Athena Strand’s Killer Speaks, a Wrongful Death Lawsuit Grows, and the Jesse Butler Ruling Sparks Outrage

Seven cases. Seven timelines. Seven families still fighting for answers. In this gripping episode of The Last Clue, Kyle and Beth break down some of the most shocking and emotionally charged true‑crime stories unfolding right now across the United States.

We begin with the cold case of Cindy Wanner, finally seeing movement after a stunning arrest in California. Then we turn to the Josh Davis hit‑and‑run, where a police officer has been named a person of interest more than two decades later—raising disturbing questions about potential cover‑ups and long‑buried evidence.

Next, we examine the heartbreaking disappearance of 2‑year‑old Genesis Reid, whose case has led investigators to launch an extensive landfill search. We also cover the Goodwill stabbing involving Madison Hinchey, a random act of violence that shattered a community’s sense of safety.

In our extended segments, we revisit the murder of Athena Strand, where her killer now claims he made a “deal with the devil.” We discuss into the wrongful death lawsuit of Jozsef Pal, exploring police accountability and Oklahoma law. And finally, we unpack the controversial ruling in the Jesse Mack Butler case, where a judge declared that victims’ rights were not violated—despite public outrage.

This episode blends deep‑dive storytelling with raw, unfiltered commentary in our signature Clueless segment, where we push every case to the edge and ask the questions no one else will.

If you’re drawn to cold case breakthroughs, police accountability, missing children, and the pursuit of justice in a flawed system, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
Join the investigation. Share your theories. And help us search for the last clue.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:33

The last clue is a production of Smith Media Team LLC. If you have any information about a case or cases, please email us at info at SmithMedia Team LLC.com. Listener discretion is advised. Some content may be upsetting to listeners.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Right now we're updating seven cases, each one different, each one disturbing, and each one still demanding answers. We've got a California cold case that finally sees an arrest after 44 years. A 22-year-old hint and run that now points to a police officer and a possible cover-up. A missing toddler whose disappearance has led investigators to a landfill. A random stabbing inside a goodwill store.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Oh my.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

I need that shirt. A child murdered by a delivery driver who now claims he made, quote, a deal with the devil.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

He is the devil.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

A wrongful death lawsuit raising questions about police conduct. And a controversial Oklahoma case where a judge ruled victim's rights were not violated despite public outrage. Seven stories, seven timelines, seven families still searching for truth. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Before we get into it, we do want to welcome our new listeners and subscribers from Arapaho, Oklahoma, Candor, New York, Kitchener, Ontario, and Tokyo. Tune in Tokyo. Go go Godzilla.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Whoever's listening in Tokyo or listeners, tell your friends. And Domaroigato.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Wherever you're listening from tonight, thank you for being part of this community. You can follow The Last Clue wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, and many more. You can also follow us on Facebook, TikTok, and for exclusive content.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Exclusive.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Subscribe on BuzzSprout.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Let's start with the murder of Cindy Warner. This is a case out of Reading, California. She was a young mother who vanished from her California home and was found dead just weeks later. But now investigators say a cold case has finally been cracked thanks to advances in DNA technology and also facial recognition.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Cindy was kidnapped in 1991, murdered the same year, and this had gone unsolved for well over 35 years.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Wow. That's some of these cold cases are just fascinating. I mean that just it's just so disheartening with as long as they take to solve. And then you see things like this that come up. And with the the advances in technology, it's just it's it's amazing. It's amazing what happens when you dig back into these cases with advancements in technology.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Last month, James Lawhead Jr., who is now 76 years old, was arrested. He was the former neighbor of Cindy and had long been considered a possible subject, but without modern forensic tools, the case stalled. Now, this case was cold cold, cold, until around 2023. And then the let's just say the evidence was re-examined, which it should have been well before, but because of the new advancements, they took a look at the old evidence. And again, just last month, Lawhead was arrested. Investigators say new DNA technology and a re-evaluation of witness statements helped connect Lawhead to this crime.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

That just goes to show that if you see something, say something. At some point, somebody's memory is going to be jogged. Somebody's going to say something that makes a difference.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Well, the difference is he's now facing murder charges more than four decades after Cindy's death. Now, the question that we have for questions that we have for our listeners is why did this take so long? Why did it take 44 years to retest this evidence? Yeah. How many other cold cases could be solved if resources were prioritized?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Oh, I could go into a whole podcast on that.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

And what does justice look like when the suspect has lived an entire life while the victim never got a chance?

