💡 Light, Health & the Built Environment: Ulysse Dormoy on the Real Cost of Indoor Living

Dave sits down with Ulysse Dormoy, CEO of Atrium Ltd, to explore a subject hiding in plain sight: the light we live under every day — and how it’s quietly impacting our health, performance, and wellbeing 🌞🏙️

What starts as a conversation about lighting design quickly reveals a much bigger story. From LED flicker and infrared deprivation, to the shocking parallels between ultra-processed food and ultra-processed light, Ulysse shares his journey into the world of light as a biological force.

We dive into:
 🔎 How modern offices and homes are robbing us of essential light
 🌿 Why sunlight exposure, shadow mapping, and solar orientation matter more than ever
🧠 The science behind photobiomodulation and its rising popularity
🏢 The silent health risks baked into energy-efficient architecture
🚶‍♂️ What designers, planners, and employers can do to build truly healthy environments

You’ll also hear why Ulysse carries a spectrometer everywhere, what happens when beauty brands get lighting wrong, and how we might be heading towards a "lighting tobacco moment" — where health meets accountability ⚠️

Whether you're an architect, designer, developer, or just spend too much time indoors, this episode will change the way you think about light, space, and health forever 🌇

Sunlight Matters is a podcast exploring the role of the Sun in human health, architecture, cities, and everyday life.

Through conversations with scientists, architects, and technologists, the series examines how natural light shapes our bodies, our buildings, and the way we live indoors.

Hosted by Dave Wallace, Sunlight Matters asks a simple but overlooked question: what happens when we disconnect from the Sun?

Because sunlight isn’t optional. It matters.

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Transcript

Introduction to Atrium and Ulysse’s Journey

Ulysse Dormoy 0:00

Go back a hundred years and you know, heliotherapy was a thing. It was a thing until we found things like antibiotics, which has then meant that we sort of understand that we get better by taking taking something. Like today is being used heavily in a therapeutic sense for all sorts of things. Isn't that a form of supplementation? Isn't that because we've stripped something away that we're now using it in a different sense? It's not entirely different to you know the uh uh sort of the the supplement industry in in nutrition. We've we've stripped a load of stuff out of nutrition and and and now we're we're we're supplementing. So you know the concept of photobiomodulation, which is now a big industry in red and infrared light, it's just a supplementation. You know, if if we if we lived more, if we spent more time outdoors, maybe we wouldn't need it. But we've we're completely ignoring the physiological aspects of light for humans and we've reduced it to luxe. Will architecture and design have an impact on the health of nations in the future? I think it can. And the creators of the built environment need to understand that they can have a massive influence on how we are, how we exist physiologically in the future. A building isn't just a nice thing to have. A building can can can deliver far, far more.

Speaker 3 1:25

Welcome to Sunlight Matters, the podcast that reconnects us with the sun. Join us as we explore the power and influence of our star, the force at the heart of everything. Each episode, we speak with leading experts to uncover the ways sunlight shapes our world.

Dave Wallace 1:42

I've been really looking forward to this conversation. We've had a we've had a couple of chats, and I'm like, um, I think there's a lot of ground to cover. So uh welcome to the podcast, Ulysses. Uh, delighted to have you with us. I I wondered if you could just start by telling us a bit about uh yourself and Atrium, the company that you're the CEO of, uh, and then we can get into it.

Ulysse Dormoy 2:06

Brilliant. Thank you. And thank you for having me on the podcast, by the way. It's uh it's it's nice to be uh nice to be here. Um so yeah, so so um I'm the CEO of of uh Atrium Limited. We uh historically have been a distributor of lighting products. Um today I would say that we've shifted somewhat into a slightly more specialist area. We haven't we haven't uh we haven't relinquished our position as a as a distributor. Um but we've been on an evolving journey. Um and it started about 10 years ago, um I'm gonna say, um, where we started to understand a little bit more about um the impact of lights on humans within the built environment. And at the time, um it was a very simple thing. Um, we decided to um select the drivers that we were purchasing as opposed to just purchasing them from our production partners. And we chose to do that because we felt at the time that we really had a responsibility to try and put the best quality we could into spaces. And um with that, we decided to partner with with one particular brand who um deliver very high quality flicker-free drivers. Um, and and we did that on products that you know um were easy to do, let's say, you know, some products we can't we can't make that uh that change. But gradually from that, we started looking at um at quality of light, what's coming out of the luminaire, forgetting, forgetting form factors, forgetting aesthetics, you know, what is actually being delivered out of a luminaire. And uh with a colleague Jeremy, um, Jeremy and I uh spent a few days wandering up and down Regent Street, Oxford Street, Westfield, whatever, spectrometer, spectrometering anything we could um just to see what was what was uh you know being delivered into retail environments. Um were more accepting than others, some we were sort of politely showing the door. Um and so so so some very high brands actually, how high value brands were were at times showing us the uh the door very politely. Um but what was really interesting there is that we we spent quite a bit of time within the beauty brand arena because we thought, you know, if anyone's gonna have it right, it's gonna be the beauty brands. And shockingly,

