The Mastering Podcast

Boards To Books: Governance, Property And Crime Fiction with Peter Robertson

• The Mastering Team • Season 2 • Episode 4

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Peter Robertson has lived more than one professional life.

He has moved from mathematics and technology into property development, governance, sport, entertainment and crime fiction. In this episode of The Mastering Podcast, Peter joins Magnus, Don and Will to unpack what it takes to build across industries, lead at board level, think about Brisbane’s future, and create stories that keep readers turning the page.

The conversation explores Peter’s work in property and entertainment, his perspective as a Director of Tennis Australia, Brisbane’s opportunity leading into 2032, and the surprising overlap between governance, sport, business and writing crime novels.

This is a conversation about curiosity, reinvention, decision-making and the discipline of mastering more than one craft.

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Unscripted Storytelling And Firsts

Magnus

Never forget your first.

Peter

No, exactly. I'm not trying to change the will with my novels. I'm just trying to entertain people and explored, which is a form of storytelling, right? So it's the it's really probably the last bastion of unscripted storytelling. We don't know what's going to happen. It's it's it's human interaction and it's sort of purest, I think.

Brisbane Confidence Before 2032

Magnus

Today's special guest is a rare blender of governance, entrepreneurship, and creativity. He's the director of Tennis Australia, the business Brisbane leader behind Gulf Central Entertainment precinct near the airport and a published crime novelist. He moves between boardrooms, development projects, crime scenes, and is joining us in the studio today. Welcome, Peter.

Peter

Thanks for having me. Really looking forward to this.

Magnus

Now, mate, to kick us off, I know that uh you're a panelist at an event that I was uh fortunate enough to attend last week. Building Brisbane. What are you excited about and where do you see the opportunities?

Peter

I think um Brisbane, I think locals are often the last people to appreciate what they've got. You know, you you you live with it, it's like my golf course. I think, oh yeah, it's okay, but when see it through somebody's eyes and you'll fall in love with it again. So I think hopefully Brisbane will fall in love with, or Southeast Queensland will fall in love with itself again, and we can see that that confidence spill over into all sectors, you know, from entertainment to to our sporting performances to our business confidence. Uh, and so that's what I'm most excited about is what Brisbane can become by just realizing how great we are.

What Might Miss The Deadline

Don

Mate, what do you think is uh lacking right now between now and 2032? What are we missing?

Peter

Oh, I think we're gonna miss. I think we're gonna struggle to get the allied entertainment um activities built in time because there's gonna be so much um capacity morphed up in the big projects. And we heard from Graham Newton that from the Cross River Rail that there's seven billion dollars worth of stadiums and forty-eight billion dollars worth of rail to be completed in the same time. So add all those things up, private development and fiber construction is going to be constrained, and you know, I think you're gonna have to have relationships with your builders to get things actually done. Magnus would be all over this. And so, yes, it's that allied stuff because we want um there was some research done that I came across that showed that Brisbane people are worried, they're not worried about the cost actually, so much. They're worried that we're gonna be built in time, they're worried that we're gonna get people around in from a transport sense, and they're worried that people are gonna have a good time. And I think that goes to the sense of pride as a Southeast Queenslander that uh we we want to put on a good show, and it's that allied stuff that I'm more concerned about because I think we'll get the stadiums built, we'll get the transport done. Yeah, it's that other stuff that I'm sort of more worried about.

Don

Mate, as a builder, are you confident we'll get all those things done in time?

Magnus

Um, I wouldn't say I'm confident and uh agree with with Peter's point. And I spoke to a uh gentleman that's quite a prominent uh builder in Brisbane last year, and he was saying there was circa 50,000 jobs required to get the work done just for the Olympics. That's not including some of that transport work you're referring to, the government, state government still committed to some hospitals. But where are those 50 people? We've got a housing crisis. Where are you gonna house those 50,000 people to be able to build what we need to build? But I think somehow you just get it done, but it's not gonna be it's gonna be more challenging in the years to come when we really start. Like we're in the design phase at the moment. So as soon as they start to get boots on the ground, it's

From Maths And Software To Property

Magnus

interesting. Speaking of property, Peter, what's how did you first get involved in property and have you got a significant progress project that you could share with us?

Peter

Um, I I was owned a software company. I I I I've the I don't know whether it's a good or a bad thing, but I've never actually held a job in my life. So I I started a company in university, it went okay, and then I got into property development as a as an investment vehicle for myself. Um and I because I'm a mathematical background, I like commercial property. It sits with me, it's numbers, it's not really emotion, it's just putting making the numbers work. And so, yeah, that one thing led to another, and all of a sudden I found myself almost full-time property development. Um, and it's been good to me. Yeah. Hold on, right.

Don

I just want to dissect some of those things. You just said mathematics, your history in mathematics. Yeah. And you started a software company.

Peter

Yeah.

Don

Um, but I don't think you did justice in the introduction because um I'm curious. Before we even get to the mastering of your your uh books that you've done, six books in a matter of how many years did it take you to write six books? Maybe four. Four years, yeah. Two trilogies. Okay. That's yeah, simple. But before that, how I mean I was a lot more to dissect, I think.

Peter

I was studying in university, I'd been accepted to do a PhD in mathematics in Oxford. Okay.

Don

And what did you do your undergrad?

Peter

Uh maths and then physics. Okay. And then I I I I came across literally, it's like this. I came across a personal computer and I went, wow, these things. Because I was used to going up into the mainframe with deck of cards and sitting there all night waiting for my program to run for it to tell me that I'd made a mistake in my coding. Yeah. And um, or my model that I was building. And I could just do this thing. I could put a command in and it would tell me straight away, and I was just blown away. So I thought about setting up a software company with another uni student friend of mine. It wasn't successful in the wild, you know, Microsoft sort of era, but it was modestly successful and quite influential. But um, yeah, the property thing just took over.

Don

What was the sorry to to dive in? I'm I'm curious, being my tech background and and yeah.

Peter

Uh it was application, it was straight application software. Software. Yeah, straight application software. Which era was this in? So we had um we actually started in agriculture and we had a we had an arrangement with the University of New England. Okay, and we we wrote software for genetics, um, you know, for selection of genetic selection of animals. And then I got into real estate, we had a real estate division. Um so yeah, we were it was but pure application software written with really clunky code, stuff sent around on floppy disks, no internet. If you if you wanted to upload or fix a computer, you had to dial in on a modem that went shh, you know, those sort of modems. It was really clunky. And you know, you you talk about turning points. Yeah. Um, I probably should have stuck with it a bit longer and waited for the internet to come in because that opened up a whole nother world. Although it took another 10 or 15 years, by which stage I was you know comfortable, comfortable financially, and uh and probably I can't regret that.

