Wijn en Wijsheid
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Wijn en Wijsheid
5. Erni Loosen (English) – Global Ventures: Oregon, Eroica & The Emotion Behind Wine
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After exploring the roots of his winemaking philosophy in part 1, we now follow Erni Loosen beyond the steep slopes of the Mosel – into a world of bold international projects, pioneering Pinot Noir, and unexpected partnerships.
In this second English-language episode of Wijn en Wijsheid – The Podcast, Erni shares how his curiosity led him from Germany to the New World and back again, with stops in Oregon, Washington State, and Burgundy. From the creation of Villa Wolf and the Eroica Riesling collaboration, to his personal passion projects J. Christopher and Appassionata in Oregon’s Willamette Valley – Erni explains why great wine is always a balance of precision, patience, and place.
💬 In this episode, Erni talks about:
- How he brought German winemaking philosophy to Oregon’s Pinot Noir
- The story behind Eroica, his long-running Riesling collaboration with Chateau Ste. Michelle
- What inspired the creation of Appassionata, a project deeply influenced by classical music and long aging
- Why Oregon offers a unique canvas for Pinot Noir
- His plans in Burgundy: Perron de Mypont
- What he looks for in a vineyard – anywhere in the world
- And how remaining curious and open-minded keeps wine exciting
From Germany to the US and France, Erni proves that terroir is not just about location – it's a mindset. If you enjoyed part 1, this global deep dive will leave you inspired, curious, and maybe reaching for a bottle of Pinot.
🇳🇱 Deze aflevering is in het Engels – volgende keer hoor je ons weer in het Nederlands.
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✨ For wine lovers with a global palate – this one’s for you. 🍷🌍
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Nieuwe aflevering elke maand.
Hello, we are again with podcast number two with the same Ernie Lozen. We uh the podcast one was only about your wine estate. Wine could talk to Lawson and Mosul, but you have far more to do. Far you have time enough, so you thought because uh you are a very enterprising person. You do a lot of you never sit still and etc. etc. So that ended up in several companies, even. So um in 1992 we met, of course, for the first time, and then uh we worked together for a few years, and then suddenly uh in 1995 was it you had the idea of starting up a company to make basic uh Riesling for a very affordable price to introduce people to Riesling wines, and that was the starting of your company, Lozen brought us, what you did with your brother Thomas, and then you started up the Dr. L uh brand. Actually, it's a brand.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the well the the whole thing was, I mean, barely forced by the by the reason that I um became a member of the VDP in 93, 1993, and you see now as a VDP member, night uh you know you're not allowed to uh buy contracted fruit, you know. So before that I always had a Dr. Lozen, Riesling Dry and Riesling Fruity, you know, which was from their own vineyards, you know. But this was a very successful uh thing because you know in these days still all the wines had a vineyard name on it, you know, even simple or you know, then they had their kind of vineyard names which nobody knew, you know, Matai's Pilgeon or so, you know. So but that was a very innovative thing, which basically um uh Wilhelm Haag from Fritz Haag started in I think in 87 or 86 or 85 by by only producing a Fritz Haag Riesling, you know. That was in these days super innovative. Nobody did this in these days, you know. We started this in 1990 um in 87, Fritz Haag in 85, by calling it only Dr. Riesling, you know, Dr. Loesen Riesling Dry and the Dr. Loesen Riesling Dry from 1987 had been winning the German Riesing Prize for dry wines, you know. That's so that was a nice success. But then in 93, when I became VDP member, um and this whole thing had been becoming very successful, Dr. Losen Riesing. I also didn't have enough own fruit anymore that I couldn't produce it 100% out of our own fruit. So I started to contract fruit, you know, so that it was 20% contracted fruit, 80% my own fruit, but then it became bigger and bigger. And then but we had a conflict that the uh VDP doesn't allow it, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh, and so and then also my uh English importer, um Nigel Blundel from Grundel, he said, Ernst, tell me, how should we poor English people ever understand a German label which says Schloss Buckle Heimer Kopfer Gruber Riesling Trunkenbecker nach Sleezer? You know, how should we ever understand such a label?
SPEAKER_03You know, we we need something which we poor English people can understand. And I said, Okay, Nigel, I see your point. Let me think about it. And so we created this label, Dr. L. Riesling. So that was the first one was 95 or 99, uh 1995 or 96. 95. 95, Dr. L. Riesling, you know? 95 Riesling, that's it. No Mosul, nothing. And I said, Look, Nigel, what do you think about it? We shortened Dr. Lozen to Dr. L. We can't leave the vintage away, we can't leave the I mean the grapevrity day. We all know less is more, but this is as less we can put on a label, you know. And I think even you poor English people should understand such a simple label. And he said, Brilliant, Ernie. Brilliant, and so and then and then uh it became barely by I mean it we founded a separate company and with my brother, Lozen Brothers, you know. Uh and that became a separate company, had nothing to do with a VDP, so a different label, you know. So it is all that it is not I mean that it is not um uh mixed up with a Dr. Lozen label. So nowadays I say Dr. Lozen on the label is only 100% own fruit from own vineyards. Dr. L is our uh Nego's company, if you say that. But the difference is we do the American uh way of uh uh of production here. No, everything is produced hundred percent in our winery, so we don't uh buy any, I mean, um in you know, free bulk market for cheap prices and let it done in a bottling line. We have all in-house done. That means from fruit and juice, which we m we which is under the head winemaker, you know, under the regime of the head winemaker Bernie. So we ferment it ourselves, we uh do all the winemaking ourselves, we bottling ourselves, we have the complete control from making to bottling, and that is different to a lot of brands, especially Germany. They buy the you know, they buy the bulk, you know, wine which you know, put it together, put it uh truck it to a bottling line, and that's it, you know. But we think if you do such a brand, you know, you have to have the control about the winemaking. And so in a lot of countries, the Dr. L is also now in a hundred countries, you know, and a lot of countries, this Dr. L is often in in competitions, you know, higher rated as single vineyards from other producers, you know, because we have the total control about it, and that is very important for us, you know. But Dr. L became a success story, we separated it from the VDP, and that was basically the whole thing, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was a very good success. And that is what I like I like I always very interested in brand building, but you're actually a brand builder.
