Men with TJ Jourian

What if masculinity isn’t innate—but taught? And what happens when we start to unlearn it?

In this episode, we sit down with TJ—a queer, trans, Middle Eastern-Armenian man and recovering academic—to explore how masculinity is shaped by culture, race, faith, and family. From drag king stages to circles of men of color who welcomed him without question, TJ shares how rare affirmations helped him understand his identity.

We trace these moments to broader systems: patriarchy as a colonial export, whiteness as the default for “acceptable” masculinity, and media narratives that shame Black culture while excusing white-coded genres. Our conversation spans Vermont, Chicago, and India’s vibrant streets, where trans women offer blessings and male friendships include hand-holding without stigma.

We wrestle with anger, pacifism, and fatherhood’s quiet fears. TJ reflects on why rejecting the label “man” once felt safer—and how embracing it became a way to challenge the link between masculinity and violence. We also talk faith: a Quaker lens that centers human light, and an atheist ethic that grounds goodness without divine reward.

This isn’t a checklist for being a man—it’s a practice. Affirm without policing. Unlearn whiteness as the norm. Make space for male intimacy beyond sex or aggression. Honor trans wisdom that expands the path for all.

If masculinity is taught, it can be retaught—toward care, consent, and connection.

🎧 Subscribe, share with someone who’ll push the conversation, and leave a review with one thing you’re unlearning about manhood. What part of the script would you rewrite?

Transcript

Setting The Question: What Makes Us Men?

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to What Makes Us. This is a podcast exploring and how we develop as people through our experiences and connections between individuals, with groups, and amongst society. We'll be bringing on guests to discuss how they've come to be who they are. And along the way, we may end up learning something about ourselves. So please sit back and enjoy your listening to What Makes Us. Welcome to What Makes Us. Uh, today we have an amazing guest with us, a good friend of mine, uh, old school best friend, TJ. And he is gonna be here to talk to us about what makes us men. We we had this debate just just now, two seconds ago before we started this podcast, um, where are we gonna go with this? And I'm really excited for this conversation because um there is so much to unpack with uh with this topic of what makes us men. Uh so uh without further ado, my good friend here, TJ. TJ, please introduce yourself and uh what what brought this topic on and that we're talking about today?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Awesome. Thanks, uh, thanks, Brian. Thanks for inviting me to join you on this conversation. Um, so my name's TJ. I use he him as pronouns. Um I'm a recovering academic. I'm a consultant and a trainer and coach. Um one day I'll be brave enough to actually say writer on this list as well. I'm a Middle Eastern, Armenian, queer, and trans person, twice over immigrants, blend in more than I want to in a single cat dad. Um I find meaning in working with uh change makers who are sort of reclaiming their time and their energy. Um and I live on the unceded lands of the Lenilenape people, uh, which is currently known as Philadelphia. Whenever I can, um I'm a traveler. Uh, but we're gonna manifest more of that uh for the future. Um, so in terms of talking about being men, masculinity and manhood have have been sort of this uh thing that has played a huge role in my life, my entire life, right? Um however conscious or unconscious uh uh that I've been of it, and for the most part, that hasn't been a positive impact, right? And I think that's probably something that maybe resonates for you, maybe resonates for a lot of people. Um, but the first two times that I experienced um manhood, masculinity as a positive or affirming or at least like not toxic uh way was in uh two places. One was when I was in the drag king troop in the early 2000s, um, while I was an undergrad and grad student at Michigan State, um, because we took this concept of masculinity and like totally subverted it, like took it away from men, uh from the single domain of men, and like um made it into this thing that we could play with and critique it and do all kinds of really queer and transgressive things with, um, and kind of almost de-weaponize it in our in our own lives. Yeah. But the second time was actually when you and I were both at uh at Vermont. Um, and tiny bit of backstory for anyone listening, at that point in time, 2008, 2009, um, I was already living out my life uh pretty full time as TJ, right? Like you met me as TJ, um, as a guy, no longer um as a girl or a woman, um, which had been the case for the first 25-ish years of of my life. Um and so everyone used he him, all that kind of stuff, some more consistently and successfully than others. Um But I also had not yet started to do anything medically, right? So my appearance didn't necessarily match that for some folks. Um and I appeared to either be a masculine or gender non-conforming woman, right? Okay. So man wasn't necessarily this automatic gender assignment that I'd get. Um, and I can't remember if this was during uh my first year there or over the summer after my first year, uh, but many of the men of color in our department started a men of color group for staff. Uh, I don't know if you remember this. Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Oh, yeah, I remember that.

Men Of Color, Belonging, And Recognition

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah. And so, you know, just to kind of like talk about gender, race, all that, all those kinds of things. Um, and especially in an environment like Vermont. Um, and you were part of that group. And when y'all sort of like very matter-of-factly told me about the group and invited me to join without a lot of fanfare, like it wasn't this big deal of like, let's make sure we're inclusive and invite the trans guy. Um, it was just sort of like assumed that obviously I'd I'd be invited, right? Like I'd obviously be a part of this group. It wasn't like a thing. Um, and so that was like that second time uh that I experienced manhood, masculinity, all these concepts, like in a very affirming, positive, positive way. So when we decided to have this conversation, I was like, that's one of the first things that sort of popped in my head.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that because I did not know that. As one, as a part of that group and a part of that conversation, uh, you have you have been TJ to me, right? Like as you said, you are living your life as a man in Vermont, and that's who I knew. I and and that's uh that's awesome to be a part of that you feeling positive about manly good, about about being a man. Now it's it's interesting. That's only two times in how old are we now? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