Don

So uh I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. I that you know, anyone who's played with a computer uh I don't know which era you're talking about, it uh maybe early 80s.

Peter

Is that it was yeah, it was right through the 80s and into the early 90s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don

You know how hard computers were used, and it's DOS and you got Lotus 123s and they they were they weren't the type of um software that you talk about these days. So it was anyone who can make any sense out of it to solve a problem, how kudos to you, mate. To make money out of that to then be able to uh pivot into something else.

Peter

Barely. Um anyway, it was it was it was a transition that I didn't really plan and it just happened. And you know, I'd like to think I could change direction every ten years in some way, shame, shape, or form. Not be not be a wholesale stop that, but just have a direction change every ten years. That's sort of been my sort of goal, I suppose, in a in a in a subtle sort of sense. Is that because you get bored doing one thing? Absolutely in terms of which is one of you I see you were gonna ask me what my greatest weakness is because it's getting bored too quickly.

Will

That's uh a bit of a problem. That's a I think that's a really good segue in the sort of question I had for you. You you sort of sit on a few boards and you've run businesses. When you go into them, how what determines whether you you like you just re-inv reinvigorate what's already there versus no scrap everything and we're starting again and and we've got to clean out the closet?

Fixing Broken Businesses From The Board

Peter

Okay, if I'm honest, I like a business that's a bit broken. I I would prefer to get involved in something that's not not going perfectly, um, and then play a part in in bringing it back. Not that I would play a big part, but you know, I one thing I think I'm good at is bringing people along with me. So, you know, we we can find a direction and I can you know bring people along on that journey. Tennis Australia was far from broken uh as an example. So that but it's a big business like that, there's always a lot. Um another one I did was St. Margaret's um school, which was it was in real trouble um with a bad series of um choices in their employment, and uh we were in real danger of of you know a 120-year-old business getting into trouble. So we turned that around and it was like a big big gigantic cruise liner turning in the Brisbane River. You know, it took ages and ages to get around, but once we got going the other direction, it was with unclear waters.

Will

Yeah, so that's probably like a too good sort of example where you know Tennis Australia just needed a something maybe a little bit different. It wasn't like a full UI bolt, whereas St. Margaret's was sort of like, holy crap, we've got to we've got to do a full UI here and and and sort of but what what were sort of some of the factors within that that sort of was it the people within there or is it just purely the vision? What what sort of do you pick up on? Oh no, we've got to do a full UE here and in the board level or in the middle of the year. Yeah, probably from a board level.

Peter

Um so I think from a board level, the thing that defines success to me is people around the table, smart people around the table with the same sort of value set. I think if you if you if you're sitting there with the same value set, it's really easy to make the right decisions and you don't waste time making the wrong making you know arguing about um the wrong decisions, you know. So it makes it a lot easier when you've got the same value set. So that's not easy on a lot of boards, you know, it's not easy to get the right value set around you, but if you can find a way to do that, it that's pretty powerful. Um and then having confidence in your executive, and you know, and that's where a lot of a lot of boards have trouble because you know they just don't have that confidence, which then doesn't give the executive the latitude to deliver on their strategy or envisage a strategy because they're always thinking, I wonder how the board's gonna pull me back on this. Whereas, you know, then the perfect scenario, the CEO has these great ideas, comes to you, stress test them, you might not agree with them, but he walks away or she walks away, going, Yeah, I see what they're coming at, and you know, we can we can tweak that and come back again with another another set of ideas. Have I explained that? Yeah, no, absolutely.

Tennis Growth And Pickleball Reality

Magnus

While you're on the the board while we're on tennis, where do you see the future of tennis? It was just off the back of another hugely successful Australian Open, and then now there's pickleball knocking on the door.

Peter

Well, yeah, see, people say that about pickleball, and I'm guessing you might be a pickleball player. Absolutely not. Okay. Um Candace Australia is an amazing business. Like it the Australian Open is a juggernaut. You know, our growth is far outstripped all the other slams. We're the largest of the slams, which is just incredible down in Little Old Melbourne, at the other end of the world, that we're the biggest of the slams and pretty much all the metrics. So it's going fine. Um participation is always a challenge, and there's a huge disconnect between the delivery of infrastructure, between the big infrastructure and the small community infrastructure. Anyone who's been involved in sport will know that challenge because they're funded by different levels of government. You've got, you know, feds and states funding the big stuff, and you've got councils who've got no money trying to fund the community stuff. So there's a big disconnect there. Pickleball complementary formats, which we call them, so that includes pickleball paddle, beach pop tennis, beach tennis. They're brilliant. I mean, they are just brilliant um assets for tennis because they bring more people to the sport, they bring more people to venues. They're great for the Australian Open because tennis is the hardest of those sports by a country mile, and it's the most athletic and skill-based of those.

Don

So you think it creates that that community level participation?

Peter

Oh, the complementary that flows through complementary formats, yeah. So they can invigorate, they can reinvigorate sporting clubs, tennis clubs, um, racket clubs, whatever you want to call them. We're putting paddle into the into our golf facility. Um what the researchers finding, the US is a bit ahead of us in terms of pickleball. They they got into it a lot earlier. They are finding that tennis participation has jumped as well as pickleball. So they're not predatory against each other. They complementary, yeah.

Will

It's like a 2020 format or a sevens format in rugby or somewhere like that. Exactly.

Don

Is that what we need to do with every sport now? You just break it down to the lowest level of participation or the or the skill level and then introduce that.

Will

I think what Peter's saying though is it's it's ensuring that it's not it's not a fight against each other. It's understanding that there's I mean, I've I've always sort of said that about sport in general in Australia, that we shouldn't be competing against sports, like it shouldn't be NRL versus AFL or you know, cricket versus tennis. It should be like, no, that's they should run together and we should be all pushing it together. So I think that's a really good example of where it works.