SPEAKER_03But that is that was yeah, that becomes really in a lot of countries nowadays, it's the number one reasoning brand, you know, Dr. L reasoning. But I mean, you know, I'm not afraid and I mean put it next to others, you know, and so we we really work every day, and that I think was in the old days a big problem, you know. Cheap wines, they said, Oh yeah, but they're all concentrated on the high-end wines, and the and the leftovers have been then cheaply sold, you know. That was really often dodgy quality, and so we sold we sold it for $7.95. And I tell you, it is much more difficult, and you have to put much more emphasise, you know, if you want to produce an entry-level wine, you know, because this you have to give much more focus on such a wine, because you often have only one shot, you know. So say people somewhere in the world where you never had Riesling, you know, they said, Oh, Riesling seems to be nice, and so they don't buy immediately like I mean, if you want to experience Bordeaux, you don't buy immediately Chateau La Tour, you buy, I mean, an entry-level wine like uh Mouton Cadet, you know, or not Mouton Rochelle, you know, which is ten, ten dollars or whatever, you know. And if this wine sucks, you know, you have only this one shot of a new experience for a new customer. If this wine sucks, he will say, No, I don't like Bordeaux. And if this wine on the reasoning, you know, entry-level reasoning, which is our $10 to $12 in the US, you know, if this wine sucks, they say, No, and I I don't know. Riesling is not, that is not my thing. So that's the reason it's even more important to build a brand that this kind of entry-level wine is a real convincing wine, because if people taste it and say, Oh, that's nice, you know, then they think about reasoning and possibly continue to buy also better reasonings, you know. So from that point of view, you have to give a lot of attention to to a branded entry-level wine, you know, to make, try every year to make really the best as possible for such a wine, because then you can grow it. Because if the people like it, they said, Oh, that's a brand which is reliable, you know. I can buy it all over the world. And I know this is a good wine, and then I can drink it also in the Maldives or whatever, you know, in Iceland. We have it.
SPEAKER_01And so a few years ago, I was on holidays in in Canada. Yeah, we hired a cabin there, so big wooden house on a lake. So we went to the grocery shop, do grocery stuff and so on, and then I said, We have to go to the liquor store, yeah, because we need wine and beers, of course. So I went to the liquor store, parked the car, popped into the liquor store, and almost broke my neck about one big pellet, Dr. L.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but it's important. I get so I get so many letters from people from all over the world. In the middle of nowhere. Yeah, and from the middle of nowhere. And people, there was this couple, you know, with trains-only reasoning, you know, that that they love reasoning and fruity-style reasoning, you know. And so, and they said, Oh, you know, that is our favorite friend, but we have been going, uh, we have been going for our wedding, you know, for our wedding vacation. We have been going to the Moldives, you know, and you can't bring wine there because it's a Muslim country and so, you know, and so, you know. And we have been going to this resort, and we have been so happy, you know, what they had on the list, Dr. L. Riesling, Frudi, you know, our favorite wine, and that is the great thing, you know, we drink it in America and we can drink it on the Moldives, it's the same quality, and it is a reliable brand. And they said, You saved our five days, we have been on the Moldaves, we have been drinking every day this way, you know? It was so nice, you know, and so and then people from the Mongolia, you know, and so you know, who said, you know, I mean, I was in Mongolia and try found Dr. L, you know, it was so nice because my wife, that's her favorite wine, you know, and so she liked it so much. And they sent me a wonderful uh photo. They had been somewhere in the countryside, stuck in a traffic jam, snow, you know, cold and snow, and they had a bottle in the uh in the in the back, you know, and sticked it in the in the snow and made a photo, you know. And so, you know, it's great. So it's fantastic if you get all these reviews from people from all over the world and say, oh my god, that's so nice that we found this wine, you know.
SPEAKER_01And so is Dr. L the big now the biggest uh reselling blend in Germany?
SPEAKER_03No, no, by far not. No my god, no, no. I mean, we would be not able to, I'm such big brands as others have it, you know. I mean, like the corporative and so, we would not be able to produce that big quantity in this kind of quality. So this is also limited, you know, because you can't, I mean, still you need to get the right grapes, the right choose choose, the right sources, and so we are also willing to pay more. And so from that point of view, we are always more expensive, and then you are also limited, you know. I mean, if you want to go really huge, you have to be the cheapest, you know, and that that we really not able, and we also don't want to do it, you know. It is a solid brand, you know, which we can um place, you know, but it is not the it is the most expensive of the entry-level wine, you know, in the US and so. And I we're very happy with that, you know. And that I mean, and this is something which which we also introduce, you know, because I'm I'm I'm a reasoning fan, sure, you know, but I'm a big Pinot fan too. I like Pinot Gris, I like Pinot Noir, I like Pinot Um Planck, you know. But I mean the Mosul has this long tradition of reasoning, but I mean the Pinot Ryls definitely are a Rhine variety, you know. So they have a thousand years of tradition on the Rhine, you know. And so I always wanted to Pinot Rietals, you know, but I didn't wanted to do it on the Mosul because I said this is no tradition really here. You mean we create with reasoning, you know. I mean, sure you can also grow Shiraz and Burgundy, but why should you do it? Because they have this great tradition for Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. And so I said, Well, where I have to go then, sure, I have to go to the Rhine because it's a long tradition. And then I found 96, you know, this wonderful estate, very old traditional estate on the Rhine, which is called Villewolf, you know. And there we I said, This is the idle place, you know, to do my my my passion for Pinot, you know. And so that is what we concentrate there. We do Riesling too. I mean, Riesling is all over the Germany, you know. But we have, I mean, uh we we we started there Pinot Blanc, Pinot Gris, Pinot Noir, and Pinot Noir Rose, you know. Um Gewürz. Yeah, and the Gewürztramina, but yeah, and Gewürz, it's also a rival for the from the Rhine, you know, and concentrated here, you know, and that became also a very nice success, you know. Willawolf, Pinot Gris, Willa Wolf, Pinot Planck, Willa Wolf, Pinot Noir, Willa Wolf, Pinot Noir, Rose, which is a huge success, you know, since the we have this rose hype since five, six, seven years or whatever it started, you know, because there's not many hundred percent rose from 100% Pinot Noir crepes, you know, because Pinot Noir is so precious. People want to make a red wine because they sell it much more expensive as a red wine, as a rose, you know. But therefore, as we said, we have such a huge access here to Pinot Noir crepes in Germany in the Falls, you know, that we can do very affordable Pinot Noir Rosé wines, you know, and that is really in a lot of countries. I mean, as of Finland, where I just came from, uh, the Pinot Noir Rosé is doing crazy there. Yeah, you know. And so, and here we do, I mean, concentrate on Pinot Noir and Pinot Noir Rosé, Pinot Gris and uh Pinot Blanc, you know. That's just what I brought here. Yeah. The Kraubegunda. I mean, this is the in the German labeling we do the German names, but uh for the export market we use the international name. No, no, we have export. We also have the German. Yeah, the funny thing, you guys wanted the German name, you know? Because I mean, okay, uh you you rather understand it, you know. But if you go to to another country much further away, they don't know the German language. They know what a Pinot Gris is, you know, because Pinot Michael Pinot Gris, but they don't know the German name.
