April Babcock shares her story of losing a son and finding a mission to fight against the supply of illicit fentanyl

April Babcock lost her son Austen to illicit fentanyl. Illicit fentanyl is a deadly drug that most people taking it think they are taking something else. April share’s her story of being in such pain after the loss of her son that she did not want life to go on. After 18 months of intense grief and going to God for help she has taken her pain and made it into a purpose. She founded a group called Lost Voices of Fentanyl  https://lvof.org . 

She has made her life a mission to stop the supply of Fentanyl coming into the US from China and Mexico. Her Facebook group has over 36,000 member and they hold a rally in Washington, DC every year to push lawmakers into acting to stem the flow of fentanyl into the US. She has made it clear that she is fighting against fentanyl to save our children so that no other family has to suffer a loss like hers. 

The grief, pain and loneliness of losing a child never goes away but turning that pain in to purpose young people’s lives are being saved. If you are interested in supporting Lost Voices of Fentanyl you can contact April at lvof.org.

Transcript

April Babcock Interview

Rick Williams: welcome to the podcast and I'm here with April Babcock, and she's going to tell a little bit of her story about how her the loss of her son and how it's affected her, and kind of where her journey's at now. So April, thank you for joining and I'll let you kind of give a background to your story.

April: Thank you so much, Rick. So I lost my son. was 25 years old when my son passed away January 26th, 2019. So coming up on six and a half years my son died to illicit fentanyl poisoning. Oh god.

Rick Williams: Talk about fentanyl poisoning as I told you, I really didn't understand that taking Fentanyl might look like something completely different. You don't really know what you're taking.

April: Yeah, absolutely. So IIT fentanyl is the leading cause of death in Americans 18 to 45. And I believe the number is actually going up and lowering. 'cause we're losing 22 high school students every week in America. All powders and all pills. Pills are either fake. There's really no real pills on the streets.

They're all fake, so which means Adderall, Xanax, Percocet, you name it, they're all fake pills and you can't tell the difference between a real Adderall or Percocet. Compared to a fake pill, the DEA, it was seven out of every 10 pills had a lethal dose of illicit fentanyl. I gotta get new update from the DEA.

'cause there was a time, I think it went down to five outta every 10. Then I saw somebody sharing the other day. It's still seven out of every 10. So the bottom line is a five outta 10, seven outta 10. lethal pills. And then when it comes to cocaine and heroin and meth, all of that has fentanyl in it.

And now Xylazine and other crazy synthetics that are even more, lethal than illicit fentanyl. And when you think illicit fentanyl, it only takes two milligrams to kill someone That's equivalent to two grains of salt. So if, if you take a sweet and low packet, if that was illicit fentanyl, that one sweet and low packet has the potential to kill 500 people. Pure insanity. you know, I'm not saying it's a good choice to, take illicit drugs, obviously that's a bad choice, but, you know, people should learn from mistakes, especially our children and our youth. They should learn from mistakes. Now. die. They die from one mistake before illicit fentanyl. know, we always had people die.

And they were usually people that suffered with a legit substance use disorder. Now it's first time experimental and occasional users and now babies that are dying, and those people never died before. It was always people that suffered with an SUD and before elicit fentanyl, even people with an SUD, they had. Umping, chances of recovery. I mean, I'm sure you've heard the stories. Their kid went to rehab 7, 8, 9, 10 times, sometimes even more than that, and they had all those chances to recover. But you know, my son never made. He never even got that chance to recover. You know, the last two years of his life, I knew he was suffering with a substance use disorder.

We talked about it. He just wasn't ready to, you know, take those steps. His drug of choice was cocaine and the cocaine. That's what killed him actually. But it wasn't the  cocaine that killed him. It was the illicit fentanyl that was in his cocaine. Even the police said, my son was given a hot shot.

The dealer that sold my son that cocaine, that my son thought it was cocaine, knew probably my son was gonna die and he didn't care. It's like money trumps human lives you know. I have this group, lost Voice of Fentanyl. We really focus on supply, so we focus on the, borders. under the last administration when they were wide open and the fentanyl was just pouring in here. Absolute insanity. And we focus on China. China's the head of the snake, so if your viewers don't know, the illicit fentanyl starts in pharmaceutical labs in China. Last year last April, I went to the China Select Committee. Had a hearing in Washington DC and they pretty much told us what us parents with [00:05:00] dead children that do our research, we already knew, but China is deliberately killing us.

