For the Love of Creatives: Unlocking the Power of Community
Imagine a space where your creative spark is truly seen, a community where people get you. That’s what Maddox and Dwight bring each week on For the Love of Creatives. As your hosts and “connections and community guys,” they dive into conversations that bridge the gap from solo journeys to powerful collaborations, transforming “me” into “we.”
In each episode, explore a variety of engaging formats, from insightful dialogues between Maddox and Dwight to conversations with everyday creatives who’ve overcome challenges to reach new heights. You’ll meet fellow artists, innovators, and heart-centered creators sharing their stories, and together, we’ll discover what it means to create, collaborate, and co-elevate.
Tune in, share, and join us each week as we celebrate the magic of community-driven creativity.
For the Love of Creatives: Unlocking the Power of Community
#012: Redefining Identity Through Storytelling: Jocelyn Tatum's Path to Self-Discovery and Community Connection
Ever wondered how stepping away from conventional roles could redefine your identity? Join us as Jocelyn Tatum, a lifelong journalist and educator, shares her journey of self-discovery and professional evolution. From journalism to teaching to launching a women’s magazine, she reveals how each step uniquely prepared her for her creative path. Her insights highlight storytelling’s profound impact on both career and personal growth.
We discuss the courage needed to share personal stories and their transformative power, especially in prisons and abuse shelters. Jocelyn’s deep understanding of her audience led her toward narrative journalism and storytelling. She also shares her vision for a community-centered bookstore, blending journalism’s authenticity with business while fostering genuine connections.
Exploring identity and self-growth, we examine embracing multiplicity and storytelling’s healing power. Jocelyn reflects on navigating societal expectations, toxic relationships, and self-love. The episode closes with a heartfelt discussion on revisiting our younger selves, offering wisdom, and building a future shaped by perseverance, vulnerability, and a nurturing community.
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For the Love of Creatives Community
similarly, it's just occurred to me. It was like wait a second, I wasn't, I wasn't supposed to fit in, I wasn't meant to. You know, it was like that was the point, like that. That's been so. Uh, it's felt so good to do it's's liberating, isn't it? Yeah, it's like we weren't meant to fit in some of these spaces, you know, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:Hello, this is Maddox.
Speaker 3:And this is Dwight. We're the Connections and Community guys and you're listening to.
Speaker 2:The For the Love of Creatives podcast. I stuttered, didn't I?
Speaker 3:It's quite all right. Today we're joined by our featured guest, Jocelyn Tatum.
Speaker 1:Hi, nice to meet y'all. Good to see y'all again.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the podcast, jocelyn. We're really excited to have you here and really excited for you to share your story, because I think it's going to be something that our audience is going to really love listening to, based on the conversation. Based on the conversation. So I'll say, jocelyn and Dwight and I we met at a birthday party a couple of weeks ago and after some conversation at the birthday party, we just realized that Jocelyn is like an ideal candidate, you know, for being a featured guest. And so here we are, we invited, and she jumped up and down and said yes, absolutely. And I understand from her that this is pretty much the first time that she's really shared her story publicly. I think that asking her to share a story has kind of caused her to really reflect. But I'll let her tell you about that. Jocelyn, I'm going to pass it over to you and let you tell our audience just a little bit about who you are and what you're up to, and then we'll go from there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so you know back kind of relates to why I haven't shared my story much. I'm a lifelong journalist and we are told to stay out of the way we are not. You know we can't use value loaded terms. I've been asked to speak quite a bit, but on news writing or magazine writing, and my story is never really involved in that. So it's kind of fun to. I'm not allowed to usually talk about me, so this is kind of fun to tell my story a little bit.
Speaker 1:So I am a journalist, I am an editor, I am a. I've been a college educator also most of my life. I kind of stepped away from that because you know the whole adage when you're teaching, you're not doing, you're teaching other people to do your dream, and so it was kind of something I fell into when I was. I left the newsroom to move back home to Texas and was going to work in the newsrooms here. But it was 2008 when there wasn't anyone was hiring, and so I was like I'll just teach college for a semester.
Speaker 1:I already had a master's in narrative journalism, which is also known as creative long form creative nonfiction, and so I had the ability to teach, and so it ended up being a 12-year journey, while I was a freelance journalist on the side and I've also launched a women's magazine with someone else owned it, but I was the executive editor and built the magazine for her and that was beautiful and lovely. And more recently, yeah, I've been coaching and mentoring, and so that's a little bit about me. Sixth generation Texan, but have lived all over the world.
Speaker 2:I just love the texture that you're building into the story. Already you have a broad background.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a little all over the place, but at first it was concerning to me.
Speaker 1:While I was living my life at the time, jumping all over the place, I was like, what does teaching have to do with my journalism career? I want to focus on my journalism career and I was teaching news writing, which kept my mind fresh, and then I was teaching media literacy, which included media ethics, media economics, media law, and so it was all the research for the lectures. And then I was also running student publications for the district, so I was helping manage young reporters and aspiring journalists, and so it was like still kept my mind fresh, but I was like teaching is just gonna like put a big hole in my career. But then when I look, you know, as we age and we look back, we start to see like, oh my gosh, all of it makes sense. It all absolutely makes sense to like where I'm supposed to be and what I'm doing now and all of it's lending to the work that I want to do in, you know, as a creative in the community.
