Mastering Sport as a Force for Change | Professor Sarah Kelly OAM

Sport can look like a scoreboard, a sponsorship deck, or a weekend habit, but we see something bigger: a national trust asset that shapes identity, community and opportunity. Professor Sarah Kelly OAM joins our hosts, Magnus Olson, Don Sanka and Will Tuffley, to explain why the real power of sport lies in what it teaches about leadership, resilience and fairness, and why governance and funding determine whether that power is used well or wasted. Along the way, we talk about her path from commercial law to academia and boardrooms, and the habits she uses to protect energy when the roles keep stacking up. 

We also go deep on education and the future of work in Australia. With AI interviews, misinformation, and skills changing faster than ever, Sarah makes the case for critical thinking, evidence-based decision making, and learning how to learn. We unpack why face-to-face communication still matters, how to build networks based on shared values, and why “who you know” works best when grounded in trust rather than transactions. 

From there, we shift to sport governance, integrity and inclusion: what separates a good board from a dysfunctional one, why diversity and Gen Z representation matter, and how safeguarding and ethics protect sport’s brand. Sarah also breaks down the Australian Sports Foundation’s role in tax-deductible sport fundraising and why telling the social impact story is key to unlocking philanthropic investment. Finally, we tackle women’s sport as a cultural movement with underpriced commercial upside, and what the Brisbane 2032 Olympics legacy should mean for residents, accessibility, and long-term community sport. 

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a mate, and leave a review telling us which legacy you want Brisbane 2032 to deliver.

Want more? Find us on You Tube, Instagram, X, and TikTok where we share bonus content and engage with our listeners. 

Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review! Your support helps us bring more inspiring stories to life. ❤️

Transcript

Evidence, Tech Change, And Sport’s Power

Sarah 0:00

It doesn't matter what you study, it just teaches you that that discipline of um asking questions, always um using evidence-based decision making in in life and career. And that is really powerful, particularly the the technological upheaval we're now seeing with the likes of AI and quantum intersecting going forward. I think personal relationships, trust building is so important. Ford is actually a very heavy lifter on social impact in this nation. I think it's beyond a move, a little movement. I think it's a big movement, I think it's a cultural movement. So we're going to better articulate those stories to really appeal to some of the private ancillary funds that are quite big in this nation. Because at the moment, I think, unfortunately, some of the narrative around sport and its power, it's very much towards the economic side. But in fact, if we can articulate that actually it's a lever for social change, um, social impacts, it's yeah, it's more powerful in terms of investment. Are they good people? Like there's a no-dicodes rule I have. Can I say that?

Magnus 1:05

Yep, yeah, absolutely can either.

Meet Professor Sarah Kelly OAM

Magnus 1:17

What if sport isn't really about sport? What if the real power of sport is what it teaches us about belief, identity, leadership, resilience, fairness, community, and the kind of country we want to become? Today on the Mastering Podcast, we sit down with Professor Sarah Kelly, OAM, one of Australia's leading voices in business, government, and the future of sport. Sarah is a professor and executive director at QUT, Chair of the Australian Sports Foundation, Deputy Chair of the Brisbane Lions, and a recognized expert in sports law, sports marketing, sponsorship, governance, technology, and Olympic legacy. But this is not just a conversation about titles. It's a conversation about a life shaped by education, sport, and purpose. About moving from commercial law into academia, from research into boardrooms, from theory into impact. It's about what sport can become when it's well governed, properly funded, and connected to something bigger than winning. Joining me are my two favourite co-hosts, Don Sanka Small, our in-house education powerhouse, formerly of homegrown Unicorn Go One, and now driving the mission of borderless education with global disruptor DeSur Education. He's also an Australian masters athlete. So he's living the Sport Meads Education thesis in real time. And Will Tufley, partner at BDA, specialist in helping professional athletes transition beyond sport and protect their financial futures. Someone who spent his life in this arena. Professor Sarah Kelly, welcome to the podcast.

Sarah 3:02

Oh Magnus, thank you for that very generous introduction. My goodness, and a pleasure to be here, guys.

Don 3:09

That was one of your best.

Magnus 3:12

Mate, there was um you I like the the powerhouse bit, Dolnuts.

Don 3:16

I like it too. I like it too. Thank you. It's intimidating when you're sitting in front of uh Sarah being called a powerholes in education.

Sarah 3:26

So um you are though. I mean, you're the the Go One thing was amazing. Yeah, I'm in awe of you guys, what you've done. I know you all, you know, you know Vu and Chris.

Don 3:34

Yeah, we had Vu Vu on the podcast.

Sarah 3:37

And just right here in Queensland, you chose Brisbane as the headquarters, I think is it was an amazing journey. It's it's a great impact what you've done there and continue.

Childhood Curiosity And Asking Why

Magnus 3:47

So before we talk about titles, and there's a lot in the podcast today in that in relation to that, and that's very much what you do, but it's not who you are. So if can you take us back to your childhood and just tell us what you're like as a kid growing up? Perhaps you could share if I asked your mum what Sarah was like, what would she say?

Sarah 4:08

Oh goodness. Uh um, firstly, when you said titles, I thought we were going to talk about the back-to-back premierships for the Brisbane lifetime. But anyway, that's just so yeah, back to childhood. I was really lucky to be honest. Um, grew up in a a pretty middle class family here in Brisbane. I I think if you're you're born in Australia, um, you got two lovely parents who love you, you're ahead of the curve already. So I for as I've got older, I often sort of really am really deeply sort of grateful for that. So yeah, nothing that exciting really, suburban Brisbane, uh over there at Chapel Hill. What would my mum, my mum and dad actually passed away a few years ago now, but you know, what would mum say? Gosh, um yeah, she'd I was pretty adventurous, very outdoors, like pretty spirited, as I'd have to say. So I wasn't one of those little girls that stayed inside and played with Barbie's, no interest at all. I might have been our neighborhood was near bushland, so we'd we'd build BMX bike tracks and do all that kind of stuff and run around sand pits climbing trees, crazy stuff like that. But mum used to always dress me in these little dresses she'd make. And I'd come home just with mulberries all over them and ripped because I'd be climbing trees with all the guys in the it was just so much fun. So that's life, right?

Magnus 5:33

That's very outdoors, very lucky to have that childhood. Did you think you had a very clear direction of what you wanted to do when you were a child, or was it something that you explored?

Sarah 5:43

Oh, not not at all. No, no. Um I just had like I had a lot of interests, I suppose. Like I always wanted to um, you know, I always thought Space was really interesting. I watched Doctor Who, I was obsessed with Doctor Who. Then I wanted to be a rock singer because I was watching Countdown. This is how old I am. None none of you will remember those shows, probably.

Don 6:05

I do. But um, you should all remember that, yeah.

Sarah 6:08

And then I loved reading. Um, mum was actually a school teacher, so she she always read to us growing up. And so I loved reading. And then I wanted to be a writer, then I was gonna be an actress. So yeah, many different things, none of which I turned out to be. But um, it was always, yeah, just I yeah, just always asking a lot of questions. I think even as a kid, I used to people would say, Can you just stop asking questions? Like, this has got to stop, you know. But I think that probably was a bit of a sign as to my the sort of interest in the law and then research and and I guess education as well. It's all about asking questions. So I think that's probably it with the signs were there, even though I probably didn't recognize it myself.

Don 6:53

Was that curiosity that you followed if you look back at your career or opportunity?

Sarah 6:59

I think curiosity is probably one of my core values. Um absolutely, always has been. Um, I just find it really interesting to learn about stuff, you know, whether it's through reading a book or meeting a new person. I just I really enjoy. I'm one of those strange people actually really like meeting new people, um, travel, all of those sorts of things. So, but I I think in terms of career, it's often the opportunity that crosses your way as well. And I'd absolutely acknowledge a bit of luck meeting the right people, but probably also being fairly open-minded with that curiosity to new opportunities. I think you can see them, um, hopefully, a lot of the time. Whereas maybe people who aren't as curious might miss some of those opportunities. I I don't know. But it's good both.

Will 7:46

Yeah.

Law, Commercial Thinking, And Research Skills

Will 7:47

So commercial law, um, what did that teach you about sort of setting up how the world works and and how that set you up um and and what sort of basis it given you for what you've sort of achieved throughout?

Sarah 7:59

It's I thought that was actually even studying law. I I actually really recommend people to get a bit of law under their belts, you know, just along the way. We all need it. But I think what it taught me, and in practice as well in commercial law, was absolutely um learning about, I guess, an analytical framework of thinking and that capacity to build a case or an argument and defend it. Uh, I think that's really they're really good skills to have in whatever you do in life. So it taught me that. It taught me commerciality. I think everyone needs a bit of that as well. So I think it it kind of set me up for that as well. Being able to read, understand, critique contracts and go to those clauses where things always go wrong. You kind of learn that as a lawyer, and I I'm really happy to have that now. I use it probably most days.

Will 8:50

I married a lawyer, so I didn't need to do that.

Don 8:53

Commercial and a content.

Will 8:56

That's a combination. That's where the that's where the conversation usually ends, to be honest. It's just a power combination. Yeah, I know. That's it's it. No, I I think that's under I think it is underrated how just that professional services basis, especially in sport, I think they get that sometimes, and you know, and you you would see this a lot, sporting organisations, sometimes we can underestimate how just that base is so important across the board. And I think in education at the moment, potentially where we're finding where education's going, that can sometimes get lost. But I think if you have a look at the really the great people in sport, they tend they tend to have that early career. It's you know, the law, the business, the commercial, the the that commercial side, as you say. And I think we really need to ensure that that that's there.