I mean, at that point, yeah, at that point I was like 27.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Yeah, so that would be the second time by now. Yeah, I mean there's a there's too big of a gap there. We need to that's uh that's a little bit troubling, but I think that's uh a reason why, as you said, why we're we're having this conversation today. And thank you for bringing that up because I you know, as you're talking about that, that was my actual first time of really delving into my gender, of of being a man, was in that group, in that in that Vermont group. And I before had uh almost like race, I had taken it for I had I hadn't taken it for granted, but I had used it as my card, right? And I and race was a combination with my gender. So as a black man, there was a lot to say with that, right? That that that holds a lot of context. So, but it was the first time I had to, I I tried to consciously separate my race from my gender, and that was that, and that's what that summer was. I think that whole year was just the year of really, really in-depth conversations about gender and about identity like and our identities and how we were engaging with each other. So I'm excited for this conversation because I've I hope that we can continue it. So, not to add any extra pressure on it, uh, but I hope we can continue that and and find that space. So awesome.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah, and I remember that. I remember you actually like naming that in one of the times we came together. Um, you actually almost verbatim what you just said, saying, I've thought about race, like I've had these uh conversations with myself and others about being a black man, and I really want to focus on the man part um in this in this space. Like I vividly remember you uh talking about that.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yeah, yeah. Well, we are definitely down memory lane here, and we're gonna add some some old man context to it too, because I you know our experiences have really changed over time, and and uh truthfully, we've just reconnected after so many years, right? Like it's been so many, so long since we've actually have had these kind of conversations. So I'm I'm excited about that. So what has really stuck for you in this last couple of years around around this concept of of being a man or masculinity? I don't know which I don't know which way to go with it. I'll probably just stick with masculinity because there's you know, a man sounds really too too man-ish. So so you know, for you, what what has masculinity looked like for these uh, you know, since our time in Vermont, I guess.

Positive Masculinity In POC Spaces

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Oh wow. Um, I feel like so much has happened around that conversation, um, whether for me personally or just the world in in general since 2008, 2009, feels like an entirely different world since then, even though it's been less than 20 years. Yeah, for real. But like I'm thinking about maybe like a couple of years later, because after that, I went to a different institution and then decided to move to Chicago to work on my doctorate. It was during that first year that I discovered this other space. And so this became sort of like other than the men of color group at Vermont, this other space became another space for me to like explore masculinity in a very awesome, powerful way. Was this group called the Bromboy Project, boy uh spelled B O I. Okay. And this was like an Oakland-based uh group, but like had folks from all over the country and a couple of folks from internationally as well. And it was just like this conglomerate of masculine of center people of color, right? So women, men, trans folks, non-binary folks who identified with masculinity in some form or fashion and were people of color. Um, and would come together to do like leadership work and gender justice work and uh that kind of stuff. And again, it was that sort of like moment of oh wow, I am now, I think I was 32 years old. And this was like, okay, here's another big positive, awesome moment with masculinity. And it just made me click around like how many times uh for me that has been in POC spaces and BIPOC spaces, right? It hasn't necessarily been in white spaces unless it's a very queer, feminist, mostly women-driven kind of space. And even then it's like, um, but it's been in men of color, masculine uh center people of color spaces that um, which is like so counter to how we're fed, what uh what men of color are like around gender, what masculinity of uh of color means and looks like, uh, these concepts of hyper sexualization and and violence and like homophobia and all these kinds of stuff, but those aren't the places where I've felt it, right? Um and then thinking about like politics and uh everything going on in the world, it's been white masculinity that has like completely turned our worlds over, right? The toxicity of white masculinity and the dominance and to use a big academic word, hegemony of it all like has has really messed things up for for everyone.

unknown 11:12

Yeah.

Culture, Music, And Shifting Norms

SPEAKER_02 11:15

You know, thank you for for bringing that up because I as you were talking, I was thinking about my own my own journey of masculinity. And the immediate thing was, you know, how I was taught as a black man, we'll we'll we'll stick to this, right? As a black man, as a as a man of color, yeah, there when I was growing up, homophobia, uh uh sexism, um, all the isms was predominantly in my experience, were every day part of our lives, um as as we were growing up. So that influence was there. Of course, now I've moved away, I'm I'm in India, but and and patriarchy here, and we I use patriarchy because I think that's a very distinction, right? The hierarchy, patriarchy here is very, very clear. Um, it's very interesting how it comes out, and and it is still a very patriarchal system. Uh so it's very unique, it's very interesting coming from from the US into India. But as a black man, you know, as I've gotten older, uh the community has also changed, right? Uh you know, uh I I don't like using this, but you know, that's so gay. Used to be something that was uh just regularly thrown out there to describe any kind of situation, right? A situation had nothing to do with with any kind of orientation, and all of a sudden you would say that's okay, right? Like it was just almost used as a common just throw it out there. Now I never I rarely hear it, if ever. And part particularly I don't hear from men of color. And and I grew up in the rap culture, and I think about how the rap culture has evolved over time, right? Like I think Snoop Dunk just got in trouble for something. I was it I didn't, I didn't I don't keep up with him, but I feel like he I I feel like I saw something about him getting in trouble about uh his homophobic, you know, freight uh uh phrases and what he used to say in his rap music and and in general, and he and I heard like he didn't apologize for those things, but I don't know what the other end of that story was. But I just had heard something, and it made and you made me think about it. I was like, for me, music was a huge part of the influence, right? Um, I grew up on the West Coast, so I grew up with West Coast rap, I grew up with ice cuba and you know all these other players and Dr. Dre and all that stuff, and so you know the the gangster life was very much a very homophobic uh lifestyle, you know, they were very like they because it was seen differently, right? Like you had to be a man for them being able to uh and in some ways take care of their family through the gang life because they weren't able to get anything else. If you were seen as being weak, you were seen as being gay, right? Like in those conversations, so anything that aligned to that had to be struck down immediately. Right now, I don't I don't feel that way when I listen to the music, right? Like I'm not I'm not hearing that element of shaming that was happening um in rap music. Now, to be truthful, I stay in the 90s of rap music because I don't I don't hear I don't know it doesn't make sense to me. I feel like I'm like my grandpa talking about you know RB music when he was listening to all of his music, but um yeah, so as you were talking about it, I was like, Yeah, you know, we have changed over this time period. Uh we have gotten older. All the people around me who had homophobic views don't have those anymore because experience, right? Life has kind of shown that it's not it's worthless, like these are we're people, right? Why are we gonna separate each other out? And also, who cares? I think more or less a lot of people might never like who who cares? Do what you gotta do as long as you don't mess with me, do it, do whatever you're gonna do. I don't I don't believe that is the correct way to look at it, but that seems to be where people are at, at least in people in you know, communities of color that I find myself around. Um here in India, it is unsaid the LGBT community is here, but it is not like I'm here, right? Like it's very very low. And there's not necessarily people going after, you know, LGBT folks, but there is there is some contention within family circles, um, primarily for you know the uh trans women that are you know how they live their lives here in India is very different. Um and there's a fear and there's uh there's more fear than anything else, but it's a it's a spiritual fear. So it's a very it's very unique of of uh seeing trans folks in this community, how they are welcomed and not welcomed at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Uh tell me more about the spiritual uh the spiritualities that you just mentioned.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Oh yeah, so so what you uh typically see is as you are at a light, right? Uh the cars are everyone's all jumbled up uh in your autos and your vehicles and all this stuff, and you will see uh uh a trans woman come up and uh she'll knock on your window and she'll ask for money, right? And if you just give them money, they'll do like a little prayer and then and they'll go their way. And if you don't, they'll usually just leave you alone as long as you don't say anything to them. And most people are very cautious about this because the thought process is is that if you are cursed by them, it will come true. And so you will see a group of women, trans women, come together and they will go to functions, they will go to weddings, they will go to to openings, and they will give their blessing to whatever is happening for that event, and they will be it's not necessarily welcomed, but they won't necessarily be unwelcome because the community, the people that event don't want the bad, you know, don't want to be cursed or or not have their blessing. Um, yeah, and so that's what I mean, like in that spiritual sense. That's at least what I've seen now. I can't go into depth about what that is all about, but that's what I've witnessed, and and when I've interacted with the women, you know, I'll give them change if I have to, if I have some. And unfortunately, we live in the GPE world, so every there's no cash anymore on us. But yeah, it's a really interesting, it's it's different than what I grew up with.