Peter

And we're see Tennis Australia is serious about it. So we've last year we put it into a constitution that tennis is defined as all of those things. Yeah, so so we don't care covered by insurance program if you're at a at a fully added club, it's it's all all go as far as we're concerned. So yeah, there'll there'll be there'll be challenges along the way. Um, you know, those players come with different mindsets to the sport. Um, you know, they they come in it differently, they're different age groups generally, different demographics, but it's great, it's fantastic. And I just want to say at the golf driving range, okay, it was so easy for me to make that to make that assumption because we have the a really busy golf facility and we don't have a golf course. Um, we're way busier than any course in Brisbane. Yeah, probably all the courses combined, but we don't have a golf course, and it's still golf. Yeah like that it's still golf, like they're still enjoying it, they're still loving hitting a ball, and they're still consuming the sport, probably on television now, and going to clubs and playing.

Don

Before we move away from tennis to golf, I want to ask is Tennis Australia bigger than Craig?

Peter

Yeah, absolutely. He's done a fantastic job and he's got a brilliant team as as everyone would know, he's leaving in in some months time. And and I get it from his point of view, he's he's got one probably big challenge left in his life, and USTA is it. So and he's got family over there. So um it makes sense for him, but um, you know, yeah, yeah, we're we're I mean, there's always losing a CEO or you know replacing a CEO is a tough gig. And as from a board member, it's just one thing the board has to get right, it's getting a CEO, you know, recruiting a CEO. That's sort of the number one job a board has. So to have to do that when you've got a brilliant CEO already in the suit is you know, it's it's it'll be a bit of work, but it's also exciting because you know you can you can set us up for the next 10 years, and if we do it right, and you've got a brilliant role model, he's not he's not rushing away, so he's happy to be part of the transition.

Will

And if he's done the right job, you'd imagine there's a pretty good team there behind. Like it's not just him, you know. Like if he's if he's done a good job, if the board's done a good job, there's gonna be a good thing.

Don

You don't want to lose that momentum though, because it's no, you don't want to lose the momentum, but I think he's put it in.

Will

I think he's got I think he's left the organization, and as as I heard him say recently, he's left the organization in a better way than it was when he arrived, and that's all you want to achieve, really.

Peter

That's true. So, you know, we we'll be pushing a billion dollar revenue, which is huge, and that's public, so I can I don't I'm not giving away any any secrets. If if if it was a quarter that size, it'd actually be harder, I think, to replace the CEO. Because it that's at that scale and that scale of event, it's a machine, you know. That like they're already planning, you know, our first board meeting is planning for twent AO 2027. Like it's it's just a machine that just chunks a chugs away. He's he's got it lined up. So I'm I'm uh once I got over the um the the shock of you know, not the shock of it, that sort of okay, I'm losing the CEO. I'm I'm good. You should be excited.

Magnus

I think by the sound of it, the board's really stable. I think when you've got a stable board and you've got this machine that you mentioned, I don't think you're gonna have too much trouble attracting the right calibre of CEO.

Peter

Yeah, it's but sport's different, right? It's got a million stakeholders and they're all vocal, they've all got a point of view. It goes right from the tennis club at the back of to the Australian Open to all the international stuff we have to do. You know, we're a shareholder in an event in the Northern Hemisphere. So it's a big, it's a broad group of stakeholders that you don't see in most organizations. So it's a big job and and a tough job. Um so yeah, we'll find someone, I'll I'm convinced, but it's it's not gonna be there's not gonna be 30 people who are b who are contenders. They're you know, three maybe, I'm guessing, we'll find.

Don

Peter, before we um talk about your new venture or a few of your new ventures, I want to take stock,

Building A Golf Venue Near The Airport

Don

right? Like we we when we're doing a research, um whether you get bored m with one thing or not and you go to the next one, it's really hard to sort of figure out what you've done with your life. Like you talked about your software company that you wrote for agriculture, property development. You you've built a golf course here in in Brisbane. It's probably one of the best and shiniest ones we've got right now.

Magnus

What a brilliant concept on that. I noticed that when we were out there the other week, and you built this driving range right next to a discount outlet shopping centre. So what a perfect place for the blakes. Like you go and have a shop. Yeah, I'm gonna go and hit a few balls. I reckon it's brilliant.

Peter

Uh it's look, look, it's it's it was a look. I I I was presented with that opportunity with with my colleague who's still my colleague on James, who's the golf expert. He is a ex-golf pro. And he said, I've got this side, I don't know how to put it together. Can you come and have a look at it? And I walked on the side and I went, Oh my goodness, 17 hectares this close to the city. We have to get our hands on this, and and we'll find a way, we'll work it out. Like I'm I was so confident that we would work it out. It was a swampy, wet, poorly drained site, but I went, Wow, this is so too good to let go. So, you know, we we spent a year trying to work out how we're gonna make this pay, and uh, and you know, came up with this idea, and then it went well. COVID was a great thing for us. People rediscovered golf during COVID. Yeah, and then we said, okay, let's go. Let's go and build the brewery and the distillery and the concert venue and all the other things that we're gonna we're we're doing there. It's fantastic. It's you know, it's it's a it's a great project. It's it's my number one. Is that least? It's yeah, we we've got at least till I think 2021 hundred, I think. So um I probably probably see me out. I've told them my age before this, so uh they probably will laugh. Um yeah, so with with federal, it's it's a sublease through BAC through the federal government.

Don

So So how did you you know all the swamp land, you you got this concept. How did you put something like that together?

Peter

Um So you you you have to have the vision, I think. I think you have to look at something and have the vision, but not be blinded by the vision. You have to you have to push and pull it until it works. And and I think that's with property development, it's it's often the same. You you see something, I want to build a 14-story tower. You might find that that's that the soil conditions don't allow you to do that, or it just becomes too prohibitively expensive. So you've got to be able to stress test your models and your your ideas and be prepared to change those on the fly almost. Um so yeah, one step, one one one foot ahead of of the other. Each, you know, okay, we'll do this. Is that gonna work? We'll do the model. Is that gonna work? Um, you know, it's got to be financially viable. So that's that's also the trick. It can be can look good and uh but if it's not gonna make not gonna pay for itself, then it's starts with the vision, then ends up on the FISO, and if it stacks up, then if it doesn't if it stacks up, great. If it doesn't stack up and you still love, you still know in your heart that it's gonna work, then you you know your idea's wrong, so you'll reshape that stress test it again.

Magnus

So what's the biggest challenge of that project? I've I've the big Caltech, the big shell server station out there in the McDonald's. I built that a number of years ago. So I'm very familiar with the ground conditions out there and and the joys of of working with BAC. So what were your biggest challenge out there?