Sarah 9:40

It's 100%, Will. And it's I mean, you're applying it into the sports sector through some of your advisory, I know so well. But it's yeah, it it is really important to have those skills coming into a sector like sport, which is actually increasingly complex. So you need that.

Don 9:57

Those basic skills make a difference, right? For you, it seems like the MBA was a bit of a pivot point. Was there any part in your life that you uh looked and thought, oh, this is the direction my life is meant to go?

Sarah 10:10

I think doing the MBA, I was I was actually an in-house general counsel at the time and they sent me off to do that.

Don 10:17

Yeah.

Sarah 10:17

And I really enjoyed it because it opened up this other sort of opportunity where you could go into management in the organization or stick to the law and all of these other areas. But yeah, that one really opened up the opportunity in marketing and undertaking a PhD. I came across a fantastic professor out of the States, uh, Professor Bettina Cornwell, who's now the Phil Knight chair over in Oregon University and still very involved in sports. So she really encouraged me to do a PhD, which is probably the last thing. Because I was thinking, you know, opportunity cost of a PhD, as you know, it's it's huge. I thought, oh no, I don't need to do that. I'm starting to have kids. We just had twins at the time and I was juggling all of that. And then she sort of just uh for about six months to a year, she said, no, come and do a lecture for me, come and um do some tutoring, and just gradually whittled me down into and and convinced me to go and do that. So that was a turning point because once I started that and learning um research skills, relearning stats. I'd done a commerce degree as an undergrad, but never, and we did stats in that. I don't know if anyone's you've done business and commerce and you do stats, but I think not having the context of how all that stuff can actually be applied and used. Um, I did that during the PhD and I thought, ah, I really understand this. It's it's just so it was actually really, it sounds nerdy, but really exciting learning about those sorts of research skills and why they're important for life as much as business and academic research. I think with all the turning point.

Don 11:51

All the information that is out there right now, I think everyone should have the capability to dissect research and be able to make up for their own mind, like if this is real news or not. I think that's a huge requirement for that type of skill. Along with everything else we spoke about. So having that understanding to be able to look at a piece of news or um something that's been presented to you, yeah, in a critical kind of way. Correct, yeah. I think everyone should um get some sort of education or around that on how to do it. And for for me, that's a huge important

Energy, Exercise, And Daily Habits

Don 12:26

piece.

Magnus 12:26

One thing I'm curious about is that how you can be really capable at something, but not necessarily be fulfilled by it. Like, did you go through a stage in your life where you had to sort of distinguish that between what you're really capable of and what you were called to do?

Sarah 12:41

Yeah, that's a that is it's a great question. And I think it's it's a tricky one in different phases of your life because when you're younger, you've often not got a choice, right? Correct. You're told to get a task done at work or whatever it may, and you've got to do it. And you've got to do it well. And I think that's something well, dad certainly taught us. He was a publican, and so uh we grew up in pubs working, you know, serving the public. He sent us off to Maccas to work at Maccas for five years at one point because the great starting point systems and any of you work there?

Magnus 13:17

I I I managed six months there. Oh, did you? Yep. And then you couldn't do it any longer. Uh well then then I then I left school and started an apprenticeship. So Oh, well, that's yeah, you were on the way.

Don 13:27

McDonald's used to have some of the best leadership programs and management training programs. They they were well systems and process. Yeah, that's it.

Sarah 13:34

I think dad sent us there. He was an accountant, by the way.

Don 13:38

Yeah, straight straight after uni. I used to manage a Dick Smith's electronic store, and they don't exist anymore. But um, every time someone came from McDonald's, we always hired them because we knew that they've gone through this rigorous training and the processes and they they were well trained. So yeah, I know exactly what your dad was thinking.

Sarah 13:58

Yeah, and you're serving the public. Yeah. You're serving everyone from the public and learning to kind of smile, serve the seven steps of service or whatever they taught you.

Magnus 14:07

Isn't isn't that another hidden talent, I think, to be able to in in in this day and age that it's just retail. It's it's serving in one way, description, one way or the other.

Sarah 14:17

And and I absolutely I think that's exactly right. And that's something we learned at such a young age in the pubs and in McDonald's, and to your earlier question, that makes me always approach something I'm asked to do by someone um with that service sort of mentality. It's like I may not like doing it, I might have may not be good at doing it, but I'm gonna give it a good crack. And um, because I respect that person or that organ, and I'll I'll I'll give it a I'll give it a go. Um, but then I think later in your career you you're in that position where you can actually um really, I guess, discern whether this will actually draw on your strengths that you can actually add value. I always ask myself that question around saying yes or no to something. Um and uh and actually enjoy what you're doing. That becomes more and more important because time is so scarce.

Magnus 15:08

I think as you get older, I know I went through a particular point in your career where all of a sudden you were kind of forced a little bit that no, I have to do this and I have to work for such and such a person, you have to tolerate that, and then you get to a little bit of a more of a point, I think, where you're able to choose on what you like to do rather than what you have to do. Do you think when I look at your profile and all of your achievements, I don't think a lot of people really fully understand the pressures of what you do, and and what's that what's that cost you? All that pressure and all of those titles, what's that demanded of you over the years?

Sarah 15:45

I've really enjoyed everything, I'd have to say. And that the failures as much as the wins along the way, it's mostly because I've just got to meet incredible people, travel to unbelievable places, and learn pretty much every day. So I I'm really I sort of look back at a lot of stuff that I've somehow ended up doing, and through whatever reason and and whatever people have steered me in that direction. And it's just I don't regret any of it. I've actually, so that's something I yeah, I'm I'm quite happy with with all of that. But in terms of what it's cost, I yeah, I guess it does cost energy. I think anything you say yes to, any project you take on, it's it's energy. Uh, so I think I've learned, I was never, I wasn't perfect at it when I was younger, especially when I had young kids. I think there's um your energy levels are really hard to kind of um get right between work and raising a family and seeing your friends and all those, staying fit and all those things. But it's something I've really kind of thought about over the last, I would say, 15 years, where I think you you have to retain your energy to give energy to others. And so that's something I really work on.

Don 16:59

I think um this is something that Magnus really covers really well in his own M26 podcast, which is the mind-body-spirit theme, right? Yeah. Is there anything that you do that um makes it easier? Um, are there any practices daily habits? Yeah.

Sarah 17:16

Okay, I think the great thing about all academia is it's quite flexible. So and they do encourage us to apply our expertise out there in practice, which I absolutely enjoy through the board rolls, for example, and consulting and all of that kind of thing. So, but the energy sort of stuff that I probably do every day, um, exercise every morning. It's not a good day if I haven't got in my exercise in the morning.

Magnus 17:40

Uh what do you do exercise-wise?

Sarah 17:43

Oh, I do um, can't you tell? Just I'm so fit. Not no, but uh, I just think it's really important, particularly as you get older too, to preserve your bone strength and um and your spirit too, to your great point, Magnus. It's it's your mind as well, your cognitive ability as well, as the energy physical energy you bring. Um, I do gym, I I swim a lot. I love ocean swimming, I love surfing, I love stand-up paddleboarding, walking the dog every day. Um what else? Bit of running, although I broke my ankle in three places last year. So the running is probably not quite right yet, but getting there, getting there on that. Bit of yoga and Pilates as well.

Magnus 18:25

You've got everything covered. That's unusual. It's it's my philosophy is that you've got to do the strength training, you've got to do the cardio training, and then you've got to do the agility, and you've got all of those covered because a lot of people, I've got a lot of friends who, for example, master cyclist, and just when you're just humped over a bike, that's great for your cardiovascular fitness and for your legs, but it's not really beneficial across the board. So for the whole thing, yeah. 100%. So well done.

Sarah 18:49

But I like yeah, I do enjoy that. But it to the energy point, something I've been doing the last few years is getting up first thing, not looking at the phone. I've banned myself from doing that because it all the news news is so depressing that comes in overnight. I just don't want to see it. So I get up and make myself uh like a green tea and sit and sip that because I learnt about gut health recently, and that's really important. So I thought I'll give that a crack. I feel good, so I thought I'll keep going with that and read. I usually read a novel or a book um for about 45 minutes before I then go and exercise. So that's something I do enjoy.

Don 19:24

What are you reading now?

Sarah 19:26

Well, actually, I've just finished one and started a new one. So I've just finished, you guys would love it if you haven't read it. The Sarah Wynne Williams um whistleblowing story about Facebook. Um executives and head of global policy. It's a phenomenal story. So that that one was really good and actually extraordinary. Uh, and then there was one I just started reading as an Irish writer, John Boyne, um, The Hearts Invisible Furies. It's really good too.

What Education Changes In People

Don 19:59

You've lived inside universities and business schools and in executive education. What do you think changes a person with education? What what is that fundamental change that happens with people with formal education or any type of education, to be honest?

Sarah 20:17

I think one would be confidence. That's the thing I just love seeing in students. You get a lot of students who are actually first in family to attend university sometimes, and they're the ones where, you know, we we get this real privilege. I think, you know, you sit on the stage at graduation when they come across the stage and you get to know most of them. But some of them, when they cross the stage, I still get, even though it's been years, you know, you'd still get quite emotional because you know their whole story, and you know they might be from a remote regional place in in Queensland or Australia. They might be the first in family to go through university, and you've got to meet their parents before the ceremony, and they're sitting, you can see them, and they're all crying. They've never been to something, all this pomp and ceremony that we have at graduation is really quite special. And I, you know, I think it's confidence is a massive thing. Another one would be the capacity to think critically, like we're just talking about, is just a really important skill that you have forever. It doesn't matter what you study, it just teaches you that discipline of um asking questions always, um, using evidence-based decision making in in life and career, uh, learning to work with diverse groups of people and in teams like that. You learn that at university because they are diverse by definition. They're a microcosm of the world. Another thing that keeps me in those institutions, you just meet so many people of all ages who are just interesting people, who are bright people, who are committed people to um, you know, to that sort of, you know, to educating themselves. a lifelong way.

