Built for the Sun

What if better health begins not with another device, supplement or complicated routine, but with something far more fundamental: reconnecting with nature?

In this episode of Sunlight Matters, Dave Wallace speaks with Nathan Siles, a biophysics specialist focused on foundational health. Nathan’s interest in the subject is deeply personal. Legally blind following retinoblastoma as a baby, he later faced another cancer diagnosis at 24. Those experiences led him to explore the relationship between light, environment and human biology.

Nathan argues that sunlight is not simply a source of vitamin D. It is an environmental signal that helps regulate our circadian rhythm, hormones, mitochondrial function, mood and energy. Sunrise prepares the body for the day, while the timing and quality of the light we encounter can be as important as the amount we receive.

The conversation also explores Nathan’s experience of living in Melbourne, where significant lifestyle changes and greater sun exposure initially failed to improve his vitamin D levels. After moving much closer to the equator, he says those levels doubled within three months. This raises a wider discussion about latitude, altitude, urban environments and the many factors that may affect how our bodies respond to sunlight.

Nathan is sceptical of the increasingly complex wellness industry. While modern tools may have a place, he believes they are approximations of something nature already provides freely: sunlight, fresh air, contact with the Earth, natural food, movement and time in green spaces.

As he puts it: “Nothing will replace the Sun.”

In this episode

Dave and Nathan discuss:

• Nathan’s experience of childhood cancer, blindness and a second cancer diagnosis at 24
• Why his health journey led him towards biophysics and foundational health
• The difference between merely being in the Sun and being biologically able to use its energy
• Why sunrise acts as an important signal for the body
• The influence of latitude, altitude and season on sunlight exposure
• The relationship between light, mitochondria, dopamine and circadian rhythms
• Why changing your environment can sometimes be as important as changing your behaviour
• Nathan’s concerns about artificial light, Wi-Fi and electromagnetic fields
• Grounding, cold exposure and reconnecting physically with nature
• Why expensive wellness technology cannot fully reproduce the natural world
• The importance of food, movement, green space and everyday contact with the outdoors
• How simple environmental changes can form the foundations of a healthier life

A central idea

Throughout the conversation, Nathan returns to one compelling principle:

“You can’t get well in the same environment in which you became sick.”

His message is not that modern technology has no value, but that it should not distract us from the biological foundations on which human health was built. We evolved with sunrise, darkness, seasonal change, natural landscapes and direct contact with the Earth. A century spent increasingly indoors does not erase billions of years of evolution.

About Nathan Siles

Nathan Siles is a biophysics specialist whose work explores foundational health through the relationship between the body and its environment. His perspective brings together biophysics, biomechanics and psychological and spiritual wellbeing.

Nathan is also a co-author of Biotra, written with chiropractor Nick Dawr and psychotherapist Ryan Baracloff.

BioTra: An Approach to Healthy Living in a Modern World. A practical framework for understanding health through the lens of mitochondrial biology, circadian rhythms, light, water, nutrition and our relationship with the natural environment. https://biotra.com.au

Nathan is running an Immersion Session in Mexico

BioTra Immersion, Tulum, Mexico (27 October to 1 November): A six-day, five-night educational experience designed to help people reconnect with nature while exploring mitochondrial biophysics, biomechanics, psychospiritual wellbeing, circadian health and the foundations of a nature-aligned life. https://biotra.com.au/immersion

The takeaway

Health has become an enormous and often bewildering marketplace. Yet Nathan’s advice is refreshingly simple: spend more time outside, see the morning light, move through green spaces, reduce unnecessary technological exposure and allow the natural world to do what it has always done.

Nature is not an optional addition to human health. It is the foundation.

This episode discusses personal experiences and health-related ideas that may not reflect established medical consensus. It is intended for general information and should not replace professional medical advice.

Sunlight Matters is a podcast exploring the role of the Sun in human health, architecture, cities, and everyday life.

Through conversations with scientists, architects, and technologists, the series examines how natural light shapes our bodies, our buildings, and the way we live indoors.

Hosted by Dave Wallace, Sunlight Matters asks a simple but overlooked question: what happens when we disconnect from the Sun?

Because sunlight isn’t optional. It matters.

Please do not forget to Like and Subscribe. 

Transcript

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Nathan Siles (00:00)
People go in this modern world they say, Well, nature's not enough. I've heard people say that. it's just

Dave (00:04)
Really?

Nathan Siles (00:05)
it's not powerful enough. It's like, you know, blah blah blah, we're too chemically poisoned. It's not I need I need something more. I need stem cells. I need peptides. I need a panel. I need to turbocharge my cells with PMF or voltage. There's not enough touching the earth. I don't feel an electric shock when I touch the earth with my bare feet. I need to feel a a machine pulse.

Me or a hyperbaric oxygen chamber pumping oxygen into my cells, like breathing oxygen next to a pine tree with the highest surface area leaf emitting huge amounts of oxygen is not enough because it's only 21%. I've heard people say this and I'm here to tell you, it is more than enough. It is so much more than enough. You just have to be there to capture it.

Dave (01:10)
Hey, Nathan, welcome to the show. Really delighted to have you. I wonder, could you start by introducing yourself and give us a bit of your background?

Nathan Siles (01:20)
Yeah, absolutely. Dave, great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. my name's Nathan Siles. I'm a biophysics specialist specializing in foundational health, which is the 8020. So the 80% of what everyone should pretty much be doing in order to stay healthy and away from chronic disease. so I I've studied underneath a lot of world experts in various fields, and I'm very lucky to be able to you know go to the authors of the textbooks and speak to those those people or the people in labs actually doing

studies. So this is how I kind of became a bit of a citizen scientist and learned to be you know a helpful health practitioner over the years. So I started I started my journey with a disability. So I was I'm legally blind. I had retinoblastoma at eight months old and that left me you know living a bit of a different life. And then eventually I got my second cancer diagnosis at 24 and you know that was my wake-up call. That was when I

needed to figure out like you know I was an athlete I was a swimmer I was an investment banker my life was going well but I had cancer and I realized the diet and exercise paradigm is old news the environment's changed we're in the lowest solar exposure in human history

we're in the highest indoor living, artificial light, artificial EMF exposure in all of human history. And that was how I discovered that there was a lot more to health. And I chased that thread down the rabbit hole. It led me all around the world, led me to change my career from banking to health to become a biophysics specialist and realized that out of all of the areas of health, be that biochemistry, biology, neuroscience, all these areas, biophysics is the foundational prime.

