Laurence Juber: Wings and Beyond—A Life of Mastery and Reinvention

In the 101st episode of No Hair, All Heart, Mookie is thrilled to chat with legendary guitarist and songwriter Laurence Juber—a player whose illustrious career adapts and expands at every turn. From studio sessions with George Martin to lead guitar with Paul McCartney's Wings, to becoming one of the most respected fingerstyle guitarists in the world, Laurence's career has evolved with every opportunity enthusiastically taken, every new skill masterfully learned. 

Mookie zeroes in on something rare: Juber’s ability to absorb new musical environments from rock to film scoring, jazz to classical, altered tunings to popular orchestrations, and translate them into his own distinct and thrilling aesthetic language. Central to his success has been Laurence's inspiring flexibility where patterns, theory, and instinct seamlessly blend into his distinct and masterful style. 

Going beyond “rock guitarist,” “session guy,” or “fingerstyle player," Laurence lives a life of incessant creative and technical exploration: standard tuning, DADGAD, orchestral voicings, counterpoint that sounds like multiple instruments at once.  Mookie frames it clearly: most people get overwhelmed by possibility, while Laurence embraces it and rocks it. New context? Learn it. New constraint? Conquer it. New sound? Build around it. "Cerebal plasticity" is what Mookie calls Laurence's secret sauce, and together they explore the enthralling variants. 

Along the way they get into: 

• How Laurence immediately took to reading music, and why “pattern thinking” is the perfect complement
• How alternate tunings unlock harmonic colors musicians cannot access otherwise
• The discipline and benefits of studio work fueling the freedom and exploration of solo performance
• Why counterpoint on guitar feels like bending or blocking time—second by second, and frame by frame
• And why AI, for all its usefulness, still can’t replicate the lived, physical experience of playing an instrument

Enmeshed in soulful nostalgia, with a masterclass in adaptability, Laurence reveals how an artist stays relevant and intriguing by constantly learning. And yes, Laurence picks up his guitar and plays for us, just like yesterday and everyday!

The Guest

Laurence Juber is a Grammy-winning guitarist, composer, and arranger best known for his time as lead guitarist with Paul McCartney’s Wings. A London-trained musician and former National Youth Jazz Orchestra standout, he first made his mark as a top session player in the 1970s.

Over a decades-long career, Juber has released more than two dozen solo albums and become one of the world’s leading fingerstyle guitarists, known for his orchestral approach and acclaimed Beatles arrangements. His work spans numerous film and television soundtracks, as well as compositions for video games, theme parks, and theater.

He has collaborated with artists ranging from Ringo Starr to Harry Styles, moving seamlessly across rock, jazz, classical, and acoustic traditions—building a career defined by versatility, precision, and constant reinvention.

Visit his website at: https://laurencejuber.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome to the No Hair All Heart Podcast. I'm your host, Spooky Spitz with no hair, and the one with all the heart today is Mr. Lawrence Juber. Welcome aboard.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Well, thank you very much. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

If you've been living under a rock, you might not know Lawrence, but he has been a session guy with George Martin back to the 70s. Lead guitar with Paul McCartney and Wings, playing with Ringo. You've heard him as a soundtrack for James Bond. TV shows, Gilligan's Island. You have been around the block as far as your career goes.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Yeah, a lot of a lot of stuff over the years.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

I wanted to orient folks, and it's a joy to have you on board. I had Peppino DiAgostino on the podcast a couple weeks ago, and he's a string king in his own right. And he mentioned the likes of Chet Atkins, Tommy Emmanuel, Leo Kotki, and your name came up. So you're first on the list, Lawrence. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Well, thanks. Yeah, I guess I'm one of those guitar guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I think that's probably a good description. Speaking of which, let's zoom back to December 1963 and you hear, I want to hold your hand on the radio.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

You know, it really actually goes back a few months earlier.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Because summer of now in England, you know, summer holidays from school really started at the end of July, ran for six weeks through August. And in August of 63, the Beatles released I Wanna Hold Your Hand. Shortly before that, when uh let's say the end of July, I went with my dad and my brother to see a concert with Jerry and the Pacemakers and Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas. And that was my first concert. Ironically, three years ago I produced Billy J. Kramer's most recent album. So everything goes around in circles. Um, but what happened was that I really, really wanted to play guitar. And my dad wanted me to play the saxophone. And She Loves You came out, and it was like a massive hit, and it was Beatlemania was just really starting to crest. And in early November, they did that concert for royalty where John Lennon made the crack about rattling your jewelry. And somehow the Beatles playing for royalty made the guitar less than a hue more than a huge hooligan instrument. Um, and even though my dad wanted me to play the saxophone, and I had kind of begrudgingly agreed to learn clarinet in school, even though I made sure my name was at the bottom of the list, so they ran out before they got to me. It was really the that moment in time when the guitar appeared on my 11th birthday at the foot of the bed, and I've in now 62 years plus later, I've never put it down.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