SPEAKER_02 5:02

That's gonna be hot button, I think.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

So to our listeners, what do you think about this cold case that is now potentially on the verge of being completely solved? Is it justice delayed? And if it is justice delayed, is justice still served?

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, is it justice delayed? Is it justice denied? Tell us, let us know. Next is the hit and run of Josh Davis, a cop, a cover-up, and 22 years of silence. Back in the early 2000s, Josh Davis was struck and killed in a hit and run in North Carolina. The case went cold almost immediately.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Which just floors me.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

The a hit and run, and all of a sudden the case just Yeah, this kind of it's kind of odd, but uh a lot of them are. There were no arrests, no suspects, no closure.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

And now, over two decades later, it seems like everything has changed.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

I yeah, it it has, because I believe he was with a friend at the time and the friend had turned around and left, so cold, no witnesses. But according to MSN and the Daily Mail, a police officer identified as Megan Potter has been named as a person of interest in Josh's death. Potter was reportedly driving a vehicle matching the description of the one that hit Josh. And witnesses from the time have come forward saying they always suspected law enforcement involvement.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

And now this goes back a little bit to where you said see something, say something. You've got witnesses in the story that they always suspected law enforcement, but did they actually say anything? Did they go to law enforcement or were they terrified to go and report it, even though they had a strong suspicion that it was this cop all along? That's a great question. And you've got cops investigating this. Did did nobody nobody on that force decided to go, hey, don't you drive this type of vehicle? Did you did you just have your windshield replaced? I mean, and and I'm not making light of it. It it's these are valid questions. This is I mean, this is honestly if the if this case comes to fruition the way it's being presented to us now, then the whole police force at the time was culpable for this.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

If if if they knew, absolutely. And that poses a great question. If if there's a crime committed and you know, no, I'm not saying think, if you know law enforcement was evolved, do you come forward? Or are you afraid?

SPEAKER_00 7:44

I think you have to. I I think uh for me, I think you bring it to that law enforcement one time, you take it to that law enforcement agency one time. If if nothing happens or if you're placated or whatever, then you go to the next agency that would potentially be over them. For example, here in Oklahoma, if we had a problem, we would go to the local police department. If we felt like it wasn't being dealt with in a timely or what we would feel like a sp uh sufficient manner, then we could go to the sheriff's department or we could go to the OSBI, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, yeah, and and file a complaint.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Listeners, tell us what you think. But here, according to the Daily Mail, the reports are that Potter allegedly admitted she quote unquote may have hit something that night, but claimed she didn't know what it was. The vehicle she drove was reportedly repaired shortly after the incident.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

So I have to ask, the repair shop, you have a hit and run in your town, and this is you know, this is North Carolina. You've got a hit and run in your town, and this car gets repaired. At some point, does the repairman not go, Wow, this looks odd? Ironic. Did the repairmen come forward?

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Maybe they were the ones that came forward at the time, but there's still details coming out. But here in the timeline, I mean, you've got Josh is killed. The case remains unsolved for years, decades. Decades. And then new witnesses come forward. And now Officer Potter is named as a person of interest.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

And I think I think the question from our listeners, and I'm not going to try to put lit questions in the listeners' mouths, but I guess my question would be why did the witnesses take so long to come forward? But you have to look at this from again, from potentially a small law enforcement group. Sure. They may have waited until all of the parties that were involved in that at the time were off the police force. I mean, if you've got a young police officer at 20 some odd years, he the last officer that was involved in this may have just retired, and then they felt comfortable going forward to new administration. You've got new people coming in, you've got new eyes, you've you've got uh hopefully a renewed sense of safety and security with that police. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

So maybe they were investigating or pr, you know, the investigators were protecting one of their own. I mean, things things are things are possible, but this development has shaken the community because when the person who may have caused the death is someone sworn to protect the public, it it fractures that trust.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

It does, and we've seen it time and time again.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Yeah. And questions for the listeners. Did the department knowingly bury evidence? And if the person responsible wore a badge, who holds them accountable?

