Bald Ambition
An expert in consultative selling talks to specialists and shares the latest insights in branding, entrepreneurship, business technology, and sheer grit and motivation.
Bald Ambition
Matthew Whyatt Brings Consultative Torque to Tech
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Matthew Whyatt has spent decades selling technology to giant corporations, governments, and industries so tangled in bad processes and duct-taped infrastructure that half the employees are basically performing digital exorcisms just to keep the systems alive another week. In this episode of Bald Ambition, Matthew joins Mookie Spitz for a sprawling, sharp-edged conversation about SaaS panic, AI hysteria, consultative selling, corporate paralysis, and why most tech companies are accidentally talking themselves out of million-dollar deals.
The discussion starts with the bloodbath in SaaS. Salesforce gets hammered. DocuSign stumbles. Every LinkedIn prophet with a ring light insists that “vibe coders” and AI agents are about to replace entire software companies by Thursday afternoon. Matthew calls BS. Big companies are not handing mission-critical infrastructure to something stitched together over a weekend by a guy running espresso shots into Claude at 3am... Trust still matters. Relationships still matter. Distribution still matters. And most executives buying enterprise software are less interested in technical wizardry than avoiding career suicide if the implementation explodes.
That leads into the real meat of the conversation: how enterprise sales actually happen. Matthew explains why his strategy at Tech Torque involves consultative discovery sessions that expose operational pain points clients barely understand themselves. Warehousing managers fighting new systems. Technical founders drowning prospects in jargon. Businesses trapped in “that’s how we’ve always done it” thinking while ancient Excel spreadsheets quietly run the company from the shadows. Instead of leading with features, Matthew teaches SaaS firms how to sell outcomes, reduce fear, and navigate the political minefield inside large organizations where one skeptical middle manager can vaporize a seven-figure deal.
Mookie and Matthew also get into the psychological side of technology disruption: why AI simultaneously terrifies and seduces executives, why white-collar workers suddenly look more vulnerable than tradespeople, and how companies lose themselves chasing hype cycles instead of solving obvious problems sitting directly in front of them. There’s a hilarious detour into Australian culture, rowing, American competitiveness, social class, and why the United States still feels like a place where people can wake up one morning and decide to reinvent their lives from scratch.
Underneath the jokes, profanity, and mutual abuse sits a pretty brutal insight: AI can absolutely help companies move faster. It can also help them execute dumb ideas at breathtaking speed. If leadership is confused, disconnected from customers, and addicted to buzzwords, no machine is going to save them. The businesses that survive this era will be the ones that actually understand their people, understand their clients, and stop mistaking technical complexity for intelligence.
The Guest
Matthew Whyatt is the founder and Chief Sales Strategist of Tech Torque Systems, where he helps B2B software and technology companies cut through hype, sharpen their messaging, and close bigger enterprise deals. He launched his first software company at 22 and has spent more than 25 years building businesses across software, IT, consultancy, and franchising—including companies generating over $100 million in sales. Before founding Tech Torque, Matthew served as CEO of Velocity Sales Training LLC alongside renowned sales expert Bob Urichuck, helping develop sales systems used by Fortune 500 companies, government agencies, and international organizations.
His Company
Hello and welcome to the Bald Ambition Podcast. I'm your bald host, Mookie Spitz, and I'm thrilled to have the founder of Tech Tork on the pod today, Mr. Matthew Wyatt. Wyatt with an H.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01We spent the extra money, got the H.
SPEAKER_03That's good.
SPEAKER_00That's good. Is it like quiet? Quiet. That's right. Quiet. All right.
SPEAKER_01It's a whoa quiet, quiet.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01So hopefully you're not quiet today because we can't wait to hear about what you're doing for SaaS companies in terms of boosting their sales potential. I've had several guests doing doing sales. They're plugging in AI, they're plugging in the tech. Sounds like you're torquing with the tech. And I'd love to hear what you do, how you're different, and how you're moving the needle. Because I know SaaS companies are having a hard time right now. Take a look at the US stock exchange. Woo! What a ride for Salesforce. Getting brutalized, aren't they? Having a crisis. They're struggling because um agentic AI technology. There's a fear that the bots are gonna be doing this work for companies and bye-bye subscription model. So let us have it, Matthew. What what the hell is going on?
SPEAKER_03Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the bold ambition uh podcast. I'm almost there. Like it's uh I've I uh I'm very very close. Like this is all just uh you know smoke and mirrors at the moment.
SPEAKER_01It's all relative, Matthew. When you when you've got a baseline at zero, then uh a little bit of fuzz like what you have now. And if if if you're on audio, give you the picture of a of a little a little crop top there. And if you're on video, it becomes instantaneously self-evident that Matthew's got an edge.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Gold just a slight one. Well, look, you know, when it comes to uh just thinking of I've been thinking about this whole issue when it comes to SaaS and SaaS businesses getting getting hit by the stock market. You know, the stock market is not really a great barometer of business success because really it's about sentiment. Uh so uh, but I'm not an analyst, uh I uh I don't even play one on TV, so I can't really speak very intelligently about it. What I do know is that um is the fact that when it comes to selling and marketing, when it comes to growing a business today, really the the key factor is no longer features. Features are no longer a feature in the sale. And I speak with a lot of clients, and we're just about to release this feature, do that that that upgrade, this API, whatever it might be. And at the end of the day, they're still going to be competing against outcomes for clients. And so they're competing for outcomes for clients, but also what they're what large businesses are not going to be trusting their most important data or data. Uh, sorry for my Australian accent. Uh it's um, I've only been in America for about nine months, but uh, you know, so uh they're not gonna ex they're not going to trust their most important data to something that was vibe coded over the weekend with more security holes you could drive a truck through. So so the two key factors that SaaS businesses still have is the fact that they have got trust and the fact that they've got distribution. And those two factors together will continue to see those businesses succeed. Obviously, the uh the the lower end of the market who don't really want to pay the$80 or$100 a month, they're not gonna pay it. But corporate, anything above$20 million is not gonna be chucking Salesforce out to get some vibe-coded thing that can, you know, from Claw. That's just not gonna happen at the moment. Now, um, Salesforce is is trying to keep up, obviously. They're doing headless stuff, they're they're really trying to drive it forward. It's I think it's a I think the media are really good at uh radicalizing people. Uh and so really it depends on how you want to um which side of the political divide, financial divide, business divide, whatever way you want to sit there is they find themselves in a situation where they're just gonna be uh it's a good headline, right? So um it it sells newspapers. I agree with you.