I'm assuming you have a natural affinity for the instrument.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Where do you think it's a few? I mean, I still have to work at it. I I don't know. Well, I mean, it's a little complicated. I didn't know until about a decade ago that the creative people in my family were on my dad's mother's side. And then I discovered that I had like a well-known Sax player as my third cousin, and a whole bunch of costume designers, and then my second cousin, Lindsay Posner, is the director that does all the David Mammoth plays in England. But but the the family was kind of fractured to the point where I wasn't really aware of those relationships. But that's where the creative people were. Um and I think that more than anything else, it was the time that I was growing up in, because music had become such an inherently um powerful part of the really kind of coming of age in post-war England. You know, and and there were a lot of musicians, you know, who were older than me. I mean, like Paul McCartney is 10 years older than me, so you know that the early 40s-born musicians had a slightly different path. I had the Beatles, the stones, the animals, the shadows, the all of this stuff was just really like it was so present. And I was just absorbing it all the time. And then as that went along, and I started having a few guitar lessons and really starting to realize that music was something that I could I could engage with. Um when I was 13, there was a local band leader who started taking me out, playing weddings and events like that. And I was I could read music because I'd learned in an afternoon out of a book called Play in a Day, one rainy afternoon. It's like, okay, when the saints go marching in, and that's a C, and that's there, that's the third fret of the fifth string. And it just was very logical. And I think that in the progress of it, it really had to do with recognizing patterns, whether that was physical patterns on the guitar or the visual patterns on the page, listening to the music, discovering Bach, discovering Django Reinhardt, Barney Kessel, Joe Pass. And it was just a constant adventure of musical discovery. And going starting to go out to concerts as a teenager once I could drive and you know really get around a bit. Um, I was just getting sucked more and more into it and realized that my ambition was to be a studio musician. I enjoyed playing live, but I was also a shy teenager, and just the whole idea of being able to play on records, because I was listening to stuff, especially on Radio Luxembourg, which is where you could hear Motown and American Top 40 stuff. And I'm listening to what the bass is doing and how it interacts with the kick drum and what the rhythm guitar parts were, and and just deconstructing it, which I still do. And that was really, I think, what led me into wanting to study not only music but also musicology, so that I could gain an understanding of the inner workings of style and how just how all that works. And then, you know, in the course of time, just really starting to just get so absorbed in not only the technical side of it uh from a musical point of view, but also just the expressive side of it and what one could do with the resources, whether it's a solo guitar, whether it's a band, whether it's an orchestra, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

You exhibit this very interesting and quite unique combination of skill sets. Because when you consider most musicians, especially most guitarists, especially most rock contemporary guitarists, hardly any of them read music. And you you seem to take to that instantly.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

I did. Uh I mean you do have the contingent for the for example, Steve Vai, for example. He's rare though.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Ingwe Momstein does not read music.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

But Steve Vai, I mean, he could transcribe Frank Zappa's solos in real time. I mean, you know, I'm not my my I had a my ears, my ear training was bandstand ears. I mean, I scraped by with my music degree. You know, when when you're trying to transcribe like a Schoenberg, some kind of Schoenberg atonal thing, and it it's like the notes are all over the place. No. But I remember one of the very first gigs I did, um, the bass player, and I was always playing with older musicians because I was 13, 14 years old, bass player leaned over and he said, if you don't know the chords, lad, just play the bridge of I Got Rhythm. And it was like, oh, cycle of fifths. Listening for listen for 5-1, listen for 2-5-1, listen for those relationships. And then, you know, and I've always been intrigued by composers, for example, um Harold Arlin with um, let's see, um uh Come Rain or Come Shine, where he takes the cycle of fifths and he twists it in in interesting ways, or Jerome Kern using interlocking cycle of fists progressions in all the things you are. Um or those composers that that steer away from the cycle of fists. I've just been doing some Richard Rogers arrangements, and you know, the hills are alive with the sound of music. You're going from an F to an E. Now, what's how do you how do you analyze that? You know, what Schenkarian analysis would you apply to a move like that, which is not a one-to-five or a five to one. It's just putting the emotional uh space into a slightly different perspective. And stuff and and Beatles, I mean, one of the things I love about doing arrangements of Beatles songs is they never do what you really expect them to do. There's always some kind of twist to it.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

The eastern scale, the chromatic scale. There's so much emotional dimensionality that you can add to it. And not to get too much ahead of ourselves, but your fascination and indulgence with alternate tunings, your dad gad, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah, mostly dad gad, some C G D G A D.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

That's similar in the sense where you're out of the usual box of playing.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah. Um, you know, the I I think that that was kind of a revelation to me. I had done two albums that were functionally all standard tuning. I mean, there were a couple of little tweaks to that, but but there were a number of people that were suggesting to me that I should try some alter-tunings. And I remember that I was sitting in a hotel room in Portland, Oregon, and I picked up my guitar and I thought, okay, Dagad. What can I do with Dagad? And then I thought, well, wait a minute. I mean, it's all the same notes. They just sit in a different place on the guitar. The top two strings, bottom string, everything is like two frets higher than it would otherwise be. And I wrote a piece, a tune called Bob's Your Uncle, which is, you know, it's an English expression. And it was like kind of, I it was one of those epiphanies where it was like, oh, I I get it. I understand what I could do with this because it lets me do things that you can't do in standard tuning. And that's really my my kind of motto when it comes to that is you can't do that in standard tuning.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Especially if you're a pattern-focused player, all of a sudden the patterns are transformed. They might be transposed in ways, but the fret the fretboard has changed out from under you.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

It has. It does, but but the fact is that I think that for me it's an awareness of where the notes are. Whether I'm in standard tuning or in an auto-tuning, um, it's that sensibility, it's not a question of just playing shapes. Now, I mean, I understand the I mean, going back to my dad, when I was just getting started, my dad took me over to a friend of his who was a kind of a semi-professional guitar player, and he showed me like a C9 chord, which I and then that was like, oh, cool. And then he showed me an F major. Then he showed me an F major 7, which was like the heavens opened up and angels started singing. And I think that throughout my career, that especially when I've been dealing with it as a solo, soloistic player, that the pursuit of that sensibility of being able to find something that is is kind of an orchestral thing on the guitar that it does something more than you're used to doing. And it could be just a different voicing of a major chord. You know, it just I mean hang on a sec. Let me pull up my uh pull up my guitar mic too here. Here we go. Unmute, and we don't need any reverb, so let me mute that. Okay, so I mean, for example, you know, you have can you hear? Can you hear the guitar? Yes, yeah, coming in well. Okay, so you have like an F chord. Hang on.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

What kind of guitar are you playing?

