Guarding Against Camp Abuse: Parental Guidance for Safer Summers

On The Still Waters Podcast, Teri and Julie shift from their abuse series to discuss child safety at summer camp, urging parents not to assume camps—especially church camps—are automatically safe. They advise investigating who camp directors report to, whether a board provides oversight, and whether the camp follows clear standards and mandatory reporting to law enforcement. They warn about sexual abuse risks, including “sexual exposure,” and criticize pornography-focused confession circles that prompt kids to share explicit experiences in groups. They stress that counselors and staff should receive safety training to prevent and recognize abuse, including emotional abuse and parental interference, and they highlight a case involving overnight interrogation, cover-ups, and a predator harming multiple boys. They also caution against private post-camp adult–minor communication and recommend teaching sexual integrity with hope and recovery.

00:00 Morning Catch Up
02:20 Why Talk About Camp
03:27 Camp Memories
07:49 When Camp Raises Flags
11:10 Accountability Matters
14:35 Porn Confession Risks
17:45 Counselor Safety Training
19:28 Safety Training Matters
20:52 Emotional Abuse Stories
24:15 When Adults Protect Predators
27:45 Mandatory Reporting Red Flags
29:49 Confession Circles Risks
31:00 Porn Exposure Reality
32:36 After Camp Contact Boundaries
35:31 Integrity Curriculum And Hope
38:26 Closing Resources And Farewell 

Contact The Still Waters Team 

www.stillwaterslife.com

Email us at:

• Julie@stillwaterslife.com
• Rufus@stillwaterslife.com
• Teri@stillwaterslife.com
• Abrielle@stillwaterslife.com

Let us help you find healing and wellness at The Still Waters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Hello, are you awake? I'm not. No, I'm awake. Yeah. I'm awake. Coffee cup number two. Real deal.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Well, I had this at 7 a.m. and it had lots of caffeine in it.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Oh, did it have lots of caffeine?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

It wasn't coffee, but it was caffeine.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Caffeine. Yeah, let me close the door because Lucy seems to find things to bark at today. Hold on. Oh no. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

My nose is running. Oh, is it? Yeah. I thought I was getting a cold, but I think it's just spring is starting to pop up around here. Although everything's starting to bloom bloom. Yep. And so because I'm like it's been several days, you know, but it's I'm not sick. It doesn't get any worse. And but it just drip, drip.

unknown 1:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Wilson kind of thought he had a cold coming on. And of course now he's out in California. He's feeling great.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

The weather's just like Yeah, I'm sure it's beautiful out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

You know? You know, you lived out there. Yeah. But yeah, I thought I was allergies for him too. Not a yeah. But fortunately, I don't I don't really get allergies. I I had allergy shots years and years ago. Uh-huh. And it I have never experienced. Uh I went through all that. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. But anyway, yeah, I'm willing to have a conversation today as long as I could sip coffee now and then.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

That's not a problem.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Excuse me before I answer that. So um I was gonna ask you, um uh Melissa, can I go ahead and ask her to come on? Or do you I mean, has she seen clients yet?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

She hasn't seen she just observed yesterday with me a client. Okay. So I think probably she is ready. She's ready to to do that. Yeah, if you want to try to set up something with her, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Okay, because she reached out to me and asked me some questions about marketing. She asked, she told me she asked. And I was like, You're not asking the right person, but okay, I'll tell you what I did. But anyway, I told her. I said, Well, we want to have you come on the podcast to kind of introduce you again whenever you're ready. And she said she was fine, but I didn't know if you were gonna do more on the website first.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

So yeah, I want to do more on the website. I wanted to introduce her and and and I told her too. I said, you know, um you get out there and put and put yourself out there. And if there's client, if there's things come along and I can send them your way, I'll send them your way. But yeah, and I told her about this platform, you know, is free to everybody, nobody's paying to have this. Um, this what's you know, except Luke's Luke's charge to me. But I said, I don't think it's fair, you know, to charge people for when they don't have this massive amount of money coming in from this. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Okay. Okay. Well, I just wanted to make sure uh and see if you were okay with me going ahead and getting her at least on the calendar to do that. So sure. And I have that other lady that rescheduled with me. So I hope that she will follow through. So I think that'll be a good one.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Is is this the one who is this her third time to yeah?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