Primary lever that governs the whole energetic and information flows and timing of the entire expression of human health. So I realized that's what I needed to share with the world. That's what I needed to bring to people's lives. And after working with over a thousand patients and seeing significant serious diseases that centralized medicine had given up on reverse, and then seeing, you know, professional athletes who have all the resources and the money in the world.

And seeing how these strategies also help them achieve incredible things. I knew that there was something here and I had to educate. And so that's my greatest passion now is coming and connecting with like-minded people and sharing with your folks some really beautiful things that they can action in their lives and hopefully be super helpful and practical for people.

Dave (04:00)
Fantastic. mean, I'd really love to start with what happened. mean, you got a diagnosis of cancer. Why did you start thinking about kind of other things beyond, I guess, traditional treatments? What was the kind of genesis of that?

Nathan Siles (04:21)
The interesting part was I because I was eating organic, I was eat I was going at to my local butcher, I was eating, you know, organic grass-fed meat, grass finished

I was having the occasional bit of fish and seafood here and there, but a lot of it was local organic vegetables, you know, seasonal meats, things like that. And I was a swimmer. I was a state swimmer for Victoria in Australia. So, you know, and I was playing soccer and performing really, really well. So my fitness, my heart health, you know, I could climb mountains, I could walk, you know, twenty-one kilometers in a day, easy up and down mountains. So my my fitness and my health and my nutrition seemed to be fine. And yet

Cancer developed, and I so I just started looking at where I went wrong. And believe it or not, the first place I looked at was there's a smart meter on the other side of my bedroom wall. There was overhead power lines outside the front of my bedroom. I had my phone always in my left pocket, and I had my wallet in my right, and I would just always have that. and I had left testicular cancer. and I I realized that I would go to sleep watching watching TV sometimes to help me fall asleep, and I'd have that blue light.

as well as the Wi-Fi on the whole night while I was sleeping. So a lot of the time I'd wake up at 2, 3 a.m. and the you know the the screen on standby mode would just be shining this blue light in my face. And I thought, okay, this has got to be something. There's got to be something there. So I dug that thread up and I found Dr. Jack Cruz, I found Dr. Alexander Wunsch, I found a lot of photobiologists, and they were saying that actual visible and invisible artificial light can impact your biology. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. Like

Light is a energy and information signal for the body, and we actually like we're solar panels walking around, and you know, we were supposed to have darkness at night for a reason. And I it was all brand new to me as a 24-year-old in the prime of my life. and so I just started. I bought a pair of blue-light blocking glasses, I unplugged my Wi-Fi, I shielded my entire bedroom, I did a building biology course, and I measured all these fields with $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 worth of equipment. and I realized I was in a

soup of radiation and I was getting signals from artificial sides of things at the wrong times of day, all the way throughout the night, pulsing my nervous system, not letting me actually regenerate and sleep. And then I started thinking, okay, what how do I improve my sleep? And the next thing that came up besides blocking all the artificial stuff was watch sunrise.

And that was such a powerful transformation for me because as soon as I started getting up at sunrise, and I I write this in my book, I I the number of sunrises I saw up until I was 24 was about three or four. And they're because I stayed up all night and did an all-nighter.

So I'd never really watched a sunrise ever properly after a night's sleep. And I started doing that, and it was such a game changer. Setting my superchismatic nucleus, setting the timing of my biology, and then eating within the first hour. And I got those tips reinforced by the leptin-melanocortin system that Dr. Jack Cruz impregnated into my head. He's like, this is the most important system. It controls all of your nervous system, all your hormones, all your sleep patterns.

all your growth and metabolism and I'm thinking there's got to be something here so I tried it and I started measuring my bloods. I tested my leptin I tested my vitamin D, I tested my HSCRP, which is an inflammatory marker, and testosterone as well. And all these markers after I started watching the sunrise and wearing my blue blockers at night started trending in the right direction for the first time. And I just couldn't believe that you know I'd I'd gone through such a centralized education of health and wellness and I thought I was doing

Doing everything right, and then I ended up with cancer. and then here I was re-evaluating everything. And I actually exercised less. I ate, I spent less time caring about my food, and I just ate one to two meals a day of you know, instead of eating juices, and I used to juice and I used to do all these things, soak my the the nuts and seeds and all the things. I stopped doing all that, and I just used nature-grounding, sunlight, floating in the ocean, doing cold thermogenesis, all these things, and my markets just kept going up and up.

and my skin glu glowed and my eyes turned from yellow to white and everything just started shining. So my hair grew back from the chemo so fast. So yeah.

Dave (08:49)
Yeah, you've

got a nice head of air there, unfortunately for

Nathan Siles (08:52)
Yeah.

Dave (08:53)
me. I've been sort of sunrise watching for the last year, but it hasn't grown back yet. So I live in hope. I live in hope. So, I mean,

Nathan Siles (09:02)
Anything's possible possible.

Dave (09:04)
that's amazing to me. I guess what's really interesting is, you know, obviously you had a condition. You listened to what was out there, but...

But I think, you know, what I love is the fact that you kind of took it further in terms of, you know, the practice, but also the science around it. So actually going out and kind of making sure that you'd done the blood work and things like that to provide the evidence. And I think, you know, the science side of things in this topic is so important, isn't it? Because, you know, what we don't want is for people to think this is a load of woo woo nonsense, do we?

You

Nathan Siles (09:47)
And

and as you know, Dave, the more you look into the literature and you see these the Swedish study on, you know, 250,000 people, or the Norwegian Norwegian study, or you see some of these all-cause mortality meta-analyses, the more sunlight you get, the lower your risk of all-cause mortality to a point, but most people are so far from that point that

it everyone benefits from this. I I remember there's there was a study, 2026 study, and they they did a whole analysis of a bunch of different ones and they came up with a a figure that said five point five kilojoules per meter squared was all you needed on a daily basis in order to lower your all cause mortality risk by twelve percent. Do you know that's six and a half seconds in midday sunlight with the UV B? That's it. I mean we're talking the most minimal amount

you could possibly do, but if you do it consistently, we're talking twelve percent reduction in every type of disease possible. So yeah, it's all there.