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Uh this is a a custom shop Martin.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

It's the uh like the Martins.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Well, it just it's a very traditional kind of guitar, yeah uh guitar tone. Um but you have an F chord in in Dagat. Come back. I thought this was in Dagat, I realized it was in C G D G.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

So you here's an F. So really, I mean, it's like this in standard tuning, but but now, and also, you know, I don't always play six-note chords. I mean, it's you know, the less is more with this, but but here's an F and then the same notes, but voiced so that the the third of the chord is an open string. It's a different sonority. Yeah, yeah, different sonority, and and just the fact that with Dagad, um you know, I mean there you've got an F, a G, an A, and an E. So you've got an F major nine, but not in a way that would normally correspond to the way that one would do it uh in standard tuning, because in Dagad you have two adjacent scale tones. You have an A and you have a G. So things like you know, minor sevenths with sus fours, but still keep it, it's not just a sus, it's really uh almost like an eleventh. That you've got the third and the fourth next to each other, right? Which is you know really kind of the way that one would voice, you know, let's say alto flutes and French horns or something that you get the colour of of that kind of stuff. So um, and and it really I think that opened a lot of uh a lot of possibilities for me to find interesting ways of approaching arranging.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Absolutely. And and you're not like the rock and blues guys with the one-finger approach to the alternate tunings, which is just a lazy major chord. You're you're indulging the fretboard completely with DadGad.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah, I I mean, but even like the full open tuning, as opposed to uh, you know, a kind of a modal tuning like DadGad. Um there's still, I mean, there's a lot you can do with OpenG or OpenG minor. And the one finger thing is is handy from a textural point of view, because it gives you just a certain thing. I mean, Keith Richards has done very much.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah, he's the maestro.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

But there there are, you know, and open G tuning is not like a recent phenomenon. I mean, that this goes back to um the 19th century. There was uh there was a very famous piece called Spanish Fandango in Open G Tuning, uh, which was a concert piece. I mean, it was uh uh very much, and this was an era where there was no tablature. You know, it's funny that as soon as uh the guitar became kind of like a menstrual notation, you know, only instrument, people started writing in altered tunings.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Take advantage. Uh another characteristic that is uh special for you is your contrapunnal approach. Even when you when you orchestrate, let's say, a Beatles cover, and when you do more sophisticated pieces, especially later in your career where you're doing a lot of the finger picking that you've become known for, uh it's almost like a Bach few. People get the feeling that there's two or three guitars going at one time. How did you settle into that? And what kind of technical chops did you have to pick up to rewire your brain to think that way?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Um I think that you could probably attribute, I can probably attribute that awareness of how the bass line works. I mean, basically Carol Kay, James Jameson, and Paul McCartney in terms of the records that I was listening to and how the bass interacted with the melody. Um everything else really is just understanding that you're not trying to maintain awareness of two or three different lines individually, but you're it's it's all vertical slices. It's what's happening from one beat to the next. And then in performance, those things all connect. So uh, I mean, you know. You know, but it's just you're just really working it out from one beat to the next. You know, it's I I can't even slow it down now after I've been playing it for so long. But but that's how I work it out. It's really just is it's just from beat to beat.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Almost like a film, scene to scene, you know, it goes from one to the next, and and you do those slices in time rather than worrying about it.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

It's it's fray, it's actually frame to frame, is what it really is. Right. Yeah. And then then as it becomes more natural physically, and you start to hear the um hear the relationship between things like that. And some of that for me came from from playing ragtime. You know, I when I first started getting into finger style, that was actually Angie. It was it was um David Graham's Angie, which let me grab my standard tuning guitar. See, there you've got you've got kind of the hit the road jack, you know, walking bass line, and then etc. I mean, that was kind of a rite of passage, you know, and and everybody in in high school was trying to figure out how to do that. Um and then Bert Yance, John Remborn, and that was John Remborn really got me excited about early music too, about Elizabethan lute music. Um, and by the time I got to college, I actually had a lute and would do the occasional lunchtime concert and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

How did you feel about the scallops on the on the loot?

SPEAKER_00 21:17

No, the uh it's not my my loot have never had scalloped fingerboards. No. But you do have tied-on frets. But no, I mean some of the I've seen Baroque guitars with scallop fingerboards, but but lootes typically don't. I mean, it's really and and a loot is very similar in many ways to a guitar, but you have an extra string on top. So all the shapes, and of course it would be like capoing at the third fret. Um if you want to like read loot tablature, all you really have to do is tune the G string down to an F sharp, put it put a capo at the third fret. But then all your chord shapes, instead of like in on a loot, this Would be um this would be an F.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

But it doesn't work that way on guitar. But it's but they the tunings relate because they're all they're all basically triadic. I mean D, G, and B on a guitar, you know, and and on the uh Renaissance guitar, it was it was tuned like a ukulele, it was tuned to the to a to a C. So and then you know if you had if you imagine uh that's the nut, then you only have one finger and you're making a C chord. But when they but as the guitar got bigger More convenient. Well, and as the guitar got bigger, it all it just moved down. So the first chord you would learn would actually be a G. You know, if you I mean the there are um there was something in Italy in the 17th century, it was a system called Alphabetto, which basically was a page full of of diagrams of what your fingers would be doing on the strings. And and uh entirely counterintuitively, the um the first chord you would learn, which was the letter A, was a G chord. The second chord was which was a letter B was a C chord, and the third chord was a D chord, which was a letter C. So A, B, C, because it's just going up the alphabet. But significant that you didn't have to learn an F shape. And of course they didn't have, you know, they were five five courses, so so you didn't have quite, you didn't really deal with having to bar the the boxes.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

That's an obscene chord for a medieval loot player.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Well, not but well, you'd be surprised, actually. I mean, the Renaissance loot players had some you know serious stretches on that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

The active.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah, my my the biggest stretch I've done, I think, is that one. But you're like a G sharp to a D. Um But uh but the trick with those, with a you know, with a stretch like that, is you don't stretch up, you stretch back. I can't do this, I can do this, but I can't start here and then get to the B flat. The muscles don't work that way. So you always want to stretch back to a long stretch, not try and do it the other way around. Um but it I mean the the the history of guitar is full of great virtuoso players. You know, I mean there were early 19th century, there was guitar mania in Europe when the guitar finally became a six-string instrument. And the company that made that happen was Savarez, who still exists because you know they'd figured out how to how to overwind metal on a on a gut uh core to make a bottom E. Before that, you know, the lowest string was an A, and often that was just an octave higher anyway.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Can I ask you a violin player question? Uh you can try. B string. What's up with the B string?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