SPEAKER_01But I that is the you are the only country who wanted we want to teach people it's a German wine, so why don't you use German names then? That would have been idea.
SPEAKER_03We have been also forced by the German producer by the German consumers to do the German name because I didn't want to print two labels, you know. So I said, okay, uh, let's do all Pinot Gris. But they get we get so many phone calls from German consumers and said, Why are you putting Pinot Gris on the label?
SPEAKER_00We are here in Germany, you know. Why you don't put Crowbagon on the label?
SPEAKER_03And they basically I said, Yeah, but you all know what Pinot Gris means or is a bit traditional. Yeah, but why you don't do the crowbagon on the label? So then then then we said, okay, then the first batch you ever made from the filler.
SPEAKER_01Well, I bought one of the first batches, you know that. Yeah, so and and and for for Wein und Arendt, yeah, it's a big product.
SPEAKER_03We go lots and lots of bottles of the and we do a different style like Elsa's, you know, Elsa's is much more bigger, richer. Our Pinot Gris is uh you know 12.5%, 12 to 12.5 alcohol and dry and dry, and only 100% healthy fruit. We don't allow like Elsa's has a lot of potrytis fruit, noble rotten fruit in there that dilutes, from my opinion, the wine hikes and far too high up in the alcohol that you end up with 14.5. And so and for me, a Pinot Gris or Pinot Grigio in Italy, you know, um, should be a refreshing wine, you know, and with some acidity. That's the reason we harvest rather a little bit earlier, that it is all healthy, that we have a nice acidity because Pinot Gris is a grape variety which often lose the limit the acidity, you know, and so and then we want the freshness and the aromatics, you know, because of the aromatic crab variety. And so you see this is a beautiful wine and drinkable, yeah, super nice.
SPEAKER_01Is this all estate wines? Uh no, no, it's not you buy in.
SPEAKER_03Because we are not VDP in and we are not VDP in Villa Wolf, you know. And so we can here we are the German wine law. I mean, doesn't say anything about it, you know. But uh VDP, it's only a VDP thing, you know, that it has to be. That's the reason I don't want to be VDP there too, you know. And so because you can do, because it is this old thinking, oh, it has to be 100%.
SPEAKER_00It must be this kind of you know, uh winemaker who has a big neck with uh red nose, no, and sitting the whole day in his little dark cellar and working on his barrels, and only this guy who has I mean, uh his hands look like this, then these guys can know.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that is a German uh thing. I mean, in America, there are people who have the most expensive wines, uh, they have not even a single vineyard. I mean, if you do it right, you can make as great wines from contracted fruit. You only have to work with the growers, you know, that they produce the fruit you want, you know. And so from that point of view, but it is a German thing that they think, oh, that he bought the not only German, it's also French. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he bought the he bought the grapes, and you know, the how can you make great wines out of it? But the American approach, I mean, we have more the American approach because we we are very American-oriented. We have four companies in the US, you know. Um, have like three productions even in the US, you know, and so they think totally differently in this thing, you know. They don't make this difference, you know. They have only one one one measurement, you know. Is it a great wine or not? You know, that is all about. It's not about you know that you're sitting in the deep dark cellar and you know, um in the dark. And yeah, and that that that doesn't make mean quality, you know. No, the quality is in the glass.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but the filler wolf wines are bottled here in Wittlich, I think.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, well, it depends. You know, when we have the capital, no capital now we bottle in the false as in Wittlich. But that is, I mean, but but this is also by law. You can bottle in a circular of 100 kilometers. A lot of I mean, a lot of wine little wineries don't bottle themselves anymore. They have a contracted bottling line because a bottling line is far too expensive. If you bottle only for two weeks, uh you can't afford an investment of 200,000 euros if you have only two weeks for bottling. No, yeah. I mean, most people don't bottle themselves anymore. They bring it to a bottling line or mobile bottling line comes to you, and that is nothing else. We have a we have a uh a bottling line, you know, which other people also can rent, you know. And so that is a typical, I mean, contract bottling uh facility, you know, contracted following business, which we also use for ourselves, you know. I mean, it makes no sense. But we have also contracted bottling line coming to the winery, you know. So the estate, for example, we have also some vineyards where we do hundreds and estate. Uh this we do with a uh with a contracted bottling line, but this is not a quality issue. Bottling is a bottling line, is a bottling line, it doesn't matter where it is, you know. Yeah, I don't know. So from that point of view.
SPEAKER_01Now I was thinking for about the volume because I I visited several times in Wachenheim Vila Wolf, and you see it's quite small from the the area, from from there, the the space, the working space.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so uh yeah, for for for contracted bottling line, it's okay, you know, because we clean everything, the the big room we're cleaning up and do it there. But I mean, uh but we use both capacities, you know. I mean, it doesn't that is an internal decision, it has nothing to do with quality. Okay. So you had Dr. L was revered to be able to do that. And the Willawolf estate and the Villa Wolf production, you know, and so we're just I mean, very much on the Pinot Riddles, concentrate on the Pinot Riddles, but I mean I must say the the Willawulf Riesling Dry also becoming bigger and bigger brand, you know. Yeah, uh, especially it is um it is uh uh really big in Finland, you know. Willewolf, you know, Riesling, Dry. Uh it's in all the uh in all the uh shops, you know, in all the uh motor pole shops in Finland, you know. Yeah, well that was 1996, you know. And then I have been going, uh yeah, therefore that we always had this um uh importing company you know in the US, you know, the Lozen Brothers USA. Um 1999, we agreed with Chateau Saint-Michel in Seattle, which it is Washington State. Washington State, which is still the largest single reasoning producer in the world. No, with I mean, and and and on the peak, they produced 1.2 million cases.
SPEAKER_01I I read 1 million cases, 1.2, which is which is 12, which is 12 million bottles.