Dave (10:49)
But I mean,

is faster. mean, I've got one of I mean, talk about Victoria. I've got a sensor from Sean Kane based down in in Melbourne. He's come up with this light sensor. And this is absolutely fascinating in terms of sort of inside to outside and different times of day, just the amount of light that you kind of get. And, you know, the difference between actually looking using this in front of a

an incandescent bulb to an LED again is really, really interesting. you know, I mean, for me, the whole topic is deeply fascinating because of the, I guess that simple truth that evolution has had to deal with light since, you know, if life first started and, you know, the fact that we think that we are beyond

sort of light and the control of light as a species is frankly ludicrous, isn't it? You know, we've had billions of years of evolution and then, you know, the last 50 years inside or a hundred years inside and we think we've kind of beaten it and it's just like ludicrous, isn't it? you know, and I mean, listening to what Jack Cruz talks about and some of the other kind of medical practitioners around that sort of...

intricate relationship between, you know, our bodies, the cells in our bodies, the mitochondria and light. mean, it's just like incredible, isn't it? But I think,

Nathan Siles (12:22)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (12:23)
you know, at a very personal level, can be for a lot of people, it can be quite difficult to kind of listen to that and say, well, what does it mean and how does it relate? So, you know, what I love is what you've done, which is to kind of do it and

do some science around it and as I say, kind of back it up.

Nathan Siles (12:42)
And

and Dave, I I love to share the example because, you know, Dr. Jack Cruz, he taught me that you can't get well in the same environment in which you became sick doing what you did when you became sick. So for me, I didn't believe that at the start and I was living in a thirty-seventh latitude.

in Melbourne, Australia, and I decided to change my entire habit. So I became super tanned. I I all my friends were like, Where do you fake tan now? Like you bronzed like crazy.

Dave (13:11)
I'm

Nathan Siles (13:12)
and I measured all my blood markers and I I ha quit my job. I was six months over the whole s sort of summer period, spring, summer. and I measured everything and my vitamin D did not move in six months over the whole summer, and I got tanned. So I looked healthier.

I felt healthier, but the one marker that didn't move was my vitamin D. And I realized that it's more that goes into it than this, right? The challenge we have with urban cities is we have a destruction of your topology of your skin. So when you're in the presence of wireless radiation, and I had three cell towers within a kilometer of my house, and there was Wi-Fi from all the neighbors, and there was, you know, whatever, Starlink and all the things, this was destroying the cholesterol.

On my skin as well as dehydrating my skin so that I couldn't capture and use the light and convert it into the vitamin D. And then my inflammation levels, but also my kidney and liver function post the chemotherapy weren't at a level where they could convert that synthesized vitamin D into actual functional vitamin D very well. And so I was under this kind of you know inflammatory burden, but also poor synthesis. As soon as I moved to the 16th latitude.

I had to figure it out. I was there for a year in Melbourne and I could not move it up in any way. And I was, you know, beach bum, right? Then I moved to the 16th latitude. Within three months, my vitamin D doubled. I did nothing different to what I was doing in Melbourne. Same amount of time outside, same amount of time connected to nature, eating pretty much exactly the same thing, ketogenic most of the time. And there I was, my vitamin D doubled. And

The city I was living in had 3,000 people. So basically no Wi-Fi. The house I was in, I switched the power off at night. There was no power lines out the front. It was all under the ground on the other side of the road. So yes, power density of the sunlight was higher when I went to that area in the tropics. But the EMF wasn't destroying my topology, so I was able to collect the light better. And this is something that I think people it's worth measuring because people should understand you might be in

An environment where you can have access to this type of energy, but is your body actually capturing and utilizing it? And that's what I call the biological energy capture rate, which is something that everyone should focus on. So when I moved from Cairns to Mexico, where there's more magnetic flux, the magnetic field of the Earth has I think it's 75 nano Tesla instead of 43 in Cairns. So it's almost double. And because of that, I was able to collect even more photons at the 20th latitude and double my vibration.

Vitamin D again from Kent. So I went down in latitude, but my vitamin D doubled again. So there's legs of the stool that come in to utilize, allow your body to utilize and capture and store sunlight in your system. And there's lots of different variables, but the more natural the environment, the higher the magnetic flux, the ability to ground, the lower population density, the access to the ocean and the water, all those things come in to structure a system that's able to hold on to.

Dave (16:29)
I mean, that holistic thinking, I mean, again, makes a huge amount of sense. I mean, I guess for most people, though, you know, actually moving from one place to another isn't a practical thing. But, you know, it's really interesting what you're saying, because, you know, I've been calling it sunrise maxing, getting up and looking at the sunrise. Why not? It's a bit

Nathan Siles (16:55)
I love it.

Dave (16:55)
of a social media thing.

But Georg, who's the CEO of Shadow Maps, also been doing it, but he lives in Vienna. you know, what's been fascinating is for me, I'm sort of on the edge of a small village in sleepy Oxfordshire here in the UK. And it's easy for me to go and find sort of nice places for sunrise watching. He's found it a real struggle, you know, so and, know, it's actually one of the questions we spoke to Sean Kane this week, like...

ignoring everything else, is actually looking at the sunrise, you know, important compared to just being outside, you know, and getting the benefits from, you know, that's kind of fascinating that if you're in a city that not only do you have all these EMFs, but your chances of actually seeing a sunrise are dramatically reduced,

Nathan Siles (17:52)
Absolutely. And as you're aware, the landscape of the planet and the area where you're actually viewing the sunrise is really important. So if you're surrounded by green chlorophyll, grass and trees, I just had my spectrometer this morning as I was watching sunrise, I was just pointing it in all directions. And you can see the infrared just getting thrown back at you when you look at a green landscape. Whereas when you have concrete, asphalt, glass, and buildings and things like that, you're getting a lot of the shorter wavelength, blue and ultraviolet.

Sort of thrown back at you. And in the morning time, there's a lot more of that blue. So you can become blue light toxic by viewing a sunrise in an urban landscape, which is kind of wild to think about, but it's not nature. We've we've modified nature to make it so it's like that. The other thing is when you're around rocks and stones, especially these types of volcanic rocks or quartz or limestones or things like that, they're throwing back huge amounts of infrared as well. So if you have a space in your

garden in your front yard, backyard, in your park, wherever it is close to you, and you have green rich chlorophyll around you, or you have any cobblestones or stone, you know, hedge stone retaining walls or anything like that, they're areas that you're gonna, if you expose more of your skin to, or even even not, because the infrared goes through, but the more skin you can expose, I always say the better. That will be throwing more of that solar radiation, the good regenerative longer wavelengths back into your system.

So you've got to think about the the optics as well. So face east, but allow the rest of your body and all the surface area to capture as well.

Dave (19:31)
It's interesting. Yeah, I I was very glad actually when I spoke to Bob Fosbring and Glenn Jeffery and they said actually does go through your clothes because the thought of me on a field in Oxfordshire with my shirt off at five in the morning I'd get arrested I think.