Don 22:01

I think it play plays a huge I think there's a huge problem in society right now. It's called the Dunning Kruger effect.

Sarah 22:06

Oh yeah.

Don 22:07

I think education plays a huge part in that. One thing I want to ask is that there's been a huge push against institutional education versus work experience. What do you think that education alone gives you versus life experience? Right? I I wish I could build this table rather than you know being able to write a thesis. Oh me too especially at the moment. Yeah that's it's whole Magnus actually built this table himself. So yeah timbers that's really but yeah what do you think that um education gives that life experience sometimes can't yeah look it is a really good question and it's one that we're certainly asking in university land at the moment as well.

Sarah 22:54

And I think that they're probably not mutually exclusive. That I think what we're seeing now is the model of the full-time student sadly I think because we had such a good time at undergrad uni is probably gone. And a lot of the students what we're now seeing there's there's cost pressure pressures as well obviously a living cost of living pre pressures where they're needing to work alongside undertaking a degree. So I I think that's just one important point. They're not mutually exclusive. But in terms of if you were to go full time and only do the degree before heading out to work or internships, it would be that it it creates a time and space and probably a safe place to have sandpit, robust discussions, debates, confidence building, learning to ask the right questions of the right people at the right time, some useful frameworks and tools that you take for life into your career. And you learn probably how to teach as well as learn. And I think all of those things you learn how to learn is the bottom line. And that's a really yeah I I think that's a great life skill to have you know forever on that front. And I think social capital is increasingly becoming it was always important and a great outcome of undertaking university particularly as an undergrad and well and post grad. But now you set up these social trusted networks for life and that is really powerful particularly the the technological upheaval we're now seeing with the likes of AI and quantum intersecting going forward. I think personal relationships, trust building is so important and you can gain that through that dedicated time learning how to learn.

Don 24:41

I'm going to put you on the spot so if if you were to convince Magnus to go back go to university and and do formal education what would your pitch be to him?

Sarah 24:53

Well Magnus And why would he need it? So I'm as a mature age student he's not that old but you know we're we're we're pitching the mature age you know the people that sit down the front and ask all the questions.

Will 25:05

That's one of those ones.

Sarah 25:06

Yeah we need to I think if if you've never done it, give it a crack because um you will learn something and you'll either learn that you enjoy it or you don't and that's okay either way. But you're going to meet some new people who aren't in your usual orbit who you know which will be interesting in itself. You will meet some really interesting smart people who'll be who'll be teaching you. And I think and you know teaching these days is a very co-created activity. So I think it's something you'd enjoy bringing your tremendous life experience to the classes and to the experience as well will also reward you as much as others. So peer-to-peer learning is is a big part of of how it's set up in a university environment. So I would say give it a good crack. And I think to everyone everyone it doesn't matter if you've been to uni or you haven't at some point you need to be upgrading and upskilling constantly now. That's the new world we live in. So for Magnus it might be something like you know studying something of interest or something that will set up a side hustle more effectively for you perhaps um have you studied account accounting my wife's an accountant so I'm thinking accounting there so I like I like I like that and we actually had this discussion when we interviewed the founder of of the company that Don works for DeSur and the topic we raised was the apprenticeship model and I think what you were saying earlier was not as many people are going down the full-time uni road so then you're actually doing some study but you're learning on the job at the same time and I mean the closest thing to a formal education I've got is I I did the Australian Institute of Company Directors.

Magnus 26:53

Oh that's a good so that was uh yeah and it was interesting just because I think the way that I do learn is very practical. And I recently a few years ago got my helicopter license and just the theory element of that because I I do love education but I love the the kind of the practical element of being able to apply it straight away to it to daily life.

Don 27:14

So it'd be interesting to have a look at it I think you're playing yourself down so many times every time you say that you haven't had a formal education you've done AI C D you've got yeah you've done a pilot's license that that's that's that's too and you've written a book. That's impressive. Yeah so um I I think uh we're we're gonna take that piece out of your profile formal education is doesn't exist anymore.

Sarah 27:35

And it it doesn't have I'm a fan of um informal education as much as formal education.

Will 27:40

So it it doesn't have to be for a degree as you said your growth mindset is the key right as long as we're continuing to learn and we're not static.

Don 27:47

Yeah one thing I like about formal education is I always like to be in a room with people that are smarter than me. Like right now what I'm doing here. And it when I did my MBA it gave me the opportunity to do that all the time.

Will 28:00

It's it's you know getting you're you're going through that journey with people that are either smarter than you or at least at the level of you're at so I I also think it's it's also teaching you that you're always going to have different opinions to other people and there's nothing wrong with that but how to articulate that in a way that everyone still moves in the right direction.

Don 28:23

Yeah.

Will 28:23

You know like I think that's to me that's probably what's what the issue with politics at the moment is it's they're not sort of on the same trajectory as each other. It's sort of this friction of fighting against each other. There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion on how we get somewhere as long as we sort of all in general agree well that's just keep moving forward. And I think that's what to me that's what university taught me is that you're always you you might you you might be in a a group together and you're like well I don't agree with that person's opinion but I understand where they're coming from and respect it right how can we utilize that to to move forward. I think that's the important thing that you you're getting across.

Don 28:58

And I think that's the reason why they attack education first, right? The ability for people to be able to separate disinformation and misinformation from the truth that I think comes a lot from education. Like if you're educated enough to understand the truth then you're that far ahead and that's why when you find some of these regimes uh the first thing they attack is education and I think there's a reason for it.

Sarah 29:22

Yeah I think that's exactly right. That and going back to that idea of having a safe place to have a robust debate. And when we say robust it is those bringing up those differing perspectives and being challenged and not having the algorithms involved in that people involved in that. And that sort of I I think if there was more of that and maybe universities can serve that purpose a little bit which is we've set up the QT Leadership Institute which I've moved out of business school space to that partly for that reason. And it's it's to set up a safe place for people to come in and and have those robust debates and learn about themselves and others through that.

Don 29:58

Tell us a bit about that uh what's the Leadership Institute and and what does it do?

Sarah 30:02

Well it's a new it's like a I need your help. It's a startup in a bureaucracy how hard can it be? But I said yes I said yes and I'm not regretting it's a lot of fun um really meeting some really interesting people globally who are going to be part of the institute as our institute fellows uh we've got academic experts coming in but we're flipping the model where we're we're teaching leadership uh by bringing the wisdom the outside wisdom in people with lived experience yeah so it's quite exciting.

Future Learning, AI, And Human Skills

Magnus 30:31

Yeah sounds exciting uh what are three learning habits do you think people if you were talking to a young person and you mentioned before and that's what I've heard with university that what you learn is you learn how to learn but what would be three learning habits that you think you'd recommend that a young person should have it's probably a commitment.

Sarah 30:51

It's like any kind of job you know you got to commit to it you've got to have some work ethic around it. So I think that would be number one setting aside the time getting into a habit of um reading what you're meant to read otherwise it's a wasted opportunity there's no point in doing it. It's also probably important to I think collaborative learning is very much a part of the process. It's not just yourself and what you think it's actually great playing team sport I think it is a team sport. Learning is a team sport absolutely like we're talking about the peer-to-peer learning collaborative learning is part of that as well. So I think it's it's committing to that because I think humans do that really well and I think in learning environments now whether it's um in a a vocational a trade through an apprenticeship or it's through a degree where we're needing to double down on that collaborative learning because that's um what humans um that's how you scale that's how you actually impact the most all the workshops I've attended that's what I really enjoy about those like what you get from the facilitator and what you get from the people sitting around the room you get probably more out of those at the end of the day than what you do out of the facilitator just understanding how other people do things.

Magnus 32:04

I'm curious with you though Will you do a lot of work with kids and with education what are your thoughts around that as far as the the skills that you think are lacking a little bit potentially in some young I mean I'm probably putting it on from like an accounting lens um or professional service lens.

Will 32:20

I think we underestimate and I sort of spoke about before I think we underestimate sometimes the base. So for me going and doing 10 years in professional service I just think sets up everyone so well. Whether that's you know whether you then go into politics whether you then go into education whether you then go into sport um you know I I look at a lot of the really good people in sport the CEOs of the world a lot of them have a really good you know professional services basis. So to me I think that's one that's that's really important. And I think and this is something that we sometimes struggle with with our junior accountants actually just going through that 10 year process the learnings out of that is just as important. So because everything and I've said this a lot on the podcast because everyone is in a rush to get to their pinnacle place they sort of go, oh yeah but if I've got the capability to do it then I'm fine but it's the learnings that you have during that 10 year period that actually set you up just as much so the interactions the stuff ups the people that come at you you know how to deal with different personalities that bit is the bit that actually is really important looking at that in the context of construction and also in the context of fitness and that's foundation right so you've got to build that foundation like you build a fitness foundation and you're a fit athlete where you can go off and play whatever sport but if you're not prepared to do that hard work and and get fit and if you're not prepared to put down foundations on your house. That's my that and that was the best piece of advice I ever got was just go and work your bum off for 10 years and then the problem is do we have the 10 years anymore?

Don 33:48

Like it's is it the the you know things have moving I think um one of the EY um papers came out and said like yeah it's changing three years is is as long as that skill's relevant for and it's it's dropping even more and more.