India, Spirituality, And Visibility

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, I can I can see that. Um, and I've I I obviously know close to nothing um about how uh gender plays out in in India, especially around around transness, by thinking about like how much history I imagine like plays into how folks show up. And it makes me wonder about like if those are ways that trans women um and folks who are hijrah in uh in India are able to show up uh in public in a way that is, if not affirmed, like you said, at least not not ostracized, not hated upon, not like excluded. And it becomes this kind of form of like, well, at least here in this way we're seen, um, versus whatever other way folks might want to show up. Um, that that is not the case. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

And and and truthfully, you know, there's this undercurrent of if it's not being flaunted, if it's not being thrown in people's faces, it's okay. The minute it is thrown in the face, then it becomes an issue, right? And that's and because there's there's trans folks that are, you know, there's folks that are going through transition that are living their normal lives. We don't, you know, it's not it's not talked about. Truthfully, it's it's it's not talked about. I think I bring up the issue of of my friends. Yeah, my friends, you know, LGBT, my friends gay, and they've been yeah, they got their partner coming over, and they're like, why are you talking about this? Like, who oh okay, that's nice for them. Why are we why are we bringing this up? This has no context for us. So yeah, so it's a very different different space. It's a different space.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Yeah. And I want to I want to go back to like something that you said um about sort of the confluence of like race and gender and um all of these things. Um I'll I'll I'll go back to uh like visibility and trans women as well, but you you mentioned like wanting to focus on the word patriarchy, right? Yeah, which is really important. And and I think when we are talking about masculinity, manhood, race, gender, that is such a key piece to bring in. Cause because again, it becomes um patriarchy. What what is what is patriarchy? Where did patriarchy come from? It's it's another tool of whiteness and imperialism and capitalism, right? It's not just even just a gender thing. Um, it's so much more than that. And again, there's this sort of like narrative that patriarchy is somehow worse in communities of color. Um there's like this level of like white people aren't quite as bad at patriarchy as folks of color are when every sort of like study and research and whatever shows the opposite. Um like I don't know, do you remember Prop 8 in California back in like 2008 or something?

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah, I remember Prop 8, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

So Prop 8 was uh around, I think, um, marriage equality. I don't really remember the details of it, but there was this whole thing that if Prop 8 was gonna pass and not pass, and uh there was a lot of um conversation about oh, uh folks of color are gonna vote for Prop 8 and it's gonna uh make marriage equality impossible in California and stuff like that. And then um Prop 8 passed, but the numbers showed that it wasn't folks of color that voted for it, it was white folks, right? Right? It was evangelical, uh, white Christian, uh conservative white folks that made Prop 8 pass and it wasn't communities of color. And again, the narrative but still stayed that it was because Obama was running, and so lots of folks of color went to vote, and that's why prop 8 passed, um, because folks of color voted for this homophobic thing. Um right, that narrative still stayed even with the numbers. With what you said about like rap music, right? Um rap music rap music having this sort of um ideal around what masculinity is and what manhood is and how you prop it up, um, versus like don't people don't normally talk about that in terms of country, right? But country music is the same way.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

It is, it's actually it's actually worse. Yeah, it just it just doesn't have cuss words and and and the how they say it, how they say it is what's is significantly different than what it said, you know, rap is pretty crass, right? It's to the point it's like it's gonna it's gonna go out there to shock you because that's what initially what rap was. Country music is that slow, I'm gonna drill this into you, and you won't know that it's actually happening, right? It's the subtlety uh of the pay of subtlety of patriarchy, uh, truthfully, because yeah, it's it's very uh sexist.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yeah, and sometimes it's not even that and so sometimes it's not even that subtle. Like what was it? Um save a horse, ride a cowboy. Like that's not exactly uh a subtle nod to uh sexuality and and manhood and like misogyny. And still, like, and even though it's one of the most known songs in in country, like it doesn't have that same uh effect as like pick up any sort of like uh rap song from the 80s and 90s, and people will be like, here's why it's misogynistic and here's why it's messed up. Um, but folks don't sit similarly do that with uh country songs that are very, very popular.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Yeah, I feel like country country all of a sudden wanted to uh go truly into the rebel roots because you know they got Beyonce and uh Little Nas uh X. Is it little Nas X? I don't is that is he the country black gay black countryman?