SPEAKER_00 10:48

But the justice system holds them accountable. Allegedly. It should it should be that way. It should be that way. But just wait, because we've got stories that are going to make you think twice. They're gonna make you think a lot.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yes. So, listeners, what do you think? Should cold cases involving law enforcement be handled by outside agencies?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yes. I I I think that 100%. I think once a a law enforcement agency even suspects that one of their own could potentially be involved in a crime, I think it needs to be turned over to the prop the proper authority, the proper agency above them, the proper investigating agency.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

To take away that conflict of interest?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yes. Okay. Because you I mean, you're you're part of a team. Yes. And there are some people out there when they go to work, they they they say they're part of a family. Yes. And when one of your own is in trouble, you have a tendency as a human being to want to protect. And that's the that's the fine line that law enforcement lives on, shouldn't live on, but but they do. You're hired, you're brought on to protect and serve, but protecting one of your own is not protecting and serving the the general public. You you've let this go on for decades when a young man lost his life and you protected one of your own, allegedly. That's fair. And now a heartbreaking story, the continued search for Genesis Reed. Two-year-old Genesis Reed from Alabama was reported missing around Christmas time. Her disappearance quickly escalated into a large-scale investigation when police announced they would be searching a landfill for her remains.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Oh, that is heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

According to reports, investigators believe Genesis may have been placed in a dumpster that was later transported to a landfill. This is obviously one of the most difficult and, like you said, heartbreaking types of searches law enforcement can undertake. Further reports have the police preparing an extensive, weeks-long search involving heavy machinery, forensic experts, and specialized teams trained for landfill recovery.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

I cannot imagine what all of that entails.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

And with a with a landfill, you've got so much area that you have to try to the best you can whittle it down to an area where you think this child might be. And then you have to you have to look through that entire area.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

And that's that's a that's a two-year-old child. That's a that's a small being in that large of a surface area. This is I'm getting nauseous just thinking about this.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

I mean, and and not to I don't want to take anything away from the story because the story is terrible. It's it again, gut-wrenching, heartbreaking, whatever words you want to throw in here. Oh my god. But have you ever thrown a receipt in your trash can right after you took out the trash? And then days later, a day later, we don't accumulate much trash, it's just the two of us, but uh a few days later you go, oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

I need to return that.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

I I I need that receipt, I have to have it. I've got Coles won't take it otherwise, whatever the case may be, and you have to go find that receipt. We're talking about a trash receptacle that may hold ten pounds, maybe. I mean, if you stuff it yeah with with all kinds of stuff, just going through that is a task within itself. You're talking about square feet, hundreds of thousands of square feet of area. Well, it's let's be clear.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Sorry, let's be clear. We are not comparing a child to a receipt. We are trying to paint the picture of the momentous mountain, mountainous task that is before these people.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

I mean, again, this is going to be a weeks-long search, if not months.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Yes. Oh, this is this is just heartbreaking. When Jenna she went missing in around Christmas in 2024-ish.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yep. And then the evidence, of course, suggested that she may be deceased, and police began the landfill search preparations, and then the search will begin.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

It's a massive undertaking.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

And there's another part of the story, unfortunately. I I hate to harp on this, but Adrienne Reed, Genesis' mother, was arrested in March, and she's facing a capital murder charge and abuse of a corpse in connection with her daughter's death.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Good. Sorry, that's the mom in me. That's the mom and me saying, good.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

I mean, this this is really tough to say, but authorities obtained surveillance video that shows Adrienne Reed tossing a duffel bag that they believe contained Genesis' body into a dumpster just before midnight on Christmas Day.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Oh, that's a disturbing piece of gum on the bottom of my shoe.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

And two days later, the camera also captured Reed going back to the same dumpster carrying toys and other items that police think belong to the child. Why?

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Why? Why?

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Guilt.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Why?

