Jesse Krakow Flips Raving Fandom into a Creative Tsunami

On this 102nd episode of No Hair, All Heart your favorite bald host Mookie Spitz is thrilled to go full ADHD with the legendary musician, producer, bandleader, teacher, radio host, and industry connector Jesse Krakow: He's the musician's musician thanks to playing with everyone cool while somehow showing up wherever the interesting stuff is popping.

Jesse's jet fuel is fan obsession. As a kid, he dove headfirst into the weird end of the pool—Zappa, Beefheart, outsider bands, avant-prog—and never stopped swimming. That energy carried straight into Time of Orchids, his long-running experimental band, and into a career defined by constant motion: new projects, thrilling collaborators, and endless experimental rabbit holes.

One of the wildest threads is his deep connection to The Shaggs, the famously unpolished, totally singular band from the ’60s. Jesse loves them, tracked them down, organized a tribute, built relationships with the surviving members, and helped bring their music back into the world as a full-fledged multimedia revival. That’s how he rolls: If Jesse's energized, he dives in and makes it happen.

His conversation with Mookie moves like his career: fast, sideways, and occasionally off the rails. Jesse tells wild stories, contemplates the value of failure while revelling in success, and bursts with ideas and enthusiasm. They talk about The Muse ignoring then inspiring the greats, and how brillance can end any second, stressing the need to double-down before she goes belly-up. 

That mindset is all over Jesse’s process. He’s always thinking about music, working ideas out, playing gigs and publishing. Collaboration is baked into everything—bands, revivals, and teaching. His advice to young musicians is exciting and clear: make it good, believe in yourself, and listen to people who have been there and done that. 

The Guest

Jesse Krakow is a multi-instrumentalist, producer, composer, sideman, teacher and music director. He was a co-founder of the experimental rock band Time of Orchids, a touring bassist for Shudder To Think and a member of The Shaggs/Dot Wiggin Band. He has worked with John Zorn, Paul Rudd, Kate Pierson (The B-52’s), Gary Lucas (Captain Beefheart), Nina Persson (The Cardigans), Jello Biafra (Dead Kennedys), Gilbert Gottfried, Nona Hendryx (LaBelle), Roddy Bottum (Faith No More), Julee Cruise (“Twin Peaks”), Chris Butler (The Waitresses), and longtime NYC institution The Losers Lounge, among many others. He was awarded a Fellowship from The Brooklyn Philharmonic, hosted the weekly radio show “Minor Music” on WFMU, a Professor at Bootsy Collins’ Funk University, and has recorded re-creations of albums by Hulk Hogan and Corey Feldman. Currently he is the MD for MANDONNA: an all-male tribute to Madonna. His most recent recording is "Bastards of Prog", released on Cuneiform Records in July 2026 under the name KRAKHOUSE.

Get More Jesse

BoP: https://cuneiformrecords.bandcamp.com/album/bastards-of-prog

HULK: https://jessekrakow.bandcamp.com/album/hulk-rules

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@jessekrakow7127

ToO: https://timeoforchids.bandcamp.com/album/sarcast-while

SHAGGS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uecAAN6E6yY

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone, welcome to the All Heart Podcast. I'm your all host, Mookie Spitz. I'm thrilled! We have the guy with all the heart today. None other than the legendary Jesse Krakow. Or Jesse. Hey Spooky, good to see you. Your reputation precedes you. What'd you have for breakfast?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Uh man, I had grape nuts with almond milk and strawberries.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I bet you you could write a Captain Beefheart-inspired uh Zappa jazz tune to that breakfast.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

I could, you know, actually, I wrote a song. Um when I teach, I'm because I'm a music teacher of uh among other things I do, and I have this little uh exercise I do with my students, uh, and we wrote a song called Pizza for Breakfast, which is like my ultimate beef heart zabba prog.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Perfect. See, I knew that. I knew that. The last time I saw you, you were in teacher mode. Sure. You you came to give guitar lessons to Oliver Rips, who was a teenager at the time. And I remember you in the other room showing him the chords to Ziggy Stardust, and you were you were talking about the arrangement and how it captured the essence of the mood and ethos, and I was into it. I wanted to leap in there and like join you guys, and you know, I don't think Oliver really gave a shit, but I think I was impressed by your skills. So you are a polymath. Time of orchids going way back, right? And now you brought the shags together.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

I did he'll get the shags back together, yeah. It's been a whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

And you're you're the kind of guy whom all insiders know and have probably played with. And that's flattering. Yeah, and and yet you're not the household name that I think you deserve.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Well, they know me in my house.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

That's all that counts, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah. It's actually it's actually it's actually crazy um to to pinpoint this to this moment exactly. Um there was a spe speaking of my house, um, there is a film that was it it premiered at uh South by Southwest. It's called We Are the Shags, and it's a doc documentary about the Shags. My favorite band, um, directed by Ken Kwapis. And Ken came to my house and interviewed me.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

See what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Everyone knows Jesse. But you know, my name is in the school as Mookie, man.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Mookie's a better name, so um Jesse Mookie Krakow. Wow, people think we're at least we're not dressed in the same color, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

No, but but I had a cat named Mookie.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

There you go. So there you go, yeah. And my nickname comes from dogs, Hungarian pulley dogs are sometimes given the name Mookie because they run around barking, herding sheep, getting on everyone's nerves. And I think my dad thought I was small and barking and annoying, and that's the orange in the name.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

I thought Mookie was just was a term for you're such a mookie. You're like you're so cute. Yeah, the Italian guy is such a mook.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

I'm a mook. Right. But please tell us more about the Shags because you've you've you've brought them back.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

I think you know, with the Shags, I think in their well, for all of your listeners who don't know, the Shags were uh a band from the 1960s. There were three sisters, Dot, Betty, and Helen, and um they were essentially forced to become a band per their dad's wishes. Her their dad worked at a I believe he worked at a steel mill in New Hampshire, and he uh had this his his mother had this uh uh I don't know if it's Paul I'm reading some kind of epiphany that among uh among many things, her granddaughters, his sons would grow up to be in a in a rock band. And he to cut long story short, he forced them to become a band, took them out of school, made them rehearse, take calisthenics. Kind of like the Jacksons, right? Kind of like the Jacksons, yeah. Um or or or uh in in a way, uh Maury Wilson and the Wilson brothers, but their music is so um, you know, people say it's jarring. Some people said it's the worst music ever because the it's it's it's out of tune, uh, the drums are out of time, they have very strong New Hampshire accents, the lyrics are childish and quirky. Just stop your alley, Jesse. You went through the technologists on why you adore them. But not only my alley, my my alley mookie, you know, I think there's so many people in the who love zap and beefheart and Wesley Willis and whatever. Um, so I became obsessed with them, and I put together a uh uh a tribute to them uh 14 years ago, and I wound up asking some of my favorite musicians and friends to take part. They said yes, which was insane, and then I decided that I want to raise money for Fremont Town, the Fremont Town Hall uh uh area, uh Fremont, Fremont, New New Hampshire, the Fremont Town Hall in New Hampshire, where the Shags played Saturday night dances for like five years. Say that three times again. But um, I actually threw that I met a man named Matthew Thomas Thomas who gave me the number of Dol Wigan, who's a singer of the Shags, and a legend. A legend, and I wound up inviting her and her family down to the show, paid for them to come, we put them up, we treated them like royalty, we played this whole show for them, and the next day they came to our house, we had a brunch, and Dol told me that there were some songs, some unreleased Shag songs, unfinished Shag songs.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