Naming Patriarchy, Whiteness, And Power

SPEAKER_00 24:02

A little bit, but I feel like little Nas X is also kind of going through some stuff right now, which he is.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

I think he is going through some stuff, but but he you know, black gay kid singing country, right? Then you got Beyonce super megastar throwing out their uh uh uh a country track, and white people, white people were upset. White people were very upset about this. They they were like, oh, little Nas X is okay. You know, he's a you know why? Because he's a man. But the minute a woman comes in there and steals the show and does it better than you. Oh no, no, no, no, we can't have that. Yeah, that's interesting. Patriarchy, I you know, when I when I think of patriarchy, I actually think about how we have defined our civilization because Western world is a very patriarchal system. It is built upon the fact that men right are the heads of house. Heads of this, heads of that. They run the men run things, but Africa and a lot of Asian countries are matriarchal, right? And they are seen as what lesser than right? Like these these can they're they're not given the resources because they are a matriarchal system, so we're gonna force them into a patriarchal system uh to turn them into what we want to turn them into. So, you know, if you want to make it uh Western versus you know African or or Asia, that's a that's a huge part of it, right? This system, this patriarchal system is putting everyone in a specific place, and you know, as gender, men are up on top.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

And it's the same here, right? Like uh when you think about like what the US was known as before Turtle Island, like Turtle Island didn't have a gender binary system, it didn't have a patriarchal system the way we recognize it today. It was again, it was another tool for settlers to come and dominate over the indigenous populations to be like, y'all are y'all are uh backwards. This is what normal uh gender is like, and this is what normal sexuality is like, meaning white gender, white sexuality, and those kinds of things. And that was the the tool of uh colonization again.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Yeah, it's colonization, right? The the white Europeans come over and say, I want to talk to the person in charge. A woman comes up, says, I'm the person in charge, and say, No, I have to talk to a man. Right? That that's literally how it started. Like there's so many different stories of colonization, especially um in Africa. Uh the uh Belgium, uh King Leopold, while he was creating the slavery system, um, and chat too slavery, while he was creating that, uh you know, his his travelers would go out and they would force, like, no, I want to talk to the man in charge. I don't want to talk to the woman, I want to talk to the man in charge. Um, and those little things, yeah, yeah, those little things, right? Push that that concept. So all of a sudden now to talk to these foreign people, you have to have this guy who, you know, they had to come up with someone, and then all of a sudden they get treated as the leader of the group. How long does it take to cycle that through, right? Right. Um, right. That that patriarchy. It's issues. Oh, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

And I think there's a lot of like I think I think there's a lot of like work being done now um in in communities of color. And I think that's why a group like the Brombo Project existed, right? Um, was because of this recognition of like, well, we've been fed these lies about our communities, about uh how gender is supposed to be or not supposed to be and sexuality and et cetera, et cetera. So we need to extract ourselves from this conversation on gender from white folks and like really focus on ourselves for a little bit. So we can go back to um how we understood how how these concepts were were lived out before uh whiteness showed up, before um we were sort of like taken over, either uh enslaved or colonized or etc. etc.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah, yeah. I I mean I don't know if I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this, but you know, patriarchy was biblically taught, right? In the Bible, it it it says in the Bible, and I'm putting air quotes, no one can see this, TJ can see this, so I'm gonna I'm saying this, you know, quotes that you know the man is the head of the house, then the woman, then you know, it gave the order, supposedly, of of how we are supposed to be and who's supposed to be in charge of things, and that has been the root of so many issues, I believe, in our in the US, right? In this pseudo not the the uh theocracy kind of government, right? To where we are to where we are right now in this, you know, like uh white old white men believing that they can tell a woman what she can do with her body, right? Yeah you can't have abortion, you can't you can't do this, you can't do that. Like all these different things, all these laws that they are trying to put in place to restrict people, yeah. Um, so that they keep power, right? Like at the end of the day, it's about white people keeping power, and not even white people, it's white wealthy people, you know, at some point. It it turned it doesn't even turn a color. It's all green. I truly believe that. You know, there's still layers of that green. But yeah, there's I don't know. I feel like I've I'm floating off into another another space right now.

Faith, Morality, And Control

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Um I I absolutely hear that. Like when you were talking about that, it fine, it made me made a click for me in terms of how how Eve is talked about, right? In terms of oh, Eve tricked Adam into this thing, and so now the Garden of Eden has disappeared, and it's because of Eve, and that, and that's why we have to control women. Um, because if we don't control women, they're gonna trick us and ruin our worlds and stuff like that. And then that comes back to like what's happened with Roe v. Wade and um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Isn't that crazy, right? Isn't that I feel like that's like when do we stop having sits? When do we give up our ability to think for ourselves? Not to say like everything is absolute, like I I know this is messing with people's faith. And I I am a Christian, I'm a a Quaker Christian, and and for years, and I love the Quakerism because it is about not this written thing, but it's about us as people, the connection that we have with each other. Yeah, we have scriptures, but as a non-programmed Quaker, I feel like because you are there and I am here, we are connected. It doesn't really matter beyond that. We all have that light in us, and that for me is like enough. Do I need to go into this hardcore scriptures of what I can and cannot do? Just treat people well. Why right? Why do we have to put people in boxes and and tell them what they can or cannot do?

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Yeah, um, yeah, and I and actually it's one of those things about um atheism that I like. I I don't I don't necessarily identify as uh as an atheist. Um, I don't know necessarily where I land on spirituality and and religion in general. Um, but one of the things that that really um made sense to me around atheism is uh this, I don't remember who said it, but basically this idea that like, why do I have to be promised a heaven to be a good person here today?