SPEAKER_00 16:44

She wanted to get rid of anything that reminded her of her child because of what she did.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

I know, but why are you doing this? I will I will never understand why people do this to child when there's so many people out there that want children and can't have them.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

And now you've got I'm getting angry. You've got law enforcement authorities, all of these officials that are basically looking at a 200 feet by 100 feet patch of area in a landfill that could be eight to ten feet deep in trash, in refuse. This is all when somebody could have done the right thing and just said, I need, I need help. I've done something, make a call, I'm not okay, something's going on. There's there's uh there's a million different things you could have done.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

A million. First one could have been call somebody and say, Hey, can you come take Genesis? I need I need help.

unknown 17:37

God.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

The video's very strong evidence that is specifically pointing to this location. I've got to give law enforcement credit. I don't know how in the world they would have figured that out.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

But the the questions in this particular story are very heavy. How does a toddler end up in a landfill? A piece of bad word mother. What happened in those hours before she disappeared? And will investigators find what they're looking for, or will this become another case where answers remain buried? Listeners, what do you think? Should landfill searches be mandatory when evidence suggests that a child may be there. Next up we have I don't even know how you're gonna do this after that.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Very carefully, very carefully.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

This is this is pretty easily the wildest story of this past week or so.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

The goodwill stabbing.

unknown 18:37

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

The case of Madison Hinsie.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

The the goodwill stabbing, let's be clear. That's that's goodwill where you go to buy secondhand items. It wasn't a goodwill stabbing. A stabbing out of goodwill. Hey, boop, yeah, you're my friend.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Take this. Sucker. In Kentucky, a woman named Madison Hinshey has been charged with attempted murder after allegedly stabbing another shopper inside a goodwill store.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

I've seen people in a goodwill store that thought they were gonna stab me.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

I that's this is why I walk away from you because I don't want to be the person looking at you like that.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

You reach for a shirt or something like that. That's it's terrifying when you get in that same aisle.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Especially on those, you know, pink tag sale days.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Gotta be careful with those.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

You do.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

The red tag sale with this one.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Well, according to local reports, the attack was unprovoked. Unprovoked. A stabbing. In goodwill.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Unprovoked.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Yeah. Well, surveillance footage showed Hinchy reportedly approaching the victim and stabbing her in the neck. Didn't even try the arm or the leg.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

She just went straight.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

How about excuse me? Excuse me? Yeah. Excuse me. Just right right to the neck. The victim survived, but the randomness of the attack has left the community speechless and shaken.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

This was April.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

It was in April. The attack occurred inside the Goodwill. And then immediately after, Hinshi is arrested, and charges have been filed, but the investigation is ongoing. Now, random acts of violence like this are terrifying because they shatter the illusion of safety in everyday places like your thrift stores, your grocery stores, parking lots. You can't go to Goodwill. I like Goodwill. And I'm going to be slightly terrified to go in in the future. I I like Goodwill, but I don't want to be reaching for something, and you shank me.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Oh, by the way, she also, Henchy, let's be clear. She also hit an employee with a shovel.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

I remember that. I thought there was another part to that, but I thought I might be confusing another case.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

No, the the employee was trying to assist with the stabbing, and she whacked him with a shovel.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

So this also is going to beg the question are it are goodwills going to stop taking tools?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

There's a bunch of tools in Goodwill that can be taken two ways. It can be. Did you also hear that Henchy told officers that the victim quote got what she came for, according to the police? Wait, what? Got what she came for.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

So the victim got what she came for. So she for victim blaming, first of all.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

This, I mean, with the with the quote given, unless the quote was, you know, misquoted, it sounds like that she came into the store to get something. It's kind of what we made light of earlier. Let's just let's just take a shirt, for example. It sounds like the victim took a shirt off the rack to buy it, and this lady came into the store and saw the other person with that shirt in hand and said, Oh no, that's mine. The victim got What she came for. Again, if if that's the quote the police have out there, that makes me believe that this potentially was about a singular item in that goodwill store. Because there's no other I mean, if you say she got what came to her, then there's all different types of what that this could be a love triangle, this could be, you know, that this could be a high school feud that has just boiled over. This could be a a lot of other things, but the quote got what she came for. The victim got what she came for. I don't even know where to go with this one. That that tells me that potentially this was over a singular item in that goodwill store.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Well, I'm changing her name from Henchy to Henchman. I don't know what's going on here, but I am not going to Goodwill in Kentucky. So here's some questions on this one. Was this a mental illness?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yes, yes. If you're gonna walk into a store and stab somebody in the neck, that is that is a mental illness, whether small, large, or somewhere in between. There's there is a mental health problem involved in this.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Okay. Well, so was it targeted but misrepresented?