Nathan Siles (19:51)
Well there's

actually there's actually tan through clothing. you can buy some of the tan through clothing looks a little bit, you know, fetch, a bit strange, but

Dave (20:00)
Okay, interesting, never heard of that before.

Nathan Siles (20:03)
yeah, there's a company out of the UK, your your area, called Kaniki, K-I-N-I-K-I, and they do tan through shorts, swimwear, shirts, women's

Dave (20:14)
Come on, have a look.

Nathan Siles (20:14)
bikinis, all of it. So

They're really good. I I've got a couple pairs of the most neutral style I could get and and yeah, that I wear them in the sun all the time. So

Dave (20:25)
That's interesting.

have I'll definitely have a look at that. yeah, mean, one, I mean, observationally for me, because I think what's what's been interesting is, you know, since I've been doing this, I haven't actually got ill. And normally I'll pick up colds and flu and, you know.

I mean, I have occasions where I feel like I might be getting sick and then it sort of disappears. So that's been kind of interesting. The other thing is, is, you know, I've actually really got a kind of good colour as well. So, you know, I've been really fascinated by, I guess, the mainstream media. There's a lot of talk about kids on social media saying ditch the sun sunscreen and

parents getting really concerned about that. And then you kind of look at what these kids are doing is they're literally getting up, you know, 10 in the morning, getting straight outside and not putting sun cream on. So you can, I can absolutely sympathise with the parents, whereas, you know, if they were actually getting up at four in the morning and watching the sunrise, their skin would be much better prepared for that sun later in the day, wouldn't it?

Nathan Siles (21:42)
So this is the magic of sunlight. It

It allows the atmosphere allows longer wavelengths through first and then the shorter wavelengths. And every little nanometer, every minute that that sun is elevating in the sky, it's a preparatory signal for the biology to know what's coming next. We've had millennia and centuries and really long times of biology being able to adapt to this exact same inclination and declination, especially when people stayed in basically the same environment for many, many generations.

So the biology knows what to expect. So when you don't allow it to expect what it is designed to expect, it won't be prepared. And so it's like, you know, going and you know, eating the Coney Island hot dog eating contest, you know, and training for that all year, and then, you know, suddenly trying to do a fast or suddenly trying to, you know, go and do do a 10-minute mile. You know, it's like gonna be so difficult to train your body to shift gears to something totally different.

What you've been doing. So that's exactly right, Dave. The most important part is to attune your body and realize that the sun is coming up like a symphony, like orchestra, you know, attuning their instruments before that sun hits the horizon. And then suddenly the symphony starts and the biology starts rearranging and moving things. And just like leaves and and flowers start phototroposphere, they start moving towards the sun. Our biology actually on a micro scale starts moving its little solar panels.

and its photoreceptive pigments in the direction that the sun's at. And it starts to then eventually organize and structure biology underneath to prepare for, you know, the compound pharmacy, which is what I call the hypothalamus and pituitary, to turn on to start secreting all of the beautiful signaling peptides, exosomes, hormones, stem cells, all the things that it needs to prepare the rest of the body for later in that day. So when you wake up and you feel like you need a coffee, well just go outside and then your body will organize itself.

So that's the, you know, sunrise to ten A. bit that most of these young guys are are missing.

Dave (23:50)
But it's fascinating because,

know, again, I've been watching my dogs like they're there because we had a really lovely summer so far here in the UK and I've been watching my dogs. They straight morning sun straight outside, you know, as soon as they possibly can. Lying in the grass under, you know, and then as it gets hotter, you see them moving under bushes. And I think

You know, the reality is, is what you're not saying is go and spend all day outside in the sun. There's a this is about, you know, actually listen to what your body says in terms of what you should be doing. you know, we all know if we're in the sun and it's the midday sun for more than a few minutes, you begin to feel like you need to leave, don't you? So, you know, getting under a bush or a tree.

you get huge relief from that, don't you? again, sort of this is about kind of really listening to yourself and the biology and thinking this stuff through. Like, you know, we all see programs with lions in the savanna of Africa sitting under trees in the midday sun. know, so this is it's kind of like they're all there, not in black and white and glorious technicolor, isn't it? In terms of the things that we should be doing.

Nathan Siles (25:14)
It's it's all there and it's been in front of us for a long time. And as you said earlier in the conversation, we think that we've moved beyond light. We don't need that anymore. We can move into the multiplanetary space system and go and colonize Mars and

you know, live in AI simulations and it's just, you know, there's one sect of society that will be moving towards that and they'll be trying to create artificial suns, artificial magnetic fields, you know, artificial grounding, you know, synthesized water that's perfect with all the minerals and vitamins you need for your biology, food in a pill, and that's one layer of reality with medbeds and all the things. And then you've got the the real humans that don't have a really difficult acclamation to

Make which along the way to get to that, you'll follow through diseases, you'll follow lots of different problems to try and get to that reality. But over here, you have the real humans who are eating and drinking in a local seasonal wild pasture-raised environment, spending time in nature in the sun for periods of time and in the shade for periods of time, sleeping in absolute darkness, connected to the earth, speaking to like-minded people. I mean, it's obvious. The stuff that that's clear and feels good is very obvious. but it's not easy to do.

Modern world when you live in a five million person city in a high-dense apartment where you have your neighbor's Wi-Fi that you can't control. You know, how do we help those people? And the way I like to say it is just bring a bit of nature back into your day, however, you can do it. Open a window, step onto your balcony, go outside and touch the earth in the morning, go and eat your breakfast out in a park or in the yard in the yard, or take your lunch break from your office job, take that you know, a five

Five

minute break when people go out and take a smoke break or a coffee break, you just go outside and roll up your sleeves and get a bit of sun on your forearms. Any of these little I said, lower your chronic disease burden by 12%, all cause mortality. You need six seconds of sunlight per day. So that's six seconds of you walking from the one building to the next building. If you're, you know, outside, roll up your sleeves. You know, get that space. Ideally it's not too much concrete around, ideally it's green, and otherwise

you're exposing yourself to blue light, but maybe a different situation. Maybe just anytime you walk past a set of trees or hedges or bushes, roll up your sleeve. That six seconds of that infrared reflecting off that is gonna change the game for you. So that's that's my little two cents for people who think they can't move, they can't change their environment, they don't all they don't have the luxury of you know going to the beach or you know doing these types of things. Just you know make little changes where you can.