I don't know if she's just super busy or if she's nervous because she she acts like she's real excited about coming on. So I think she's just really busy because she has a job full time as she works as a cybersecurity expert. That's cool. Yeah. And she was in the military, and that's even cooler. Then she runs this nonprofit for people that have been trafficked, and she was trafficked. And when you see her, you would never you would think she was a Gothard person. She has really long hair, she wears dresses all the time, you know. Um, I don't know if she wears makeup or not, but like you would think that she's from that background. Interesting. But yeah, so I'm I, you know, I'm I'm thinking, I don't think a Gothard person would be allowed to run a cybersecurity business. So well, it'll be interesting to find out uh if if if if she has some kind of a religious well, she does have a religious background because her nonprofit's called Lion 95. Lion 95. And it's it's she's she has said that uh this was a you know a calling to start this nonprofit from God and all that. So um I've just noticed that she's hit or miss with her own um like on LinkedIn every once in a while she's out there, but she's just uh she just strikes me as somebody who's incredibly busy. And she's younger too. She's she's probably raising kids still. So if she has kids, I think, but I don't know that yet. So I don't know that well. But we'll see. Anyway, eventually I'm gonna get her.

unknown 5:30

Okay, yeah, just go trap her.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah. So we're so we're set down to do it next Thursday. So anyway, we'll see. Okay, so you want to talk about camp. How do you want to go about this?

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Uh, I was thinking that we we talk about well, it's that getting that time of year again where you know the the advertisements are gonna start coming out for camp. And because that we and I, you and I know the good, the bad, and the ugly of that, we just want to put out the warnings again. Okay, okay. So uh and I probably need to be done by 10 till okay, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Um so I can get ready for this. I'm just making sure that this is actually recording. It says it's recording. Okay. Um all right. Um, so I didn't put any thought into this at all. I just figured we'd have a conversation. I figure that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

There's we we we think this all the time.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah, and I did look at like our tip sheet and stuff, but yeah, I don't have it printed out in front of me.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Okay, are you ready? Because what I what I have about Tristan, which I'm not gonna, of course, mention his name, but I'm gonna mention a court case. Yeah. Um so uh Lashante and Eli both went to another court hearing for Tristan last week. Okay, okay. And this time LaShante got to speak, and what she wanted to ask was that Tristan make sure that Eli's name is cleared. Because if you remember, you may know you Joe was like, Well, you believe Eli, and I said, Yes, I do, and so does the court. So I guess Eli Eli made an incredible speech to the judge, to the court. Uh Lashante did too. The judge was so impressed with Eli. And even the parole officer for Tristan went up to Eli and said, You are remarkable. Wow. That we hardly ever get to see anybody that shows up at this court who has risen above. So we rarely see it. Yeah. That's the that's Tristan's parole officer. Wow. That's impressive.

unknown 7:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Oh, it's very impressive. So uh Tristan, you know, Tristan did um own everything, and he looked at uh Lashante and Eli and said, I take full responsibility for everything I have done. Okay. And uh Lashante said and Eli both that they saw just a glimmer of the old Tristan that they knew from a long time ago. The good, the good or the bad? The good one, the good one. Okay, okay, and so he had is he's court-ordered to continue therapy. He has to. I think they come back in six months to see how he's doing. He's gonna go home. Wow. He's gonna go home with those kids still in the house, with the kids still in the house, and the and that's what the parents wanted. And the judge said, Okay, but they're coming, he's coming back in six months to see how that's gonna go. Because the judge, I according to LaShante's attorney, the judge said, We've got it, we've got to see how this program's working and let it go back. Right. Otherwise, we're not gonna know. And uh, but but um Tristan's parents were Tristan's mother wouldn't even look at LaShante. Uh, Tristan's father got up and and said that um they tried to talk to LaShante at church, but they wouldn't meet with them, and eventually they left the church. Said this to the judge, which implies they just abandoned, you know, everything. Right. So the judge looked at Tristan's dad and said, Well, I got a question for you. Are you still with that church? And he goes, Yes, I am. And the it and LaShante said the judge kind of looked up and went, huh. Because what what that said is I'm still with the church that harbors predators that hurt that hurt my child. That hurt my child. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 9:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

These people don't have brains.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

They are so there, I mean, it's cult.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