Will 34:03

So but I think that reiterates why the actual the learnings that happen it's actually nothing to do with what you're actually learning. It's actually the war stories that happen in that 10 year period around like clients that come at you or people that you know come and leave and the interactions that form that 10 years is is almost more important than the actual what your capabilities are through that period.

Don 34:24

So on that Sarah to you what does future of education look like what does future of work look like um how do you think um you know are we still going to be in lecture theaters um are there going to be undergraduate degrees in the future of what's your opinion on the future of education?

Sarah 34:43

It's it's such an interesting space right now isn't it all everywhere. What does the future look like? I mean none of us none of us really know uh certainly I'm reading and and listening and and you know as you guys would be as well uh I do think there's still a really important role to play for a structured sort of environment for an undergrad student. I mean they're what are they 17 when they leave school here in Queensland 18 they've got no idea what they want to do most of them but they need a kind of place to learn a bit more about themselves work a casual job maybe or an internship along the way as well but I think if we're through the learning environment however that looks and yes there'll be a bit of hybrid a bit of I I I'm a you know powerful believer in face-to-face I think we've got to really um enhance that rather than diminish that because young people especially uh from what the reports are sort of showing and research is showing they're losing the capacity to have an honest conversation a difficult conversation to negotiate to um interview successfully uh and now they're doing um I've had four kids go through the system that I and Will you you would know too but the AI interviews most of them do for the first cut. An AI interview can you believe that? So these young people they're they're so excited they've done a degree and they get an AI interview and there's maybe 10,000 kids doing that as well for the first cut and that's not through the ATS's that are screening everything so you need to be um you need to be confident and able to communicate. So those communication skills are very human and they're only practiced human to human in my view and I think in universities we can really set that up in in degrees. The content is becoming a commodity I'd have to say a lot of the time but the actual applied nature of the content and the problem solving and the overlay of wicked systems like problems that occur in every kind of field um that's the stuff we can do and we can do it at a resolution or a at some sort of challenge around those entrepreneurial mindset would be another as well because these kids are going to have to as we know it's not just one career anymore. They've just sort of got to have their kind of their little case of skills and tools and they pack it up the end of a project rather than a job and move to the next project. That's what I think the future will be it probably won't be employers or organizations even it'll be people

Networking That Is Values Based

Sarah 37:18

selling their skills and their experience for a project.

Magnus 37:22

That's interesting where do you see the power of relationships? That's been a huge one for me and just from getting into doing this or doing that just knowing somebody and I imagine through a university you'd be able to develop a lot of relationships and through that potentially that could be leading to a job or to an internship and is getting education around how to be able to like you pointed out to communicate and actually build relationships where do you think that sits?

Sarah 37:45

A network. I actually think you've got to have a networking game these days these young people and I often you'll take some along and you would too will um along to events and things and you know really try and coach them because I I think some some don't learn those skills along the way and it is really important.

Don 38:04

It's often um who you know something with some getting that cut through the the way of networking that they're familiar with is just sliding into someone's DM. I don't even know what that means but that is what it is. Like I've been told that you know even posting on on social media platforms is not cool anymore. It's more direct messaging so there's a whole different way of communication there's a whole different way of interaction whole different way of holding relationships and networking and when you put them into a still a very professional environment like put them in a room face to face.

Will 38:37

Yeah it's still but it's a real it's a but it's a fan of that but it's a great it's a great point Sarah because I think that's a really important skill that it doesn't matter what job you do you need to have that skill. So one of the things we talk about with the athletes is like their network is so epic in that first during their career and it drops off real quick as soon as that sporting career is over. So what skills can you enhance while you've got that network really close to you and it might be just really simple stuff. It might be just taking right and business cards are sort of going out the window but it might be like right I'm just gonna come away from this networking event with my sporting team I'm just gonna come away with two contacts. That contact might end up be your boss and give you that job post-career for the rest of your life there's heaps of rabbit holes you go through with networking and stuff as well but I think having getting involved in it and learning how it works for you is really really important because it again no matter I mean this is almost a form of networking like you'd go to so many events where the networking situation is different in each situation. So it's it's an ever ever thing that you're never gonna shy have to get away from so you need to keep building those skills and have that growth mindset as you said.

Magnus 39:46

I just want to add something to that because a lot of a lot of these networking events it's very what do you do title driven and what I've learned is any sustainable relationships that I have are values based. Yeah. So when you're just meeting that person that you're connecting on that level and not just connecting oh this person's coming along I notice them on the invite I've got to go talk to them because they may be able to do this that is quite transactional. It's quite shallow it's not going to lead anywhere and I think from a younger person's perspective of really getting to know themselves and what their own values are and then surround yourself with people that have got those same shared values because I I think just even that word values is something that's uh a little bit um missing in in uh in society.

Sarah 40:32

And that it's a really good point Magnus I really like what you just said because if you don't have a values alignment with whatever relationship you're building in terms of trust it's it's nothing. Like it's just not worthwhile. And I think the sooner you realize that the better. Yeah it'll be so yeah I I do think that's interesting and for young people I think there's a lot of value I've certainly had the benefit of it in reverse mentoring where some of these young people and they don't you know they haven't got runs on the board yet and all of that but gee they're bright and so many are so impressive and many have side hustles now and that entrepreneurial mindset. They're getting ready they're they're ahead of any of us on the AI curve, the quantum curve there's there's some group I mentor some of the startups around the place and phenomenal what they're doing out of you know an apartment what you can do or uh you know just on the as a side hustle and they're they're doing really well. So I think there's a they should have confidence around mentoring potentially more senior leaders. I I think there's a real role for them to play there and particularly their voices like having confidence that their voice needs to be heard at any table. And so going into any networking and all the rest um with that confidence is a good thing.

Don 41:51

That's a great point. I never looked at it that way that's a really good point. We've got a one of our co-founders of the the mastering podcast is um this 25 year old gun who's oh really got so many side hustles that we can't even count. And they all may probably make more money than what we make in a year.

Magnus 42:07

Each one of them just to add to that though because we've all had side hustles and what I will say in a lot of those younger generation they get very energized and they get something to 80% but they don't follow three they don't have the commitment the determination to run and then something else and of we've all been that the big shiny things.

Will 42:25

Yep you get easily distracted you go off and you go off for something else so that ability just to stay and get the thing a hundred percent completed is a good skill to have with that with that value with that values alignment I think that's a really good um segue to move from sort of the education to sport now and all the roles that you have in with sport um sport is an area where there's a lot of passion. People

Governing Sport Without Losing The Plot

Will 42:49

are passionate about their teams um when you're no no no no no when you're when you're as part of someone who's on a board and governing that with all those people that would be still passionate about say the team or the organization how does that I suppose that values alignment even within the board how do you guys continue to run in the direction of having that yes the passion but how do you run the organization well within sport and how do you get that right that balance between passion and and running a sporting organization.

Sarah 43:25

Except that all the stakeholders and there's a lot of them in sport actually in the ecosystem of sport they're all highly passionate and engaged and emotional. So you're dealing with that as an extra layer of risk um stress time like all these things strategy even uh and then on the board itself you can get a little bit of that uh I don't think sometimes you can be on a board in in sport and not um appreciate the sport and when I say that you don't have to be a raving lunatic fan which I probably am a lot of the time if a lot of the sports I'm involved in but you don't have to be you got to have a good commercial sense and the right skills for the matrix of the board. But you yeah, I I think sometimes you can yeah you sometimes it has to be a bit of a a a juggle around getting it off the agenda, the emotion and and making sure you're sticking to well what what strategic decisions do we need to be making what what risk uh what what are the people issues we need to look at here. But I must say, you know, on something like the Brisbane Lions board when we have um Chris Fagan and Danny Daly come in to present on the football bit um everyone's leaning in a bit more and you know it's but I yeah so I hope that answers yeah no because I think it is a hard balance because I think it's a business but then it's also sport so it's sort of you know you want you want to make sure that it's yeah I mean you need passion in it.

Will 44:49

Like I think that's an important part of it. But I think it is a commercial business in the end and we have to get the right people to run those businesses. But at the same time it's sport and sport should be fun so we need to get that balance right as well it's complicated part though.

Magnus 45:02

So whether you're on a board or whether it's a business it's dealing with the personalities it's dealing with that emotion. That's what's most challenging you know when you break it down onto the the other parts they're actually easier to have direction on but yeah dealing with those and we all know that to make a good board is all about diversity.

Sarah 45:17

So you've got different people with different views and yeah if you're not having robust debate on a board even in a sports board you it's not a successful board.

Don 45:27

No absolutely well said so in that sense what separates a good board versus a dysfunctional one?

Sarah 45:37

Oh gee there's a lot of elements in there. I mean I think you you've got to have a a good chair I think the chair has a huge influence. The chair CEO relationship is critical as well. The I think diversity is important and I've seen that in action uh whether you know I've been on boards where I'm the only woman for instance I've been on boards where there's a gender balance and you might have an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person on the board as well as a multicultural person that's truly representative of our society. Those sort of boards to me have worked a lot better just from that diversity of opinion and background. So I I'm a huge fan of the diversity of the skills matrix but also backgrounds. And increasingly I'd say age really matters. So going back to my earlier point I think we've got to get more young people, more Gen Z on boards. I actually think get them through the AI C D get them that those quals quicker because a lot of decision makers in this country whether it's in sport or business are just not they don't have the uh you know the the skills or experience around um the new technologies that absolutely inform every sector right now. Do you think you should have more young young people who are digital natives who get it they need to be on I also don't think it's a technology thing.