The Impact of Light on Human Health

Ulysse Dormoy 4:44

more often than not, they got it horrendously wrong. Um and there was, you know, we we would talk to the to the staff in the stores and and they were commenting on how they were taking their clients outside to see how they'd been made up. And at that point, you're thinking something something's not not right here. And that there was only one brand that I think we found within the beauty and sector that which did it really well. Um and we then subsequently found out that the founders were photographers, so they understood light, they they understood, they understood the sort of the the basic principles. Um so that's that started us sort of on a on a on a pathway. Um and we were then starting to consider what was actually being used within the fixtures that we were buying in and then selling on. Um and it's it's sort of evolved gradually, you know, deeper and deeper. And then early, let's say, um maybe around 2019, 2020, it might have been 2021. I've been spending some time telling people within the business that you know for me, light was sort of uh uh today was somewhere sat between um technology and health and well-being. And annoyingly, um, someone said, well, prove it. Um and uh so so so that that's I say annoyingly, but I say I say in jest actually. Um you know that meant that I needed to start putting some thoughts together, some ideas, some you know, uh you know, going out and trying to find information that would would substantiate the comments. And one of the first pieces I came across was um Scott Zimmerman's um paper on um uh you know uh melatonin and the optics of the human body. And that was that was uh yeah, quite literally eye-opening to me because you know I'd I'd only understood melatonin to be produced by Pineal Gland. Um maybe, maybe that's just my narrow-mindedness um at the time. And it started to it started to sort of evolve from there. Um and bit by bit, you know, I've ended up, yeah, I know you've you've spoken to to Bob and to Glenn on your previous podcast, but yeah, I've ended up meeting them. And yeah, we're we're we're at a point now where I'm at a point maybe, um, and the business may be sort of um going that way too, um, is that once you've learned something, you can't unlearn it. You know, and

The Evolution of Light Understanding

Ulysse Dormoy 7:35

yeah, I think I think there is an opportunity to do good and to think about, yeah, and hopefully, let's say responsibly think about what we are doing to um people when they are in that space. And I know you know the other day we talked a little bit about it, you know. I think I think it's absolutely crazy. That there are there are stronger words I'd like to use, but I'm not sure you might need to use a bleeper um if I was to use them. I think it's absolutely crazy. Well, there you go, there you go. All right, I'm allowed, I'm allowed to say things like that. Okay, yeah, um that you know when we deliver light for plants, we give plants an energetic value of light. You know, it's photon flux, uh, sorry, BPFD, um, photosynthetic photon flux density. Um, and it's an energetic value of light, and we give that to plants because we want plants to be productive. And yet we've narrowed our understanding of light for humans over the period of the last maybe 100 whatever years to a visual aid. And we've completely we're sort of almost completely ignoring everything that we knew that light did in a health and well-being sense, you know, whether that was to um help with uh help you know, cure rickets or or or TB, you know, we've we're completely ignoring the physiological aspects of light for humans and we've reduced it to you know lux. I and we don't do that for plants, and we don't do that for plants because we want them to be productive. Do we not want humans to be productive in their workspace? It's it I just think it's it's bonkers. It's bonkers.

Dave Wallace 9:28

I I I it's it is bonkers. I mean, and and I think we're gonna talk a lot more about that. Um, but I I I was just curious because it sounds like you had intuition around this. And you know, when you talk about quality of light, there's light flicker. Uh I mean I was in Dubai last week and I had a little infrared camera with me, and bloody hell, it was like a a strobe-lighting uh kind of disco in in the in the uh exhibition hall that was there. You could see the flicker, just unbelievable to me. Um but so it was sort of flicker, was the the thing that you kind of identified, and then it feels like you intuited your way into well, there is something else going on. Is that right?

Ulysse Dormoy 10:17

At the time, at the time, um it was more to do with um materiality, how do we represent colours in the right way? Right. So so it wasn't it wasn't so much to do with um

Light in the Built Environment

Ulysse Dormoy 10:32

a human aspect of light. It was more to do with you know environment, how do you make the environment look as good as as it possibly can do? Um and of course, you know, when you strip something, yeah, strip strip uh you know colours out of a light source, then you know objects you know stop being able to render you know that colour um yeah, or uh reflect that colour effectively. Um but it's actually more you know it it it has been a gradual process, um, you know, and uh maybe a slow burn up until more recently. Um and yeah, I I I I think I've I've been in the industry now for uh 30 plus years. Um and honestly, I think it's probably one of the most exciting times. You know, I think I think you know, I don't know which point light will become mainstream in the same context as let's say nutrition or physical exercise, you know. Um uh but I think we're getting closer. Yeah, I I I I think because because the sun comes up and comes down every day, we just assume that that happens. You know, over the last 150 years, we think we're in control of electric light, which we sort of are. We switch for the light on, so we switch it off when we when we want it, when we need it. But we've become uh what's the word I want to use? Um complacent, maybe around light. Um maybe more so than other things like like nutrition and exercise. You know, there's there's there's a huge volume out there on you know healthy eating, you know, the the gut brain axis. It's it it swallows up a huge amount of oxygen. Um physical exercise, you know, takes takes quite a quite a you know chunk of space as well. Sleep science is is is big, but we're not talking about light, I think, in the in in the right context, because I think we are just acclimatized to it. It just it's just there. We accept it as it is without really delving deeper. Yet go back a hundred years and you know, heliotherapy was was was a thing. It was a thing until we found things like um antibiotics, which has then meant that we sort of understand that we get better by taking by taking something. But light today is being used heavily in a therapeutic sense um for all sorts of things, uh but isn't that a form of supplementation? Isn't that because we've stripped something away that we're now using it in a in a in a different sense? It's not entirely different to you know the uh the sort of the the supplement industry in in in nutrition. You know, we've we've stripped a load of stuff out of nutrition