SPEAKER_03It was bigger because they have also Columbia Crest and all these other stuff. Oh, okay, okay. They belong to them, you know. Um so um, and we I met the CEO in these days, Alan Shub, he was a very visionary guy, really visionary guy. He built Chateau Saint-Michel to this size, you know, very visionary. And uh but reasoning had this 99, you know, when we started it, still this cheap image, you know. And he said, What we said, what can we do to take the the reasoning image out of this cheap corner, you know, cheap and sweet, you know, that was always the the the the image, you know. And so and I said, look, you know, Alan, why are we not doing a joint venture, putting the best out of the old world and the new world together, you know, and producing a high-end reasoning. For that time, riening was in average, American Riesling in average was about $5.99 to $7.99 in this price range, you know. And why we're not doing a $25? That was high for America, a $25 high-end reasoning. Uh, we started a joint venture together, you know, and I have been going to the vineyards. Uh, well, we had to change a lot in the vineyards because therefore that reasoning was such a cheap grape variety and cheap in image, you know, they didn't put any efforts into the vineyard. And if you don't put efforts in the vineyard, how can you increase the quality of the grapes, you know? Because the grapes are still the base of the quality of the wine, you know. And so, because what they did, because they didn't want to invest anything, they made deficit irrigation, which works with red wines to get more phenolics, you know. They did leaf plucking, you know, boom, you know, put it that is horrible. You get more phenolics with reasoning, you don't want with white wine phenolics, you get the phenolics with red wine, that's good, you know. So they did the whole same treatment as with red wine because they didn't want to change, it's much easier, you know. And I said, Look, folks, you know, we have to change this, you know. We want at least for the vineyards, which we use for Eroika. This is the brand, you know. We called it Eroika. It's the um uh what is it, the uh the the uh uh third symphony of Beethoven. Beethoven, yeah, yeah. And so because we wanted to have a German name, but not a skitsy name like Lorelei or whatever, you know, and so some relationship. Relationship to Germany. But again, who knows that Beethoven is German and Austrians think still think it's an Austrian and Hitler is German. And so from that point of view, we wanted to have a kind of relationship, possibly too sophisticated for the most people. Because we had this wrestler from Las Vegas. His favorite wine is Eroika, you know, but he still didn't get it. He always uh thrown them up in the state of I want to have my cases of erotica.
SPEAKER_04Erotica, erotica.
SPEAKER_03And so, but um, so erotica, we had to change the winemaking, we had to change the the vineyard management. That was very important, you know, to get you know longer hang time, you know, uh less phenolics, you know, uh higher acidity, lower ripeness. We don't want to have recently with 14% alcohol, you know. Now we have been after I mean 10 years of of changing and higher elevation, more north, blah, blah, blah. And so we have been able to harvest our vineyards for the Eroika um the same time as we do in the Mosul. Isn't it crazy? And this is a region which has 3,600 uh sunshine hours a year. We here in the Mosul have 1100, only a third, you know. I mean, and this eastern Washington is a fucking desert, you know. I mean, you have to do arrogate, you know, the vineyards. But if you do the right thing, you know, viticulture-wise, you can do it, you know. So from that point of view, also the question which always arises, um, oh, what do you do with global warming when you start crying Sierra and so, you know? Sorry, I learned in the last 20 years, you know, 25 years now in Washington State. I learned in the 25 years how to produce great reasoning in a hot climate, you know. I mean, before we will have 3,600 sunshine hours here on the Mosul, you know, I mean, that takes a few hundred years again, you know, if at all, you know. And so, but there are so many tools. That's the reason I always find it so strange, you know. But it's typical, I think a lot of growers, they're sitting there, oh, it's getting warmer and warmer, what should I do? And so they sit there and uh let it happen, you know. But there is a lot of viticultural ways, and I learned this, you know, by by again learning by doing. I was faced sudden suddenly to do decisions and to do um to say, how can we extend hang time, which is so important for reasoning, you know? And so we tried so many things. There are a lot of viticultural methods where you can fight global warming. You know, don't have to sit there and say, oh, what should I do?
SPEAKER_02You cannot change anything.
SPEAKER_03You can't change anything. No, there is a lot of tools where you can fight it, you know, especially if you work in a desert like eastern Washington, you know. And so from that point of view, that was the next thing. The Eroica, the reasoning, became since '99, Eeroica Reasoning, the American Eroica reasoning, is the had the highest accolades, made the highest accolades, you know, never less than 90 points, had made the highest accolades. It was the first 99 and 100 point Parker point wine for Washington State, you know, the Eroika TPA, you know. So until now, they had made the highest accolades for Chateau Saint-Michel. This the most little joint venture, it's only 25,000 case production, you know, made but made the most accolades for Washington for Saint Michelle. So it's still a success story, and we're still continuing, you know. I'm now the oldest donkey in this company, you know, since 25 years. There's only one girl left, you know. Uh all the others are, you know, um gone and changed. You know, so I saw four or five C CEOs already, you know, in my career. And so, you know, I'm the only one who is left over there. Yeah, it does because you're you're our age.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so you have to do like me to get keep on tracking, as the Americans say, keep on tracking. Don't say that.
