Ep. 58 - From Service to Science with Jose Rojas: Part 2

We sat down with Jose again and got into the stuff most people take but don’t fully understand. Supplements, energy drinks, pre workouts, protein…what actually works and what just sounds good on a label.

We talked through what the research really shows, where context matters more than the product itself, and why something that “works” in one situation might do nothing in another. From energy drinks giving the feeling of energy to protein intake actually changing body composition, we kept coming back to the same idea…most people are looking for shortcuts instead of understanding the basics.

We also got into how people misuse things like pre workouts, why more isn’t better, and how stress, sleep, and nutrition are usually the real drivers behind performance and results.

At the end of the day, it’s less about what you’re taking and more about how you’re living. 

Contact Daniel and Janie:
Email: info@achievethelifestyle.com
Website: achievethelifestyle.com
Instagram: @achievethelifestyle

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Pharmaphobic is powered by Achieve the Lifestyle, a company dedicated to helping you empower your health, redefine your lifestyle, and all for the health of it. You're listening to Pharmaphobic, where we challenge the state of health in America. I'm Jamie, a physician assistant, and I've seen how healthcare keeps people dependent instead of truly healthy.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

And I'm Ben, a veteran term fitness pro here to uncover the truth and explore simple and sustainable health solutions. From big pharma to big food, we're exposing the conflicts of interest, keeping us sick, and finding better ways to take back our health.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

No fluff, no gimmicks, just real talk, real solutions, and a little bit of fun along the way.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Hello there, welcome to another episode of Pharmaphobic, where we help you achieve the strongest, healthiest, and most capable version of yourself. This is brought to you by Achieve the Lifestyle, and I'm here with two special guests. Okay. First one over here to my left, my lovely companion in life.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

I'm a co-host, not a special guest, but this is where we are.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

You're special nonetheless. Okay. And we're back with Jose here. Uh previous episode, we were talking about what led up to his current state in life as a professor of exercise science and a researcher in exercise science and a trainer too. You cover the whole spectrum of the thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yeah, because you're still actively training people.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Still actively training people. Yeah. Trying to get away from it.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Okay. They keep coming back to you though.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Like, why do they want to work with me? Gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Well, no, I was just talking to Maureen. She's like, yeah, I'll only train with Jose.

unknown 1:48

I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Well, I mean, I I think that says a lot too, because that keeps your, you know, you keep your finger on the pulse. Yeah. Um I know you've worked with a lot of pro fighters, boxing and MMA. Um, and then obviously you do research. What led you into research? What was uh the thing you said, you know what? I think I want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

So I think halfway through my well, the director of research for the master's program, you have to at least submit something to a journal. Okay. So I think that was the first step. Like I liked it. It was it was a cool study because it was a study I wanted to do, which was the effects of HMB, beta hydroxy, beta methyl butyrate on the body composition of trained MMA fighters, all from Killcliffe. Um, you know, so I think that was pretty cool because it's fighters, it's supplements. I love both. Um, but during my master's program, I I kind of figured I wanted to be a professor because I like the my professors. I'm like, I kind of want to be like you when I grew up, you know, I was 28. But so I think their guidance, I would say, or mentorship really, really solidified my desire to want to be a researcher and an academic. Right. Um, I love coaching, I love everything, and I've done it for a very long time. I'll still do it here and there, but it's pretty time consuming.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Uh especially with the population that I work with. Um, I used to be a personal trainer, I worked with the general population, but I learned early on in life I don't want to work with the general population. But that's where the money is, realistically. Um but you know, with uh academia and everything, I I can do the coaching that I like without having to worry about like paying the bills, which is which is great. But I can also teach. I enjoy my job very much, so it's not like I'm working. My lectures are actually kind of like this. It's more of a semi-informal discussion with my students. What uh that HMB study, what would you conclude in that? What'd you find? There was no significant changes. Um the intervention time I think was too short. It was just uh six weeks.

SPEAKER_04 3:50

Oh, wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah. Um it was just a quick study that you know Corey had put together and I just finished it for him.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I remember that was really popular back in the day, like the creatine HMB combo. We're talking maybe a little like 10 years ago. It was really popular thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

HMB, I think under better circumstances, is pretty beneficial because HMB is the metabolite of leucine, which is essentially the most important amino acid if you're counting, because it helps improve muscle protein synthesis. Uh leucine metabolizes to HMB. HMB is directly responsible for stimulating the MTOR pathway to improve muscle protein synthesis.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

I always tell people it's the closest thing you can get to a steroid without being a steroid. And even then, it's not even close to what a steroid can be.

unknown 4:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

But, you know, we we did a study on the women's volleyball team. Uh, it was a 10-week study, gave them six grams of beta, not beta, of uh HMB every day, um, and then of a placebo. The intervention group saw a 11% or 13% increase in lean muscle mass, which is which is a lot.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

That's significant.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah, especially for like a woman. That that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, that is a lot. Now, what why, if HMB is a metabolite of leucine intake, what difference does it make to versus taking leucine or inducing, you know, upping your leucine?

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Simply cutting out the middle man. So the amount of leucine you consume does not dictate the amount what metabolize to HMB. So if you can just directly take six grams of HMB, you don't have to guess if your leucine content will give you that amount of countries.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

And what does your body do with excess HMB that it's not able to, you know, attach?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

It's like any other uh vitamin, the abortion rate on on us things are pretty high.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

That's why when you take a bunch of vitamins, you have that highlighted green pea. It's just an expensive cocktail. So yeah, so I mean it's it's pretty benefit. It's really good for the elderly population, I will say. Because psychopenia, like you guys discussed in for my students, is is not a great thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:42

So they need anything to increase muscle proteins as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

We can preserve it, and a lot of them probably won't eat as much. So if we can do the most we can with that you know dietary protein they're taking, then I think that's a win. Well, you know what? I didn't consider that.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Well, that makes sense. Supplementing with HMB when you're older.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Well, yeah, well, because I encourage a lot of older people to do BCAAs, glucines in it, right? But like you said, they still have to metabolize it. And so, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

I'm gonna put that one in the back burner for when I'm 65. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Or maybe because a lot of your client population is above that age, you can make that recommendation.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I think I think the BCA approach is good too, because like for us, taking BCAs, if we eat a balanced diet, is probably like bringing sand to the beach.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Right? But for an elderly population who probably has less consumption, right? They don't really eat as much, didn't move as much. BCAs, just so three amino acids, leucine, valine, iso, and um leucine, baline, and isoleucine are gonna be pretty beneficial.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

I um I did BCAAs prior to um my surgery I had at the end of 2024. I did it leading up to and then after, and then I just stopped because I was like, like you said, yeah, it's bringing sand to the beach, but I was like, I'm getting ready to have surgery. There's gonna be a higher demand, so let me get this in there.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

No, that that's a good little note. I didn't even, you know, HMB is like so old in the fitness space that I was like, you know, you just kind of like, yeah, we did that for a little bit and we don't do it anymore. But that's that's a good excellent point. Like this stuff might work in a certain context, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Those on GLPs, if HMB would have it would help.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Anything that can preserve lean mass would help.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

But I wonder if it's like how much do you need to counteract the effects of the GLP, which is just driving down caloric intake, right? So that's the main thing. But um, is it enough to make an impact, or is it yeah, I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

That's a good question. And obviously, I well, I would think there's any studies specifically observing the use of any kind of GLP plus HMB, but the HMB with again, the earlier caloric restriction, the gastric emptying and everything. Um I don't think the amount of HMB is gonna matter. I think six grams is what the petition stance recommends for optimal uh effects. It all really just comes down to their protein intake.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

You know, um, the mechanism of action of a GLP is never to reduce lean mass, right? That's just an effect of not eating.

SPEAKER_04 8:08

Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

People can see a preservation of lean mass if they stay on top of their macros. But how many people are gonna do that and how many people are taking GLPs because they're too lazy to work out? If you're too lazy to work out, you're probably not gonna catch your macros, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Well, unfortunately, a lot of people, um, and we don't have to go into this because this isn't what we're going to do, but a lot of people are given GLPs when they're already at a caloric deficit and they've just been at a caloric deficit for so long, they're not, they're seeing the ill effects of being at a deficit for so long, and then they're like, but I need to eat less. And it's like, no. But anyway, that's misuse.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

But anyway, so yeah. Um, so you that was your first study. What'd you go? What'd you get into after that? What was it? A lot of energy drink studies. Um I think you've done it, you got anecdotal on the energy drink study, right? You drink them like a strength coach, like a true strength coach.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Um, so yeah, that's been like our bread and butter. Just either companies send us a new product and we'll do research on it, or we'll pick one like Jocko Go and we'll tear it apart if we can.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Do you just consistently find ill effects of them?