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Right?

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Like, why do I have to buy into this? Like, I have to behave in order not to go to hell and and and not just focus on my own morality and ethics as a human being today without concepts of punishment and reward, right? Like I can be a good person uh regardless of those things.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

I don't think I've heard, I don't think I've we've taught I've talked about atheism in that way.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

You know, yeah, yeah. The first time I heard about it, I was like, oh, that yep, that makes sense then.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah, right, absolutely. Right, right. Why do you need that? But uh we were raised in a space where morality is is connected to spirituality, right? Like it's it's really difficult to separate those two things, even if we try to say we're nations of laws. And this is why some of the the far right folks are are able to speak that because we are uh in our root that you know the Bible was a part of that, you know, foundational text that the country was built upon, you know, whether good or bad, right? Yeah, and it's all about interpretation. As I as I went to a uh a Christian college, I I quickly learned that interpretation is very important because how they saw things I did not see the same way, did not see it the same way.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Um anyways, how did you how did you experience masculinity and manhood in that context that you remember from?

Masculinity, Violence, And Fatherhood

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Oh, that's a great question. Well, I was I you know I think I was I was lost. I too truthfully was lost. There was at the time when I was at the school, there was a unspoken rule. I was I went to Concordia University in Irvine, I'm gonna put them on blast. There was an unspoken rule about uh uh being gay on campus, and they were eloquently and not so eloquently counseled out of the of the school, right? Um if they were if it was known that you were gay, it was a very difficult space to be. And and it was really tough. So at the time, this is you know 1998 to 2002. I I think the best thing, so there was a some Mormon twins that were on our campus, and Concordia is uh is LCMS Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, so the more conservative Lutherans, and they were just kind of reamed. They were, you know, we had to take we were required to take you know biblical classes, you know, Bible classes and stuff, and and the reformation and all kinds of things, and they were just their first year was rough. I didn't realize it, but they were uh you know isolated, they were being you know, targeted because they were Mormon and treated really badly. I don't think I really understood how much gay folks were being ostracized until uh I was in RA and I had uh that my one of my residents was gay, and he had a he was a manic depressant, he was on serious drugs, he was on serious medication, and he uh came down from that medication um and ended up killing himself. Um, and it was a whole string of things that started to come out about his interactions and relations with others and and how he was being treated on campus and and how the campus decided not to be upfront about what happened to him, but then kind of covered it up and disguised it as like, oh, this thing happened, so we're gonna move on now. They didn't even give this kid the the opportunity to really be a part of the community, um, and said he was he was left out, and I had no idea how to deal with that, right? Like I was going through, and as an RA, I felt like I let this kid down because I didn't know what was going on with him. I knew he had some roommate problems and we were trying to figure it out, but it was uh yeah, so in a lot of my friends who came out after they left Concordia, it took a long time to figure things out. I mean, I had my own issues about my my race coming out of being in this very white dominant space, and I had to rework what race meant to me, what being black meant to me. Um, I think that's why I was really, you know, when you met me in Vermont, I was uh, you know, I was coming out of my graduate program, and out of that graduate program, uh the the counseling sessions, we did our triads, and they were rough because I had to unpack so much stuff until I was able to even be able to talk about separating race and gender. I I wouldn't even be able to do that if I came straight from Concordia into Vermont. I wouldn't be able to do it. I don't think they would hire me, they would be like, this guy's fake. Um so yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. So yeah, it was I was completely covered by this white dominant space. Um, and I and I was celebrated as a man, I was isolated as a black man, I was tokenized as a black man, but I was celebrated in my maleness.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Like uh probably I can imagine feel so I'm I'm gonna use this uh word very intentionally, psychotic, right? In terms of like actually mentally feeling psychotic, of like, am I do by do I belong here or do I not belong here? Apparently, as a man I belong here, but as a black man I don't. So which one so it can feel sort of like mentally completely like lunacy?

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Yeah, no, and and I think for me it really hit was I moved from Irvine, California, back uh to South Central LA. So I graduated from Concordia Irvine, which is a predominantly white, wealthy community, to going back to the hood. And I was I was just reverse the culture shock like crazy. Like I, you know, crossed the street, you know, from my grandmother's house, you know, gangsters, you know, you know, the roll rolling 40s, uh, and and I was just like, I don't, I don't know where I belong anymore. And I literally spent uh two years stuck in my house because I just I I would just drive to work, come back home, have very little interaction. And it wasn't until one of my best friends, Kenji, um, kind of like drugged me out of there and say, like, dude, you you're missing out on things. What's going on with you? Um but yeah, it was like a crazy culture. It took me two years to get myself mentally at a space where I can actually feel like I can be a part of a black community because it had messed up my head so much over there.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Um then you decided to come to Vermont after that.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah, yeah. And then I went to Vermont, but you know, Vermont was like oh I as uh uh many folks will probably know uh uh Virginia, Alvin, their previous episodes. So Vermont crew is here strong, Raja, uh Vermont crew as well. That place is just so different. You know, you the UVM we were at. I don't know if it's still the UVM that we're the kick your butt and like just hold you over the coals until you like literally you know shed new skin. Yeah, that space was definitely different. It was it's uh there was no space like that. And and I think that's why we have amazing people like we have now. Uh truthfully, all the Vermonters, I I I'm just amazed at how how well everyone is doing and and just how awesome they are as just a as a community, as a group of people. It just I'm just always amazed when I when I check in with them.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah, and and just the bond that's like maintained itself across years and geographics.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Years, right? Years you see folks, and you're like, oh my gosh, how are you doing? And and it's almost like we're back right back there, having a a really deep conversation that is you know shaking our souls, and and we're open to it, you know. I think that was the case, yeah. Anyways, so as we're talking about masculinity patriarchy, right? Like we're going down Vermont lanes, it's so easy to do that sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

And and I was gonna say, like, we've also like I we have obviously talked about gender, and we've obviously talked about masculinity and manhood, but we've also um veered into so many other spaces, and uh at times like our conversation hasn't even been about gender, it's been like about religion, spirituality, race, etc., etc. And it just it shows like how incredibly difficult it is to pull these things apart and not have an like an honest conversation about uh masculinity without talking about these things.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Totally, totally, right? If you break it down from the individual group system, right? We talked about all three of those the individual, the group, and the system, patriarchy as the system, masculinity as the men group, and then us as individuals how we navigate those things. Um you're right. It's it is a sneaky bastard, and like it it's you there's no way to really get around it, and it's difficult to get rid of it.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Yeah, absolutely. It's very uh omnipresent.