Dave (27:57)
I think it's really good advice is basically just get outside. know, I think it's one of the oddities of this whole topic is, you know, it's almost the fact that could, the potential to make money is not massive, shall we say, in terms of the advice around it, almost means that people don't believe it, you know. So, I mean, we live in this weird world, don't we?

You know, you can spend thousands on a red light panel and actually, as you say, just wandering outside for just during the day at some point is going to give you what you need in terms of in terms of that infrared. So, you know, it's kind of crazy, isn't it? Like it's such basic, simple stuff that we almost don't believe the basic simplicity of it.

Nathan Siles (28:47)
It it is and I I I think it I really need to impress the point. People go in this modern world they say, Well, nature's not enough. I've heard people say that. it's just

Dave (28:55)
Really?

Nathan Siles (28:56)
it's not powerful enough. It's like, you know, blah blah blah, we're too chemically poisoned. It's not I need I need something more. I need stem cells. I need peptides. I need a panel. I need to turbocharge my cells with PMF or voltage. There's not enough touching the earth. I don't feel an electric shock when I touch the earth with my bare feet. I need to feel a a machine pulse.

Me or a hyperbaric oxygen chamber pumping oxygen into my cells, like breathing oxygen next to a pine tree with the highest surface area leaf emitting huge amounts of oxygen is not enough because it's only 21%. I've heard people say this and I'm here to tell you, it is more than enough. It is so much more than enough. You just have to be there to capture it.

Dave (29:40)
I'm laughing because I saw someone sent me some, some I don't even I can't even remember what it was called, but it was $150,000 of red light sunbed, which vibrates and, you know, does some sound stuff. And I was like, bloody hell, someone

Nathan Siles (29:54)
Be able. Yeah.

Dave (29:57)
wants to pay me $150,000. I'll go and rock their sunbed outside and blow a trumpet in their ear. You know, it's

It's quite incredible, the quackery which sort of is coming out around all of this stuff. So, I mean, I guess this is why this is really important, you know, because again, I listen to, you know, what people like Jack Crease have to say in there. I mean, there's a...

a few others out there and there's a real purity in terms of their story, I guess that...

The story is just a simple one,

Nathan Siles (30:36)
And you know what, Dave, the other thing that I think that maybe on the edge of people's awareness is the longitudinal compression waves, the plasma, the ether, you know, these scalar fields,

You know, this this type of sort of technology that's coming out, but it's always been there in nature, is kind of on the fringe and out of all of the complexity that is there in the orbital angular momentum of a spinning photon of 780 nanometers, highly transparent through the a atmosphere, that hits your mitochondrial cytochrome C oxidase and has a particular reaction to generate more water and energy and do some great things to structure water and all those things, that also may come with neutrinos. It may come with

with plasma fields, it may come with all these other things, these scalar fields, but you don't need to know that.

You don't really need to dig into these, you know, neutrino generators or all this stuff going on in CERN or combine like creating dark matter and all for most 99% of people, none of that is relevant. Spend time outside. Nothing will replace the sun. Nothing will replace grounding to the earth. Nothing will replace walking through a green space. everything else is an approximation to that. And it's a marketing campaign. And I'm not saying some of these things are bad. I'm saying that yes, we need to

Go to offices, we need to spend time with our niece and nephew playing around indoors sometimes on Christmas, or then guess what? Have some of the bulbs put in that are actually good healthy bulbs. Unplug your Wi-Fi. You know, use fiber optic cabling to plug into your phone so you can use your phone on aeroplane mode. So I always use my phone on airplane mode, just plug in a fiber optic cable. I I haven't taken my phone off airplane mode for probably three or four days. So that

Dave (32:18)
Wow.

Nathan Siles (32:20)
there's simple things that people can do to live a modern life, but

But

also have the foundational principles of nature is enough, be out there to collect it, but be smart enough to navigate reality with the right solutions.

Dave (32:34)
Fantastic. mean, you talked about experience with people who you've kind of consulted with. Are you sort of able to share some of the stories around those people as well and what you you did with them? You know, the advice you gave them as well.

Nathan Siles (32:52)
Yeah, absolutely. So

one of the examples I like giving a young man 26 years old. He was diagnosed with testicular cancer, and I got introduced to him through a mutual friend, a referral, and he was a little bit skeptical of the centralized system. he was based at the 34th latitude in Australia, and quite a dense city called Adelaide. And you know, he was in a position where he'd followed, you know, naturopaths and homeopaths and other people giving him supplements and herbs and all these types of things. So he had the diagnosis.

Got into fear, realized he didn't want to do centralized, started doing nutrition and naturopathy and things like that. Things was inflammation was still there, things weren't really moving. Called me, I told him to move to the 24th latitude on the beach in a small little 8,000-person town. I set him up with as many things as I possibly could to help make sure that he felt safe, he felt nurtured, he felt like he was supported. So he went there and we basically I governed.

His entire life for three months, and then he was sort of a bit half-half for six months. and but the first three months was you know, we were eating sardines and oysters for breakfast and raw liver. We were watching every single sunrise. He would, I would tell him he could not get out of the ocean until he'd floated for two hours in the ocean every single day. he was wearing the tan-through clothes, he was stopping eating by 3 p.m. every day, and he would eat within the first hour of sunrise.

We'd actually be at the beach 40 minutes before sunrise every single day. Found a property for him that was completely EMF free. We ran a circuit from the outside power, which was a separate power circuit, to the refrigerator. Otherwise, the whole power for the whole house was off all the time. So he was living in a wood log cabin. And literally three months we started doing all the blood tests, and I measured five of his key cancer markers. They were all flat zeros after three months. So this was amazing.