Will 47:06

I think it's just a like how you came through yeah it's a perspective from especially in sport like like I'm I've been on sort of boards since I like even just my local cricket team I was a treasurer at 21 or 22 just even being on a simple board like that the learning outcomes that you get from something like that is huge. And I always find that I'm the youngest person on board and I'm you know I'm 40 this year and like we should have a lot of people within you know their late 20s early 30s on boards as part of right it's and again it's a it's another string to growing as a person. I think it's really the board selection criteria is antiquated because it No I just think that I think a lot of young people it's the last thing they're thinking about is well I'm gonna go on an especially in sport I'm gonna go on a non-for-profit board where I'm not gonna get paid why would I do that? But it's almost it's almost I almost look at it as free education.

Magnus 47:58

Yeah like to me it absolutely is and I think I think a lot of young people might have a bit of an imposter syndrome thinking that I'm only 25, I'm only 30 you know what can I offer but when I look at what some of these guys late 20s have achieved and their viewpoint they're just looking at things that's one of the reasons we've got Ryan on as part of the podcast because we are exactly we're diverse we're literally taking up one decade as far as our ages are concerned. So we've got a different lens that we're looking at things from and that's beneficial.

Sarah 48:30

Yeah. And there when you think about like Gen Z and the alphas now they're calling them the beaters the really young ones but the Gen Z if we look at them they're a third of our population now a third of our voters third of the workforce third of our fans most athletes in sport are young people of that generation so why shouldn't they be represented on the boards and the governance of our sports yeah no absolutely I'm gonna change it a little bit by betting sponsorship tension and um athlete welfare what does trust in sport now actually depend on yeah look I th sport is that's its main asset I would say you know the universal cultural connector we all agree sport is you know the visibility of it is really important culturally to everyone in the world actually doesn't matter what language you speak. It it

Integrity, Safeguarding, And Inclusion In Sport

Sarah 49:22

relies on trust as a brand sport. So once you've lost that trust through something like an integrity breach, um it's really hard to repair that that trust and we've seen it in so many you know high profile cases like the Lance Armstrong one or the um the Essendon case uh the Cronulla sharks it it front page all the time around integrity issues in sport. So it's it's really sandpaper gate dare I mention as well. Yeah but it's no you didn't but that was yeah so yeah that's I think that's sort of at the crux of it the integrity and I'd also say ethics as well because that's sort of preempts whether there's an integrity breach or not. You have to have some oversight in the environment around um you know the right systems, processes, people and culture around just doing the right thing. Yeah it's pretty it sounds simple it's absolutely not in practice and uh I think that's that's a really interesting space that sport can always improve on. And we learnt that out of the the um review into things like um child abuse in this nation a few years ago where the churches were sort of two-thirds of that report but a third of that report was Australian sports. Yeah. And so that was really concerning and you know things like child safeguarding um poor governance in sport it those issues are continuing. So there's still a lot of room for improvement around ethics and integrity but we've got to um also look at things like I would say inclusion in sport and accessibility to sport for the whole nation whether you're in a regional area whether you're um you know from a a a a low economic background whether you um whether you're whatever gender you are whatever multicultural background you have you should be able to access physical activity and sport in your local area and that's something I think we can do some more work on.

Magnus 51:19

What do you think we're missing from a leadership perspective and what do you think the main skill set is around leadership?

Sarah 51:26

In sport I would say it's being open-minded and with that that capacity to listen and bring in and distill diverse perspectives by asking the right questions and not being shy to do that. I I think unfortunately in sport in our nation and probably many nations is the sector is too insular. It's just um the same old people and that's and I'm not there's great people in the sector don't get me wrong we've got 3000 volunteers in this nation it's amazing.

Magnus 52:01

That was literally a little bit of my point my my wife's involved in the finance manager for both Queensland Athletics in Queensland and put on her yeah it's it's so when you're dealing in that it's hard very hard so they're all volunteers but that's sort of what I look at it from a distance. It's almost like it lacks a leadership because nobody's really in charge and everybody's running around.

Don 52:23

They're doing their best but they don't have the leadership training behind what do you think is the most common mistake that um people make when they move into those leadership positions because we see some amazing athletes yeah that are coming into I'm not going to name any sports but it happens. Yeah but it often happens yeah but the the yeah it doesn't always work out.

Sarah 52:45

So what do you think the common mistakes are these uh leaders are making in sports I think it's definitely um the listening and and going back to the curiosity piece earlier and and learning, looking outside your sector for the benchmarks that really should be expected of your sector. So whether that's around ethics and integrity, systems processes, your attention to cyber security or um the latest technology coming in for high performance or or ensuring that you know you're not just talking about inclusion in sport and and the access for all you're actually walking that talk through the numbers that you know it's so it's paying attention to the details around the data and what that's telling you. Most importantly I would say stakeholder engagement like really listening to everyone out there in the best way you can but getting out there walking around whatever the club whatever the sport is whether it's community sport or it's professional sports and paralympic sports you know understanding as a leader what is going on everywhere in that ecosystem in which it operates listening to the athlete listening to the athlete who's on the pathway to become a professional or elite athlete listening to all the staff at all levels listening to those volunteers and watching observing I think is absolutely critical and there's not enough of that.

Don 54:10

Do you think we have too many athletes that are coming into administrative positions or because there's always that argument right there are professional administrators that might be very good at what they do but we seem to be putting more and more athletes into these administrative positions and we wonder why they fail. What what are your thoughts on that?

Sarah 54:30

I'm a huge fan of um employing athletes and former athletes but I do think they've got to have the right support mechanisms, the right um skills as well so you wouldn't want to put set up an athlete for failure by putting them into um the marketing team when they've got no understanding of of how marketing works and um some you know some study perhaps need training these things do you think those pathways are there that we'll both both this is a question for both of you you are both involved in this this piece do you think those pathways are there?

Will 55:05

Are we properly training these athletes to be prepared for the transition I think there is I think it comes back to the purpose right so I think there's potentially a lot of people that have never been in sport that are in sport that that they might necessarily be the right role for them as well. Like if you've just run a business and don't know anything about the sport potentially your role in the sport's not great either. So just be it's it's not just the athlete side I think it's the commercial side as well that we've got to get the balance right I think when it comes down to it's it's how the athlete the athletes shouldn't go into a sporting administration role because they've got nothing else. That's the wrong reason to get into sport. The reason to get into sport is because you're passionate about it but you also bring some ability and some knowledge base that can actually move the organisation forward adding value. As soon as it's about oh I just don't have anything else in my kit bag so therefore I'm just going to fall back in sport that's where there's issues I think that's what we need and it's the same with commercial people coming into sport. If they're just coming into because they're passionate about it and they just want to see the Lions win or the Broncos win that's the wrong reason to be getting involved in that sport. You think that's the wrong reason I do I think I think you need that that can be part of it. Yeah I think it's important like you can be passionate about it but you need to make sure that it's still I want the organisation to move forward for the right reasons not just to win a premiership. Like

Athletes In Admin And Transition Support

Will 56:25

yes premierships are great and that's awesome but there's plenty of really good sporting organisations that haven't won a premiership but that does that mean they're a bad organisation I would argue not so I think it's trying to get longevity as well because if you're too fixated on one premiership but you're not building the roots to be able to get that into it's a long term I think that's the that's the key thing if you look at the best sporting organisations in Australia they've got really really long term like the Lions when Fagues came they didn't win the premiership the next year did they like it's it's been a big journey like Geelong always always there because they've got a long term thing always the longest Melbourne Storm it's a long term vision. It's not like they do something that is going to you know flick a switch tomorrow.

Sarah 57:08

So I think that's what's important when they're those Sarah I do think so I leave the Minerva network here in Queensland which Will is familiar with uh and you know it's female business leaders mentoring pro bono female elite athletes nationally we've got a thousand athletes at six it's a fabulous thing. And as part of that we're trying to mentor them into the workforce post-career and we're setting them up while they're elite athletes to do that. And I think that's a great example of providing the right support mechanisms around them, encouraging them to study, encourage them to set up their own business or do an apprenticeship and relying on our networks, drawing on the networks again to uh tap them to employ these amazing athletes. So I think that's one part of it that articulating the incredible translated skills athletes and elite sport brings to any workplace it's a no-brainer and I know I'm preaching to the converted in you guys but seriously like they understand leadership they understand teamwork they understand work ethic commitment and most of all they understand resilience and unfortunately that's something that is probably lacking in a lot of people you know they haven't had adversity to truly test them and test um themselves you know so I think they bring a lot but on the flip side I think athletes also probably need some the humility dose many of them have that some may not coming out of professional sport perhaps sometimes where they have to start at the bottom and be willing to do that and and actually be open to learning. And whether that's in the classroom doing a degree and I think the university environment is really supporting them through athlete scholarships, more flexible learning, flexible pathways and all the rest I think that's that's a really good thing because they do need a bit of support in juggling the whole thing. But I I do think athletes also need to have the right mindset as well to commit to what they need to commit to which is a whole new learning it's it's you know nothing to do with sport really it's it's a commercial environment and it's it's high risk. It involves governance it involves people and stakeholder engagement which may not be their preferred skills to apply to Will's earlier point.

Don 59:23

You know maybe it's not right but it's it's having that self-assessment the diagnostics around whether it is um they're amenable to the sport sector So the right intention always mattered I think that's what both of you are trying to say right I think um you know talking about support networks we have to talk about the Australian Sports Foundation.

Australian Sports Foundation And Giving

Don 59:40

Yeah yeah amazing we've we've never heard of it until we had one of our I think it was our first episode where Cedric Dubler came and isn't he a lovely fellow I really like for listeners who's who's heard the name but don't know what it does, can you tell us in a few words who the Australian Sports Foundation is and uh why does it matter for sports people?