SPEAKER_03And so and the next thing was then because I love Pinot Noir. I told uh just previously that Reasoning and Pinot Noir as um they are natural brothers and sisters, you know, they are twins, you know, the white and red twin, you know. So if you like Reeseing, you love Pinot Noir. I love Pinot Noir first, you know, because I collect since 1985 Pinot Noir. I don't know, I have you know, my cellar possibly 10,000 bottles of uh burgundies in my cellar, and so and then therefore that our head office of Lozen Brothers is in um Portland, Oregon. Oregon is the burgundy of America, and so my lawyer uh offered me then uh he is specialized in the wine industry. An old friend of mine uh speaks freely German, he's basically German born, you know. And um and he said, Man, you know, I have a really great, I mean, I mean, great spot, you know, in the Villamette Valley, you know, next to the original Rex Hill Vineyard, which is the oldest vineyard there in the in in the Shahele Mountains, you know. And so you have to buy it because you are here and you know, you are nearly an Oregonian. You have uh two companies here, and so you know everybody knows you. You should make wine here, you know. I said, well, I never sure, but I never had it on my you know on the screen, you know. And so, but he said he had uh he said, Yeah, that's the last great piece, you have to buy it, you know. And so yeah, we decided then in 2005, you know, to do um uh to do our first wine there, you know. Not yet bought the the land, you know. I bought the land later in 2009, 2005 I couldn't decide it yet, you know. It was a little bit too expensive, and uh, and we have to investments, you know, and was a little bit too high, you know. But then with the what was it, 2009, 2010 was this kind of uh uh recession, uh was not Lehman Brothers, it was the IT bubble which burst, you know, and suddenly the prices have been falling like crazy. I get it basically for half the price as it was offered two, two, three years earlier. But we already started 2005 to do uh a wine, which I thought, and I want to do it differently, as everybody did. I said, let's do a recent uh Pinot Noir, you know, um a bit in a in a different idea with a different idea. Um uh longer yeast contact, you know, two years in the barrel, you know, and so for ageability, you know. And this wine will not release before it is ten years old, you know. And that we called Apassionata. Again, I like to call my uh enterprises in the in in the US alone after Napoleon, you know. And Apassionata is uh is again a piece of Napoleon, you know, uh which he wrote for for uh not for Napoleon from from um Beethoven, which he wrote for Napoleon, you know. A passionate Apassionata. In this case, it it it it it ex expresses Apassionata expresses my passion for Pinot Noir. Um, but it is also at the same time a piece of Beethoven again, you know. Um we call it Apassionata. Uh and we thought you know, in the US you produce wine always for immediate release, you know, they pro produce it and then immediately out, you know. I personally like my Pinot Noirs with some age, you know, because I think uh they show so much better, that's so much more, you know, if they have some age. A very, very young Pinot Noir is for me, uh shows the potential, hopefully, you know, but then you should age it a bit, you know. And so with the Apache Nata idea, it was totally different what the what the what usually the American estates do. We produce them for ageability and don't release them um uh too early, you know. We give them always some age, you know. Um therefore that we don't have a I mean, you know, we we have no classification in the new world. And it is, I think it is silly to um to try and to adapt the the French system, say concrete, premi cru and village, then to the new world. I mean, that I mean it's I find it it's uh it makes no sense to me, you know. But we we need we wanted to do have a kind of a classification because we do different wines because of the different soil types we have on the on the property, you know. On the property we have the the typical red uh uh red weathered uh volcanic soil, what they call jory. What you have here, yeah, yeah, what we have in the Wurzgarten. Then we have the sedimentary soil, which came from the Masoula flood in there, so up to 200 uh feet high, you know, you have all the sedimentary soil from the Masoula flood, and then up the top, which was not flooded, has still the jory, you know, the red jory. But in some areas, because it's a volcanic area, you know, and we have on the top of our property, we have two blocks, you know, which is plaque basalt stones, you know, like we have in the Peshtein, you know. Okay, and so uh and uh so these three soil types do totally different wines, you know. And so we said, Oh, how can we classify it then? You know, and my CEO of Lozen Brothers USA, Kirk Wittdy, you know, Kirk, old good Kirk, you know, he basically we are all not really, I mean, out of the wine business, you know. He started conducting, you know, uh a conductor, so he's big in music, you know, and that is also he was always up with Beethoven, yeah. And he said, Yeah, but you know what we have a Beethoven, you know, um sonata, you choose for for this for for our you know estate there. So why are we not doing the classification and using the three movements of the upper sonata sonata, you know? And it starts with Alegro, goes into Andante, and with everything of Beethoven ends up with fortissimo. You know, as we know, you know, and I said that's a good idea, you know. And so I brought now here to taste the Andante, you know. So and Andante is the red jewelry, the red vulcanic soil. These wines need always a little bit more time, you know, to develop. The Aleco, the first wine, you know, this is the sedimentary soil, more alluvial sedimentary soil, lighter soil. These wines need then only three to five years before they get released, you know. Um, then the Andante from the red jewelry, you know, the red vulcanic soil needs a bit more time, you know. They need then so six to eight years, you know, before they get released. And then the the wine, which is from this pleck basal pluck, I mean this the soil, it's only basal stones. You see only stones, you know. It's like in voila voila. And um, so and these wines need the most time, you know. They're very, very tight, you know. And so and these wines we release, then we just release the 13 vintage, you know, so 10 to 12 years, you know. That is very, very unusual for American wines, you know. And so let's taste the the Andante, you know, if you like. Um, so and um this is now 2017, which is just in the release now. And uh and here the winemaking is always two years in the barrel. No batonage, sure. With the red wines, you don't do batonage. Um so for ageability, also all indigenous yeast fermentation, you know, and no no filtration and no fining at all, you know, because after two years you don't need fining and no because the wines are clear and so everything. Um so it's a very, very natural and small two-ton fermenters, open bed fermenters, all food, food punched down or hand punched down, very, very gentle, you know.
SPEAKER_01Um and is the the the the alcoholic fermentation made in steel or in uh uh and and also in wood?
SPEAKER_03No, two-ton fermenters, which are open fermenters, which are we have wood and we have stainless steel. Oh okay, but it doesn't make a huge difference.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to visit Willamet, do you say Willamette Valley? Willamet.
SPEAKER_03That is the wine region, yeah. Will Willamet? In the south of Portland, yeah. Is it called Willamette Will Willamet, like Willamette? Willamet. Willamet. I mean there's Willamette. Normal people would say Willamette, but they with their dialect they say Willamet.
SPEAKER_01Willamet, okay. I wanted to visit that uh this year, but uh we changed our plan. So uh uh we go now to Südsteinark, and then next year we we wanted to visit uh Willamette. Willamet Valley, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's it's Burgundy, actually.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's the Burgundy of America, you know. So they're very famous for for Pinot Noir. It's not a very old wine coring region. It started in 1965 with David Lett from Iri and Dick Erath, you know, from Erath Winery. They have been the first ones, they have been the pioneers there, and they uh they started Pinot Noir there. That became now the Pinot Noir region of America, Oregon, you know.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'm very curious. I want to go there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, it's a nice area. It's beautiful, it's really beautiful there, you know. And you can visit also the winery I saw. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Um, so this is now the Andante, so the second Andante means it's from the red clay, from the red volcanic clay, jawry, they call it, you know. And so uh two years in the barrel. Okay French oak, you know, but only 20% maximum 25%. Never that between 20 and 25%, just as it works out, you know. New oak, no chassis, chassin oak, which is a much I mean, this is the Royce Royce of the oak people or the barrel makers in in Burgundy, very difficult to get hold of it. They're very picky with the customers, you know. But they have the funny thing is you can produce 100% chassis oak and you don't see it, you know. Okay, and that is that is the that is I that is the reason I like it. I mean, Gantenwine does 100% uh Chassin new oak every year, you know. Okay, it's like a beautiful aromatic, you know. The aromatic is absolutely gorgeous, you know, and so you know it's now eight years old, you know. It's a fantastic wine, you know, for eight-year-old uh very nice, very Pinot, also very Pinot, but very old world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, very when you get it in the blight, yeah, and and we also look for um I mean uh that it is not too high because we see nowadays, you know, it's 13.5.
