A Tall Boy and a Pack of Smokes

Content Note:

This episode touches on mental health, religious disaffiliation, family stress, and folk healing practices, including a brief discussion of an attempted exorcism.

Ever wonder what happens when a devout Catholic upbringing meets a restless, science-first mind? In this episode, we sit down with Isela—a self-described fronteriza raised in the U.S.–Mexico borderlands—to talk about stepping away from church, finding grounding through therapy, and what “spiritual health” can look like when you don’t subscribe to a single creed. The conversation moves easily from holiday foods and Guadalupe processions to panic attacks, somatic stress, and the quiet relief of letting go of religious guilt without letting go of cultural roots.

Isela shares stories from a goth adolescence, her parents’ separation, and a moment of family crisis that led her mother to seek help from a folk healer in the hills of Juárez. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exorcism, but something far more ordinary: limpias, tarot cards, incense and herbs—and payment in cigarettes and a tall beer. Years later, a card reading from that visit would map uncannily onto Isela’s shift away from bench science and toward public health and community work.

Together, we talk about agnosticism as a posture of curiosity rather than certainty, how to respect personal experience without turning it into doctrine, and why cultural humility matters when engaging spiritual practices that don’t belong to us. We also get practical—what well-being looks like when mental, physical, and financial health are all in play, how chronic stress shows up in the body, and why therapy, grounding skills, and safe relationships can matter as much as any ritual.

If you’re reevaluating faith, sitting with doubt, or figuring out where science and spirit meet in your own life, this conversation offers clarity without clichés—and permission to keep asking better questions.

If this episode resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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You can use the link at the top of the show notes or email me at religiositea@gmail.com to share your stories, thoughts, insights, reactions, and much more! I'm waiting for you to spill your ReligiosiTea!

Transcript

Framing The Series And Disclaimers

Adren 0:00

We're spilling tea on religion and health. Where intersections of faith and healing combine on religiosity. As this podcast discusses religious beliefs, religious experiences, personal testimonies, and mental and physical health, some of the content may be uncomfortable or triggering for some listeners. Content warnings will be provided in the description of each episode. Any personal journeys discussed on this podcast do not constitute health, medical, or religious advice. We are simply trying to capture the lived experiences of real people who would like to share their own stories about religion and or health. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, Isela?

Isela 0:56

Hello, hello, fellow podcast listeners. My name is Isela. Pronounce she, her, ella. I like to call myself a border brat or fronteriza. I uh was born in El Paso, raised in Juarez, and then came to El Paso when I started going to UTEP and just started working uh between El Paso and Las Cruces for a while, did a little stint in Austin, then came back and uh just been vibing here and now I live in Las Cruces. Uh I am a part of Adrian's uh PhD cohort because I'm sure you guys, if you've been listening since the beginning, he is doing some really cool research, and I have been uh kept abreast of his research shenanigans, and I love that. Uh, and I'm very excited to be here. I don't know what else do you want to know about me.

Adren 1:59

Um anything else you want to share? Do you have any special hobbies or likes or dislikes?

Isela 2:06

Yeah, well, I have two black cats that are my entire life, and I am obsessed with them.

Adren 2:13

Very familiars, they're my very much my familiars.

Isela 2:17

Uh my uh lady cat is uh her name is Anastasia, uh and she is a very sassy cat. And then my other cat is a boy. His name is Cirillo, or Mr. C, if you cannot pronounce Cirillo, which is fine. He's cool with that, with either, but um that poor cat has a smooth brain and he's very dumb. Oh but as far as like hobbies, um I'm I have like classic old lady hobbies like knitting, embroidering.

Adren 2:53

Isella is not old, FYI. I'm not sure these hobbies are not aligned with her age.

Isela 2:59

I mean, they could well be a middle-aged woman at this point. But uh but yeah, I I like to do like a lot of crafty stuff. Um yeah, um I I like doing creative stuff when I'm not doing science-y research stuff.

Adren 3:18

Right, and fun fact, I'm interested to hear about Isella's spiritual journey because she has done bench science and community-engaged social science. So she's a rare gem among us people who do science because she does both. Meanwhile, a lot of people compete over which one's which and which one's better.

Isela 3:37

Exactly. There's space for everything, but you know, I can I can I guess code switch between between uh the the bench sciences and the social sciences, so to speak. Yes, I I bridge the gaps. A connector. A connector, a facilitator, if you will, a moderator. That was a statistics joke.

Adren 4:08

Um, all right, so to kick us off, can you tell us about your current religious or spiritual practices or beliefs if you have any?

Isela 4:20

Uh well, I was raised Catholic, as most of us here in the Borderlands have. Um, I got baptized in the Catholic Church. I was uh uh told to do the first communion, my um confirmation. Sorry, I spaced out with the terms because I don't know if you guys have seen names like I I can understand Catholicism in Spanish, but in English I'm totally lost, and I always get lost with the terminology in English.

Adren 4:52

You can say it in Spanish.

Isela 4:54

And so I was even though I was raised Catholic like around the time that I was doing my confirmation, but because you know my my mom told me to, uh, that's when I realized that I was like, I don't really like organized religion, it's not my vibe, and uh, and as I was like learning world history and everything, I was like, no, this does not sit well with me. I don't know what does, but this is definitely not, and so um I just finished my confirmation just you know to appease the mother, and uh, and after that I have not really been uh a practicing Catholic. I consider myself more of a cultural Catholic, some like some people do, you know. I I um like Christmas, like the whole nativity setup. Uh I know that on your show uh some guests have talked about La Virgen de Guadalupe and doing the pilgrimage. Um I grew up around Madacines, so I'm very familiar familiar with that. Like that feels like something familiar, but it's not something that I would practice or do a pilgrimage around.

Adren 6:16

Right.