Speaker 1:I never called myself a creative until recently.
Speaker 2:I absolutely love that. You know when, that moment when you realized all that jumping around and all those things that you did that you didn't think were related to much, all came into vision. I have a similar experience where I was, you know, in the beauty industry for 40 years and I had side hustles that were all over the map and then one day, when it started to come into focus, it was like, oh my gosh, this has been, you've been training for something your whole life and didn't realize it. Isn't that powerful.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love the way you said that, absolutely. You've been training for something your whole life and every just like a news story, every single bit of it adds value to the thesis of the story. Right, like every single piece. I always think of it as connect the dots, the thesis of the story. Right, like every single piece I always think of as connect the dots. You know, like when you're drawing the lines to make the picture, towards the end of the picture you start to see what the thing is going to make out like oh, it's a puppy or it's a constellation. You know it's kind of cool. So we can look back and see, like everything, every moment, even the heartaches, the resume gaps, you know they all absolutely added value to where we're going next.
Speaker 3:That's amazing Now, when you, as you look back and you're able to appreciate the masterpiece that has become the life that you're leaning into. What were the first hints that you were headed in the direction of being able to share stories, to have an interest in journalism?
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting Another seemingly disconnected part of my life. I was a philosophy major studying ancient. I loved studying ancient philosophy and ancient wisdom and at one point I was living in Rome studying great tragedies and comedies. And then we went to Greece for 10 days to kind of focus on that part and we were studying ancient art and architecture and I was just like wow, like the human story is universal and it's never changed.
Speaker 1:You hear these stories about these ancient Greek gods, you know, and their love stories sound very similar to my at the time 21-year-old self's issues. And so I was like how can I, you know? And I was kind of teased a little bit by like how useless that degree was and how I was like good job, jocelyn, you can now critically think. And I was like well, that's more valuable than you think these days. But I was like how can I? It's, it is very like what do you? What would I get a job in doing that, you know? So it was like human nature and story is so important for the healing of humanity and for connecting people and it helps me feel less alone.
Speaker 1:You know, I had a pretty, pretty dark childhood and so it. Books saved me, stories saved me. And so it was like, wow, how can I, how can I make this mundane, you know like a mundane practice, and make this digestible and earthly and not like stuck in the heavens? And I was like, oh, journalism. And so I ended up going from that to get a master's in journalism and so that's where I started being drawn to it, and I ended up immediately met with a mentor there who became still as a mentor after 20 years. We were emailing last week. He was a bureau chief, a Wall Street Journal bureau chief for Mexico City, chicago, new York, and his big thing was narratives in journalism, which is a kind of a unique practice. And it's like how can you use creative and literary devices in nonfiction news writing to connect people and to get people to care about the subjects? And I was like, oh my gosh, now my philosophy degree is making sense, you know, with the emphasis in literature and all that. So that's, that's where it started.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's beautiful and I love the tie-in of how you were connected to your mentor and I know that in being in a position where you were.
Speaker 1:But in being in a position where you were educating, you've probably been able to pay that forward. Yes, yeah, you know, I never. I think for me, I never could have guessed this. It's funny I was kind of I.
Speaker 1:I never would wanted to be a teacher, and so when I did it, I never thought I would love it as much as I did to be a teacher, and so when I did it, I never thought I would love it as much as I did. And I think it was because part of me knew, like these students aren't going to remember probably 90% of what I'm teaching them, but I knew that they would remember how they felt in my class and and that it was so important for me to know that at least one person on the it doesn't take much right that one person cared. One person cared about my heart, my success, and so if I was that one person, or if I was the third person in their life, just to let them know that I deeply cared about them and their success and that I would always be there for them, and so that was the thing about teaching that I never thought would happen. The thing about teaching that I never thought would happen.
Speaker 2:That is so beautiful, jocelyn. I mean, I got cold chills right now. It's just wow, I'm in awe. That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:So let's start with the here and now. You know, when you and I spoke at the birthday party, you shared a little bit. I want to hear all the juicy stuff you shared a little bit about a dream that you have and a concept that you have begin to flesh out and formulate. So please take us there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, let's see if I can do this. It's a little all over the place, no, but I've really been thinking about it a lot and kind of building the plane as it takes off, but it just like occurred to me. You know, one of the things that I've learned about journalism is that there's all this gatekeeping, right, there's like the journalist has to pick up the story and then they have to pitch it to the editor and the editor might turn it down, and then there's like the editor might keep it, but then more ad space sells, so the new story gets dropped. Or there's a bigger story that comes in. There's just um, or the advertisers don't agree with the content of this. There's all this gatekeeping.