They give tax breaks, incentives to all these pharmaceutical labs in China that are making these precursor chemicals. You know, they ship it to the cartels. The cartels produce it and. Flooded into our country. A major issue I'm considering It's a leading cause of death. 18 to 45 year olds. I would say that's a national security crisis and a threat to our country. I was telling you earlier, before we started recording that, just last week, there was some concert in Colorado and they had, I think it was like a three day, you know, big concert event and they had to. Close the event because apparently someone was putting illicit fentanyl in some water bottles. You know, I gotta read up a little bit more about that story, but this is why, you know, we're fighting so hard for illicit fentanyl to be labeled a weapon of mass destruction because when it only takes two grains of salt, two milligrams to kill someone, I've met hundreds, actually I know thousands of parents with dead kids. illisit, fentanyl. But some of these kids took half a pill they split a pill with the friend. Some of them both. Both kids died. I know so many people. My friend down the street, she's another Maryland mom, her son and his girlfriend both died together. this is a very common story and that's when I it just boggles my mind because I'm like, how in the world is this so common? When it's definitely not normal, you should know about illicit fentanyl before you met me. It needs to be a household name because it takes. One try of anything and now you could potentially die. It's Russian roulette. you know, and, and then there's people that, oh, I would never do that. You know how many moms that, you know, I've talked to and they always said, not my child, and then their child's dead.

Rick Williams: Yeah.

April: know, I try to use an example, know, a lot of people don't do illicit drugs, but you know, they'll go out to a bar and they'll drink. Have you ever heard a good story come from anybody inebriated? really. And people make bad decisions when they're inebriated. It takes one friend to convince them to take this pill.

Oh, we're all going back to my house later on. I got a eight ball. The Kansas City Chiefs last year when they were in the playoffs. Remember that story? people died together. They were watching the Kansas City Chiefs. A friend invited three of his friends over. They were all in their twenties or thirties.

I don't remember. They all got a bunch of cocaine. Three of them died. That is not normal. 

Again, I'm not saying it's a good choice. I, I did cocaine for 20 years of my life. here today living and breathing. I always say if illicit Fentanyl was out back in the day, it would be me and all my friends dead, and not my son and all his friends. 18 months after my son passed away, his best friend died from a Xanax because it wasn't a Xanax, it was a fake Xanax made to look like a real pharmaceutical grade pill, and it just wasn't

Rick Williams: Tell me a little bit about your journey from, and I, I know from seeing your website and your organization, I mean, you're making an incredible impact on making people aware of fentanyl, but from when your son passed away until you started the organization. Can you kind of talk about your journey there?

Like were you really aware as much of the fentanyl, when your son passed away I know it's become a life passion and you've kind of learned to use your voice. Can you just talk about that journey from when you found out about his loss to kinda when you really started this organization?

April: Well, I'll never forget that call. Actually, I was sitting in this room when my mom called me 5:47. all remember the time we got the call or we found out. Most of us remember, it was 5:47. I was sitting in this room and my mom called me and she said, April, I'm so sorry, or, and. And I knew it. I just dropped the phone, screamed.

My mom lives two blocks down the street and I laid on my son's body for about 20 minutes before the police made me get off. Sometimes I'm still mad at myself. I didn't lay on him longer. I know that sounds messed up, but you can understand since you've lost your son. But I knew the day he died, it was fentanyl because I knew what my son was doing. I knew he was doing cocaine, and I knew that would've never killed him. And I had recently, it was a few months before my son died, I started hearing about Alyssa Fentanyl and heroin, people dying from heroin with iiss, fentanyl.

I didn't know too much about it, but I knew the day my kid died, I knew it was fentanyl. And then when I got the toxicology report back like four weeks later, I was right. It was fentanyl, but hmm. wanted to die when my son died. And you know, I do, I do have two other children, but I really just, I didn't wanna be here, like, I just wanted to be with my kid and I knew. Actually on the porch at my mom's house before they even took my son's body outta the house. You know, I, I told you that I had used drugs for 20 years of my life. So pretty much from the time I was like 20 to 40, you know, I, I wasn't an everyday user.