SPEAKER_01Can I add a third to that, which is experience within the vertical? Oh man. So so you you mentioned distribution as being a factor, and coupled with that, there's expertise. You need to know the business environment, you need to know your clients, it's a client relationship, business, it's not just plugging in the bots to your point. So I I I agree with you. I think it's a little bit hyped. The hysteria has been a little bit heavy, and the whiplash shows because stock prices are going back to more or less where they were.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's right. And look, you know, I can grow my own tomatoes. I don't. I go to Wegmans and buy them. So, much like AI, you can build your own bots and it can do all of these things, but you know what, there's professionals out there that can do the job probably more effectively at a better price point. You know, I um I found myself caught up in the excitement. I got myself an account with Lovable. I have a um uh a product that I use and I've been paying three or four hundred dollars a month for for about a year and a half. I thought, you know what, this is not that smart, so I can do this myself. And so I got myself a$50 a month subscription, then I needed the API, which is$200 a month, then I needed this thing over here, which was another$85 a month, then I needed to actually learn how to deploy things through Drusal and this and that. And I found myself spending days and days on building this thing to save myself$300, and it made no sense. So um, so really I uh I did uh I think products like Lovable and Base 44 and those sort of products are gonna find themselves while still continuing to gain new clients, they will they will burn existing clients just as quickly because you can't you you're not gonna be able to deploy at scale. And I've been I started my first tech business in 1999.
SPEAKER_01That's the Yahoo! the Yahoo.com era.
SPEAKER_03I I started in the dot-com era, absolutely, and I loved it. I surfed that wave for for for a while, and we were in a living in Australia at the time, and I was in an industry that wasn't terribly affected by the by the bust, so we we kept surfing that wave for many years. So really it's um it it the the the trust that you can build with a client base and then deliver over and over and over, because recalcitrance is a factor when it comes to business and recalcit. So so really it's it's also when I'm dealing with large corporates and I'm helping my clients sell to large corporates, it's very rarely about better, faster, cheaper. It's it's it's almost actually, I'm gonna say it's hasn't for a business if you're selling to a business over$50 million revenue or higher, if you're selling if you're selling to a government agency, city council, any of that type of stuff, it's no longer about better, faster, cheaper. It's about looking good and covering your ass. I'm sorry to um to be close to swearing there. Because the the people making the purchasing decisions are not they're not playing with really their own money. The people making purchasing decisions are worried about their career, and they're worried about what the board's gonna say if it blows up. And uh, and Mookie, you and I are old enough now to remember that we used to there used to be a um a saying uh you nobody gets fired for buying IBM.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but look what happened to IBM. Eventually, but none of those people got fired for buying it. And so, really, you know, so when you so when you're selling, you need to demonstrate that even if it so because because okay, for example, a Toyota, nobody's gonna get fired for buying a Toyota because toy because there's so much evidence that a Toyota is gonna last forever, it's gonna last so long, it's gonna be resold to the Middle East and then be used over there. So it's it's gonna be it's gonna be you're gonna have this car forever until you actually decide to sell it, it's not gonna break on you. So, what that means is that nobody's gonna get so if you have a product or service that you've got so much evidence out there in the marketplace that demonstrates that you're an excellent choice, even if it blows up, it's no longer the product or service, it's oh well that's an anomaly. And that's where the trust comes in.
SPEAKER_01I'm aligned. I think that the hype and hysteria, by definition, was overblown. I agree with you that the SaaS companies aren't going away and gonna be replaced by a bunch of vibe coders in a garage. And uh, I think that the client relationship and expertise within each respective vertical is what really carries the day. So you could vibe code the hell out of something. And from a technical vantage point, to your point, it could potentially increase efficiency, cut costs, and do everything the SaaS more or less does. But what you're losing is that expertise, you're losing the accountability, and you're losing the client relationship. So this AI transformation is not only technical, and it's contingent on disruption having an impact on staff, on management. These are human beings in a very human environment, and you can't just flip the switch and expect the bots to do everything. Correct. SaaS is here to stay one way or another.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but I and I'm but I'm not a Luddite at all. I I am the sort of person that looks at the market and look, tries to look over the hill a little bit, and you know, I've grown my business, but I haven't needed to bring on any new staff in the last year or so because I am taking bits and pieces of the production of, you know, in my business and uh production in my clients' businesses, and I no longer have to employ a, I don't have to employ new people for every new client. I have the existing high-skilled people who can manage multiple clients. And I and I have built AI inside my business that can perform the activities that I might have done in the past that would take me away from new client acquisition. So uh whilst I have neither I have not downsized anybody uh or or I've removed any roles, I've just not increased any roles because I've become more efficient.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, scalability is one of the benefits. And to your point, it's a hybrid approach. You understand the client, you understand the business, you understand what's going on, you provide that consultative relationship. It's not features, it's the benefits, it's the relationship. And then you take advantage of the technology without rejecting it or selling your soul to it. So let's be specific. We've been talking in the abstract, and I think we're trending with all the lines that make sense, and our listeners and viewers are likely familiar with this, but what do you bring at tech torque to differentiate your value proposition and integrate this hybridized approach that you're talking about?