Peter

Um in terms of yeah, well, it's difficult. I mean they regul they've regulated the hello life out there. So it's even though that site's not on not actually on airport, it's part of the airport overlay. So you get all the airport regulations, which reasonably, quite reasonably, are stringent because you can't have, as we're seeing, what's happening in you know in other places in the world, you lose your airport and you're in a bit of strife. So I get why that's stringent, but it's it's very difficult. Everything takes a lot longer than you think. Um and um, but one of the interesting challenges of that business is not what you think, in that once we we established it, we knew it was good, but we just couldn't get people there. I mean, that they even that they would drive past to the DFO and and then I'd be talking to someone and they'd say, Oh, where are you? And I'd go, the DFO, have you ever been there? Oh, you would go every week. I've never seen you. So we had big signs, and we just had trouble getting people there. COVID delivered them in spades because they sought us out. And then once once everyone had found us, it was word of mouth, you know.

Don

So to give a bit of context, it's on the north side of Brisbane, um, in the same precinct as the direct factory outlets. That's it. And then right next to the the uh Brisbane airport um itself. Yes. So it's not in the middle of nowhere, it's it's it's a pretty high sort of the best thing about I read that because of the ICB, it's so easy to act.

Will

Like I'm on the yeah, I'm on the west side of Brisbane and it's still pretty close to me because I can just go down the other side of the ICB and I'm there. Like it's it's so accessible.

Peter

When we opened up, that wasn't functioning. All of that infrastructure, and I said, gee, isn't it great? The government's spending eight billion dollars delivering customers to pre-building your driveway. Yeah, how good. Uh so yeah. What what year did you open? We opened 2014.

Don

Um wow, it's been around since 2014.

Peter

Exactly, exactly. That's to your point. Yeah, to my point. Yeah, so um, so that was it. That was a challenge, and we just had to be patient, I think, and just keep promoting and keep, you know, well, in word of mouth. But COVID definitely was uh just a giant uptick as people sought out things to do um outside activities, it was huge. Things they could do.

Will

How many of uh how many of your golfing partners gave their opinions on how you should do it and how you feel like were they helpful or were they was it like nice to get their ideas around how you did it? I did structure it. You didn't get it.

Peter

Simple as that. Um yeah, because I mean I I was probably delivering the you know, I'm a golfer, but I was delivering the constructibility side of it. Rather than the golfing experience. Rather than the golfing. And my my colleague is a is a golf guy, he's got a rare combination of hospitality experience. He worked for David Mariner, he worked for IMG. So he's got a rare combination, but he's really strong in the golf. So between us, we can sort of cover off on most of the challenges that we've had to face.

Don

Peter, when you've gone from one to another project, have you Do you take the expertise you learn from one project to the other one? Have you do you master a craft or do you just just get enough so you can move on? Does it have any impact?

Peter

Are you talking about the property side?

Don

Anything that you do. Like you you built software, then then you went into property, then you you know you're a scratch golfer. Like did that have any impact? Oh, it was a scratch golfing. I think if you've been a scratch golfer once, you're always a scratch golfer, but uh does it help you then?

Peter

Inevitably. I mean you you but you don't notice it at the you don't notice it. I don't think you don't have time to notice it. So yes, my my maths, my software, you know, very analytical. It's no surprise that I would take that approach to uh property development that I'd be hugely analytical.

Don

Um so you're not consciously sort of sorting out for things that fits in with your expertise and it's happening without even noticing it?

Peter

I I haven't done that. Um I perhaps should have. You know, I should have focused on on sticking within a narrower band. But that's I disagree. It's a lot of fun.

Magnus

I think what you've done is you've just followed your heart, you've followed opportunity, and then you've you've capitalised on the fact that those other areas of expertise that you've gone through have just, I guess, enhanced the the next the next.

Don

Well maybe maybe it's the success comes from the expertise that you've got from other projects, right?

Magnus

Like a I Well they complement each other, but I don't I don't think they sit on top of each other.

Don

Yeah, I actually think I haven't met too many people that's got that many fingers in their pies.

Peter

Now you you say that like you say that like it's a good thing, though. It is a great thing, it is it is actually a good thing if it's successful. Okay, I think there is one thing you learn that you do take across is make sure you've got great people beside you. Yeah. Uh and if you've got great people beside you, it's a lot easier to do anything. Like, you know, you can each augment each other's skills. So, yeah, getting great people and making sure you don't get the wrong people on your team because they they can destroy your your psyche and your and your your life.

Magnus

So is that is that project that the golf driving range, is that the biggest risk that you've taken in property?

Peter

Um probably because you know it's not underpinned by a multinational tenant or you know, your shell. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's it's we either has it got the security of a lease agreement. So yeah, if it didn't work, then it hurts. It would it's it was going to hurt a lot. So yeah, that's probably the biggest risk. I mean, we've got I've got lots of other projects where they're the risk I think is mitigated really heavily in one way or another. That that was if we screwed it up, then it was gonna hurt. Um so yeah, that you you were right on the money there.

Vision With Numbers And Real Risk

Magnus

No, well let's let's change gears and talk about novel writing. So, what first inspired you to write novels? And I believe you've got a bit of a not the same process-driven methodology on how you go about writing a novel. Tell us how you go about it.

Don

I think we've got the first this is the first book, right?

Peter

Yeah, that's the very first one I write, yeah. Yeah, back in back in back in the mid-middle of the COVID nightmare. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Don

Up to six books.

Peter

Yeah, really. I've got a soft spot for that one. Obviously, it was it was a story that You never forget your first. No, exactly. In so many ways. Um So how I I I started writing small opinion pieces, um but about sport and its role in community. So that was, you know, and then I started to publish them. I still remember publishing the first one of those and the fear that I had of pressing post on an article that was putting my ideas out for everyone to read. Anyway, a couple of them got picked up um, you know, by the mainstream media, and I thought, oh, okay, I might I might have something to say that people want to hear. And then COVID came along, and I was you know, struggling for uh to keep myself busy, and um and that that one came from uh from a holiday, and I I streamed up this sort of broad part of a plot and then started to write it. But what I'd learnt, what I learned in the process was that there are two types of writers, and I've learned this subsequently. There are plotters, which almost every layman who hasn't written a book thinks you have to be a plotter, that you have the plot out laid out on a whole lot of sticky notes on your on your wall, and there are panters, which is which I am, which is a fly by the seat of your pants. So I have no idea what's gonna happen in my books. So when I start writing them, I don't know who the sometimes don't know who the characters are, I don't know who I don't know what this the plot is gonna reveal, and I don't know who the culprit is. And it's very exciting to write like that because you know it's like you're reading it.