I never was, but I was definitely an, an occasional user and sometimes more than I should have, which I should have never done it, but I did. But I made a decision on the porch when my son's body was still in the house, crime lab was in there doing their thing, and I just made a decision on the porch and I said, here I am, God, I'm all yours. Like. It is too much of a burden for any person to bear on their own. And honestly, I don't know how anybody through this without the Lord. I have really no idea how anybody functions without running to God. Like I ran to God. I, put it at the foot of the cross. Sometimes I had to put it at the foot of the cross 50 times a day. But I wasn't, and I wasn't a member of a church when my son passed away. But real quick, I started church hop. I went to like five different churches before I found the one that was for me, and that's what I did. I went to church, I joined bible studies. I even went to Israel for two weeks on my son's first year angel anniversary.

Why did I go to Israel? Because. It, it's God's chosen people. You know, that's where Jesus ascended up to heaven. And I know my kids there and I just wanted to be closer to that, like closer to God. So, you know, I went to Israel, but pretty much for the first year and a half, I just s prayed, screamed. Cried, prayed, cried It was just, and I, I knew I wanted to do something, like I was meeting these moms on social media and you know, I was, you know, talking about Chyna and Alyssa, fentanyl, but, you know, I just didn't know what I wanted to do with my grief, but I knew I had to do something, so I just kept praying and. It took about 18 months, and I swear I heard from God. Some people say I'm crazy, but I know I'm not crazy and I feel like I'm doing God's will for my life and I'm doing what God put on my heart to do, and that's focusing on supply. And honestly, it's. The complete opposite of what I thought I would be doing because when my, I told you my son was suffering with an SUD and like soon after he died, I just kept thinking in my mind, I'm gonna open up a recovery house and call it Austin's house, like after my son. And you know, we had a pool table here that he always played on, and I wanted to take this pool table into the recovery house and. That, that was like the vision in my mind, like where I was gonna go. But yeah, that's not what God put on my heart to do. And it was to focus on supply, which is, you know, there has to be PO people doing both. But one, I didn't, I couldn't find any groups like focusing on supply. There were all these groups that, you know, addiction and recovery, addiction and recovery addiction. There's thousands of them. Thousands of them on social media, but I didn't see any about supply. So that's me and you know, yeah. I feel I'm really  doing God's will for my life.

Rick Williams: When I think your story, one of the things that's unique that I listen to on some of the other things that you've got online is, you know, we, we know that death of a child can come to anyone, doesn't matter social status. It doesn't matter how much money you have, it doesn't matter if you're poor, you're rich.None of that matters and I, I think it's inspiring when you talked about where you were at in life and what you've done with this organization. This was not something that probably you had a lot of skill sets around to start with and so you might just talk about that because it's inspirational to know that you know, these kind of life-changing events you can take from.

You can't change the event that happened, but you can certainly change kind of the dynamics and the outcome maybe for other people's lives, and it gives you a mission in life 

April: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're a thousand percent we're grassroots. I'm mainly on Facebook because I just don't like social media, but we're up to 36,000 members. I wish I could do, you know, Instagram and TikTok and all those, but I just don't, I just stick with Facebook and. You know, we go rally every year in Washington DC We have a big event this year.

It's October 18th, will be my fifth year. But yeah before my son died, like I haven't even had a job. I've had to take a shower for, you know, I worked at a kennel. I painted bridges. Now I clean houses, and had no idea what I was doing. And, and you know, sometimes I, I'm still learning every day like I'm a nonprofit.

I just learn as I go, talk to other people that run nonprofits to try to get some help because I really learn as I go and I tell people, if I can do it, anybody can do it. I haven't even had a computer. I have not typed on a computer since I think I was. Maybe 19 years old. I had no reason to have a computer. I had a cell phone, but now I have a laptop. I have an Apple computer. Everything is, since my son died,

Rick Williams: Because of a mission,

April: it, yeah. Because what we're doing, we're fighting to save. Your kids from death. Like, I can't save my kid. He's already gone. But our, our mission is to save other people and to just to get the awareness out there. losing, okay? There's another Marilyn family, okay? and 10, brother and sister, you know, who found the 14 and 10-year-old brother and sister, their 12-year-old sibling? Imagine being 12. finding your 14-year-old sister and your 10-year-old little brother dead. This is the crisis. This is the crisis that no one is talking about. Nobody. are, the families are and, and if we didn't do it, I mean, things are getting a little, they're not getting better, but there's more awareness. There's more awareness out there right now, and I'm gonna tell you where that awareness comes from. It's all the grassroots like me, because no one was talking about it.