So then we started collaborating, and then we made an album, and then Jello Biafra put it out, and then Yeah, Jello Biafra, by the way, is the lead singer for the dead. Kenneth is the only singer for the dead.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, and also, you know, hope he's doing better. He's had he's had a rough update.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Went through this the feeds that he had a stroke and he's having a hard time. He's having a hard time, but we're gonna we love our Jell-O though, transformative.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Let me tell you something. The dude is a mensch because when I was sending out demos for the Dot Wigan band to try to get you know a deal, as much as as much as you can get a record deal these days, um, I got you know, it was radio silence for so many different people, so many different labels. But um, the day he received the the demo, he called me out of the blue and Jesse, this is Jell Biafra.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Jesse, this is Jell-O Biafra.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Exactly. Yeah, that voice, and then he goes, Dodd Wigan, will wonders never cease. And it was like, that's yeah, yeah. So we the Dod Wigan band, I I had to leave the band for a little bit when I bought a house and parenting got crazy, but uh Brittany Andrew took over.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

You're not allowed to grow up, Jesse.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I know, dude. Going on, man. I know, man. Well, in this case, it was good because um when I had to step away, Britney got the band on tour with Neutro Milk Hotel, which was just insane, and then they were playing all these shows, and uh there was you know re-releases of of the Shags album, and then eventually Glenn from Wilco asked me to help reunite the Shags.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Yeah, you're in that you're in the nexus of all of this indie underground prague zappa-esque avant-garde music.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Uh maybe.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

That's that's nice to you, it's nice for you to say that. I think that's fair. You know, you don't need to be demure. It's uh, you know, you're you're known within the community, and most significantly you foster this kind of collaboration and rebirth of talent.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Well, I tried, I mean, that's really nice of you to say, Mookie. I mean, I I think um without sounding righteous or anything, um, there's so much amazing music out there. Um, and I know the music that's really touched me, uh, maybe didn't maybe it wasn't popular, you know, uh or these people weren't successful, but I love the music and I want to honor it as much as possible, whether it's whether it's Shags or Captain Beef Art or wrestling, because I love wrestling music. Um it's all part of course you do. Well, wrestling, come on, it's it's awesome. It's it's ridiculous ridiculous. It's ridiculous, it's homoerotic, you know, it's drama, it's it's all that shit. Um so whatever I can do to be in that world, I know so to backtrack in um in 1996 when I moved to New York, I joined a band called Super Cream, and they uh they we went we wound up getting a development deal with with Atlantic Records or demo deal, yeah, development deal, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Um this again, just for our younger viewers and listeners, this was back in the day, pre-digital, pre-streaming. There's no Spotify, there's no on-demand. If you start a band and if you want to be heard or distributed, you need to go through channels, you need to do what Jesse's describing used to get done. It's still kind of done. If you can get your ass on the radio, that's a benefit.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

But right. I'll tell you what doesn't get done is that uh they paid us three thousand dollars for a four-song demo that if they liked what they heard, they would give us more to make you know uh more of a a demo, right? These days, uh you're not gonna get that to make a record. You make the record. I know you could you could try to sell swag at your show to make some money. So that's how long ago it was. But but what happened was um uh they passed on us, and I wound up getting a our band wound up cycling through like three different managers in a year and a half, and lying we I remember we had a we had a manager who told us, listen, you guys have been at it for a year right now. Some people know who you are right now, so we have to change your story. So we need to start telling people that you guys uh you know you guys have been a band for like a week or so, that nobody knows who you are, you just happen to have this electric connection, um, and you need to really pass it off as like, uh let's see what happens, and not, you know, lie basically. And we had a meeting with a guy, an AR guy from Sony, named Ben Goldman, and um I lied right to this guy's face, and I'm a good liar, I'm a good actor. And uh the next day after this meeting, my manager called me up screaming and saying, They all, you know, you know, they all uh did research, they know that you were lying, how could you do this to them? And and I think at that point, Mookie, I was like, I don't want to be part of this fucking major label fucking that's like come on. So that was I don't know if that was like a hard, you know, end of the chapter By the way, which one is pink?

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Right, yes, yes. And and you were you were right in the in the midst of it, and early on, you're just kind of like, really? Is this what it takes?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah, no, I was I was 20 years old, I was like, fuck that. Yeah, I mean, not not that, you know, I mean I and I played on major label releases and stuff like that as a session musician and stuff like that, right? But I knew but I knew as I was getting more into people like John Zorn or Eric Dolphy or you know, Stravinsky or the Shags, it's like I'd rather do I'd rather work a day job and be like Ian Mackay from Minor Threat, who worked at Hogendas to fund you know his record labels. D to do that for a while and see where that leads me.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

There's no shame. Yeah, a mathematician who helped um you know the the geniuses along with the twin prime conjecture worked at Subway. Really? Yeah, yeah, true, true story. Wow. So uh, you know, genius is everywhere, and the whole point is do what you need to do to maintain your integrity, and most significantly your creative independence.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, that's a key. I can't always say that I've had I can't always say that I've maintained my integrity over my life because I've don't ask my exes. Yeah, well, I I I do know uh there were so many times as as a musician, or I I guess as sorry, as as any creative person or as any fucking freelancer will do, you know, it's all about gigs. We don't we have careers, but we have our life is a sendless uh um number of gigs, right? So it's saying no to a gig or saying yes to a gig. And I've like really had to tuck my tuck my junk between my legs, you know, on a couple of auditions and stuff like that. Where I'm like halfway through it, I'm like, I can't believe I'm actually doing this, and I'm playing with the shittiest guitar player of all time. Um because I think that there's like, you know, 100k in the near future.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Life is a series of compromises, and we're all hookers one way or another. So the question is do you want to be a happy hooker? Do you want to be a rich hooker? Or do you just want to hook your way through life with least resistance and get on to the next trick, basically? So Wow. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's we you need to stay pragmatic, but but the important lens to view this through is that you're playing, you're an active musician, you're not just a concept guy, but you're gigging, you're writing, you're collaborating, you're interacting with the musical community on all these different levels. And that's one thing I've loved about your career is you you can't just pin down Jesse. He's playing with people you wouldn't expect him to play with, he's transformative in surprising ways, and you're pragmatic. You're you're kind of rolling with it. I think these are pluses. Well, thank you. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

I think that's cool, as cool as hell. You know, it's it's uh I I've I think with any in you know, I first of all I don't necessarily view myself through the through the lens of being an independent artist. It just ha the shit just happened that way. You know, we kind of just stumble into stumble into things, like you said. Um with that, the idea of of of realizing that failure it's not fun to fail, but it's good. It's good to fail. It's very informative. Yeah, you it's it's it's a it's an interesting way of there of uh it's an interesting kind of therapy. It's a cheaper way of of it's a cheaper therapy.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

What what constitutes some of the monumental failures and what did you learn? How are you a better person for fucking up?