Don

Yes, it's it's also exciting to read. I was actually having a chat to Peter a few weeks back and um said to Peter, one of my favorite authors is Jeffrey Archer. Yeah. And I said, Your books sort of reminded me, and that's why when you recommended me the books were uh a couple of years back. Yeah, yeah. And and I was like, there there was a similarity in it, and it didn't really click to me until we were having that conversation and you were trying to explain the two differences. And I said, Yeah, that's it. That's what it is. Because I I felt reading Jeffrey Archer book, and I've been reading Jeffrey Archer since I was a little kid, and and I always felt like he had no idea what the hell he was writing about.

Magnus

I I don't think he ever knew it surprises me about you though, Peter, because you you come at you're obviously very analytical and you very sort of look like you're more process-driven than that.

Peter

Yeah, I was quite surprised too if you look at your background. Surprised me too, I have to say. Um it I mean it's not it looking at it really uh systematically, it's not that surprising because it it writing a novel is just a big puzzle that I'm I'm putting together and I'm I'm assembling the pieces as I go. When I did try to plot it out, um if I if I try to plot it out too far ahead, yeah, yeah, it just doesn't work for me. I and and I never write like that. Uh like I wrote a I wrote a um chapter I'm writing I'm writing at the moment. So I go through phases where I'm either editing, writing, marketing, um, and I'm writing at the moment. And I wrote a chapter on Sunday morning and I came out from my office and I said to my wife, oh my god, I had no idea that that was going to come out. When I sat down this morning, I had no idea what was going to happen. And it's so invigorating when you when you you come out of that and you go, wow, that is really interesting. And I didn't know I had that in me in me. Uh that's it's fascinating that that happens. So you're writing at the moment, so you've finished your last trilogy.

Don

Is there a is there a new series coming out?

Peter

Yeah, a new series coming out. It'll come out in the next few months. Yeah, wow. And I've but I'll finish the first one, I'm writing the second one of that series. And it is I think one thing I did learn is it's good to write at least be partway through the second one before you release the one before it, because there's things you can fix up or connections you can make between the two novels that you can do on the fly. Once it's out there, it's much harder to to make those sort of adjustments.

Don

So what's what's the what's this new?

Peter

Uh he's it's a it's a PI uh private investigator, he's a young Australian and he's he's a lawyer working in London, and he gets himself into all sorts of strife. He's like he's not a James Bond, he's the sort of opposite of a James Bond, but he's a he's a cool guy and uh and he has he has a lot of fun in in his job. So he's um and I was heavily influenced by Raymond Chandler um in putting that guy together. Uh I don't know, you know, Raymond Chandler, 1950s author, largely uh attributed to be the father of modern crime novelling, crime writing. Um and he's it's fantastic he's a fantastic writer. Um lot of it would get cancelled in today's world. But yeah, no, he would be, yeah, but but he is his the way he structures his books and the wry humour that he sprinkles throughout the text is is just it's a joy to read. Uh and you've just got to look past any of the the glaring uh you know things that clash with modern day, I suppose. Yeah. So so yeah, so I I don't know what's going to happen. I love it when people say to me, I'm reading your book, I'm about at chapter, you know, 20, and I know who's done it. And I go, Well, I didn't know I didn't know who did it then, so I don't know how you are going to. So yeah, that it's it's it it surprised me as much. Um in Michael Connolly's another pantzer. Oh, is he? Um, you know, it's it's an interesting way to write. Okay.

Don

But what's um a lot of authors live a bit of themselves in the in in their writing. Um in this couple of series, where do you think you fit in? It's it's a female detective, pretty dark sort of material that you're writing. Um she's got a lot of my views.

Peter

That that that's uh there. A lot of my views, a lot of my experiences. Uh and my books try

Crime Novels Written Like A Ride

Peter

and take on a theme. So uh each book is uh about a crime, but within that is a subtext of of a theme. And for instance, this one here, um that's really about the tension between developers and environmentalists. So there's there's this constant tension uh that exists. And isn't it? If it's a healthy tension, it's it's but you know, when it's so yeah, it's it's that finding that balance between environmental and and and development that I'd explore in that book, and then corruption that creeps in the as people try to overturn the other, you know. So that's but that's a subtext to the plot. That's not the main plot. Yeah, and the other ones it's about um there's some crypto, there's some the one I'm writing at the moment's really about biotech and AI and the risks, you know, looming risks about what might happen if AI gets itself lease biotech world.

Don

Is that about uh you know I was gonna ask you because you did write about NFTs and crypto in in the last book, and how risky is is that to um incorporate what whatever is currently sort of the buzz technology or or buzzwords or whatever's going on in into writing books?

Peter

Probably not very smart because it's gonna date the book, isn't it?

Don

I mean Yeah, and that that's what I was asking.

Peter

You know, i is that a consideration when you're an author or or you're just trying to connect because it's connection is one thing, then Yeah, it's risky for sure, but I've just gone back and read all the Raymond Chandler novels and I loved them. So they were written in the 50s, completely different um societal values and standards, but still still great to read and and fun. I'm not trying to change the world with my novels, I'm just trying to entertain people. Actually, my goal my goal in writing is for busy people like me to pick up the book at night, read a short chapter, and transport themselves out of their day so they can go to sleep. That's that's ultimately if if if I can do that with my books, that's that's great.

Don

And to be honest, it gives you uh insight into that, how people will who are living um at that time when you're writing it, right?

Magnus

So if you're yeah let's talk about discipline. Do you consider yourself a disciplined person? Even like writing, there's a lot of people they talk about writing a book. You've obviously done it, and there's plenty of people that start but they don't finish. Where do you see yourself on that spectrum?

Peter

I'm naturally a disciplined person. I mean, you you can't have you can't have and self-disciplined, you can't have had sort of my life, me never had a job, and you know, I'm not super wealthy, but I've done okay. You can't have that sort of approach to life and not be disciplined. Because well said you just wouldn't make it. So yeah, I'm naturally disciplined, and writing is it's an easy thing. I find it relatively easy to do. I'm not saying I'm the world's greatest writer, but I finding putting a crafting a novel relatively straightforward. And it's as simple as I get up in the morning at sort of five, in sometimes earlier, sometimes my wife does not particularly love me getting up earlier than five, but I get up early, I grab a cup of coffee, I will then try and write 1,500 words on average, sometimes it's less, sometimes it's more. An average book's 80 to 90,000 words, so that's 60 days. I mean, it's that simple. It's just 1,500 a day.

