Sunlight Matters

Shadowmap with Georg Molzer

• Dave Wallace • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In this episode of Sunlight Matters, host David Wallace interviews Georg, the founder and CEO of Shadowmap, a platform designed to visualize sunlight and its effects on various environments. Georg shares his personal journey, the technological innovations behind Shadowmap, and its applications in real estate and health. The conversation emphasizes the importance of sunlight for well-being and how Shadowmap can help users make informed decisions about property and solar energy.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to the first episode of Sunlight Matters. And I'm joined by Georg from Shadow Map. Georg, welcome. Why don't you just give us a brief introduction to yourself and then we can talk about Shadow Map?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure, I'd love to. Yeah, thanks for having me, Dave. I'm very proud to be in the first episode of Sunlight Matters. That's really quite cool. I'm I'm Georg or George. I'm the founder and CEO of Shadow Map. Yeah, so I I really love the sun. Like it was always a big part of my life. And 11 years ago, I was standing on a balcony in Vienna in a very um yeah, typical winter, like no not much sunlight, lots of clouds, and I couldn't see the sun for two weeks, and I was standing on this balcony looking over the city, and I thought, hey, it would be cool to have an application that helps me to find sunlight if it's even there in places like Vienna. And then I did another startup, and after having a quite significant burnout, I decided to just build this. You know, like I I I got back to my creativity and my will to build things, and I started building it.

SPEAKER_01:

Fantastic. So the idea for the product, Shadow Map, came from your desire to just get in the sun a bit more?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_01:

Um so how I mean it's so often people start with an idea but then just do nothing with it. So how how did you go about taking it from just that basic idea into something which um has become a really powerful platform now?

SPEAKER_00:

I fully understand that. I have I have lists of ideas which never came to fruition, like who never made it into reality. I think it was a combination of several factors that led to the shadow map really being born into this world. Um I can see I did another startup before. I was a co-founder CTO, and it was I was a late co-founder, so I entered a company where I didn't understand all of the mechanics, like all of the components. And there were some things in the basement you could say locked away, and and some of them surfaced, and I was not so happy about it. Even though I I I've put a lot of energy and time into this, I I ended up being kind of disappointed that I yeah, could not solve many of the foundational problems of it. And I I decided to leave the company. I fell into quite a big hole, so I was depressed. I was sad that even though I I I tried so hard and and did so much, there was so much um misalignment in the in the in the co-founder team and in the vision. But also I think also I'm I'm realizing this more also just within myself, you know. Like I think this whole thing is a very personal journey, like your work and what you what you create. So I'm I'm not blaming just others, I think it's a constellation all the time and it's a a reflection of your external reality. But I don't want to go too deep into this.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, no. I mean, but all of these things are learning opportunities, aren't they? You know they form the foundation for what we do, guys.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. The thing is that I had this idea 11 years ago, I did this other startup, then I had a burnout, and and then I really had a quite a long phase, like six months at least, where I did not know what to do with my life. I was kinda um disrupted in a way that I felt like everything I'm touching eventually kind of falls apart, and this is very demotivating. But I I always I I have this list of ideas, you know, like on my on my phone I have a notes uh sheet and I have some ideas that I that came up, you know, like in my life, and Shadow Map always was very present, and and after this burnout period, I I decided that it's the right time to finish my master's degree at Technical University of Vienna, and I also decided that I want to do it with this idea of Shadow Map. Like I want to build this application that visualizes sunlight, and I want to do it in a university context so that I can focus on it. I I also got a scholarship, which helped me a lot because it gave me like a very basic um financial um support that would allow me to dive into this. And this is really like everything came together. It was a perfect setup. Like I fulfilled all the criteria to get a scholarship, which is quite strict. So you need you would um need to have worked before for four years, you would need to earn money above a certain level. At the same time, you are only getting it if you're only lacking like a few ECTS, like the points at universities. For me, it was the diploma thesis and the the project, and I think one or two of the hardest classes, which I didn't finish yet. Like one of one of it was geometry for computer scientists, which was like super hardcore uh mathematics, and I again had to get into it because I I didn't do a lot of math. I was working and basically managing in my in my CTO role at the previous startup. So I had to really get back into all of these things. But yeah, everything played together very well.

