Eps 03 Imposter Syndrome

In this, the third episode of the Bolton Inc Effect, we sit down and discuss the all pervasive 'Imposter Syndrome' that so many of us feel when starting out in business or life in general. 

We unpack 5 different types of imposter syndrome based on https://www.themuse.com/advice/5-different-types-of-imposter-syndrome-and-5-ways-to-battle-each-one by Melody Wilding, The Muse.

As always, we appreciate your thoughts, and don't forget to subscribe. 

Thanks for the support so far.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Can I ask you the question?

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hi D, I'm Louis. And I'm Bridget. Welcome to the Bolton Ink Effect Podcast, where we are navigating new horizons.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Each week we're pulling back the curtain on what it really takes to build something remarkable, a business, a life, and a legacy.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

So join us as we share honest conversations about relationship, entrepreneurship, video production, and the art of building a life together in a new land.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Because sometimes the biggest risks lead to the greatest rewards.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

How can we help? Welcome to the Bolton Inc Effect Podcast, where I'm joined with my lovely wife and partner Bridget. Welcome. Hello Louis. How are you doing? Yeah, good. How are you today? Yeah, good, thank you. It's uh it's been a few days since our last podcast record, so we thought we'd get back into the studio and keep this momentum rolling. Uh, because I think we've created something which is like a child, which needs some nurturing and caring and looking after. How have you felt about the first two podcasts and that process?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So a few things have obviously gone through my mind. Like, what if it's a total flop?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Um, and then I have to reflect back on what you said, it doesn't actually matter even if we only touch one person. Um, the other thing that I have to say is that we've had an enormous um amount of support from our friends, and and honestly, that has meant the world to me. Waking up, you know, we're we're we're way ahead of South Africa, they will have seen it once we'd gone to bed, and waking up and seeing all of those messages come through, it just made me feel so warm, it made me miss those people so very, very much. But the the one thing overwhelmingly that I did feel when we launched this was um like I was in a bit of an imposter. Like, what gave me the right to do this? What value do I have to add? What what you know what what can I bring to this party? So, and and and and that's been an interesting battle for me to grasp over the last little while.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

It's an interesting topic because part of the process of you know putting this podcast together, and we're still early days, is first of all taking action and doing something outside of my comfort zone that I'm fairly comfortable in doing it because I've done it for other clients and I've produced it for other clients successfully. And now doing it for ourselves, I'm like, ooh, um, you know, you're never gonna please everybody, so and that's not the aim. So that concept of imposter syndrome is a real one. It's something that you and I have lived with or alongside for a very long time. Um, what makes you think that you're an imposter? I mean, let's explore this a little bit deeper. Um personally, is there has there been a specific time where you've actually felt I am going to get caught out?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

I have had that moment many, many times in my life. If I if I if I go back to my career. But I'm quite a high-change person and I've enjoyed lots of aspects of my career in lots of different environments, working for lots of different kinds of businesses, you know, from technology to manufacturing, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

I'm gonna stop you there. Please share the story about your foray into Bluetooth. Because in your early start of your career, you were instrumental in the development team or part of the discovery of Bluetooth and what that meant. How was that? And was there an imposter there, syndrome there? Because that's a big thing. I mean, it's it used, I mean, it's just second nature today.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Well, in indeed, I mean, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth are second nature. But so where when I was living in London, I was um asked to join TDK Corporation, who we all know because we had uh their tapes in our tape deck playing.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah, those for the younger generation, go and um go and Google cassette tapes and you'll see what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Exactly. And you were either listening to Madonna or Echo and the Bunnyman or whoever you were listening to. Yeah, exactly. Well, I wasn't listening to Madonna, I have to say that. Um and and so that's really what TDK, everybody knew, you know, TDT TDK tape was a really reliable one. You cost a bit extra, but you didn't have that unspooling. But that wasn't the division that I joined. So TDK um had an enormous RD side of their business, and they were very focused on um the 802.11 spectrum, which is Wi-Fi. That's the um, you know, the the the radio spectrum that Wi-Fi operates in. They then decided that navigating towards a different kind of um wireless connectivity, which would be person to person, um, and Bluetooth then became known in that industry. So Nokia was working on it back in the old days.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Um so this would be 80s, 90s I think 90s probably. Yeah. Yeah, and there was a whole I'm now I'm stretching you, but it's I think it's an important part of this of the story.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yeah, and and and it's an interesting thing about how, because in my presentations I used to talk about who how Bluetooth got its name and uh it had to do with some Viking, if I if I remember correctly, but I I I don't. And and so what Bluetooth, so the device that we had, you would plug it into your USB and it had this cable, and you and then at the time we were using BlueTac to stick it onto the top of the onto the top of the computer. Press stick, exactly, onto the top of the screen, and so when we would go to trade shows, um we would sit sort of a meter and a half or two metres apart, and you had your Bluetooth set up, and I had mine, and what we would do was we'd play an interactive game to show the capability that that um data packets could flow through the air between two users. No cables. Well, no cables between you and I, but I was very cabled into and and so that was that that was that was a massive leap in my in my career.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