It is I don't suppose any of I don't suppose any of the other church people were there.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Oh no, but I'm sure they will be indoctrinated as to the real truth about it, you know. But hopefully Tristan has had enough therapy. He's 20 now. Yeah. And he can see it. I don't know. I don't know. He's gonna go back under the home of his parents, and who knows how that's gonna look.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Oh man, I can't imagine. Yeah, I can't. I imagine. Okay. Well, I'm glad I'm proud of it. I I don't even know Eli and I'm proud of him.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah, he's he oh my goodness, it's just awesome. So proud of him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Okay, well, let's get started. Okay, and I'll try not to cough or sneeze through this.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Okay, I'll try not to, but I'm I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Um, welcome back to the Stillwaters podcast today. Julie's with me. Welcome, Julie. I'm so glad to have you back here.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Thank you. It's it's good to be here. And it's so early in the morning, and I have I have coffee cup number two in hand. Just so you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

I'm glad that you have your coffee so that you can be coherent while we're talking.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Well, yes, I've been accused of that. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Oh my well, it's March March 26th when this episode is going to air or is being aired. And I can't believe that we are more than halfway through. Well, yeah, we're at the end of March, and that April is upon us. So um, and all the spring stuff that comes with spring is here.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

I know, but you know what the best part about this is, Terry, is March. March, we both celebrated birthdays in March. Yes, I think the most special people, some of the most special people are born in March.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Oh, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

I agree 100%. I mean, we just kind of got specialized.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

That's right. And I'm also like this one day thing is no, like we do the whole month.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Oh, the whole month. That's that's what March March people do, and we introduce spring to the to the United States. Uh-huh. I mean, this is a task. March madness, too. March madness? I mean, look at all that we bring to people. Uh so you know, I I know we're humble about it, but I think we truly hate to once in a while just let people know that we've been specialized.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yes. And we accept all gifts.

unknown 12:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Anyway, oh my. Well, I hope you had a good birthday. I know I did. I got to see my daughter. I sure did. Got to see my Nashville girl that came up to visit, and we had a good time. Went to this place where there was like gigantic cake. Gigantic cake. Gigantic cake, like three layers of cake and stuff in between each layer. It was delicious. I haven't had that much cake in a long time.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

So wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Anyway, there was other stuff there too, but we we really enjoyed our cake. Good.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

You should you should enjoy cake on your birthday.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

All right. So today we're gonna talk about something a little bit different. So uh the last several episodes of the Stillwaters Podcast have been um basically it's been a series on abuse, and we've been talking about the different types of abuse in um all the ramifications that can occur because of that when a kind of abuse takes place. So today we're kind of taking a little turn and talking about something that's abuse related. Um, and that is we're gonna talk about camp because we've been vocal in the past about camp. And it's that time of year, again, where um kids are starting to get registered for camp and parents are starting to pay for camp. And we have a real um heart for making sure that kids and parents, well, actually, parents are aware of some things uh uh regarding camp. And rather than just taking your child and dumping them somewhere for a week, oh my. I mean, honestly, my my kids went to camp and I always enjoyed it when they went to camp. I remember when the third one could go with them and I had a whole week to myself. It was awesome. I remember one year that my husband was out of town that week, and so I was really at home alone, and it was great.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

So okay, yeah. Well, I I I remember the first time. Well, all of our kids went to camp. They all went to camp, they all love camp. And I I'm I'm glad they got to to have those experiences. Uh, I do remember when I took Luke to camp the first time, he was 10. Oh wow. And and uh, and of course they'd have been to camp to camp to where his siblings in bed, you know, uh before him. And I just thought, well, he's gonna be the only child who's not gonna make it. I'm gonna need to come back and get him. He's gonna miss me so much. And I was I was shocked. I was just shocked. He held it in for a whole week and and and and and didn't have to call me.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Well, that's really good because that was not my experience with one of mine. Okay, my middle child Rachel went to camp by herself for the first time because the younger one was too little and the older one was at a different camp. He was at Boy Scout camp, he couldn't do both, and he had to go to Boy Scout camp because his dad was a scout master, so he had to go with him. Yeah, and it was rough. Yeah, I think she was about nine actually, and it was really rough every night. I got a call.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Bless her, bless her. But she made it. I felt well on myself years and years and years ago. Of course, we know years ago. Um I I went to camp for the first time at age 12, and they were having the camp on the the the college campus, because this was the college that had camps to help recruit. So I went and it and there weren't all these camps everywhere else. It was on the campus. I was so excited. I um and it was supposed to be for two weeks. Oh wow, that's a long time. Two weeks. Uh long time. And I I went to the there was a friend I had at church, and I convinced her dad that she should come with me. Because, you know, you got two friends gone. We're both 12, which it should be fine. Well, we got to to to to ride the the the yellow school bus all the way down to Florida. Uh they pick you up and you ride all night long. So there's the first experience. But that was there about four days before camp even starts. So now it's trying to find something to do before camp even starts. Oh wow. So fast forward on those four days, I was so homesick. I was so homesick that I flew home the first time I had ever flown in my life. I flew home and my friend stayed. She had fun. And she stayed and I flew home and I never went to camp again.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Oh wow.