Speaker 1:And so I was like you know, I think for me in my healing journey recently I have been journaling about my life. You trying to reflect on like pieces of my story and just to write my own story for the first time has been so powerful. In so many ways. It's just healing, it's kind of reflective, it integrates parts of my life that I didn't even um realize, I hadn't even reflected on or integrated. And so I was like how can I bring all of this experience of caring, of teaching, of news writing, of into into the world and bring that to others. And so part of like when we have a when we write, it's like another way of having a voice when we write our story. So it was like how can I like help people understand, have access to their voice in a different way through, like the writing process, and kind of bring it out of the ivory tower into these kind of writing workshops, slash, healing, storytelling circles? So it sounds kind of similar to what you all are doing a little bit, but bringing people together in um, in a circle, and maybe we have a topic and then we tell our story and we share.
Speaker 1:And I think you know maddox you had mentioned like tell your story first, and I think that's so important. It's like share, you know, breaking, kind of breaking the ice and sharing a bit of my story. So then they and I I've never had an issue with being vulnerable or telling people kind of the more unsavory parts of my life and my story, because the part is as a journalist, that's how you get you connect with your sources. It's not a I don't want to say it sounds manipulative when I say that, but it's just it's genuinely. It's like you're going to tell me something about how you survived the Rwandan genocide in 1994. I'm I'm happy to cry with you and share part of my story too, you know. So if we could do that in circle.
Speaker 1:And then I just recently had the idea of bringing this into prisons, but just teaching them how to write their story and then kind of workshop it with them and make it easy and accessible, let them know that it's so doable, but then, like, pull it together in a sort of publication, whether it's a collection of essays in a magazine or or a book.
Speaker 1:And so because journalists don't have access to inmates, we can't very, we know very little about what goes on in there. And so, like, if you know, that would be like one example, going into women's abuse shelters or just into a bookstore or coffee shop, you know, but getting that kind of removing that gatekeeping in journalism and getting a first person account of the news or of just things that are going on in the world. So that's kind of a part of what I'm working towards right now, and there's a lot of other parts to that. So let me know if I'm going, if I'm rambling, but there's, it's, it's. I'm still kind of like formulating it, but I've already started doing it for the last year. There's a little bit of what I've already started doing.
Speaker 3:Oh, it sounds so powerful, as you share, that I can't help but think of what it is for people to feel seen, and it's when people are exposed to those parts of ourselves that may be a little uncomfortable, that you can see, that they can see themselves and they open up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just kind of looking at someone and saying that your story matters and it absolutely matters because it is a thread in the tapestry of life and without that one thread none of the tapestry could be held together, and that when people feel that and hear that, they're just like, really I matter, my story matters.
Speaker 3:And it's so powerful just to just to feel like someone really gets you and understands.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, our stories are the one thing that connect one heart to another, you know, and, and it just it, it connects us in a way that nothing else really can. You know, you made reference to other a moment ago about I don't remember, I can't say how you word it, but it was like building a plane as it takes off.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love that because, oh my God, does it take courage to do that, or what. I feel like we're. I didn't have the language for it, I do now. Thank you so much because I feel like we're doing the same thing. We're. We're building a plane as it takes off and, um, we don't know whether we don't know whether it's going to get off the runway or not, and the only way you can find out is by doing it.
Speaker 1:And, forgive me, I have all these teaching writing analogies, but it's kind of like you won't know what the paragraph is going to look like until you write the first sentence, right? So you're kind of discovering the story and you're doing the research for the story. You have to by doing it, by living it.
Speaker 2:You know research in real time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, I think sometimes that's where creatives get stuck right, as we think that we a have to do it alone and be that we have to have it all figured out. And we don't we, none of us do, we can just um, I think you know, also at Marissa's party I ran in her boss who had mentioned, um, he works in the business school right at the local university and he was like a business plan, don't do that. I was like what I was like and he helps, uh, creative entrepreneurs um build their business. And so I was like that's kind of refreshing, because business plans just they're paralyzing to me, they're so boring.
Speaker 2:You know, we worked on a business plan, formulated something that was fairly solid, but after we wrote it all out we set it aside and haven't reflected on it since then. It is kind of boring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's like we're in the university of life, right, forgive the cliche, but like we get to kind of take the next creative, grounded action, take the next step and then the next step unfolds. It's almost like in that heart led living right, like that intuitively guided living. It's like the steps just to kind of appear below your feet and it takes a lot of deep trust.
Speaker 2:You iterate, you make mistakes and you iterate again. You pivot when you need to, yeah, but the main thing is you just have to keep going. Dwight, did you have something you were going to say? I thought I heard you try to get a word in edgewise there, dwight did you have something you were going to say?
Speaker 3:I thought I heard you try to get a word in edgewise there. No, I was just talking about how all of our efforts to try to formalize things and to make it so that we had a business plan of sorts, we eventually wised up and steered toward a true north of understanding who it was that we served and what it was that we ultimately saw as important, and that's that's really guided our decisions, I'd say for the last year or two, yes, and that is actually important.