Sarah 1:00:03

Well it's it's actually been around for 40 years. So it's been um it was established back in the day to raise to fundraise money for Australian sport, mostly community sport and athletes and really a lot of that hasn't changed. So we are still the biggest fundraising vehicle that is tax deductible for Australian sport. And that includes athletes through to community sport right through to the professional sports big foundations and things. So you know last year for instance we had a record breaking year of fundraising which was $118 million for Australian sport. But of course with the home games coming this way we're looking at um doubling that by 2030 and more importantly making sure we set up a culture of giving nationally that benefits sport forever as a legacy it's needed more than ever actually do you cover off on every sport like all the team sports athletics swimming there is there anything is there a gap that's in the Australian Sports Foundation yeah it so we're sort of the enabling platform that enables anyone an athlete a sport a team to fundraise um for sport and then another thing that a lot of people don't know that we're actually um we see as a major growth opportunity here for the nation for sport is um the ability to you know articulate the social impacts of sport so programs through sport which might be um education programs through sport it could be um uh Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander pathways through sport gender equality facilities uh respect um through sport a lot of these um programs sport is actually a very heavy lifter on social impact in this nation so we're going to better articulate those stories to really appeal to some of the private ancillary funds that are quite big in this nation because at the moment I think unfortunately some of the narrative around sport and its power it's very much towards the economic side but in fact if we can articulate that actually it's a lever for social change, um social impacts, it's yeah it's more powerful in terms of investment.

Will 1:02:14

So you're the framework for like you're on the board for uh Ozzy Athletes Fund um and we got bottleneck so there's a there's a lot of really good platforms now for athletes to get support from so you're the framework that allows those platforms to raise their I mean there's sporting organisations that have set up in as their own DGR but the sports foundation is the perfect avenue if that can't fit because there's obviously certain legislation you have to fit under to be able to be part of that. So the Sports Foundation enables um us to get tax deductibility for those organisations. So it's great.

Don 1:02:49

Yeah it's awesome.

Will 1:02:50

It's it's everything from a junior athlete who's just standing up a lot of people don't know like even to represent the country used to be different in function with a Paramount golfer the other day who's gone to the what like World Championships in Scotland and he's he's like oh we've got my NSF page here given and it's like how good like just really he's representing Australia. Yeah and how much does it cost him out of pocket to be the I don't know how much he was I think he was trying to try to raise $50,000 for example but like the sports fan it still costs him out of pocket money but it like it gives him an opportunity on a platform to be able to raise the money tax deductively yeah it's awesome. Yeah um you know I'm as a masters athlete I'm I'm quite aware of of the importance of self-like you could get like if you were if you were going to a world athletics you know championships as a you know the the oldies one the masters he's ready for the oldies one is he yeah he's masters I think he's easy but if you were going for that and he's masters on this year that's down in November down the Masters. Oh the Pan Pacifics you're all talking about yeah but if you were if you were trying to go overseas and do that like you through the ASF you could raise money for it and people could pay help fund you tax deductible.

Magnus 1:04:04

Do you think with the 2032 games coming now it's easier to convince people to donate into sport versus donating into you know hospitals and those sort of other charities?

Sarah 1:04:14

I think well they're very different spaces. So you get in terms of the donor profiles we're seeing um it's people who are passionate about sport and um people who see community sport in particular as as a key lever for community their communities and connectedness thriving communities that and that's sort of their motivation. But then there's increasingly people who are the philanthropic funds and all the rest who are actually increasingly seeing in our statistics sport being a really impactful platform for national health, for gender equality for diplomacy and all these things. So I think that's a really interesting trend that I hope we can capitalize on and we're certainly increasing our efforts around show you know showcasing that opportunity around the home games. So I think sport has never been more visible in our lifetimes and so now's the time to actually get um that message out.

Don 1:05:10

Australian sport is still still relies so much on self-funding, family support and and you know volunteering. Do you think we are being honest about the unpaid labor and um you know the personal sacrifice some of these most of these athletes have to make it that's it's a really great question and I think there's still we we know about it because we're friends with some of these athletes and you hear about it.

Sarah 1:05:34

And if you work in sport you certainly know about it. But I think we need to get that story out um more to and I think through their campaigns they they certainly try to do that and we augment that through our storytelling but I think it's through the storytelling where people they don't realize what these athletes are going through. One of my good mates Rachel Watson well you would know her she's um a four times Paralympic swimmer medal winner. She's delightful she lives at Stanley, where I live down at the Bayside, she just got a Churchill scholarship. She's in Italy at the moment studying high performance swimming for paraswimming. But the story she has, you know, she's in a chair. She um to to just pay to go to world champs, to um the Paralympics, it's it's quite extraordinary. The cost, because she needs a carer to come on those flights, her own physio and all the rest. Just extraordinary stories that you don't even think of till you sit down and talk to some of these guys what they go through. But if her story gets out and and others, um, I think people will be really willing to depart with a little bit of cash to just make these things happen. And I think when you have um aspirational performers like that at the Paralympics, Olympics, um, and professional sports too, they just do so much for our or for our um the aspirational commitment to sport and exercise for young people. We know that from research actually. Um keeping people in education too, that's that's actually uh highly correlated with um undertaking sport. So there's a lot of stories that come out of that. It's worth investing in.

Will 1:07:11

Amazing. I think even and on the hospital thing. Like I think sport potentially keeps the hospital cost down if we get it. Exactly playing it. So I think it's a proactive solution.

Don 1:07:20

Especially in the master sports, like at a certain age. I think if you could invest in one single thing that reduces that dependence on public health, what an amazing opportunity. And we don't see that enough, right? And that's that's one of the biggest things.

Sarah 1:07:34

We've got this epidemic of childhood obesity coming our way, and it is gonna be a tremendous strain as well as the aging population on the whole system. So if we don't get people active in any way, it doesn't even have to be organized sport, but it could be a park run, it could be just a walk with friends, it could be a bike ride, a hike, whatever it is, but just getting them out there is is so important.

Don 1:07:56

I'm just gonna bring it back to you, Sarah. Um, with all the responsibilities and everything that you've got going on, um you were just appointed as the chair of the Australian Sports Foundation, right? Um what made you say yes?

Sarah 1:08:10

I just I I actually it resonated when we talked about the values earlier, um, whether you can make an impact, uh, whether it is time well spent and that you'd enjoy it. It ticked all of those boxes. It's a great board.

Don 1:08:23

Yeah.

Sarah 1:08:24

I've got a fantastic new CEO CEO as well. But it's mainly just the the mission. I mean, who doesn't want to build um community sport in this nation and make it accessible for all? That's that's what that's about. I care deeply about that. The the power of sport, I know it's a hackney term, but it's something that you see you see in action every day when you work in this sector. And so I think if we can get that story out there to raise more money for that, it's it's such a a high impact, low-cost investment when you look at it to what we were just talking about earlier.

Magnus 1:09:00

Where do you see it in five years? Where would you like to see it in five years?

Sarah 1:09:03

The ASF. Yep. Um still the most trusted, um, highest fundraising platform for Australian sport. And you know, that's we don't do the fundraising, that's our partners. So that's all our um big and small partners, right down to an individual athlete in a local community club, uh, right through the big foundations, the AOC um are absolutely on board, as are um the ASC as well. So I just think it's a it's a great ecosystem, and we're all working together to make that happen.

Women’s Sport Growth And Fixing Algorithms

Will 1:09:35

Just I just I really want to touch on you touch on the Minerva Network, but female sport and how many sports, yeah. How important that is within society, but also within the actual sports themselves. There's always this talk talk about oh, you know, the women's league costs us a lot of money and costs, but what what don't I suppose society or what does commercial business not understand how big an impact female sport and getting behind female sport has an impact commercially on the the big like society?

Sarah 1:10:05

Yeah, it's a big question, Will. We need another podcast.

Don 1:10:08

But look, um we like asking the big questions. Yeah.

Sarah 1:10:12

We I'm just so excited about how far women's sport has come, you know, in terms of the visibility, in terms of the investment. So that's a that's a tremendous and the crowds, you know, it's a it's a really tremendous um move in the right direction. But we do have a long way to go. We do have a long way to go, um, I would say structurally, policy-wise, um, equality-wise, uh, visibility-wise, and I think most of all to just a deeper understanding of the commerciality of it. And if we want to wear just the commercial hat here, not just the social impact and visibility kind of um very real attraction of women's sport, but over here the commercial hat, I actually think it is definitely an under-leveraged asset. And we're hearing that in some of the reports that are being released by some of the big hedge funds, Goldman Sachs recently, JP Morgan, have all um allocated an asset class towards not just sport but but women's professional sports. I think that's a nod in the right direction because they're seeing it as um on a trajectory of growth. Um, when you look at some nations where maybe traditionally, culturally, women didn't play sport or follow sport, they're starting to open that up. Uh, I think that's um a fantastic thing. So it signifies growth in numbers, in participation and fandom. It's also um something that really annoys me when you're assessing as a you know a sponsor or someone who can fund um sport, you sort of look at all the above-line metrics around sponsorship, you know, how many you know, clicks did we get, how much, you know, how often was our brand mentioned and what was the valence. But in fact, women's sport, um, because they've had to be quite um uh entrepreneurial, I suppose, in how they engage, the girls actually, there's quite a lot of data suggesting they engage um more often and more deeply with their fans. Uh, and you've only got to look at some of their social media walls. I've actually started a project on this um with some of the guys at MIT. Um, looking at this, they they seem to be engaging a lot more meaningfully, and I think those metrics need to be captured by sponsors, and when they properly capture them, that commerciality of the women's sport will be more hygiene.