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Or was it truly random? It's gonna depend, honestly, what what she ends up telling law enforcement. I need more information. She's gonna have to tell the story at some point.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

I need more information. Kentucky listeners, if you have any further information on this, please reach out to us. Info at smithmedia teamlc.com. Or uh you can message us on Facebook. I would really like to know what you have heard about this. I would really like to know.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Athena Strand and the Devil's Deal Claim. So we've heard ad nauseum. If you turn on a TV, you're gonna hear the story of Athena Strand. It's not something we've we we've covered it in the podcast, but we haven't dove into it because it's more of a national story.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

But this is a seven-year-old girl that was kidnapped and murdered by a FedEx contract driver named Tanner Horner. This has been all over court TV, been all over the news, it's been everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Tanner Horror.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

He later pleaded guilty. And now, according to the New York Post, Horner is claiming that he made, quote, a deal with the devil, end quote, before killing Athena. Obviously, this claim has outraged a lot of the public and and unfortunately devastated her family all over again. They're they're having to live this nightmare every single day as long as this is in court.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Her mom, her mom, Maitland, man, that is one strong woman. She's bad word incoming, but in a good way. She is a badass.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah. My hat's off to you. I I don't I don't know if I could live through something like that.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Mama Gandhi, props to you.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

So this was December a few years back when Athena disappeared, and then her body was found two days later. And then the investigation started, and then we went into priest trial proceedings. Tanner Horner was arrested. There's a lot of evidence. You don't have to look very far. There's a there's a still photo that is very triggering of Tanner Horner driving the FedEx truck with little seven-year-old Athena Strand in the back. And now we have this mofo. I I don't even know how to begin with this guy.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

He he doesn't know what the truth is.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

So in court, he's claimed that he made a deal with the devil when he murdered Athena Strand. And this was told to the jury in court. He is a confessed child murderer. And compare now, this is a guy we've gone over this in previous podcast in our previous podcast, but this is a guy who hasn't told the same story twice. Nope. He still he still does not know the story that he is currently telling.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

He does not. I sometimes wonder if his ass believes the shit coming out of his mouth.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

He has compared his crimes to a 2017 movie called American Satan, in which a rock band commits human sacrifices as part of a pact with a demonic entity to achieve fame and success. And this is all according to forensic psychiatrist Dr. Eileen Ryan.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Well, I I love rock music, I love hard rock music, I love heavy metal, I love what some people call Screamo. Not one time have I committed murder. That's a fact by listening to music or watching movies.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

She said, among other things, quote, in his mind he believed that by taking Athena's life, he was saving his own life and career.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

That so coveted career as a FedEx truck driver. Now I'm not knocking the FedEx truck drivers at all. I love them. They bring us packages and they follow instructions. They're on time, great. But saving your life and career.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

She also added, quote, he felt that if he didn't do this, his world would end, his job would be gone, and he would be ruined. End quote. News flash. You're ruined. I again I I hate to say this. I hate to say this about another human being, but I hope he's put in general population. That's where he belongs. He belongs in general population. There are plenty of people that would love to have a discussion with him about what he did. Now he won't be. No, he's too he's too high profile of a name now. He's I mean, I guess in a way, if he wants to can consider this a win, he's achieved fame and fortune. It's more infamy.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yes. Oh, some of the comments on Facebook on our article about this, some of them were beautiful. There, we had a commenter that said, We do things big in Texas, just leave them here. Something to that effect. Somebody called for castration on the courthouse front steps.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