Speaker 1:Another writing analogy is like before you write the story, you do need to know who your audience is like you, who you're writing to like what publication and who is it geared to.
Speaker 2:So that came about the opposite of the way you would think it would. You know, we didn't really identify who we served, they just showed up. You know, it was just one day we were noticing creative people just flocking around us and it was kind of like our audience picked us instead of us picking the audience. We were like all of a sudden, one day this light bulb went off and we were going in kind of a different direction and we had this long talk and went. You know what? It's right there, you know, and we know where to find that audience and we're really drawn to that audience. And we're really drawn to that audience and what it and they're drawn to us. We abandoned where we were going and shifted, rebranded everything, and this was only what Dwight, two months ago, three months ago, yeah, it's been.
Speaker 3:it's been in the works. I'd say maybe, maybe a little more like four, but yeah, a lot of, a lot of parts. The rebranding was painful because we had a lot of the collateral for the old stuff.
Speaker 2:And we still come across it, all the artwork and yeah.
Speaker 1:But you were open to the story changing which is so valuable.
Speaker 2:Yes, I just put an email out to our audience and said we're pivoting and it's going to cause us to do a complete rebrand. So we appreciate your patience while we go through that.
Speaker 1:I mean that's, it's like, and you know any artist has to be, not has to be. I don't want to say like that, but you know we need, we have to be open to the art changing or to, or maybe the draft of the story isn't working, so we discard it and we have to be willing to start over and that's how you get the best. I guess like product, the best painting, the best writing is we. That's what they. I mean, they taught us that in graduate school. It's like you have to be willing to the story changing. Jocelyn, you went into this reporting, researching, and you thought that it was going to be this and you can't. You have to throw all the old notes away, otherwise you're going to miss the actual story. And I was like but all this work, you know, I just I've never wasted analogies this much.
Speaker 1:This is funny.
Speaker 2:I'm like teaching a writing class on accident, but um so is there more to tell more details about the current, the dream, the unfolding, unfolding the plane that's taken off as you're building it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so it's interesting because it did start a little bit different. And I'm still doing this, but it's helping me. You know I'm a single mom, so it's helping me pay the bills this portion of it, because the other one I haven't figured out how to turn that into a stream of revenue out, how to turn that into a um, a revenue stream of revenue. But um is. You know, the local university has asked me to speak to their strategic communications department once a year for like the last seven years about um, creative journalism, non, you know, creative nonfiction, narrative journalism they call it, there's like five different names for it. But and to their strategic communications is advertising, public relations and marketing. And I think I'm missing another piece to it. But and how the that type of journalism would add value to them putting together like writing for their clients. And and then I was like, oh, why don't I do that? You know, advertising and public relations are so expensive and not as authentic. You know, like the type of, you know, journalists when they're doing their job, well, they are. It's pure content, right, it's like it's ideally unbiased, it's ideally objective and it's also compelling and it's engaging and it's interesting and educational. And so, like what if I could do that for the business world somehow like skip and collaborate with their PR people? So, and it's still like help, so it's basically helping nonprofits and businesses also find their voice and be seen in the world in a more authentic way. So, like, I have a couple of clients, like a CEO, a couple of CEOs I'm working with now. I'm writing their like it's an in-depth news profile, feature news profile on them and their company and then they're using that for their website or all those others. So that's been kind of cool to do that with.
Speaker 1:And then in the business world, in the realm, trying to think of what else I like there's a nonprofit I'm helping for next to nothing right now to do that for their story, Like how would a journalist approach? How, and then kind of connect I call it a narrative strategy, so how to connect them to local media outlets. And then I also want to have a bookstore. And so I want to have a bookstore that's like a little lighthouse in the community, that's like an event space and I want to have these writing workshops like events at the bookstore space, but also like have guest speakers come in and then from that and this. Is this actually something kind of similar out there? This is where I got all of these ideas, but I want the book space to also like in from these storytelling circles.
Speaker 1:Right, I'll like curate a publication of some sort because I love magazines and that's kind of where I've always been at home is just magazine writing and the design and the paper and um. But I was at Marfa, texas, a few years ago and they, um, there's this place called the Sentinel and it's this beautiful coffee shop, um slash event space and they are named after the local newspaper which was closing, and the New York times. I actually profiled this as a creative revenue model for um spaces, um and publications and um, yeah, and so it was. The newspaper was folding and they decided to, uh, buy the newspaper and not fund it with ads anymore but fund it with, like any sort of revenue that came in from the space, and so I was like I can do, do that where I'm from and somehow bring it home.
Speaker 2:I think you're definitely onto something really big. My intuition is just speaking very loudly right now that yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I definitely want to be involved in something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean just like the, just there's, I think, just like a safe lighthouse space right when we can sit and share, and in full disclosure. A lot of this is inspired by my background in recovery. Um, I quit drinking six years ago.