And then we did the six month. I said, just hang around for another three months, let's solidify this. So he got a bit more laxed. He started going doing yoga, he went to the gym, he started, you know, having a couple snacks here and there, like doing what he was normally doing back home. And then he got a scan at six months, and the oncologist said, we made a mistake with the first one. You never had cancer. And he goes, No, I got it double checked by a different hospital. He brought that one to this hospital, and they said, yeah, I don't know, we can't explain it. but there

Was definitely a gigantic tumor there, and we wanted to push you into surgery and chemo, and now there's it's completely clear, there's no margins, it's absolutely healed. You it's as if it just was never there. So, you know, this was something that was, you know, I'm I'm not gonna say that he, you know, that anything I did cured cancer. No, I'm just gonna say that he was able to put himself in an environment and create a lifestyle that was able to reverse whatever type of damage he was having, and this is a

a real testimony to the first cancer patient stage four that I it was metastasizing to that I was able to you know provide information to that he fully reversed and six years later seven years later now he's is still perfectly healthy and he lives back in that same environment in Adelaide 34 latitude he just changed kind of what he did so all he had to do was dig himself out of the hole and then bring those new principles back to where he was living and he's better. So hopefully that's a sign of hope for people that

That if you've got an autoimmune condition or you've got something that's not as bad as cancer from a metabolic standpoint, from a mitochondrial standpoint, it may only take you three to six months doing something really optimal at a 24th latitude to then be able to reverse it and create really good habits and new neural wiring and then come back to the environment that you were living in, but do it differently that time and remain healthy. Now he was young, he was twenty-six, so some people that I've worked with, like another example is

I had a Parkinson's patient and this guy was 72 years old. He had to resign from his job as CEO of his company. It was a $50 billion company. And he came down to Mexico and we were working with him for probably about two, three months. And he couldn't walk. I'm talking like full rigid, like his muscles did not work. His eyes could move, but he was, you know, he had carers and all the things. And within two weeks, he was pacing up.

And down the beach within four weeks, he got off the floaties in the water, and he's able to float by himself without drowning. And then we we did the same things, same protocols, sunlight grounding, cold thermogenesis. We have to be careful with neurological conditions with too cold thermogenesis. We did him 65 degrees Fahrenheit, maybe 17-18 Celsius. We started around there and stayed there. that increases the amount of biophoton release to stimulate dopamine production in the brain. So we did a bunch of

different things there, mitigated all the EMFs, he put on my blue blockers from Biospectral. And you know, within six months, once again he was able to go back to the US, take back the position of his company, able to go and play squash and pickleball again and you know reversal. So

Dave (38:09)
Wow.

Nathan Siles (38:10)
there's there's so many more. There's autistic kids, there's type one diabetics that I've got completely off insulin. There's there's endless stories of autoimmune conditions, multiple sclerosis, so many. So

Dave (38:23)
I'm keen to just sort of tap into this whole thing of, you know, it's almost like you have an intervention at a certain latitude in a certain place, but then you can go back as long as you take principles with you to where you were before. What do you think is going on there? Because that's sort of new to me.

Nathan Siles (38:46)
to be honest, I think

Once you rewire your brain and your system to back to where it was designed to be, I think there's some type of an ultradian, infradian, circadian memory that happens inside the system. and I think that once you lower your heteroplasmy rate in your mitochondria, then that gets to a certain point. Let's say it it usually it hits 60%. So okay, so for the listeners who don't know, mitochondrial heteroplasmy means heterogeneous mitochondria within the same cytoplasm or cytosol.

Meaning the DNA mutations of a particular energy generating unit inside your body has certain levels of inefficiencies. And there's different types in every cell. So when 60% of your engines in your cell are mutated, then you start to create disease, roughly. This is what Doug Wallace says. Okay, so once we hit that point, then disease takes over, the system starts to not communicate properly, things break down, energy leaks out of the body.

And you start to get compensation pathways and mechanisms through the body. Mental illness can come in, create a landslide, and all the things. So all we have to do is flip that mutation rate of your engines inside your mitochondria back down to below 60%, ideally down to 20, 30%, something like that. And then now you're back in a nice rhythm. And you don't, when you're healthy, you don't need a huge amount of energy input in order to keep the system running. So the

Healthier you get, the less food you need to eat, the less sunlight you need to get, the less EMF you need to avoid. All these things. This is the reward for being healthy. But then when you're close to that 60% heteroplasmy rate, now you're starting to realize that you can't get away with the things you you did when you were 18. Right?

Dave (40:35)
Right, all right, okay that makes sense.

Nathan Siles (40:38)
So that's where taking habits with you and being able to continue that wiring of

Dave (40:43)
Okay.

Nathan Siles (40:43)
your brain allows you to then utilize in the same environment when you had a 60% heteroplasmia, now you got a 20, now you can use it. So just don't get poisoned again, you know?

Dave (40:56)
Very, very interesting. I'm also really interested in, just because it's another passion of mine, is swimming. So, you know, here's something quite interesting is I'm trying this high-low band, which, because I have a high blood pressure and I think had it most of my life and, you know, it's quite difficult to control.

But, know, so this band and one of my problems is white coat syndrome. So it's very difficult to take my blood pressure without it skyrocketing. So this is quite interesting bit of technology. But one of the things I have noticed that the the time when I get the biggest drop in my blood pressure is after I've been swimming in a lake and or the sea. And, you know, it's really it's so significant the difference that that makes that I

practically think I should go and live in a lake, basically. So, I mean, it's

Nathan Siles (41:57)
Yeah.

Dave (41:59)
it's really amazing. And, you know, I've just come back from sailing in Greece. I went around the Ionian Sea, which was just magnificent. But also the swimming was just unbelievable because a very high concentrations of salt in the water. just come out feeling absolutely.

alive to be honest with you. So I was kind of interested in your perspective on the water and its importance to what you're talking about.

Nathan Siles (42:30)
It's so important and it's something that a lot of people don't have access to in the modern world because waterways are so polluted.

And there's very difficult to get, you know, in any body of water that doesn't have chlorine or fluoride or PFAS or hormones or whatever in it. you know, the ocean, magic. you know, the Dead Sea, which I've been lucky enough to go to as well, magic. now the biggest thing from this is in the in the modern world, is that water is a natural Faraday cage. So anytime you're floating in there, any of the fields from Starlink

from radar, from satellite, from the fire department, from 4G, 5G, Bluetooth, anything else, none of that touches any of the tissues that's submerged in the water. So if I've there's been a number of times where I've been at people's houses, they don't turn the Wi-Fi off. I ask them to, they don't. They've all got their 50 pulsing devices around the house with Alexa and everything else, Starlink on the roof. I just say, hey, can I jump in the pool? And I get in the pool. And I'm just in the pool and I feel so much better. So

It's a microcosm of what you can do with your biology. Have a magnesium bath in your bathtub if you're feeling EMF toxic, if you're feeling like that. Have go have a foot bath, go and plunge in the pool, go and do a cold plunge, whatever it is, a body of water is exceptional. If you have access to a beach or a river or a stream that's clean, go and go there. the second part of this is we capture photons, so photons of light with electrons. Electrons

Are these energetic electric fields that are part of pretty much every atom in in in the world. And these electrons and electric fields suck in the photons and hold and transduce that photonic energy into energy molecules and information. And the more electrons you have on your eyes, your skin, your gut, and your lungs, the more light you'll be able to capture. And also the more sound and the more frequency from nature.

all those things. So when you jump into a body of water that has salt in it especially, it's like a gigantic electron sink that you are bathing in and you are capturing and energizing the electric field of your topology. And so you notice you can even put little electrodes and measure the body voltage of someone who's just been floating in salt water to compare to someone who's not. And you can see the actual voltage potentials increased in the person in that.