unknown 17:50

I know.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Wow, that was a terrible experience. It was it was not a and I should have given it another try. She had a great time. Um I'm so glad I talked her into going. But uh or talked her father into going. Uh, I don't think he ever let that ever let me forget that one. But uh, you know, not all camp camp experiences, you know, uh are hey, let's go and I get to be away. I was so different. And and it was just because we just got there way too early.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Plus the all-night drive and the yellow school bus.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Oh yeah, you were probably exhausted by the time you got there.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Oh my yeah, but but you know, to to say now, and and our our kids went to camp. They loved it. Yeah, and uh yes, and so is there anything wrong with camp?

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Right. There is nothing wrong with camp. So the question is, what has happened in the past several years that's now created this kind of aura about camp that says, I gotta do some investigating. I gotta, I gotta look into this. Um I mean, what have what have you seen, Terry, that that that now is kind of raising red flags?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Well, I will tell you something that I noticed when my kids were going to camp, um, which was different from my childhood, um, is that they go to multiple camps. Um, you know, I remember the first year my daughter went to camp that I was telling you about, and she had such a terrible time because she was so homesick. Um, she just went to one camp that year. But then the next year her brother went with her, her older brother. And they they were fine. But then it was a few years later after we moved that there in the area where we live, there's lots of different camp opportunities. But there was a lot of kids going to camp after camp after camp after camp after camp. And you know, we uh allowed our son to go to camp. It was ended up being two weeks in a row for a couple of years. Um boy, he was difficult when he got home after two weeks at camp. Um so I guess that's that's very different than like when I was a child, because mainly, you know, I don't know. Uh I don't know if our family could have afforded two weeks of camp when I was a kid, maybe or maybe not. I don't know. Um well back then in my day it was cheap. Ur. Okay. Yeah. Well, some camps are really, really expensive these days. Some days they're very expensive. Yeah. So anyway, um, so that's one thing that I've noticed that's different.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Um, but the other thing is that I've noticed is that some parents are kind of under this illusion that camp is a safe place. And I don't know that camp is always a safe place.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

And so before a parent is going to relinquish their parental authority, I guess is the best way to say it, for a week or two weeks or whatever it is, um seems to me the wise thing to do would be to investigate and make sure that that camp is safe and that the people running the camp are safe.

unknown 21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Because there's always news stories that come out, you know, about camps and things that are going on in camps and um that are not good, you know, negative, negative press. And I think we'd like to think that the church camps in our arena or our circle are not going to be like that. But I don't know that that's the case everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Right. I I agree. I think the first thing that that should be thought of when you're when you're deciding to send your child to a camp is who who who do the camps Directors report to. Yes. If the American Camp Association, that I think any parent needs to go check that out just to kind of look at guidelines. And there are some camps who are affiliated with that. And so they understand those guidelines and they understand who they're supposed to report to. And so any any camp where there is no board, where there is no one that they're going to be able to report that they have to report to, there is no one that you can go to uh who will oversee the directors, that's a problem. Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Because then the the directors become their own source of power. They become their own source of authority. And um when that happens, you really have no leeway on to on what am I going to, if there's a problem, who am I gonna, who am I gonna talk to? The issue is is that especially when you are looking at quote church camps, automatically we just think, well, they'll be okay. They're they they're church people, they believe like I do. And sad to say, that doesn't always happen that way. So I think the first thing is as a parent, you find out if there's an issue, who do I go to that is not one of the directors, but is somebody who oversees that? What do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 23:57