This has been going on since 2013. It is 2025. It's been over a decade. We're losing over a hundred thousand people every single year. Like, okay, do you really realize how many people that are? That is like 747, how many? 250? That would be like that crashing to the ground every day in America. That's, and it's more people than that dying every single day.

If that was an airplane fell from the sky and crashed, it would be on every newscast, every channel around the world. But when it comes to illicit fentanyl, it's crickets. And I know a lot of it is the stigma, you know, I don't let stigma phase me, unfortunately. It, it has a lot to do with the stigma because, oh, your kid made a choice type of thing, which is really sad to me.

But, you know, we keep pushing, pushing forward and trying to get laws changed. You know, I've testified the last two years on a death by distribution law in my state of Maryland. That, you know, for two years in a row now, it's been tucked away in a drawer to not even be voted upon, which I think is criminal because it's, we have bipartisan support, Democrats, Republicans, we have so many people in support of this bill to pass.

Rick Williams: I thought it was interesting in one of the interviews that I watched that you did, that, you know, this could be a kid that just takes a pill to stay up late because they have homework,

April: studying.

How many college kids have died in their dorms because of doing exactly what you just said?

Rick Williams: those aren't, those aren't drug, those kids aren't on drugs. They're not bad kids. So that stigma is,

April: the stigma

Rick Williams: yeah.

April: and even those suffering with an addiction, like they were poisoned just the same. I tell people because I've had, I've had, I've come across this in the past where, you know, there might be a mom or a dad join my group and they'll send me a private message.

I don't feel like I belong here. Like my kid was actually seeking fentanyl and we don't treat 'em no different. if they were seeking fentanyl, they were poisoned all the same. And why were they seeking fentanyl? Almost everybody that gets addicted to that, it's not by choice. It's because they thought they were getting a Percocet, they thought they were getting an Adderall or they thought they were doing actual heroin or, or cocaine.

Like if my son wouldn't have died that night within. Three hours, he would've been feeling withdrawals. And that makes you wanna go back and get more of whatever it is so you're not hurting. You get hooked on it so quick. And that's why the cartels do it because it's cheap and it's highly addictive. So they want everybody hooked on this stuff.

And it doesn't matter about the people that died. It's a moneymaker, moneymaker. So it's like they hit the jackpot when you know. They went into business with China to kill us,

Rick Williams: Well, I'm thinking, you know, we talked about my son died from a rare cancer, but during his time with the cancer, he was addicted to oxycodone, which he, he knew it, but luckily he was being prescribed that and got it at a pharmacy, but he could have just as easily if he wasn't getting that prescription.

Could have just as easily had the same issue happen. Yeah.

April: The doctors cut 'em off from their Percocet or their Oxy. So once you're cut off and you're hooked on it, they're going to the street. And now on the street all fake. They're not getting what they think they're getting, so they're being deceived to death.

Rick Williams: Yeah.

April: You know, and I, and it's definitely a poisoning overdose means there's a safe dose to take.

You take too much of a safe dose and it causes death or harm. no safe dose of illicit fentanyl, and honestly, I don't call any illicit drug death a overdose because there's no safe dose of heroin or cocaine or meth, have, there's zero safe dose unless it's your prescription. It says one pill every eight hours and you take 20.

That's your overdose. Or the combination of certain drugs. Like my girlfriend actually overdosed. She overdosed on Benadryl over the counter cold medicine, and she had a prescription for a mild tranquilizer, and the combo of the three actually killed her and she died. So she, it, she died from an overdose of those three drugs, but. Illicit drugs. There's not a safe dose to consume of illicit drugs. What's happening inside your boy? Your body is being poisoned

Know, a lot of these kids, they just don't even know what they're getting. Even adults,

Rick Williams: Yeah.

April: there's a lot of adults, they don't know what they're consuming. It's really sad.

Rick Williams: How has this affected your family? You said you had two other kids, like how have they struggled with the loss of their brother? Or are they kind of all on board with this? Or maybe if you could talk about like the family.

April: yeah, my daughter was two and a half years older than her brother, and they were really close, and I was so messed up in my grief that I really wasn't looking at. Hers. And I remember it was like six and a half, seven months after my son had passed away my daughter was over. It was summertime.

We were sitting on the front porch talking and I didn't even know she had quit her job. I had no idea. She quit her job after her brother died and gained like 40 pounds. 'cause that's what she did. That's how you know she. She, she wasn't functioning, but I didn't realize what was going on with her because I was too messed up.