So you were presenting this to audiences, to potential investors?

SPEAKER_01 6:12

So as I remember, we were presenting to um the likes of Nokia, um, and so it was you know f flying around Europe and uh presenting to governments to see how they could seamlessly integrate Bluetooth into their environments and that it would still be safe that people couldn't steal these packets of data out of the air and and a potential um uh information theft. So there were there were lots of angles, but but very much feeling, I suppose, uh when I first started like an imposter, like what the hell do I know about this? How old would you have been there? Um probably late 20s, going on 30. I think I had my 30th birthday in London and then into my early 30s.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

So, what did that imposter syndrome, or what did you feel, what did that look like, Brit?

SPEAKER_01 7:02

So that was I I remember presenting to the Swedish government um and feeling, you know, on the flight over and then in the in the cab to this little ministry building that we were presenting in. I have butterflies, my palms were sweating, and I did the whole presentation uh largely on my own. But I remember finishing, I mean I remember number one meeting them, and they were just the most wonderful human beings, warm and welcoming, and having gone through the presentation so successfully and and feeling their feedback and and knowing that I'd done a really great job, walking out of there going, ah, that that was another win for me. But it's very much about diving in and doing it because you feel like an imposter, I guess, a lot of the time when you do something new. It's that feeling of when you're walking on stage or or when you're going for a job interview or when you're sitting around a boardroom and and and it's and it's up to you to present a solution. You know, in inside you're probably shitting yourself, and it's that feeling of, as I say, the sweaty palms, the butterflies. But if you don't do that, what are you gonna do? Stand at the door of of your whole life and never jump in, just procrastinate all the time.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Well, it's part of the byproduct of being of have of feeling that imposter syndrome is that procrastination because you become um immobilized by your own thoughts of like I can't do this, I can't do this, even though you have the information. And I I was watching something the other day which um led credence to what we were talking about, in that I've often felt an imposter syndrome when somebody has studied. I never went to university, I went to college, um, and then you know, uh you did your degree, your three, four-year degree, doctorate, PhD, whatever the case may be. And I always felt um I didn't quite achieve what I should have achieved. And a case in point is when I started my career in television, I was started as a runner, fetching coffee, doing odd jobs, and we used to um manually mark tapes. We had big beta camp tapes that we had to write down time codes of various different um episodes that we had recorded. And we used to have university students come through that had graduated from film school, and I always thought I'm going to get caught out here because I haven't studied and I haven't got the knowledge. And time after time after time, I was getting the jobs and doing the work because I had the practical knowledge of what it took to run a video production department. And then I actually started thinking about this, and the the folks that had studied had a theoretical knowledge, so they knew the words and they knew the concepts and they knew the science behind it, but the actual practical doing it on the ground and problem solving on the ground when a guest doesn't arrive and you have to fill in another slot with the new episode, and you've got to find that tape and pro reprogram the beta cam machine, those kind of real life scenarios stood me in good stead because I had the practical knowledge, and yes, I subsequently went back and I and I learned a hell of a lot and and and figured that out, but that was on the on the ground learning, and I think the you said it earlier, the the way you get over that is by the doing, by the actual practical application of time in the saddle, reps, reps, reps. You just become better at what you do, and if you love it, it becomes second nation, it becomes tech uh a technique, and that is something that I think is two things. One is patience, and the second thing is time. It takes a long time, and often people have said you know to me, you know, how long does it take to film a video? And I can I it's such a difficult question to answer because I know how it's done in my head automatically with my hands tied my heart tied behind my back, but when you're explaining it to someone, you suddenly break it down into the various different steps, and they realize wow, this this person knows what they're talking about. I came across this um this article from The Muse, which um I went down a bit of a rabbit hole, and it's five different types of imposter syndrome, and I thought we'd just go through it because I think it helps me recognize some of the various um imposter syndromes that I have and questions to mitigate that or to actually question yourself. Um, this is an article on the muse, I will put it in the show notes for you. But it was done by a um an expert on the subject, Dr. Valerie Young, and she wrote this article and she's she's categorized it into groups, and then there are questions that you can ask to think, how can I get over this? So I'll just run through them. So the five um imposter syndrome types is the perfectionist.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