No, I agree, because I don't care whether it's camp or whether it's a company or whether it's a church or whether it's a school, there's got to be a standard and there's got to be accountability on all levels. And so if you have any of those organizations that I just mentioned, and they don't have some kind of board overseeing what's going on, then when those problems arise, then it's real easy for those problems to be um what's the word? I can't think of the word, minimized. It's you know, minimized, and and then you know, we have could have big problems. And so the thing is we're talking about children, minors that are going to these camps. And so, okay, kids are kids and adults are adults, we're all human, we all make mistakes. I get that, but there do have to be some standards, some things that are allowed, some things that are not allowed. And you know, how this all ties in with our abuse series is that, you know, what if something is happening at a camp that's an abusive situation? It could be with one camper and another camper, it could be with uh, you know, a counselor and a camper, it could be with a counselor and another counselor. There's all sorts of scenarios that could occur. Yeah. So problems are gonna happen because of sin. Problems are gonna happen because people are people, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:33

So what happens if there's no border directors? Exactly. And so if you look at abuse, I think so many times we think is is there going to be sexual abuse happening at a camp? Uh, that can happen at a camp, uh, or sexual exposure. And let me tell you what I mean by sexual exposure. That is where children are being exposed to sexual content. Right. That is also seen as sexual abuse. Right. So here's where I want to go with that. A lot of times there are quote church camps who feel it is their responsibility to educate children on pornography and what that uh and want their, they want the child, and I'm gonna call them child because we're talking children. I don't care if you're 17. They're your they're a kid to somebody. They're still minors, yeah. They're still a minor. And what happens is in these types of situations, they're wanting the child to share their pornographic experiences with the whole group. Now, first of all, I don't think that is where this needs to happen. Because number one, who in the room is educated about how to deal with that? Who in the room is going to be able to find red flags in in some kid's story? And who in the room has really never been introduced to that and is now hearing it for the first time. In my mind, I'm thinking this is the opportunity when you teach children what sexual integrity looks like, not story time of sexual storytelling. Right. And that's and that is what is happening. And I'm not just guessing that. I've had clients, you've had clients, they tell us this is what's going on. Right. And in in some cases, there are the counselors who are are telling that this is what they're doing. We're having confession time. So I I would encourage any parent to ask, ask, ask, ask, are there going to be pornographic, pornography, confession, storytelling times at this camp? And if there's hesitation from a director, a counselor, if there's hesitation on trying to describe what that's supposed to look like, parents, you better pull the kid out of that camp because you don't know. Your kids not probably not gonna tell you. Right, they're probably not gonna tell you what all they've heard, they probably aren't gonna tell you that it's something that's bothering them, they're probably not gonna tell you there's been images created in their mind now that wasn't there before. So parents have got to not be afraid to ask if this is going on in this camp, my child will not participate. Right. I completely agree.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

So another thing I'd like to bring up when it comes to counselors uh that are at camps is that um, and this is another problem if there's no board of directors, is that any counselor that is working at a camp needs to have some kind of safety training. Yes. And if they have not had any kind of that's not a standard uh procedure, I guess you could say, um, to in order for you to be a counselor, then that can't per that person shouldn't be doing, you know, being a counselor. There shouldn't be any counselor or any adult working in a camp setting with minors who has not gone through minimal safety training, at least minimal safety training. Um, and if you are in like, let's say an organization like the Boy Scouts, that you can't go onto any Boy Scout camp um facility without uh the adults having that training. So the camp that my kids went to um met, or they actually were at a Boy Scout facility. So it wasn't a Boy Scout camp, it was a church camp, but it was at a Boy Scout camp. Sure, that makes sense. Yeah, and so um, like so my older kids actually ended up being counselors later on and so, or staff members, sometimes some of our staff members. And so, yeah, they had to go through safety training before they could do that. It's just a standard requirement. Um, we even do that at our congregation if you're gonna teach a Bible class, and I think part of it's insurance related, but you have to go through some minimal safety training in order to be in a setting where you're with children, and the reason that happens is because abuse can happen in just a matter of minutes.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Absolutely, absolutely yeah, yeah. And I think that many people would feel intimidated by that requirement or how or how dare somebody think I won't be a safe person. And if if that's your thought, then maybe you're not the safe one. I I think you know, if you're gonna if you're gonna deal with children, it's like I'll take it, whatever. I I want the children to be safe, I want the parents to know that I'm a safe person. Right. And and and so if if if you don't want to do that, then then you're in the wrong business because that's the world we live in right now. That's the culture we're in.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