SPEAKER_00 9:15

I wouldn't say so much ill effects. I think they overpromise what they what their claims. You know, like again, when we talked at the gym, Jocko Go, I love Jocko Willink. Please don't kill me. He's a great guy. Um, but Jocko Go, it's good clean energy. Well, what does good clean energy mean? Right. If you look at the makeup, there's no carbohydrates in there. So there's no energy. Are there amino acids? Yes, but it still shows up at zero calories because they're negligible. It's not, it's you know, under a gram, if anything. Uh caffeine is the main ingredient in energy drinks. But caffeine doesn't provide energy, it's a perception of energy. Correct. Right? It gives you alertness, gives you focus, your pain threshold increases, so RPE is not going to be lower. Okay. I mean, for lifting, right? A punch to the face will still be a punch to the face.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

Yeah, yeah, understand.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

You know, um, and again, it it's a perception of energy. It does not give you energy. Essentially, what it does, it clogs your adenosine receptors, so you don't get sleepy. The problem is once that caffeine leaves the receptors, you have a bunch of adenosine just hanging out here, and now they have a greater affinity for those receptors. You just get flushed with adenosine, yeah, and then you get sleepy. This is a caffeine crash.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

And so that's the chemistry behind the crash after a lot of caffeine.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah. Caffeine isn't bad for you.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Agreed. Per se.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

It's a great nootropic, great cognitive vitamin. Now, just like anything else, abuse. Yes. You know, I mean, you you drink too much water, you'll die. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

So then it was caffeine. I found out the hard way, Adam American team as an intern. 600 milligrams is my threshold. 600 milligrams? At the time, bangs were popular. Each one was 300. Yep. You had two bangs. I had one before I left, and I had another one on the way there. And then Phil offered me one, and I didn't think about it. Okay, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

I started sweating code, I started shaking, my face was pale, air too was coming. I'm like, bro, I have to go home.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

I can't stay here.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Oh wow. Yeah. And I think just like you said, um, what pe I think a lot of people reach for energy drinks because yes, they're tired. And what is that coming from? Is it poor sleep? Is it under recovery, over-exercising? But a lot of people use caffeine because caffeine will also suppress your appetite. Yes. Because they're eating at such a caloric deficit or they're not nourishing their body appropriately, either intentionally or unintentionally. So they're like, oh, I just need caffeine. I just need caffeine. It's like, no, you just need to eat. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

So, what other energy drinks have you touched? You remember Jack 3D, did you do a test on it?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

No.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

I mean, uh not the original. No, no, no. The energy drink one.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

This is when I first came down here that they were sending like pallets of it to the No, we we have we we did Jaco Go, we did Bangs. So Bang was actually pretty cool. They sent us all the cans, same labeling. One had caffeine, one didn't.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

We did uh The Rock's uh is it whatever the rocks energy drink is.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Oh, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

I don't know. Charge of the K, I think.

unknown 12:13

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Um, then we did Alani. Then we did pre-workouts, which we used it for an esports study. I hate to call it esports. I I love video games, but if you play video games, you're not an athlete, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But strength and conditioning for esports now. I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

I mean, what are you preventing carpal tunnels? Yeah, yeah. It's like okay. But we we did one, that one was interesting because it was a mix. So we worked with the Department of Neuroscience and the External Sports Science Department, NSU. So we tracked brain waves and performance in first-person shooters using Teocrine, which is a pre-workout. But it there's not pre-workouts marketed for esports. Take this prior to playing and you'll perform better.

unknown 12:57

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Again, um, just like fighting, esports is a very skill-dependent activity. Meaning the amount of uh strength and conditioning, whatever you take, does not dictate how well you're gonna do. Just like a VO2 max, the VO2 Max is not a good indicator of athleticism. It just tells us your lungs and heart works pretty well. Right? So we saw that with the supplement, uh brain waves were more were more active during the shoot. Brain waves were more active, reaction time significantly decreased, you know, milliseconds, but in in a in a sense of you know, uh no scoping somebody, milliseconds matter.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

Yep.

unknown 13:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

No scoping means you shoot without the scope, or you just click the scope really quick and shoot. Um, so reaction time was better, uh, memory was better. Uh, we did a mem track uh assessment was better, mood was also better.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah, I mean it makes sense, right? Because I mean you can tell me if I'm wrong, but pre-workouts kind of put you in that state of heightened awareness, like if you just had a rush of like adrenaline and cortisol and things like that, which in those periods you are your quicker reaction time, you remember short-term memory increases. You're you don't have you have yet a higher threshold for pain, you have all these things in an acute stress situation. So is that good to put yourself in that situation often? Because most people are using pre-workouts like what, three, four, or five times a week?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

I think that would depend on the stressor, right? If you look at stress, we have acute stress, chronic stress, and episodic acute stress. Um acute stress is good, right? You know, we correctly we need that. The sympathetic nervous system has to work, right? We have to make sure our fight or fight response works. When do we see positive acute stress? Going to the gym, going to a haunted house, like haunting horror nights. You know, it's all positive stress. Um negative acute stress, you know, getting injured, work, an argument. Episodic, it can be both good and bad, right? So episodic would be gyms five times a week at this specific time. It's acute, right? Or work, you know, ruining three day every single day you go. That's negative episodic. Chronic, regardless whether it's something fun or bad, is not necessarily good for you because then that cortisol is constantly elevated.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Right?

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Cortisol is a good thing when appropriate. Like again, post-exercise, during exercise in an actual fight or present of a threat. But if you're just sitting down and cortisol is just elevated, you know, people are gonna play video games, they'll take pre-workout every time they play. Most people play video games every day, eight hours a day. Yeah, you're essentially ramping up cortisol and all this other stuff every single day. That's that's not a good thing. We can see a decrease in the immune system, we can see change in mood, you know, various different things. Can even lead to depression.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

All right. So what was the question?

SPEAKER_02 15:52

No, so I was saying, did you see like people? Well, you answered that. So if you do take the pre-workouts, you are getting that response. So you can get that response even if working out without the pre-workout. So is it good to load on something to exaggerate that response?

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Me personally, anecdotally, I would say no. I don't like pre-workouts. You know, for me, maybe a little bit of coffee, which technically, I guess with a pre-workout, but a little bit of caffeine, like a low dose, like a noon tell it or something. I can wrap myself up for this.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

You know, maybe if I'm exhausted, I'll drink an energy drink, but I don't like pre-workouts specifically just because of the originally put it in it. Not that it's bad. But a lot of it is time dependent and dose-dependent. I'm just putting stuff in my body to put it in my body. You know, you look at pre-workout, it has three grams of creatine. Well, I need five.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Or it has your beta your beta alanine, but it has two. Well, I need eight to six.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

You know, like I'd rather just do it out on my own separately. Um, is it good? It I mean, it depends on a person. From a physiological standpoint, probably not. At least, you know, if a lot of people abuse it, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, dry scooping, which is terrible.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Oh, it says one scoop, I'm gonna take three. Like you you seen the Ronnie Coley video, like it says here one, but I like to put three.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Yeah, well, but then there's your argument, he was eight-time Mr. Olympia, so yeah. Oh, but he also trained like a madman.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Well, he's also, we've had this conversation, that's how he made his money. Exactly. And at that point, your health becomes an afterthought for this goal. Whereas the general population, you don't need to lift weights or look a certain way because that's not paying your bills.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah, people ask me about pre-workouts. I'm I'm with you. I don't like pre-workouts. Like I can, even if I'm tired, I'll get my off, I know how to get myself going. And I'm almost at this point in in training where I don't want to hype myself up to train. I want to do it in a very calm like state and then do really like lift heavy weights in a chill mood, you know? That I'm not psyching myself out anymore.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

And that's an excellent approach because if you look at the concept of arousal and stress, there's optimal arousal. Too much is bad, too little is bad. But everybody's optimal arousal will be different. You know. Um, for example, in the sauna, people like to blast metal rock. I like putting on like Andrew Bacelli, like maybe some classical stuff or some vocalist, you know. I need to relax. That's my arousal level to stay in there. For the gym, I don't need anything super crazy either. Sometimes I'll put on a C.T. Fletcher speech, you know, sometimes I'll listen to something like a soundtrack from Lord of the Rings or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 18:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