The Importance of Quality Light

Ulysse Dormoy 13:35

and and and now we're we're we're supplementing. So you know the concept of photobiomodulation, which is now a big industry in red and infrared light, it's just a supplementation. You know, if if we if we lived more, if we spent more time outdoors, maybe we wouldn't need it.

Dave Wallace 13:53

Um I mean it it is it's crazy, isn't it? I mean, you you like I mean you talk about going back a hundred years, we would have lived a much more outdoor lifestyle. We were surrounded by uh light sources which were kind of giving off infrared light, and you you know, you you you mentioned Glenn uh and Bob, and a lot of what they've been looking at is the impact of infrared light on how our metabolism works. But it's so bloody obvious. Like I was on a plane watching the documentary about the origin of humans. The thing I learned was we spent all our time outside as we were evolving uh on the on the uh savannas of Africa and in the forests of Africa, and then we started moving out, but it across that whole entire time we were outside, and you know, it it's kind of crazy to think that light wouldn't be impacting us. I mean, it's just you know, and you go back to the origin of life itself, the first sort of Lucre or whatever it's called that sort of crawled out the primordial swamp. What was the first thing it had to deal with? Is light, you know. So as you say, it's kind of crazy that we've sort of honed in on plants and then forgotten about us and you know, other living things as well. And you you know, as you say, this feels like um it feels like a it new science, but it's not really new, is it? But it's very interesting that you know it is exciting because it's sort of rediscovering something. Um so so I mean, we've ended up as a I I I guess a lot more indoors. We're under LED lights. Can you just talk a bit about the sort of in the the the built environment, the lights that we're sort of sitting under and some of the the the sort of observations you've got on that?

Ulysse Dormoy 16:01

So um yeah, within the built environment, you know, we've we've pushed heavily for um energy efficiency, you know, energy efficiency for environmental sustainability. And I'm not against environmental sustainability at all, I'm just gonna say that now. Um, but I think at some point we need to start thinking about striking a balance between environmental sustainability and human sustainability. And you you mentioned um the uh you know impact of infrared light on on our metabolic system. Um and the fact that we've

Light and Human Sustainability

Ulysse Dormoy 16:37

stripped it out completely. Yeah, and and we stripped it out, you know, let's say without really knowing, because we didn't have the science at the time, uh, what the long-term impact was. You know, we took infrared uh infrared out because it was deemed to be wasteful, because it was consuming energy, but not delivering anything functional as we understood it at the time. You know, so it wasn't delivering visible light, and we understood we've we had understood light in a uh in that context, I think as a as a visual aid. Um it's only really more recently that we've started to understand, and with the work, yeah, not just uh Glenn but and Glenn and Bob but others too, that light has a deep impact within our within our physiology. And and it's not just at the infrared end, it's at the is at the ultraviolet end. I'm not sure if you were on on the uh uh talk the other day with Richard Weller. Yeah, absolutely fascinating. Um, you know, ultraviolet isn't just about vitamin D, it's about you know nitric oxide, you know, yeah, all sorts of stuff that that again is is is being found out. And I'm and I'm fascinated to learn more about what the impact of green light is next week. Um but across the colour.

Dave Wallace 17:58

I'm sat here with some green light, by the way, because uh I'm really looking forward to that.

Ulysse Dormoy 18:04

Um yeah, there's things going on across the whole of the electromagnetic spectrum, let's say, or within within the light context. Um, but our indoor environments have narrowed that down to somewhere between 380 and 725, somewhere around there in terms of nanometers. Uh, I actually took a measurement, uh, I I got a new spectrometer um about a month ago, and I took a measurement last night um at home. Um we moved into a new build property uh just well, a year and a half ago. Um, I got really excited actually. I got really excited when we moved in because um because I looked at the down lights, which looked fairly cheap. Um, and um actually they were really cheap as I found out. Um, but yeah, I I could I could see I could see two colours of diodes. I could see two colours of diodes, down diodes, and I'm thinking, that's amazing. They've put dim to warm into the house. So if I went to buy a dimmer switch and dimmed it down and and there's no no impact, I probably should have pulled the downlight out of the ceiling at the time because it wasn't dim to warm, it was a dip switch setting on the back, which would give me 3,000k, 4000k, or 6,000k. I mean, why you'd want 6,000 K on a residential downlight, I have no idea, or even even in a commercial setting, I'd have no idea. But we're we're pumping stuff in to um indoor environments, the built environment, but often it's not the occupier who's making