And it even goes beyond that because it's not just the counselor being the safe person, but the counselor or the staff member being educated enough through that safety training to be able to recognize that something may have happened at the camp. Or maybe it didn't happen at the camp, but they, you know, maybe they a child discloses something that's happening at home, right? Then they have to know what do I do in that situation. Exactly. And there's legal requirements for that. So so any camp that's not requiring counselors, that's another one you want to run away from.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

So yeah, absolutely, absolutely. The other kind of abuse I'm thinking of is emotional abuse. And I will tell you, I experienced that at that that that short amount of time that I was at that camp situation. Really? Because the cancel the counselor was young. Uh, she might have been, uh I'm gonna say she might have been 19 or 20. And she didn't understand uh at all why I was homesick. And her words to me were well, your problem is you're just a spoiled preacher's kid. Oh, wow. Now, I have never forgotten that. I'm 68 years old and I can remember it as if it were yesterday. Yeah. And I still have seen that person around, and you know, it's it's it's never like, oh, remember back when you were 19 and I was 12. I I don't bring it up because I don't know that she realizes how painful that was for a 12-year-old to be told that.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Um, but what can happen is sometimes counselors, directors believe they are now the parent. And so uh that's called parental interference. And you don't become the parent at a camp. There's also been situations where people believe that because they're an elder or preacher at the church where the kid goes, that they now pull in that authority and do that for the week. All of that is a control issue. It's a control issue, you know, Terry. I and I I know that you know you and I have talked about about this particular case, but there was there was a case that has just been in the past couple years where a child was emotionally abused at one of these quote church camps, pulled out of their bed at three o'clock in the morning, so they could be interrogated by the quote counselor, teacher, elder preacher from their congregation because they were being accused by another kid who was older that they were sending inappropriate messages on a phone, lewd images on a phone. This child wanted to call his parents. No, not yet. You can't do that yet. There, and that didn't happen just one time, that happened more than once during that week. And there were three adults that knew that was going on. Now, here's here's another part to that. The person that the kid that was accusing um the younger child of sending messages, bad messages, was the kid who had who had sexually abused this child. So it didn't happen at the camp, the sexual abuse.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

It had happened outside of that uh prior. But the child was now being emotionally abused, accused, targeted, attacked by adults in the presence of that predator and in the presence of other kids. That's all sorts of wrong. It's all sorts of wrong. So let's fast forward. Once the parents found out about this sexual abuse, they went to that adult teacher, counselor, elder, preacher, and let them know, but they also went to law enforcement. Which was the right thing to do, which was the right thing to do, the right thing to do. The counselor, teacher, preacher, shepherd did not want that. He did not want that. Sure. But the parents didn't did it anyway, and I'm so thankful they did because what happened in that court case, this predator had abused more than just their son. It was more boys. Now, what has happened since then is that the the the predator had to has had to go through a lot. They've confessed it all. They've confessed it all. They have said that this is what they did. They had that predator had messed with the younger child's uh apps, and it wasn't the younger child who was sending any of that at all, it was the predator. So all of those things, all of the lies were happening, and the adult in the room was standing up for the predator and did not want the predator to have to have consequences, but just say you're sorry, let's move on. So now the younger child is is finishing high school, doing beautifully, doing beautifully. The predator has has been under supervision in a facility for quite a while, is finally going to get to be released from that, but still has a lot of things they have to do, and they're a lot of supervision still. The thing that has not happened is those adults in the room never told the rest of the counselors, the parents that that kid was innocent. So the emotional abuse, the verbal abuse continued. And to this day, those three adults in the room still won't do it. So that's why I say to parents, you have got to know with whom you're gonna set your child down with for a week to be indoctrinated. Yeah. And you better make sure that they have your child's best interest at heart and they don't bring in all their other power grabs. Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Yeah. And I think a lot of this all stems from the fact that people don't understand what abuse is. I mean, they don't understand what those actions that you just described, that there was just abuse all over the place. And all over the place. They're not only abusing the child that was in the situation, but the parents, you know, and and anybody else that was involved in it, you know, that's that's just it's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