The B string. Well, but you remember that you know violin is tuned in fifths.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Well, that's what I'm saying. It's symmetrical. Violinists are symmetric.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

But but if you go back to this notion that the core of a guitar tuning is a triad. And because the guitar is a harmonic instrument, the violin is not. It's a monophonic, essentially monophonic. I mean, yes, you can play. No chords, not too many. Well, you can inside the bars. Not too many. I mean, if you're playing the barchikon, maybe. Yeah. But but the fact is, those fifths work, the fact that it's tuned in fifths work with the scale of a violin, which is much shorter than a guitar. So, you know, you're whereas on a guitar, you know, you're you're basically looking at a seven fret uh span on the set on one string. Um, it's not like that on a violin. You know, you're within the same, basically within the same position. Um, the one tuning that I use a fair amount is C G D G A D, which the bottom three strings are the same as a cello. So there you've got that fifth tuning.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

And then you have the symmetry.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

You do have that symmetry, but but you you know, the guitar, I mean, um the the one guitar player um um that does that is what's his name from um from King Crimson.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Oh, uh Fripp.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Frip, yeah. Um the Fripp has his new standard tuning, which is, you know, and and also Stanley Jordan's always tuned in fourths, you know, it's so it's gone like it from a a D to a C and an F.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

What do you think of a chromatic maniac like Fripp? Do you do you find him enjoyable to listen to, innovative?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

I to be honest, I haven't really listened to him since I was a teenager. And of all of those, of all of those guitar players, the the the prog guitar players, the one that that I really saw the most, because he was always the opening act at Ronnie Scott's club when the jazz players were there, was Alan Holdsworth. And I always found it interesting that he, when anybody else was soloing, he wasn't comping in the background. He would just stand there smoke a cigarette like he was a sax player or something.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

I saw him live in Chicago many years ago, and I I observed the same thing. There's a keyboard.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

The other one, the other revelation for me, and and I mean this may have just been uh not entirely accurate, but I I got the impression watching John McLaughlin that he was never comfortable in 4-4.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Yeah, he was born born to jazz.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

He was born in 13, yeah.

unknown 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Holdsworth is acknowledged as a technical genius and and maestro. I I just find Holdsworth a little bit hard to listen to, frankly. I'm a big rock music, I'm a Pra rock fan. I acknowledge his genius just like the other guy, but I just find him exhausting.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Well, I I think that's true of that kind of musicianship that has the density of that it just it takes a lot of energy to follow. Um I I mean I in in you know, over the years, especially early on, I was doing some pretty freeform stuff and and some very uh I mean borderline prog stuff back in, you know, back when I was a teenager. But but my orientation really has always been to melody, to pop songs, to uh stuff that actually a more general audience is gonna appeal to have appeal to. And and I think that part of that also, as a studio musician, uh most of the time one is playing, you know, when I started, I mean I was doing a lot of pop records. Um once I got after Wings, once I got to LA, I was doing a lot more movie and and TV stuff, although still playing on some hit records. Um but the and those of course were very much kind of reading driven. But but it but part of my sensibility is I really love to improvise. Uh but that tends to be more either in the moment on an acoustic guitar or um when I'm doing when I'm playing solos, whether it's you know, with artists that I work with that are, you know, because as a record producer, there are certain artists that I work with that that there's space for improvisation. Um it's a little tougher when it's me on my own, because I'm also the accompanist as well as the soloist.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

You exhibit such diversity and duality in so many different ways. You know, you're you're in your bedroom learning your guitar, there's a neighborhood band, then you want to do session work. Then you do session work, and I'm assuming George Martin caught your eye.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

No, actually, that came about. Uh one of the very first sessions I did. Um, a good friend of mine, I played in the National Youth Jazz Orchestra, which was like a farm team for the studio world. And a good friend of mine, Paul Hart, was uh Cleo Lane's piano player. He also played bass in the National Youth Jazz Orchestra and was a phenomenal violinist too, and just one of those people that with an ear that could encompass anything, and a great arranger of uh many talents. Uh and he recommended me because they needed a guitar player for some sessions for an album that Cleo Lane was doing, Cleo being kind of an iconic English jazz singer. And um her husband, John Dankworth, I had worked with because he did arrangements for the National Youth Jazz Orchestra. And um so I found myself in a recording studio with you know George Martin producing.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

And what was it did it freak you out? You were a Beatles fan, and you grew up with with this stuff, and that there's the guy.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, I think that I mean, and this is I think it's true throughout my career is because I've worked with the guy and and the gal, you know, over the years. Um that the focus of being a professional it takes precedence over the fandom aspect of it. Um and and also the the desire to learn as much as I can from whoever it is that I'm working with. Um and you know, over the years, I mean, has a lot of it's been with singers, like you know, really mainstream singers or songwriters. You know, I've done a number of albums with Paul Williams, for example, uh, who is just a phenomenal songwriter. Um and back in the 70s, again, before Wings, I did a bunch of albums with Charles Asnavour, who is in Europe is is a was a phenomenon. I mean, I I one of the albums of his I played on, I discovered from my own Wikipedia page, I might add, that it was the number one in France for an entire year. Um you know, I I I I think the the experience of being in a recording studio with Danny Elfman or with um Alan Menckin or people that uh have such uh advanced sensibility when it comes to whether it's movie scoring or whether it's it's Disney level songwriting, or but you know, I mean my daughter Ilsie is a songwriter, so I got a call uh a few years ago, what are you doing this afternoon, Daddy? And it's like she had written a song with Harry Styles and they needed guitar on it. That was a song called Treat People with Kindness. So to be able to go into a studio and work within that kind of world, which is different from what I had you know had done in the past, is a um it's very satisfying to be able to uh approach something that's a more contemporary thing and then be able to bring my sensibility with it and have it work. Um and all of it really, I think it's to bring the experience of being in a uh on a sound stage with a full orchestra. I for example, I played on Colors of the Wind from Pocahontas. And there's eight double basses, three harps, a choir, huge orchestra, one acoustic guitar. Did you have the movie in the background? Um it was I didn't I couldn't see the movie because I'm looking at the music and and the conductor, you know.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