So you don't so so how does that look? So you don't you you don't do something until you think you're perfect, you're gonna be perfectly.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

I'll go into it. So the five that that that she's categorized are the perfectionist, the superwoman or superman, the natural genius, the soloist, and the expert. And I can recognize myself in in quite a few of these. And I'll just I'll I'll read you some of what it what it is. So, for example, if you go for the first one, the perfectionist. So perfectionism and imposter syndrome often go hand in hand. So perfectionists set excessively high goals for themselves, and I'm guilty of that, which leads to procrastination because it has to be perfect, it has to be 100% perfect before I put it out into the world. And I'm guilty of this time and time again with an edit that I'll do iteration one, version two, three, four, five, six, and I'll say no, it's not ready, until the point of going, you've stepped in and you've gone, Louis, it's it's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

I th I think that's um a fatal trap though, because if you put something out that is not your best work, you'll be judged on it. So that's a really fine line to draw. So then maybe it's about asking yourself, is this the best I can do in this particular situation? And if it is 100%, and you know that you cannot improve on it, you could move shots around, you could change some of the so so some of the the flow of it, you then you can keep going. But if you know 100% that you've done the very best that you can do, then surely it's a done thing. You can set sail to the ship.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

And and that's and that goes hand in hand with it's better done than perfect. Correct. Because otherwise it'll just sit in the hard drive and never get seen. So some of the questions that that she came up with is have you ever been accused of being a micromanager? Do you have great difficulty? You are such a micromanager. Do you have great diffic difficulty delegating? Even when you are able to do so, do you feel frustrated and disappointed in the results?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yes, yes, and yes. And I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that Miss 13 has picked up some of that behaviour. I mean, mowing a lawn, it's a lawn mower, you switch the thing on and it goes up and down. You push the thing. It's not more nuanced than that, but there is only one person who can mow the lawns.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, and I mean the other thing is when when you when you miss the insanely high mark on something, do you accuse yourself of not being cut out for your job and you ruminate on it for days?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

So that is you, Louis. So I feel like your work must be 100% perfect 100% of the time. Can I stop you? I hear this, and this is you. So what do you do about it? What do you do about it? How do you get over forgiving yourself? How do you get over giving yourself permission to let something go? How do you stop criticizing somebody else because they haven't measured the way you would have done it? But letting somebody do it means you can watch them grow. And I've put, you know, with particular reference to Miss 13. She's never gonna do things exactly the way you would do them, but it's pointless making her feel like she's failed.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