Isela 6:17

Um, like for Easter, uh it's mostly focused around food in my family. So like in the uh Guaresma season, which is Lent, I think. Yeah, Lent. Um on Fridays, like we have a lot of foods that that um that we prepare. Um and like the weekend of the Good Friday, Good Saturday, and Easter, it's a whole bunch of food like non-stop since Friday. Uh and uh I like that. I like food, and of course I'm gonna partake. Um but yeah, other than that, uh I like I don't mind going to into like a Catholic church. Uh I don't I I if you would have asked me this uh in high school, I would have said that I was gonna like burn and turn into ashes if I set foot in a Catholic church or any type of church for that matter. But but that's not the case. Um I just I just uh I I like appreciating the architecture of a lot of the Catholic churches, like especially in Mexico. I traveled through Mexico a lot. Um and so I I think that it's it's very just very like fascinating to like how um like the impact of colonialism on on uh and Catholicism uh here in the Americas. And but I'm not gonna get too much into uh that part because uh that would be a whole other podcast. Right. Or a whole other series of podcasts. Yes. Um but where was I going with this? I will yeah, so yeah, like uh I'll go attend a mass, like for a funeral, for weddings, like for special occasions, for like milestone occasions in in the church. And I usually go with like a family member, uh, but I have not like actively gone to church out of my own will, like every Sunday since I was like in high school, maybe after right after I finished confirmation. Uh, but currently, like I don't have a current specific uh spiritual practice. Um I don't necessarily believe in a single deity, or even think that if there is a single deity, that it's a masculine deity. Um so I do believe like in in bigger powers and in like the universe, the cosmos, all that stuff. But I don't the cosmic forces, yes, the universe, etc. Um, but I don't practice a an organ I I I'm not a part of like any organized religion at this point.

From Faith To Agnosticism

Adren 9:18

Right. So thinking about the universe as like a force, what do you believe about it? Does it intervene? Do you believe in like a karma system? Do you believe in like uh synchronicity and serendipity and things like that, or can you like just not to sway your your answer, but thinking along those kinds of concepts, how would you explain it to someone?

Isela 9:48

Um I don't even know how to explain it for myself, really. Cause like some things make total sense to me, like karma, uh reincarnation, um, you know, like us having past lives and how that has been karmically affecting how we're living in our present life, um, like familiar constellations, that kind of thing. Um, yeah, and then like the like just the univ the vibes of the universe and the cosmos, like I they make sense to me, but I can't explain how they make sense to me.

Adren 10:28

Right. So would you say that it's kind of nature-based, with that nature being maybe not like animism, like belief in the spirits that exist in all things from rock to tree, right? But just kind of spiritualism in the sense that there is something guiding the universe.

Isela 10:51

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Like, there's like some forces that are guiding the universe and and the interconnectedness, not to get like too uh public health with the with the one health uh framework, but but no, yeah, like I do believe like in the interconnectedness of of things, not just like physical things, but um environmental and spiritual things. Um but yeah, I would say that that would be it. So let's say something was wrong in your life.

Adren 11:32

What do you do in those moments?

Isela 11:36

Panic, of course. Of course, as uh someone diagnosed with uh general anxiety, then yes, I do panic, even though I'm medicated uh and in therapy, but I will panic. Um I don't I like in when I've gone through like like very stressful situations or like having something like bad happen, uh, or something that I think is bad happening, or spiraling into thinking that something bad is gonna happen. Like I don't I've never been like, oh, I'll just pray and and and uh and not think about it, or um or I'll just go to church and and and do this, or I'm not gonna or I'll sit down and meditate on that. No, like um I I'm um I feel like I check into the rational part of my brain first and rationalize things before searching for like a more spiritual connection or answer or possible uh alignment, if that makes sense. It's the science brain that takes over for it's like rationalizing things that are tangible.

Coping Styles: Science First, Spirit Later

Adren 12:52

Right. I'm just thinking because it sounds more agnostic versus atheists.

Isela 13:01

I would say I am agnostic, um, you know, because atheists, it's not that I I don't think there is a god at all, or that there aren't any gods or goddesses, deities, etc. But yeah, I just don't feel like tied to like Catholicism in this case that which I was raised in, or I haven't wanted to set out and and seek out like other organized religions. So I would say I'm an agnostic.

Adren 13:27

Okay. If we're labeling things, no, no, we don't have to. That's just me trying to make sense.

Isela 13:34

No, yeah, absolutely.

Adren 13:36

Um, and for people who don't know what agnostic really means, I feel like especially in the early 2000s, it was kind of a buzzy word. Like it was agnostic, like agnostic is a meaning not Gnostic meaning of direct knowledge. So like the Gnostics believed that they had direct knowledge, direct experience, and encounters with their faith, and that's kind of where it came from. And in spiritual communities now, you will see a term called UPG, which is unverified personal gnosis. Oh. So that just means that it is a personal experience that is known only by the person who experienced it and practiced it, which is like really fascinating from like a phenomenological perspective. That is.

Isela 14:26

This is this is the first time I'm hearing about this, y'all.

Adren 14:29

Yes, it's a phenomenon of one. Um and but since a lot of alternative spiritual spaces are like sharing knowledges and things that they've created or experienced or whatever, it's people ask, like, is this UPG? Because they want to know if they're following that path. Like, is this canon? Is this part of this practice or story or faith system, or is this like your thing? And it's not to say that it's invalid, right, per se, even though people do say that, but it's not to invalidate that experience, but it's just to say, like, this was my thing that I experienced.

Isela 15:09

Yeah, absolutely. And like, and that made me think of uh uh saying from in Spanish or in Mexico that uh cada cabeza es un mundo, it uh each um each mind is is its own universe, and so like I feel like that that's kind of what it equates to.

Adren 15:29

Yeah, for sure. Alright, so back on track when you participate in this kind of belief system, however that looks for you, whether it's passive or whether there are active things that you do, how do you feel compared to when you were practicing Catholicism growing up?