SPEAKER_03Well, simply put, uh, I've been in the seat of my clients. Uh, that's really the the part that I have lived in. I started my first tech business at 22, grew that to a reasonable level of success, and have sold that off and and built it more, sold that off, took a year off to live in Bali, uh in Indonesia, and then came back. And I've been asked, and I was just I was sort of brought back to help a friend out to fix their sales team because I was I was because their sales team was lagging, and I found a little niche in doing that, and then I started to realize that people really didn't want the sales piece of what I was selling in Australia. What they wanted, what people think they need sales, they think they need marketing help. They actually need selling help. So marketing is the aeroplane. If you've got kids out there listening, you know you have to make the aeroplane noise to feed them their vegetables. Marketing is the airplane noise I make to feed them sales. So um, you know, come for the come for the leads and stay for the actual education how to close a deal. So um, so we help our clients. So typically we help software and technology businesses sell more to the right people. And we live at that strategy level. Uh, doesn't, you know, I don't talk about we we deploy you know hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Facebook ads, and we deploy, you know, Google and whatever other activities that might occur, uh, but it has to be within the context of the customer. You know, I've got a customer who is one of the very largest uh ERP providers, uh enterprise resource planning providers in Australia. Um, I've got another one who's an investment bank in New York. I've got another one, you know, I'm I'm across all these different businesses. And what's interesting about that is that there are some similarities in the differences. There's similarities in because sales and business is not a B2B or a B2C exercise. It's a H to H. It's a human to human. Businesses don't buy things, people buy things, and so that's why marketing still works, why marketing is not math. There is a function of math marketing that is math, there's a function of selling that is math, but at the end of the day, it's still a human buying something to extend their career or achieve a KPI.
SPEAKER_01Let's get tactical for a second, because I understand your strategy, but what exactly do you do? Because you're describing a multi-channel or digital strategy for a company with bad buys, with content strategy, with channel affinity and all that. That sounds like media to me. And then I've had guests who supervise and better manage actual sales forces, you know, human to human, as you mentioned, using AI to help manage better profile salespeople, that kind of thing. So can you can you describe your tactics so we better understand your strategy? Where do you fit in this mix of sales, sales booster shot for B2B? Got it.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So essentially, my customers are at a point in the inflection point. I'll tell you about my customers, then you'll get some more context around this. So my customers are in, you know, my cut, my best customers are ones that have just achieved a certain level of success, a couple of million dollars worth of revenue, they've sold to friends and family in referrals, and they they recognize it's now time to put the foot down on their sales and marketing activity. They typically, if you're selling SaaS in many in any vertical, I've for the last decade I've worked across, you know, what warehouse everything.
SPEAKER_01These are SaaS folks, and you're helping SaaS companies better connect with their clients. Correct. That's right. So it's very much a B2B, yes, and it and it's a sophisticated consultative B2B because you've got these software as a service providers and you're hooking them up with the right company in the right way to plug into their model.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Often it's actually software with a service. So it's not just buy the thing, you know, so go online. That's right.
SPEAKER_01So from Matthew Wyatt.
SPEAKER_03That's right. So it's it's very none of my clients are this are the sort of client that you can just go on and buy their thing for$99 a month, uh, click a button, put your credit card details through. Bob, that's that's not the world I live in. I live in the world where you know, we're selling, like my clients are selling to governments or corporates, and they're a they're a small team, they've got a real solution that solves a genuine problem. They've typically come from industry, and they go, you know what, I'm gonna go out and try to attack and approach these types of businesses. How do I how do I look at the sky the skyscraper and go, I need the person on the 33 second floor of that building. How do I do that? And that's the bit that I come in. Okay, so I will, so I will, you know, talking super tactical, right? Let's get right down to it. You know, we'll take over there, uh, we will help them post useful thought leadership content. Doesn't sound very doesn't sound very brilliant, but we'll do that piece. We'll also generate leads. We'll we'll put the advertising in through LinkedIn or Facebook or whatever it might be. We'll sit there and make sure that there is a sales process thought all the way through because marketing occurring in a bubble does one thing, which is generate leads. But unless you actually can sell and then expand, so land and expand uh type of strategy when it comes to these types of businesses, we need to and then also breaking down the sales process. So typically I will actually tell a sale a customer so if there's any software or technology businesses out there and you sell a large thing, a large product or service, see if you can break that down into a smaller constituent pieces and sell pieces of the product, sell pieces of the consulting as a pre-consulting piece, because selling software is difficult. It requires getting it past the chain. Tip of the sphere. That's it, tip of the spirit. Exactly. So how you do that these days is by selling a piece of consulting because people will buy consulting significantly at significantly higher rates than they will buy software. Because software requires the the IT guys and girls to get involved, they need to change advisory, they've got to get all this thing, and the business changes. It's a huge pain in the ass.
SPEAKER_01Infrastructure switch it, switch a roo. And then consulting, well, you know, I need this tweaked or that, and then you know, you get in the door, you show you're smart, you show you understand their business, and then you upsell.
SPEAKER_03Correct. And you become a vendor. Uh, look, you know, we I was working with a company selling a um uh uh mining software solution, and they hadn't they they couldn't make this, they couldn't break through because there were so many people, there was 20 or 30 people in the whole process that could say no, and one or two people that could say yes. So what we did is we we just went ahead and you know, all of these people had need to believe before they all turned their keys at the same time. So we went and did a piece of consulting. Uh, we found out that a person on site could spend about$30,000 on consulting. So guess how much our consulting was?$29,500.
SPEAKER_01And an astonishing coincidence.
SPEAKER_03An astonishing coincidence, right? And so what that meant is that we could then go out on site and it wasn't necessarily you know doing the the intricate discovery of all of their systems. Of course, we knew how to do that because we the customer had been doing that for for 25 years. The real issue was the Hearts and Minds program because Barry, in distribution, the last time they tried to put something in, took it, flung the iPad to the side, and picked up his clipboard again and said, This works, this never crashes, nobody can hack this. And so that's what stopped this, stops a million-dollar sale many times. Is there's a there's Barry's and Joann's in there and Michael's over here to go, you know what? Screw you guys. I'm just gonna go ahead and keep doing my work. My job is I'm I'm hitting my KPIs, everybody else can get nicked.
SPEAKER_01So your tip of the spear sounds like uh consultancy-driven discovery kind of session. So do you do you look under the hood, you spend some time?
SPEAKER_03Yep, it's a paid, it's a paid service. Uh, it's it's it is essentially so we we name it, we brand it, we we we put a brochure around it, and we sell that. And so when a person says, hey, will it plug into my this API? Does it come in blue? Will it talk? Does it do it in Spanish? You know, uh, how many Portuguese, whatever it is. Though these questions create bot the bog you down, and technical people are masters of the universe when it comes to asking really niche technical questions.