Speaker 3:Oh, congratulations.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you. It's been a journey. It runs in the family. My dad warned me and I was like no, it skips a generation. But it definitely was impacting my life in the worst way, and so when I quit drinking I was encouraged to join AA circles. I was like that's not really for me, I don't need that, and they're like it's not really about drinking or addiction so much, it's about connection, you know. And so I remember having to watch a little Ted talk about the. They say the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, the opposite of addiction is connection.
Speaker 2:And community.
Speaker 1:And community, yeah, and so like, and you just sit in circle with people and you've got what three to five minutes to share a part of your story, based on whatever topic we're talking. You can go off topic if you want, whatever you need for that day. But just connecting with other people in that way, like in such a vulnerable way, like tell you know when you're in recovery rooms you're sharing things that your deepest, darkest secrets sometimes, and no one's judging you and everyone's, and you're uplifting and healing other people on that environment. And it's like how powerful would it be to kind of again like bring that out of that environment into, like the secular, mundane space?
Speaker 2:Circles are magical in so many ways, especially if they're well led.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's my fear. It's like I don't know how to lead a circle.
Speaker 2:So that's why I'm kind of like that's my next, we can help you with that?
Speaker 1:Yes, I need help with that.
Speaker 3:We're going to talk about a possible collaboration later on, okay, and thankfully you've got so many models to work from, because I look at how you. All you have to do is look at what's done in with indigenous peoples, when a great example is their approach to justice. You know, for them it's not about crime and punishment. It's about knowing, when people fall astray, that they have a chance to be redeemed, and we can learn a lot from that kind of value of human life and contribution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just that being rehabilitated and understanding that a lot of times crime either comes from a mental health issue or a sense, a place of misinformation or hurt, you know, and the fact that we skipped that step in our justice system here.
Speaker 2:Unhealed trauma. Yes, so take us back to the very beginning. I would love to know when did you know that you were drawn to creative stuff? How did creativity show up in your life in the very early stages?
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know. See, it's funny, I never would have thought of myself as a creative person until recently. But because I have this twin sister who we're opposite, twins right, and I'm the left brain twin and she's the right brain twin and she's her hair's dark, her skin's beautiful olive color, she looks almost Italian and she's the wild creative, like the right brain. And I'm like you know, I go to school, I make straight A's, I loved math, I loved science, you know, and I studied, you know, news writing, which is not creative. I said that it is very creative, I'm realizing, especially the type I practice. But I did win a lot of art awards as a kid and I love to color in the lines she colored out of the lines. It's just two different types of creative, right? But I never really saw that until recently. Um and um, yeah, so as a, as a child, I, I just um, I loved art, but I never, yeah, I never saw myself as a creative cause. I was comparing myself to her.
Speaker 2:You know from where I'm standing. You are highly creative.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's funny how parents kind of can do that to kids, right, they're like kind of put you in a box. It's funny how parents kind of can do that to kids, right, they're like kind of put you in a box. Like Jocelyn's the left brain grounded one, lauren's the wild, creative one, jocelyn's the introvert, lauren's the extrovert, you know like and. But what happens is like what if we're both? And you know like what if we can be a tomboy and a girly girl? Like why do we have to be one or the other? Um, which was that was kind of my story as a kid. I was always the tomboy, but I was confused because I also was not into sports. I was into gymnastics and horseback riding. So it was like I'm confused, but now you know, learning that we can be all of the above.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that and it's not an. It's an. And I love that and it's not an.
Speaker 1:and it's an, and I love that, like yes and but yeah, my journey as a kid you know I hate to say this, but I'm sure this is probably true for a lot of people is that I think all the pain I experienced, the things that we kind of endured in our lives, have also kind of become our purpose, right? Yes, yeah, absolutely yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1:And it's like sometimes there was this I don't think it was a masterclass that notes that a friend shared with me. So this is again playing telephone, but I've heard this before. When you're trying to figure out what your purpose is in life, ask yourself what breaks your heart the most about the world. And for me, there was a lot of neglect in my childhood, there was a lot of abandonment, and so it was. I lived so much just being unseen and I was like I want to make sure people are seen. I don't care what what that looks like if that's through telling their story, you know, and so that was. I think that has been my biggest. My pain has been my biggest creative inspiration, and I know I'm not unique in that, but that's pretty much where I've been led.
Speaker 2:I worked with a marketing guru at one point coach that approached it from a very spiritual place, which is kind of odd marketing and spirit. But one of the things he said to me that I've never forgotten and it rang true the minute he said it it was like, oh my God, yes, he said, the people that you are most suited to have the biggest impact with are the people who have experienced the same trauma that you have.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That our pain becomes our purpose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel, like you know, in storytelling, I feel like what I've started to notice was that there's this kind of we all have like unique expressions of we're, all unique expressions of universe or whatever, but all have like unique expressions of we're all unique expressions of universe or whatever. But we also have unique expressions of pain. But underneath that, our kind of painful experience, there's almost like this river of, like a common thread in all of our hurts that I always, through writing, wanted to bring out Like're. So there's this division right more now than ever, but I've seen it my whole life where there's like the other, the other person they're separate from me, but if we kind of can like, whenever we read someone's story or learn someone's story, we realize that, like, that pain is not a whole lot different from my pain and if that is illustrated well through writing that we can maybe stop pointing fingers so much.