You know, but yeah, it all depends. Uh arousal is very relative to the person, but it is an important concept to understand.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah. I figured I if I if I go too high on it, I get tired quicker. Yeah. I blow up quicker. And that's something now that I'm older, I mean 40s. Um with jujitsu too, if I get angry and like something pisses me off, I'm gonna, I, it's, I'm done. I'm gonna get tired, which I don't want. So then I gotta be like, nah, I gotta stay calm and I can do better. And same thing with the weights, too. Like I'm trying to get to that point, it's like, okay, I'm gonna squat 400, but I'm gonna be like, whatever, just just squatting 400, it's all good, you know? As chill as possible. And then if I need to like ramp it up for some other reason, then maybe I got 420 in me, you know? Um, with the going back to the pre-workouts, I most people are running on chronic stress, right? So if you were to like track their heart rate and stuff, they're running hot. Like their heart rates are a little bit elevated. And I always think about, you know, let's say you're working after you, after work, you know, you leave your office, run out of your office, like, oh, you know, all these emails, I was dealing with all this nonsense. Get in my car, white knuckle it to the gym, and then you get to the gym and you're like, boom, pound of pre-workout. It's like, that's not gonna end well, my boy. Maybe today it felt great, but in like two years, that's not gonna feel great anymore. And that's where my mind goes to with pre-workouts.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

I'm like, yeah, just skip that, you know. Yeah, it's like, I mean, sometimes you need it, right? Sometimes. Just like sometimes you get home from work, you need a cold beer. Yep. Having that every single day, multiple times a day, not a good thing. Right. But sometimes, you know, it's it's nice. You know, like again, I don't need to be super hyped up. I don't like pre-workouts, but like doing a team lift, for example, that's fun.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

It really ramps everything up. Yeah, but do I want to lift that way every day? Probably not. Also, I don't want to have to keep taking weights off for Kaelin and Jackson.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

That's a lot of work. Shots five. Man, those team lifts from back in uh the early stream.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Oh, that was fun to watch.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Those were fun. I have some videos of those still. I mean, I lifted the heaviest weights I've ever lifted just because we were like, let's go. And then you have Rob in the back yelling, come on, only waking up. Thank you. I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yeah. No, I want it on me.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

So fun. Yeah. Something to said about be said about environment, you know, loud music, bunch of dudes sweating and cussing. And it's like, yep. Oh, hey, yo, pause. That sounded a little bit out of pocket, dude. But anyway, um, another study that I was interested in, uh, I participated in this when I was a subject, was the pro one of the protein studies you did, which it was elevating the consumption of protein to see changes in body composition, right? So for me as a subject, they I usually average about 200, 210, and they like 220 regularly, and they put me up to 300 grams of protein a day for that test. And my result was improved body composition for sure. Um Jack, too. Jack was a was in that as well. He also had to improve body composition. Granted, he's 21, I was 40. You know, so it there's something to be said there. What brought that study on?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

So Antonio is the pioneer of um sports nutrition.

SPEAKER_04 22:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

You know, years ago he started talking about creatine and protein, and the ACSM, believe it or not, laughs in his face. He almost got into a fight. Really? And then he was like, you know what? Screw this. I'm gonna start my own organization. And then the ISSM, which is the world's authority in sports nutrition, was born. Um, some of you probably have heard it in the past, and there's a lot of misinformation out, but high protein diets are bad for you. They're bad for your kidneys, they're bad for your bones. You can only digest 40 grams of protein in one sitting, something like that. Yeah, none of that's true.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Right? So we started doing protein studies. Even in my undergraduate degree, I was a subject as well too for a similar study, the protein overfeeding, which was four grams of protein per kilogram of body weight a day. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

You know, and then we did that again recently as well, too, when when you did it. Um so it's still a lot for me, because it's all based off of body weight. Now, there is zero negative effects on renal function with high protein diets. Right? If you were a healthy individual, if you have kidney disease, then it's not the protein, right? It's it's you have an existing disease. Right? Um zero effects on the bones. Nothing happens to the liver, hepatic function is always the same. Right? And the body can digest pretty much all the protein you consume. Now, absorption is a different story, but digesting it, yes. Protein doesn't digest and absorb in like 20 minutes. So if you consume 60 grams, yeah, it's 60 grams, you're not gonna digest it all at once. It's gonna take about you know two to three to four hours essentially to start digesting. Um so your body's gonna continuously digest that and then pass it through the intestines and intestines, pull out what they can, right, according to your physiology, and you'll get that microbiome. Exactly. And HMB helps with us as well too. Because absorption doesn't necessarily mean utilization is is optimal, right? You need uh homeostasis. It's a term they constantly throw out in school, but most people are not in a homeostatic state. Right? You know, I mean if you have a cold, that's not homeostasis. If you're stressed, that's not homeostasis. If you're injured, yeah. So that's why we did the that kind of say, like, well, that's one, prove them wrong, but also a lot of people say, well, if you eat too much protein, you're gonna get fat. You saw you didn't. You know, we said we saw in the final results. No, the um protein group actually saw an improvement in lean mass and a reduction in body fat mass. This is why body composition increased. Now why does this happen? Well, I think the simplest explanation for external validity for like the general population is if you consume more of one specific micronutrient, chances are you're gonna consume less of the others. Right? So you're essentially not putting yourself in a huge caloric surplus. Unless you were like someone like me, I had to consume 500 grams of protein a day. I was I was putting five to ten scoops of protein in a shake and just like drinking yogurt pretty much.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Um, because in food alone and then teaching, I just couldn't do it. Yeah, no negative side effects other than uh you know the thermic effect of food. I was constantly hot and sweating.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Um I felt a little slow here and there during digestion, but no. Fat mass decreased, body compass, and my lean mass increased.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Great.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

It um this is funny, is obviously there's a lot of like I feel like the eat protein movement has gained a lot of strength. But people, you tell them how much, you know, because the average person eats very little protein. I mean, they barely break off.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Well, look at the RDAs for protein, they're stupid low.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Yeah, and well, and and people, but it's almost like people have messed up their metabolism by skipping meals and all that, and their digestion and their stomach acid requirement to break down protein because they skip so many meals or eat too much trash, and you tell them to eat a hundred grams of protein, they're like, oh my god, that's a lot. Like, no, you probably need more like 150.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

That's like a meal. Yeah, yeah. No, but but yeah, I mean, it's true. Most humans, especially in this country, under consume protein and fiber, by the way. Fiber is a big one.

SPEAKER_04 26:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

There's a reason why cardiovascular disease is the number one killer in in this country. Um, and also 70 to 75 percent of our population is either overweight or obese, including children.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

So that's not a great thing. So I think protein consumption is very important. They recently turned the food pyramid upside down. I mean, I don't know why that wasn't done in the past. Like, why should a majority of our you know, food be carbs? Unless you're an ultra-endurance runner.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Like, I don't see what you're doing with carbs to then sit on your butt. Yes. You know, because to then be super sedentary, have that many carbs. It's like the OG Gatorade um recipe.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

That's good. Right? It's good, it's fantastic for athletes. Then I see parents buying their kids Gatorades to drink for lunch. I'm like, that's like 245 calories, a ton of carbohydrates. The electrolytes are fine, a ton of carbohydrates, which is great if he was about to use it or he has to replenish it. But he's just sitting there on his iPad eating mac and cheese and drinking Gatorade.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Don't even get me started on the coloring and all the dyes in it, but it it uh, yeah, that's a hard one because people drink. Like, I remember when we were back in New York during COVID and stuff, and and I started doing this thing where I was judging people's carts. I couldn't help myself because I'm like, okay, I know all the comorbidities of COVID. Why we're wearing masks and why we're doing all this nonsense is because these sickly people can't handle a cold. So then I'm looking at people that are making themselves sick, right? And I'm just like, oh, I want to throw your shopping cart out and make you eat vegetables and be, you know, but people that clearly don't work out and they have cases of Gatorade in their thing. I was like, man, you're really messing yourself up there. Yeah, that that's way too much. Now, going back to the protein thing, because this is this beats the point home. Uh so I ate 300 grams of protein for how long was that study? Was that four or six weeks? I think it was either six or eight. Yeah. It was pretty long. And um, I I eat a lot, like I eat four meals, and you know, but those were pretty high pro like eight ounces of meat here, six or seven here, and then I supplemented with pro two protein shakes a day. Um and yeah, I dropped my body fat went down, and I'm already pretty lean. And it it uh it was pretty surprising that even in somebody lean had that effect. Now, do you think it would be the same thing if somebody had the opposite, if they weren't lean?