SPEAKER_01:

Fantastic. So so and and can you talk about like what shadow map is and does? I mean, you've talked about mapping sunlight, but what specifically, like what is it? Yeah, how does it work?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so I mean I'm a computer scientist and engineer, so I I like the phrase to say that channel map is the interface to the sun, which of course is a bold statement. I mean, you gotta see that the sun is it's the largest energy source in the solar system, it's really the foundation of life in our solar system. I mean, you can you gotta think about this and let it let it sink a little bit. It's if you if you see it this way, it's also the the source of consciousness in a way, because everything emerged from the sun. So it's it's a massive player in our all lives. And Shadow Map, the main idea is to make it super easy to connect with the sun in any regard. And of course, like if you start working on this project, you you you talk with stakeholders, with people, everybody comes up with their ideas. Some some main use cases crystallized out quite far, but we we surf everybody basically, but we also see that of course our user base uses it for specific things. Yeah, and what channel map is, it's a it's a I would say a four-dimensional map. So it's not only 3D but also has a time component to it, obviously, because the sun's position is dependent on time, and what it does is that it shows you for any time of the day, for any date of the year, anywhere in the world, based on 3D data, how the sunlight situation looks like, so where you have shade, where you have sunlight at any specific time.

SPEAKER_01:

So I mean it's it's uh it's really impressive because you know, if you want to understand the impact of the sun on anything, you can kind of do it. And I guess it's interesting you come from a computer science background because we couldn't have done this before things like Google Maps and some of the other kind of technologies out there. So you sort of brought together some of these things into that interface.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, it's it's actually even even more complicated because Google Maps and all the maps providers are really awesome, like they do a great job and their products are are stunning. But we on top added like a real-time visualization of shadows. And back then, when I when I started with the diploma thesis, it wasn't even sure whether that's possible. Like I always had in mind to have a web application so that you reach as many people as possible with the lowest hurdles in the way, like it should be easy to use, it should be performant, it should run in real time on any device on the web, like with a web stack, because you know, like you you cannot as a small like I was a one-man show in the beginning, you cannot build native apps for iOS and Android and and the web, so you you gotta make it lean. So it was a web app from the beginning, it still is actually, and and then you also like for the thesis back then, you need to have some some scientific goal. So the the official scientific goal was a feasibility study where whether it's even possible to do it this way. And I had a I had a very clear perspective how I want this application to look like and to work. And I also had many discussions with my supervisors which wanted to go a completely different direction, you know, like only only two-dimensional, quite reduced feature set. But for me, it was always like if I'm doing it this way, I'm not I cannot bring the point across to my to my users, like they wouldn't get it if they get just such a reduced version of it, they wouldn't love it. And and so I really pushed for for this vision I had of a three-dimensional or let's say four-dimensional map. And yeah, I think it turned out very well. I'm I'm very happy I I did it this way.

SPEAKER_01:

Then as time's gone on, you found people to augment your skills, and they've helped build out the proposition into something which which is really really rounded, isn't it? Because you know, it's not just about tracking the sun, you also do things like solar analytics as well, don't you? So can you just can you just talk about some of the other things that you've built out and some of the the applications that you see people using it for at the moment?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. So I mean Shadow Map, the the essential idea was to visualize shadows in in anywhere in the world based on terrain. So you have um mountains and valleys, and of course you have buildings, and then you also have trees. So this was always the idea to be as realistic as possible and gather as much 3D data as possible and also up-to-date data as possible into this product. You have many challenges here. So we're talking about a global product. So Shadow Map works anywhere in the world, and how do you even ensure that the data quality is appropriate? Because you you don't live in many regions, and so you don't know. You basically you basically um try your best, you give your best, and then you get feedback from users, and they're like, hey, but that building in in this valley here, or or this little town in let's say India is not not accurate. So we we get this feedback, um, so you want to make sure that the data quality is there, which is last year we released um integration of Google 3D tiles as well. So we take high quality 3D data from Google, which is even textured, so you have like also the understanding of window areas and doors and balconies and stuff in the data, so you can activate that in our higher tiers at the same time. We upgraded from OpenStreetMap to over tour maps, which just has a massively increased buildings coverage. I don't want to talk wrong numbers, but I think we had 600 million buildings with OpenStreetMap, now we have 2.1 billion buildings with over tour maps, and our aim definitely is to increase the data quality globally. And you've mentioned analytics before, so before shadow map before that, a real-time visualization tool for shadows for any time, any date, anywhere, but it showed you like the the point in time light situation of the shadows, and with analytics we go one step further and we integrate the whole year, so we we take all the sun's positions throughout the whole year and we calculate an like an in integral so we understand how much sunlight is hitting any point in 3D space throughout the year, so that you have an understanding about the solar potential. So, what the result of this is basically kilowatt hours averaged throughout a year, and we also get data like how much sun hours that point gets on average per day, and what percentage that is on the on the theoretical maximum, and this is of course the perfect information you want to have for solar panel installations, and what's really significant here that you get this data in near real time, you can also edit the 3D data so you can add your own 3D models, you can plant trees, you can set up walls, you can also remove existing data so that you can just make a very accurate situation. But, and this is important, we already provide out of the box a very accurate initial situation, so you don't need to model everything from scratch, but you can change and edit things if you want. Then you have the the analytics, and I also want to say that with these analytics, we also incorporate average um atmospheric conditions. So if you're in an area uh U day, for example, if in UK, actually, I'm realizing now that you have more sunlight than I've ever thought UK has, but it's it's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. Okay, okay. I mean Vienna, same in in in winter.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just because the sun follows me around, I mean, I think it's which is a blessing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a blessing. I want to get some of that, yeah. But but so we also take into account average atmospheric conditions, so you have a very accurate um analysis, and and it's really quite cool because we have some customers who who are using shadow map uh analytics and they get back to us because they have solar panels on their houses and they are surprised how accurate it is.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

I wanna I want to say one more thing because that's really cool. Many of the solutions out there are only two-dimensional, so they only cover roof surfaces, whereas shadow map analytics is three-dimensional, so we also have facades covered. Basically, any point in the 3D space is featured and and analyzed and visualized, and this is really cool for like the Nordics, for example, where they it doesn't even make sense so much to have roof solar panels because the sun doesn't rise so high, so you want to have facade solar panels, but there you have a lot of shadowing from neighboring buildings, so you really want to find the most efficient spots to put these.

SPEAKER_01:

It's amazing. I mean, I mean, I think it you know the the solar potential is is just sort of awesome.

SPEAKER_00:

And and you know, looking at the analytics, I've immediately seen the opportunity with my property to yeah, and it's it's it's also like really cool to understand like first glance how how your property is how bright it is throughout the year. So it's not only for solar panels, but it's also like a great indication for a property throughout the year.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and when we first met, you know, you showed me the basic tool and I immediately understood it because I live in a house where you know, frankly, if I'd understood the the shadows and the impact of the sun, I I probably would have still bought it, but I would would have gone in with a kind of completely different attitude in terms of buying it. And I immediately saw like the application of Shadow Map for people when they're looking to buy a house. And one of the things that you've started doing and are looking to kind of really push is is is working with some of the property platforms, so embedding Shadow Map in and helping people who are looking for houses to to understand the impact.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that exactly right? Yeah, totally. So, I mean, as you say, it was quite clear from the beginning that that real estate and property market are a great um target market for us. We we just got the feedback from from our users that they're using is for that, and then we started to to ask our users so hey, how how are you even using Shadow Map? And and then people can say whether it's private or for business, and then they can also say like in which category or vertical they they use Shadow Map. And and the majority of our users on shadow map.org they are using Shadow Map to investigate before they buy land or a property, so the the vast majority. And this give gave us indication: okay, that's pretty clear. Like, Shadow Map is really a great product to be used in in these regards. And I also want to say that our growth up to this point is fully organic, so people just look for this and then they find Shadow Map and then they use it for that, which is also quite cool. But but for us, it was a great indication to approach these real estate platforms and tell them, hey, we have a solution for you, which is completely new, like nothing like this has existed before, and it makes a lot of sense also because it's a web technology, you can embed Shadow Map into your real estate platforms so that for every listing page you have, Shadow Map is already there, and people can just interactively look at the property, they can look at it from all directions, they can look at it at any date. So, for example, right now, if you if you think about maybe maybe if you want to move to Vienna and you want to buy an apartment here, and maybe you look at it right now, so it's it's February, so it's still kind of winter, and you go into this apartment, maybe it's even a sunny day, probably probability is low, but you could still have like some idea how it is right now, but you don't have have any idea how it's gonna be in summer. So, with Shadow Map, you can just go into summer and you can see how the sunlight situation is in summer, and this also, of course, works vice versa, so you can have a look at an apartment in in summer and then have an idea about the winter. And I think, especially in your situation, that was the case that you looked at your house in summer, but you had no idea what it's gonna be in winter, and then you winter arrives, you bought this house already, and you are stuck with it, and you you cannot, I mean, it's like moving into a new place, it's like it's a lot of work. Um, you don't want to do this like all the time. So it makes a lot of sense to to integrate Shadow Map into real estate platforms, because this is what people mainly use it for, and this is just the beginning, I want to say.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I mean, and and you know, I guess as people are looking at houses and considering houses, things like sunlight, you they re it really matters, doesn't it? And I I guess just chatting to you, one of the trends you've seen is that as people get closer to deciding on the house that they want to buy, then they're more likely on some of these platforms to be using Shadow Map. So you know, it seems to be universally people are really interested in. And certainly when I've spoken to people, they've immediately understood that that this is a really important thing. Because I guess if you didn't have Shadow Map, the alternative would be if you wanted to really understand the sun, is you gotta live in the caravan in the garden of the house that you're looking to buy and spend all your sort of tracking. Yeah, so which is it which isn't entirely practical, is it?

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, I think I think one of the issues is like even if you go that route, you would need to wait half a year until you like you could check it out now and then you check it out in summer and then you make a buying decision, but you lose like six months, maybe the property's gone by then already or went up in price or whatever. So we we just uh really simplified it.

SPEAKER_01:

It's really it's really interesting. I mean, let's go back to the sun itself, because I guess what what I love about the whole concept is just its simplicity. So that that idea you had of essentially connecting people with the sun. So not a day goes by now when I don't read something which is about the the the positive impact that the sun has on our health and well-being. Like it things like vitamin D seem to be people are recognizing the importance of vitamin D and you know, just getting outside for even a small amount of time if you know it's gonna be a sunny day, actually maximizing your opportunities. I mean, one of the things you you you mentioned to me, I don't know if you were joking, was you know, giving your staff sundays if you can see that uh the weather's gonna be nice in Vienna. Um I I think the sun I as I say it's that simplicity is is is so great because you could have this whole thing could be very complex and yet you've distilled it down into a simple interface. I mean have you got any kind of thoughts around health and wellness in the sun and the the sort of broader mission I guess that you're on?