The Cost of Poor Lighting

Ulysse Dormoy 19:38

that choice. So we're prescribing light, our industry is prescribing light onto people, and very often when it goes down the value engineering process, that quality of light is being absolutely decimated. Uh not that long ago, probably about a year, 18 months ago, we were asked to go and visit a project that where the client was um the it's a commercial office space, the um the occupier was telling us that they're having lots of issues. Um we sort of knew a bit about the project, we knew that it'd gone through a value engineering process. So off we off we popped with the spectrometer, you know, talk a little bit to the client. Did you did you um uh yeah, did was there a value engineering process? Yes. Uh we sort of knew the answer to that already, get the spectrometer out. And what was originally specified as CRI 90 was actually CRI 80 with a with an R9, which is which is the red measurement of uh minus 3.4 if I remember rightly. So decisions are being made for capital cost uh control which bears no value on the operational cost later on, because actually what was happening there is that they had a whole heap of people complaining that they couldn't work in that office because the lighting environment was so bad. Um so I don't know many occupiers who aren't trying to get people back into the office, um, get people working together, you know, collaboratively. And yet what better excuse has the occupier given to their staff than to say, you know, I can't work in the office, I'm gonna have to work from home. I just can't, you know, they've spent millions on this space, but they've cut costs at the capital, you know, sort of investment point at the at the cost of the operational aspect. And um I don't know if you spotted it, I posted something a few weeks back on on Jones Lang LaSalle had done this thing, the 330, 300. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did see that one. Where where three is the value of the you know energy cost of the building, 30 is the rent of the building, and 300 is the 300 is the is the staff cost. But if you make 1% change to the 300, it's vastly different to 1% change at the 3.3 uh level, you know, in terms of saving energy. Now, I'm not saying that we go back to incandescent, you know. I know that some people will say that that's what we should do. And I would agree that as a broadband emitter of infrared, you can't get better than a burning source. But I think we're a little bit too far down the line today to be able to necessarily pull that back.

The Future of Light in Our Lives

Ulysse Dormoy 22:41

That said, I am going to admit that anywhere at home that I can put an incandescent lamp in, I have put an incandescent lamp in. And having having spectrometered what we had last night, you know, and it and literally on the on the uh installed fixtures, you know, it literally stops at 7.25. There's nothing else. Light some light some candles, put some incandescent lights on, and all of a sudden your environment changes. So, you know, incandescent light sources deliver give us a huge broadband um you know uh infrared output. Whereas even if we go into into LEDs, they're always going to be narrowband emitters, so they're never going to be as good. But I don't think we're gonna go back to, I don't think we're gonna be able to convince the world to go back to incandescent.

Dave Wallace 23:31

If you're enjoying Sunlight Matters, make sure to subscribe and leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform. You can also search Sunlight Matters on Google to find more episodes, guest information, and further insights about sunlight analysis, solar exposure, and the way light shapes our spaces. I mean it it it is interesting though, because you know, you talk about um people finding it difficult to work. I mean, I I've I've changed all my light bulbs for incandescent, except a couple, which you know, my wife likes to leave a light on overnight, and I'm like, well, there's no point in having that as a as an incandescent. I look at the light and it physically makes me feel terrible. I mean, I I and I couldn't describe why. I mean, but it always, you know, I've responded over the years very badly to lighting, and so other people are doing that. So you you're right about productivity, but there's also health as well. So, you know, I was in the Middle East last week and um I did a talk on the sun and was actually invited by First Abu Dhabi Bank, uh, the head of sustainability, who he he I've talked to him a bit about light, and and you know, he was brave enough to put me on a stage. Uh, and you know, at this this huge conference, I was the only, it was it was a conservation conference, you know, with tens of thousands of people attending. I was the only person talking about the sun beyond solar. Um but what's interesting is in doing my homework, I found out that the rate of diabetes in uh the UAE is 21%. 21%. Now, diabetes is a massive precursor to strokes and heart attacks. Like, you know, this is terrible. So when you talk to people in the UAE, they say, Oh, it's because we got sugary food and you know, there's uh inactivity and all the other bits and pieces. But if you compare it to other countries where that would be a similar profile, it's not they don't have the same level. But what the what you do have in the UAE is nobody goes outside because it's too hot. Most people spend their their lives, you know, 996 or whatever the work ethic is in badly lit, uh well, LED lit workspaces um behind glass that has taken every bit of sort of nutritional uh light out. Uh and you know, they're just not getting any outside time. So you know, I was like telling this to them, and I think it was the first time most people had heard this. And you know, my advice was look, you're not going to change the lighting in your office, so go to IKEA, buy a buy an angle poise lamp, pop it on your desk and put an incandescent bulb in, which you know doesn't feel like a long-term fit. But I guess the point I'm coming to is that the genie might be slightly out of the bottle now. So, you know, if I work in an office and I end up uh with I don't know, diabetes or something like that, and you know, I can prove that the the the people who own the office knew that that there was a kind of link or there was causality, you sort of feel like people are storing up problems for the future. So so now is the time to kind of really get your head around this, isn't it?