That kind of stuff just shouldn't be happening at a camp. It shouldn't be happening at a camp. And and one of the things is when when you don't have when you have a camp where the the leaders and directors do not want law enforcement involved, you got a problem. That is a problem. That's a huge problem. When you've got camps where the where there's mandatory reporting is not like this is what we will do here, if that is not what happens at you, and and this is why parents, you've got to ask that question, right? Because um the idea behind some of these uh adults in the room, so to speak, is that they just want to work it out behind closed doors. Well, uh working it out behind closed doors, how does that help a predator? It does. How does that help a predator? It doesn't. In fact, it says it says to the predator, you know, all you have to do is say, I'm sorry, and that's it. Right. Everything else can be hidden, everything else can be covered up. And then what you find out in this particular situation is that this has been happening with multiple children. So that's why that when a camp does not have a board of directors, when a camp is not accountable, when a camp does not base their their that their belief system says no law enforcement, that's a problem. Right. That's a problem. It sure is yeah, and and again, this is not about uh abolishing camps. This is about let's uh let's bring let's let's bring this to uh a place of safety, right? Emotional safety, sexual safety, verbal safety. Um let's let's bring this to a place where where you without a doubt as a parent know that when your child comes home that they're not coming home with a bunch of stuff in their head that they didn't get there with. Right. And these confessions, these confessionals, that has to stop. Yeah. It has to stop.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Yeah. I think sometimes that um those confession, I think they're called confession circles, are happening because they're trying to teach the the kids that you know we need to pray for one another and we need to bear each other's burdens and all that, which is scriptural. I get that, right? But these are kids. And they're not adults, so that's a different story. And, you know, I might come to you if I have a problem and say, I need you to pray for me. I'm having this problem, you know, with my marriage, let's say my marriage. And um, but you can pray for me as an adult, and you are wise enough to know that that's not something you go spreading around to other people. When you get a bunch of teenagers together and somebody starts confessing something, all of a sudden you got a big old drama problem on your hands because they're gonna start talking about each other behind their backs, they're gonna start um ostracizing one another, and that is not helpful. No, and I think a lot of the confession circle stuff too is also centered around the pornography issue. And so let's let's think about that in respect to you know, now versus like when we might have gone to camp. When we went to camp, the pornography issue was not as bad as it is now. Was it in existence? Yes, but was it in your pocket? No, you had to go buy it. Now kids are exposed to it at such young ages, and it's not the same, right? It's video, it's total depravity. Whereas when we were kids, it was pictures in a magazine. That's it. So so now you got a bunch of kids in a camp that have been exposed to this stuff. And if you think your kid hasn't been exposed to it, you're living in a in the other plane, though. Yeah, it's like living in your bubble because it they're all exposed to it. That doesn't mean they're looking for it. Right, it means that they're on their device and it just they misspell a word and it pops up, and now they're curious and they see it, and you know, they're they're human just like anybody. Okay, but that was the difference. We didn't have that. So now you have a bunch of kids in a confession circle saying, Well, I looked at porn or I did something else, you know. They don't need that, they don't do not need that. They now they need to confess that, they could confess that to an adult. An adult, and an adult could help them through that. That's a totally different story. Yes. Now, the other thing that I was gonna bring up is that when let's say a kid does confess that to an adult, okay, that's a good thing. But what happens after camp? Right. There is there follow-up, is there any discussion with the parents that this happened? Or is there communication between that adult and that child? And that should not be happening. And that's another thing that has been happening is that adult counselors are. Communicating privately with young people, and the parents have no idea that that's going on. Or maybe they do know it's going on because they are doing what they're supposed to do and they're monitoring their child's phone and they see why are you communicating with this adult? A teacher in a school is not supposed to be doing that. Exactly. So why would a counselor at a camp do that? Yeah. Because that once again gets to that part that you mentioned earlier where that's parental interference. And I realize that some counselors may have a heart because some kids come out of really rough backgrounds. And I, in my programming, I always encourage kids to find a trusted adult that they can talk to. Ideally, that would be their parents, but if their parents are out of the picture or something, they can find somebody else. But it doesn't need to be a camp counselor that they have known for a week. It needs to be somebody they're doing life with on a regular basis.