And that's honestly, that that's gonna be the most dangerous spot. They are going to have to keep him under shield at the Tarrant County Courthouse because Yeah, he'll be fine. Yeah. If if he if he sees sunshine with sarcasm. If he sees sunshine from the courtroom to the vehicle that he's gonna be transported in, it's gonna be the light or from the flames of hell. I mean, this could this could literally be over at any second. Yep, I agree. Not for Athena Strands family. No, that for him be over for her family. He has I'm gonna say allegedly, I'm sorry. I'm gonna say allegedly, he's been diagnosed with Asperger's, ADHD, and bipolar, but even then authorities have said that that was not the cause of these heinous crimes. They are saying that this was a rigid black and white thinking where only two options were Athena's death or his life being ruined.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Well, he achieved both.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

He absolutely did.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Dumb fudge nugget.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

So I'm gonna say this this supernatural influence that we're calling it. This is a classic tactic used by offenders seeking to deflect responsibility, which is what he's done this entire time. He started out. And let's just say started. I'm sure there are things that are going to come out in his past, and and some already have. But this stuff is all going to start coming out over time. But he has deflected responsibility from the moment he chose to murder Athena Strand. He has deflected responsibility time and time and time and time again. But it also raises questions about mental health evaluations, about manipulation, and about the ethics of allowing offenders to make public statements that re-traumatize families. In my opinion, he should shut the f up. He shouldn't be allowed. He lost the right to talk when he decided to take the life of a seven-year-old girl. He lost his right to speak. This should sew his mouth shut, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

I like opinions and I'd love to hear everybody else's.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Oh, we're gonna get them.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

I am listening and reading.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

So, listeners, why is Tanner Horner being allowed to speak publicly? Should offenders lose the right to make sensational claims after conviction. After conviction. And I don't really feel like there's an answer to this, but I would love to hear some commentary. How do families heal when the person responsible keeps reopening the wound?

SPEAKER_02 31:37

That's yeah, that's a that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

There's a judge in Terrant County that could close that down right now. He could literally say, I don't want to hear another word out of that guy. It's my courtroom. I don't want to hear him speak again, ever, in the history of ever, should convicted killers be barred from making public statements. And I say convicted killers should convicted killers be barred from making public statements. And I want to tag something else on this too. This is something that I personally feel I I very much have an opinion on this. And this may be part of Clueless.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Should convicted killers be allowed to profit from their statements? Should they be able to write books? Should they be able to sell art? Should they be able to do any of these things that would generate any type of income? Now I would hope that that income does not go to them in any way, shape, or form. It shouldn't even go to commissary.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

It's like a restitution kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah. Oh yeah. If if you need a cigarette in prison, they'll they'll show you what to do. But that that money should they should never a convicted murderer, a convicted killer should never see a dime of that money. Not a dime. Not their families, not their kids, not their grandkids, not their pets, nothing. They shouldn't see a dime of that. If they end up behind on their mortgage and lose their house, you made that choice.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

What do you think, listeners? Should convicted killers be barred from making public statements, and should they be able to profit in any way, shape, or form, whether it's a book deal, a TV deal, a movie deal, again, selling art, selling personalized letters, anything, should they be able to profit?

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Now back in Oklahoma, the family of Joseph Powell has filed a wrongful death lawsuit after he died during an encounter with law enforcement and other entities.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

And you can follow up on that entire case. Yes. Um we we devoted our entire season two to the Joe Powell case, and we had an update as well. So if you want to go back and listen to the catalog, you can update yourself on the entire case.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Yes. According to sources, the lawsuit alleges excessive force and negligence. There are several entities involved in this in this case. One of the gentlemen involved in the case in the lawsuit, Land and Seacrist, was dismissed from the civil lawsuit without prejudice. So he can be recalled to this case at the time, which just leads me to believe that there's a bigger fish to fry with going towards the city of Norman. Under Oklahoma law, a dismissal without prejudice allows plaintiffs to refile claims within the statute of limitations. It does not clear Landon, it simply removes him from the case temporarily.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

And just to update you on this case, give you a very brief rundown, Joe Powell's a student on campus. He had left a couple of establishments down in an area called Campus Corner. He walked back. There, you know, depends on whose story you listen to, but he allegedly walked up, tried to open a door, or asked for a ride, again, depending on who you believe. Three men got out. One of them being Landon.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Two of them actually being Landon. We've got two Landons in the case. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

There was a there was an altercation, and there was one punch thrown that hit Joe, and he landed on the concrete, and several days later he was deceased.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