SPEAKER_03It's very much like burgundy, but you see now in the new world also, certainly in in Oregon often wines with 15.5. You know, yeah, it's not nice in that. And that is not Pinon Wa doesn't like reasoning also, but they have in common. They don't perform with higher alcohol better. No, they need lower alcohol.
SPEAKER_01I don't like reasoning, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and then yeah, so that is uh Oregon. So we we we we we yeah since uh 2009 we got then our own vineyards, you know. Yeah. 16 hectares. Uh 40 acres. 40 acres, yeah. It's 16 hectares. 16 acres. But we contract also from another 10 hectare. We rented we rented another quite a big, big 120,000 bottles, you know. 10,000 cases.
SPEAKER_01And you can visit it, I saw, so you can do tasting.
SPEAKER_03We rented another vineyard, a neighboring vineyard, uh uh a few miles down the road, uh uh, which is basically belongs to one of the oldest vineyards in the Chehen Mountain, Medici Vineyard, it's called. This is another eight hectare. And they and there is also the oldest Riesling block. There's one acre, 4,000 square meter of Riesling planted in 1976, which is old for them because everything started '65, you know. Um and so here we do a Riesling, a Apache Riesling. Oh, no. Uh GG. It's also two years. Uh basically it's GG reserve. It's two years in the barrel on the full yeast, and another four years in the bottle. It's exactly the same what we do with the GG reserve. Makes a huge difference. But you have also the G Christopher. Yeah, Jay Christopher was uh that is, I mean, it's two estates, no? Yeah. Apachenata, we do only the high-end stuff, no, which is, I mean, between $50 and $180 a bottle, you know. And Apachenata, uh, and then Jay Christopher is uh was a joint venture with uh with a friend of mine, you know. Uh he brought his label into this uh joint venture, you know. Uh I it's now 100% me because he retired four or five years ago. I bought his 10% share. And so and Jay Christopher is also uh from the Villamette Valley. We have uh different vineyards here, and so and this is a more, I mean, not entry level, you know. It starts with $30, you know, $30 to $80, you know, the wines here. These are about classic, also French winemaking, but 14 to 15 months in the barrel, you know, but also indigenous yeast, all without filtration, without finding, you know. Um, but different vineyards, you know, and different sourcing of the crabs, you know. Okay. Um, so yeah, it's these two two places. Apassinata is absolutely our peak, you know here. We're talking about altogether only um 2,000 cases, you know, something like sometimes even only 1,500 cases, you know. Uh Jay Christopher is rather uh 10,000 cases, you know. So this is the pinnacle, you know. And because of the rules, you can also say uh GG there. Yeah, well, not not not with a grave. No, no, no, no, no. Not with a grave. It's not only there's no trademark on JGs. It is a free mark, yeah. Uh and so that is allowed, you know. And so yeah, and then then you know, and that was uh that was then uh 2005 was the first Apache Now, and 2009 we bought the vineyards, you know, and all and and that was uh basically um Jay Christopher started 2009, you know, 2009, so Apachenado is older when we started this year. Um yeah, and then the newest little project, I have little side projects too. Oh wait, wait, I was sorry.
SPEAKER_01Do you sell that mostly in the US?
SPEAKER_03I mean all the US wines are mostly sold. The US are not they they don't care about.
SPEAKER_01Because there's a little bit in Europe also.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, sure. But the in the US the people don't care about export because they get much better prices in the US as the export, you know. Therefore, um the I mean, so the the energy of a lot of American wineries are not in exporting their wines, you know, because they it's a much easier market than market for them, you know. And so but sure we have some export with these wines. Yeah, of course. I bring always a container from from from Oregon here that we can distribute it out of here because the wine the wine spice 12 bottles and ship them over from the US. No, no.
SPEAKER_01But Weinhandel Arends sells it.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, you have some of it? Oh, I wasn't aware.
SPEAKER_01No, no, but I'm retired.
SPEAKER_03Ah yeah, and not Nathan, yeah. Okay, okay, I didn't know it. Oh wow, that's nice. Yeah, yeah. Good to know. Good to know, yeah, to know. So okay. And so, yeah, and then then uh so we have uh small uh other little projects, you know, like together with my good old friend in Australia, Peter Barry. Uh, we started 2016 because I asked him and said, Peter, I would love to do a wrestling in Australia. And he is the largest wrestling producer now in in Australia and the most yeah, acclaimed wrestling producer now. Okay. And so I said, I would love to do something because sometimes you know these Australian wrestlings have been they're bone dry, very limey, lots of citric acidity, and so and I always wondered myself, is this a terror thing or is it more winemaking thing? For me, it's sometimes a little bit too austere, the dry wrestlings from. And I said, Let would you let me do a reasoning, you know, as I want to do it, you know, in in in Australia. Uh would like to find out if if with another winemaking, if you could do a bit more kind of a rounder and not as uh whatever, you know? Um no criticism to what they're doing there, you know. And he said, Yeah, sure, great idea. Let's do it, you know. Whatever you want to do, let me know. We can do it. My two sons are absolutely behind it. But then Sam and um my two sons, you know, they they would like then to do an Aussie style wrestling here in Germany with me, you know. I said, Yeah, sure, great idea, you know. And so um so what I do there basically is exactly the same what I do with the GG reserve. I had been sending barrels over there from here, 3,000 in a barrel. And we do, we have we choose the vineyard, and then we do exactly the same thing two years in the barrel on the foodies, no batonage. And it became the first vintage, you know? Became immediately 2016 we didn't release because we want to do uh the first vintage, we said we keep the first vintage for the 10th anniversary, you know, that we can show also how the ageability is with it, you know, that we can release the 16 when it went with a 10th anniversary, that means next year. So 17 was the first vintage we released. The first vintage immediately the most expensive Australian Riesling in Australia. 100 Australian dollars, you know? Always sold out. It's a but it's only one barrel, it's uh what is that 300?
SPEAKER_01How much is an Australian dollar? Oh, I don't know. It's a euro? Sixty cents, I think.
SPEAKER_03No, no, it's much higher because uh it's now 70, yeah, 75 euro, something like that, you know.