SPEAKER_01That's how their brains are wired. They're they're they go from the bottom up. That's how that's how they that's what makes them good coders, good texts, good uh good technical people. And it's the exact opposite of strategic thinking, which is you look at the entire chessboard, you know how all the pieces move, you know the rules of the game, and then you set it loose for a while to see how it how it simmers. But technical folks don't operate that way. It's like line 36 has a recursion. What are we gonna do about it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's why we that's why it's dangerous to wade into those waters because there'll always be a smarter person on the other side of the table who's got more industry experience, more knowledge of their own business than you will ever will until you're a vendor. So you don't you say you you don't sell them the the you sell them the outcome? And then the technical cancer is, well, that's a great question, Joanne. We'll discover that and we'll make a decision together during our scoping discovery process.
SPEAKER_01And you're hunting for pain points. So what a lot of clients don't realize is really the mess that they're actually in. And then once you look under the hood, it exposes challenges that they themselves didn't even think about. And the art of consultative selling is to have that conversation, listen, extract the pain points, and then craft a solution of which what you're proposing isn't a sell. You're not convincing them to buy something they don't want, but you're building a sense of urgency and inevitability. So they're like, Yes, I have to have that because now I know what a mess we're in.
SPEAKER_03Very rarely do people realize that they're victims of Stockholm syndrome when it comes to their own systems and procedures and processes inside their business. They go, Well, that's how we've always done it. And it must be the right way because that's how we've always done it. Well, somebody made that up years ago using an Excel spreadsheet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, another guest described it as there's there's been there's every company has this. There's the employee who's been there 10, 15 years, and they've been jerry-rigging with masking tape and and and nylon the the integration. And there's APIs flapping in the wind, and they have a big gargantuan spaghetti bowl mess, and this person knows everything, and they're fixing it.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_01And that's the exact opposite of what you want in terms of integration, scalability, interoperability fixes, and just redesigning things from the ground up to make it make more sense.
SPEAKER_03Those people have typically got two or three assistants now because and what happens is they, you know, often they get paid. More because they're now managing people. They're desperately needed.
SPEAKER_01Peter principal to do even more damage than they've been doing in their in their prior role.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. And you know what, you've just got to find those people and help them understand that they'll actually be better off and they'll look better at the end of the day if they're able to implement your solution.
SPEAKER_01The big offering that you're doing is a consultative discovery session to look under the hood and create a relationship with the client. So one of the central themes of this podcast is consultative selling. And that's the essence of what you're doing. To the point you made earlier, it's the opposite of a commodity. Commodity is transactionable, disposable, led by features, maybe a few advantages, and you don't really care about the client much. And it's usually driven based on price. That's right. I want it cheaper, faster, better. Let's go. And consulting is the exact opposite. It's time consuming. You go in deep, it's expensive, but it's proportionally much more valuable, which is you're extracting real insights about the business. And most importantly, to your point, once you build trust, create the relationship, see what's under the hood, then you have a unique perspective in terms of providing a custom solution that could bring about the most benefit and that you're ideally suited for. So just like you had the miracle happen where you have a budget of 30k for the for the session, you hit it at 29.5, all of a sudden you expose issues that your tech torque solution is ideally suited to fix. Perfect. Exactly. Would you like a job? Sounds like you nailed it. Can you describe to me this in operation? And now that we've set it up, downstream, can you share maybe a case study or an example of how you've delivered and then the benefits that have come to the lucky, the lucky customer of Tech Torque?
SPEAKER_03Obviously, every customer and every client have their own um uh needs and wants and desires. Uh so I'll I'll stay with that customer I was speaking about earlier in the mining sector. So uh we were selling uh it was a million dollar a year product selling to the largest companies in the world, uh the largest mining company in the world and the largest uh uh uh what do you call it? Um, distribution company, uh sorry, trading company in the world. So giant organizations with massive multiple layers and multiple billions of dollars. And so what we did is we recognized that client wasn't really selling uh many and they weren't selling any in the last couple of years before I got there. Uh, I was brought in to have a look at their sales and marketing process and realized that they needed to um stop being the smartest guys in the room. The problem is that the the greatest challenge that a lot of technical people have is they are the smartest guys in the room by by by a long mile by a long way, and which is intimidating for clients, and and also the smartest guys in the room rarely have the ability the time or the crayons to explain it to them, uh to their customers. And so they needed somebody with you know what isn't as smart as them, that's me, uh, to be able to take theirs in take their brilliance and distill it through their messaging and their marketing and their communication and then present it back to the clients in the format in which they did. So uh to just to wrap that little case study up, they hadn't made a sale in about three years before I got there. Uh that's they were living very, very well on the on the recurring revenue from their existing businesses. Absolutely, that they were crushing it. Uh just being really clear about that. And then by the time I'd left, after a couple of years, they'd sold six new pro uh uh six new mine sites, which are all you know hundreds of millions, you know, tens of millions of dollars each in recurring revenue over time, and you know, all the all the contracts renegotiated. So, really, it's about stepping into the client's shoes, understanding exactly what they need, and then delivering that back into the market. Uh, so it often my clients very rarely have the they have incredible technical capabilities so they can manage other technical people. I've seen some of my clients stand in rooms with a whiteboard and explain to their technical team, and I'm sitting there just half understanding it, not even half, maybe a quarter understanding it, but I'm there for the I'm there for the knowledge transfer, watching these guys map stuff out, incredibly complex things on a whiteboard, and go, this person is absolutely in their flow. They're perfectly designed to teach this technical stuff to this technically people, these technically brilliant people.