Magnus 1:12:29

I've heard exactly the same thing. Yeah, you bring up the engagement perspective. So when you look at it in the male sport, like you said, there's X amount, then what you pay for that sponsorship, but then what you can actually get at a less than a third of that only half value. Yeah, 100% good value based based off that engagement. Because there's been a couple of I guess female sports recently that's um crowded a lot of immediate attention. And do you think it's that do you think it is just a a little movement, or do you think we've actually gone past that and it's real structural shift now into women's sport escalating?

Sarah 1:13:03

I I think it's beyond a move, a little movement. I think it's a big movement, I think it's a cultural movement. Uh we go back to, I think one of the biggest moments in this nation was of course the Matildas and the quarterfinal yeah, it was just a ma I was there. That was amazing. How much of the question did that grab across the country? Like it was. Oh, yeah. It stopped the nation more than the Melbourne Cup, more than anything else. It stopped the nation. Got goosebumps now. Men, women, children, it was fabulous. And that it filled stadiums, all those things. It got the ratings, uh, the sponsors were all happy. So it shows a proof of concept and it showed a cultural movement beyond um, you know, just a small movement in sport, however you want to look at it. I think the question, though, we need to ask honestly as a nation there is what have we done with it? Have we um realized the kind of legacy that certainly had an enormous promise at that moment?

Magnus 1:14:00

They capitalised on it.

Sarah 1:14:01

Yeah. And I I'm not sure. I actually think we need to really um re-examine that, particularly in tough economic times, uncertainty, big decisions and trade-offs being made in sport. I I I really think we need to be thinking about what is the legacy for gender that we got off that particular um major mega event, and what will we get off the back of our home games around that as well.

Don 1:14:27

Aaron Powell Do you think we're being fair on the female athletes? Our expectations of a female athlete is you know they still have to maintain their normal livelihood until we get to that commercial point of you being independent. Plus, you're expecting them to be really good role models, activists, um, and then commercial entities on top of that. Um is that too much of a burden to have? Like you look at some of the high-profile male athletes, do they have that same expectations? I don't think so.

Sarah 1:14:57

Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. There's still a lot of inequality in terms of the pay and some of the but the pay has come a long way. And I we have to be conscious of that. Um a lot of the sports are investing a lot in um the women's sports, but on their metrics, perhaps um some of it isn't paying off for them. But this is where we need to tell these stories and and adjust the algorithms. That would be the other point in ensuring the commerciality does add up, that there's more content. We need a content dump of women's sport across um the entire internet to make sure that the search engines show up women's sport when you search.

Magnus 1:15:35

So that's what do you think the girls out there, what do they need to hear, see, or experience to get involved and stay in sport longer?

Sarah 1:15:45

Well, I think they are staying in sport. I think there's a lot of really exciting pathways they're building for women uh in sport, um, from athlete through to coaching now, leadership. I think that's a really that's a good move. And as I said, you know, some of the the areas around pay and childcare in particular, superannuation are gradually being addressed. Um not in entirely though, and it's it's not equal yet.

Will 1:16:11

I think we can share the love a bit more. I think the females, like I think they're I think that's what I was gonna do. I think coming back coming back to the the male, like you know, AFL is probably a good example where the males get paid way more than the females because theoretically their can their product is more commercially watched and there's more revenue from it. But I sort of go, well, I still think we could share that love a bit more. Like I think the males could, and there'd be probably a few people arguing me here, but I think they could give up for their organization, they could give up a bit of love to give the females a bit more. And as a whole, the organization moves forward and sport moves for. Like I think we're all part of sport.

Don 1:16:45

How are you finding that with uh women's AFL? You've been a huge uh proponent of that, with with bringing making that sort of a success and what a success it's been.

Sarah 1:16:57

There's been different approaches by different clubs across the league, I would say. One of the things I'm proud of at the Lions is we were able to uh build a a completely gender-equal, physical, high performance training facility out at Brighton Home's Arena. It's fabulous. The day the girls walked in there for the first time, they cried uh because they couldn't believe it. That because all of their careers out in community footy land, they were sharing uh training facilities and change rooms, toilets, all that kind of stuff with the guys, and they were lucky to get access to it when they needed it. Um so it yeah, they were used to that, and then suddenly they've got this completely gender-equal environment. So I think that has actually been surprising for us because it's translated to a cultural change in the club, uh, filtering right over to the guys as well, where they're going, there's a respect, there's um these girls, and there there absolutely is a mutual respect between them because the girls love having the guys around because they they look at them and say, Oh wow, you know, they're these are naked.

Will 1:17:59

I was down in the Suns like last week um doing some work with them, and there's girls and boys all around. Like it's not like you don't sort of see it's just the males, and then there's a couple females here, it's just covered in both.

Don 1:18:10

We're gonna run out of time soon, but um we we can't you know let you go without talking about the Olympics. But before we get there, I want to ask one question about women's sports again. What is the next major battle in women's sports that we are not paying enough attention to?

Sarah 1:18:24

I think well there's probably well, there's quite a few, actually. Um is I think women's visibility in the broadcast and leadership space. There's been a recent report undertaken nationally here where we're seeing a declining rate of women representation in governance in sport in this nation. And you can mash up all the stats as much as you want, but at the end of the day, uh women on boards of the um the professional sports, the high-profile sports, uh, the better funded sports, uh there's not as many as yeah, you might get in maybe the lesser funded sports um volunteer sort of boards and things. So that that's one thing I think. And in terms of media visibility, I don't think there's enough uh female sports journalists um who are visible during big broadcasts. I think that's big that's there's yeah, not enough of that. We need more of that. And the third one is fixing the algorithms. That's the bit of things a lot of people aren't realizing that traditionally high performance research has focused on male samples. We need a whole lot of research to flood um the you know the various points where you look at the data on high performance on the internet and all the rest and science repositories, and then also reporting, just the content. We need to uh flood the internet literally with content about women's sport uh to make sure they rank highly in the searches because that translates to commercial outcomes.

Brisbane 2032 Legacy, Access, And Trust

Don 1:19:54

Wow. Olympics.

Sarah 1:19:56

It it is the Olympics, yeah.

Don 1:20:00

Um not that long to go now, right? Um Will you're involved in the Olympics as well for uh coming up? What do you think where do you think we are right now?

Will 1:20:09

I think we're you think we're well I've got I've got a question for Sarah. We'd throw around legacy a lot, like it's a it's a bit of a buzzword, but for you, what's what does legacy mean on the end of the Olympics? How do how do you see what what's what do you really want out of this Olympics to to get Brisbane, you know, that that next step?

Sarah 1:20:28

I I just think it's so exciting. I'm I'm on board it's for this ride. I think it's just so it's so great for our region and our country, Oceana in general. I think it's like legacy, yeah. Traditionally people sort of thought of it as a kind of full stop in the research as well, actually on legacy, but it's actually just a long, long tail end, you hope, where, you know, way after the event, uh there's a lot of um net positive benefits that accrue, both economically and socially. I think obviously economically it has to be a success. I think there's just so much scrutiny around the cost of these things, even under the new norms. Um, taxpayers now are, you know, given the economic times that obviously were not predicted at the time we won the bid, uh obviously that will only enhance scrutiny, I imagine, around this kind of an event. But that being said, I think it's absolutely able to be delivered on time and um fantastically in terms of experience and all the rest with um the right economics behind it. So I think that's the first bit. Second bit is um we do have to perform well on the podium. So the athletes and their performance matters. We need to be investing in that. Uh one of the reasons is it brings great joy to the nation to see that. But it also translates to a longer-term legacy, which is around trust in sport. It's also around pride. And we talk about pride in legacy, around the regional pride and all the rest, citizen pride. But uh it's a really real thing and it can absolutely endure. We know that from some of the studies on legacy of other host regions. So I think that's something uh we do need. And some of the social impacts, I think, out of this, it's a phenomenal opportunity when we talk about uh gender equality in sport. I would love to see that dial move straight into that, you know, as a huge outcome long term for this nation around gender equality for sport. Um, and of course, it's the Olympics and Paralympics. So ensuring that having the visibility of the Paralympics here in town means we really get ready for that in terms of the legacy for people with mobility issues, people with disability who are visiting our region, who live and work in our region, making sure we're the most accessible region in the world. I would love that. Uh, and that's probably you know one of the things that came out of the Paris Olympics. It probably wasn't as accessible as it could have been. Um, that would be a great thing for our town to actually have going forward long term.

Don 1:23:03

How important is 2028 before we get to 2020?

Sarah 1:23:08

Hugely important. It's the handover. I've already, yeah, I have ideas around the handover, but anyway.

Don 1:23:13

Go for it.

Sarah 1:23:14

You know, we need maybe Bluey and Mickey involved. And anyway, but yeah, no, look, I I think it is important. I think, you know, there's a lot of learnings. I think that's really interesting in these mega events, um, host region to host region, and even non-host regions in country learn a lot from each other on how they can capitalize and leverage. So um we'll learn a lot out of LA, and particularly um, you know, for in Tokyo, we learnt a lot out of pandemics and how to handle no crowds at the Olympics, who would have thought? But Japan handled that so well, and so we are prepared now for that kind of a scenario. But out of LA, I think, and even the FIFA World Cup this year in that region, we're going to learn a lot about security. Security is probably the one that's under talked about uh for the 32 games, but um, from what our defense forces are modeling, governments are modeling, is we will be needing to embrace that sort of level of security. So I think that will be a big learning. And not only that, I think diplomacy, the IOC, IPC are very good at that. Yeah. So I think we'll learn a lot out of what occurs there around LA twenty eight and how to probably do it well, we hope, where most nations will be competing and it's it's a time of peace that is really visible for the world when it's a good idea.

Don 1:24:34

This is gonna be this is gonna be a loaded question.