SPEAKER_00 28:40

It's situational, but in the let's call them regular subjects that we had, um, they also saw improvement in body composition. And I think a lot of it is a placebo effect because you're saying, oh, supplements, yes. You know, and the mind is strong. If the mind thinks that the body will eventually will it, right? Um but I think it's the essentially reduction of all the other macronutrients, right? So probably eating less because they're too full from protein and protein and fat will interesting create the most satiety, so you'll probably eat less carbs. If you're eating meat as your main source of protein, like steaks, fatty steaks, you're gonna feel pretty full pretty quick. Fat and protein. Right? Carbs, great, but they won't keep you as satiated as fat and protein would. Yeah. Yeah. Um and yeah, there was very little that we saw other than the control group that we saw that had a either no change or a negative change in body composition.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

There's something to be said there too, because the payload with protein of calories tends to be less, right? More high protein, but at lesser calories than when you start dealing with the carbs, it's like you can get out of control with this much, gives you this many calories, like pasta, for example. It's like, oh, I'm gonna eat, you know, 300 calories of pasta, and it's literally like three things a penny, you know?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, it's like the vegan argument. You can get the same protein from broccoli. I'm like, okay, but a chicken breast this much or you know, five pounds of broccoli.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

That's something that I always consider with with people that are on vegan diets. I'm like, look at what you gotta eat to get the same amount of protein, and then don't even talk about bioavailability, you know, all of that. Heme versus non-heme iron and all that stuff. That's a big one for vegans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah. Um and what I think a lot of people don't realize is that for uh non or for plant-based sources of protein, most of them aren't complete proteins, like meat or animal meats aren't. So you have to blend. Which if you look at old school way of eating, why do you think rice and beans go together?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Exactly. Yeah. That's the best example too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now the carbs that you're gonna get from a rice and beans.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

No, but I'm just saying agreed, but uh, and then that's the problem with plant-based protein powders. People sometimes are like, I use a pre a pea protein only, and it's like, no, you're better to get a blend because that way it's complete.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Correct. And most of them, I mean, so if people are gonna go with a vegan diet, which I'm not against a vegan diet, it it can be sustainable if you know what you're doing. And it's hard though. It is very hard because let's say, like to your point, you go buy a plant-based protein, which nowadays most of them should be great.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Some of them are not, some of them are just fads and you know, stuff you find at like Whole Foods. But look at the leucine content. What's the leucine content on the plant-based protein? That's probably the most important market to look at. Because the highest natural recurring leucine content is whey and then casein protein, both milk-based and animal-based proteins. Then it's like meat, eggs, and then you get to your soy. But even then, you know, look at your protein. Do they have at least two grams of leucine? Then it's probably a good protein if you want to supplement with plant-based. But don't just buy it because it's plant-based. Understand what you're putting into your body because deficiencies are real. Yes. B12 is another one. It only sorts from animals.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

Iron.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

You can get it from nutritional yeast, which technically, you know, as my wife being a wild biologist, will tell you, yeast is still a living thing. It's still an animal. It's an animal, it's not a plant. You know, so but whatever, like it's a matter of ethics or turning.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

It's our ancestors. No, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

But yeah, B12 is another one. I mean, B12 is responsible for helping us create red blood cells and turning food into energy.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

And then iron. Heme iron, which is just blood iron, is what we're going to really absorb versus non-heme iron being plant iron.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

And also, when you were talking about with um muscle protein synthesis, being able to absorb protein, then convert it, I get a lot of that with um iron. And the like people can intake a lot of iron, but they can't convert it due to micronutrients, one of them being vitamin A in the retinol form, which is only available through plant or animal-based things, right? You can't get it through plant-based things. And to convert it to ferritin, which can then be used, because some people have great amounts of iron, but their ferritin's low, but they're not anemic. So everyone's like, it's fine. But it's like, no, they're missing a lot of things to help convert um iron to a usable form, and you need to eat animals for that.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Yeah. Honestly, I mean, I think any restrictive diet is a very poor approach. Yeah. Carnivore, not great. Keto, I mean, we released the potential style on the keto in athletics. It's not sustainable. And most people are never in ketosis. Most people who get into ketosis kick themselves out. Because if you eat too much protein on a ketogenic diet, you go through gluconeogenesis, you create more glucose, boom.

unknown 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Out of ketosis. I think that the keto diet for, and you can speak more to this if I'm not correct about this, but um, for things like epilepsy, for a medical condition where the keto is therapeutic for that, I think it's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

That is the original.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

But and then also if you have epilepsy and a keto diet helps you, you're gonna be adherent to that because that's huge, right? But if you're just like trying to lose weight and want to go on a keto, I don't think the pain of it is not worth it.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

In a sense of weight loss, it's not a diet, it's just calories in. It's just calories out. Yeah, nothing more.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

And a lot of people will get initially weight loss with a keto diet because they cut out carbs completely with carbs, high carbohydrates, carbs hydrate, you're gonna lose a lot of water weight. And also you're adjusting your macros to more protein forward. Now, some of them bastardize it, especially like with the Adkins diet, because they just ate like bacon, cheese, is, you know, and not like the good cheese and things that weren't that were so high in fat that, yeah, you helped decrease carb intake, maybe decreased some um blood sugar, but then your triglycerides and everything went up because of the poor fat choices you were making. And now let's take a quick break. Have you heard about collagen and how amazing it is for your skin, hair, nails, digestion, and joints, but have no clue which one to choose. I've been there. A few years ago, I stumbled upon Bub's Naturals, and let me tell you, I've been hooked ever since. Here's why I swear by them. Bubs Naturals keeps their quality standards sky high from the start to finish. Their collagen blends perfectly in coffee or really any other beverage you love. Plus, they've got convenient to go packs so you can stay on track wherever life takes you. And it doesn't stop there. They'll donate 10% of all of their proceeds to charities that support veterans. How awesome is that? Oh, and they've leveled up their electrolytes too. The Mix Berry, that's my absolute favorite. It's light, refreshing, and not overly sweet. What sealed the deal for me? Their electrolytes are NSF certified, made right here in the USA, and just like their collagen, every purchase helps give back. So do your body a favor, head to BubNaturals.com and use my code JANG20 at checkout for 20% off every time you order. Tired of looking like you lost a fight with a powdered donut every time you work out? Yeah, I was too. That's why I ditched the messy chalk and switched to chocolates. Chocolate is a new, clean, residue-free grip enhancer that goes on in seconds and lasts for hours. No clouds, no cleanup, just a rock selling grip. Whether you're crushing it in the gym, dominating on the pickleball court, or hanging on a rock face like Spider-Man, chocolate has your back. I even hit my 350-pound deadlift PR Summerstrom using chocolates, locked in, zero slip, total confidence. Ready to level up your grip game? Head over to chocolates.com and use code Jane Brown to snag 10% off your order.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Now there's some people in there talking about uh ketogenic diets and endurance sports and them supposedly being a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Well, technically, in an acute, like not longevity, but when you look at ultra-endurance um marathoners, their fat intake recommendation is 60% or above of the caloric intake because it's the most energy-dense nutrient, but also it's very slow digesting. It won't produce as much ATP at one time, but it will continuously produce ATP for a very long amount of time. Versus like glycogen and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Even the ketogen, so because with um ultra-endurance athletes, they're not eating during, because I know they eat during, and I don't think you can digest fat in the middle of a race. No, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:08

No, I mean because the body is so focused on sending blood to the working tissue, the stomach's just gonna sit there. And the amount of energy required to do so versus like thinking like a carb gel, yeah, it's gonna be way too much. So yeah, they'll eat normally some kind of fast adjusting carbohydrate.

SPEAKER_04 37:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Like the little Gittery gel patches or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Yeah, because that's what I was gonna say. And normally the fat loading is done the days prior to Yeah, and I know like because you spoke about fiber, there was a triathlete, because when we lived in Albany, I used to volunteer in the Iron Man tent for like placid Iron Man. But at the gym that we were at, there was a remember that try the Iron Man athlete that was working out there for a little bit, doing her own thing. Yeah. She was saying she had to taper fiber prior to the um the race purely for bow movement.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

I mean, that that would make sense.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Right. And so um but yeah, I just that's yeah, it's tricky. I have heard a lot about the I read the book Built to Move by Kelly and Juliet Starrett. And then there was a guy on Power Athlete podcast who the the carb loading, because remember when we were growing up in sports, it's like, oh, you have to game the next day, eat pasta the night before. The the carb loading's not really showing to be true, right? And the fact that they're um and there's differing opinions on this because I know a group of people who especially like you know, I think a lot of women go through this thing where they want to run marathons, you know, but they're undernourishing themselves. And there's a lot of dietitians who are like, you need to replenish your carbs while you're running. But then I've also heard the scroll school of thought where you don't necessarily need to replenish your carbs if you're running under a certain amount of time.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Yeah. So there's just a uh and that's tricky because you want people to nourish themselves, but at the same time, I don't think they it's not the pathways we once thought it was that's giving us our energy.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, and I mean honestly, if you look at carburetor, for example, the only place I would personally apply it would probably be like powerlifting and bodybuilding, which really is just a game of calories in and just ATP production because their primary energy system is ATP PCR. Right versus endurance, it's what aerobic. Right. Your your your respiratory change ratio generally is pretty close to 0.7. So you're essentially using fat as a substrate for energy rather than carbs. The closer you are to one, the higher the intensity, the more carbohydrates. Um carbon loading for an endurance event, the most beneficial one is gonna be fat. And it's not so much carbon loading, it's it's small boluses of carbs stirring. And if you look at the recommendations for nutrient time, and generally, if your workout is over 60 minutes, then we can introduce an intra workout, which is generally a carb drink.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Right? Right. Some electrolytes, of course, that should always be present, especially in South Florida if you're constantly sweating.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