Magnus

So analytical, considering you don't know where what you're talking about or where the story's going.

Don

So does a good project manager make a good author then? It it seems like you've you've if I look back at most of the stuff you've done, you've managed the projects quite well. Whether it's a transformational project you've done with St. Margaret's you've talked about before, or being part of Tennis Australia, or um building a golf um driving range, or writing a book, there seems to be a um very common theme.

Peter

Well, I think you have to have a good imagination and and there has to be a sort of creative side to you um that that is there. Uh so I think that was always there. I've got you know, very creative. I had a very creative mother, and you know, so I think you've got to have that creative side because you're not you're you're dreaming stuff up. Yeah, you're managing your time and you're managing a a process and a plot. And you know, within those 1500 words, at the end of that, there's a problem I have to solve at because of the way I write. I get to the end of that and I go, okay, where am I going next? What's the problem I'm gonna solve? And then my and I let I let myself cogitate on that for a little bit and I solve that problem, and I then I go forward into the next, into the next problem. I don't know whether I've explained myself, but each page, each paragraph, you've But there's a there's a hundred different moving parts, right?

Don

You've you've you've got to write the book, but you've still got to make sure that you're plotting in the right direction and certain things don't drop off.

Magnus

I I think it's closer. Like from my experience of property development, to be a good property developer, you need to know a little bit about a range of different things, but the fundamental skill is the vision. Like you've got to be able to look at something and have the vision. I think that's what you're able to do, and that's transformed back into your writing, more so than project management, because like I said, in my experience, there's so many different moving parts, and as a property developer, what you do every day is you're solving somebody else's problem.

Peter

That I think it's I think that's a really good analogy. I I just think mathematics is huge is hugely creative. Like the top of math, the higher order mathematics, it's not arithmetic. I mean, it's dreaming stuff up and solving problems.

Magnus

I'd love to hear Will's comment on that because my wife's an accountant, and so being a bit creative on the spreadsheet, what are your thoughts around that, Will?

Will

I'm sort of I probably come from the opposite. I like maths because there's there's a right or wrong answer, it's not grey. As soon as my job is the hardest part about my job is when it becomes grey. And so people are like, Yeah, but what's the answer? I'm like, well, it depends. Whereas with maths, the bit of the bit I do like about maths is one plus one is two, and you cannot argue unless you talk to my daughter and she's gonna be a good one.

Magnus

What about tax? Because I'm I'm curiously getting the game trying to be positive and it's a speech data.

Will

I did a talk this morning and someone said, Oh, so you're gonna teach me how to do tax avoidance. I said no, I'm gonna how to do tax minimization, and there's a big difference. So the other one's not. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So look, I think I think that's yeah, that's a bit that I like about maths, is there's no right or wrong.

Don

But I think Peter was talking about a total different. I think what he appreciates it's the opposite. It's the opposite to that. The total opposite to that. My my background is theoretical, physics, and mathematics. Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's right. We have that conversation.

Peter

Yeah, you understand.

Magnus

Yeah, but that's a that's a whole it's almost open-ended, whereas mine's a very we've got a in in property development, it is just it's it's continuously moving and shifting. Well, if something else you get an overrun over here, well then you've got to figure out how I can cut some costs over here. So it's it's moving, it's not as rigid as five plus five. You're just moving things from this column into that column. Okay. So it overall stacks up.

Don

I can tell you in physics nothing adds up.

Peter

No, it's it's it is it is quite different than what people what people think, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Um so yeah, I think there's a creative element in all of those things. So I I I I do think you have to have a creative side.

Don

I think there is a culmination of everything sort of coming together, and I you've been actually been whether fortunate or or intellectual enough to actually implement all of that into things that make sense. Whether it's a golf course. I hope that makes sense. It is making sense because you're actually doing things, right? Yeah. And that's a difference.

Will

You are doing things that Do you think that's do you think that that that physics size actually help you golf? Like, do you like do you think do you think it is a bit of like uh like when you when you approach the ball and you're like you know the distance or whatever you but you're you go well if it works like this, or do you think it's just you know, or or is it worse because you can't play the velocity of the ball?

Peter

I think I think it the all of the above. Um I I golf is an incredibly difficult sport. Like it's so blindingly difficult, and that's the great thing about it. You never you never have mastery over golf, you know, because you know I read a statistic that the average golfer sorry, all golfers hit no more than six good, six or seven good shots around. Now, obviously the great golfers hit their their bad shots are still good or great. Um so everyone is sort of in that same paradigm, it's just it's how much we grind it out. And you know, I've only had so much a certain amount of time to practice, and I got to my lowest handicap during COVID because I was playing a lot of golf and and it was practical. Practicing a lot.

Will

I I I hundred percent agree. Like my I wasn't I was the best golfer when I was at

Discipline, Craft And Daily Word Counts

Will

boarding school because I literally did nothing else but chip and pig. Like you like when I go home, mum and dad would leave me on the golf course and I'd play just all day. And you just the more you play, the more you play, the more you play. The re it's such a it's funny that isn't it such a repetition.

Magnus

Repetition builds confidence.

Peter

Yeah, it's and and the grind, you know, just the grind of doing and and you know, uh allowing uh allowing that repetition to sort of seep into your your game or your soul, and it's uh d do you feel like you're getting better as a writer as you do more?

Don

Now you're up to your seventh book, is is it getting easier?

Peter

Yes. Yeah, definitely getting easier. I don't have any lack of plots, so plot finding the finding the stuff finding the the theme is really quite easy. I've got quite a few lined up. Yeah. Um so finding that's that's hard. It is hard getting going, like it and and I the so if you imagine imagine I'm writing about this scene today, right? We're us sitting around here. It takes a lot of mental energy mental energy for me to build this scene up in my head. You know, all the faces, how people looking at you, the the scene, the table. It takes a lot of energy to build that up. Writing it once I've got it built is relatively easy, uh, so I put that down. So it's it's getting going in the morning. That first paragraph is torture and every every morning, and writing starting a novel is double torture. And but it gets easier, you know, as you go and as your thoughts start to assemble, and your subconscious is working the whole time in the background, and it started start and it gets to a point where it starts feeding you ideas that you don't even know about. That's why I get so excited when I walk out and I say, Oh, I didn't know I was gonna write that. Yeah, it's because my subconscious it was it fed me that at some some stage during the day.