Trans Masculinity And Rethinking “Man”

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yeah, yeah. No, I you know, uh something I want to kind of go back to. What was you know, as I'm thinking about it for myself, I you know, the moment that I truly understood that I was a man, um I I can think of two things in my life right now. One when I first got married, and two when I had my daughter. Um those are the times it clearly was indicating to me that I, you know, like I'm a man. And it made me have to think about what type of man I want to be. You know, um, and and that is still with me of like what type of man do I want to be? Because I don't necessarily want to be the man that is out there currently, the the image that is out there currently. Um I don't want to do that, but there are times and moments that it comes up, and I can't get away from that.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

So that's the part what's a what's an example of one of those those moments for you?

SPEAKER_02 43:24

You know, I I get worried, and this is some of this is about who I am as a what I believe, but you know, as a pacifist, but I get worried about my anger and and this this threat of is violence a natural part of who I am? Like, is anger gonna bring violence? And that's a question I have to ask myself. Like, is anger gonna bring my violence? I'll I'll be I'll be serious with you. There are times when my child has driven me to the point of just complete lunacy of like I want to spank you right now so badly because you are so you are just out out of out of walls, you're just going bonkers here, and I can't deal with it anymore. And I have to stop myself to say, like, whoa, is that is that a part of who I am, or is that just a reaction to the stress? And if it's a reaction of the stress, is that an even okay reaction? Right? Like, there's all these layers, and my me being a man, it does come into my conversation of like, am I, you know, have I been shown violence before? And that it's okay for men to be violent, it shows your masculinity as being violent, and we're like, I don't want that, right? I don't want to be anywhere near that. Um, but it comes up and it's a fear that I have, right? And I need to be cognizant of that fear. Um, because even as we're talking, I'm like, we haven't talked about violence, you know, where and where does that fit within masculinity? Um because I think that's a huge part.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Yeah, it is, and and similarly to you, in a different but in like a different way. Um, my my father and my father's violence was the number one reason. Um I resisted going on hormones or or calling myself a man initially, um, because I didn't want to replicate his his version of masculinity. So I actually, you know, came up with other terms to call myself, which were plenty applicable and relevant to me at that time. Um, but I didn't intentionally use the word man. I used this term uh girl boy. It was like a one one one word term uh that I spelt as like G-R-R-L-B-O-I, to kind of talk about gender in a very, very much more complicated outside of the binary way, but not as man, right? Uh as genderqueer, even trans or trans masculine was fine as long as I didn't say man and I didn't stick that word to myself. Um but like you're saying, like it that that connection between violence and manhood, I realized over time that like by refusing to call myself a man, what I was basically doing was rejecting the idea that I could be a man without enacting violence and dominance. So in a way, I was perpetuating that. I was cosigning that this is what being a man or being masculine is about. Um, so if I don't want to be violent, then I don't want to be a man. Um, that those were synonymous. Um and there's this book, um Thomas Page McBee's book called Amateur, uh, A Reckoning with Gender Identity and Masculinity. Um, he's a he's a trans man. He talks about uh this time in his life when he was training to be a boxer, um, and so talks about masculinity through that experience. And a resonant moment from that book for me was when he was talking about a conversation he had with a cis man about fathers and how, and this is a quote from the book um becoming a man had brought up the same question for both of us, the central worry of all sons of bad dads, how to be a man without being like your father. Right. And that question just sort of like killed me. And it didn't need to pretend, right? Like it he he didn't need to kind of say um that that meant dominance, violence, anger, control. It was sort of assumed that being like your father meant these things, that all these elements of toxic masculinity was synonymous, right? Oh wow. And and and the reality is like it's it's not synonymous. And toxic masculinity is also not just in the purview of men, right? I've I've met way too many queer women who embody those traits and like really problematic and misogynistic behaviors and thinking that that this is just about men. Um, and also I I used to be in the drag space, right? I used to be a drag king. Um, and kinging has that uh element as well, where some kings take on these like really toxic masculine traits. It's this is the way that you portray manhood masculinity rather than critiquing it or subverting it or undoing it in some way.

Loneliness, Intimacy, And Male Friendship

SPEAKER_02 48:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's um that's that's a lot to unpack. I'm still stuck on the father part, right? Like as a dad, because my my thought process, and I think about this with Asha, is you know, who's who's she gonna connect with? Because I don't want her to have daddy issues, right? Right, and daddy issues being that always seeking other men's approval because you didn't have your father's approval, yeah. And and and and that's one thing I always I'm I'm concerned about, right? Like that's one of those elements of as a father, how do I make sure my daughter doesn't need a man? I truly like I truly want her to be in this thought process, like she don't need no man, you know, like she wants to be with someone that will love her for who she is, regardless of who that is, but truthfully, she don't need no man. She can she can do everything she can on her own and and and with her community, right? So how do you how do you show that? Right, how do you show that, you know, to be proud of yourself, to to know that you still have your father's approval with whatever you do, and it and you know, fight the violence, right? Uh you know, she I I I don't know if it's just in our human nature to to at some point in time be involved in some some of these beginning essences of violence, right? Like shooting and you know, playing like you're shooting and and and punching and kicking and all those different things, right? Like those are all elements that we all naturally do, right? Like we're learning with our bodies, we're learning how we're engaging with each other. And in my mind, I go immediately to like, whoa, that's a violent action. I need you to stop that. And I have to sit back sometimes and think about like, if you just say no, are is she gonna is she gonna learn? Right? Is she gonna be able to identify why these things may not be really that good? You know, and and and how do we how do we do that? And yeah, so I as you were talking about that and you gave that quote, my mind just went to like I'm I'm stuck at fatherhood. Um toxic masculinity is totally there, and um, but I was stuck, I was stuck at being a dad in that in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Yeah, I can imagine that has a very, very different meaning and impact on on you. I definitely I'm not a father. I don't I don't necessarily think that's ever gonna be in my future, so that word doesn't have that kind of impact on you.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