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Wow. Shit. Okay, God. Too many stories, dude.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Um this is fun. Once again, it's like you you've been so plugged in, everything from apocryphal little diddies to backstage annex to uh you know someone showing up high and falling off the stage. I mean, you've you've seen it all.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Well, okay, so all right, well, two things. Talking about falling, here's one. Um I was in Taiwan 20 years ago. Um, and uh I was I was in Japan, then we were going to Taiwan. Uh, and at this time I was working a day job. I had basically spent all my money financing my bands and uh had no money, and I left, I had been fired from my day job that I had taken a leave of absence for to go on tour. And I'm in Japan, my first time in Japan. We had this long day to go to a festival called Spring Stri Spring Scream in Taipei, and I'm playing with a band called Dynamite Club, and we get there, and it's it's it's uh it's an endless day to get from Tokyo to Taipei. Basically, like going from Hussan Bus of Tokyo to to like the middle of nowhere, Taipei, up on a hill, like this like Lollapalooza type of thing. And we get there, I'm so tired, all I want to do is sleep. But it turns out all the bands are literally in this giant bunk room, and everybody's just throwing all their shit on the beds, so I can't even sleep. I there's no place for me to roll up my my sleeping bag and sleep. So we just start like hanging out and partying, and we're drinking and eating, and it's it's April in in Taipei, and it's very humid in Southeast Asia. It's Taiwan, so you're off the coast and you're steamy. I'm steam steamy and I sweat a lot. I'm a I'm a big Polak. I I sweat a lot. And the bathrooms at this place, uh at the festival grounds, were like basically you can go pee here, you can go pee here. In between that, there are miles and miles of of things to do. So every time I needed to piss, all right, I'd go walk there, and I come back and I'd be schwitzing, like, all right, well, drink something else. And I wasn't really drinking alcohol, I was just drinking. And after my second time, I'm like, I don't want to walk five miles to go piss. So I and but by the way, it's midnight, it's pitch flak. I go over, I see this little sausage stand. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go pee behind there. I go over there, I pull down my pants, and I fall 15 feet down off the side of a hill. And I raise up my arm, and I'm falling, and a rock lacerates my armpit. And I climb back up the hill, and I'm in shock. I'm in fucking shock. And I go you didn't even get a chance to piss, it sounds like I didn't get a chance to piss. Long story short, I wound up going to the hospital. They almost need to give me a uh a brain uh blood transfusion. They give me my surgery. I missed the whole festival. Um I'm in contact. My dad and I might call my dad. My dad is helping me. Howie! Howie!

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Best guy ever we should share some Howie stories too. I love I got yeah, yeah, yeah, he loves you.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

We're like two old Jews. You're a you're you're a young you're a younger Jew. Um but basically I uh I was able to get out of the hospital um because the the day we had to leave to go from Taiwan back to Japan. And that morning they they didn't know if I could stay. The band might have had to fly back to Japan, tour without me, I might have had to stay in Taiwan.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

So were you were you playing bass with the band? Could the bass go on without you? Like, you know, f fuck you, Jesse, tough shit, we're gonna keep touring.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

They probably could have, yeah, but I also had another band who I was gonna meet up with for a tour right afterwards. So literally, I'm in the hospital, you know, like this, up to an IV, and they let me go, and I'm like, I'm gonna sling. I'm like, well, I I can do this, okay. I gotta go. So I wind up doing a whole tour and a half in a sling like this. Wow, you know, less clay less clay pool can kiss your ass. He kiss my ass. But what I learned what I learned from that failure is that if you have to sleep, go to sleep. And I really I really started to trust my own. If you need to take a piss in the middle of the night, be careful. Yeah, be careful. But also, you know, when I but the beautiful thing about that story, which leads into another utter failure, um, was that uh when I was lying in the hospital, for the first two days, I had nothing. I because I didn't I didn't bring a bag with me. There literally like an ambulance came and we drove two fucking hours. And it was it was it was not a good experience. And after two days, one of my bandmates drove two hours to bring me a bag of my of a book, a fan's notes by Frederick Exley. And um my disc band, because this is that's how old it was, and I was listening to a CD by a band called Shudder to Think. Uh the album's called Pony Express Record, which is just one of my favorite records. And within a year I was playing uh bass for the guitar for the lead singer of Shudder to Think. And then a year later, I was in Shudder to Think. Sounds like divine intervention. It was pretty amazing. It was kind of amazing. I don't, I mean, I don't I think I could have reached that goal without almost dying.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

But um circumstance. You just kind of wing it, see what happens, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

But yeah, but you have to glean wisdom through that failure of being able to, you know. I I couldn't piss, but you know, you what's the what's what's the upshot?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

You know, you just keep going. Yeah, but that but that's a great story where you you flip adversity and turn it into something, but that's rock and roll, right? It's like uh I remember like being fans of a high school rock band, they were called Stonehenge, and I was basically a drummer, yeah. And the uh tall blonde guitar player inspired me to start playing guitar. Yeah, and I remember they were playing so loud that the neighbors came banging on the front door and we went out there, and a bunch of old guys from the neighborhood were chastising us. Yeah, and they were saying that basically you guys are a bunch of losers, you're never gonna get anywhere, and rock and roll sucks because any old fool can grab a guitar and start to sing. And we're like, that's the whole fucking point. Yeah, sure. Here, here, go, here, here's, here's mine. Play something, yeah. Yeah. So that kind of recklessness and randomness, I think, is is the embodiment of of creativity, of music, of doing it.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Yeah, that's that's that's right. Listen, this shit with with with me um putting together this Shags thing, you know, uh 14 years ago, um it could have failed spectacularly. Um but and in some ways it's kind of Shags revival now, though, right? Well now that there's um now that there's this movie that's that just premiered at South by Southwest, um it's uh so apparently it went really well. I actually just saw a copy last night. It's really weird to see yourself in a movie. It's my first time seeing myself.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, man, you're so demure, and just to give listeners and viewers context, right? You like help revive this band. There's a film, it's it's premiering, and uh and you're in it as as an agent of a catalyst of their resurrection.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah, yeah. I mean that's the that would be the way to put it. Um and I think they're gonna be entering it into some other film festivals, um you know, which are you know, there are many in in in the world. Uh so let's hope, you know, let's wish the best that that they can find a distributor or a streaming platform. And until then, you know, we're we're just we're just gonna enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Let's talk music within the context. I mean, you've been cranking it for decades, and and your orchids band goes goes back, right? Yeah, time of orchids, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

That's goes back to the I mean at least the nineties nineties, right? We we started in 1999, we split in 2007, but we um yeah, we did a lot. We did a lot, and that was the ultimate uh that band was really influenced by well, I can tell you this for all your readers who know what the village voice was. Um I I saw an ad in The Village Voice. That used to be The Rag, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

The village, yeah, that was the shit. That that had everything. That was the shit, not only in New York, but beyond. I mean, you know, there are reviews of of bands, of of artists. You know, if you got into the village voice, then that was that was you've arrived as an artist. I think.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Well, I'll tell you this. First of all, yes, Michael Musto was on a show called The Gossip Show. So I knew him as a when I was 12 years old, I knew who Michael Musto was from Village Voice. My great-grandpa, uh Jacob Krakow, uh was actually he was Jacob, Howie, and Jesse. Yeah, and I well, I and and I named my son after him, after Jacob. He uh he was featured in the Village Voice. He was they wrote an article about him in 1983. Uh, I think at that time he was 100, turned 100, but he was a socialist who came over, he was an avid socialist who of course he was. Yeah, but that's the kind of stuff that you would find in the village voice. You could find rock bands, this, and then you could find these these, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

You would it was a commie, pinko, creative rad.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