I mean, and I still wanted to die back then. Even though I had two living children, I would've been okay with death. Now, I wasn't gonna take my own life, but, you know, if I ran off a bridge by accident, I wasn't gonna be crying the blues about it. So yeah, it really affected my daughter really, hard. My

Rick Williams: The grief is brutal. Like, and that's again, one of the reasons we're doing this podcast is to, when you lose a child, most of the time it's completely unexpected and you don't have any place to turn to. What have other people been through? You just. Kind of go on day to day, and there are so many challenges internally dealing with that grief that it, it's hard to care for the people around you.

April: Yeah, I I don't think I did a great job caring for anyone around me. 'cause I, I went to work every day. My son died on a Saturday. We had the funeral the following Saturday and that Monday I was back at work. I. I had bills to pay, but honestly I look back on it 'cause I'm always like, God, you know, I talked to God like, I can't believe it's, it's my own company. I used to have a partner, but I just, it's just me now. But I always wondered, you know, why is this my job? Like I'm just cleaning houses. But after my son passed away, after some time, after he passed, I, I feel like God had me doing this for a reason because I don't, I think I would've been fired. I don't think I would've been able to work.

I'm single. I'm not married, so I, I think I would've lost my house if I had another job, like if I worked in a hospital or if I worked around people. At all. I don't think I would've been able to do it. My heart breaks for all those people that lose a child and have to go back to work, like working with other people.

I, I don't know. I was alone every day. So if I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs and cry at work, which I did all the time, I, I was able to do that. So now I thank God for my job 'cause I was able to get through that and I know, I know plenty of of bereaved moms that have either gotten fired or just didn't go back to work.

They're on disability. A lot of people, you know, death of a child is debilitating,

Rick Williams: Yes.

April: and that's why I am saying without running to the cross. I don't know where I'd be. 'cause even running to God with this, it's so hard, like. dreaded being on your show. I, I really did. I didn't wanna be on this podcast because we weren't really talking about China and Fentanyl. We were more talking and focusing on the grief part of it. And like, my story, and I don't like talking about that often.

It like brings it all, you know, it's just hard. It's still difficult six and a half years later it's.

Rick Williams: I kind of did what, what you did when you looked at like, what is not being addressed with the loss of a child. Like I saw a lot of podcasts around and, and things dealing with, I. Talking about their kids, but not really addressing the grief. And, you know, that's what a lot of people ask us, how do you, how do you deal with that over time?

For us, we've really tried to take, you still feel the hurt every day, but try to take, these are the really good things about. My son and you celebrate him at like it was Father's Day, you know, yesterday or like on his birthday or Chris, you would talk about good things about him and try to remember those positives.

But it's, it's very challenging when you have to go back and think about that grief because it's so painful. And you know, I know you've changed your grief to this mission. That seems to drive you every day to not have another parent have to go through what you're going through.

April: Yeah. Pain to purpose. I really think it can save, save people from and especially with illicit fentanyl, it's e, I mean, I'm not gonna say it's easy to turn your pain into purpose, but there's so much awareness we can do like. And I, I try to talk to some of these moms because some of 'em just can't do anything.

And I'm like, you know, nothing is too little. If all you can do is wear a fentanyl wearing a t-shirt, wear it. I wore one. I'm telling you, this was like two years ago. I was in my local dollar store. I. And I had a fentanyl awareness shirt on and it was a long line that day and there was a lady in the line and she's pointing at me and she's like, I like your shirt.

And I just looked at her. I said, did you lose someone? She said, yeah, my kid. And you ready? Four people in the line. Four. like,

Rick Williams: It's sad.

April: insane. Like how when I'm saying we're losing a hundred thousand people a year. We're losing a hundred thousand people a year. It's astronomical. It's mind-boggling to me.

Still after six and a half years. I look at all the people that have died since my son has died, I just think it's complete insanity. And knowing that government has completely failed us, it gives us a lot to fight about.

Rick Williams: Yeah, I, you know, when you bring that up about like the four people in line that had lost children to that, when you went through this, did you feel very alone and isolated? Because that's one of the things that seems like loss of a child. Unless people are reaching out to you. And again, for us, we had a very big support system, but you do feel very much alone.

And, you know, which makes it even harder to go through the grief, like, because there's just nobody to share it with.