Ulysse Dormoy 27:13

So so I don't see this, or I I I haven't seen this, and I've been saying it for a little while, um as something very different to um the tobacco industry. No. I I'm I'm going a little bit sort of extreme, maybe, but yeah, the I suppose the difference is is that maybe the tobacco industry knew a little bit more about the impact that they were having than than they led on to over time. Um but you're right, I think the genie is coming out of the bottle. Uh I think we're understanding more. I think the there are more devices on the market, whether it's a red stroke, infrared light panel, which are quite expensive, uh, or whether it's an infrared red light face mask. And I think that the we're seeing more of that in the cosmetic cosmetic arena. And I think the public are generally a little bit more aware of things like red and infrared light through those devices, but they haven't yet correlated it to the the indoor environment. They haven't quite made the made the made the connection because I don't think anyone's really talking about it necessarily openly enough about what we've what we stripped out. And you're right, you know, we're we we're spending huge amounts of time indoors. Um, you know, for us, the Europeans supposedly about 10% of our time is outdoors, the Americans are 7%, that's well pretty well documented. Um, and UAE is something like 96% indoors, yeah. Um, but then you've also got to look at seasonality, and um, I don't know if you spotted, but if not, I'll I'll share it with you. There was a um a study done in America with about 58,000 um respondents, um, supported by Apple. Um and um, you know, looking at how people spend their time outdoors based on the time in daylight part of the health app. And actually, when you come to the winter, you know, and and let's say it's probably not very different for us, you know, we might be outdoors 40 minutes a day in daylight, you know, which is quite limiting. So there's also seasonality to this, um, and that that correlates quite nicely with the stuff that Richard Weller was talking about in terms of you know heart attacks and strokes, you know, being more prevalent in in um in the uh sort of uh early parts of the year, yeah, January, February time. Um, but yeah, actually just touching on a few points that you mentioned there, you know, diabetes. Diabetes costs the UK, if I remember rightly, something nine billion a year. Yeah, if we can help maintain or sort of, yeah, if if from the studies that Glenn's done and the and yeah, and the work that he's done, if we can create indoor environments. That support our metabolism, then we're going to be saving money somewhere down the end of the road. So it's not that we're necessarily adding to our energy consumption, because we're we'll be taking it from somewhere else. Yeah, we'll be taking the money from somewhere else. Yeah, it's it's it's um you know making use of light as a preventative.

The Connection Between Health and Productivity

Ulysse Dormoy 30:25

And yeah, rather than having it there just as a therapeutic, let's let's do something about it being uh preventative. You also mentioned about productivity and health. I don't necessarily think that these two things are uh disassociated, because actually, when we look at our health in the context of mitochondrial function, mitochondrial function is effectively what's making us productive. You know, that's what's generating our energy. And if those long wavelengths of light, um, and I say if I think it's quite well known that they do respond to light, uh, the long wavelengths help us to produce ATP, then that's increasing our energy. Um and surely then our productivity in a physiological sense, which if our productivity in a physiological sense is then mapped back out to you know what we're actually producing work-wise, you know, it's it it I think there are dots that exist that can be joined together quite quite easy, easily.

Dave Wallace 31:27

And I think, I mean, it it is like so simple this stuff. Like when you kind of start considering it, it is so simple. Unfortunately, we live in a world where simple doesn't make money. And you know, I I was kind of keen to talk about like you know, comment you made to me about LED lights being they're ultra-processed, like you know, we live in ultra-processed environments, and you you said it's a bit like the the food industry where you know vast sums of money have been made over um ultra-processed food. We've seen and you know, that there's been sort of vilification of kind of natural foods and uh throughout that story. And I I just wondered if you could talk a bit about the the parallels that you see.

Ulysse Dormoy 32:20

Oh,

Vilification of Natural Elements

Ulysse Dormoy 32:21

absolutely. Um can I can I just touch on the word vilification there of natural foods? I don't think it's very dissimilar to the vilification of the sunlight.

Dave Wallace 32:30

No, yeah.

Ulysse Dormoy 32:30

No, no, and there's a huge amount of money being made every year in products to to supposedly keep us away from you know keep us away from harm of sunlight. Um yet if you look at Richard Weller's stuff, you know, deaths from melanoma seem to be pretty, pretty flat. Um, but so um coming back to the coming back to your question about um foods and stuff, you know, I think the minute you start stripping something out, you know, and you start to process it and it then becomes ultra-processed, you know, it comes back, and we've we've used the word together before, convenience, you know, fast food, it's about convenience, but we've stripped a load of stuff out. So as a consequence, we've then created this secondary industry, which is all about supplementation, because we've stripped all the good stuff out of the out of the original product, and we need supplementation. Um, transport, yeah, our transport in in systems, let's say today, you know, we use we use cars, we use buses, we use, we use trains. In a certain sense, those are ultra-processed forms of transport. Yeah, we used to use our legs, um, you know, we then moved to think riding horses, but that was still a physical activity, you know. Let's say maybe riding horses a little bit more processed than than than using our own uh our own physical um uh elements.