And in the classifieds, besides finding classifieds for any kind of hooker that fit your taste, um whatever your peccadillo, you would go to the uh the village voice. So if you're in if you're a commie into kink and alternative music, the village voice was for you. All right, I'm writing down kinky commie. That's a song I'm kinky kami. That that that that's material right there.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yeah, yeah. But in the but in the village voice, and uh there was an ad looking for a bass player who was uh into um Mr. Bungle, which one of my favorite bands, uh a metal band called Yeah, and then Neurosis, which was a metal band, um credible, beautiful heavy metal band, and Depeche Mode. Oh, who are they? Yeah, right. So when I saw when I saw that, I was like, well, I need this sounds amazing. And that became Time of Orchids, and we uh joining them really strengthened my resolve to be like, no, this is I want to make I don't want to necessarily make uncompromising music, I just want to be uncompromising in the music that I make. Where did the name come from, Time of Orchids? Our our leader, Chuck Stern, the the the late and very much missed Chuck Stern, who wrote who wrote all of our words. Um and you know, th through through just sheer discipline and fuck the world, we uh we wound up I mean it's one of the craziest things is that we wound up making a record for John Zorn, who was a legendary New York composer of indescribable w what he what he has done. Um and I used to write him fan letters when I was a kid. Yeah. And um so then he gives us six thousand dollars to make a record, and which was like my mind's blown at the time, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah. That's like the m MacArthur genius grant for you guys. Which he won, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Um but uh then through that we're like, okay, we're gonna make a record for John Zorn. We should have a guest singer. Who do who what singers do and we'd already worked with Kate Pearson from the B-52s, by the way. But we were like, who would fit this music that right now? And we were huge fans of uh Twin Peaks and of Julie Cruz, and we tracked down Julie Cruz, and uh I basically was working a day job, so I used my day job money to pay Julie Cruz to sing on our record. That's kind of how time of orchids worked. We're like just ambitious, you know, as hell.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, and with vision. Oh, only vision, yeah. And a style. You guys knew what you love, you had an idea, at least in broad strokes, and then you went for it.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, yeah, and I think I think also, you know, um in that scene, whether it's called I guess for us it was more of like an avant-progue scene, wasn't really hardcore. But at that time, let's say the early to mid-2000s, in New York, that's when you had like you know, the strokes and the yeah yeah, and TV on the radio. Um and you know, no offense to any of those bands, but but I I hated all of them and I still don't like their music. And one of the things, um, and I know some of those people, they were nice people. I just didn't like their music, and they might like me and they might hate my music. But this whole scene, this whole scene of like uh let's go, you know, party, do coke, uh stay up late, play rock and roll, you know, and that's how we go wrong. My thing was like, actually, you know what's Hipper to do is to stay home and transcribe a incredibly complex, impossible piece of music sober, and then go into rehearsal and practice it. And then when our bands are sharing the stage and you're doing your stupid three-chord rock and roll, we're actually blowing minds. That's it. I know, and I recognize that it's kind of an elitist point of view, but to me, it's like the idea of just getting fucked up and doing coke and you know and partying in in the East Village on a Thursday night. I just thought that was so passe.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

It's a little cliche, it's tired, and it's a very Zappa-esque approach, which is um, you know, much is made about Frank Zappa not doing any drugs except for a lot of caffeine. I think he was buried with his espresso machine and cigarettes, and cigarettes, yeah. Espresso cigarette, nicotine and caffeine were his drugs, and then that begs the question of his overall approach is I'm too busy to get high. What are you gonna do? Sit around and get high? I would rather write Peaches in Regalia than jerk off with you assholes, basically, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:21

And I and I will say as I show you my Zappa short. There you go. But uh that aspect, I mean, I could talk about Frank Zappa for for years, um as a recovering zappaholic, but that aspect that you just You never you never recover.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

You accept that you're a Zappaholic, but you just keep you just keep imbibing.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Well, you know, I haven't really I haven't listened to Zappa's music in so long, but his influence on me is so deep. I mean, what you just said about I'm too busy, you know, I'm smoking I'd rather smoke and and cigarettes and and drink coffee and compose than do he was a busy guy.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

As his wife used to say, Frank doesn't do love very well, and and as we can tell from Dweezel Zappa's career, there's clearly some emotional compensation going on for dad not being around too much. Well, also if if you read uh Earth to Moon, Moon's book or the Moon, the Moon biography. I did not, I I I read some some summaries of it, and Moon Moon shares that point of view, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe not the best dad.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Um or the best husband, or the best husband, Frank's, you know, getting late on tour, comes home and goes into a studio.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Yeah, and that's all in the book, but and granted, those aren't things that I'm gonna I wanna repeat in my life, but you know, nobody's perfect. Certainly, but of course not, but but Zappa's um work ethic and his his commitment to how he lived. He once said, one a person asked him, What do you dream about? And he said, I live in my dream. And I just that's his goal. He is a composer, he makes music, you know, he's a musician. Music is his life, and that just it still sticks with me, it still resonates.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

It's inspirational to have that kind of never-ending, continuous purpose, is uh is joyful in its own way. It's it's a happy workaholic kind of mentality where at idle time thoughts rush in, like what's what's the meaning of life? And if the meaning of life is to crank content, you're done. You got nothing to worry about, just keep keep producing.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Well, you know, you know, you can never I mean there are people who run out of ideas, really brilliant people who run out of ideas, you know. I can look at uh you know, a director like Francis Far Coppola, who's you know a total genius. He's not a writer, though. That's not his goal, right? He he needs to have a subject that he can work off of.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

David Bowie. David Bowie burned out too. I mean, I think at Let's Dance was the coffin nail in his uh in his good run, I think. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Let's talk about this because this is interesting. Um I think there was resurgence in Bowie's career. I think there was like I think Black Star to me was genius. You didn't like you didn't like Black Star? No, I I loved it, but I also liked Outside and I like and I liked Earthling too. Um but but but we're gonna have to arm wrestle after this. I guess I like some of that stuff also because Tony Levin played bass on it.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

And then Eno got back involved too.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Which is always great.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

But okay, yeah. You can never get enough Frank Zampa or Brian Eno.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

I mean, I play in it, I play in the Eno cover band as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Oh, of course you do. Did you did you like the documentary of which there are 55 quintillion versions?

SPEAKER_00 36:18

I loved it, and not only did I love it, I have it um when I watched it, I saw it at the Claridge in um oh shit, do I still have it? I saw it at the Claridge Theater in Montclair, and I actually recorded it. Oh fuck, I can't find it anywhere. I recorded it on my phone because I loved it so much. I only saw it once.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

I saw it in Manhattan, I think at uh I forgot where one of the alternative picture picture shows, and uh we did not see the same version, of course. That's the whole point, which is amazing. I love how we're two ADHD guys sitting here because we are we're going all over the place. But uh let's get back to Bowie because because we we were we were ready to to to get into a wrestling match over David Bowie, but I'm I'm intrigued to hear what what you think.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Oh well, I mean well I can relate it, I can relate it like this. Brief aside, I just put out a triple album last year called Bastards of Prague.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

And it was a it was uh what a great what a great title.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Thank you. The idea was to show you that, like, for example, David Bowie. When we when you think about prog rock, you think about Genesis, Crimson, yes, rush, I don't know. Um then it gets looser, but I would consider it. I think tool, tool is considered prog rock. Um yeah, but see that's like a looser, like it's the next wave. I would prog comes from progressive, right? So a band that sounds like sounds exactly like yes, you know, playing roundabout that you know, if it was if you went to a bar and you saw a band that was sounded exactly like yes, that would not be progressive, that would be regressive. Right. Um Bowie David Bowie was a bastard of Frog. He was progressive as fuck. And you know, he you know, maybe not the world's greatest guitar player, but on Diamond Dogs, he's playing lead guitar, even though that's that's not his that's not his instrument. Fuck it. He just did it. Doesn't really play any instruments either. No, he's also one, yeah. I so that kind of stuff when I think about Bowie, he remains endlessly fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

I'm I'm a big fan too. I just find it fascinating that the muse, the creative muse, in the classic Greek sense, of which I I believe there were a bunch of sisters, so there is an amuse, but there's a bunch of them for each of the creative arts, right? Poetry and performance, etc. Anyway, the muse in a generic sense shines for a while. So you could work really hard creatively to flirt with her and try to get her into the sack, and you're lucky if she actually puts out for you, and then you're creating together and you're channeling all of that energy. It could be for five minutes or it could be for 50 years. And to me, it seems all the creative people we know and love have a relationship with that muse, and the muse is very fickle, and it's almost like a spigot. She might favor you for an indefinite period, and you might wake up one morning like Robin Williams complained, and he wasn't funny anymore, or you could be like Eddie Van Halen and wake up and you no longer can play or write songs. And and I think that that to me is one of the most fascinating aspects of creativity in general, is that you don't have that much control over it. You could work really, really hard to your point, and spew garbage. Yeah, despite having an illustrious oove behind you, it doesn't matter. She divorced you, you are you are fucked, or in this analogy, unfucked. The muse no longer shines, and other folks are luckier with her, I think. It it clearly careers and talent oscillate, and it's independent of of public success. I think it comes internally. You could have hits or misses. But I've just found it personally that that if she's putting out, you better double down and go for it. Because you could wake up tomorrow and it's gone, or you could be lucky and for the rest of your life, you guys are cranking.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Well, to okay, so to that point about about Bowie, I mean talking about cranking and out. I mean, look how many look how much work he did between Space Oddity and Let's Dance.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