Constraints, Guilt, And Letting Go

Isela 15:59

When I was growing up, I felt like constrained, um, so to speak, in having to practice Catholicism and uh constrained by the guilt that you're told that you're supposed to be feeling in Catholicism and being repentant of pretty much everything that you do, and having to disclose that to a priest at some point to uh to relieve you of whatever sin you you committed, but that like I don't think it felt I never I don't think I ever like related to people that were uh like going to church and being like very devoted to to God and to Catholicism. Like I couldn't never relate to those people. I would be like, why? Like um, and and for a while I did try uh to like really be in it and like to be, you know, a good Catholic, quote unquote, but um but that that just like never like felt right to me. It never it never like felt right for me. And now I feel like more uh I guess not liberated, but like I feel like I have that freedom to explore like other types of spirituality and to find other spiritual connections that are not necessarily uh like practice in Catholicism. Right. For instance, for instance, uh probably like um like karma, for example. I mean, even though in the Bible it says, you know, like do unto others as to what you want others to do to you or something like that, um even though it's kind of like what karma is, but I wouldn't like be like, oh, the Bible verse is this and that, and like no, I don't go, I don't go by the Bible, right? I go by vibes.

Adren 18:16

Period. And the vibes are vibing.

Isela 18:18

The vibes are indeed vibing, and that's the T.

Adren 18:21

And that's the T. So can you pinpoint or not a specific switch from when you decided Catholicism wasn't for you? Or was it more of like just a fading feeling? Like, did was there a definitive moment when you were like, this is not it?

Isela 18:45

It was definitely in high school when I was doing my uh, I guess like my classes or my preparation for the confirmation. Um that was when I was uh more aligned with the goth persuasion. And I was like very I was I was goth in high school, and so I was like, oh my god, this is a vibe. I like this. But the church does not like this, at least the Catholic Church, like you know, they would I would be like condemned for listening to like heavy metal music because it's deemed satanic.

Adren 19:23

Um which is funny because there's Christian rock now, yes, and some of it is pretty hard.

Syncretism, UPG, And Labels

Isela 19:29

Yeah, I went to like those spiritual retreats. We had to go to a spiritual retreat at one point, and they had like a I guess a Christian rock band, and I was like, oh that is no, don't stop trying to make it happen, but but it happened, so oh well. Um and uh and it was also around the time that I was doing my uh confirmation classes when my parents separated, and so Around that time, you know, it's it was just a lot of questionable. I mean, I was a teenager, I was starting to like trying to find an identity for myself, and that's why I was like leaning more towards like being goth and and and liking like um dark academia, like very um, I was very much into Edgar Allan Poe, of course, very much into vampires, um, and of course, heavy metal, all that stuff, because that felt right for me. It felt correct, it felt soothing, even. Whereas being forced to uh pray to a god a certain way in a certain space, like did not feel like right for me. Right. And also I was like, well, you know, come kind of coming back to that question of like what do you do when something bad happens for you? So with my parents separating, of course, that was like something bad, and like when my dad like completely um turned my world upside down in a way, and funny enough, and and I'm gonna date myself, but uh we like my mom, my brother, and I moved in with one of my aunts, and and my dad, and we were renting a house, and so my dad like rented a smaller house for himself. And uh we moved into my aunt's house the weekend before 9-11 happened. So I was like already like in this like mood, and then 9-11 happens, and I'm like, oh, of course. Just let the world in, you know? Just let the meteor like hit us, like Armageddon. Let's let's just let it happen. Yeah. Um and then around that time, like my mom was trying to also like find a a religious way to cope, I think, with her separation. Uh, and she was like very like adamant that I uh like stay in those classes for the confirmation. It was like a year, I think. Um, and of course, made us go, made me and my brother go to church. Uh, and then we were walking distance from a Catholic church at that point, so like we had to go to church. Right, it was right there. And so, and that was and it was always an argument with my mom because I was always like, We're black. I had this really cool um leather jacket, it was like a trench coat, and it was I loved it. Oh, very underworld, yes, very underworld, very that, very Kate Beckinsale. Um and um and I guess like my mom also was trying was like trying to like looking back at it uh I'm and thinking about it. Um I think like my mom was also trying to find a space outside of the church or another type of spirituality that could help or cope with the separation.

Adren 23:17

Right. And then what is that saying? The sins of the mother, uh the sins of the daughter. So whatever she was going through, you were going through hardcore. Um then That's when you realized it wasn't for you?

Isela 23:43

Yes.

Adren 23:45

So then what did your kind of journey look like after that? Like was did you explore other faiths or religions, or did you just wash your hands with it and start kind of just living as how you are now?

Open Curiosity Without Appropriation

Isela 24:01

Yeah, I uh I did my confirmation and I was like, that's it. Like I am done with the church. Like I made it this far. I did what was expected of me to do. Um and I was like, no, like like you said, basically washed my hands. I'm like, I'm done. I'm done. When um and like even after my confirmation, like my mom still was trying to make me go to church and everything, but um, but uh like eventually like she just gave up on forcing me to go to church on Sundays uh with her, and um and yeah, uh just pretty much vibing since then, since the early aughts.

Adren 24:48

So with the universalism, that's what I'm gonna call it. Yeah. With the universalism that you believe in now, have you found any challenges or struggles with even that belief or with that kind of worldview system that you have for yourself?

Isela 25:10

I don't think I've struggled necessarily. Um, I just feel like I have that openness to keep exploring and to kind of have like that flow of like, oh, like this is this is cool. I'm gonna like learn more about that and be like, oh, okay, so that's cool. It's good for the people, like for example, Judaism. Um, like, oh, that's cool. I like some of their practices and some of their beliefs, but I don't think I can do that, like like convert into that, or uh, or learning about um indigenous peoples and and and some of the beliefs of certain tribes and certain peoples. Um, I was like, okay, well, that makes a lot of sense. And I like and I like how they believe in that, and I can find and I can see myself believing in that too. Um, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna go, you know, be Navajo and appropriate it and appropriate their beliefs or whatever, but um, but no, like I just like respect it and all and be like, yes, and honor it, yeah.

Adren 26:29

Yeah. Closed versus open practices, y'all. We need to all be self-aware. Yes. Like you sell, and follow that example. If the practice is closed, you're not it.

Isela 26:41

Exactly. That space is not for you. I like learning about a lot of like spiritual practices, but I don't necessarily feel like I need to belong in one of them.

Adren 26:53

Right.

Isela 26:55

But yeah, I mean, that's kind of like what my I guess thought or or approach to um spirituality has been since.