I absolutely agree with you. And and Well, I'm glad you agree with it. I do agree with you. And Dr. Young says, and I'm just gonna say this because it she says it more succinctly than I can. Okay, go. Learn to take your mistakes in your stride, viewing them as a natural part of the process. In addition, push yourself to act before you're ready. Force yourself to start the project you've been planning for months. The truth is there will never be the perfect time, and your work will never be 100% flawless. The sooner you're able to accept that, the better off you'll be. Now I have to admit that this has been a process and a journey for me, and you remind me of this often. And I think I've come a long way to realizing that I can let go and ask for help and put the work out there, and yes, be a better father to my daughter.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

You don't need to be a better father, you're a great father. What I mean is sometimes you just need to be a little bit easier on yourself. And and the fact that I'm learning. Correct, we all are. And the fact that you've jumped into this podcast for me speaks volumes. Because this this this is being this is huge. I mean, we're never gonna get this right. We're gonna say um a few times, you're gonna have a hair out of place, you you're gonna stumble over your words, you're gonna forget the context, you listen to it afterwards, and you go, Oh, why did I say that? Correct. But you've dived in and you've done it. So one thing I I know is that you do not buckle to your own fear. Because if we stand still, we die, right? Correct. You have to keep moving. You have to keep moving in whatever direction. You have to make a decision, either which way.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Energy flows, your focus goes. Correct saying something like that. Yes, yeah. Right, so moving on, bridge. The second one that she mentions is the superwoman or superman. Now, since people who experience this phenomenon are convinced they're phonies amongst the real deal colleagues, they often push themselves to work harder and harder to measure up. And I'm looking at you. But this is just a false cover-up for the insecurities, and the work overload may harm not only their own mental health, but also their relationship with others. Not sure if this applies to you? Some of the questions that she asked are do you stay later at the office and the rest of the team, even past the point that you've completed that day's necessary work? Do you get stressed when you're not working and find downtime completely wasteful? Have you left your hobbies and passions fall by the wayside, sacrificed to work? And do you feel like you haven't truly earned your title despite numerous degrees and achievements and time in the saddle? So you feel pressed to work harder and longer than those around you to prove your worth.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

What do you want me to say? Hi, my name's Bridget.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

I'm a superwoman.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

I attempt to be a superwoman.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, and I mean, it's you know, the the imposter workaholics are actually addicted to the validation that comes from working, not to the work itself. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

And and that comes from a deep underlying insecurity, a sense of insecurity.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah. And start training yourself to veer away from the external validation. No one should have more power to make you feel good about yourself than you. Even your boss, when they give you a project the stamp of approval. On the flip side, learn to take the constructive criticism seriously, not personally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah, and I mean it's just basically. Put your hand up if you can do that. I started these podcasts with that quote from Socrates, which is know thyself. And it's a constant reminder to myself just know thyself, know what you can do, know what you're capable of, and go for it. And if you don't know, ask questions or find out how you can get the more knowledge to be able to carry on.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

So what I'm taking away from this uh from that little snippet is as superwoman, um I am particularly sensitive to feedback slash criticism. Take it very personally, and what I need to do is remind myself that the criticism is potentially aimed at the work and not me as a person. Correct. Okay. Um and and to s and what else am I supposed to take away from that?