I mean, the amount of albums and touring all and it was a sensational awesome, it was sensational, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

It was transcendently good. You could think of yes, in that decade-long, you can think of 30 brilliant pieces of music off the top of your head.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

You know and and as I'm mentioning, she he was he was banging that muse throughout, she was putting out for David. It was and then let's dance. I remember hearing let's dance for the first time, and I knew it. Really? I knew it.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

He's done. Well, because it's so this is this is interesting because um you know it also it also depends on where we were at times and our age, you know, all sorts of factors. So I was six years old, so I thought this is I thought that's who David Bowie was, and I loved all those videos, China Girl. Right. But to your point now, I remember um it was 13, 12 going on 13. I got an issue of Guitar for the Practicing Musician, which was a magazine for guitarists. There was guitar, yeah, yeah. That was that was my one, and it had uh Scotty Hill and Snake Sable from Skid Row and Reb Beach from Winger on the cover.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Winger! Remember loved but in it they also had a I had a girlfriend who thought Winger was the sexiest dude ever. Oh yeah, he was. He was hot.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Like a lot of younger listeners and viewers might not know Winger, but you know, just like Winger's hot, and also Winger, Winger is really talented, just he just the videos were dumb. But uh yeah, he was like Bon Jovi before Bon Jovi was cool, right? Uh it got a crossover, but but but because Kip was often shirtless and was holding a bass without playing it, you know, um he got it got the shaft. But point point being, um, in this in this issue, there was a a transcription of suffrage at city, and I there was an article with with Mick Ronson, and I thought genius song.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Just I'm gonna interrupt you again, ADHD here. Yeah, the production on Suffrage of City, the layering of the tracks and how they weave together.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

And the saxophone, yeah. Wow. It's my I mean it's my favorite Bowie song, and I I remember seeing a transcription. I I I read a I read this article with Mick Ronson, he was hilarious. I saw this transcription, I'm like, oh, David Bowie. And I remember going to a party with my dad, and I talking to one of his friends, and we were talking about David Bowie, and I guess this guy was maybe in his thirties or forties, and I said to him, Do you know the song Suffrage of City? Like like a dorky twelve year old kid. And instead of like being being a jerk to me, he said, Well, yeah, he's like, you know, I'll make you know. Give I'll make a mixtape for your dad and I'll give it to you. And he made me a Bowie mix. And that's why I first heard Sofra J. And then I was like, oh, that's the day of a Bowie that people are talking about. It's you know, it's it's this, it's uh changes, it's hunky dory, it's you know, ashes to ashes, it's like uh then it fucking blew my mind.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

I had this uh exotic girlfriend, freshman in college, we're in the dorms, you know, just smoking weed and keeping adulthood as far away as possible. She was a bowie maniac. Okay. So if if I wanted to gain her attention and sustain her affections, it was Bowie 24-7. Oh, I yeah, and I knew Bowie before and I appreciated him and admired him throughout high school. But but it really, really blew my mind at the time, and it wasn't just her and the association with her, but it was just immersion into his ooze. Sure. And that's when that stance came out because the two of us were we we couldn't wait for the next Bowie record. Yeah, I think the one before that was what, Lodger or what what came before I think it was Scary Monsters, wasn't it? And Scary Monsters is a masterpiece, absolute with with Frip and Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know, and he had you know he had to fire Ronson to just keep expanding and and growing. And I just thought Let's Dance was as I'm mentioning, the the beginning of the end of the Bowie.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

I understand. I I understand. And you know, I have uh I have some dear friends, uh my friend Robert Conroy and my friend Michael T, who are Bowie maniacs. Yeah, I I I that's uh that's too uh um low a term. They're they're beyond that. Um it's just it's it's in them. It's um you know it uh in the way that for a while, Mookie, I I could relate anything in the world to Frank Zappa. And I think that they're like that toward towards Bowie in in a good way. Um and I I think that's a lot of people do find like a strict you know, period at the where let's dance was like before and after, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

But within that context, talking about creativity, how how would you express your creativity from outside it? And by that I mean let's get meta for a bit. Let's look at Jesse Krakow's ooze. You've done all this different type of music with all these different types of people. You had your flagship brand and band, really, that got you cranked, as you mentioned, right at the turn of the millennia, right? Right, and you've played with a bunch of people and you do revivals, you're gigging a lot, if not all the time, you're prolific, and you have your own idols. Zappa being iconic, you love you love Bowie, just like we're mentioning, we have our influences. Yeah. If if if you could do your own soundbite or write your own Wikipedia, how would you capture this kind of creative zip? Your dad is uh agency guy, so you know when I fist pump with him, it's like you know, we're we do the agency speak and we're talking about storytelling and marketing. He's a wonderful writer, your father.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Oh, yeah, he's my he's my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

So you have tons of creativity in the DNA. Uh, but where does it come from, you think? And what's what's the expression that's pure Jesse? What what's your brand?

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Well, I've actually never been asked that. Um part of me wants to wants to think that the simplest answer would be the best one. Um Andy Andy Kaufman always called himself a song and dance man. And it's like I like to think of that too, like because within that, it could be anything.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

You know, he was you can't say that he was not not a song and dance man, but he within that he was so much more. And I I like that. I because I don't I don't want to think of myself as you know, uh, you know, atonal, microtonal, avant-garde composer. You know, I just don't look at myself in those terms. I I love music, I just love music.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Um and uh full confession, I'm bipolar, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Not a lot of people, yeah. But no, not not a lot of people, not no, I don't not something that I share. So George Michael was gay.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

I don't mean to denigrate, you know, your mental health, I'm merely saying that a person with your energy and your creativity, this is what I'm getting at, which is you have such a signature style and it's so effervescent creatively that you know it's not not a shocker. I guess in toss in that ADHD.

unknown 49:09

Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Well, I think I think it's it's uh I don't know anything else. It's the only thing I've ever given given a shit about. So to me, to me, it's very normal. You know, I I so I think when someone is is uh talking about themselves you know as an experimental this or that, or an avant-garde this or that, or uh conceptual this or that, those things all might be true. I'm just not gonna talk, I wouldn't say that. Um I don't consider myself a composer. I I'm a writer. Just sometimes I write songs, sometimes I write words, sometimes I write po poems. Now, even that though, which is true, um I don't look at what I do as being creative. It's it's as normal to me as taking a shit. It's just I just do I just do it because of my yeah, so um I would I'm not I used to I used to be a dancer, I used to do modern dance in in college, and I and I do love dance. Um you and Christopher Walken.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Oh yeah, oh killer dancer. This is true, folks. We're not being facetious. Oh, yeah. Christopher Walken was uh badass, badass, a modern dancer, supreme. Yeah, you know him from your grandfather's gold watch in Pulp Fiction and his unique way of speaking and but Christopher Walken got his chops as a professional dancer, yeah. Trained, trained, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

There's a yeah, so I I i i if I could write my own um byline, I would say musician and writer because that would leave it, that would leave some area open to speculation. It's like did you see oh man, did you see the uh the Paul McCartney Rick Rubin series?