They have the whole orchestra and then the film playing.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Oh yeah. Well, that that's what happens. I mean, I remember when I the first sessions that I did at Paramount back in the 80s, that they there was no videotape. I mean, they would rack film, and the film would be playing on a big screen behind you where the conductor could see it. And if you made a mistake, they had to re-queue the film, re-queue the 24-track, you know. So by the time you get to Pro Tools and Digital Video, the whole system had changed because, okay, we have to do a retake, fine, let's go. As opposed to, okay, let's take a 10 while they reset everything. Um a challenging environment. But but I learned a lot in that process. And and I I think I consider myself to be just a perpetual student of the guitar.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

And a perpetual collaborator, given all these different dynamics with egos, personalities. You have people scoring for film, you have fellow band members, you have Paul McCartney. Paul McCartney invites you to join Wings.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yes, he did.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

You're the back to the egg guy. I am. How did that roll out, especially at that point in your career?

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Well, uh I was very firmly established as a session player.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

And musicians are crying right now that you're putting your guitar down and they're gonna leave me mean comment mean comments that I didn't ask you how you warmed up.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

I warm up by playing. I have arthritis in this thumb, so I need to just get things moving. But um, I was established as a studio player, and I was working some weeks, I was working seven days doing three sessions, sometimes four sessions a day. Uh because we would do a jingle session at 8 a.m. uh at Olympic, and then there'd be a 10 like till nine o'clock, then it'd be a 10 o'clock at Abbey Road, and a 2 o'clock at Triton and a 7 o'clock at the BBC. I mean, there were days like that when the most challenging thing was finding a place to park.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

You were like you were like Jimmy Page before the Yardbirds.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Yeah, well, Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones both were on a lot of sessions, you know. Uh and I I had found my niche, but when Paul McCartney asks you what you're doing for the next few years, what was he gonna say no to Paul McCartney? You know, I and I understand, I mean, I was in a point in my life where I could, um, but it was a delicate personally, it was a delicate time because my father had passed away a month earlier. So I was in a space where life was changing for me anyway, and I just couldn't I I couldn't not work with Paul and Linda and Danny. I mean, you know, because I had worked with Denny Lane on a TV show with David Essex about six months earlier, and Denny liked what I did and recommended me. Um and Steve Holly had joined the band on drums at the same time, and uh Chris Thomas was on board as a co-producer, and you know, within a couple of months we were up in Scotland recording, starting to record Back to the Egg. Um and I think that it's interesting because Paul doesn't necessarily look upon that period as his most creative, but when you get under the hood with that stuff, you realize, I mean, Arrow Through Me is a brilliant song. I mean, you know, all this this great musicality that was going into it. A lot of seven flat nine chords, you know. I mean, how many hit singles like you, yeah, because um uh good night tonight, you know, in E major, but with a very prominent B7 flat nine. Um a lot of thirteenth chords creeping in.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Where did that come from? Did that come from you? And to what extent were you able to do do the Lawrence Juber? Because you're playing with Paul McCartney. So, you know, hey Paul, um, instead of that F sharp minor, have you thought about a uh No, I didn't work like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Because I think uh and this is uh I think a really important point is that to respect the artist's contribution, uh as a producer, it's different. But as as the lead guitar player, I'm not necessarily gonna say, why don't you change this chord? Whereas, you know, when I mean Al Stewart would come over here, you know, I produce four albums for him, and and Al would come over and I would say, Well, could we try a different chord then? Or you're playing it on piano, go play it on guitar.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

You know, things like that. You wouldn't do that with Paul, because that level of kind of, I mean, he's such an icon.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yeah, that's what I'm asking.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

But but but on the lead guitar level and the textural level, I had a great deal of freedom. Um so you know, things like the solo on Spin It On, for example. I mean, that was me sitting in the control room with Paul right in front of me, just eye to eye, and me finding stuff that I didn't know I could play.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

That doesn't sound like it came out of Paul's. No, it didn't come out of it.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

That that that was my creativity, but but enhanced by Paul. Because as a producer, he has this great way of bringing stuff out of the people that he's working with. Um and so, but you know, I mean, uh some of that stuff, I mean, there's elements of rockabilly in there, but there's also kind of, you know, things like uh there's a song To You, where I'm playing in the studio, and Paul's in the control room messing with an even-tied harmonizer and changing the harmonies on everything I'm playing. So the more out he got, the more out I would get. So there you get this synergy going on, and that kind of thing is just very exciting to do. Um, but it doesn't happen every day of the week by any means.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