SPEAKER_00 19:34

That it's a personal learning, that it's the validation comes from the internal, not necessarily external. So you don't have the external validation to know that you actually know your stuff. Because you know your stuff.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yes, and I guess put in front of a challenge, one thing I always know is that I will rise to that challenge. And coming away from it, I can either go, oh, I could have done that better, that better, or that better.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Correct. And I and it's interesting this little journey that we've been on together starting our own business. I've watched you kind of question yourself in the marketing realm, and I'm like, what are you doing? I don't understand what the problem is, but I recognize it because this is for you now, because you it's not that you thrive on external but external validation, it's just it's been the modus operandi for so long. So now the mindset change, the mindset shift has been towards this is for me, this is for my family, and I know what I'm doing, and you're finding your way through that. So all those hours and all that expertise that you have in that noggin of yours, in that super brain of yours, super brain is finally coming out, and you know, I mean, yeah. Yes, you're my partner, and yes, I've known you for a long time, and I think it frustrates the hell out of you and me when we witness each other and you're like, oh my god, just get on with it. You know what you're doing. Yeah, true. But you've got to get there. I can't do it for you, vice versa. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for the insight. Number three, yes, the natural genius. Young says people with this competence type believe they need to be a natural genius. So, as such, they judge their competence based e based on the ease and the speed opposed to their efforts. So, in other words, if they don't get it right the first time, then they they might as well not do it. Does somebody come to mind? Very much so.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah, miss 13. Do you think do you think do you think all our children are potentially natural geniuses anyway, and then lose their way because they're bored with the school system, they've been influenced by friends, they witness b behavior that's not the best behavior, they model things.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Um a few things come to mind. When we went to school and we were growing up, there was one winner for the gold medal or the cup. Second place was the first loser. You didn't get gold place for the first 10 places. So you knew what you had to do to become the best. Life can sometimes be tricky to navigate. And I don't like saying it, but life is hard sometimes, and you have to have a certain amount of resilience and know that there is going to be competition. You're going to be a hundred times better than a hundred people, and you're going to be a hundred times worse than a hundred people. It's just a fact of life. So I think the way we're looking at Miss 13 is that she wants the stimulation and she wants to be good. The model that we are showing her is that there's no room for failure. Yet there is so much room for failure, but she has to navigate that path herself. So just create the space for her to be able to do that. And sometimes, in order to get to that place, you have to do the work. You have to put in the effort. You can't be a math genius without doing the work. I'll just read because it goes on from what um so she says the type of imposter set their internal bar impossibly high. Just like perfectionists. But natural genius types don't just judge themselves based on ridiculous expectations, they also judge themselves based on getting things right on the first try. When they're not able to do something quickly or fluently, then there's alarm bells. So not sure if this applies to you. Are you used to excelling without much effort? Do you have a track record of getting straight A's or gold stars in everything you do? Were you told frequently as a child that you were the smart one in your family or peer group? Do you dislike the idea of having a mentor because you can handle things on your own? And when you're faced with a setback, does your confidence tumble because not performing well provokes a feeling of shame? And then the last point is do you often avoid challenges because it's so uncomfortable to try something you're not great at? So to move past this is literally just try seeing yourself as a work in progress. And I love that because we are all works in progress. But wisdom and age will teach you that. When you're a youngster and you want to get something right, it can be very frustrating. So accomplishing great things involves lifelong learning and skill building. For everyone, even the most confident people, rather than beating yourself up when you don't reach your impossible high standards, identify specific, changeable behaviors that you can improve over time. And the example that she gives is if you want to have more impact at the office, it's much more productive to focus on honing your presentation skills than swearing off speaking up in swearing off speaking up in meetings as something that you're just not good at. Give it a go. Give it a go. Interesting, hey. Very interesting. I hope this helps because I'm definitely feeling like, oh, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

I often just sit with my mouth shut in meetings because I just think I'm gonna say something and I'll trip over my words because my brain's going frosting in my mouth. Yeah, exactly. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

So the fourth one, moving along, we've got two more to go. The fourth one is the soloist. So sufferers who feel as though asking for help reveals their phoniness, and you've just mentioned that, are what Young calls soloists. It's okay to be independent, but not to the extent that you refuse assistance so that you can prove your worth. So, not sure if this applies to you. Ask yourself these questions. Do you firmly feel that you need to accomplish things on your own? I don't need anybody's help. Does that sound like you? Sounds like me. Sounds like me too. Do you frame requests in terms of requirements of the project rather than your needs as a person? Yes, I do that. Definitely. So realize there's no shame in asking for help when you need it. If you don't know how to do something, ask as a coworker. If you can't figure out how to solve a problem, seek advice from a supportive supervisor or even a career coach. And I think that's very applicable today where the competition is high and there's a high volume turnover of numbers. You know, older generations used to be at work for more than two, three, four, five, six years, much longer. Today's standards, you'd be lucky if that's six months to a year and there's a high turnaround. Um, and I think sometimes you need to stay in something to build that skill set and to build that experience of whatever um career you've chosen.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

No, you sound like you sound very old when you say that. I am.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