SPEAKER_01But you put them in front of a client, and that communication doesn't work. It it often backfires horribly. What's interesting about your approach is it's meta. So you're you're a sales expert from a consultative vantage point. We just talked about that, and you use your sales expertise to get your clients. Once you get your clients, in a sense, you're teaching that same mojo to them so they can get their clients. 100% like I like that trajectory. So, what what people often mix up is is again features first, and technical people are feature driven, they're all in the code swimming around. And what's obvious to them is a complete chaotic disaster to a decision maker ultimately on the executive team because they don't know how that stuff works and they don't care. What they want is when you plug in whatever it is, I look at it as a black box. Here comes my tech stuff, plug in that IT, and all of a sudden the lights are on, and it's a Christmas tree, and I'm getting getting the business that I want. They do not care, and I think that's very hard for a lot of technical people to understand. They need to sell in their benefit, but at the end of the day, most executive decision makers, even chief technical officers, the CTOs, maybe, maybe, maybe they'll get it. But their concern is to your point earlier, the corner office. They need to keep their boss happy who's the CEO. And if it's lost, and if it's lost in translation, the deal's not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_03I was speaking to a client today and they said, What would you do? I said, Well, first of all, I've known your business now for 45 minutes. It's ridiculous for me to make any type of recommendation that you couldn't find on Chat GPT.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03First of all, let's start with that. So, but really, what we have to recognize is that it the way you enter a business is rarely how you're going to exit the business. When I say exit, you're going to win the sale. Because you might get in through procurement, or you're sorry, you might get in through warehousing because they've got a warehousing issue. But how does warehousing issue that your solution can solve, how where does that warehousing issue show up for the next layer up at maybe at the technical level or at the logistics level or at the financial level or at the CEO level? Because every one of those experience that same problem differently. So the CEO is interested in market share and reputation. The CFO is being told to do more with less. And CFO's really got his eyes on the prize being CEO. And then the CTO is being told to make sure I don't hear about any problems because and I'm not that interested anymore. And so every type of communication, you can't hand the same document to the warehouse guy or girl and expect that document to survive the relay race of being handed one person to the next all the way up to the decision maker or procurement or the CEO, it depends on the business and how it's structured to buy things, for them to go, oh, I get it, I'm excited.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. So you need a different pitch for different targets. And one of the biggest mistakes made in tech is they're giving specification documents to decision makers who have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03Yep. Last time they wrote a line of code might have been 10 years ago if they're a CTO. And so they're gonna they're gonna pick out the bit that they think they know of. And remember, you know, I've spoken to clients as well who they go, so how do you identify? How do you see yourself in the marketplace? How do you how do you represent yourself? And and they sort of looked at each other in a bit of chat chat and went, Oh, we're problem solvers. And so, cool. What does a problem solver need to need to survive? And they just looked at each other and said, Well, if you're a problem solver, what do you need? What do you desperately need? Problems. Right. So so then everything you everything I hear back from you, everything that you're saying, you're gonna you're gonna hear what I say, you're gonna intelligently break it down and find the problem. And so this is why selling is difficult when in a technical situation, but you can certainly get through that if you have a a a same side of the desk sort of positioning. Well, let's approach this problem together rather than let's problem, let's approach this problem adversarially. But then, of course, you need to also then point your energies, both you and your champion, towards the next layer up in management and then and the purse strings.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you bring up a terrific point that if you're selling based on features, the old example is if your face is facing one way, then your ass is facing the other. Then you're naturally gonna raise a tsunami of objections that you otherwise never would if you turn around. Stop showing your ass to the decision maker, turn around, look at it through the lens of what they expect, how they interpret the situation, and you're gonna avoid the roadblocks and the landmines that usually come up when you're selling, not understanding what the decision maker or even the influencer even wants from you.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Well, there's you know, there's there's there's stages in which people buy things even today, and that they translate to every stage. So, step one, light of the salesperson. What does that sound like in a lot of situations? No thanks, we've already got one. Or thank no thanks, just looking. You know, go to the shops with your with your wife, or with my I go to my shops with my wife, no thanks, just looking. You know, how can I help you today? No thanks, just looking. That's crap. I hate that. We're looking for this, we want this in this size and colour. And that, of course, the experience of shopping and is different for for me and my wife. I go to buy something, she goes to shop. Um, so uh, that's pretty archetypal there, Matthew. That's right, yeah. So step one light of the salesperson. The second step is to get as much information as possible about every part, point, speed, feed, every, and that's called get free consulting. Tell me everything. So I don't need to buy anything from you. Right. Tell me so much that I can find one hole in your story, which means I don't have to think too hard and buy your product. Because nobody's sitting around going, gee we'll really hope I get to spend the next six months implementing a new product. Nobody wants that. And so the third step is lie to the salesperson again. What does that sound like? Send me a proposal. You know, I just, yeah, I'll I'll I'll send me a proposal, I'll put it to management, all that sort of stuff. And I was speaking with a client just the other day who was saying, you know, why are we selling what we're sending out proposals but we're not closing deals. And there's only two reasons you send out proposals and not closing deals. First, you're selling the proposal. So you you know, you've done your pitch, you've not really got much feedback. You go, can I send you a proposal? The person says yes. And really the yes is thank goodness I can get off the phone now. Or um they're not feeling the pain. It's it's low pain, or you're selling the proposal. It's the only two reasons, you don't make a sell. So we need to change those, how we how those operate. Too much detail in the proposal, too much, too much, too many areas in which a um an area could be, you know, I don't like that, I don't want that, I don't I've already got some of these. Because if you get into tactics, that's why in my advisory, I don't talk about sales, I don't sorry, I don't talk about Facebook leads or I don't talk about doing content because oh well with Facebook I can get an agency with with um uh content I can get uh ChatGPT to write me some crappy articles, which we're all enjoying on LinkedIn at the moment, I'm sure. Uh you know, and everywhere else. And everywhere else. So it's all of that. And then and then of course to finish that off is the fourth part is to hide from the salesperson. So the four stages of a sale, how people buy. And once you understand how people buy, then you can then you can short circuit that by with with scripting, with practice, with structure, with process.
SPEAKER_01Let's talk about scripting in terms of content strategy. Now, the old school method is big sale, 20% off today, make your move. The consultative approach is based on on listening, building up pain points, and and creating the relationship that way. So when you're advising your clients about anything from, let's say, a LinkedIn or Facebook ad or content, or you're even scripting salespeople in terms of their engagement, how do you look at that trajectory that you just outlined through content? Do you have opportunities at that tip of the spear to not just highlight end game? Like, you know, here's the typical thing is that you roll into a used car lot and you're fresh meat, and then the salesman comes out old school and says, Hey buddy, check this out. It's an AMFM radio, leather bucket seats, and a 325 Hemi. Come on, test drive. And what you're doing and what you're espousing is, how are ya? Is it for you? Are you married? Are you a single guy? Do you want a roadster to you know get feisty? Or do you want to go to the corner and pick up a gallon of milk for your wife? I mean, you're creating a relationship. So when you're advocating what you're advocating, how does it layer out? Or what's that continuity of content strategy that ties into the phased approach that you just described?