We're traumatized by scratch.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Terrible.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

We hike the Grand Canyon and we use scratch for carb and electrolytes. And by the end of it, I'm like, if I taste that, I'm gonna throw up.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

I think it's just too synthetic a taste. It has too much synthetic stuff in it.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

No, it's just funny with the hiking, because my wife always wants to do it. Well, I can just put on my VR headset and do the hike from the comfort on my couch.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

You know, did this hike going back? This was 29 miles in a day. Well, and it's the Grand Canyon, so you start with a decent and then you end with a basically hiked the whole thing in one day. And Dan thought he'd be smart and stop in taking um electrolytes the last because I was tired of that scratch, and then I cramped up, which had never happened to me in the military. So I and I thought I still had that in me, and then I started cramping up, and I was like, what in the world?

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Shoving uh electrolyte tabs into his face.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Yeah, that was. I mean, perceptionally it is easier, but on the body, it destroys your taking a lot of loads of time.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

I've used hiking poles, and so we started on the decent. I'm like, why have I never used these before? But um, yeah, so it's interesting with the carbon. I don't think a lot of people know the fact that the more lean muscle mass you have, muscle can actually generate glucose on its own. And so that's something that I'm not, I don't know the ins and outs to relay that information um in general terms well. But um yeah, the more pro the more protein you intake, the more lean muscle mass you have, you're less likely to um go hypoglycemic and you can sustain energy longer.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Correct. Yeah, I mean, 80% of our glycogen is in our muscle.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

And um, when we look at things like um creatine, for example, again, we always heard the loading phase. You need to saturate the cells 20 grams a day for five days. You don't have to. Five grams a day every day, your resaturation in three, four months depends on your body. When would you use a loading phase? I mean, if you need the adaptations like next week, then yeah. But people mess up their stomachs trying to not that it's bad for you, but too much creatine can cause gastric distress.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

So you have to build, yeah. Yeah. But we were at the collective again and um oh, what's his name?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Waldman.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Waldman, he's a researcher in Alabama.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yeah, he's at a universe uh he's at a college in Alabama, he's a professor too.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah, and he was talking about the effects of creatine on the brain, especially in combat sports and things like that. And there's a couple, there's a guy who's a nutrition or did nutrition for some fighters, Durette, as well, and they're saying they want to load their have creatine in their fighters to for brain health, right? But that also can some people say it holds on to water. Creatine helps you hold on to water, and they're trying to cut weight, and so cutting it out helps them. And my whole thing was well, if you supersaturate them, just creatine hang out longer, but you won't get the water retention, potential water attention because of it.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

You do this too. You handle weight cuts for a lot of fighters. That's a that's an excellent question. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

So what do you think? The amount of water that so we gotta understand what a hyperresponder is and a regular person.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Yeah, that's why I said potential, because it's not everybody. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

For us, we're like 70 plus percent water. So why wouldn't you want to retain water? That's my thought process for it. Again, especially in South Florida. But the amount of water you retain from creatine, generally speaking, is not that big of a concern for a weight cut, right? Um, some people are hyper responders. I see it more in women, especially during the for some reason, every female fighter I get gets their period fight week. Exactly. That's and the first three days, they retain crap out of the water. They're just freaking out, like, well, just let it pass. Yeah. Let it pass. Don't freak out. Um but with the uh creatine itself, yeah, I will taper it off from fighters two weeks, sometimes four for various reasons. If I'm other hyper-respondent, And they do in fact uh retain water. And I measure that using the in-body. It'll measure total body water, intra and extracellular. Um, some I just remove simply for because you're essentially emptying your stomach, you're depleting your entire systems. Creatine, again, not bad for you, but it doesn't dissolve like sugar would or salt would. It's gonna sit in your stomach, it might cause gastric distress, unless you're gonna need to somebody dry heaving during a weight cut. Right. That can cause a lot of complications. So that's the only time I would really remove it. There's been some findings, I don't remove it at all. You know, and they're fine.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Yeah.

unknown 44:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Yeah. But I think that Wallman said that it does, it's not if you stop taking creatine, it's not like your cells, especially like in the brain, get depleted from it. Yeah. Right. And so it you can stop it. So if whether it's, you know, psychological or they're actually holding on to water, um you'll still reap the um beneficial protection that creatine provides if you are to get hit in the head.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Correct. Yeah. I mean, it's along with lithium, it's one of the substances we're looking at uh for potentially preventing things like uh traumatic brain injury and various forms of dementia. Um more so lithium for the other stuff, but uh creatine still seems to be promising in in that sense. So I mean, if you were to ask me, everybody should take creatine from the day they're born to the day they die.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Yep, I agree. I even got, I'm not super happy with thorn creatine because I think they started sourcing out of China, but they haven't been super transparent about it. Um, but they are unique that I've found that they have travel packs, so little individual packs. Because that's the biggest thing. I don't want to take a bag of creatine with me when I travel because it looks suspect, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:44

So I I I do that. I I'll take baggy right protein. Creatine. Right creatine, not cocaine. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

You know, um, but one of the things Wallman said, and I'll say this and then I want to get to the obesity study. Um, and I don't know if you've ex you have looked into this at all, but if you do get a concussion, TBI, anything, immediately start on start on ketones for the protection protective effect, especially while symptomatic.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

So I've heard that as well, too, along with this. That was actually my initial uh dissertation topic was looking at lithium supplementation post-concussion for that same purpose. Uh the brain lows fat, it seems. So I can't say anything conclusive, but I I would say it probably would be beneficial. Um if you start something like lithium as well, too, it probably would be beneficial. Um the initial target was veterans or wounded veterans. And how can we help with you know PTSD and all those concussions and everything like that, and then fighters. Um so I I think post concussion or post-TBI, I I think any kind of intervention that may be potentially beneficial to the brain is very important. Because brain cells, for the most part, it's not like everything else where there's a high turnover rate. You know, once brain cells are gone, they're gone. So if you can do whatever you can to protect them, and again, I haven't done myself many personal studies on this, um, but based on the literature, I would say it's gonna be very beneficial.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Well, I think ketones was only if you capture like an acute TBI, like right after, right? So the the kind of is like you have a fighter going for a fight, they're likely gonna get a concussion mild at least in the fight if they get knocked in the head. So having them have ketones right after. Or Waldman had a uh a student who was in a car accident, right? And he's he called him and he's like, I already got my ketones professor. Like, you know, so he's like, he's doing it. Now, with you're saying with the lithium, is that like a veteran PTSD, TBI, 10 years ago, lithium could provide benefit?

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Yes. Okay, awesome. So we never completed the study. Um, we lost funding and everything. Sucks, but I mean, I think it's very important.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Yeah, no, it's a huge thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Um, but it it seemed like there's a specific protein that you would find in people post-concussion, post-CPS, stuff like that. And that's the protein that's being targeted um with some kind of enzymatic process with the lithium that would help alleviate some of the symptoms of PTSD. Again, this is all our hypothesis. I've never computed it, so I can't say for sure. Um, but same thing with concussions and everything, the the severity of the symptoms. You know, the biggest purpose for it was okay, so TBI, you know, CTL stuff, high rates of suicide. How can we prevent that and slow that down? So we were looking at lithium. Yeah, which in the past, depending on who you ask, is seen as a antipsychotic drug. Yep. In high doses.

unknown 48:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Yeah. Well, it well, my um I use a a supplement, uh concentrase by trace minerals, it has lithium in it.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

So like little schizophrenia or bipolar, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

Yeah, but it's like you said, high doses. And you have to check levels. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Don't eat batteries. So um, you also did a study on the FTO gene, which is um they the name of it is not, but the concept, the FTO gene is what they would call the obesity gene, according to Oprah's uh island visiting Jeffrey Epstein related, but um, she says she's and she's gone, she's got a whole YouTube channel dedicated to the obesity gene and all the research on this stuff. Um it irks me to no end that she's the one that's bringing this up and beating this up in the mainstream. And her little researcher person who probably doesn't know anything about nutrition and training or none of that, that she brings along, we're like, tell them about the obesity gene, you know. So what did you see in your study on it? Like, what for let's okay, what were the parameters of it?