He was. And we even showed the body cam footage from the interactions with the suspects and from law enforcement. So you will see why the city of Norman is involved in this because of officer negligence.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

And you can make your own Absolutely make your own asertations and let us know. Yeah. Because you can you can see everything. It's it's from City of Norman body cam.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Absolutely. So this case is moving forward and still under the lawsuit phase, but this case still raises questions about police accountability, transparency, and the difficulty families face when seeking justice through the civil courts.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

And just of note, during our coverage of this case, we were told by the city of Norman that none of the officers faced any disciplinary charges. They did not.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

We even questioned higher up to find out any further information that may come of this or what may happen. And crickets.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

And that's all that's all with the court now.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

It is all with the court now. So some of the questions that came up were why was Secrets dismissed? And I believe it's just he's he's one of the three parties that was involved in the altercation. And honestly, I just bigger fish to fry right now. And but will he be added back later?

SPEAKER_00 36:59

I honestly I think that depends on whether he has any kind of had any kind of evidence on his phone, which we were told that the city of Norman. I don't think they've used the word confiscated, but we were told that the phones were looked at.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

They were looked at. But how do families fight a system designed to protect law enforcement? That's that's that's a tough question here. But we will be following up on this one and let you know of any further developments. And if as you remember, we broke the news of the lawsuit here on the last clue. So, listeners, what do you think? Should civil lawsuits involving police be handled by independent investigators? And I think we addressed this earlier, and I'm pretty certain you still feel the same way here.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

My question is was OSBI ever involved? Because we asked that question to the OSBI. How how does how does a case get submitted to the OSBI and it has to be submitted by that law enforcement agency? It was kind of a confusing answer, but what we gathered was it has to be submitted by that law enforcement agency. Did anyone at that police department have the courage to say this doesn't seem right and reach out to OSBI? I would like to see those communications myself.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

That's what I would have asked for.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Instead of our communications, but be that as it may. Hey, we we're we're open books here. And transparency. You've got everything we've got.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

And we well, except for a case file. We only got three pages of that.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Yeah, the uh Norman Police Department was so forthcoming. City of Norman, gotta love it.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Then a quiet clock, name on a page. Filed and forgot someone's whole life. Trapped in a footnote.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

And now another case out of Oklahoma. This time, a much more familiar name. We go to Jesse Mack Butler, who whose case has been, for lack of a better term, a lightning rod for controversy, especially in the Sooner State. Butler was accused of serious crimes, and many believe that the victims' rights were violated during the legal process.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Serious crimes.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

He was he was tagged for a lot.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Yes. Rape, rape with instrumentation. There's a laundry list of charges against him. Laundry list. Keep in mind, Jesse McButler, 17 at the time.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

So and also keep in mind in July of 2025, he had been offered a plea agreement changing his status to that of a youthful offender, which people erupted over.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Because he was convicted and was going to be sentenced for 73 years.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

But long time.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

But not anymore.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

So we have Jesse McButler again facing a myriad of charges. And according to reports, a Payne County, Oklahoma judge has ruled that the victim's rights were not violated. Now, let's look into just for a second for full transparency. One of his victims, I believe, just received a pretty big honor from her high school.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

She did, and we're gonna say her name. We're only gonna say her first name. Sure. But Landry. Landry is valedictorian of her high school. Of her high school.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

So let's take a look at this. We've got Jesse McButler, who has continuously wiggled his way in and out of the judicial system, which has caused outrage that seems to be falling on deaf ears in Payne County, Oklahoma. And one of the people accusing him is the valedictorian of her high school. You would think that her word would carry some merit because you don't get to be valedictorian by doing shady stuff.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah, I would also think the scars on her neck from where he choked her within literally an inch of her life would also hold some weight, considering she had to have surgery to repair said neck.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

And and here we are, we're still arguing about this because there I'm just gonna say it, there's corruption in Payne County.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Oh, there's a yeah, there's corruption in Pain County.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

