Lawyers Without Billboards
Real lawyers, real talk—without the billboards. Lawyers Without Billboards is an unfiltered look at family law, hosted by the partners of Shewmaker & Lewis: Steve and Patty Shewmaker, and Jimmy and Alexa Lewis.
With decades of experience in divorce, custody battles, child support, alimony, and criminal law, they break down legal myths, share expert insights, and dive into real cases (sometimes with a side of humor).
Expect candid conversations, legal deep dives, and the occasional sidebar on pop culture, legal movies, and life as family law attorneys. Whether you're navigating a family law issue, practicing law yourself, or just enjoy courtroom drama, this podcast offers valuable insights with a dose of levity.
New episodes every two weeks
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Lawyers Without Billboards
QDRO Nightmares: Divorce Retirement Mistakes to Avoid | Lawyers Without Billboards S2-Ep22
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Retirement accounts can become one of the most confusing and expensive parts of a divorce… especially when QDROs are involved.
In this episode of Lawyers Without Billboards, the team at Shewmaker & Lewis dives deep into the world of QDROs (Qualified Domestic Relations Orders), retirement account divisions, pensions, gains and losses, plan administrator headaches, and the costly mistakes attorneys and divorcing parties make all the time.
Jimmy, Patty, and Alexa break down practical QDRO “practice points” that can save people thousands of dollars and months of frustration, while Steve provides comic relief and repeatedly declares this “the most boring podcast ever.” 😄
From pre-approval mistakes to undividable retirement plans, delayed QDRO disasters, and confusion over gains and losses, this episode is packed with real-world insights for anyone navigating divorce and retirement division issues.
🎧 Whether you're divorcing, practicing family law, or just enjoy hearing Steve slowly unravel during technical legal discussions, this episode delivers.
⏱️ Chapters
00:00 – Welcome to Lawyers Without Billboards
01:06 – What are QDRO practice points?
02:44 – Why pre-approval matters
05:41 – Understanding model language
09:21 – Retirement plans that cannot be divided
10:50 – Gains and losses explained
15:17 – Problems with old valuation dates
17:17 – Why lawyers aren’t financial planners
20:35 – Doing your homework during discovery
23:22 – “Troublemaking provisions” to avoid
24:15 – Why parties should always review QDROs
26:30 – Steve declares this the “worst podcast ever”
27:29 – Closing thoughts
🔔 Subscribe for candid conversations about family law, relationships, and the legal system - without the billboards.
🎙️ Hosts: Steve & Patty Shewmaker, Jimmy & Alexa Lewis
🎧 Watch here:https://youtu.be/NcprnTFIObQ or listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and more.
📩 Contact: pshewmaker@shewmakerandlewis.com
| (770) 939-1939
🌐 Website: https://www.shewmakerandlewis.com
🎧 Podcast Library: https://shewmakerandlewis.com/lawyers-without-billboards
🎼 Music by Ben Hernandez – Dragonsong Productions
🎥 Produced by: Bleeding Edge, Inc.
🎬 Audio & Video Production: Rob Burgner
📍 Recorded at: Shewmaker & Lewis, Atlanta, GA
Welcome to Lawyers Without Billboards, where we break down family law and other areas of the law.
No gimmicks, no legal jargon, just real unfiltered talk from real lawyers.
Every episode they tackle the legal questions that matter most.
divorce, custody, child support, alimony, and everything in between.
No, it's been how many episodes now?
21 episodes, still no billboards.
You got a billboard in your wood shop?
None of these things are true.
So what are we talking about today?
We are talking about quadro practice points.
Do we want to let them leave and we'll just run?
No, we'll just sit here and be quiet.
and talk about Quadros and things, practice pointers.
A little known fact that I've seen the movie Revenge of the Nerds like over 150 times.
You had to see it at over 150 times.
Are you telling us you were assigned to that theater?
They were like, yeah, you're the guy.
You just watched the Revenge of the Nerds.
Patty, I meant to have our books sitting up here.
Oh yeah, you should have them just, you know, it's fine.
So what's the first, what's the first practice pointer that people should?
Pre-approval, that you should always send your quadros in for pre-approval.
How do you have a headache on the back end?
I just don't understand what you're trying to say.
Steve doesn't understand figures of speech.
So when don't you send it in for pre-approval?
Well, if you're doing one, like Alexa said, fidelity.
If you're just doing one through their website, you're not going.
They're using their other little form, yeah.
Click, click, they require you to use or they charge you more money.