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Let's really so initially, my research partner, um Cassandra Evans, she actually just got her PC. So congratulations, Sarah. Um, so she actually started this FTL study way early on, and I kind of piggybacked on it um just to help her out. But then it was actually I had many many dissertation topics. This was normally what you put in dissertation, you don't present all of it. So I was gonna take whatever she didn't present and present on it for myself. Uh I completely changed it to something easier. Um, but so it started with the overfeeding studies. Okay. So first she ran some surveys. She took uh saladary samples to look at the specific allele. So we did a little bit of um genotyping, and then we essentially identified those who had the FTO gene, those who did not have the FTL gene. At this point, we're not looking at whether they're obese or not, just you have the gene. Okay. Essentially the gene, fat-trade obesity is the colloquial term. It's a specific allele that exists. Uh I forgot one chromosome, I forgot what specific chromosome it exists in. Um, but essentially it's going to affect your satiety rate, meaning you won't feel satiated, whether it's you know, flux of leptin and ghrelin in the stomach, um and a higher predisposition for essentially gaining fat mass.

unknown 51:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

So that's why it's called the fat trait obesity gene. I mean that you're genetically predisposed to be obese, which by the way, just right off the bat, genetics do not dictate the way that you're going to be.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Okay. I mean, my parents are both shorter and stronger than me. As a matter of fact, my family are my biggest inspiration because I see exactly what I don't want to be. They're great people. I'm just, I don't I don't want to be small, weak, or sick or or fat all the time. You know, so I'm, you know, I'm if you would look at my parents, you wouldn't think I'm I'm their their son. You know, they're both under 5'5.

SPEAKER_04 51:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

I'm not that tall, but 5'10.

SPEAKER_04 51:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Um, so we started looking at it, and then we started looking at uh essentially food surveys and questionnaires. We did um some qualitative studies on the people who have the gene and what their habits are and their relationship with food is. Initially, we found out that okay, people who have this gene and are obese have a very poor relationship with food. Whether or not you have the gene, that already is a cause for obesity in most cases. Then we're like, well, some people have it and they're not obese. Let's let's compare the two. And it all came down to a matter of behavior and routine. The ones who have the gene and are obese generally practice poor nutritional practices, were not very physically active, um, had other comorbidities. The ones who had it and were not obese, exercised regularly, were pretty conscious about their nutrition, right? And you know, that's really it. You know, uh well, another thing too, we tracked is sleep. Sleep is a huge thing, which which any study you do that has to be with physiological changes, you should always track sleep. Right? Um, because even if you exercise, eat well, do everything, if you don't sleep, none of that matters.

unknown 52:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

So I mean, to the point of Oprah, she's saying that she was obese because of the gene. No, you're obese because you have a very comfortable life, probably, and you don't make very good choices.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

Yeah. Um well that and you could say that people, especially when she was doing her show, I mean, I will admit that's probably a lot of time, right? Preparing and all the things. So how was her sleep? She never talks about that.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

She also has a history of crash dieting that's played out in public. You know, she did that liquid diet for four months and lost 60 pounds. This is back in the 80s, she was doing this. So she's got a very, you know, weight watchers and all this stuff. She's got a history of jumping on diet fats or at least promoting them and losing all this weight and then gaining it all back and then losing it again and gaining it all back.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Does nobody ask her, like, hey, have you considered exercising? Yeah, like you're doing hiring everything.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Well, she's strength training now.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Uh yeah, in her seven. Because she has to.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

If not, she's gonna get an osteoporosis. Uh there's a picture of her floating around recently that I'm just like, she well, there's that. No, this is like a more recent picture. She looks she looks very, very gaunt, like she's like disappearing.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

She's gotta be careful. And then people with darker skin, too, you're not gonna absorb vitamin D as well. Oh, yeah, she doesn't. Osteoporosis, and you're a woman, and you're on probably some kind of drug to help you lose weight. You're gonna see some. Oh no, she's on it.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

She says that the the only thing, the only option you have when you have this FTO gene is to be on GLPs, which I don't know how much Pfizer or Modern. I have the FTO gene. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

You know, all that means is you know, November, December, January, um, I get a little bit fatter.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

You're just, you know, preparing for that hard winter.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

You know, I mean maybe that's what the gene was for.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

Um, so she says something about food noise. And in what I read in your study was that people with the gene have a propensity to want to consume more higher carb foods, refined sugars, but they also tend to eat when they're not necessarily hungry. And so they're seeking food when they don't have necessarily a need for it. And so did you find that even with the people who had the gene but weren't overweight, that they tended to eat more, but they just made better food choices when they ate more? Or was that not?

SPEAKER_00 55:17

We we decently see that, but again, they're very constant other choices. So, you know, if they spurge this day, then they'll do some kind of method to make up for it elsewhere, whether it's exercising, whether it's a fast or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 55:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Um, you know, and then some of them had those cravings but didn't act on them like they're like, oh, I wish I got a bag of gummy berries right now. But they didn't. And again, it all comes down to the choices you make.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

Yeah. And I understand that even when you said that, that they have some that gene caused them to have a mental drive for that, right? But not necessarily, they don't necessarily act out on it. And I had a conversation with a patient who was telling me it's all about willpower. And I'm like, I d I disagree with that. Because if you, I mean, whether or not you're aware that you have this gene, but if you know, like, hey, I have this wicked family history or I myself have hypertension or diabetes, it's my responsibility to make, even though I want other things, I know that that's gonna be bad for me. So I'm gonna make a decision to have things that are good for me. And so I think it comes down to people need to be aware of how food impacts their body. I don't think a lot of people are aware of that. And then I was telling Dan, how much does it suck for people who have that gene and have that propensity to want to eat poorer food choices in a world, or excuse me, not a world, in a country that we live in where food chemists are making foods to be addictive for you to want to eat more and not able to control your consumption of? So it's like a little perfect storm for these people who have the gene.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

That also does food selection matter, like food quality in this regard? Because I'm thinking, you know, there's this theory out there that a lot of the overeating is not necessarily based on willpower. It's based more on what you're eating. Like if I'm eating chips that have no nutritional value and no protein to them either. And you add the engineering effect of the, you know, that fact that it's engineered for you to keep eating them versus I'm gonna, you know, I'm hungry, I'm gonna have steak and I don't know, some rice and beans, high fiber, high protein, a little bit of good fat in there, that I'm gonna react completely different because I'm gonna hit satiety quicker.

unknown 57:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

And that's so in the surveys, the self-reported surveys we got and the food recalls, the ones who had the gene and were obese, other food choices were mostly uh like prepackaged or pre-made foods or stuff in boxes. Versus those who weren't obese, they're looking more like whole foods or foods that are naturally occurring in that way. They're not taking any processed stuff or stuff like that. So food choices absolutely does matter.

SPEAKER_04 57:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Right? Because you may think, oh, I'm getting these vegetables, whatever. And then you look at it, it's full of preservative, full of like hormone, like yeah, it's it's a vegetable, but healthy doesn't mean low calorie. Healthy doesn't mean it's gonna make you lose weight. It's just that it's good for you to understand what's actually in it for you to consider it healthy. Because I think one of the biggest scams in the world is the term organic.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Yeah, we've talked about that.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Yeah, we've talked about that. Like what does organic mean to you and what organic means for the person selling it to you?

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Yeah. Well, I think one of the biggest scams is putting like this hundred calorie snap pack, snack pack, you know, like Cheetos or Cheeses, 100 calorie, 100 calorie Oreo pack, you know, and have people hyper focusing on calories, which I'm not saying that they're not important, right? Because yes, a lot of thermal thermodynamics, I know that, but we went away from what has more nutritional value, you know, an apple versus a bag of cheeses may be the same calories, but which one's gonna, you know, render more nutritional value for me. And so I think that that that's one of the biggest scams was making us hyper focus on calories and not quality.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Um yeah, I think when you look, lay out a hundred calories of Oreos versus a hundred calories of, I don't know, steak and rice, it it's a completely different animal, right?