Don

What's harder, the starting piece or the dip?

Peter

The dip.

Don

Lots of authors talk about that dip, right? Like you you hit a wall every now and then.

Peter

My dips are caused by holidays or the Australian Open or I just I just lose all of that that structure that I've built up. Momentum. Yeah, I use momentum and all that structure I build up, and then I've got to come back and and start again. I I I did get a great tip about writing multiple novels, and someone said, When you the day you finish your novel, you need to start the next one. And even if you get three chapters done, which is nothing, you know, yeah, 5,000 words. In your mind, you've got a book underway. And and you're if you're a disciplined person, you won't let that go.

Will

It's almost like an anti-procrastination hack.

Peter

Yeah, you'll just come back to it and you go, Oh, I'll I'll work on that book I'm writing, you know, rather than I've got to start a new book. Do you write more than one book at a time? Uh I will edit one and write. Yeah. It's a bit of both, depending on how I feel in the day.

Don

If you've got a hundred ideas going through, would you?

Peter

I can only write I can only write one at any one time.

Don

That's why I'll never become an author.

Peter

Yeah.

Don

You've got too many things going on, haven't you? It'll be, yeah, if I start writing, I'd I'd probably stop halfway through, I'll come up with a better idea and start writing again.

Peter

Because I don't know what ideas I'm going to come up with. It's like I'm writing a new book. You shall get a new book anyway. Exactly. So it's pretty exciting.

AI, Sport And The Future Of Creativity

Magnus

Where do you see? I hear a lot of people, and that I actually I have written a book as well, and I went to a book writing course a number of years ago. But now with the with AI being everywhere, do you think there's any threat to the human storytelling?

Peter

I think there's a huge threat to human storytelling. Um, I think so. I'll go back to what I think is going to do well. I think sport, which is a form of storytelling, right? So it's the it's really probably the last bastion of unscripted storytelling. We don't know what's going to happen. It's it's it's human interaction at its sort of purest, I think. One of its purest. So I think sport's gonna go go well in an AI world. I do worry about the creatives. I I hope live music does well.

Don

Um I think that's because I'm just bought one too, right? We we had one of the the best sports analysts in our podcast, Craig O'Shaughnessy, right? And and he talked about taking that element. Like, at what point do you automate all of that to a point where human intuition gets overridden by statistics and that artificial intelligence?

Magnus

But that's where the intuition that we talked about come comes into play as well, particularly team sports, like Will's got a background in in rugby. It's not a matter of we're gonna run to that line as soon as we get to that to pass it. You've got to get there's so many other variables before you're able to there's too many uncontrollable.

Will

That's the word like I think we can get it to a point, but I still think there's an uncontrollable, and I also think that's the entertainment part. Like to me, that's the bit sometimes. I get frustrated around like even like DRS reviews and and that sort of stuff. There's just there's an element of that that I don't like because it's what else are we going to talk about in the pub after the like I sort of I sort of wish that would go away because we've got nothing to talk about sometimes.

Peter

In terms of the variability that Will was talking about, um, I had a story at the French Open where I watched Rafa play uh an Australian actually, and the Australians seemed to get a lot of bad bounces. Rafa never got any bad bounces, it seemed. And then after the match, I was talking to Gay Montfeist, a really brilliant French tennis player. He's really delightful. And uh he said, Yes, we have a saying in in clay quarters, us people who've growing up on clay, that a hard court player says, on playing on clay, I got all these bad bounces today, it's unfair. How did that happen? And a clay quarter says, I can't believe how badly I moved my feet today for the same set of bad bounces. So Rafa was just moving his feet so beautifully, and the uh other guy was stuck.

Will

That's a great way of looking at it. It's almost like taking ownership, you know, like not blaming it. And it comes out.

Don

That's where I think the human variability is always gonna be there. Even if you have a AI intervention, I think yeah, we we're gonna have that human cognition. Hopefully, fingers crossed, yeah, that's still gonna be there and when we're not gonna be taken over. But before I rudely cut you off, you were talking about where AI was going to have a huge impact.

Peter

Well, I think you know, we know maths and music are completely interlinked. So it it's not, I think, going to be surprising that recorded that AI will be brilliant at making recorded music, and you've probably all heard some of it. Like it's it's unbelievably uh good. Live music, hopefully, the artists will make enough money to do live music, and that that then you know gives the opportunity for people to connect. And so I I think I think live music sh should have a good future, hopefully. Some of the other creative industries, I'm just not so sure. Um I'm and it would be it'll be a huge loss if if we lose that creative because we will lose that skill if we're not exercising it because you're they're talking about kids losing it already because they're not they're not tapping into that right brain to come up with ideas because they just they just ask chat.

Don

That's what I was gonna ask too. Like, is is it is it gonna be an effect off where we're not gonna be even using that part of our brain where AI is going to take over, we're gonna lose the ability to start with, so we're not actually not gonna even be creating those creatives.

Peter

I I I think it's a risk. I mean you've got to you know coming up with a new idea is an incredible thing, isn't it? Like dreaming up something from nothing is just an incredible thing. Um, but it's something that you have to exercise like any other skill.

Don

Yeah, so when it comes to authoring, how much do you think that can be outsourced to an AI and you know keeping in mind that this is the worst that AI is ever going to be. It's only gonna get better, it's only gonna learn from um what we're feeding it.

Peter

Look so there are stories of authors publishing 16 books a day using AI publishing tools. Yeah, they're rubbish. They only they only want to sell two or three copies and they get taken off the market. Um it that's a big risk because if people start to distrust um you know what they buy as an author, they will then to focus on the names that they know and trust, which doesn't give opportunities for new authors to come online and doesn't encourage them to to put themselves out there and uh and and create new things. So I I'm I'm worried about it. Um it doesn't affect me financially, but I I'm I'm worried about for us as a future society that that we'll lose.