You never know, you never know. Who who knows? Oh yeah, baby will pop up. That's clear, that's clear. Okay. Um well, how how does it feel as we're having this conversation? How do you navigate the trans space? Like, how is that being navigated through these through this transition of you know uh uh to masculinity? Like how is that you know, you kind of touched on it a little bit, and I was wondering about this, about not wanting to be identified as a man because of the violence. So how do you how do you navigate that and find your space right that you feel comfortable with in this you know within this structure that is very restrictive?

SPEAKER_00 52:06

That's that's a that's a great question. It's super complicated and nuanced. Um I mentioned the the Brambo project earlier.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Um and that I I connected with that uh organization during my first year as a doctoral student. Um and because of this conversation, that question that you're asking, and my experience with that group, um, I ended up switching my dissertation, pivoting it towards masculinity, um, and asking this question of how do uh transmasculine college students define, conceptualize, understand masculinity, both generally, but also in terms of for themselves. Um, because you know, from that experience, I had my own ideas about like what that meant for me and how I understood it and how I conceptualized it, which made me click around like, oh, trans men, trans guys, trans masculine folks have so much information, um, so much experience that we can share with cis men that they have no idea about, right? Because we've been through this threshold in whatever um capacity, uh whether hormones and surgery are part of it or not part of it, uh, if we identify as men, if we identify as non-binary, uh, what have you, there's there's a threat, some gender threshold that we pass through that cis men don't. Um and so there's a way that we've experienced the world that y'all will never understand. Totally. Um and and so we can bring this uh to to the conversation about how do we dismantle toxicity. And it was just such a fascinating um exploration for for me to do that, uh, to have this conversation with uh transmasculine college students uh around masculinity and for them to talk about similar sort of like these struggles around fathers, around um what they've been taught masculinity is, and then them unlearning that in the process of learning about themselves, unlearning these ideals because they're like, well, it doesn't match me. And if it doesn't match me, does that mean that I'm not a guy? Uh, or does it mean that no, it just it's not me? And this doesn't have to be a part of masculinity, doesn't have to be a part of manhood, that it's actually not natural. Um, and that we have to be socialized into this in this into this place of accepting violence as as norm, accepting um that the only way that men are allowed to have intimacy with each other is through sex and violence, and sometimes the intersection of sex and violence. Um, that that's the only way that there's intimacy.

unknown 54:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

I'm uh this is a lot.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Yeah, sorry, I kind of uh ramble on and kind of no, no, no, no.

White Masculinity vs Cultural Masculinities

SPEAKER_02 55:02

I I I think that's because it it's you know the intersections of sex and violence there's no way that you cannot talk about masculinity without sexual without sex, without the sexuality or the sexual exploitation, all those different things. Um how masculinity is used to to to keep to keep us in a space of always treating others less or than, right? Like because of my masculinity, I should be at full privilege and right to be able to treat anyone like shit. Right because of my masculinity, and that's and that's that toxicity that we're talking about. You know, it it really does come down to how we engage with others. Masculinity is how we are engaging not with only ourselves, but also with others.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Yeah, and that that is at the end of the day the reason why this quote unquote loneliness epidemic exists that folks talk about that um men are experiencing uh loneliness, and it's this it's a it's a big problem. And uh, how did it come to be? And that's that the crux of it is because men are not allowed to be intimate uh with each other um in non-sexual ways, in non-violent ways, to just sort of allow for touch to exist, allow for for us to be held uh by other men, by other masculine folks, not just by women, uh not just by femme folks, to not see the existence of women and femme people in our lives as uh a place where emotion can play out, where they can take care of us emotionally, um, but that we can do that for for ourselves. And so we disengage from each other. And so, yeah, obviously we're we're lonely because we're taught that we're supposed to be self-reliant and and be okay with being independent and doing things for ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Yeah. Yeah, which wow, which really begs that initial question what makes us men?

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Right. Yeah, which you know, I I even after all these years, I don't know that I have an answer to that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Yeah, yeah. When we started this conversation, I I was wondering what my answer is going to be, and I I don't have an answer.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

No, the more the more I've explored it, the more I've tried to answer it, the less I'm I feel like I'm able to. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

I mean, in itself, that's a scary thing, but also a very hopeful thing. That means that it's uh it's a never-ending change, right? And it's up to us to to to continue to strive to find something that fits for who we are and is better for others, not yeah, not what has been, right? How can we change this to make us better? Uh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, deep credit. This is such we were we were trying to have a deep conversation in this podcast, and I truly feel like we reached our goal, uh, because I am uh I'm in quiet con contemplation here of like what's what does it mean to be a man? And um and it's a question that we should always ask ourselves truthfully. Like when we stop asking ourselves what is it, what does it mean to be a man and what does it mean for me to be a man in this world, I think we do run in we start running into problems.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Yeah, absolutely. Right, absolutely, and especially when we think that we do have answers for for those questions. Totally concrete. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