SPEAKER_04 59:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

Even though it's a hundred calories at the end of the day, but you're I think your hunger cues and all that stuff is gonna move differently, especially if you have FTO, you know, and your willpower is at stake. I'm thinking, okay, eat these hundred calories versus these hundred calories, and you should have a different result.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

Yeah, I mean, and the effects are oftentimes permanent and very long. CT Fletcher's a good example. He became the street curling champion eating just McDonald's, strongest man at the time. And now what? He's had multiple heart surgeries, actually has someone else's heart inside of him. Didn't he drop off a heart attack the other day? Was it CT or who's the guy? Oh no, Cali muscles, the guy that just had another heart attack. Yeah. So I mean, like, yeah, the McDonald's gave you the calories you needed to because in the sense of lifting yourself in strength, it's it's it's mostly a game of cali calories, right? But nutrient density matters for quality of life. And that's why later on in his life, everything went downhill.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

Well, and then I don't know, did was he natural or did he He says he is. Right? Because then, like, what are the effects of those?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

He says he is.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

Um, a lot of the bodybuilders, like super strong guys, if they use performance-enhancing drugs, what are the cardiac effects of those?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

So as well. Yeah, I mean, it'll for sure change the physiology of your heart. Testosterone is one of the safest things you can take.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

But they're not necessarily taking testosterone.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

No, so guys were taking it for outside of therapy, guys were taking it for performance enhancement, or most of the time practicing polypharmacology. So test, trend, anovar, winstru, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

That's I mean, you're talking about cardiac function, hepatic function, and then renal function. Yeah. All getting attacked at once.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

Which I mean, PEDs are vogue right now. Like people are building followings, just talking about all the stuff they're taking.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

So that's one of my favorite topics, right? You know, and I think education is key to that because people are gonna do it. There are risks. Yes, you can mitigate the risks and essentially reverse a lot of them, depending, and it's all dose-dependent. I mean, if you're blasting a gram of everything every day, you're probably gonna die pretty soon.

unknown 1:01:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

But you you can reverse a lot of things, but it all has to be educated. And a lot of doctors or pharmaceutical companies will straight up just say it's bad, don't do it. Okay, but why?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

You know, when we know the why, then we understand how to approach things.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

Yeah, I've only had one patient when I was up in New York who was doing steroids unsupervised. He was just doing it, like buying them online, doing it himself. And he was like, You're just gonna tell me to stop. I'm like, stop what you're doing, how you're doing it. Yes. Go talk to somebody who knows how to do it. I don't know, so I'm not gonna tell you. So yeah, I'm gonna advise you to stop because your blood parameters are not good. Um, but if you're gonna do it, I can't control that. Find somebody who knows how to do it.

unknown 1:01:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

Um, so an interesting thing in the study that I was talking, I talked to you about earlier was the exercise effects of those who have the gene. So, can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

So, those who have the gene, and I I don't know, because we didn't really we had a survey for it looking at physical activity. Those who had it and were obese obviously didn't even walk into a gym. Those who had it, and just comparing other uh surveys from different studies from general populations were physically active, those who had it and were physically active seemed to exercise more. Now, I I don't know really if it's due to the gene, it's just commensurate some willpower or so on. I mean, I I I'll use myself as an anecdote. I exercise a lot, I'd like to do it. I know I have the gene. Maybe now because of that knowledge, I probably have a higher reason to work out. If I were to think about it, I think before I knew I had the gene, I probably did not work out as much.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

But what I saw in the study was that those who had the gene, because the study of physical activity with those who had the gene and didn't, there wasn't a big change in weight loss or body composition, but because no dietary intervention was monitored for or implemented, but they noticed that those who have the gene had an increase in VO2 max versus those who did not. Therefore, you could hypothesize if you have the gene, you have a beta better capacity to exercise.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Yeah, um, that'd be a pretty good study to follow up on.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

And so my thought is as soon as I read that, I was like, what if this isn't an obesity gene, right? That we've labeled it just because of the world or the country we live in now and the epidemic that obesity is. But what if this was a gene that like a work capacity? Right, that we evolved for. Because I mean, if you believe in evolution, why would we evolve to have a gene that's just gonna make us fat and sedentary?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

No, actually, now I'm thinking about it. That makes perfect sense. It's it's like a battery. If if you are if you have a larger battery, right, or you're storing more fat, per se, which is very dense energy, you can do more.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

Problem is people are sedentary.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

Exactly. Yeah, I mean, if you look at nature, look at look at animals. High fight, half high-fat diets are generally what animals would predators would seek because they don't know what they're gonna eat again. They have to perform, or they hibernate.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

So you're gonna need that. So yeah, I mean, it makes sense that if you're genetically, you're someone who would need that to work out more, you would have a higher output for work. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

So is this the gene like the the great warriors back in the day who would be sent off to like defend or whatever? They would need to be able to hold on to a bunch of fat, hold on to a bunch of energy because their work capacity was gonna be so great. But now we've bastardized it with our current food and lack of physical activity. I would want to know does David Goggins have the FTO gene? Does Michael Phelps? Like these people who have big capacities.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

I can't speak for Michael, but I'm like almost certainly because he was obese. Right? Yeah, yeah. He was very fat. I mean, just his demographics alone, um, is there a higher predisposition for the gene in your black and Hispanic?

unknown 1:04:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

And I was talking to some of my friends, I was leaving the voice memo telling them about this because I got really excited about it. I was like, do I want to have the gene? Maybe, because it does that mean I have a greater capacity that I need to start exploring, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

So now with that, I'll probably say this. Statistical significance is great.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

Yeah, I yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

But if it doesn't make sense, doesn't matter, right? Like you would probably do great whether or not you have the gene in your work output.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

Right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

I think at that point, and this is just me speaking personally, at that point we're just chasing millimeters, which makes this much of a difference.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

But it is something worth to look at potentially for a clinical standpoint, like later on in the future, if we look at something like um exercise physiology for cardiovascular rehabilitation, that might be important.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

Yeah. Because if you have the gene and you're sitting on your butt, you're just like wasting this crate capacity that you have for the stomach who doesn't have the gene, right? And you could be the person going out there doing more, but for whatever reason, trauma, food choices, how you were brought up, you're not. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

Yeah, and I mean it also makes sense. You said the warriors. I heard this a long time ago as a kid. In real life, the heroes we see on TV, in real life, they have beer bellies. They're not these ripped dudes we see like ones. You know, the guys saving people, the guys going to wars are dudes with beer bellies.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:13

You know, I think of look at Thor when he let when he stopped and he like let him see barely fit in the suit. That was hilarious when they did it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:21

But he has great capacity, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

Oh well, if that can happen to a god, what's gonna happen to us?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

I um also kind of close out here. I know you do a lot of weight cut stuff um for fighters, and some of it is very impressive because like I think about Tyler Ray, who is 200 something pounds and fights at 170, but his 200 pounds he's ripped. Like, how do you how did how do you get that dude down? Well, and people also think about weight cuts. They think about extreme like caloric deficits, but it's like you're you're you're feeding on pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

They also think about oh, a weight cut is short, right? It's like two weeks out, but really it's months.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:05

Yeah, so I mean it depends obviously on body composition, you know. If we have to address body fat, but for Tyler, no, he's probably walking 10% or less most of the year. Um, but someone like him, we start out maybe four weeks out, and it's simply just more so nutrient timing than reduction. So we're using those carbohydrates around training. We're being smart about when we fuel the body, right? So we're not storing anything, but we're also not because they train all the way into fight week. And we know if you're depleted, non-contact injuries happen, contact injuries happen.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

So we really don't reduce calories or micronutrients too much, you know, going into fight week. We see reductions more so during fight week. Maybe we'll make slight reductions of carbs, you know, two weeks out, and I'll ask, How are you feeling? Do you feel like you're recovering? Do you feel like you have energy? Yes, okay, perfect. We'll keep it like this. No? Okay, let's increase carbs a little bit. Um and then the weight cut itself is not a matter of fat loss, right? It's it's dehydration. The great thing about uh Ray or Tyler is that he is very muscular, right? And glycogen, right? One molecule of glycogen binds to two gram three grams of water. And his muscle is full of glycogen. We have a lot of water to pull from. Right? So he has had hard cuts in the past. Now, I I think it's more so attributed to one of the sponsors, Cochleas has, and I won't name it, but it's this little shot they take. And I've had three fighters had a really hard time uh losing weight when they're on that, specifically water weight.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

But with someone like him, it's just more so water manipulation, making sure he's not increasing body fat. And then the biggest mistakes people make is removing carbs or reducing them too early, and then cutting out sodium too early.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

I um with him, I was the first time I saw him cut weight, I was like, wait, this dude is what? He's a welterweight? Yeah, I mean, he's like 205, lean, like you could see the eight pack. I'm like, how did the hell do you get this guy to welterweight?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:03

Yeah, the last fight we did for PFL, I think he came to me at like 209. We entered fight week at about 190. Yeah. You know, and then um by the time we did the weight cut, we only have to cut about like 15 pounds.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:17