SPEAKER_03Not a single one of my clients has been worse off because of them going more and more narrow into a niche or a niche, as you say over here.
SPEAKER_01Niche is so American, isn't it? Nietzsche, it's French, right? I mean, I'm a dumb American. And there's no T in there.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's not like it's not like glitch or bitch, it's niche. It's gonna E, which which accentuates the vowel in the middle. But anyway, let's like an inter thing. Yeah, it's so uh Welcome, welcome to America.
SPEAKER_01I'd love it. You know what? Uh people make fun of the Aussies for you know for your action and for crocodile, Dundee, and all that stuff. And as Americans, we lose sight of that the whole world makes fun of us.
SPEAKER_03Look, you know, it's uh it's a great place as long as you don't watch the news. Uh and I've been here now for nine months, and I think I'm more positive about America than a lot of Americans are. I have uh I'm a member of some clubs here in town, and you know, I live in Princeton, New Jersey now, uh, and I'm a member of some clubs here. And yeah, people ask me, and I said, Well, how what's been your experience? And I said, Look, it's been fantastic from day one. Everybody's been so nice, so easy to get along with. I ask a question, they answer it. It's almost uh in the first couple of months being here, people would go out of their way to help. They were just so open and friendly, and and uh I think Americans as a whole are are fantastic people, certainly very, very friendly. And the you know, of course, dealing with any large, you know, trying to get a social security number is hilarious. Uh, you know, as a as a 50-year-old man walking into social security for the first time, that's um that's an amazing experience of people who are you know you are male and caucasian, so you you have you have an advantage, at least currently, I think. That that's right. You know, I I have joked to a friend of mine that said, uh, you know, when will it be my time? When will it be a uh white male born in Australia, privately school educated? When will it be my time? You know?
SPEAKER_01Terrific Louis C.K. skit where he goes, look at me, I'm a fat, balding white guy. It's been great, it's been great, it's been great forever, and you know, sooner or later, we're gonna get our ass kicked, and we deserve it. But until then, woohoo!
SPEAKER_03It's gonna be great. That's it. Well, um, yeah, my boys are uh are playing sport at a very reasonably high level now here in the States, and uh, you know, they get to meet everybody, you know, uh in elite sport, it's a uh it's it's fascinating. And uh and you know, I I just think that America is such an incredible meritocracy. There's so much opportunity here. Uh doesn't matter. You could work it, okay. The whole machine, and this is the whole machine is set up like a lot of countries, but the whole machine really is angled towards the top 10%. Everybody else is getting screwed. But if you're if you but the good thing is there's no barriers. Okay, once again, this is my uh as as the young people might say, my privilege might be showing. Yeah, but I don't believe there are really any barriers. If you're willing to put the work in, work your ass off with a with a with and add value and exchange value for money, then there's no barriers to getting to that 10%. Like I've got clients in from other countries who have a um you know a class system so baked deep that it doesn't matter how hard you work. Whereas the whereas here, as far as I can see, uh, and and I of course I'm always uh open to being uh having a conversation about that, it just seems to be there's so much opportunity here to um to to to do whatever you want to do and and make it.
SPEAKER_01Love, love your perspective. As Americans due to the headlines, we're getting we're getting all negative and defeatist and this country sucks. And yet the the lifeblood of this country, even in terms of our polarized politics, we're like we're we're we're we're bold, we fight it out, we're a little bit irrational in ways, but to your exact point, the meritocracy still shines, and it's really our differentiator. Just just go for it, try it. Wake up in the morning and go for it. And you have the perspective of of being from another country, literally the Antipodes. Your your sky is the opposite of ours, and your seasons are the opposite of ours.
SPEAKER_03That's it. Your moon is upside down when I look at it.
SPEAKER_01You're from an alien place, but uh that perspective is very important, and Americans lose sight of our distinct ability and willingness and enthusiasm to just go out there, kick ass, take names, and there's no guarantee of success, but you got a shot. You got a shot, you got a shot, and that's that's great to me. That's America. I'm the first generation American. My parents are Hungarian. Okay, and they fled the cauldron of World War II by way of Venezuela. I was conceived in Venezuela, so I'm technically an anchor baby. I was born just barely in Chicago, and I grew up not speaking English, so this is kind of I'm a stranger in a strange land here, at least instinctively. And uh I have that feeling too that anything's possible here, just go for it. It really is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, go for it. And I was actually speaking of American and American sport and the opportunities here. I was saying to a friend uh today, I'm absolutely blown away that because Australia has a reputation for being very good at sport, you know. When in at the Olympics, you know, we we're up there, rugby, of course. Rugby Mofos. Yeah, that's it. So we're we're we're pretty good at sport. You know, we we've had a number of world titles across a lot of sports. And the what I'm blown away is that if Australia put the amount of money, time, energy, and effort and focus into sport that America does. Oh, let me put it flip it the over. I'm blown away Australia has any chance at sport because of the amount of support, money, focus, and energy that goes into sport in America. My son Rose uh and is uh was in a pretty good team in Australia uh for the school, and he uh rode twice a week and then on the weekend had a regatta and the season went for seven weeks, and so they really rode for about maybe 12, maybe 12 weeks a year. And they did two practices a week. Here he rose, he rose three hours a day, six days a week, no, no, no seasons off, 12 months a year. Now, is he better? Absolutely, but there's no Australian 15-year-old rowing at that level, at that level of dedication. So I'm so an Australian woman winning a gold medal in rowing is bizarre to me now that I've seen what how how America does it versus how the rest of the world does it. You know, there's there's an there's a mechanical industrial complex there, of course, you know, also that goes, well, there is a there's a financial benefit there, the coaches have got to get paid, the sheds have got to get paid. So there's it's like it it's a it's a machine that needs to feed itself, so therefore it needs to continue to be fed.