unknown 45:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Who has their best interest at heart? That camp counselor may have their best interest at heart for a week, maybe. But they have no business communicating with that young person after camp is over.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Right. Absolutely. And and any any adult who seems to be drawn to the vulnerable kid, uh the kid who who doesn't have a father much figure, and this adult starts showing up to be the mentor, uh, but their their relationship is pretty private. Uh red flag, red flag. That's not okay. I love the point, Terry, where if that a child needs to be with somebody there, as you said, they're doing life with. Right. And that doesn't mean the 19-year-old counselor that's there. That doesn't mean the person that you don't know except for that week. That doesn't mean the person who's a peer who's sleeping in the bunk above you. Um, and this is why is is is is amazing to me that that we're having to even say this. Um, because there are adults that are involved with these things who are are are not thinking clearly that this is this is the safety, this is safety for the child.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

And so I what I'm gonna propose while you know these while we're wrapping up is that uh these camps use the material that you have created about is sexual integrity, uh, not about let's talk about what you consumed on your on your uh phone last week. Let's talk about this. Is how we're gonna move in this camp. We're gonna talk about sexual integrity, not sexual uh behavior behavior that is um totally immoral. We're not gonna talk, we're not that's not that's not what our big conversation is gonna be about. Let's let's see how immoral you people are. Yeah, let's talk about the integrity of sexual integrity. So I'm gonna push on this podcast in this episode that they reach out to you about the curriculum you've written, yeah, and that they use that while they have these young people, that they use that material to invest in the minds of kids of things that are are glory to God, that that create integrity in the in the minds of young people, not that they go home remembering what their their bunk buddy did on their phone. Right. I think it's a totally we've got to change the trajectory that we're taking these camps.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Got to. So um I just want to add that um about the material, yeah, that you know, I cover all of that in the program, you know, teaching them what it is and what they how they should respond to it and that sort of thing. But I always, always, always, always end any program I do, whether it's a live presentation or whether it's the curriculum, on the idea of hope. Because the last thing I want is for a kid that's sitting in my audience when I'm talking, or if I'm in a camp or you know, or they're reading a book that I've written or something like that. The last thing I want them to do is to read and learn about all the stuff, the the evil stuff that that's that in our world, and they know they've been exposed to it, or they know they've participated in it, and to feel that they cannot recover from that or they cannot turn from that and get away from it because we're human, right? Every single one of us are human. We all make mistakes, and if you make a mistake, that doesn't mean that your life is over, that your world ends. There is hope you can turn from that. And that's all part of the Romans 12, too of transforming yourself. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Absolutely. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

All right. Well, this has been a good, good discussion. So thank you for coming back. I like it when there's a guest here. It does help with guests. I I know that with my own one, it does help. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here, Julie. And um, if anybody has questions about any of this, please reach out to us. And don't forget that we have the widget on the website. That if you have a question about abuse or you need to report abuse, if you're confused about abuse, you can always go to that what that widget and you can anonymously insert a question and um we will we will try to help you in any way that we can.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Okay. Any final thoughts? No, thank you so much for this conversation. It's a much needed one, and I'm just so thankful we don't shy away from it.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Yes, I I'm glad we did it too. So all right, until next time, may you find healing and wellness at the Still Waters. Okay, that was really good. That was good. Yeah. Are you talking about do you think the opinions are okay with being um? I mean, you didn't say any names or anything, but like that'll be fine. Because uh you know, Dave's all if I start saying something to him like, I got a new client and he was like you and you know, 14, read this book, and he goes, Should you be telling me this? I'm like, I'm not telling you his name.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

No, no, I yeah, you know, I think I think like like Wilson, he's like what when he goes into meetings and somebody come and and somebody comes up to him and says, Oh, I've met with your wife. Uh-huh. And he might know them, but he will always go, Oh, okay. Yeah. He plays dumb every time. Yeah. I don't tell him all the things. I don't. Yeah. Sometimes people tell him that they're going to make an appointment or something. Right. But I don't think David should ever worry about that because he is the last man on the planet that's going to start telling something.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

This is true. That's exactly right. I'm going to remind him of that.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

He is as safe with that information as Lucy.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

That's right. Okay. Well, I'm that's great. Okay. Well, I'm going to get this edited if it needs any editing, and like it's going to come out tomorrow. So be interesting to see if we get any response to it.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Well, we'll see. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Yeah. I don't know. All right. I'll see you tomorrow. Are you still on for beautiful minds tomorrow? Yep. Okay. Good to go. All righty.

unknown 52:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Have a good day. Okay. Bye. Bye.