April: Wanna hear something crazy. So I have this group, we got 36,000 members and I still feel alone. When it comes to the grief and why is that? It's like, I know so many moms and dads and I still sometimes feel so alone. It's, you know, no one's gonna grieve my son like I grieve my son. Same for you.

Rick Williams: Yep.

April: it's. You know, and everybody like your grief is your grief. I say, I walk hand in hand with grief. It's never going anywhere. Like my son is not coming back. So it's just, you know, what do they say? All the love with nowhere to go.

Rick Williams: Yeah. And you know, this grief with losing a child, they say is the most enduring grief you could ever have. It's, it's very different than losing a parent or a sibling losing a child. It's just, it, it, as you said before, it can be debilitating, can create financial runs, runs relationships, marriages family dynamics.

And again, that, that's kind of what we're trying to explore through people that have gone through it, that are willing to kind of discuss it, that you're not alone with it. And. But how do you rely on people to the places that you can go to even talk about it or, you know, faith in God? That, for us, that was you know, a, a key for us because we know at some point we will see my son again.

But it doesn't change the grief you have on a daily basis.

April: Absolutely. I mean, I'm, I, I feel like I'm definitely blessed. The one bible verse, beauty for ashes. Oh my gosh, that one. And I, I would fight with God with that one. Nope. What do you mean? Nope. Don't wanna hear it, but you know, after time I tell people with, it never gets better, but it gets different.

Rick Williams: Yeah.

April: tell another bereaved parent, it gets better. How that just kind of ticks me off, how in the world is it gonna get better that my kid is dead? it gets different

Rick Williams: You manage the grief differently.

April: Yeah. You know, it's like in the beginning you're constantly drowning. The tidal waves are, they keep crashing. Now it's like I can see the tidal wave coming. can see that coming now.

I mean, I'm at six and a half years and you know, I feel I do have a lot of beauty for ashes like. I got all the, I know so many people. It's so sad and it breaks my heart, but I know if I need to pick up the phone, I have people to call. So I would tell anybody that has lost a child. If they're sitting alone and they haven't done anything, they have to find grief support or get on social media because I'm sure there's, there's those special groups.

If you've lost a child to cancer. That I am sure they're out there. They have a group for everything. You, my best advice. They have to connect. It's too much to bear on your own.

Rick Williams: Yep.

April: to connect with other families that lost a child. You have to, I mean, even with running to the cross, I, I, I feel like you have to have that connection other people that understand. you're going through.

Rick Williams: Because you help them, they help you. You know, there's just a, and it's something that people can say that have not lost a child. Oh, I know what you're going through. They don't like but people who have lost a child, you can certainly relate to the emotion of that grief. It just never will go away.

But you just, for us, we've just learned to manage it differently. Trying to take the grief and turn it into celebrations of his life rather than the, all of our loss. But, 

April: this podcast, which is for you, like that is a way to, you know, pain to a purpose,

Rick Williams: It was very interesting, like when I started doing this, like, you know, you, you really think of you know, I'm closer to retirement, so I'm thinking what do I want to do next with my life? And, and you start praying and thinking about these things and like so many people would ask us like, how do you manage that grief?

And it's like, well, you, you, you'll never get the, get rid of that grief. But, you know, here's some things we've learned. Here's people that have spoken to our lives or support us. Sometimes when they just, they do things for you that just like, Hey, I know you might, this, you might be struggling. This is his birthday coming up, or something like that.

And they kinda wrap you in their arms with love and like, Hey, you know, how do we help you through it? And so. Part of what I'm doing this podcast, it's interviewing people that have lost kids that can relate to others, but also some of the support people that come and they're very special, even if it's just for a season that we're there for you.

So those are some of the additional people that we're, we're having the discussions with.

April: Nice. I mean, I think a church family is definitely good and right now I don't even have one. 'cause Yeah, I stopped going to the one

But so that's another thing. But that's, you know, that's something I need to lean more into because I do feel like I need that. And now I feel like I'm kind of getting in a funk like. does God want me to do? Like I have this nonprofit, but you know, am I, am gonna keep having an event every year in DC like after October I'm gonna be in another big praying season? I think because, you know, I just don't know, and I don't know.

Rick Williams: I really appreciate you doing this interview. I know it's can be very emotional having to talk back through that part of the loss. So I do really appreciate you sharing your story.

April: You're welcome.