Speaker 1:You know, right now I'm dealing with a very toxic, abusive ex-boyfriend that has been separated for seven months. But you know, they call it the holiday Hoover is what I'm just learning about, but yesterday, I don't know, christmas night they call it the holiday Hoover is what I'm just learning about, but yesterday or no. Christmas night I got a bunch of devastating emails, just kind of this weird out of nowhere after two months launch of things, and I just it just really occurred to me like his pain is not a whole lot different from my pain. He's acting out of desperation, not that I need to jump to compassion too fast, but it helps me. Let go and move on.
Speaker 2:And yeah, when you referred to the holiday hoover, were you meaning that you tend to get sucked back in?
Speaker 1:Well, it's kind of it's typical. So I'm kind of also an expert of like abuse cycles. I've just studied them my whole life to try and make sense of some things in my life and the things I'm. But one of the abuse cycle kind of patterns is they hoover you back, they abuse you and then they hoover you back in. Then there's the honeymoon phase and then they abuse you and hoover you back in. So it's kind of a circle that just happens.
Speaker 2:So it's like a vacuum clip You're getting you back in. So it's kind of a circle that just happens. So it's like a vacuum clip You're getting sucked back in.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's a term that a lot of these kind of people use that research, narcissistic kind of abuse, psychological abuse, emotional abuse but yeah, it's a. It's like a hoovering, sucking you back in, and they'll pick important days like birthdays, holidays to to do it because they're they're missing you, they need their supply, kind of like energetic vampires, and so I just kind of be prepared for that. But my biggest life mission is to help. One of them is to help people understand what that looks like and that they're not alone, because that has also been a big part of my story.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And does working with others make it easier for you as you deal with the holiday, hoover and the like in your own personal life?
Speaker 1:yeah. So you know, for me, like um, writing is how I make sense of the world and so in this particular case, um, so my therapist this is kind of a creative process I'm in the middle of because I still write and so she, my therapist, said write a letter to the new girlfriend, but don't give it to her, just like a pretend, like warning her of all the things to expect and what's going to happen. And then I have 12 pages single spaced, type to later. I was like this is one of the most powerful things I've ever written. I was like this needs to be published and you know, and that again is me sharing my story and my journey.
Speaker 1:But also I realized in the top I put a writer's note this is a letter to any person enduring psychological manipulation or abuse, anytime they're in, whether it's a system, whether it's a workplace, a religion, a government system, whatever it is, anytime there's someone that's words and actions aren't matching, they're manipulating you and your reality is being distorted and broken by this manipulative system. So it was like this letter isn't just to the new girlfriend, this letter is to like any person who's confused about what they're experiencing in a work environment that's, or any environment that's not savory, I guess. So that's kind of like a way I'm using writing to, yeah, to help others and work with others in that sense different from the writing workshops, but I do want to have writing workshops around psychological abuse.
Speaker 3:Beautiful so.
Speaker 2:I'd like to hear a little bit about. You know you have a rich story, a rich journey, lots of really fabulous stuff that you've done. Let's talk challenges. What's been the hard stuff during that journey, the things that you found your way to the other side of?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I think the biggest one you know, back to the and this is really up until the last six months, this has been my whole life, but I think I'm finally breaking out of that mold is just the neglect and the emotional. I think neglect, emotional abuse and psychological abuse that's been. It shows up in every part of my life which makes me think I'm there's a lesson I'm not learning here, like what's going on, and so the way I've overcome that is, I'm realizing now, looking back on my whole life and reflecting and through writing, is that it's just been a journey to self-love and self-worth and understanding how we can validate ourselves and our own experiences. That is the biggest weapon we can have against any of these interpersonal relationships or workplace whatever systems that are taking our power away. When something's taking our power away, when something's taking our power away, we're also giving our power away, you know.
Speaker 1:And so there's like this kind of takes two to tango dance situation, and sometimes it's unwittingly right Like we're not. It's I don't. I don't realize I'm doing it, but when I've spent my life trying to get these unhealed, you know people who are not very self-aware, living out their wounds unconsciously, trying to get them to validate my worth is just inviting the abuse right, and so it's like the biggest thing I think I've overcome is just absolute beautiful, beaming self-love. In all the ways I am okay, no matter who leaves me or who says something to me, or who does or doesn't like me.
Speaker 2:You know this was a little bit of our conversation at the birthday party Heavy conversation for a birthday party. I know and I remember you talked about the neglect and the abuse and I remember saying to you you know, people, experiences in life are a mirror. You know those experiences are reflecting back to you, back to you, and oftentimes that shows up in the form of you perhaps neglected yourself or perhaps abused yourself and when these other people saw you do that, they thought it was okay. They thought it was okay to do it too.