Now we we know that because if you're gonna electrocute someone, you'd want to throw an electric device plugged into a salt water rather than regular water. You'd you'd definitely electrocute them more with that. So we know electricity and electric fields move through this salt water much better, which is why when we migrated out of the oceans, we took the ocean with us in our blood. That's why our blood is salty. So we can move charge through our bodies. So we brought that with us, that intelligence. So you're adding electricity.

Electrons to your system, you're putting yourself in a Faraday cage, and you become you increase your biological energy capture rate as a result of being in that space. Now, the other thing you're doing is you're cooling your surfaces. Now, your ancestors fought so many incredible natural things in the past in order to bring you here today, and they endured unbelievable amounts of cold showers, cold storms, cold winters, and all these different things to be able to allow your microcontrollers.

To then adapt to that to when they get cold, they release huge amounts of infrared light internally, these biophotons. So when you're going in that cold water, you're actually increasing the semiconductor charge potential inside all of your semiconductors. That's your collagen, that's your fascia, that's all of the blood plasma, that's albumin, that's so many things. And all these things are increasing the electric charge, and in the especially in the mitochondria.

releasing huge amounts of infrared light internally. So you're having all that happen at the same time and probably ten other things that we don't even know yet. But all those are stacking on and that's leading to you feeling amazing.

Dave (46:49)
That's so, so, so

interesting. I mean, the whole topic, mean, it's this sort of just fascinating all of these connections. was chatting to someone the other day. We all know this, though, because like why you go to any beach like, you know, in Greece, went to a few beaches and they were packed.

like any beach on a nice sunny day is packed with people. Why do we go to the beach? you know, it's not like, you know, there's a rule written into all our constitutions in the countries we live that if it's sunny, need to get something's telling us that that's a good place to go. You know, I live by the river here. So sunny day. People are down by the river, you know, and it's sort of it's there in us. All of this stuff, isn't it? You know,

Nathan Siles (47:45)
It is.

It's there from when we were floating in mom's amniotic fluid. That water is our primal bath. It is our baptism. It is our reuniting with the mama, the grounded energy of the earth. It's truly magnificent. And to deprive people of that, I remember when I was in Mexico, I was living there during COVID and they closed all the beaches, so I just became a turtle inspector and I was able to still go to the beach and watch sunrise. You know, I put my little turtle inspector shirt on and I I got the free pass through security.

So do what you can to get there 'cause it's it's a privilege.

Dave (48:20)
Amazing. So

that was one, I guess, we're up against it from a time perspective. I was kind of interested in the whole latitude and places thing. So, you know, for example, I don't know what latitude I'm on here in the UK, but if I came to you and I said, look, you know, I've got a cancer diagnosis. What do you do in terms of determining sort of places to think about going to?

Nathan Siles (48:48)
Yeah, you're at the fifty first latitude. and unless you're in the top, Newcastle is fifty second. Beautiful.

Dave (48:54)
No, no, no, no, I'm right, I'm down south, so...

Nathan Siles (48:58)
Well, you're at the 51st latitude and I've worked with a lot of patients from there. I get them down to the Canary Islands, I get them down to Malta, especially in the winter time, or I get them down to Mexico. They're the three sort of destinations. right now there's a magnetic excursion on the planet. The South Atlantic anomaly has started to crack in half, which is between Brazil and South Africa, in that ocean there. And that's actually lowering the magnetic field of the Earth by about 10%

Over the last 20 years. So magnetism in quantum mechanics and biophysics was always a constant. So it was something that we always assumed was round about 50 nano Tesla everywhere on the planet, and now it's not. Now it's different in different places. So remember, I said when I moved from Cannes, the tropics 16 latitude in Australia to the 20th latitude in Mexico, and I said I doubled my vitamin D and my testosterone also doubled, believe it or not. And the magnetism played a

Big role in that. So the dimensions that I like to think of are light water and magnetism being the three keys that we try to find on planet Earth to optimize life. So the good thing about the Canary Islands is the magnetics are okay. The latitude is around 28 latitudes, so you you're almost in the tropics, you're subtropics. And the water is not too bad as well. So, and you can also import your water from Iceland very easily or from Norway very easily from there. So you

So

you got really good water. The further from the equator, the better the water quality, the lower the deuterium, right?

And so unless it's around volcanic areas. If it's around volcanic areas like in El Salvador, Costa Rica, you know, these types of areas, you've got really good water, really good magnetism, and really good light. And so I'll get to that. But places like you know, like I said, Malta and and Iceland has incredible magnetism, incredible water, terrible sunlight. So

Dave (50:55)
Yeah.

Nathan Siles (50:56)
if you've got a cancer issue, which is more of a light issue than it is pretty much anything else, then I would go more towards the

equator. If it's an autoimmune condition, same thing. Closer to the equator the better. So that's multiple sclerosis, type 1 diabetes, Hoshimoto's, glaucoma, rheumatoid arthritis, any of these types of conditions, right? If you've got something that's a little bit more like potentially an epithelial cancer, like a melanoma, something like that, magnetism is going to be a huge one for you. So you know there's there's also other magnetic ones like adrenal fatigue is generally a magnetism one as well as a circadian one. So

Places where there's good volcanic activity. So Mexico's really good because it has the cenote. That's a beautiful magnetic area. Cenote are these sinkholes that have this beautiful magnetic flux cycling and pressurizing from the artesian 65 million year old water. So that's creating this beautiful magnetic flux in that area. In El Salvador and in Costa Rica, you and even Ecuador, you have these volcanoes, this whole Pacific rim, part of the plate, and that's allowing the magma to

To

move up and move charge and electric and magnetic fields close to the surface of the earth. So you're also getting incredible magnetic flux there. And all you can see that in the water quality, you can see that in the plants, the animals, and the humans. So yeah, it it it it's it's different for everyone. but the UK is if you've got a chronic disease and you're in the UK, it's gonna be very difficult for you to dig yourself out without taking a trip over the winter time to begin with. Three months or two months.

Over the winter, make your way down to that. From what I've tested so far, El Salvador and Costa Rica seem to be probably the best in the world. Mexico is close second and third. Bali is actually really good for people in Asia or Australia. It's a ninth latitude, great magnetic flux. Taiwan is not too bad. Iceland has incredible magnetic flux, like I said, and good water. Malta's pretty decent for Europeans. So is the Canary Islands.

