Oh, just so you know, we're not vegans anymore. I kind of like missed eating eggs," and they ate eggs after seven, eight years, and they were like, "Oh, it tastes good and I want to eat it more and more." Yeah, that's your choice. But it's not really that—it's, I think, it's really important that people always remember that veganism is beyond the plate. It's beyond that meal that you're having at the end of the day. And Iran is beyond the headlines. And veganism also, again, is beyond all the very narrow things that people, you know, just explain it with a plate or dietary choices and preferences. And football is beyond the flag, and translation is beyond the words. And I really hope people, when they read the news again and when they're following updates from Iran, from Palestine, from Congo, from people who are living a genocide, they really think of different factors playing into what's really happening. Do you have any final recommendation for resources where people can find more updates from people in Iran or follow any Iranians in diaspora? And if you have any advice as well for people when they're following the updates about Iran, like what's that to keep in mind when they're hearing and reading the news?

DR. LEILA: I used to post, you know, and recommend certain people on social media, and I still feel like those people are, you know, contributing to the conversation, but now I see more and more how it is, again, a very limited picture of Iran. So yes, people, by all means, they can go and follow those people, but if they really want to see the true Iran, they would probably need to learn the language so that they can actually see content by Iranians in Iran. Because there's actually somebody—and I was on his podcast in Iran. I had, you know, it was in Persian. They do add sometimes subtitles in English, and he is interviewing people in Iran. He calls it like the Room of War, like kind of, you know, he started this podcast during the war, and he started talking to Iranians in diaspora. And, you know, I think the only way to really get to know Iran is to listen to the ordinary Iranians in Iran. So unfortunately, there isn't one place I could, you know, point people to, but I would tell people: learn more about oppression. I think that is where we can get, you know, changing our own mindset and the way we learn more, being critical. Like, you know, I always talk about, you know, Frantz Fanon, obviously, and Paulo Freire and Edward Said. You know, I know, yeah, Edward was not perfect—Orientalism—but these books, I always go back to them myself because it contains so much, so much information, knowledge, how to start thinking differently, asking different questions. So, it's not about what you read or hear. It's about what questions do you ask when you read those newspapers and those posts? Are you just going to say, okay, yes, yes? Or are you going to just start asking questions? And, hmm, what is missing from this paper? What is, you know, what else? Oh, they didn't mention that number. Where is that number coming from? So, it is really about how you consume knowledge and information.

DALAL: Thank you very much, Dr. Leila. Always a pleasure having you on the Vegans for Palestine podcast, and I can't wait to have you again and talk about more updates, and wishing you the very best always.

DR. LEILA: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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TIKTOKER 2: And another thing, please stop saying, "I stand with Israel." Just call it what it is. I stand with genocide. Everyone knows if you say, "I stand with Israel," that means you stand with ethnic cleansing, genocide, war, killing children. That's all it is.