Defining Well-Being And Spiritual Health

Adren 27:06

Alright, switching gears a little bit, I'm interested to hear your take on this as a member of my cohort who does health research. What does well-being mean for you?

Isela 27:23

Well-being, the first thing I think of is health, like having optimal health. Uh and that's not just it's physical health, it's mental health, um, financial health. I mean, it's just like whatever stability and safety looks for you. And in how I view it. Um But like, yeah, uh I mean like I understand like the academic uh definitions and and concepts and constructs around it, but like for like for like personally, like that's what it is to me. It's it's a place of safety, it's a place of peace. And you know, as long as it's not negatively impacting others or your or your own body, then that's what well-being is to me.

Adren 28:19

And what about spiritual health? Does that mean anything to you?

Isela 28:23

Yes. Um well, I I um like spiritual health doesn't necessarily mean to, at least to me, that you need to be a part of a religion, right? Or that you need to go to church or temple or whatever, or that you need to completely immerse yourself into an organized religion. It just means that you give yourself that space and that grace to um kind of think about or kind of call upon other possibilities that are outside of your control. Right.

Adren 29:07

So how has your current belief system do you feel if if at all impacted your mental health?

Isela 29:21

I think, well, like my whole mental health journey is is a whole other podcast episode. Uh, but I think that I didn't really take a spiritual approach to it.

Adren 29:38

Right.

Therapy, Stress, And The Body

Isela 29:38

Uh, like it like again being uh uh uh uh having a scientific mind, like I rationalize I everything has a logic before I tune into the spiritual or the or or the curiosity of outside of science. And so that how do I say it? Um like I I don't feel like I had to call upon any type of specific spiritual practices to improve my mental health, you know, just like it's really just talking myself off a ledge when uh when like the anxiety is at its peak.

Adren 30:23

Right.

Isela 30:23

Or not not a literal edge, everybody. I'm okay. Disclaimer, disclaimer, I'm not on the Oregon Mountains by any means trying to to jump off, but um but like grounding myself so that uh my brain and my my thoughts don't spiral into a place that it takes me to in a very negative space. Um but yeah, like uh I don't like thinking about I don't think spirituality has necessarily been hand in hand with uh my mental health.

Adren 31:02

Okay, reframing question.

Isela 31:04

Uh-huh.

Adren 31:05

Maybe a little leading. Do you think leaving organized religion improved your mental health?

Isela 31:14

Oh, a hundred percent. I would be I would have been miserable. Uh probably and not to say that that's what people should be doing, but if that's been different passed for everybody, exactly. Uh I did not like feeling that constraint, and I did not like being forced to practice a religion um for whatever good or bad things uh that religion stands for. Uh I I don't know, like I think I I kind of said that it's not necessarily liberating, but I feel I don't feel constrained. I don't feel boxed in and I have like that ability to explore other possibilities the freedom.

Adren 32:05

So in particular, is there any sort of practice or wellness or well-being, spiritual or otherwise, that you take with you and that you use that you find really beneficial for you?

Isela 32:31

Like honestly, therapy has been very good for me. And I kind of wish that uh like when when I was a like a teenager and looking back, I was like hardcore depressed. I had like hardcore uh depression and major uh depressive episodes. I had a lot of panic attacks, but of course I didn't know that. Uh my family, my like my parents didn't know that, like they're not um they're like the the the typical Mexican mindset that that if you're depressed, you're lazy because you don't want to get out of bed, or that you're just trying to get out of not going to school, or you just need to push through it. Um and so I felt like that kind of uh that kind of practice and mindset growing up with that, like was very detrimental to me. And um I kind of wish that I had started therapy at a much younger age. Right um, I probably would have had like different paths and had made different choices, but um what I've had done to this point has uh has brought me to this space, to talking with you. And so I don't know what would have been, you know, thinking of the of the butterfly effect, and my mom would have like walked me into a therapist's office at that point or with a psychiatrist. Um, but what my mom did do, uh, and in in her way of finding a way to, I don't know, cure me and and get me back into Catholicism, uh she um like she's not like a hardcore Catholic that only sticks to Catholicism, she also has like other spiritual beliefs, and so like in in Mexico, for example, there like a lot of people still believe in curanderos and healers, and um and so my mom took me to healers uh because she thought that honestly that I needed an exorcism, that I was possessed, because I was acting out, because I was dressing all in black, because I was listening to heavy metal. Um, she honestly thought that I was possessed.

Adren 34:58

Well, you don't dress in all black anymore.

Isela 35:02

No, but I do have a a rotten core. A dark little heart that beats. Well, I do want to- Nevermore, nevermore.

Adren 35:16

I do want to come back to this thread. Yes, yes, yes. Which full full disclosure, this is the thread that made me decide to invite Isella to this podcast. So we're gonna talk about that.

Isela 35:29

Yes.

Adren 35:30

But back to therapy. How do you feel participating in therapy contributes to your overall well-being, mental, physical, and spiritual health?

The Healer, Limpias, And Tarot

Isela 35:42

I think the thing was that you know, uh, aside from uh being told to push through whatever it is it was that I was feeling growing up, I was also keeping a lot of things in. And so uh in not expressing myself um in a healthy way, in in like shoving all my emotions and trying to compartmentalize aspects of my life and uh and and things that were happening around me. Um I think that because I kept bottling up everything, um, I was uh I was getting sick a lot. So I've I have I had like a lot of digestive issues for a while. Um, of course, I would get full-blown panic attacks out of nowhere. Um and so it was just like not sustainable. It was it like it got to a point where it was I got a really bad panic attack, and my mom was like, uh, I think now we can uh take it to a psychiatrist in my mid-30s, of course. But you know, better late than never. But I guess she saw me like like really, really bad, and it was she was like that curandera is not cutting it, yeah, exactly. Western medicine, like it's time for the western medicine now, not even the Pope can can do this, and um and so in in that, and also like based on what we know about in an academic level, like um not having a healthy outlet for your emotions takes a toll on the stress levels that you experience in your body, which then manifests uh at a cellular level, and that's why we get sick and we somaticize a lot of things. And by somaticizing, meaning that whatever we're feeling, that we're trying not to let other people know that we're feeling uh it's gonna come out as a stomachache, it's gonna come out as migraines, it's gonna come out as joint pain, joint pain, exactly. Um, and so your body's gonna find an outlet to let you know that you need to find a way to be okay, right? And so for me, like therapy and learning how to express myself has been a game changer, honestly. Right, and so having that safe space, having that safe person, and eventually finding safe people that I can express uh myself with and um people that I can openly talk about my mental health and my mental health practices, um, that has also been like a huge game changer. So don't bottle up things, guys. It's not good.