But I appreciate that. The last one, the expert. So experts measure their competence based on what and how much they know or can do. Believing they will never know enough. They fear being exposed as inexperienced or unknowledgeable. So this is the expert. So do you shy away from applying to job postings unless you meet every single educational requirement? Are you constantly seeking out trainings or certifications because you think you need to improve your skills in order to succeed, therefore prolonging the process? Even if you've been in your role for some time, can you relate to feeling like you still don't know enough? And do you shudder when someone says you're an expert? So there's always there's always space to learn, granted, but start practicing just in time learning. This means acquiring a skill when you need to. For example, if you're responding, if your responsibilities change rather than hoarding knowledge for fast comfort. Um, yeah, so those are the those are the um, and I'll put this link into the into the show notes because I think it's a fascinating article on just how imposter syndrome can hinder you, but also be an extremely valuable teacher in order to um move your career forward or move in a personal personal growth as well. I hope that was helpful.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah, that was pretty helpful to me. I think I saw myself in a little bit of all of those. Yeah, absolutely. So and and ultimately, I still have to go back to to where we started at the beginning of the conversation. There are those moments in everybody's life where you feel like you're the imposter. And if you stay, if you keep standing at the door, you'll never get over it. So leap into it. Being an imposter or feeling like you are an imposter means that you're about to learn something great. And by getting stuck into it and moving through it, you come away with a learning.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I love that. I love that. Yeah, thanks very much. Is there anything else that you want to add? Any requests, any last thoughts? I mean, it's it's a it's a wonderful topic. I'm like getting into this now.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

I guess you know, why do we need to feel so what does an imposter what what is the imposter syndrome? What does that leave us feeling? It leaves us feeling that we're not good enough. And so you go back to what our primal fears are. A, we won't have enough, and and B, we won't be loved. Okay. And so once you once you tackle it from that perspective, there are people who will never love what you have to say or what you do have to do. And and and and that's and that's okay. That goes to what you were saying.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

You just have you just have to roll with the punches. And and and and I learned this quite early on is that um if you're if you try to be a people pleaser or please everyone, you'll please no one. 100%. It has to be divisive because we live in a in a world where we have differing opinions. Thank goodness, we're all individual, unique beings with our own thoughts, feelings, and and opinions. Sometimes the opinions need to be kept to themselves, but but that's that's life. And I think if you can if you have an opinion, know what it is and stick with it. And it's okay if somebody else doesn't agree with you, but invite that conversation to be had because that's how we learn from each other. We're all walking up the same path together. We don't have eons on this planet, we have a very short time.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

We have to remember that this is our earth school, really. We're we're we're we're here to learn. And the other thing that's important for me is there are times in your life where you are not the imposter. There are times in your life where you are the person who knows best. And and for some of us, that's in instinctively when when you're a mother. You know something so clear. And so those moments when you when you're feeling like the imposter, it's maybe just taking a little bit of time to breathe and going, how did it feel when I really did know something? And seeding that feeling, and going in and saying, This is just another opportunity to learn.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

I love that. Thank you very much. I think we should um explore that subject of motherhood because I think it's something that it doesn't come with a manual, does it? It does not come with a manual. No. So I think that might be our next podcast. But we'll give it some thought. Bridge, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate that. And um, yeah, I look forward to the onward journey. For the folks out there, please listen, share, give us feedback. We'd love to hear your feedback of um perhaps what you want to hear, or tell us we're talking rubbish, that's okay too. Um we're here to learn. And yeah, thank you very much for watching, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

This is a conversation over and out.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

That's a wrap for today on the Bolton Ink Effect Podcast. The world doesn't need more noise, it needs bold voices, real stories, and people willing to show up. So if something here sparked an idea, made you rethink the rules, or reminded you that you're not alone on this journey, don't keep it to yourself. Share it. Talk about it, better yet, take action. Because at the end of the day, it's not about waiting for permission, it's about showing up, doing the work, and making something that matters. Thanks for being here. Now go build, create, and keep pushing forward. We'll see you next time.