The Impact of Processed Environments

Ulysse Dormoy 33:52

But then we've created another supplementation, which is gyms. You know, we you know that that's our supplement for not using our body during the day as we used to do, you know, as yeah as we evolved. Light today has been processed to a point now where I think we it's it's probably fair to say it's ultra-processed because we've stripped out you know components that were of value, and then we have an industry around photobiomodulation, which is supplementation again. So I think convenience drives towards supplementation, whether we like it or not, it's just the way it's evolved. Um, and I should say, you know, let's let's move the terminology slightly. Yeah, we're talking about lighting, but I think if we re-bring it back down to light, um, then we start we then we can start talking about glazing. Um, because it's not just the lighting environment, it's also as a consequence of the glazing that we've put onto buildings. Um, I was at a client's space um at the end of last week with with my lovely new spectrometer. Uh it goes up to 950 nanometers, so so it takes me beyond the visible spectrum, which is great. Um, they have a north facing building, it's all glazed, floor to ceiling glazing, take a spectrometer uh reading, and there's nothing in in the infrared whatsoever. You know, it's it's been the coat, the glazing is very well coated, clearly. Um, yeah, open a window, take a take a reading, and there's tons of infrared out there. Close the window, there's there's there's literally nothing. So again, here is a here is a a point where we've processed our access to light, this time through glazing. And there are loads of brands out there, glazing brands, that talk about um, you know, talk about uh you know uh how healthy light is, but they're selling a product which is actually coated. So they themselves are part of the problem of the built environment in a in a light context, not a lighting context, but in a light context. So, you know, maybe with architecture, and this is something that Bob is is is um pretty strong on, but also Glenn, I know we've we've spoken he and I have spoken about it quite a lot of times, is that if you've got north-facing windows, why have they been coated? You know, why are we not why are we not letting the sort of the natural light come through, the pure quality of light? I get the fact that on east, west, south facing windows, you'd want to maybe coat that because of the fact that you know you don't want the solar heat gain. Um but why the north face? Why why does the north face have to be there? And I and I know there are architects talking to the to the glazing companies, so the glass companies, about yeah, are there ways to make these films um in such a way that they allow some of the good stuff to come back into the environment? So it's not just a lighting problem, it's a light problem. Um and it stretches beyond the lighting industry into the glazing industry. We we we we all need to think about what we're doing. You

Legislative Challenges in Health and Environment

Ulysse Dormoy 37:16

know, and and you know, if I remember Scott Zimmerman's quote, you know, that uh, you know, I can't remember it off the top of my head, but he he basically says that you know, right now we're going through the biggest reduction in solar exposure in human history, and that sort of suggests that we don't know what the outcome is. We don't know what's going to happen further down the line, but actually we can do something about it. I think we can make some changes. One of the challenges here is that I don't think this is a technological problem. In fact, I know it's not a technological problem. The problem is a legislative one, and we need to shift the the thinking. We need to shift, you know. There's not a year that's gone by in the last probably 10, 15 years, maybe longer, where we don't hear about the NHS, you know, and the problems that it's got. And, you know, can't we help the process by allowing people to be healthier within their workspaces or their their indoor environment? Doesn't it doesn't need to be a workspace. So that further on down the line, you know, we have less issues. You know, I I was awakened to the concept of morbidity compression and morbidity expansion by the guys at the Guy Foundation, um, Alistair Nunn in particular. And that's where you know you try and have as healthy as life as long as possible, and you you the gap between healthy and unhealthy is limited. But at the moment, I feel that we're creating spaces that actually allow for morbidity expansion. So we become unhealthier early, and you know, our unhealthy life you know expands for a longer period of time. Yeah, it's not just light, but light food or light nutrition movement, they they're all part of the mix, but I think light has been ignored as a significant player, and I think that needs that needs to change.

The Importance of Light in Health

Dave Wallace 39:25

And I so I I think it's so fascinating because you know, as you say, it has been ignored, it's very little understood. I mean, just just one thing I was kind of pondering on that is, and I think it it was mentioned on one of the Guy Foundation talks, is we're sort of understanding some of the the wavelengths and their impact on the body. There's a lot more work to be done in understanding what other wavelengths might be doing, which I find fascinating that you know this is kind of new science as well. Um but I I I I think it's it's like that whole point of being much more holistic in terms of the way we look at things, and it's it's really kind of countercultural as well. So you you know, we as you say, like our we're bombarded by supplementation to fix a problem, which is you know, we're eating ultra-processed food. I mean, the actual answer is to stop eating ultra-processed food and eat natural food, isn't it? Like, you know, we we stick on these infrared things on our faces, the photobiomodulation devices, as you as you say. When the answer might be just to get up a bit earlier and get in the morning sun, you know. So, and that actually is one of the real challenges, I think, for the lighting movement. I'm gonna call it movement, is that there's perhaps not that much money to be made out of it because I and I I totally take your point though around innovation in terms of the built environment. I think there's a huge amount to be done, but the answer might be just get a dog and go outside in the morning a bit more, you know, and um sit under a tree at lunchtime. And it's it's so simple. Like, I mean, I say this to my family. I mean, I sent my son off to university with an incandescent bulb as my parting gift. I I knew he's not gonna see the look the the sun for the next three years. Um, but I think my family all think I'm a bit of a lunatic, but I'm like, no, I I know there's something here because it kind of makes so much

Cultural Shifts and Outdoor Activity

Dave Wallace 41:42

sense, doesn't it?