SPEAKER_01Detractors will say we're pouring hundreds of millions of dollars just into sports because it's got ticket sales and media. But let's say you're into chess. Americans love their chess too. Is it broadcast nationally and is it a ticket five grand, you know, for the box seats? No. But we have the critical mass and enthusiasm and this competitive streak that pick almost anything that you're into. America is the land of opportunity. Become a chess grandmaster, go on OnlyFans and make a few bucks. It's what whatever suits your fancy. I have that literal. Libertarian streak in me too, which is just just go for it. The only person stopping you is you. And unlike frankly, a lot of Europe, which is still recovering from World War II, frankly, the mentality of self-victimization, mentality that capitalism is evil, and and uh and and it's self-destructive and self-defeating.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's that baked, it's that baked-in class system that is is is deeply ingrained, right? So, oh well, I'm a you know, I'm I'm I'm a tradesperson, so I'll always be a tradesperson, and so my kids can grow up to be tradespeople, and hopefully they'll their kids will be tradespeople. And that and funnily enough, although into the age of AI, uh tradespeople will be the well, tradespeople in Australia have been rich for for a long time anyway. Uh so tradespeople in Australia have been, you know, they're the ones with a yacht. Uh and uh and and it's because we don't really because Australia is mainly uh resources, right? So Australia builds on uh real estate, and and those friends of mine who are tradies or tradespeople, uh tradey, there you go, that's an Australianism. Uh they're doing real well. They're doing really well. So it's it's that's not gonna ever take well not it's gonna be a long time before that's taken by AI.
SPEAKER_01And that's that's the irony. The original conception of robotics, the Andrew Yang crowd felt that the the the lower echelon worker would be hit first, and they were they didn't anticipate the agentic technology, and it looks like the the white-collar coders are the first to bite it. And it's it's paradoxical, but very, very interesting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, if you move, if you as Elon said, if you move atoms around, you've got a better chance. A very tweetable line.
SPEAKER_01Now we're on AI, and I want to I want to get your thoughts on that. We're all blinded by the bullshit right now, almost everyone. And it oscillates from if someone builds it, then everyone dies, one extreme, to AI is a fad and it's meaningless, and it's hyped by all the companies just to get a trillion dollars in data centers. Now, the truth, as usual, is in between and oscillating. Two things can be correct at the same time, exactly. Sometimes three or four, actually. So I ask you this just because you're working in a market, especially with SaaS, where there's so much uncertainty and no one is really feels like they're standing on firm ground like they used to. So, how do you negotiate with or how do you handle a potential customer where they're they themselves are utterly confused by all this and asphyxiated to the point where they're paralyzed? It's like I can't make a decision because everything's in flux. I don't know whether I need to, to your earlier point, vibe code my Slack channel, or or just uh double down on my Salesforce commitment because they're the only people I can trust. How how do you negotiate this world of such swirl, disruption, chaos, and uncertainty?
SPEAKER_03Uh the same way that my I coach would uh coach my son's basketball team is if it's all falling to bits, go back to basics. Get your fitness up, pass the ball, run a play. So, how what does that look like in business terms? What is true? What is true, not what we think is going to be what is true? What is true is you have clients who are getting value. And uh funnily enough, in in the times in which I've had tough times in business, and and anybody says they don't are you know an anomaly or lying.
SPEAKER_01Everyone thinks the career is this meteoric rise, it's that old chart, and when when it's really like that's right, even the richest man in the world.
SPEAKER_03I've quoted it twice now. Even the richest man in the world says having a business is like uh you know, chewing glass and staring into the abyss.
SPEAKER_01Some of us last night.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So that what is true? So we're looking for what is true, and if you're adding value, so how I used to get out of those funks is I would actually call my best clients and say, How are you going? And typically they're it's how are you enjoying the product? And they would tell you. And you go, Oh, so this, so and so just so I can understand, what were the two or three things going on in your business that you that was happening before we engaged? And how has it changed now? And how would you like it to continue to look like in the future? Well, if you do that, there's your new marketing campaign right there. That's your conversation you're gonna have with your next client. So, oh, you're in logistics and you do refrigerator transport in the Midwest. Cool, I'm just gonna call all the refrigerated logistics companies in the Midwest and say, hey, I know that you're dealing with this. So, how do you deal with it? Look, I'm I'm not a psychologist uh by any stretch of the imagination. I have um, you know, I'll I sort of you know grit my teeth and push through because it really uh I think Tom Brady said it. Um actually I won't say I won't swear, but he said, F your feelings. Um, get on with it.
SPEAKER_01Mira guess f-bombed on one of my podcasts, and then I noticed Apple podcast of all of them. I'm I got this explicit rating on bald ambition. I was like, what the fuck? And then I I actually contacted customer service. It's like we don't talk sexuality, there's nothing. I was like, oh, we we looked at this transcript, there's f-bombs in there. I go, you gotta be kidding me. I'm explicit because someone said fuck, and they're like, Yeah, and then I say, Well, what if you know I I stopped saying fuck on my podcast? And they're like, that's too late, buddy. You're already explicit. So so go ahead, fuck fuck your feelings from time.
SPEAKER_03So remember, uh, remember uh back in the 90s that they had the uh the explicit the warning, the parental warning on CDs. So then so then uh albums used to come out with that printed on it because that became a badge of honor because that's what people wanted. So now you're cool, now you're part of the cool kids, like all the cool kids are swearing.
SPEAKER_01I'm the explicit podcast that you're right. Maybe I'm getting listeners too, and they have like a bald fetish or something, and they see it.
SPEAKER_03That's funny. Yeah, very good. So go back to what's true, have a conversation with your best clients, and then um then really it's it's try not to look too far into the future. Do too, don't too much do too much sort of crystal ball gazing. What's the next thing that can be done? What's the correct next move? And it might be a small next move, but that's those little next. So I've got this green highlighter in my hand, right? This is gonna sound like this is gonna sound like a really non-technical way of approaching um task management. Uh, but I have a list of things to do every day, and then I get and I highlight them off my list, and I go, and and every time I highlight them, I get up and do a little dance, which is ridiculous, which is a dumb thing to do. But you move, I move my body and they go, I have just rewarded myself for choosing a webinar title for next month. You know, and so I do the small things because you continually execute on the small things, and the big things will look after themselves.