Adren 38:42

Once to pick that thread up, stress is also directly linked to a lot of mental, physical, and behavioral health outcomes, including like let's start with the obvious, stress is linked to substance use, stress is linked to anxiety, stress is linked to depression, and all of those exist as an epidemic. But then stress is also research has shown, which I'm not gonna look up the studies for this episode since it's not a long, steep episode. But you don't have to take my word for it, look into it yourself.

Isela 39:21

Um credible sources, please.

Adren 39:24

Yes. I don't know what those sources are right now, to be honest.

Isela 39:28

Uh uh honestly, yeah. Anyway, that's a whole other podcast, too.

Adren 39:34

Um but stress is linked to diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular disease, pretty much any long term chronic illness that you could have, stress is linked chronic inflammation diseases. Because stress which is funny because this is what my master's thesis was partially focused on like a whole chapter. And what my work still looks at. Stress is your body internalizing something as an actual threat to your existence. Right. So it triggers fight, flight, freeze or fawn. There's four now, y'all.

Isela 40:16

Yeah, there's there's four.

Adren 40:18

It's triggers those responses, fight or flight.

Isela 40:22

Um Yeah, we're putting our parasympathetic systems through it, y'all. Yeah. For real.

Adren 40:27

So But it does manifest in the body. It takes it does take a toll. So stress mitigation, relieving your stress, finding healthy outlets to cope with stress or to cope with life is very crucial to your mental health, your physical health. And I would argue because of the nature of this podcast for your spiritual health as well.

Isela 40:48

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Adren 40:50

Um But yes. Thank you for sharing about how therapy has helped you.

Isela 40:56

Yes.

Adren 40:58

So my next question we can get a little bit more into the exorcism if you're okay.

Isela 41:03

Yeah.

Adren 41:04

Um But you can answer however you want. Have you had a spiritual experience that felt extraordinary, miraculous, or unexplainable? Or not?

Isela 41:16

Well, going back to these healers. Um, you know, like I said, like my mom was finding like ways to, I guess, cope with her, with everything that she was, whatever it was she was feeling around her the separation. Um she was also like looking, you know, into healers to to see if she needed, you know, like a cleanse, like, or you know, whatever it is that a he that a healer would tell her to to do to get rid of whatever bad juju she was probably holding on to, or that could have caused the separation probably, or that could fix the whatever it is that needed fixing. Um and so her and another one of her friends, another one of her friends was also kind of like um going through marital problems at the same time as her. And so she was she's also a very like spiritual person and and looking for and would go to healers a lot. Um, and so like my mom and her friend like started like kind of um healer shopping, I guess. I don't know how else to start like they were like going like from heal like seeing which healer was going to they would vibe with. And so they found this healer in Juarez, but it was like in in a very I don't want I don't think it's where it says uh le la biblia. I don't like if there's a uh a very uh specific mountain in Juarez that has um La Biblia is la verdad. La Biblia, la verdad, Lele, the Bible is the truth, read it, um, and you can see it from pretty much any point.

Adren 43:03

Um you can see it from the United States, yeah.

Accuracy Of Readings And Career Path

Isela 43:06

Yeah, uh you can see it from I-10. Um, I want to say it was like in in an area like that, like very in the outskirts of Juarez, like it was a very it was very much a colonia, like very uh a very makeshift area. Um, and so before going into the healer's home, we uh we would go like the first time that my mom took me with this person, uh we stopped by uh one of the corner stores, Tua del Rio, I think it was, uh, or Superet, whatever it was, um, to pick up uh Akawama, uh a huge bottle of those, like what is it, the the tall boys? Uh like it's a huge beer and a pack of Marlboros. And I was like, okay, my mom doesn't drink, she smokes, but she doesn't smoke Marlborough's at the time. She smoked, and I was like, uh, or I was like, is this a test for me? Because I was already drinking and smoking at this point. I was like, is she testing me? Like, what is going on? Like, because she did tell me. And I was like, fine. Like, I was like, fine. Uh I was just like, I'll just see, just like you know, to please her or to like, you know, not fight with her. Like, I was just like, I'll just go, fine, whatever. Um, as long as it's not a church. Um, but um, and so we go and then we keep driving. We pick up the the beer and the cigarettes, we keep driving, and then there's like this uh this house. Um, and it was already like a dirt road at that point, and we go in, and it's like you can smell the incense like before you walk into the house. Like it was like very uh very witchy, honestly. There were plants, there was incense.

Adren 45:13

Do you know if the incense was kopal?

Isela 45:15

It was not kopal. Okay, no, it was not kopal, because kopal is like more pungent, yeah, and it's really like really hits you in the face. And I love kopal. Yeah, um, but no, it was like incense, and and you could smell like uh like essenti- I guess essential oils she might have used. And so this healer um was a trans woman, I come to find out. And uh she was very tall. Uh uh she was um uh brown skin and with box dyed blonde hair, poorly done, but she felt fabulous, and she always had like a high ponytail, like those high messy buns and bangs. And she always wore like these really like flowy, like uh Stevie Nicks type of outfits. Um, and she always had a cigarette in her hand, and like she was she was always like giggling and everything, uh, and and she was just a good time, honestly. Yeah, but like when it was time to like get down to the nitty-gritty, uh still with a cigarette in her hand, she would grab uh like a bunch of of herbs and do like a cleanse, a limpia, and she would like do her thing, and she also did like some prayers, uh like like Catholic type of prayers, I guess, like to to God, uh to the virgin, to saints.

Adren 46:50

So, would you say that this qualifies as santeria a little bit?