Speaker 1:It's almost like an easy target, it's like an invitation. They can read your energy pretty well. It's like vampires smell blood, you know, and and and if we are, if I you know me being struggling with self um, self-esteem, confidence issues, you know they sense that and they just swoop right in and like how can I? What's, what's that, what's that phrase Like, if you don't know who you are, the world will tell you. So I think that's the biggest thing is like I'm learning who I am, and it's truly through writing my own story I've written hundreds of pages in the last six months of my own story, trying and really discovering the woman that I am and the person that I am and that has helped me. It's almost like a strong foundation, like a shield against these things.
Speaker 2:If you were going to share just a sentence or two words of wisdom for how to love yourself, what would that be?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I know there's all these affirmations out there, I know there's all these affirmations out there, but for me it's just like doing, doing little things for myself. So like I take myself on these long, beautiful walks and, um, I take, I've cooked myself dinner, I'll take myself to the movies, and I know it's not like forever that I'm doing this. This is I know. I think I had a friend bring it up recently. She's like, you know, being alone all the time. Friend bring it up recently, she's like being alone all the time isn't necessarily the point, john, it's like I know, but it's like being okay with being alone.
Speaker 2:It's like oh, you're courting yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like not abandoning myself when things get hard. I think one of the most powerful things I did recently, when I had another I don't know if you call it energetic attack or whatever from the ex, is, I just crumbled to the floor and I said Jocelyn, I'm not leaving you, I'm not going to leave you in the middle of this, I'm not going to. You know, as a kid, if I cried, it was like go to your room. That's weird, what is wrong with you? And so it's like how can I show up for myself when I'm not the person I think I should be in that moment? Not strong enough, not, you know, happy enough or whatever. Like just sitting with myself in all of it in ways that no one else ever has, and it's been so powerful.
Speaker 3:Wow, I can hear how you're having a lot of moments of discovering your own self-worth and having all of this clarity around how you were trying to deal with feeling abandoned and neglected. How has that informed what it is you're modeling for your child?
Speaker 1:informed what it is you're modeling for your child. Oh my, um, my son is is. He is one of the neatest people I have ever met. I always joke I'm going to be just like him when I grow up. I've, I mean, like completely evolved past me as a human and I think it's just that I have taught him that you know just to trust that voice that says this doesn't feel good. And he does have a friend that has mastered the art of manipulation at six years old. My son's now almost 13, but they're still friends. And watching my son just create boundaries with him and know that that's not. Whatever comes at him is not about I'm like did that hurt your feelings? Are you okay? He's like that wasn't about me, mom. I was like what? I wouldn't be like that when I was his age, or even now.
Speaker 2:Definitely an evolved soul.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's just an old old soul and he's always, you know they'll be asleep over with five of his best friends and he wasn't included. He's like I'm fine, it wasn't about me. And it's like I was like wow, okay, and I'm seeing how kind of what I've been through has been. I think he was born that way. But I will take a little credit that I've imparted maybe some of my journey for him and shared some of the wisdom I picked up with him.
Speaker 3:No doubt.
Speaker 2:So we always, in every episode, kind of draw this in, because this is the theme of the podcast and that is, in all this journey and everything you've experienced, how has community shown up in that? How has it played a role in your creative journey, good or bad?
Speaker 1:Oh, so good or bad. I mean, let's see, I do find that this new kind of journey, since I left the college in 2021, and I did edit, was an editor for a local news organization for a little while and left that and I find it to be kind of a solitary experience, you know, after being so used to working, like in buildings, with people and nine to five, um, but I, you know, as far as, like, I've found I, you know, someone said once like, if you't have, stop waiting for something to show up, create it. And so, like I created a little community of women who have left corporate, left the nine to five, trying to build their own dreams, and so, like we kind of talk about what it's like to like recover from these workplaces and so like, in a sense, like I'm finding my community. In that sense, I would like more of it. I do. I am a bit introverted and I do like my alone time, so I don't go to a bunch of events, but I would like to be doing.
Speaker 1:I feel like 2025 is more of that, like being out and out in the world. I've been in my little chrysalis for like the last year and a half but also like community and you know I would say like the journalistic community can be a little pretentious and so like it's been. You know there's a little bit of this. I don't know if it's like mean girls is kind of the expression, but it's also guys too, right, but there's this pretentiousness about that I've never really fallen for and so I find it hard to fit in in some of these more traditional communities in my career and so in that sense that community has been. It's also like, just like the movies, right, newsrooms can be quite abusive. The screaming the editors like you suck, and the screaming the editor is like you suck.
Speaker 2:You know, there was a lot of my life that I felt like I didn't fit in and I had a really, really big breakthrough when I realized that most of those situations where I didn't feel like I fit in, when I stepped back and really looked at it and asked myself, I realized that I didn't want to fit into that. And when I realized that I was kind of unconsciously making a choice, it changed everything. Instead of going, oh woe is me, I don't fit in, I was looking at these environments like that pretentious stuff and saying no.