SPEAKER_00:

Definitely. I mean, in essence, even the the real estate case that we are pursuing at the moment with the most focus, it's all about health and wellness. Like if you if you bring it down to the end, and those new home buyers or or tenants, they want to maximize their well-being, which is why they're looking for a bright apartment. And and it all comes down to this. And I think we we as humans we have a very um innate and foundational connection to the sun. Like this is just within us, like everything we we put in our bodies, like all the food, it it it grew through sunlight, like photosynthesis is like a super crazy mechanism that transforms sunlight into matter. I mean, actually, this is the name of the podcast, right?

SPEAKER_01:

So um it's you see what I did there, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Like if if you think about this, it's like really it's so profound that it it if you think into it like this can be too much for some people, so it's also like kind of doing this step by step. For me, I had a very personal history with with the sun. I had skin cancer, I think around 10 years ago, and which was really hitting me badly. Like I love surfing, and I was back then I was surfing a lot, like the last years I wasn't so much because I was working too much, but I will gonna go surfing again. But of course, you're exposed to a lot of sunlight. I was using a lot of sunscreen. I think my whole lifestyle back then was just not good. Uh like I was drinking alcohol regularly, I was I wasn't eating clean, I didn't pay attention to my body as much, and I think the the body reacted in a way that made skin cancer appear. I mean, this is like kind of opening up Pandora's box, you know. I think science is currently digging very deep into all these mechanisms, and it's it's it's very groundbreaking. It's also breaking with with old science, which is I think becoming more and more outdated. So you mentioned with vitamin D. I think vitamin D is only one artifact which is just easily recognizable, and we can see the benefits of it, but there's much, much more. Like I'm I'm not a I'm not a um a doctor or so, but I'm I'm of course like interested in all these new science that is emerging, and of course, this needs proper analysis. Um, but I'm also learning that in the past, for example, I think maybe even all skin skin cancer studies were all done with artificial UV light and never never full sunlight spectrum because a study with actual sunlight is just more complicated to set up and it's completely clear, like this all makes sense. There is no it's not people to blame, and we try to simplify models and methodologies for studies to make it somehow feasible, but there should be studies done with actual sunlight instead of doing like just UV lamps because the spectrum is completely different. Like you need, for example, the infrared component in sunlight to absorb UV light properly, and and UV is it's also essential in many many aspects. So I think I've read and I I don't want to talk anything wrong here, but I I read that testosterone, which is a which is a good hormone also for women, it's not only for men, but it's being built if you have cholesterol in your in your system, in your skin cells, so like in the blood cells below the skin, and if it's being hit by sunlight, this is being transformed into testosterone. And so if you if you don't have any sunlight, you you cannot build that hormone, which is essential. And there are many, many, many aspects like the whole circadian rhythm, your sleep pattern, getting getting sunlight into your retina in the morning because because this triggers cortisol production, which is healthy in the morning because it gets you going. And then also if you're outside and have sunlight, as soon as the sun sets, you want to reduce artificial blue light because this interferes again with your circadian rhythm. So there are many, many, many facets to to light itself, but especially sunlight. So sunlight is a very high quality light, and you want to to be in it as much as possible, like without of course getting crazy sunburns. I mean, this is clear.

SPEAKER_01:

No, but there isn't I don't think there's many people who wouldn't say they don't feel better after they've been in the sun. And I I think this is the point of what we're gonna try and cover through this podcast is talking to people who think about these things, understand these things, because it's the simplest thing we can all do for our health and wellness is to spend a bit of time in the sun. It's the simplest thing that we can do from a sustainability point of view is to think about solar on our houses or you know, just accessing the sun more. And it this is just sort of simple, simple stuff. It doesn't necessarily cost anything, does it, to sort of see what the local park looks like in terms of sunlight and kind of go and spend your lunch hour in it from so this is this is great. It's really interesting to hear the origin story. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm really looking forward to talking with you sometimes and other guests about this whole topic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think this is great. Like it's an awesome journey. I think it's really just so cool to to be on a mission of reconnecting humanity with the sun. It's it's really it's a great job. I'm I'm very grateful I have this job.

SPEAKER_01:

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you, Dave.