Isela 46:53

No, it's not santeria, no. Um, given the artifacts that I remember seeing in her house, it was not santeria. Okay.

Adren 47:02

Um do you know what the herbs were by chance?

Isela 47:05

I don't remember.

Adren 47:07

Okay. I'm just curious.

Church Plus Folk Healing And Syncretism

Isela 47:08

No, yeah, yeah, if if I could remember, I would happily tell you. But it was yeah, it was just a bunch of herbs, and like she was just she had me um get into this like tub. It was like those um little steel tubs. Uh wash tub. Like a wash tub, exactly. And uh it was filled with water and it had like some type of essential oils in it. And she had me like take my take off my shoes and it was freezing because it was like what was it, like January, February more or less, and it's when it's colder here in this area. And I was freezing. I was like, do I really have to take off my shoes? It's 45 degrees, seriously, and then like out there in the boonies, like it was even more cold, right? And um, and like she had no heater, obviously, and and you know, it was just vibes with her, right? And so she's like, it's okay, it's okay, just just dip your toes, it's fine. And so I got it, and of course, I was freezing and I was shaking, but because I was so cold, and so then she starts like pounding me with these herbs, um, like head to toe, and what like sideways, and like she was like also praying while she did that, and then um uh and yeah, that was it, and we left, and uh again my mom took me a few more times with her. Um, and on one of those times that we went up with her, um she was like, Have you ever had your cards read? And I was like, No, do you want to? I was like, Yes, and uh like I didn't even ask my mom if it was okay, I was just like, Yes. And but she was fine with it anyway, uh, because you know, well, she took me there.

Adren 49:06

Part of the services that she How do you draw the line between spiritual exorcism from a faith from a folk healer to tarot?

Isela 49:15

Like that makes sense, but anyway, um, but either way, every time we went to go see um this healer, we would go to the store, pick up uh pick up her beer, pick her a beer and um and a pack of cigarettes because that's the the only form of payment that she accepted. Yeah. And um, she never accepted cash. Um, she just wanted her tall boy and cigarettes. And I was like, work.

Adren 49:46

That's actually I don't want to say this with any authority, but through the grapevine and things that I know and places I participated in, that's very common. Yeah. That they don't take a lot of people who participate as healers won't take financial compensation. Right. A lot will. It depends, I guess, on who you are and where you're going or whatever. But even um like the Voodoo Museum in New Orleans, for example, the money goes to I guess like running the museum, but then a lot of the money is just donated because they believe in like the Voodoo Pantheon. So a lot of that money goes straight to offerings for various Loa, various spirits, various beings. Um I don't know where I was going with this.

Isela 50:49

But basically Yeah, like it's it's not unheard of for a healer to not accept cash.

Adren 50:55

Right.

Isela 50:56

Yeah, and like even like if if they wouldn't ask for, you know, food or beer or whatever, like you you still offer something in exchange for that, I guess, service for uh for being seen to be healed of whatever. Um I don't know if I ever got cured of whatever my mom thought I had, or if I'm wearing black.

Adren 51:24

Right now you're wearing a colorful flannel.

Isela 51:27

Thank you. Uh I love it, Swarm. Um, but no, I still wore all black for years, and when I were all black, I'm like, yes, I love this. This is my comfort zone. But I also like colors, I like colorful, colorful prints. I love a floral print.

Adren 51:43

Right.

Isela 51:44

So yeah.

Not Everyone Has Miracles Or Ghosts

Adren 51:47

So while you were going through this, and you can decide if this was oh, what's the word? I don't want to say hallucinatory, but you can decide the reality or not. If anything, but when you were going through this, did you feel anything like during the process that felt spiritual or that felt like something happening, or did you just sit there and take it because your mom said and it didn't really affect you at all?

Isela 52:22

I don't think I like I said, I don't know what my mom thought I was possessed with, or what she thought I was experiencing, like you know, just being a highly moody teenager, right? Just being very straight up against all type of authority, right, um, all type of um things that constraining that I felt constraining for me not wanting to follow any rules other than the rules of science and of the darkness, because I was already a big science nerd in in high school, yeah. And um, and uh I also wanted to be uh a coroner, I wanted to be a medical examiner when I was in high school because autopsies are super cool, um, but that's also something else that we could talk about at another time.

Adren 53:19

Well, imagine being a coroner and also seeing spirits.

Advice For Questioning Faith

Isela 53:23

Yeah, yeah, that would be so cool, but um, but yeah, like I don't remember like feeling I don't know what I what I was supposed to feel, honestly. Like, yeah, like her like passing the herbs throughout my body and her doing the purse. I was just like standing there waiting for something to happen and nothing I didn't feel anything happen, but something probably did happen. Like, and it was like a a slow um process because I kept like my mom kept taking me to this to this healer, and we did a lot of things uh with a lot of like different types of pears that she was trying out while she was like giving me a uh a cleanse with the herbs and in the in with my feet in the in the tub of water with whatever oils. Um yeah, honestly, I don't know. I never had like I felt like something like a in like any epiphanies. I didn't like feel uh an evil spirit or sprite leave my body like in ghost or like in the exorcist, like the demon just like leaving the body. Um I was like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be feeling, but you know, whatever. I'm here. Uh and I really like that healer, she was really nice, she was really cool, she was very funny.

Adren 55:01

Was her card reading accurate?

Isela 55:03

You know what? Yes. At the time I thought it was bullshit, but like now thinking about it and of other card readings I've had, I'm like, oh my god, that was accurate. Because um, in the card reading that in I think it was the first one that she gave me. Um I think I asked like something about what what I'm gonna major in. And she's like, Well, I mean, you are a science person, but uh, but you're gonna end up in the humanities, you're gonna have to end up doing humanity like more work in the humanities, more social type of work. And I was like, nah, I'm gonna be a medical, I am a person of science. I have a bench science, which is in in that time was the only type of science for me. Um I was like, nah, I'm going to be a chemist and a medical examiner and an alchemist. Like, I wanted to like bring alchemy back. Uh uh, yeah.

Adren 56:06

You're not the only one. I know several people who are into that.