SPEAKER_01 51:10

I saw clips. Okay, it I'm guilty of seeing social media clips. Okay, you you I can't uh recommend it highly enough. Great. What I saw is great. Rick Rubin in general is great. He's got that beard now, he's like, you know, the yoga or the Gandalf. He's like the Gandalf of creativity now. And if you just read a transcript of what he's spewing, you know, through his book and on his reels, it comes across kind of cliche. Yeah, but it's a hundred percent true. I love what the guy says and does. I'm totally, totally in the same mindset. Okay, just create for creativity's sake, don't worry about where it's going or your audience, and tap into your own heart and let it loose, and don't worry about anything else. That's the that's the heart or the essence of his worldview, I think. And it and I love it.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

And it's I mean, it I mean it's also interesting that that's the guy who produced the Beastie Boys, who was kind of a massage. Yeah, but Metallica, and the list goes on and on. He was oh well, there's many uh yeah, so many bands, of course, petty catch, but he he had his own progression as a human to get to that point, you know. In the documentary, in the McCartney thing, he's sitting down, Paul's at a piano, and and Drick is just asking, like, I think he's just playing Lady Madonna, just effortlessly. And and Brooke's like, how do you write that? You know, how does that come from? And Paul's really, he's like, Oh, it's really easy. It's C, D minor, E minor, F, G, A, whenever you want to call this next one, and then you did and then and then you just fill it in. And when he said that, it was like, right, yeah. He doesn't have to be like, well, when I'm using the shop fifth and when I'm playing in C major, then I go to an A major for the dominant.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

It's just no, it's just yeah, most musicians don't I mean Ingway Malmstein does not read music, so you know, some of these neoclassical and classically inspired guys um don't the the zappas and the Steve Vies of the world are very rare. Do you know who read music?

SPEAKER_03 53:23

The Shags.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Really? Yep. Every every everything that they played. Because I have the charts, and now Britney has the charts.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

That's that's astonishing to me and surprising.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Oh, it's amazing that of all bands they would score. Yeah, they whenever they played a show, they always had their sheet music in front of them. Um you never know. Meanwhile, Robert Fripp doesn't read music, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Exactly, right? And I I had Lawrence Juber on. Uh I loved it. He's he's super fun. He was such a he was such a mensch, yeah. So cool. And he took to music scoring instantly. He he found it synonymous with learning how to play the guitar, which is reading and writing music. It came totally naturally to him.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Reading music does not come naturally to me at all. Um, I hate it. It's brainwiring.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

And I think to your point with um with Paul McCartney, if you look at it, Paul, Paul McCartney's just kind of a uh a regular guy, you know what I mean? And I'm not denigrating him, I'm just saying he's got astonishing talent, but he's a problem solver. It's like yesterday. Weren't the lyrics something like cream cheese? I have cream cheese, or I think I thought it was scrambled eggs. Yeah, scrambled eggs, I have some, you know. So he didn't he had the melody kind of percolating in his head, and yeah music and creativity is is so much tied to just problem solving. I am I even have a mood or an idea, but I I need to bring it to life and and I need to make it real in the real world. It's my lived experience with this instrument.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Well, that's why the that's why the word the word is producer. Because you make no because it's not idea person, you make something. You produce something that now we can have. Um that's why out of I mean, I obviously the Beatles are the Beatles, the greatest thing ever, but McCartney 2, that record is so fucking amazing on every level. Not just because it's got, you know, coming up and temporary secretary, or even Chris, you know, Christmas time, but that's just an album he did on his own. He got he's set up, he he had somebody set up some four-track gear in his house. He's kind of noodling around. And he's like, he's in the he's in the Beatles. He didn't have to do that. He could have been in Saint Tropez. He could have been, you know, being sand, you know, being fanned by, you know, Gordon.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

He could have been in his spinos getting blown in Bermuda, but instead he's getting high in the music, is Paul rolls up the keyboard and turns the record button on and and does does an album.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

That's that's I find Mookie. I can't underestimate how much that inspires me. It's like that's awesome. Yeah, I got all this time in the world. What am I doing? You know, I'm just gonna make an album. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Well, I feel like it, you know, and this goes full circle to you, Jesse, which is what I was getting at, like the Jesse Krakow brand. Um, I see you first and foremost as an epic music fan, to the point of passionately loving what you love, and you're very selective and you're quirky as you are, and you you just love this stuff. And there's the other side of you, which is the production, just like you mentioned. I love this so much that I'm gonna participate in it. Not not many people make that leap. I know a lot of people who love music and they're very particular. And these are the types of guys, you know, you go over there and they got 300 albums and they can tell you all about every band, and they're very selective with their favorite bands, and and it might be avant-gardish or quirky or prague or whatever, but you made the leap early on to not only loving this stuff, but actively participating in it, and you actively participate not only in the creation of it, but the collaboration and production and support of it, and the the network community that engenders it. So, to me, that's that's what you're about, which is you're the ultimate music fan who dove in swimming, right? And you love making it, you love creating it.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

It's very I look I love all that. Thank you, and that's that's really that's really lovely to to hear you say that, and thank you. Um yeah, I mean uh my best friend Corey Danziger and I w what we talk about uh about working and and and and making stuff, and we realized like we have to try to we have to try to not make stuff because it's just we like to do it, like that's what we do. You know, if if I had all the time in the world, I would write music, practice my instruments, learn music, do things like this, and and and never leave, you know. But um people like to go on hikes or they like birds. I I could give a fuck. Like this is my this is my hobby.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

I and I I love that about you and it shows. Okay, and it's organic. So this idea that you screw convention and and even classic traditional industry gateways to just be indie and do your own thing. I don't think to your point you made earlier, it's not a conscious intent. It's like I'm just doing stuff, I'm the ultimate music fan, I'm making music, and I'm supporting the community and its production, and I just want to do that, right? And and and you make it happen, and that that is that is cool. That is that is really that is really earnest and genuine, which is which is fun.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

I then I try to to do that. Um, and then to get back to the first thing we talked about, you gotta pay it forward to the next generation, to the next students, and the next, I mean that's why I had a radio show on on FMU. It was called Mine, it was called Minor Music. Of course you did. Yeah. But that was like I literally, I you know, I'm on the FMU. This was yeah, this was right before the Shags thing. Because I'm on the FMU newsletter, and it uh in the email it said, oh, you know, now casting, you know, pitch us your new ideas for new programs. And in that, within a second, I was like, I want to do a a show for young kids, like a live music show, because I realize young students they don't get a lot of a chance, they don't get a big chance to play real sh nighttime shows. It's Sunday Sunday afternoon at a s at a sports bar or something, you know, in front of in front of their parents. But what about playing for a new audience? And I don't know anything about the radio, but I pitched that to the program director. And he's like, if you're serious about it, let's talk about it. And then it happened. And that was such an amazing thing for me. Not only to to work for a station that I think is I mean, if I could have only one radio station on the planet, I'd be happy if it was FMU, I'd be fine. Um But to realize that if I was a kid and I'm 15 years old, this would have been my shit. Like I would have loved to have this. So the fact that like I was doing something that I knew kids were like, all right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