SPEAKER_01Well, I don't have much experience with uh with Australian wrestlings. The only one is uh Grosset, but I don't like style, the style not totally not. You don't like it also you don't you can't say that. Rothernous comments. Well, I don't think the podcast will come to the to well, you never know. It's it's English, it's Australian.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I I I just said it's not a criticism. I just mentioned it. Everybody has his own style, yeah, and that is a style thing. I uh we have a different style with our GG Reserve, and I only wanted to find out if you introduced such a style to a completely different country, you know? Again to try it. And to try it how it is. Does it make, but it makes the same impact, you know? It's amazing. The wine we had. I just was in February in Australia and we tasted all the vintages from 16 to now. That's amazing. There's even the 16, it's totally fresh still, you know, and fantastic, you know. And I do the same with uh we do also such a wine with uh Chateau Saint-Michel. We call it Eroica XLC. Americans always like to these shortenings now. Uh what means XLC? Extended lease contact, you know. We call it also GG, you know. Um and I do it in Apache. So I really become an ambassador and like a missionary, you know, and going around the world, you know, and bringing this GG reserve style, you know, to other countries where which produce roosting to find out if this is also doing this huge impact, as I found out here in the Mosul, you know.
SPEAKER_01And is the VDP happy with that? Well now the VDP can I mean it's GG is I know, but are they happy with that?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. Why should how should I know this? Because they can't, I mean, it's not I didn't was not the first one who used GG for other wines. Yeah, a lot of people here, even the or here, our our uh cooperative have a silver uh gold file GG. I mean that that is embarrassing. I mean that is not embarrassing, that is uh very upsetting, you know. Yeah, yeah. And so that is not even a vineyard, you know, and so no. I mean, they can't have anything against if you make great wines and it has the highest accolades of the of the of the country, that they can say, uh, oh, that violates our GG idea, you know. Uh uh, you know, but if this cheap cooperative shit, you know, it's called GG. That is that is that is frightening, you know. It's not my name now. 300 cases which have the highest accolades, you know, and the highest price, yeah, that doesn't violate the GG idea. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And so from that point of view, yeah. Well, and then um the whole thing, I do this uh thing with uh with Peter Barry, Jim Barry company, you know, which is quite successful, you know. We have Armagh.
SPEAKER_01I like it's very manual to have heavy, heavy stuff Shira, why do you buy a bottle of Armagh?
SPEAKER_03It is not as heavy, and they also release it older, you know, and so I mean, I mean there's a much bigger, much bigger Shiraz as Armakh. Oh, yeah, of course. Much bigger. And it's quite with with age, it gets really nice elegance too, you know. And so, yeah. And so uh you know, then I yeah, and the last the last baby came. He has time enough, so why do we have to 2019? Um I was offered from a friend here, a Dutch friend, you know. Rhein Reinders. Yeah, uh he uh owns the Vieux Chateau de Pulini Morache, you know. Uh the Vieux Chateau, because there's also the Chateau de Pulli-Morache, which belongs to the Monte family. Uh, but this is the Vieux Chateau de Pillin-Morache, much older, built 1450. He owned half of it, you know, and had also the first refusal to the to the second half. And he was, yeah, we are good friends. He's a great guy, really wonderful man. Uh wonderful man. And he uh he's also a bit in the wine business, yeah, you know, and so you know, and he also big reasoning lover. And so he asked me if I want to, because it was offered to him, you know, because the old gentleman there he wanted to sell it, you know, but therefore that he has the first refusal, it was offered to him first, you know. And he asked me if I want to buy it, you know. And so, because you know, I like Burgundy, I like to stay in Burgundy. I used always to stay with him in his um place, you know, and so to have our own place, you know. And so very nice, very nice place. Yeah, and so, but after renovation, before that, it was pretty crappy, pretty crappy, you know, and so that was very kind of him, you know. And so um, yeah, and so we get in contact with with the with this uh with the owner, Monsieur Locker, also very nice gentleman, I must say. Um for French? Uh no, yeah. Well, he is barely third generation Spanish, you know. Oh, okay, that makes sense. And he no, he was very upset, you know, a very great guy, he can tell you a lot of stories, you know. And I said, I'm a little bit astonished, why are you not selling it to the neighbor? Everybody wants to have it here in Berlin, you know. But he was a bit upset about the people, you know. He said, Look, Ernest, he said, I'm third generation Spanish, you know. My grandfather came here from the uh because he had been fleeing the civil war in Spain and he was a stonemason. He came here, had been working as a stonemason. That was in the days in the 30s where where Burgundy was damn poor too, you know. And so I had a lot of um my my grand grandfather worked for a lot of estates and so, but they had not much money, you know, so they paid him in vineyards or a piece of a house or whatever, you know. And so he made a little bit of wealth, you know. Um and so but he said, But here, you know, ch third generation me and my sister were born, you know, in France, in Tulini, you know. But here in the village they still call us the Spanish, you know.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_03We are still not for them French, you know. And that's the reason all the property there was another property too. He had he sold only two foreigners, you know. He said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, so he sold the other thing to an English couple, you know. He sold me because there had been, I'm sure that the neighbor, I mean, he's uh a very nice gentleman from Soir Carillon, you know. I'm sure that he should bought it or two, you know. But for whatever reason, uh this Monsieur Lorca, you know, um he he was not happy with how they treated me. So I bought this uh uh this other half of the future depule marché, renovated it, you know, and we started with a friend of mine, you know, a good friend of mine, um from Bowen, you know, uh um Baduel Boucher, who is uh very well networked in in Burgundy. He did the whole the he did had been working for 12 years for uh Nicola Potel, you know, Roche de Balen. He basically built the Roche de Balen Negos business for Nico, you know. So he is very, very I mean, uh say uh experienced to do these kind of business, you know. And and he has a great network, and his father-in-law is Jacques Ladier, the head winemaker of Louis Jador. And this guy is an amazing guy. I just last week I was in Burgundy and we had Wednesday evening, we had uh we had a little bit of dinner together and a few bottles of wine, you know. It's fascinating to listen to a winemaker which has 45 years of experience, you know. And he told me about this very old winemaking because I said, you know, we have this, we have this group where we drink only burgundies 100 years back. And the funny thing is, the oldest burgundies are always the best and the freshest. And I don't know how they made the wine. They must have made different, there must be different winemaking. And he explained me that old winemaking, I was immediately said, Oh my god, I want to do this too now with the next vintage. And said to Manuel, possibly, possibly Jack can help me, you know, and so you know, also inspiring, you know. Yeah, he gave me a lot of new ideas, you know, and it's so fascinating to listen, even you know, I mean I'm also 35 years in the and I did it already in the very beginning, and now still listening to these old experienced guys, and you learn, and it's unbelievable fascinating. And so the whole thing, Mano and me came together, you know, and we started together, you know, as a you know, he's a partner in this business, uh little uh little negos business.