Isela 56:08

Yeah, no, yeah, I love alchemy. And I was like, no, like that is I'm never gonna do that. That's so wrong. Um, but then like as as I've had other card readings throughout my life, and like uh like now thinking of all the paths and choices that I've made that have led me to here, I'm like, oh my gosh, she was right.

Adren 56:34

All those years ago.

Isela 56:35

All those years ago, like she was right. Like, I'm not a bench scientist now. Uh I'm in public health, which is it, I mean, it's it is a science, but it's not a a hundred percent bench science. Like there, uh I'm I lean more toward the community health uh type of science type of science, a type of practice that is more like socially um based, I guess, uh and more and with uh more social practice and you know, and and in working in nonprofit with nonprofits and in nonprofit spaces, and uh yeah, just very community-oriented on like, oh my god, she was right. She was right.

Adren 57:23

A side note, I need to do an episode on what public health is because it's so very, very broad.

Isela 57:29

Yeah, and we were talking about that the other day.

Adren 57:31

Yes, like you could do bench science and make an entire public health career on bench science. Absolutely. You can do only statistics like for epidemiology, there's like legal policy issues, there's so much. Before I forget, uh Do you happen to know why your mom chose to go to a faith healer both for the issues she was facing and also for what she thought you were going through instead of the church?

I Wish I Knew Other Religions

Isela 58:05

I think it was more supplemental to the church. Okay uh like given like like in from what I remember, like her her, I guess, behaviors were like like yeah, she she felt like attending church every Sunday was gonna help and praying the rosary and and whatever. But I felt like the the healer approach was also kind of like complementary to kind of like see if the two type of spiritual practices together would relieve me of whatever possession I had. Um I laugh now, but like I I I seriously think that my mom thought I w I was possessed with a demon.

Adren 58:51

Right. What I think though, like the syncretism is very common in Mexican Catholicism. Like a lot of Mexican Catholic holidays that are sponsored by the Cat the Diocese of Mexico are folk holidays and folk practices that are not necessarily or explicitly Catholic.

Isela 59:15

Oh, yeah, and that we can go into like a whole other episode on that on Tonancine being portrayed as the Virgin de Guadalupe, so that the indigenous people could like to draw people into the the church and to convert them a little bit more easy, and yeah.

Adren 59:34

Well, in Santeria, a lot of people don't like to think about it, came from Catholicism. It did. It means of the saints, they're calling on the saints. They have all the candles and all the saint cards that are in the churches. The only difference is one's considered evil.

Isela 59:52

Mm-hmm.

Adren 59:53

But it's basically it's basically the same thing. And if someone thinks that that's not true, please come on my show and call.

Isela 1:00:00

Yes, please. Oh leave it in the comments. We're open, we're open to being corrected.

Adren 1:00:07

Right. We're all learning and growing. So have you ever had any other kinds of spiritual experiences that felt extraordinary?

Isela 1:00:19

Not really. Like I don't like I hear of like a people like going through like like uh like experiencing uh like seeing ghosts or feeling a presence and and all that, but I don't think I ever have, and I'm like, either I'm a ghost, I'm some sort of spiritual entity, or um, or I'm just like so in tune with them that it doesn't surprise me or shock me, or they're not real, or they're not real. I mean the possibilities are endless, but I've never had like this earth-shattering um ghost seeking or ghost feeling uh moment or like any unexplainable thing that uh that would be like miraculous. I don't know, like I don't think I've ever because if I had felt something like that, I would know.

Adren 1:01:27

Right.

Isela 1:01:28

Who would and I would not shut up about it, but I haven't.

Adren 1:01:35

I like that. That's very real. I don't like that you haven't experienced it. I'm neutral on that front, but I like that you're real about it. Yeah. Um I don't know. There's so much because if if you or anyone heard my last episode, my friend has had a lot of experience. Yes. So I'm like, I don't know what that means that some people have so many and some people don't.

Isela 1:01:59

Exactly. That's why I say like either I'm like very in tune with the spirits or with the spiritual realm that it's not shocking to me, or I don't perceive it as something freaky or something that scares me, or it's it just doesn't exist in my realm.

Adren 1:02:20

Right. So normally I would end this podcast by asking questions about your practices and your beliefs, but non-applicable, right? Which is totally fine.

Isela 1:02:37

Like I want I want I believe in science. Thank you.

Adren 1:02:43

So instead, let me ask you Is there any advice that you have for someone who might be questioning their faith? Because a lot of people I feel will say, Well, you you just have to put your faith in God, like whatever. A lot of people on my show have questioned their faith and returned to it or have gone on to another faith. But you are a little different, so I would like to get your advice on that.

Isela 1:03:21

Yeah, so um, I don't know because I've also questioned myself like, should I be practicing a religion? Like, like, am I missing out? If is there something that I missed that I'm not like getting and that I should be doing? Um, but then I'm like, not really, like, I feel okay with myself, with being with myself, with uh being at peace with the people I want to be at peace with. Um, and it's just okay to question. Question your life, question your choices, question your practices. Um, not to say that you're doing anything wrong per se, but it's okay to be like, okay, what if I try this? Or what if I learn more about this other religion? Or what do like if you're a scientist, what have other scientists been uh practicing? Like spiritually, what have their spiritual practices been?

Adren 1:04:26

When historically, culturally, whether their belief was sincere or not, we can debate for years. Oh, for sure, right? But historically, most scientists have professed a religion because that was the standard belief. Yeah. So it is interesting to see like this branch away between the two now. Yeah.

Isela 1:04:47

But I mean, it's okay, like for example, me being Catholic, it's okay to question Catholic the the the religion that you grew up with, or that you were indoctrinated in or whatever. It's okay to question it, and it's okay to question if it's okay for you, because that might lead you to something that really is for you.

Adren 1:05:12

Right.

Isela 1:05:13

I think I think that's the advice I could give.

Adren 1:05:20

I like that. I agree. Even if you think you've already found the answers, keep questioning. Because you'll either confirm it every time, or maybe one time, and that one time will be enough to change everything in your life, you will find that it is no longer true. Yeah. So what is one thing that you wish you knew earlier about religion in your life?