Ulysse Dormoy 41:43

So so so so I I uh yeah, I think my lot um might have thought I was a bit of a lunatic, and they they've they've come on board you know quite quite well now. Um probably because they've seen me spectrometer just about everything I possibly can do. And so they they they they no longer think it's completely completely weird. Um I think yeah, there is there is a your your point is absolutely valid about um about getting a dog and going and spending out time outdoors, but I think we also have to be realistic. And our trajectory isn't that. No, I don't think you know, uh our our course of evolution is going to, I think, continue to drive us further indoors um rather than outdoors. You know, you have to make a conscious effort to to go and spend more time outdoors, um, and yet we've got these things, you know, devices, all sorts of stuff, which which um enable us to spend less time outdoors. You know, I I'm of an age, and I think maybe maybe uh you might be too, where you know if you wanted to go and see your mates, you know, then you'd pick up a phone which had a cable on it, um, you'd make a call, you'd arrange to go and meet them in the park, and you'd spend the day in the park. You know, nowadays, you know, if you want to spend time with your mates, you don't even have to leave your bedroom. You know, you can, you know, there's there's been a complete cultural shift. And um there's a guy called uh Dr. David Pearlmutter who wrote a book called I'll try and remember the name of the book now. Um I can't remember the name of the book. Anyway, um it'll come back to me at some point. And he he he coined a phrase called um uh uh oh now the phrase is gone. Oh no, hang on. Um no, no, here we go. Evolutionary environmental mismatch. Um and he's he was he's a he's a urologist, and he was basically saying that you know, for him, it takes our physiology somewhere between 40,000 years and 70,000 years to adapt to the environment. So technically speaking, we are still hunter-gatherers and we're living in this digital age. There's a that there's there's a there's a mismatch. So physiologically, we've been built to spend an enormous amount of time outdoors. You know, this this this shift into the indoor environment is not natural for us. And as a consequence, we we have this issue which um is driving us towards supplementation. Um but I think we can if the industry is you know ready to think about it in a slightly different way, um, then I think we can we can do good or do better, let's say, than what we're doing. Um and um you know Ty Farrow when I when I spoke to him uh beginning of this year, you know, he said the hippo Hippocratic oath doesn't go far enough. Do no harm is not good enough. You know, we have to do better. And I think I agree with him. Um and in the context of you know, is there any money to be made from this? I think there is. You know, I think, but there's also potentially a level of satisfaction that when we put something into a space, we we we can potentially understand that we're doing better than we are today. Because again, I come back to the point at the start is that once you've learned something, you can't unlearn it. You know, I don't think the industry is doing well enough today for it's doing better than it was, you know, the quality of light coming out of an LED today is better than it was, but we're still missing vital components. And you know, the the the the if I if I go to a comparative a comparison with the space station, you know, when you looked at um the two astronauts who spent nine months on the space station, they came back, you know, significant signs of mitochondrial aging, um, accelerated mitochondrial aging. My question is, what is the difference between our indoor um our indoor built environment um settings to the space station? And I've come to the conclusion that there's not actually that much difference. You know, the only difference is that we have the choice and we can step outside. And those moments of stepping outside is slowing down that that aging process. And of course, they that they're subjected to, well, they were subjected to nine months of ultra, ultra-processed food on the space station. You know, there's probably not a lot of greenery being grown up there. Um, there's radiation, there's there's gravitational issues, but the lighting environment is part of the mix. Um, and our indoor environments a you know, if it you know, if a lighting designer gets involved, they're going to put the best quality of light they possibly can. If a contractor has a choice, they think they're gonna value engineer it to to within inches of its life. Light is being prescribed onto people, and as a consequence of that, we need to try and do the absolute best we can because we know we now understand much, much better the impact that we're having, not just on people's mental health, but on their physiological health.

Dave Wallace 47:09

Well, it's it's very interesting. I mean, just just you know, we kind of need to wrap up, I think, but I I did want to pick up on one thing you said about the trajectory, which is more indoors. I it it's we've had a little chat about this, about kind of convenience. Maybe com maybe convenience is the kill switch on humanity. So the Brits who uh, you know, they started the Industrial Revolution, you know, it's the bloody Brits again. Uh maybe what they started was the a sort of trajectory which is sort of heading us towards you know, you know, an ill future, basically. And um I think it's interesting because I do agree with you, like convenience is such a powerful pull on us. You know, I I remember I did a degree in psychology and my one of my lecturers saying the brain is a lazy organ, and what she meant was it's it's searching for the the path of least resistance the whole time. And I kind of have held that as a philosophical grounding for much of what I've done, and it sort of feeds into that kind of convenience narrative. I I sort of wonder whether actually we need to do a lot more to kind of get people outside to you know make sure our children go to the park, our our young people go for walks. You know, when I was growing up, my parents would always take me out for a walk on a Sunday. So you, you know, it's sort of like going to legislation, as you say, like we need to maybe we need to legislate for kind of pushing back against convenience, you know. So I I don't know if you've got any sort of final thoughts on that at all.