This if you want to go down a rabbit hole, re read reputable sources, and again, this is something we covered in a prior podcast. There was a lot of information coming out about Jesse McButler from these let's just call them TikTok investigations.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Wannabe True Crime Fighters that were showing pictures and videos that were clearly not Jesse McButler, but they were purporting that that was him committing these acts. They were absolutely not him. 100%. One of them was from a film, and we go into detail about that in a prior podcast.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

One of them was also a convicted rapist or murderer out of California several years ago. That was at least 10 to 15 years older. Right. So completely different case.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Shock journalism at its finest.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Yeah. So now we have a ruling from this court. At this point, just like what we talked about last time, someone with a higher authority has to step in here and go, okay, we need to take a look at this.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

We need to take this out of Payne County.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Payne County certainly has fumbled the ball multiple times. Pardon the pun. Worse than Leon Lett with the Cowboys in the Super Bowl. And here's another victim that's left holding a bag of emotion, a bag of fear. Full-on trauma. Exactly. And this case highlights the tension between prosecute prosecutorial discretion and victims' rights. It also raises questions about transparency, communication, and the power imbalance between victims and the legal system. So for our listeners, especially those who have really been listening and reading about the Jesse Mack Butler case, how do we define victims' rights in a system where prosecutors hold all the power?

SPEAKER_02 43:41

You can't tell me these victims' rights were not violated. You can't. You can't. And if you can, you need to explain it to me like I'm five.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Should victims have more influence over plea deals? And what happens when the public disagrees with the court? Now I will tell you that doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

No, it doesn't. It's it causes mayhem.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

It's not professional wrestling. Where the crowd tells you what to do, but you would think also if you hear enough voices going, Hey, that's wrong, hey, that's wrong, hey, that's wrong, at some point, you have to go, maybe I need to take a step back and and look at what I'm saying and what I'm doing that's affecting people's lives.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

It's we had a conversation earlier, and this very loosely kind of goes back to that, but that saying of if you meet more than two assholes a day, you might be the asshole. So if you talk to more than three people a day that tell you you're wrong, you might be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Who's the common denominator in this? It's certainly from what we've seen, it's certainly not the victims. It is not the victims. So what's the common denominator in this? Is it Jesse McButler or is it the system that is allowing Jesse McButler to get away with this time and time and time again? Are they both at fault? He's clearly he's clearly what he did.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

It's the system and it's the good old boy system. Now, that's another rabbit hole because there's a lot of changes and corruption, like you said, in Payne County. And we're not just given lip service. You can take that to the bank. And now, clueless, our opinion segment.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Cold cases don't solve themselves. They sit until someone decides that they matter again. And that's the problem. Justice shouldn't depend on timing or technology, it should depend on urgency. When a cop becomes a person of interest in a hit and run, trust fractures. Because if the people enforcing the law can break it without consequence, the system collapses from the inside. A toddler in a landfill? That's not just tragedy, that's failure. Failure to protect, failure to intervene, failure to see danger before it became irreversible. A random stabbing and a goodwill? That's the world reminding us that safety is an illusion we cling to because the alternative is too terrifying to accept. Athena Strand's killer claiming a deal with the devil. No, he made a deal with himself. He made a deal to choose violence, to choose cowardice, and to choose evil. Blaming the supernatural is just another way that he's avoiding the mirror he's looking at. A wrongful death lawsuit dismissed without prejudice? No. But one of the people involved is being dismissed. That doesn't mean that he's innocent. That doesn't mean that he won't be back. That's the legal system at this point saying we'll think about the accountability of that person later, and hopefully later comes sooner than it has in other cases. And the Jesse Mack Butler ruling, it tells victims exactly where they stand, behind the prosecutor, behind the defendant, behind a system that was never built for them in the first place. These cases all share one truth. Justice isn't broken, it's working exactly as it's been designed. And that's why it keeps failing the people who need it the most. Listeners, push back on these cases, ask questions, demand answers because silence is the system's favorite accomplice.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

The Last Clue is a production of Smith Media Team LLC. If you have any information regarding a case or cases, please email us at info at smithmedia teamlc.com. You can follow the last clue wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple, Spotify, Amazon, YouTube, iHeart, and many more. And for exclusive content, subscribe on BuzzSprout for just five dollars a month or find us on Buy Mea Coffee. And as always, keep searching for the last clue.