Sarah 1:24:36

Oh, okay.

Don 1:24:38

Are most nations gonna be competing?

Sarah 1:24:41

In LA 28? Oh, I think so, yeah. And I'm not involved in those sorts of discussions, so I you know. But uh absolutely, yeah.

Don 1:24:50

How do you think it's gonna go with everything that's happening in the political space? Um, do you think politics should have any place in sports?

Sarah 1:25:00

I think anyone who says it doesn't, they're kidding themselves.

Will 1:25:03

Well, you only have to look at the Paralympics and look all the American athletes having their opinions, you know. Like I found that really interesting actually, how much the American athletes were willing to just say, you know, this is what we think, this is what we think and whether you believe or don't agree with it. I think and I think as you said, like it's an opportunity for like two weeks where there's it doesn't really matter what else is happening in the world. No, it's all you know, it's peace and love, and we're all doing this for the right reasons. We just think we get around everyone, it doesn't really matter what else is happening. So I think I think even if the US is hosting it, it it'll be this, as Sarah said, it'll be the it's about this book.

Sarah 1:25:41

Leading up to the event, yeah, um, possibly post-event, there'll be a lot of you know, discussions and meetings to ensure that that piece is realized during that time. There's a lot that goes into these kind of mega events. Um even the safety and security of certain teams traveling, which we will see for this year as well as um I think Iran's playing in the World Cup and everything. Like it's quite a bit.

Don 1:26:05

There's been a lot of controversy, so it'd be interesting.

Sarah 1:26:08

Yeah, so it's a really interesting um it but I think the politics um are they're relevant. Yeah, but I you know, you I don't underestimate the power of sport in that respect and sports diplomacy impact it gets to be. It's a really positive impact in building international relations through that.

Don 1:26:26

So let's say we had a very successful 2032, we we can get past that. Who do you think is going to be better off in 2033 in Brisbane and in Australia?

Sarah 1:26:39

Well, I think it's it's not a success and the legacy has not been delivered if the residents uh are not feeling better off. So if they're not sort of seeing um economic investment, headquarters being based here, increased trade, um, enhanced brand for tourism and trust internationally, I think that would be I think residents would be uh much better off, not only here, but the whole of brand Australia. Uh brand Brisbane and um Queensland very much on the world map. We we would see um Oceania, I think it's an Oceana Olympics. So I think hopefully the Pacific um very much involved and economically benefiting. So I think the locals and I I hope sport, going back to what we talked about earlier, community sport, investment in sport, um, athlete pathways, that anyone who wants to have a crack at sport, whether it's just you know amateur or like me or professional and elite, can can do that in this nation. That would be a tremendous legacy.

Magnus 1:27:43

I I love your energy that you've got behind all of this. Do you what what do you find the public perception is right now? And is there anything that you can do or we can do to be able to try and build extra trust to get people to really buy into these Olympics?

Sarah 1:27:56

It's it's a hard one, I think, because it's it's often it's a lot. Game by definition, right? We've got what is it six years now, and uh it's people just see what's in front of them each day right now. Yep, and we have to respect that. But I do think you've got to sort of have trust in the process. Um, and our our national ability in delivering mega events, whether they're cultural or sporting, is is amazing. We are known on the world stage for it. And not just the delivery, it's actually all the planning, security, disaster responsiveness, all these things that surround some of the risk around those events. Um, as a nation, it's culturally embedded. I have faith in that, that actually we do love our sport. We love the joys that it brings. Um, and I think it's all in the a lot of the narrative and the articulation from those leading it. And I think they're doing a good job, actually. So I I do think if we articulate some of those benefits in the more dispersed areas, in regional areas, for example, around the supply chain and the the capacity they'll have to um realize real economic benefit, um, that that will bring everyone along. I'm I'm quite an optimist on that front.

Saying No, Rapid Fire, And Closing

Don 1:29:11

I think we're gonna have to wind down pretty soon, but I want to ask one thing. You're you're clearly someone who says yes to meaningful things. Have you mastered the art of saying no yet?

Sarah 1:29:21

Oh, probably not. Um but I'm not a big fan of saying no, to be honest. I I sort of think my default is a lot of things.

Don 1:29:29

There's got to be a limit of how many boards you can sit, right?

Sarah 1:29:31

Yeah, yeah. No, there's time, time is the big time and attention. There's always limited capacity, and you've got to, if you sign up for something, you've got to be 100%, no question about it. So, or you're letting down people who've asked you, you know. So I think that's really important to to keep in mind. But I'm a bit of a default, yes, unless there's a reason I just can't, due to time and capacity. Because I've I've found I've it's led to a lot of great adventures, seriously, where you just went, Oh, it's probably not a good time, it's never a good time. It's never a good time. And it's probably a bit risky, or it's probably I probably won't, you know, succeed in delivering what I'm trying to do. But what the hell? Just get in there and have fun.

Magnus 1:30:12

Do you have do you have like a little bit of a decision-making framework? I know that as I've gotten older, just around some of the values in particular, if it's just something that I'm really aligned with, you know, not necessarily as a monetary side, but is there anything that you do that you just ask yourself a couple of questions before you make that yes?

Sarah 1:30:28

Yeah, it probably is a little bit about, you know, can like what I said earlier, you know, would it be fun? Are they good people? Like there's a no decades rule I have. Can I say that?

Magnus 1:30:38

Yep, yeah, absolutely can.

Sarah 1:30:40

And can I add value? Like, can I is it aligned? I suppose that's similar to your framework, Magnus. Yeah. Can I add value? Yep.

Magnus 1:30:50

All righty. Is it quick for our question? Time Don.

Don 1:30:52

Yeah, I think um we could keep going forever, right? This is one of those um episodes where we can just talk forever. Um yeah, we would love to get you up. There's this research paper that um you did on esports, so we would love to get you into a whole episode to talk about that.

Sarah 1:31:10

Um, but I think it would be fun as well. It's so interesting that.

Don 1:31:13

Yeah, and and yeah, there's some amazing findings in there. But I'll I think I'm gonna hand over to you, mate. Like I think we need to wrap this up. Um, otherwise uh this will be like a three-hour podcast.

Magnus 1:31:25

Are you ready? I am, Magnus. What's the one thing that you have mastered that's got nothing to do with sport or education?

Sarah 1:31:35

Oh probably Yeah, sniffing out a good meal around town.

Magnus 1:31:44

I love food, good food. What's the one thing you're still trying to master?

Sarah 1:31:50

Oh, there's so many things. So acoustic guitar, ukulele, um Spanish, and there's oh probably well, yeah.

Magnus 1:32:05

We we need to get an acoustic guitar. We need to get some of the teachers. But that's not sport. But is that sport? Yeah, that's sport. What's the worst advice that you've ever received?

Sarah 1:32:18

Oh, don't rock the boat.

Magnus 1:32:20

What book conversation teacher or experience has changed how you see the world?

Sarah 1:32:26

Oh, there's been many along the way. I've been really lucky to have a lot of mentors and sponsors and people I've come across who've just taught me so much. Um, one of the I've had two places that have taught me a lot. And one of those is the Kenyan slums, and one of them is the are the Indian slums, where I've spent some time. I won't go into the details, but it was a humanitarian immersion thing. Um, I learned a lot about poverty. And now when when I, you know, people talk about poverty, I've seen it. And you and to meet and talk to people in those areas where and what what they do, how entrepreneurial they are, how energized they are, how optimistic they are, it's extraordinary. So I sort of think, yeah, that really changed my perspective on what I thought was poverty.

Magnus 1:33:17

Just quickly, I was in Nepal up in that region a couple of years ago, and that was my first time in those sort of third world countries, and that really lit me up where you got these kids in the middle of absolutely nowhere, and just how happy and content they are. Yeah. They have literally nothing. They're kicking rocks around, and we don't the opportunity.

Don 1:33:35

I grew up in a third world country and you know, I traveled a fair bit. The opportunity cost of not investing in those as you said, we we treat them as poverty and below a certain line, and yeah, I totally agree with you.

Sarah 1:33:47

It's huge, yeah. And that altruistic dollars where they should be spent it, should be spent in some of those areas because yeah, it's quite extraordinary. The um when you when you see it, uh yeah.

Magnus 1:33:59

What's a belief you once held strongly that you've now changed your mind about?

Sarah 1:34:05

Oh I change my mind all the time. Am I allowed to do that?

Don 1:34:09

Yeah, I think it's called science.

Sarah 1:34:10

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's um well, one is longevity. I've been reading up a lot of the science of longevity, and that's fascinating. And Magnus, you would know heaps about this, but um, it's changed my perspective around a number of things, you know.

Magnus 1:34:25

So I just finished a book on that. We'll talk about that after um who's one person living or dead that you'd love to have dinner with?

Sarah 1:34:35

Oh, can I choose two? Yes, mum and dad. Yeah, I miss them every day. It's really funny, even when it's been a while and you just miss them. You want to tell them stuff, give them an update, and they're just not there.

Magnus 1:34:46

It's horrible. Final question complete this sentence. Mastery is never ending.

Will 1:34:54

Great answer.

Magnus 1:34:55

That's a true answer. It's been absolutely awesome. It's been an absolute privilege. Thank you.

Sarah 1:34:59

Oh, likewise, getting to know you guys some more and just really enjoyed the conversation. What's it not to enjoy around sport? Education, sports, education, stories, it's fun, governance.

Don 1:35:11

Always a pleasure.

Magnus 1:35:12

Thanks for the invitation. Hope you enjoyed this exciting episode of the Mastering Podcast. If you got value from today's conversation, hit that subscribe button now and share this episode with a friend. Until next time.