What about playing for stadiums? I mean, some younger viewers and listeners might not appreciate the sheer size of wings at that time. They were, you guys were big, and you guys did stadiums. And the reason I ask is because a lot of, you know, you're coming from maybe a more intimate kind of yeah. So right? So Lawrence is up there in front of 20, 30,000, 40,000 people.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I think the largest we played to on the UK tour was 20,000. But be honest, you only see the people in the front rows, you know. Um, because everything else just especially because I'm nearsighted and I wouldn't wear glasses on stage. I mean, you know, John Lennon could never see his audiences because he didn't have his glasses on. Um and I was, you know, that process really helped me overcome my shyness, my self-consciousness. Um, so in the course of time, I just became more um more in tune with the notion of performance as opposed to performing for the tape recorder or then you know eventually the the Pro Tools session.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Um I've seen videos of your live performances, you know, with wings, and you know, you you're you're doing the moves and you're rocking out.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah, you can't help but rock out when you've got a rhythm section like that. Um but I do think that you know as time's gone on, I've just I've gained a much deeper understanding of the the the dynamics of performance, uh of actually uh and and bringing that back into being uh studio musician also because it's all about performance. And even playing off something on the page, it's not like you're just playing notes, you have to perform it. And so I think that a lot of the maturity that developed over the course of time was just becoming more um flexible with interpreting what's on the page. And then as in terms of my solo work, I mean, my next album, I've done too many albums of Beatle arrangements, but I'm doing another one. This is I've got a feeling with the subtitle LJ is still playing the Beatles. Um but on this one, uh, of 14 tracks, 10 of them I did on a Benedetto Archtop, which is a different tonal picture. So rather than the density of An acoustic guitar and the sonority of that, the focus is different with more of a jazz guitar tone, but not the super tubby jazz guitar tone, it's still got the clarity. But but as a result, with that, it's looser. You know, I I find I try and find the swing in in all of it, even if it's not you know an actual swing tune. And that's I mean that's one of the things I learned, even in you know, out of musicology, is I mean, we you you look back at Bach or you look back at the you know the Baroque composers where they actually did have a sense of swing, but we have no recordings to know exactly how they really did it.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

The tempo.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

We don't even know the exact no, but you have a sense of it because if it's a borée, for example, then you know that was a dance.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Yeah, it can't be can't be too fast.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Well, I don't know. It could be. That's a I mean, there's some pretty fast dance sh dance forms, but but but what we really don't know is how much they s it swung. You know, we know that that they didn't play eighth notes evenly, you know, there's a French notion of notes in egal, like uneven notes, you know.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Syncopation a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

But also, you know, eighth notes being played as triplets.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Um, but you can swing without actually playing jazz.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

You know.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Um Ringo is the perfect example of that. I mean, how could a drummer play even eighth notes and still make it feel like it's swinging?

SPEAKER_02 45:40

You're shaking your butt when you're listening to to Ringo. And speaking of which, you played with Ringo too.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

I played on the Stop and Smell the Roses album, which means that I was in the studio with Ringo and Paul. I got to play with half the Beatles. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Talking about again this morphology of your career and the different aspects of your talent. So you go from wings to your solo work, and you've become known really as the finger-picking guy. One of those finger-picking guys.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Yeah, because I mean I've always looked at um Papina, for example, as a peer, you know. And I've I mean, for example, Tommy Emmanuel, I've shared the stage with him. I've actually recorded him in the studio. Um, and I have a great admiration for for those kind of players. It really goes back to, I mean, when I discovered Stefan Grossman and started learning ragtime tunes from his records and and just the um players like Eric Schoenberg and and kind of the old school finger style players from the from the 60s folk scene. But that goes back to early Bob Dylan. You know, 1963 was not just Beatlemania. It was also folk music as pop music. So there's Dylan.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Were you always finger picking throughout? No, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

So and I still am not always finger picking. I mean, uh a lot of the time on electricity.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

You made a transition then.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Well, I I had done it from the time like when I was playing Angie when I was 13.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

And I I I had to take classical guitar lessons because I wanted to study music. So I needed grade level on an on an instrument, and they started offering it in my high school, and I just jumped at that. Um and uh I, you know, playing lute, Renaissance lute when I was in college. It was finger style was very much a part of what I did, but it was it was simply a subset until after Wings, when I I moved to New York, I met Hope, who became my wife, who was from LA. I ended up living in LA where I've now been since 1981. Um and as, you know, with raising a family and you know, putting the kids to sleep, it's like, okay, I'll play some pretty guitar music. And pretty guitar things ended up becoming by 1990, uh, when I got offered a record deal by my friend James Lee Stanley, um, who I was working on a radio broadcast with him, and I played a little finger style thing. He said, Oh, I have a record label, you want to do an album? I mean, it was that simple. And so I shut myself away in my studio for three months, took a whole bunch of pieces that I'd kind of half-written over the previous decade, and recorded an album which was called Solo Flight. And that got, when it came out, I got radio airplay on it. And I then at that point also I needed a guitar with a cutaway, and I was led to Taylor guitars who were just getting started then. And so I started doing concerts, I became a clinician for them. Um, and then in the course of time, it just kind of evolved. I started doing alter-tuning stuff, I started getting an audience in Europe and in Asia, and and it um it was uh it was a progression.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Um that's fascinating to me, that kind of evolution and that kind of jump. If you look at most of the iconic guitar players, we talked about Steve Vai, even, Robert Fripp, Ingwe as well, the neoclassical shredder. They haven't changed all that much in terms of their overall attack, their approach to the instrument, and none of them had made this kind of transition in this albeit radical kind of way from what would be considered rock guitar with wings, even doing soundtrack work, and then being uh really a world-class finger-picking acoustic player.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Well, I think it was all very synergistic. I mean, for example, I played on a TV show, uh the composer named Dan Follier, uh, who I'd worked with on Roseanne and Home Improvement. Um, he scored a TV show called Seventh Heaven. And he's a guitar player, but he would not play guitar in his own sessions because he does he's not technically adept for that. But he would write stuff in alter tunings that I had to learn to, I had to figure out how to sight read in weird alterings, not just like Daggad, but weird alter tuning. And we figured out a way of doing it where if I saw an E of the top uh top space on the stave, I would play the open E. But that might have been tuned to an E flat or a D. So I had to kind of divide my brain in half between what I was seeing and what I was hearing. But in the course of doing that, over 11 years, it coincided with developing my signature guitar at Martin. So I would get a prototype guitar, take it into Capitol Studios, and be able to hear it recorded with like great microphones through a Neve console and really have a sense of what you could do with different woods, whether it was Indian rosewood, Brazilian Rosewood, mahogany, Adirondack spruce tops, sitka spruce tops, whatever. Um, I learned a lot about the Luthery side of it from that. And in doing so, it just evolved in terms of what I was doing compositionally, because I was also uh at the same time as that actually composing. I mean, I was doing movie scores, I was doing TV scores, I was doing um, I did a video, I did the Diablo 3, which was um video game. Video game. Uh and theme park stuff. I wrote for Disney C uh theme park in Tokyo, I wrote the music that 20 years ago we recorded it, no, 25 years ago, it still plays on a continuous loop in their Magellan's restaurant. I mean, stuff like that is it's applied musicianship. Um, and you know, whether it's being done for a commercial purpose where somebody writes me a decent sized check so I can you know devote my time to it, or whether it's me doing it for my own artistic satisfaction, uh, but over the course of the last couple of decades, I mean, I went into finger style guitar really as a composer. My first two albums were strictly my own compositions, and then I did a Christmas album, and it's like, oh, I can do arrangements. And then when people started asking me for an album of Beatles songs, because I had a couple of Beatles songs that I'd arrange, but Hope said to me, if you don't do it for anybody else, do it for me. And I said, Okay, you produce, I'll arrange and play and record. So that it over the years has evolved now. I mean, 25 years later, you know, the next album is coming out in May. Um, and it's I I can see the progression in the course of doing it. But I and the satisfaction for me of taking songs that have been familiar, but then getting under the hood and just figuring out where is the nexus of this particular tune with the guitar. And I one of my favorites was uh when I was trying to figure out how to do an arrangement of back in my first Beatle album of Strawberry Fields Forever. And I could not figure out how to do it at first because you know the record is in the cracks, it's between B flat and A, because there were two versions, one slowed down, one sped up, they met in the middle. And in standard tuning, B flat is I mean, it's a jazz key, really, you know, because you've got a lot of bar chords, not the most friendly for doing an arranger, especially a tune like that, which has a lot of nuance to it, um, that needed the use of open strings and you know different stuff that you couldn't do in standard tuning. And then um Daggad would be the next logical thing. I tried it in A, didn't make sense, and then B flat, then everything fell into place, and then it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Lovely. Thank you. Lovely, lovely, lovely.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