Except that's only when they're the plan administrator.
They can have it at Fidelity, but not be the plan administrator.
And you may not need to do that every single time.
And there's nothing more embarrassing than the Quadro being rejected.
So better to know that up front, that they have issues with it than on the back end.
Yeah, because nobody wants to have to someone amended.
Particularly if you were hired just to do the Quadro.
Like I want to try to get this thing done as quickly as possible.
Have 100% had that and I'm okay.
Can't recall any times where it has gotten rejected, but yes, thank you.
We're talking about Quadros, right?
All right, we'll get a cup of coffee after this episode.
And I don't even drink coffee.
You just want to look at it, you're just going.
All right, the next practice point hurt to me.
Do you guys use model language?
Whenever I'm talking to a model, I have certain phrases I use, model language.
Do you use big words or avoid big words?
No, I a couple times I've been talking to like cheerleaders from Harvard.
then you can use the bigger one.
That would be cheerleader language, not model language.
Does your inflection change when you talk to cheerleaders?
Well, I guess evidently you need to define or describe what model language is.
Normally it's just seven or eight paragraphs that for them, those have to be included.
Do you guys ever just fill out the model language and that's it?
Now, do I read the model language?
Because sometimes there's some weird ones out there.
They have the model language for each.
Well, and here, this kind of goes back a little bit to the first point of pre-approval.
You just need to send it to us first to make sure that it's doable.
And I've had some where attorneys have called me and they're like, hey,
here's how we did the settlement agreement.
And I'm like, I don't think there's any shot in hell that this plan will approve that.
But if you submit it for pre-approval, and they're like, oh, yeah, no, we can make that work.
You gave us all of the permit information, so we can run that.
And some plan administrators will accept that and others won't.
Either a percentage or a dollar amount, that's it.
And if we can't just basically type in on our end value as of this date, no, we're not doing it.
Or percentage as of this date.
How many practice points are there?
I'm just trying to get my expectations framed probably.
So you just lay your head down.
We're not going to be a third of the way through.
Just lay your head down and be quiet.
Do not agree or try to divide undividable plans.
And then the divorce is over, they send it to us, and then we're like, wait a second, can't do that.
And then we're contacting the attorney saying,
Yeah, and so basically the practice point is do your homework about plans that your client has.
But that's another thing is if you're not sure,
You can just call and ask us, like, hey, are you familiar with this plan?
Or, hey, do you know if this plan is divisible?
And then, if we've seen it before, we can probably answer that question.
They can listen to this past weeks or earlier.
They're headed to their own case of malpractice.
Practice point #4, gains and losses.
Then we get questions all the time.
They're like, well, why wasn't this included?
Well, you didn't include it in the settlement agreement.
The- You might have meant a lot of things.
Some will specifically say, yeah, it's going to be included.
And some will say, if it doesn't-.
If you have evaluation date, of course.
Yeah, if it doesn't include it, then we're not putting it in there.
And what's also interesting to me is the number of people who don't understand gains and losses.
Well, okay, so I have a 401k, we divorce, and you get 50% as of the date of the divorce.
So the plan administrator is not going to get this quadro on the date of the divorce.
They're going to get it, you know, 30, 60, 90 days after the fact.
And they're going to calculate your portion.
on the day of the divorce, and let's say it's $100,000.
And let's say you're supposed to get gains and losses attributable to that.
And vice versa, let's say the market's down and the market's lost 5,000, so you get the 95,000.
If you don't get the gains and losses, you know, if it specifically says no gains and losses,
then if the market goes up, that $5,000, I get.
But that was the market experience on your portion.
So it's just interesting that the people who don't understand that.
So you're talking about between the time of the.
Valuation and the date of segregation.
And what's the date of valuation?
Whatever you tell the planet is, usually it's a date of.
And once it's data segregation.
Once that's when the plan administrator actually separates it into two.
So you can't control the data segregation.
You can only control the data evaluation.
So that's what people don't understand.
Right, And the gains and losses and what that means.
You know, everybody's like, Oh no, she shouldn't get gains and losses.
Can I get gains but not losses?
Tell me when to take the good with the bad.
No, I don't, they don't, they don't.
Yeah, it's either one or the other.
But what happens sometimes is when people do a flat dollar figure.
Why not the order specifically says I'm supposed to get this amount?
Like, well, but it was also that amount as of this day.
Keep people's expectations where they should be.
Yeah, I thought about it, but you know, I had other things to do.
Oh, I did one that was 20 years.