Islands. But anywhere in South America, on that Brazil, Argentina, they're getting their magnetic fields like below 25 nano Tesla. It's very weak, and we're starting to see fertility issues, you know, lots of health, health issues coming out of those areas. Same as the East Coast, the West Coast of Africa, Nigeria, all those areas, South Africa, they're starting to magnetically decline. So they're losing their advantage of what they had with the amount of sunlight.

that they've got by not being able to prime a system to be able to capture and hold on to that sunlight. So there's a few extra variables in there. So latitude's important, but consider the magnetic and water components as well.

Dave (53:50)
Fascinating, it's fascinating. So it's really, I mean, again, I think to me it makes a lot of sense. I mean, having chatted to Bob Fosbury fairly recently, he talked about, you know, the more he's got into the subject, the more he realised that, you know, the concept of Goldilocks zone for planet Earth isn't just about sort of distance from the sun.

things like magnetism, there's gravity, there's all these other factors which have led to life flourishing. So what you're saying, I think, kind of speaks to that. mean, by the way, his view on if you want to go to Mars, just forget it basically because...

Nathan Siles (54:37)
Yeah.

I mean we got a beautiful flag yeah. Why are we

Dave (54:41)
Sorry,

Elon, but you know, you're going to have a bunch of carcasses in your starship by the time you get there. yeah, it's a fascinating topic. I'm sort of.

Nathan Siles (54:53)
Dave, I before

before you ask your last question, I wanna I just wanna add one bit of context there.

We talked about nature there and reading nature. The other thing that people need to be aware of is the altitude at which you are at. So when you're at a very high latitude, so let's say you're in northern Canada, you're at fifty first latitude in the UK, if you go to the top of a mountain, there's not too many mountains in the UK, but if you go

Dave (55:16)
Nice.

Nathan Siles (55:17)
to the top of let's say, I don't know, the Alps in in Europe or wherever, right? If you go above one thousand five hundred meters above sea level, you can now have access to UV light all year round. So

There's altitude that people need to consider. Now, I'm not telling people that living at altitude is the best because you have to turn on hypoxia inducible factors and modify your DNA a bit to conserve oxygen, and it there's kind of trade offs for that. There's weaker magnetic flux generally the further you get from the Earth's core. So there's things, but if you have a vitamin, if you have a cancer, you know, then going to an altitude could actually help. you know, and then there's the man made stuff, right? So there's you know, chemtrails or whatever.

Creating more cloud cover, less sunny days, there's you know, there's obviously pesticides and chemicals in foods and on the land, and then there's population density, which is adding all of our modern gadgets into. So be aware that those things, even if you're in an amazing place, let's say you move from the UK for two months to El Salvador, you go and live live out there. If you're not living with nature, you're making a mistake because that's what you're there to do. So go outside, but if you

Got you're in an apartment building, you're right in one of the major cities, and you have all this EMF around you, it there's no point, you're not gonna heal. You may as well still back in the UK and live on a farm. So it there's context to all of it. So look at the natural, optimize that, figure out the man-made and optimize that, and then you've got your Goldilocks zone.

Dave (56:49)
Fantastic. Fantastic. No, it's really interesting. yeah. So, I mean, I was just going to ask about you mentioned a book. Can you tell us a bit about the book?

Nathan Siles (56:58)
Yeah, the book I wrote is called Biotra, B-I-O-T-R-A, which is transforming your life. And I wrote it with two beautiful co-authors, Nick Dawr and Ryan Baracloff. Nick Dawr's a chiropractor and Ryan's a psychotherapist, and I'm the biophysicist. So we kind of desired decided to c create a total health protocol that was really useful and practical for people. so I talk a little bit about my journey in there, but I share all the foundational biophysics principles of light, water, cold, full spectrum, EMF, all the things. And then there's like a

Bioharmonizing chapter towards the end that how to bring this into your life. And then Nick brings in a lot of the evolutionary biomechanics and neuroimmunology and the fascia and the pressure systems in the body and the fluid and air systems in the body and how that all works. And then Ryan obviously brings in the embodiment, the awareness, the being instead of doing, the peacefulness, the nervous system regulation, mental mindsets, all these things. And so we combine those biophysics, biomechanics, and psycho-spiritual.

Into a particular total health practice, which takes 30 minutes, and that's all you have to do. You've got three pieces of equipment that you need, low resource, you can take it anywhere in the world with you. We run retreats, we build courses. Our next retreat's in Mexico and Tulum, October 27th to November 1st. And the book is about 500 pages. It's an encyclopedia, I would call it. 80 pages of pictures and 100 pages of references, but it's a beautiful read and it's something you could pick up and read.

Read

again and again and still find wisdom. Dr. Gerald Pollock and Paul Check endorse the book. They've written the forwards to the book. So Gerald Pollock's the water scientist, and obviously Paul Check runs Spirit Gym. So these guys are two big Goliaths in the field, the the shoulders we stand upon, you know, paying reverence to some of the geniuses that were here before us, fueling this movement that we can hopefully carry forward. So I encourage you to go to biotrial.com.au.

and get yourself a copy.

Dave (59:00)
Fantastic. Fantastic. No, I certainly will. I listened to a podcast with Jerro Pollock. It's a very I mean, it was so interesting to me because it was all about water. Yeah, no, it's

Nathan Siles (59:13)
Yeah, he's the best.

Dave (59:15)
very, it's very profound. I found it very moving. I've just done this incredible swim in Finland and was so like the most natural place you can imagine, a river.

which hadn't been touched by humanity. know, so I had this moment in the water where I was like, oh my gosh, I'm very connected to the water. And then sort of a few weeks later was listening to his podcast with him talking about.

Easy Water and it was like, it all made sense to me, you know, so brilliant. Well, listen, I look forward to getting your book. And it's been a really wonderful conversation. So thank you. we'll try in the show notes. We'll just put some links to the book and also the the the the what did you say workshop in?

Nathan Siles (1:00:13)
Yeah, yeah,

it's a it's an immersion, a six day immersion where we'll we'll teach you how to bring this into your life. So it's

Dave (1:00:20)
Interloom.

Nathan Siles (1:00:21)
into loom. Yep.

Dave (1:00:22)
Amazing. Okay, fantastic. Well thank you so much.

Nathan Siles (1:00:26)
Thanks, Dave. I appreciate you.