Isela 1:05:48

That there are more religions out there. Um, you know, I feel like when you grow up in a certain religion, like that's all you know, and that's all you're told that you should know. And that everything outside of that religion is bad, or that it's invalid, or that it's just unholy, or whatever. Um, and I guess, yeah, I would have liked liked to learn about other religions as I was growing up because yeah, and especially like here in the borderlands, like uh Catholicism is very predominant, and so you're not exposed to many other religions necessarily. Like I was in my mid-20s when I found out that there was a Jewish temple in El Paso.

Adren 1:06:44

Is there more than one? I actually don't know. I know there's only one mosque.

Isela 1:06:50

There's a mosque, and I think there's I don't know. At that time there was one. I don't know if there's another temple or if there's one in Las Cruces. I'm not sure. I would have to check that. But only because I came across uh Jewish people.

Adren 1:07:09

Right.

Isela 1:07:10

And I was like, oh, I didn't know there were Jewish people in El Paso.

Adren 1:07:16

Well, we only have one Buddhist center in El Paso, and it's not even a temple, it's a Buddhist cultural center, and I'm pretty sure the I'm not entirely sure why it's here, but I think that it's because of the Bhutanese student population.

Isela 1:07:33

That would make sense, but it might predate it might predate I don't know.

Adren 1:07:39

We have one, that's all I know. Yeah, and I know some of my peers who were from Bhutan would go there.

Isela 1:07:46

Um but yeah, I I just wish I I knew about more religions and you know have that freedom to I guess explore them at a younger age because I I it wasn't until like I was like a full-grown adult that uh that I started like being like more curious and wanting to learn more about other religions. Right. Alright.

Adren 1:08:19

Do you have any final words of wisdom for the listeners?

Isela 1:08:25

Am I wise? Yes. Um, I think just be open to change. Don't feel like you need to be stuck not just in one form of religion, but also in one type of practice that you have. Um like, for example, if you're a runner, you might want to try yoga, for example. And that might lead you to other things and and expand your curiosity into other forms of exercise, for example, or for or with foods. Just stay curious.

Adren 1:09:05

Right. Do you have any cautionary tales or things that you think people should be aware of or cautious of?

Isela 1:09:16

Be cautious of colts.

Adren 1:09:18

Right.

Gratitude And Closing Blessing

Isela 1:09:19

And of being uh quick, can I tell a quick story? Yes. Uh a couple of years ago, my brother, my mom, and I went to Mexico City. And we went uh um went to a little town outside of the city called Deposlan in the state of Morelos. It's gorgeous, it's a gorgeous, gorgeous uh town, and it has a um like it's an archaeological site at the top of a mountain. Uh, it's very famous for the ice cream in that town. Um and so we were like in the little um uh town plaza, and uh there was like this market going on, and there were there were a lot of um uh folks from India that were like present like doing some dances and some like ceremonies, I guess, and you know the people were around them watching. Um and so um we had just we were like okay, well let's just sit down, have some elotes, and and just you know, chill before heading back to Mexico City, and so uh I I told her brother, you go get the drinks, I'll get the elotes or the corn. Um, and my mom said, I'll go find us a spot to sit. And so she did. She sat down next to an Indian woman, and this Indian woman was was like uh starting to to talk to her and ask her questions, and they were just all of a sudden like had deep in conversation about like karma and the universe and whatever. And then she and then I see I see my mom when I came back with the food. I I saw my mom with a book. I was like, Oh, what is this? And and I sit down and I was like, Oh, hi, here, here is my food. Hi, how are you? Like saying hi to that other woman, and she was like, and then after that, she was like, I I um just um just let me know what you think. She told my mom, just let me know what you think, and and I was like, What was that? And she was like, Oh, she's just a nice woman from India, and she was telling me about and we were talking about karma and all this stuff. I was like, Mom, these are Hare Krishna's. And she's like, Oh, really? Yeah, and yeah, just be careful of the type of literature you're handing it out, and um I mean, feel free to explore it, but don't feel obligated to take literature from people, to take anything from people, really. Just you know, just trust your gut.

Adren 1:12:16

But for the record, I want the literature.

Isela 1:12:19

I know you do. I want it, I know you do, and people seem to hand it out to you also.

Adren 1:12:24

They do. So if you if you have the literature, please send it to me. If you are in a cult, well, I guess most people who are in cults don't know.

Isela 1:12:38

Yeah, exactly. They don't know they're in a cult.

Adren 1:12:41

If you are in an alternative spiritual religious practice that people say is really out there, please come on my show.

Isela 1:12:53

Yes, we would love to listen.

Adren 1:12:55

I would like to have a Zoom call and hear your story. Yes. Um all right, this is your last chance. Uh-huh. Is there anything else that you would like to say, share, or add?

Isela 1:13:12

Nothing, just thank you for having me. I don't have anything to plug like in other podcasts, but it was lovely to spill the tea. The religiosity, even though I'm not religious at all. But, you know, we're vibing.

Adren 1:13:27

But you were.

Isela 1:13:28

Mm-hmm.

Adren 1:13:29

I think we're still in a time where a majority of people grew up religiously, and that's part of the tea.

Isela 1:13:37

Exactly.

Adren 1:13:38

There's religious trauma, there's just religious exit without all the dramatics.

Isela 1:13:45

Oh, yeah, yeah. My exit was I like nothing traumatic happened to me, thankfully, but it was just like, nah, this is just not for me. And if it's not for you, it's okay to walk away from it.

Adren 1:13:56

Right. Your family might not think so.

Isela 1:13:58

Oh no, they yeah, exactly. That's exactly why I was taken to a healer. Because how could I not want to go to church?

Adren 1:14:07

Right. Well, thank you so much, Isella, for being here.

Isela 1:14:12

Thank you, Adrian. This was fun.

Adren 1:14:14

It's been a lot of fun. And to the listeners, thank you for listening to another episode. If you made it this far, we really appreciate your time.

Isela 1:14:23

Yes, thanks for hanging out.

Adren 1:14:25

We hope that you enjoyed this episode. May you be happy, healthy, and well. Bye.