Designing Healthier Urban Spaces

Ulysse Dormoy 48:57

Well, I think you know, part of the game here is again, sits sits potentially with with the creators of the built environment is um how do we create those spaces that make people want to spend time outdoors? Um, and added to that, when they are outdoors, how do we um ensure that they get the best quality nutrients when they're out there? Um and you know, when I say that, I'm sort of then referring to how the how these outdoor spaces, how the how the urban environments are designed. Yeah, and I I I like you know, again, just slightly crazily, you know, took my spectrometer out for a walk with us um uh the other week, um, took a took a reading of you know, you know, clear sky, clear blue sky, and then took a reading um, you know, within within uh sort of uh a wood, and the volume of infrared is phenomenal in the wood. Yeah, so yeah, how do how do we create these spaces that are actually nutrition nutritionally good for us um as opposed to big urban sort of developments, you know, with with hard landscape um you know as as the main feature in between buildings. Um let's shift that a little bit so that we'd you know, we're using, yeah, we evolved with nature. There's a reason, yeah, there's there's an amazing circularity with nature. You know, we breathe out CO2, they they give us back oxygen, they take the CO2 in. They don't like, you know, plants and trees don't like infrared, and we're starting to understand that we we really need it. So there's this there's this circularity that happens. Um and you know, it's it's no, it's I I don't think you know, talking, talking about you know mental health, um, brain health, let's say, you know, it's no big surprise that you've got organizations like mind who have allotments. You know, it's to get people outside, it's to get people out in nature because we all feel better in those environments. So, you know, let's take some of these different points from different areas. And I think there's there's um, you know, we can we can do that um to benefit people in general. And look, I I get really excited these days, and this is really weird because I never thought I'd get excited about this sort of stuff, but I get really excited these days when I see you know a building where an architect is planning to have roof terraces, because all of a sudden, that roof terrace is not just a beautiful area for people, it's a it's an area for people to get you know a healthy boost of of energy from the environment. And again, I've come back to the end of glazing. If your roof terrace is on the north face, you know, put normal glazing in, let the infrared come into the building, let people get what they need. I I think there's I I I did a uh well, I've got I've got an R A B A C P D on light and health. And one of the final closing remarks is, you know, will architecture and design have um an impact on the health of nations in the future? I think it can. Yeah. You know, and and the creators of the built environment hopefully need to understand that they can have a massive influence on how we are, how we uh exist physiologically in the future. A building isn't just a nice thing to have. A building can can can deliver far, far more. Um, and I think that's where we need to get to. You know, how do we get to that point?

Dave Wallace 52:39

No, fantastic, fantastic. Well, I look, I've talked to uh people like Nico Gentili. I don't know if you've come across Nico and um Mandana Khani from UCL who are really on this. So, you know, they're they're there educating the next uh wave of architects sort of coming through, and I think uh trying to make sure that they really focus on on understanding that this is important. But but listen, thank you so much. It's been we've covered so much ground. Uh, like all of these things, I'm sure we could talk for a long, long time. Could you just just a couple of final seconds on, you know, we're heading into winter. Um you know, I've asked people like Roger Spelt and uh uh Bob and Glenn and Scott what their views are in terms of sort of how you survive winter. Have you got any sort of short tips?

Ulysse Dormoy 53:37

Um I I I think I think, you know, um look during during the winter months for us Brits, let's say, yeah, we're we're we're about to go into a period where there's not much light in the morning, there's not much light in the evening, you know, maybe you know, make a concerted effort to go for a walk after lunch, you know, um out in the daylight. And and actually you're gonna do two things. You know, once you what once you can yeah, for for the for the nutritionists out there, once you've consumed your food food, go for a walk, yeah, you're gonna stimulate your mitochondria, yeah, you're gonna reduce your blood glucose levels that way, but actually you're gonna get outside as well at the same time. And there's there's other benefits. So, so maybe you know the two combined um you know allows you to to do two and two equals five, right? So, so there's that in a in in one sense. And and whilst this is you know hopefully not a plug for Amazon, you know, if you want to buy some incandescent lamps, you know, they're still they're still available out there. And you can buy and you can buy them in packs of 10, you know, and just go and chuck some incandescence, you know, in you know, into the places where where where you can. Um so I think it's a mixture of things, but I think without a doubt, you know, get some outdoor time, you know, because when you know coming back to that um that study um in America, you know, what when we hit the the winter months, we're down to maximum sort of like 40 minutes a day uh of daylight, which is which is you know quite limiting. And physiologically, we need so much more. We need so much more.

Dave Wallace 55:06

And uh, you know, people getting outside, don't worry about being in a t-shirt because the infrared gets through your clothes. So listen, thank you so much for joining. Uh really enjoyed that conversation. It's a and um look forward to seeing you uh in the audience at the Guy Foundation's talk next week, which I should say the Guy Foundation's talks are an absolute must. Um, some of the the best content around this topic. Uh, and it's all available on YouTube. So a bit of a plug for them.

Ulysse Dormoy 55:39

Absolutely. And yeah, they're doing they're doing great work. It's been great talking to you, Dave. Um, and thank you for inviting me. Um, I'm not I'm not I'm I'm not the science, but maybe I'm a I'm a different angle. Fantastic. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Have a great day. And you. Cheers, take it.

Dave Wallace 55:59

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