Yeah, because that's again right, that's masculinity. That's masculinity right there, telling you that you know the answer. That's masculinity.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Yeah, you know it, it's concrete, it's fixed. Um, we can we can measure it, we can quantify it, all of those things. Yeah, really masculine constructs. Yeah. But but again, like it goes back to what we where we started with like how culture and race pleas into this stuff. Um when when you talked to uh asked about like how do you navigate this in terms of transist and gender, um, it reminded me of when I started. Um, when I was still at Michigan State and was still an undergrad grad student. Um, and I started telling people that, hey, uh my name is TJ now. Uh I use CM as pronouns, and like this is my reality around gender, et cetera. Uh, how quickly folks switch to like teaching me how to be a man. Um, and that being their way of like affirming, like being like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, absolutely. So let me teach you. Um, and one of the ways that people kept doing that is, and folks can't see this, but like I talk with my hands all the time, like you know that I. I move my my hands all the time. And when I would do that as someone who didn't present as masculine, who didn't have a beard, didn't have a deep voice, all of those things, that movement of hands was read as feminine, uh, because it was like your wrist is moving, right? Um you're not supposed to be this expressive, you're supposed to be stoic and still and like um hold very strong concrete space. But then when I went home, uh and home at the time was Cyprus, uh was a lot around uh other Middle Eastern folks, other Armenian folks, um, and uh being around Middle Eastern men, I was not seeing no, we talk with our hands. Middle Eastern men take up space by talking with hands, and there's all this movement and all this expressiveness. And that's when it clicked uh for me of like, oh, I'm not being socialized to be a man, I'm being socialized to be a white man.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

Yeah.

Openness Over Answers: Closing Reflections

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

Um, and again, it became like this when we talk about the gender binary, when we talk about manhood, we're talking about white manhood, when we're talking about white masculinity.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

Oh, wow, that is such a great distinction there. Um, great example. It made me think about the first time I when I came to India and I saw two men holding hands. And I thought and I was like, wow, is LTPT out here? That's really great. No, no, no, no. They were just walking and holding and and talking as friends, right? And and that is a regular occurrence here, right? That's that's a part of you know, there's a lot of patriarchy here, but in that in that area, uh what you saw, what you saw back in Cyprus is what happens here, right? Men take up space with with you know, there's they hug each other, they they hold hands, they are compassionate with each other. Um there is actually a lot of like really positive male habits here in India. The patriarchy thing is truthfully, you know, a lot of that came from colonialism, you know, from the British, um, and how the British reorganized Indian society to fit what it what it needed. Um but there's aspects there that are really, really, really beautiful. And um, and you're right, like even in the Middle East, there, you know, there's spaces, there's there's things, even within the US, right? Us coming together as a group of men to have conversations about this, right? You know, that's now coming into a thing here in India. That wasn't really a strong thing. Uh more openness and conversation where we're having those conversations very easily because we're trying to figure out what's going on with us and and how we can be better people. Um so yeah, when I when I first got here and I saw someone holding hands, I thought it was the LGBT thing. It's like, no, these are just they're friends, they're just holding hands. There's nothing to that. Um, but that's how ingrained it was. I put an orient, I put a sexuality to it versus just letting people hold hands. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

You know, uh, where do you think, where do you think what's your sense of like where the uh the want for conversation that you just mentioned uh has come from?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Um I think just education, right? This is a very educated population, um, and experiences. Indian folks travel the world. Let's be clear, like they are world travelers and they see so much and they come back. And the folks that come back are really just you know, they just bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to the table, and they're and they share that with communities. And so, you know, I've been really, you know, blessed to be in this coaching community here in India that is willing to have really strong conversations, you know. It does remind me of our DEI days, right? Like diversity is they're they're on the beginning cusp of diversity, right? Like diversity has happened a lot in the US, but they are in these conversations here around inclusivity within the Indian population, right? A lot of folks will think of that as more of the caste system of inclusive of a caste system, but now there's a lot of social identities that are coming that are now up for conversation and are part of that dialogue. So um it's it's like a new world, right? Like they're fresh, they're coming into the space, but they also have seen what's happened in other parts of the world. So they're taking all those different bits and they're making it their own. Um, and I think that's what makes it really unique here is that it's not necessarily remaking the wheel, it's looking at the wheel that's already made and saying, how can we do that better? Right. And not and maybe not have as many of the issues. Um, so uh that's the really uh uh exciting part about being here is just seeing that growth. Um and and you know, seeing Asha grow up in this, uh in this space is very different from what I grew up in. Um even for Janice, you know, she grew up here in India, but it's very different from what she grew up in. It's a different kind, different space now. So uh it's exciting and it also it's it's nerve-wracking, all all everything. It's everything, all wrapped up. So um, it's a beautiful space to be in, though. Thank you for this conversation. This is amazing. And I think, you know, based upon where we at with time, what would you like to close out our conversation with? You know, do you want to share something? You know, what would you want the listeners to walk away with at the end of our at the end of this conversation today?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

That's a great question. I feel like we've touched on so many different things that we could leave listeners with so many, um, so many elements. Um, I think at the very, very base level, um, I think what we've talked about is the idea that manhood and masculinity, neither one are necessarily natural. Uh, right, we're taught both both things, neither one of them are binary and they're definitely not the same thing. Um, but there are various multiple masculinities that are not the sole domain of of men, that anyone can hold it in all kinds of ways. Um, and that it's inextricable from other positionalities, right? Like we haven't been able to talk about masculinity, manhood, gender in its sort of like very singular sort of way. And when you brought up like the piece about patriarchy, right, those two are necessarily have to be connected. That when we're fighting matriarchy, when we're fighting misogyny, we're not fighting men, we're not fighting masculinity.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. You know, for me, what really stands out at the end of our conversation is that it's okay not to have an answer to what is what does it mean to be a man. Right? It's okay. Because that means we're oh I hope that means that we're open to changing it and seeing it into a new light. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and we will definitely do another podcast. This is this is too good. This is good stuff. We gotta we gotta do more of this good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

Absolutely. If if you're not too tired of me talking at you, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:37

What are you talking about? That was a great conversation. So definitely. No, it wasn't. All right, well, thank you so much. Appreciate you. Thank you for listening to What Makes Us. Make sure to rate or review this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or send it to a friend who you think will enjoy this podcast. Thank you for sharing your time and see you soon.