Speaker 2:no, this is not, I don't't fit in, this is I choose not to fit in, this isn't. These are not my people.
Speaker 1:It's yeah. Similarly, it's just occurred to me. It was like wait a second, I wasn't. I wasn't supposed to fit in, I wasn't meant to. You know, it was like that was the point. Like that's been so. It's felt so good to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's liberating, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like we weren't meant to fit in some of these spaces, you know, and that's okay, wow.
Speaker 2:This has been an amazing conversation and I have loved every minute of your story.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you, and it's been great talking to you all.
Speaker 2:So normally we do three rapid fire questions, but I dozed off somehow and forgot to formulate three rapid fire questions. So, dwight, we're going to have to shoot from the hip. We're going to have to make them up. I'll go first with one. I've got one. So you find out that you only have a few days to live and you're reflecting back on your life. What is the thing that you feel the best about when you reflect back on the time you've been on the planet.
Speaker 1:Hmm, I mean first reaction, first response. If I had to think fast my heart like just the way I have moved about the world my whole life, even in my days of drinking Not to say I'm not saying I moved around the world perfectly or as a saint, but I have always cared deeply about people and humanity and everything I've done has been in some service to the world.
Speaker 2:I sense that about you, like the moment I met you. It's obvious you wear it on your sleeve, as the saying goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I used to be told I care too much and I was like, and I remember thinking I tried to temper that for a while and then I was like, but wait, just recently again like maybe it's okay, maybe that's.
Speaker 2:I've been told most of my life that I cared too much. My mom would say it to me when I was a kid you just care too much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but maybe it's not a bad thing, right.
Speaker 2:No, why is that a bad thing? Yeah, have you got a rapid fire?
Speaker 3:Well, of course. Well, we're both two highly sensitive people. I think it would be really interesting to see how you would answer this, Given that you got to go to places where you could study antiquity and reach out and touch things, and you have an interest in stories. Who is it that you can relate to, be it in fiction or in myth or in history, as a character, as an avatar that more or less tells your story? And tell us a little bit why?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, that's a really beautiful question. I am, oh my gosh, I'm going to have to think about that. Who tells my story? Oh well, I mean, actually I do have an answer to this.
Speaker 1:We kind of talked about this at the beginning, but Simba from the Lion King oh, and because and I'm just now realizing why I was so drawn to that and he lost his father and he felt like it was him to blame and he went about the world kind of ran away. But really it was just on this journey of self-discovery. And I think my favorite scene is when he's back in this field and he is a young, a young man at this point, and Rafiki the baboon comes with his stick and he's acting kind of silly and and, um, he's like the mystic right, he's the shaman of the of the show and he, he, he says, um, I know who you are. And he's like you don't know who I am. And he's like you don't even know who you are. And he's like who am I? Then?
Speaker 1:And Simba says to Rufiki, and he says you're Mufasa's boy. And he's like how did you know that? And then he says my father died, I hate to tell you. And he's like no, and I think this is the point of kind of like all of the work I'm doing too right now. But he leads him to a puddle of water and he looks in the the um. He says look, he lives, look there, there he is. And he looks his reflection right and he's like that's just me. It's like no, look hard. And then he sees his father and for me it's not literal, it's not my actual father, but it is like my higher self, my goddess, mother, father, god, source, universe, love, whatever that we are deeply connected to. They live in us. And he rolls in on this massive cloud in the field and he says you have forgotten who you are. You must go back home and take your place in the circle of life. And I think that's where I am right now. It's just finding my place.
Speaker 2:Wow, I had forgotten about that scene and I'm like I'm going to email it to y'all after this. I'm having flashbacks. I'd forgotten about it and I remember how it affected me. When I saw it on the screen, it just brought me to tears.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's beautiful. Okay, final question you have this magical ability to go back in time to visit your younger self at any age that you choose. How old would you be the part of you that you would visit, and what words of wisdom would you share with that younger part of you, knowing what you know now?
Speaker 1:now y'all are gonna make me cry. Oh, I talk to her a lot these days. Um, I would say 13, right before my mom moved away and I was left with nobody. And, yeah, I would tell her, I would love on her and tell her that there's never been anything wrong with her, that she didn't cause any of this, that anything that's going to happen to her life she did not cause it, and that she's worthy and that she doesn't need a title to validate her. She doesn't need anything outside of herself to validate her, that she is complete and whole and everything that she is, and um, and that's. I would just want, yeah, I'd want to share that with her that she's going to be okay, more than okay, and she's going to have a beautiful life ahead of her, all of her own creation.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that. I'm crying too. Wow, awesome. This has been an amazing time together. What a beautiful conversation, and I feel so honored that you just shared so vulnerably and openly. Thank you for this.
Speaker 1:Thank you all so much for having me. I loved getting to talk with you all and I'm excited to be joining some of y'all circles coming up here soon and February 1st right.
Speaker 2:Yes, we can't wait.
Speaker 1:Thank you all so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you.