So what kind of advice or or guidance would you provide young musicians? So do it, do that hot tub time machine, yeah. Yeah, go back, you know, your your 10, 11. Deformative years are 10, 11, 12, as it's been documented over and over again. All the greats around age 12, like that's when Eddie Van Halen first started strumming away on his guitar, right? So, what would you tell a teen or a preteen into music nowadays with AI and streaming and on demand and all the traditional venues have been transformed and turned upside down? Now, the good news is anyone can publish. You you you you anyone can record and produce and publish. You could be your literally your one-man band. You don't need anybody, and you're distributing your content out there, potentially to millions of people. There are no gateways except your own fortitude, willingness to figure out a few apps and gun it. The challenge with that is that opportunity is open to everybody, and record numbers of people are taking it, so it's unbelievably crowded. Getting and sustaining and growing attention is the tough part now. So, how how would you frame it for the young person getting into this? And what's your perspective on this crazy situation we've gotten ourselves into, which is both so awesome? Like on my phone, I can access just every piece of music I could conceivably want. Yeah, whereas before I'd have to rifle through record bins and look for stuff and whatever. And I could publish, I publish these podcasts from this elaborate studio, as you can see. And uh I do publishing, books, vlogs, novels, screenplays. I'm cranking, but so is everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, there's a lot to what you just said in terms of how one can approach it. Um I guess at its most granular level, I would say, and this is something I wish someone would have said to me, um take twice as long to do half as much. Meaning if you're gonna write a song, make sure that before you go to the the bridge, make sure that the verse is perfect before you add another section. You know, make sure that every line that you write is exciting. You're just not it's no like you're not just marking it. You know, so if it takes you a week to come up with a structure of a song, it's gonna behoove you. Um I think stuff like that creates a really cool kind of discipline. And that's if if you were to be a composer, it would be stuff like that, the minutiae of writing music. Um I would say also at that age, because I have a I have a son who is uh I have a 12-year-old who's turning 13, and I have a nine-year-old who's turning 10. So what your words are definitely register about that time in that their life. Um, but uh a 12-year-old kid can be very apathetic. I don't know, whatever you want. You know, don't even talk to me about this stuff. Um there's nothing cool about being apathetic just in life. Maybe like maybe Debbie Harry got away with it, but to be enthusiastic, you know, it was performative. Well, especially in the 90s, man, fucking apathy was like that was the if you get if you the person who didn't give a shit the most was the coolest.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

They were usually the ones who cared the most about coming across as not giving a shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Exactly. Right. So I would say I would tell a young person, don't do that, be enthusiastic about this. Is your music, you gotta fucking love it more than anybody else. You can't just be like, I wrote the song, it's okay. No, I don't want to hear your fucking you. If you think it's okay, you should be stoked about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

You know how are you gonna convince anyone else if you haven't convinced yourself yet? It's a great question. And the answer is you can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

You can't, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:55

To your to your point, like be thrilled, like you can't wait. To release it to the world, celebrate it. This idea of the shy artist, and I'm not ready yet, and fake it till you make it being invalid because it's gotta be perfect. I gotta polish the turd until I can let it out into the world, can be as asphyxiating.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

You polish the turd when you're writing it. You know, you you polish the turd, you polish the turd at night while you're thinking of before you go to bed when you're thinking about it. That's how you're when I when time in time of orchids, I would I was uh I was working downtown at my dad's my dad's old agency, uh, and I was living in Washington Heights. Long trip. And on those, and I'd be crowded train, and I would just I would write music in my head, I would think about transitions in my head.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

You and you and John von Neumann, he used to ride the Chicago train, the elevated up and down north side to south side. He was at the University of Chicago where he helped develop the atomic bomb, and he would just ride the train because that was his favorite place to think. Holding and there is that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

I just wanted to share that with you. Well, but but but but but here's the thing though that that is to me, that's practicing, right? You know, I'm practicing, and that is taking twice as long to do half as much. You're just you know, you don't even have the instrument with you. Steve Vai famously transcribed uh Frank Zappa's guitar solo from Inca Rhodes on a bus ride by ear. You know, a freakishly talented person, but that's how he was like able to look at it. Like it's not about hands, it's about it's about something else. And viewing music through that prism, I would I would encourage a young kid to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:53

Um I know that also a lot of young kids, um I think they know everything, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

The best thing that I've realized, and and talking to my dad, who's my hero, who would tell you right now, he's like there are things in life that he knows nothing about. My dad's 84, the smartest guy. I know, I I know he'd be like, I don't fucking know. You tell me because then that's how you learn something new. You talk to somebody who actually is an expert or has an opinion, you know, and so there's a give and take to that. And I would encourage young students to be to say, um you know, if someone is telling you to check something out, check it out. Uh they're not doing it just to blow smoke up their own ass. It's like, no, it's I wish somebody would have told me to, you know, God, if I would have had someone tell me to uh, you know, when I was 12 years old to listen to uh Return to Forever or to check out Bitches Brew or you know, this is who Ornette Coleman is, man, that would have been really awesome. You know, those kinds of I think that stuff can really affect you, especially like if you're 10 years old in that impressionable time, and then you hear music that wallops you over the head, that's gonna change your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

So, in summary, I'm hearing work hard when you're working. So, you know, don't just barf stuff out, get it right, spend time with it, focus, do it. That's number one. Number two is do it enthusiastically, don't second guess yourself and yeah, be your own cheerleader. And I'm also hearing like listen to mentors, listen to people who've been around the block, don't just be dismissive and a know it all, and be willing to take in suggestions and even advice because it could save you a lot of time and effort because people have been there and have done that. Yeah, I would say that's that works, that clocks. All right, great, great. The the the one area where I might, it's not pushing back, but what I have encountered with myself, for example, is this perfectionist mentality, and I've seen it utterly asphyxiate talent, especially early on, where you feel you can't release anything to the world until it's perfect, well, that's and you're so self-critical that you undercut your ability not only to let it out, but even to complete things. You you can't build an ove when you're second-guessing yourself every time going back to fundamentals. And and then, and then lastly, an adjunct to this is blowing smoke up people's ass by being an experimentalist. And by this, I mean I've seen a lot of talented musicians and talented writers, they don't or are unwilling to learn the basics, or they might have even mastered the basics. But instead of just writing a good story or communicating directly with someone or writing a song that people can tap their foot to, they're way left field, which is you know, I am a genius and I'm gonna re-engineer reality around my talent. And if it doesn't do that, then I'm a failure. And they're they're done. They either spew stuff no one listens to, and they destroy their own learning curve because they make it inaccessible to everyone, pretty much through intention. Like, I don't want anyone to listen to my stuff because it exposes my vulnerabilities. Right. So I'm gonna create this turd that's unlistenable or inaccessible so no one can criticize me.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

So that's really interesting. So my pushback against your pushback is is actually it isn't pushback. Um I think people that say this, you know, I I I can't release it yet because it's not ready, meaning like you know, I I this, I don't, you know, I'm on my eighth mix of this song, or this song needs to be remastered, that kind of shit. Yeah, that fuck that. You just get it out there. I'm talking more about like when you're actually writing the song. You can write the song every day. If you're writing a song, you could write the song in your mind while you're taking a shit, while you're in the shower. Like that stuff will all help you when when you actually sit down and put pen to paper. That's the kind of stuff where take twice as long to do half as much because by that time you spent all day thinking about uh four lyrics. You know, uh yeah, no, the stuff about sweating over a mix and being a perfectionist, I'm the opposite. To wit, this year um I'm releasing uh pretty much two mini EPs a week.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

I think I have to be. See, that's what I mean. You're you're unbelievably prolific. You just crank, which is which is so awesome and it's inspirational.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

But but you know, and then to what you were saying about um and I because I totally agree to this, yeah, saying my shit is I'm gonna make stuff that's intentionally out, and if you don't like it, well that's just because you're a you're a poser or whatever. I think I think that's a phase that we all need to go through to an extent.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

That's a great observation. It's it's it's it's it's an inevitable phase. A lot of people struggle with you go through it through for a week or for ten years, but or forever. It's kind of like the larvae shedding its skin and becoming a butterfly, right? It's like yeah, it's one of you know, you you fuck yourself up with this attitude that it's gotta be amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