And do you mostly do that with manipulating water sodium? Or are you doing like saunas, like sweatsuits, things like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

So just for the actual acute weight cut, I'll do sauna and um sweatsuits or sauna suits. I I don't recommend any athlete ever use a sweatsuit or a uh sauna suit, right? Outside of trying to cut weight because all you're sweating doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna lose fat. There is a small meta body process that will help burn fat, but sweating, you're gonna have to repunish that water anyways. Right. So you're just sweating to sweat, or maybe you want to do it for your skin, then that's a good reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:53

Like detox, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:54

Yeah, but I mean, I I see fighters, you know, two, three weeks out and shadow boxing in the song suit.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

Yes. Why? All it does when we were doing uh jujitsu at Killcliffe, there was this guy who was shadow boxing all the time in a sweatsuit. I don't know if he was close to a fight or not, but it was just like wherever he stepped, there was just sweat, and it was so annoying. Because it was just like walking to the locker rooms is just like sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:18

And I was just like, oh, yeah, and then the sauna I use quite frequently. I mean, I think the sauna is good just for your cardiovascular health, period. But in the sense of fighters, acclimating is a big thing. I need at least 14 days of constant sauna use, 20 to 30 minutes. If you want to do more, fine, but don't kill yourself. Um, because when we do a weight cut, it's gonna be intense. Whether you're in a tub or you're in a sauna, it's it's heat and you're gonna want to get out of there. So if you can get acclimated to a little bit more of the extreme, then we have an easier time cutting. Because if you're constantly going in and out, in and out, and you're cooling off, warming up, it's gonna be it's gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

It's gonna be very stressful in the body.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

And then when they're sawing, they get out. Are you like tapering their water intake because you want them to replenish less water than they sweat out?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:04

So leading up to fight week, no. So they're probably still gonna consume two gallons of water a day. So no, we're we're not tapering off anything in the sense of the times we're doing it for acclimating. That's simply just for the body to acclimate. Understood. Water has to be replenished. Now fight week, we do start to taper off water.

unknown 1:11:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:20

I um we we have a situation in common, right? Because with with a fighter that we both worked with, um I'm not gonna say the name, but I think it points to a greater problem within females. And this is, you know, give you a little takeaway here for the ladies with caloric intake and you know, improving body composition. Because I think this fighter had high, high, you know, if you're training for MMA, even boxing, your levels of activity are very high because you're doing grappling, you're doing wrestling, you're doing, you know, striking, and then you're doing sparring days, and then you're doing your cardio, you're doing your strength and conditioning. So there's a lot of physical activity to recover from. But I think she was having a hard time dropping the weight. And when, you know, I don't touch that. I was just trained doing the strength and conditioning part. But when I start asking the questions, her caloric intake was what I would consider low for the amount of activity that she had. And I it was almost, and she was commenting to me how surprising it was that these other fighters were eating all this food and dropping weight still. And I was like, what are you eating? And then and then she starts telling me, like, yo, with everything you're doing, like I know your schedule. I'm like, that sounds too little. And then the weight cut became a problem, right? So, what does that inform there?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:42

So with females, it's very complex. You can speak to this. You guys are very hormonally complex.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:48

Yeah, well, Dan always says we're like Formula One cars, formula one cars, and guys are like Toyota cameras.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

Yeah, yeah. We never break down, super reliable. But I mean, the hormonal flux from the under-eating or everything else, or probably overreaching, right? And skills training and just not recovering was, I think, a big factor. Um I think with her, I mean, yes, so in the I think in the first place, if she would have disclosed everything that was going on, I don't think she should have fought in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:17

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:18

There is, you know, some cerebral stuff going on that really should have been addressed. Um, but with the hormonal flux from the undereating, again, causing hormonal flux, the stuff you had going on in the head causes further hormonal fluxes, specifically alosterone, ongiottensin, all that stuff. Which if you look at the was it renin, alosterone, ongiotestin system is gonna be the one responsible, the one we simulate the most for weight cuts. Right. If that's out of whack because you're under-eating and then you have something going on in the brain, you know, you're probably gonna have a really hard time making weight. Um, when we started, she was surprised because she was eating so much more. But for her demographic, she was still at a slight deficit. It wasn't like she was, you know, she was barely eating 2,500 calories. Which for the amount of activity I've got to do. Yeah, an intense activity too. And a lot of that was not so much because I programmed it, I wanted to program it higher, but there was there was pushback. Yeah, I'm like, oh, I don't know, we should be more conservative, this and that, you know, this is how we've done it in the past. I'm like, okay, but you you came to us for a reason, like something's going on, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:23

Um which I if the way she was telling me she would have dropped it like the fight week to like 1200, 1250 calories to go into a professional fight. That's just a setup. Wild, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:36

Yeah, and you know, and the entire time I was coordinating with uh director of nutrition performance for the UFC PI, my friend Charles. And the only reason why is because you know, we want these fighters to make weight because we want them to fight because that's how they get paid, but also entertainment. The UFC is investing in these fighters, you know. So he was on top of it everything, and I was just like, bro, like I don't know what's going on. Even he was baffled. This guy is, you know, the godfather of weight cuts and nutrition for the UFC. You know, and then after the fight, you know, it turns out that there was some other underlying issues that were not disclosed with nothing we can do there. But yes, under eating is probably one of the worst mistakes fighters can do. And fighters are one of the uh athletes that are most uh or the biggest culprits for under eating protein.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:25

Yep, yep. Yep, okay I um I I think also, you know, it speaks to this thing where you think you're gonna like activity level out and just keep your caloric intake here, and it's not gonna work out when it comes time to actually like getting lean and going into a weight cut situation, or people that are like, okay, I'm maintaining, hey, I'm gonna shred a little bit for this and that. If your caloric intake is really low, where are you gonna start taking away from?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

And then women, like the hormonal mess that under-eating and high levels of activity throws you into is gonna take a long time to undo. Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:00

And then one thing people don't consider you need calories to cut weight. Cutting weight is a metabolic process, it requires energy. If your body's depleted, you're not gonna cut weight.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:11

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

Sweat rate decreases, every other system in the body starts to essentially slow down. I mean, in extreme cases, obviously, it's it's fatal. Everything shuts down and you die.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

But you need calories to cut weight. Another thing is writers, I mean, it's not a huge deal, but those who have to get a lot of weight and want to cut weight by like shadow boxing or doing drills, the best thing you can do is cut weight in a sedentary fashion. You don't want to start depleting glycogen so much because that's where the water's coming from. Yeah. So it can also be dangerous.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:43

Cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:44

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:45

That's an awesome insight there into some science. Well, Jose, thank you for being here. Yes, we appreciate your info. I think we definitely have you on again because like you got more studies that you've been a part of and stuff that we're definitely curious about for gen pop health as well. Even though you, you know, you have that performance focus. We like to draw from that for people. Because I mean, you know, you're trying to be kind of an athlete for life type of thing and you want to be healthy.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

I mean, it's all it's all the same stuff, just at varying degrees, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

For sure. Nah, we appreciate you having. Appreciate your insights. Yeah, thank you for coming on pharmaphobic. Um thank you. Anything you want to close with? Eat your protein.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:26

Yeah. Do you want uh do you have like any platforms where people should like seek you out? Or no, it's mostly like you're just doing research and um Google Scholar.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:36

You can type in my name, everything will show up. Um, Instagram, I post educational stuff there too. Uh LinkedIn as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:44

Um everything but LinkedIn, everything is Darth Flex. That's right. LinkedIn is just Jose Rojas.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:50

Hard to miss. I'm the only professor with tattoos.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:52

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:53

If you want some good strength and conditioning memes, you got them all. You find all strength and conditioning conditioning memes. So follow Jose at Darth Flex. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:02

Thank you very much for coming on. You can find us at achievestyle.com. That is our website. Um, info at achievestyle.com is our email, and it goes down in the DMs on Instagram at Achieve the Lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

Yep. With that in mind, guys, eat your protein, like Jose said, uh, think about your long-term health and stay pharma-free. Thanks for listening to the Pharmafode Podcast. If you found this conversation interesting, which I know you did, make sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. And also make sure to check us out on Instagram at Achieve the Lifestyle. And if you're interested in pursuing a stronger, healthier, more capable version of yourself, check out our website at Achievethelifestyle.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:48

The pharmaphobic podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed are those of the most indigenous and do not constitute medical, legal, or professional advice. Always consult a qualified healthcare provider before making any medical or wellness decisions. While we discuss pharmaceutical, holistic, and alternative health topics, our content is not a substitute for professional medical guidance.