SPEAKER_01I think that's terrific, especially these days, where there's a natural human tendency to freak out and go to extremes. Like something is just mildly broken or inconvenient. I have a 19-year-old, my son, and he's my roommate as I help him get through flight school. He's learning how to be a pilot. I'm so proud. He's doing great. But but I see him, I see him like this, like every five minutes, every 10 minutes. He makes these earth-shattering existential decisions, and then he comes in and he makes an announcement. I'm gonna quit my job, I'm gonna get a new job, I'm gonna change flight schools. I don't know about this flying thing, I'm gonna die, I'm gonna commit 120% and I want to be a pilot in two weeks. And and it sometimes, minute to minute, he's he's flaring. And and there's a tendency to the point we're making right now that when you have a lot of disruption in business, there are knee-jerk reactions to the latest headline, the latest news. And you feel that if you don't make radical change or if you don't do something crazy, then you're gonna be left behind. And then there's another whiplash to that, which is I'm paralyzed and I can't do anything because this is all overwhelming. To your great point, what's your to-do list for today? And and the issues that you have, which have been probably endemic to your organization for a decade, are dying to be solved. And explore the lowest of low-hanging fruit that that that do not demand a complete infrastructure overhaul and start fixing things and call, walk, run. And this is about Stephen Covey business advice 101, but it's true, it's it's a cliche, but it's true, and it's a cliche because it's true, and it's true, so just do it, which is don't freak out and figure it out.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. So it is it is so it's it's easy to to be to feel uh uh overwhelmed by the options, and then if you just if you did, you just go, you know what? Let's go talk to my team, go to have a conversation with a real human. Don't don't look at your phone, certainly don't check your email, or just slack.
SPEAKER_01Don't ask Claude or ask Claude after you talk to your own people.
SPEAKER_03That's it. Yeah, have a conversation because I because the the answers are in inside the brains of the people that you already work with. Uh I found that you know when I've had my uh businesses, you know, we had 70 staff at one stage. That's a lot of people that could that are all thinking about the same problems and and trying to move the business forward. And when I realized that in my mid-20s, that actually I can I can engage. I read the Jack Welsh book. Uh there's a story of Jack Welsh.
SPEAKER_01The legendary C O. He was the Satya Nadala of the prior generation. I think that's the best way to characterize Jack Jack Welsh.
SPEAKER_03That's right. So he he was the he was the captain of the ship when it was the largest company in the world.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Old old school. That's when an energy company and energy manufacturing. I uh literally to your point, atoms moving, electrons moving. This is pre-digital, right? Isn't it astonishing to think?
SPEAKER_03And I'm I'm very old and I've read a lot of books, so uh no, I love it. I'm I I'm I'm old as hell too. So yeah, so what he was saying is you know, he had a rising rising speech, and and it really you know got everybody's attention, and the foreman came up and said, Look, um Mr. Welsh, you've had my hands for 20 years, and today you've got my brain. And the and the factory turned and the factory completely changed how it was operating simply because the people were cared about and the people in the individuals inside the organization. There's a lot of smart people inside every organization. If they just spend a little bit of time talking with their own people and going, what can we, you know, what do you think? Not not the directive of we're doing this, it's always good to have this, but within the framework of our values and mission, vision, and values, what do you think and how would you like to contribute? That's a powerful conversation to have with people.
SPEAKER_01It goes, I guess, full circle with our conversation. It goes beyond and within and without the specifications documentation. So, in order for software to operate, you need to be buttoned up and you need to be very detailed conscious. And AI, machine learning, deep learning intelligence in nanoseconds can do what an army of engineers used to be able to do. Yay, but that's not gonna save you. That's like having a silver cross and a clove of garlic in a desk drawer in Transylvania. The vampires are still gonna get you. And those vampires are your own broken business processes and one's own unwillingness or incapacity to listen to one's own people and to listen to one's own customers. AI is not a solution unless you first make that human connection and rely on your own intuition and gut to move things forward. And going back to what you were saying about what differentiates this country, it has to do with the heart and soul and the intentionality of wanting to succeed. And that's that there's that's not in any line of code, at least, not yet. AI, regardless of its sophistication, is an auto-correct feature. It ain't gonna save you. It's it'll help you, but you first have to have to get yourself short of.
SPEAKER_03That's right. And and people, yeah, the the challenge with AI is it it does help people do dumb stuff faster.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So you just gotta figure out if they're if you're doing the right stuff or you're doing dumb stuff. I yeah, there's been too many times in which people have said, Oh, we're just gonna, you know, sales is a volume game. Well, if you're doing volume, but if you're doing volume of dumb stuff, you're just gonna do a lot of dumb stuff.
SPEAKER_01So it's uh it helps you get more efficient about doing inefficient things.
SPEAKER_03That's right, very efficient, dumb stuff.
SPEAKER_01All right, Matthew. I want to sincerely thank you for making time on the Bald Ambition podcast. Like, comment, share. I will put links in the description to reach out to Matthew at Tech Torque. They give a consultative session, tip of the spear. That link to check out your own business and uh and look what what's under the hood and begin the conversation to short up and heighten your efficiencies the smart way.
SPEAKER_03Appreciate it. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01All right, thank you, thank you so much. I appreciate it, and welcome to America, sir.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate it. I feel very welcomed.
SPEAKER_01Going to Australia is on my bucket list. I've actually never been down there, I've been to Southeast Asia, so the closest I got is that, but I've always wanted to go down there and hang out. When I was traveling in Europe in my youth, I hitchhiked and I had the URL pass, and every other person was in was in Aussie.
SPEAKER_03We are everywhere. We are for for everywhere.
SPEAKER_01There they were just talking about that Joy de Viv, you know, just stopping in a city, getting a job, working, saving money, and then traveling for two, three months, and then stopping in another city, working and traveling, and they were gone for 18 months, two years, and then they would go back home, re-re- refuel, and then come back out exploring. It's really cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and then you know, I've I and the reason we're in America is no good reason. Uh we were walking around New York two years ago and went, you know what, why wouldn't why don't we live here one day? Wow, and then we said, Well, yeah, why not?
SPEAKER_01See, that is cool. That is cool. That no AI can do that, at least not yet. Not yet.
SPEAKER_03That's at least not yet. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you can start a company, AAI. Aussie AI. That's it.
SPEAKER_03Rather than says, Yeah, what do you want to do today? Yeah, gone, mate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, come on, mate. All right. Good night.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Take care. That's a pleasure. Talk to you later.
SPEAKER_03Bye for now. Yeah.