Yeah. Right. And that gets back to the idea of failure, you know. You know, polishing, you know, god, I mean, I've I've spent so god, I mean, I I can't, I'm not proud of every I'm not I'm proud of everything I put out, but there's records I've made that I know that are better than others, and it's not because I didn't work hard. It's to your point, maybe the muse would just wasn't there. But I worked, I worked fucking hard to try to make it as best as possible. Just shit happens, you know, and that that is a minor failure, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:14

I think we're agreeing essentially, it's just a matter of the nuance. And when you put things into practice, you have something you need to express and you go for it one way or another, in your own way. Yeah, that's all we can do. One of my my personal favorite stories is about 1986, and and I'm living in the valley, North Hollywood, California, pretty much. My hometown. Interesting. Okay, so there's a knock on my door. I'm like subletting in in this little area there, and uh these dudes are there and they're like, hey, we heard you playing guitar, and we're gonna start a band. It's gonna be a combination of Bon Jovi and Parliament, and uh we're gonna we're gonna dress in tuxedos and you can play lead guitar because we heard you jamming on Hendrix, like you heard it. Okay, and they're like, We got a white boy who's kind of squatting with us, and he's our manager, so we want you to check him out because we don't know if he's legit. Okay. About a week goes by, there's another knock on my door while I'm playing again. And I open up the door, and it's this guy, young kid, he's got blonde wispy hair. He's no older than 16. He's wearing a tacky leisure suit and a t-shirt and ripped jeans. And he goes, I'm Beck, and I'm gonna be famous. That's how he introduced himself. I go, Wow, all right, come on in. I was recording on a Tascam 4 track, and I had this tacky derivative Led Zeppelin song, there's this like blues rock mix laid out on the three tracks. I had an open track for the vocals, right? Right. I give him the lyrics and I give him the mic, and he and and I scattered it for him, and he didn't listen to a word I said, and he starts doing this shit on my fucking Led Zeppelin track. Okay, I thought he sucked, he hated working with me. We were friends over the summer, though. We kept in touch and we argued about music, and his point of view was if you sell a lot of records, then that's proof you're a genius. I go, come on, Beck. You know, there's a ton of talent that's hidden, and it has a lot to do with circumstance. He was not, but um interesting, interesting, but he seemed to do pretty well for himself. Interesting. Wow, and his attitude at the time was just hang out and go for it. He he'd go to the MTV music awards and try to sneak in, and he would just join whatever band. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and he just was fluid. He just like just he used to walk down the street.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:08

I mean, it it sounds he sounds you know, I I can't say how much fun it would have been to be in your shoes at that time, but I do love that attitude. Fuck it. And and and and you know, Beck Beck is also a guy musically, who would have thought that you know the guy that was doing like one foot in the grave and you know, loser would then become like this huge pop star and then take it into I didn't even I didn't even put you into a because I heard loser because it was everywhere kind of thing, and you fast forward to like like 10 years later at least.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:41

And and I'm with a friend, and she's like, Let's watch Letterman, and she puts Letterman on, ladies and gentlemen, the new talent, Beck. And I'm like, Beck. And I see him come out, blonde hair, leisure suit, t-shirt, red jeans, and he's going, uh and that's one of the few times in my adult life where my jaw literally dropped.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:05

Yeah, yeah, he did.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:08

Wow. The reason I bring up all of this is because we're talking about opportunity, circumstance, creativity, and young people getting started. Right. And if Beck had any characteristic, it exemplifies everything that you've just said, which is you know, work on your stuff, so perfect it, which she seemed to do at least once he was going. The other one is believe in yourself. Hi, I'm Beck and I'm gonna be famous. That's literally how he introduced himself. I go, Beck what? Is it just Beck or Beck? He goes, Beck and I'm gonna be famous. He almost wanted you to repeat that, right? And the third is like mentors and support. He, you know, if you look at his biography, he schmoozed his way into every circumstance that he got. He was like, Whatever it takes, the metric of success is how many records you sell. So WIT, whatever it takes for me to get in there and do this, I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:09

I mean, you can't argue with with his success, so there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:14

Yeah, now am I a fan? No, I still whenever I hear back, it's that same kid recording on my four track. I mean, this sucks. I I I think he's faking it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:24

Where were you in North Hollywood, if you don't mind me asking?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:27

Do you remember right where the two expressways come together, right at the corner, like Canyon Boulevard? I I don't remember okay right by there.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:35

Yeah, okay. Trying to see if we I'm trying to see how close because I was living there. I forgot. Okay. Hmm. Well, because I was living there in 1986. But really, yeah. Oh my god, we just missed each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:48

Just missed each other. Yeah, imagine instead of me, you would have met back, and then you know, instead of dumping me as the guitar player before we even started, he would have kept you as a bass player.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:59

It would have been fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

So, what's next for Jesse? I know we need to be sensitive for time. You got to go back and create more music, and I need to continue bloviating here and actually get to a paying work project. But uh what what's next for for Jesse? And I'd love to bring you back, you know, in a few months to see how things are going. And I love to like tap into Jesse as my music whisperer.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:28

So much more I want to talk to you about. No, likewise, man, fun to talk. We'd even talk about my dad. Yeah. Um, but how we love how we do. Um, so yeah, so every uh actually, even today, if we're tipping this on a Tuesday, I just released an EP called uh it's actually it's a 12-second EP. It's called 1-800 Cool Kid. So from from today to the end of the year, I'm releasing about two EPs a week. Um how do you maintain that pace? That's amazing. I already they're already recorded. I I recorded them all pretty much last year and I just scheduled it all.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

That's what I do. I I do that too. Like by writing on Substack, I keep cranking it, yeah, cranking it out. Content repurposing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:11

Sure. Um, I'm going uh um I have, but then I have two full albums, two different albums. One is more song-oriented, one is more kooky, that I hope to hope to get done this summer. They're like they're brother, they're brother albums, sister albums. Um and but I'm doing I'm doing some touring. Uh, you know, I play with a lot of bands. I play with I play I'm deep in the tribute world now.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:38

So uh it's some fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:40

Yes, I play with a Dolly Parton woman named Kelly O'Brien. Uh I play with uh um Sean Altman and Jack Skuller, um Sean Altman from Rockapella, uh uh in the Everly set, and uh they have a Simon Garfungel band too, so always working. Um this Sunday I'm playing the cutting room with the Carnaby Street Girls, which is a tribute to like the British invasion.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:08

So, and um just teaching like a teaching like a motherfucker. That is so awesome. Again, it's like you know, you're the polymath and you're a teacher, performer, collaborator, and and and creative artist. Well, you know, tomorrow how cool is Jesse Krakow. I just want to blow blow smoke up your ass, but mean it. You're you're really you're really out there doing it. I think that's so great.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:33

Well, thank you, man. Tomorrow, tomorrow is a big day. I'm speaking at my kids' career, uh, I'm doing career day at my son's seventh grade class. Um, so I need to talk about my life as a musician and how and why. And I I realized that you can explain why I'm a musician. It's like no music is my life. There's that is so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:56

So inspirational. You could almost share this podcast link for them to listen afterwards, except we talk about homoeroticism and say fuck a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:05

But we're it's just well just uh just say uh, you know, put cover your ears during that part.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:15

Thanks so much, Jesse, for making time. Like, comment, share the No Hair All Heart podcast. Of course, dude. Yeah, yeah, this is wonderful. And like I said, I mean it. Let's come back and and do another one of these things to check in. A pleasure, man. So much more I want to talk to you about. I want to learn more about you, too. All right, cool. Let's chit chat. We'll follow up soon. Thanks so much, folks, and uh get this wherever your podcasts are streaming, and I'll put the video up on YouTube too, so we can see these two ADHD guys in addition. Thanks for.