We got to figure it out, but it was a whole mess.
Like, Well, it's written in your agreement that you don't.
I mean, you should have done this 20 years ago like that.
I didn't do anything 10 years ago when you got divorced.
So why should you get the market gains on something that's not really yours?
You can sometimes have dates that they're technically will not.
Yeah, and usually you run into that problem if you're like backdating.
And so that's where you run into trouble.
You all remember the gong show from the 70s.
You ever seen it like on YouTube?
We need to get a big *** gong in here.
Just hold it right next to your ear.
You'll stop interrupting, Jimmy.
I get it a shocking amount of times and I just say,
Right, Or they start asking you, like, where should they put it?
the tax implications, all this stuff.
And I'm like, look, this is what's going to happen.
Or they start providing me with account information.
That's like, I don't want your account information.
They're like, this is where this is.
Here's the account where I want the money.
Don't tell me because I'm not the one moving the money.
And I don't need your account information.
We need some smelling salts for you.
I see, I guess you're not nerding out with us.
This is the most boring podcast.
No, you said the child support adjustment one.
Years ago who he paid us and then he was like, so when are you going to transfer my money?
So we got laughter for the people.
And I was like, well, if you think
And I had a guy one time who he was the participant and
His ex-wife was getting a lot of money and he was like, Well, how will I know when it's done?
And he just kind of started laughing.
And he was like, that's just such a horrible way to look at it.
And I kind of laughed and I was like, yeah, well, sorry.
It's kind of like, how do you know a check clears your account?
Okay, you're looking at your account and you're like, oh, look, there it is.
And I said the same thing to a guy like 2 weeks later.
dead silent for like 5 seconds.
He was like, you think this is funny?
dude, that's just the reality of the situation.
That's usually when I break in and say to the guy, but she did have to see you naked.
And then most of them are like, yeah.
Yeah, you make a good point, Steve.
that guy was not a nice human.
Practice point #7 is do your homework during the discovery process and the divorce.
Especially when we're talking about pensions.
And also, if you're going to contact them, let them know there is a divorce pending.
And learn what the plan can do and can't do.
And I'm like, neat, over what period of time for what end payments?
And they're like, no, I get that as a lump sum.
Yeah, I had a former client call me this past week
And she's like, I'm tired of getting this monthly payment.
Is there any way I can get it lump sum?
Okay, to your point, what you said, depending on who you're representing,
Should you request certain things and should you submit certain things to the plan administrator?
Because we finally got his information.
So of course, we learned way late in the game that he'd been doing this.
So provided a letter directly to the financial institution.
And now he's complaining to the judge that they issued a quadro.
We just informed your financial institution.
Now, how far back do you guys request on retirement statements?
Oh, y'all really didn't explore that one at all?
I mean, do you want to know what it depends on or?
I mean, I'm not going to request five years of statements on a one-year marriage.
using troublemaking provisions.
Don't use fighting words in your quadros.
See, I'm just trying to make this entertaining, man.
I wouldn't trouble making provisions asking for a lump sum matter pension.
You're standing in between us and #9.
Practice point #9 is always allow for parties and or attorneys to review and approve the card.
Oh, yes, And I make, especially, I almost always make the parties sign.
Very rarely are we not doing that.
They told us to go pound sand.
And by the way, they're copied on this e-mail, so here you go.
And they're copied here, and here's where
It all is perfectly in line with the settlement agreement.
Yeah, please sign, Kay, thanks.
And most judges are like, yep, cool, no problem.
But I think that is, I think that's a good CYA for attorneys and judges, frankly.
Especially if you've got that deep on the paper trail.
Well, and especially when we're entering quadros and this happens A lot.
I mean, when I do a quadro, I would prefer it to be like
with the divorce or right after the divorce is entered.
I don't like it when I'm getting contacted.
A year later, two years later, three years later.
I talked to a lady earlier today, January 2019.
have it signed, submit it, submit it to the plan, you're done.
And then now you're hunting down parties and things like that.
Oh, and hopefully nothing's changed.
Which is usually not the case.
In closing, I would like to have more podcasts about Quadros because he barely talks.
You want to close this out then?
You told me it was the parenting time adjustment.
People are interested in this stuff.
You can play a little bit real fast.
Dancing elephants or something.
Hey, for those that like to nerd out with me and Jimmy, peace out, Girl Scouts.
That's it for this episode of Lawyers Without Billboards.
For more resources or to get in touch with us, visit shoemakerandlewis.com.
Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.