And and seeing you play it, especially with your arrangement, the the core melody itself is so odd and unexpected, right? Like so many, so many of the Beatles songs, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:43

But John in particular just has this such an intuitive way of doing it. I think Paul tends to lean a little more heavily on the great American songbook and on, you know, um kind of the the more mainstream, as it were. Um, but John does odd bars, there's weird, you know, weird progressions. Um and but but there's a logic, there's an internal logic to it. And I think over the years I've become more appreciative of of the progression in John's writing. I mean, um, you know, starting off really kind of in the Roy Orbison, Smokey Robinson kind of uh kind of rockabilly.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Rockabilly and Delta Blues, and also the keyboard factored into their composition as well.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yeah, but but that was more of a Paul thing. I mean, I yes, John, I mean, you know, the opening of uh Strawberry Fields, I mean, that's John on you know, John's Mellotron thing. But um, but I think generally that Paul is the more keyboard-oriented, mostly because he had this more keyboard skill, you know, whereas John being more kind of guitar-oriented with it. But you know, it depends uh which album you're looking at, too. And the you know, the fact that uh the white album was basically demoed on acoustic guitar, written and demoed on acoustic guitar.

SPEAKER_02 59:17

And and in separate rooms, no less, at that point.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

Well, they did get together at George's, you know, to record a bunch of stuff, the the Isha tapes. But um but I think by yeah, by the end of the Beatles, I mean they were in different studios, you know, working, you know, basically uh Abbey Road is almost kind of like a a simultaneous uh solo album from John and Paul and George.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

They had already checked out in ways.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

But but but then their their studio capability, the the years of experience of being able to get in there and put together those three-part harmony vocals, and to be able to cut a track with all the elements you know that that they were able to put into what they did. And and you listen to some of the remixed stuff. I mean, drive my car, you know, the kick drum and the bass guitar on that are just killer. But you didn't get all of that, especially when some of the uh in America when when uh some of those um earlier albums were being you know, where they're adding reverb, uh the pressing plant, you know, stuff like that. And you didn't you also didn't get the integrity of the albums that they made in England, where you had the 14 tracks with no singles, you know, and and that that was a philosophy that Paul maintained. I mean um Goodnight Tonight was sci was contemporaneous with the Back to the Egg album, but it wasn't on the album. Um and in fact the B side of that, Daytime, Nighttime Suffering, I think is a wonderful song that is a a bookend to Another Day in terms of you know, because another day really being the first true kind of Paul Solo single, and then you go to the end of the decade and you've got Daytime, Nighttime Suffering kind of having um uh a similar a similar kind of uh woman kind of story about a woman you know on a day-to-day level. Interesting uh correspondence in terms of the lyric. Um but I mean I did an arrangement of another day for my One Wing album. Because when I when we gave Paul my LJ Plays the Beatles, he said, What about wings? So Hope kept reminding me about that. And eventually, and and you know, if you really like break down the bass line on another day, this place is where the bass is is like you know, in in sevenths sometimes with the melody. But it's like Bach. The counterpoint is so compelling that you st you don't realize where the dissonance is. And that's I think that's really I think what part of what really intrigues me about writing, you know, arranging and and doing counterpoint, you know, with a bass line and a melody or you know, additional parts, is first of all, how cool it sounds. Secondly, that that what the and I always love the fact you know with classical guitar players that the fingers are doing something and you can't believe what you're hearing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:37

Right. That's with you, that's with you. That's what people hear when you play. Like where is it, where is it, where is it coming from?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Where is it coming from? And and and then, you know, but it comes from the instrument and it comes from understanding what the instrument can do. Uh I think we're, you know, right now is it's kind of a vulnerable time, I think, for people that are getting into the guitar, because there is a tendency to kind of like Google something and get an AI response, which really doesn't correspond to reality. You know, I mean, um, I don't think that um a large language model like Claude or or ChatGPT is capable of figuring out guitar fingerings in a lived experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

The lived experience playing the instrument.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:31