SPEAKER_01Perron de Mipon.
SPEAKER_03A Peron de Mipon, yeah, because I learned too, because I don't know the French wine law so much, because I learned that you are not allowed with a negos business to have chateau in the name and a name of a village, only if I would have my own vineyards. So if I would produce for my own vineyards as the domain, then I could call it domain uh or or uh chateau uh Vieux Chateau de Pilni Marche, but I have my Negos business. And so we choose the founder and the builder of the Vieux Chateau, was uh aristocratic gentleman. Uh his name was Peron de Mipon, you know. He was uh 1450, he built the he built the Vieux Chateau, so he's the builder and first owner of the Vieux Chateau. He was the mayor of uh Bone in these days. So I mean the whole thing is 500 years ago or so from that point of view. Um but it has a nice rel the name of the of the Lagos business has a nice relationship to the history of the of the view chateau, and so and we could get the trademark on it and so on. We produce now uh Bourgogne Blanc, Bourgogne Rouge. We have uh two uh white village, you know, a Merceau, certainly not a Pellini Maurocher yet, difficult to get fruit there. Uh we have a Merceau Village and Merceau Charme Premier Cru and first the whites, you know. Charme, Merceau, Merceau Village, Merceau Charme, Primi Cru and Merceau Perrier, which is the two best premiere cruise there, you know. And with red, we have uh Bourgogne Rouge, and then we have a Volnay Village and a Chevrolet Chambartin Village. We have now possibly the access to a Von Romane Village, you know, still a negotiation with this guy, and then we have two premius, um uh von Romanet les Sucho, you know, Premier Cru and uh Voujo Premiere Cru, you know, and so um from that point of view, and we try to work, and that is the whole idea of this uh of this negos business, very small, very tiny, but that we we only want to, and that's the reason it's slow and takes some time to find people who want to work with us long term, you know. I don't want to change all the time, you know, because I get a little bit here, a little bit there. I rather would like to work every year with the same producer, getting the same fruit, you know, the same wine, um, to have more continuity. And that makes it more difficult. That is very difficult because more to that's much. You know, Richard Boss. Yeah, he told me that it's very difficult. Yeah, but it is that's the reason we are still small, you know? Yeah, so they are willing to give us small uh quantities. Yeah, and that is barely the all my enterprises in so far in the world. And I always say, no, I don't do another one because I'm not getting younger, sadly. And so that's enough now. No new company, because I don't know, we are already up to nine or ten companies. I wanted to I don't want a new company, and what happened one and a half years ago, you know, we started our own, like in the US, our own importing company in China, you know, and it's uh Dr. Lozen International China, you know, the company.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I didn't want to do it, but sometimes I I wanted to ask you if we could make together a television uh thing with we go to on on wine trips and then we go visit uh winemakers and so on. And we want to do that for television. Yeah, I want to do that with you.
SPEAKER_03Uh when I always said, I don't want to do have another enterprise. But I said, no, finally, this this Chinese importing company that's the last thing now, you know. Hopefully, and my wife always said, Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Okay, it's a it's a challenging word. I I love the wine business, you know. I really love the wine business. It's a challenging, I mean to share business. I love I love this shit, you know. I mean, that's great, you know, and so you know, and that is yeah, well, so keep on tracking. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But the French wine, eh? Is it all for the inland, yeah? Is it for the inland market or what you a French market?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. No, it's all export. I mean, Burgundy is 90% exported, you know. I'm sorry, I mean, whole Burgundy is an export uh export product, you know.
SPEAKER_01Always. Do you want to try to sell it in Germany or no? We sell it already.
SPEAKER_03We sell it already to uh we as I said, we are 90 countries. We are 90 countries around the world and we're selling it already to 18 or 20. I mean, you can't do it in two years, you can't have it a million or something. No, no, no, no, no, of course not. So yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, I have the distribution anyway. Yeah. So it makes sense if I produce a wine that I give it into our distribution channel, you know?
SPEAKER_01Talking about distribution, you're not only doing your own wines in the US, you also have other people.
SPEAKER_03No, well that's an importing, it's an importing company.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, but you were with you were with Clemens Bush, with Oliver Haag, you were from Silicon. Silicon.
SPEAKER_03Uh Wittmann.
SPEAKER_01Wittmann. Robert Weil.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Guntenbein. Uh-huh. Uh we we have been the sole agent of uh of uh uh Nicola Potel, Hochle Balen and Amanda Balen. Okay. Where we are still the uh US market of Peter Barry, yeah, but but they're we the importer in the US market. I can't sell it somewhere else where I'm not the sole agent, you know. So we have only uh we are sole agent uh and importer for these wines, you know. I can't sell it to other countries where I don't have importing companies. No, no, no, no, of course I don't know. I I know that I know that. So yeah, yeah. We have we yeah, sure. But as an this uh importer, then sure you use your network to uh auto-distribute other wines, you know. And so yeah, yeah, it makes sense, huh? Okay, makes it more challenging now because it's mostly German wines, you know, yeah, with uh tariffs, you know. Australia is easier, it's only 10%, you know. So we already have been talking to to uh uh Peter Barry, Jim Barry. Um so they said, oh, we are thanks god only affected by 10% tariff. That is much easier to to balance this out, you know. Yeah, Germany, 20%, France too, you know. Um I mean Gunthermin, okay. They I think Switzerland for whatever reason, this little country, Switzerland, has to pay 38 or what percent tariff, you know. I don't know. So but we don't know. So I mean Gunther mining, which is already super expensive, you know, 38% is challenging. We will see. You know, this is anyway, we we we are faced to to this bullshit, you know. And I think it's we're making far too much words about it, you know. Yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_01No, well, Ernie, thank you very much. Yeah, so it was the second button.
SPEAKER_03We said when next year we sit together when I have my next new company somewhere around an Uruguay or whatever.
SPEAKER_01I I thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much for everything and so on. And um, it was very helpful, it was very uh interesting, of course.
SPEAKER_03Um yes, we learned a lot, we learned a lot, and thank you very much for that. Another great American saying, you know, it's not to keep on tracking on me. I love this saying another day, another dollar.
SPEAKER_00Keep it that way. Okay, keep it that way.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, Marcel. Thank you very much, thank you, Mama. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