Will

That's where the fine line is. I think that creativity is the thing that I worry, like I agree, worry. Whereas there's other stuff that I think it's epic for. Like I would I would argue that it sometimes creates better knowledge because you're willing to keep searching. It's so easy to search for it. You're like, well, I might as well go and dive into that particular topic. Like I know even from like an accounting perspective, like as soon as a problem comes up, I can dive into it, I can really clearly get into the knowledge of it without having to go to a textbook or something like that. I can really dive into it. It's really under it. Well, not just productivity, but I think it just it really it's so easy accessible to increase my knowledge around what I'm doing. I think that's a really great thing. Um, but the creativity bit, I think that's the bit that I I do worry about as well.

Magnus

What about from an editing perspective? Is that something that you think it can help with?

Peter

Oh, definitely. I use it for you know, I use it for editing now because it just saves so much time it and it it does a great job at it. Um I I don't I don't use it to write anything, but I definitely use it to edit. I mean the word is in in its form just word is a form of AI. So it's just by degree. So no, I'm not I'm not um it would be tempting though, and I do use it for research, like I use perplexity, and I'll say, explain to me how you know how how this yeah how this works, because I don't understand. So I I learn a lot by using AI or you know, just just Google, but from an you know, I use Google Maps all the time. Like I'm writing situational and and so that my current one I'm about to release is sit between Lake Como and Zurich. I could just get online, walk down the street of Zurich that I'd picked out and describe it, and I can just I don't you know you've gone outside of Australia. Yes, I've gone outside of Australia, but Google Maps is brilliant for an author. You can literally walk down Australia. Yeah, without having to go anywhere, it's

Self-Publishing Advice And Rapid-Fire Close

Peter

fantastic.

Don

Mate, for a young author that's starting out, looking at all these challenges and everything else that we talked about today, what would be your best advice?

Peter

Oh well, I'm not uh I don't know that I'm the right. Well, let's take the word young out. Any author that's starting out. Don't don't do it for fame and fortune. Um you you've got to do it because you love doing it, and focus on the process of doing it, developing your craft because you will get better by just doing. And and if you if you if your goal is to be a famous author, not many people become famous authors. So uh I would say focus on your the process, get become disciplined about the process, write your book and um and then write the next one. And you know, it's it's tempting to get frustrated because you're not being picked up by you know one of the big publishing houses.

Don

Um on that, uh how do you get your book published?

Peter

Oh, I I self-publish. Um I mean I'm talking to some publishers, but I do self-publish.

Don

Yeah um because uh But how do you go about even self-publishing? How does that work?

Peter

It's amazing, actually. Um I bought some software, some publishing software that converts my Word document into a publishable format. Yeah. Um I sourced a cover designer in the US. I've had an editor in the US. Um, because I um I chose those um because the US is a big market, but I chose the US author because I I pick up all my Aussie vernacular that I that I don't realize is Aussie vernacular. And some of the ones she comes back with me, I go, really? They don't they don't understand what spit the dummy means? Like, who in the world doesn't understand what spit the dummy means? There's all these sort of idioms that we use that uh so I've had to now my books have a have uh Australianisms in the back to talk about all those things. But yeah, that's why I did that. And then you go to one of the platforms and you just publish it. It's an incredible, uh, incredibly easy. It's not simple, but it's not difficult.

Magnus

And uh uh, you know, any anyone who's got a mathematics degree like you, Don, mate, you'd be fine. You would be absolutely fine, Don.

Don

This is what I said at the start, this is so far from my expertise, I wouldn't even know where to start, let alone the fact that I I'll be writing three books at one any given time, which is gonna crash.

Magnus

We are out of time, Don. Is there anything that you had that you must say before we uh get to stuck in things, but I think um yeah, we've got to stop at some point. You ready? Yep. Coffee order, flat wide or piccolo. Early morning writer or late night thinker?

Peter

Early morning, early morning rider. What are you completely useless at? Um yeah, I'm completely useless at um not I get stuck on things. So not not changing my mind quickly enough sometimes is more useless at Are you structured or spontaneous?

Magnus

Structured favorite holiday destination. I'd say I've got heaps, but Australian desert. A movie star you'd love to meet. Ryan Atkinson. A song you just have to sing along to.

Peter

Anything by the Beatles or ELO.

Magnus

One word that defines you.

Peter

Curious. What gives you energy being around like-minded people on a pursuing a single single-minded goal?

Magnus

What's harder, building a business or finishing a long novel? Definitely building a business. If not tennis, what sport would you think you would have played? Probably golf. What are you working on to improve yourself right now?

Peter

I'm really working on my golf game because it's it's absolute rubbish at the moment. So I'm working hard at that.

Magnus

And a movie you've watched more than three times?

Peter

Anything, any James Bond movie, I've watched all of them more than three times.

Magnus

Last question What are you mastering right now? Golf. It's been an absolute pleasure, Peter. Really appreciate all your insights, mate. You've uh you've lived a wonderful life and so many different experiences that many people can draw from. So thank you. Thanks for having me.

Peter

Thanks for having me on. It's been an absolute joy. For our listeners, where can they find you? Um, probably best through my website, pg-robertson.com, and that will show my novel from my novel's point of view. Um pg-robertson.com, and all my novels are there. My new one will come out, and you know, I publish a uh monthly newsletter. Uh, I think you guys are. Oh, yeah, I guess mine, yeah. I get mine every month. So that's a bit of fun, and just you know, I call it insights into the life of a crime writer. Yeah. I I there's one thing I wanted to say, I did actually have in thought to say when strange things, great things happen from just doing you know, you you I've had some incredible experiences just from my authoring. I've got to meet uh murder detectives, I've got to go to an incident room, I've got to get in the mind of of investigators and how they go about solving a crime. Yeah, wow. It's they're fantastic experiences. And I get people reach out and say how much they've enjoyed my books and how it's kept them company, you know, through difficult times, and so all of those things make make it worthwhile. So I think um, you know that that process of just keeping moving forward and doing your thing delivers surprising results.

Don

Have you had to uh um do any research on criminals?

Peter

Oh, yeah, I read all that all the time.

Don

I mean, I'm I'm no, I mean uh have you ever had to go and meet anyone or or um No, no, I haven't had no, they keep me away from that.

Magnus

Probably be a mistrial if I that is that's a great way to finish, and that is absolutely some great advice there to go and chase your dream, and uh you never know where it's gonna end up.

unknown

Yep.

Magnus

Thank you guys. Thank you. Hope you enjoyed this exciting episode of the Mastering Podcast. If you got value from today's conversation, hit that subscribe button now and share this episode with a friend. Until next time.