And the fact is, you line up a dozen professional guitar players, and they're all going to finger things differently. You know, and I've been with guitar players, it's like, what the hell are they playing? And then I, you know, I have to stop and think, oh, yeah, well, that's really just a G7, but they're fingering it in a way that I would never do.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

Um the Jimi Hendrix thumbs up.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

The sum that goes on forever, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

And part of the resistance is lost. All the resistance is lost. You're you're talking about the opposite of ease of use. When when the Beatles recorded, when you were recording a lot of your work, 70s, 80s, tapes. You literally you literally took a razor blade to the magnetic strip in order to edit uh track.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

That's how I learned to edit was with a razor blade. And when Pro Tools came along, it was like, yay, I can actually do it, you know, do it visually and crossfade too.

unknown 1:04:30

I mean yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:31

So hopefully, I mean, AI could be seen as a Pro Tools, but to your point, it's it's more violative than that when it comes to stealing, stealing the work of people like you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

Well, I think that AI is useful. Uh it's useful in in a number of circumstances, but what it can't replace is is natural creativity. You know, when when things get complicated for an artist, you know, sometimes the art emerges out of the complexity. When things are complicated for AI, it starts to hallucinate. Because it starts feeding on stuff that isn't accurate to begin with, and you end up with often with gibberish.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

So no reference points in the real world. It's just code. It's just math.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

Yeah. Um and and nothing AI can replace the experience of seeing somebody actually making music live.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

It has, as I say, it has its uses. Um it can be, I mean, for example, Stem Splitter, which is built into logic, but you can use other apps for that. I mean, I've I've used it often when somebody will send me a demo and I want to make a new arrangement, but at least have the vote guide vocal, and I can strip away everything but the vocal and build a new track around it. Um that kind of Is really good. I'm I I would hesitate to use AI to master a track. I'd much rather use engineers with decades of experience, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

Well, well, thank you so much, Lawrence. I want to be respectful of your time. I do want to cap this with one observation, which goes full circle. When when I spoke with Papino, we worked with Dr. Barbara Minton, and they've been doing sessions related to music and brain activity, using music as a healing salve for people suffering from PTSD other conditions. The one thing that strikes me more than anything else about your story and how you relate to music is, in a sense, your cerebral plasticity. And by this I mean you're you're you're assigning circumstance an awful lot of credit for your accomplishments and success. Where, well, I was just in a circumstance where they needed a music score, or I happened to meet this musician and they were they were asking for this kind of music. But I think most people are inundated by possibility. And there are very few people who embrace possibility from the vantage point of wanting to learn and master something new. And to me, your career and your accomplishments evoke this feeling of flexibility, embracing the new, learning entirely new skills, often from scratch, and lastly, excelling at it, which is awesome. Well, thank you. I just want to let you know that you are unique in the sense that you embrace possibility and excel at it. And it's very, very rare to see this kind of talent and enthusiasm for creativity.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Well, I I appreciate your observations. I was actually I played at a house concert one time when a lady approached me and said, I'd like to take a slice of your brain while you're playing. But I do think, I mean, I you know, really to finish up is the fact that there's the notes and there's the performance, but there's also just being inside the music. And you know, and I'm very fortunate in that my wife Hope, because she has a background in theater, she's a writer. Um, and we've worked together a lot in theater. We've written, you know, we wrote Gilligan's Island the Musical together, for example. Um, and I've worked with a lot of people who really understand the nature of communicating emotion in what you do, that it really it breaks down the barrier between the performer and the audience. Uh it's not a one-way thing, it's a two-way thing because I feed off, I listen to what the audience is hearing. You know, and I that's how I you know, I close my eyes and I'm listening just like the audience is listening. And it always every audience is different, but but to find that uh that plane of of creativity where uh the possibilities are open. You know, and I think that that's it's not to not to work within a box, but to be open to to what and to be open to the spontaneity that that requires too, to be able to, you know, and I wish that I I had more um uh comedic skill because there's times when, you know, and I I I I I'm not as I've done some improv, you know, like theater improv, but I don't have that that quite that spontaneity that some of some of the people I I know have. But but what it does, but what I have cultivated is just that ability to play from inside the music, and to then be able to project that and and have audiences uh be taken to a different place. You know, done I've done concerts where people that were on the verge of divorce have reconciled, for example, which is very gratifying that I making music that would have that impact. Yeah. But it's you know, it's it's being having the life of a musician and and really being dedicated to it, I think, is you know, that's kind of what's driven it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:42

Peppino expressed a similar sentiment that the greatest joy that he gets is when his music and the channeling of all this energy and creativity can move someone in that way that makes their life better.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

Yeah, and he's got that Italianate sensibility. A quick Pepino story just to finish up. Um, he and I did a show in Pasadena in the early 90s, right after the Northridge earthquake. And the green room was it was in a in a church, and the green room was the vestry, and we we're getting ready to go out for an encore where we were going to play together, and we looked at each other and we put choir robes on and went out and played Mercy, Mercy, Mercy together. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:33

But you know, Peppino has that kind of sense of humor, and we, you know, for those who've only seen Peppino or you know, just or heard him on the record, he's a great storyteller, he's got that Italian kind of and and a and a terrific chef, too. Oh, that I didn't know. I didn't know, which is which is not unexpected to give the double negative there. That's that's terrific. My last observation, okay, and this might be totally left field. You remind me a little bit of Sir Roger Penrose. Are you familiar with him? The physicist you have a similar look, and your mannerisms and the way you enunciate is very similar. Okay. I just want that observation. Check him out. Roger Penrose. He's a good guy. Thank you so much. Oh, you're welcome, Lawrence Juber joining us.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:28

And thank you for making time. And uh like, comment, share, everybody. We're gonna put your description and links to your new album.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:38

Well, my link to my website because that's the website.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:40

Link to your website so people people can follow you and and get your stuff and uh and keep on the pulse of of Mr. Lawrence Juber. Thank you so much. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Wonderful, wonderful time.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

It's been a fun, fun hour and a bit. Fun hour. Thank you. All right, cheers.