Clayton Parker’s Journey from VW Surfer Van to World-Renowned Muralist

The 104th episode of No Hair All Heart features Mookie Spitz literally sitting down next to legendary muralist and visual artist Clayton Parker for a sprawling, funny, unexpectedly emotional conversation about art, survival, craftsmanship, and the long strange road between obscurity and mastery.

Clayton isn’t some gallery darling who emerged fully formed from an MFA program wearing a black turtleneck and talking about “negative space.” He’s the real thing: a working artist who clawed his way through decades of murals, commercial art, restaurant commissions, billboards, album covers, menu designs, historical projects, and anything else that required paint, nerve, and the willingness to show up. Along the way he created the massive 565-foot Vista historical mural — officially recognized as the longest historical mural in the world — and built a career almost entirely through referrals, reputation, and raw hustle.

The conversation moves from Clayton’s early years living out of a Volkswagen van while attending college, to the heartbreaking story of having that van, and nearly everything he owned stolen, to the improbable kindness of a banker who took a chance on a broke hippie art student with no collateral and no safety net. Clayton talks about the years of scraping by, painting at Oceanside Harbor to attract customers, turning boat owners into clients, and eventually becoming the go-to muralist for restaurants, tequila brands, casinos, and historical projects across America and Japan.

Mookie and Clayton also dive deep into the psychology of creativity itself: why most talented artists never make it, how commercial work differs from fine art, why reliability matters more than tortured genius, and how so many creatives sabotage themselves by refusing to evolve. Clayton explains his philosophy of “illustrative realism with enchantment”: blending photorealistic technique with whimsical color, hidden details, and deeply personalized storytelling that turns murals into lived experiences instead of decoration.

The episode is packed with stories: painting over pipes and industrial obstructions to create illusionistic murals, old ladies recognizing themselves decades later in a high school marching band scene, tequila companies delivering cases of liquor to his house, Van Halen playing school dances before they were famous, upside-down left-handed guitar playing that confuses musicians, and why some of the greatest artists in the world still don’t care about social media or personal branding.

More than anything, this becomes a conversation about persistence. About surviving long enough for your craft to matter. About why talent alone is never enough. And about how art is ultimately a people business: one built on trust, relationships, vulnerability, and the willingness to keep creating even when nobody’s watching yet.

Clayton Parker’s Advice for Artists

• Be reliable. Showing up on time and delivering what you promised matters more than most artists realize. Clients remember professionalism.
• Don’t pigeonhole yourself. If people think you only do one thing, you limit your opportunities. Stretch creatively and take on unfamiliar themes.
• Find the need and fill it. Great art still has to connect to a real-world need, audience, or emotional experience.
• Don’t wait for permission. Clayton built his early business by literally painting in public where people could see him working.
• Word of mouth is gold. Reputation and referrals built most of his career, not advertising.
• Collaborate with clients instead of treating them like obstacles. The work gets better when people feel personally connected to it.
• Keep evolving creatively. Artists stagnate when they repeat themselves endlessly. Growth matters.
• Learn everything you can. Skills that seem unrelated at first often become valuable later.
• Don’t romanticize suffering. There’s no shame in commercial work if it lets you keep creating and feeding your family.
• You have to like people. Art is not just self-expression. It’s communication. Connection matters.
• Persevere through setbacks. Clayton rebuilt his life from almost nothing after losing nearly everything he owned.
• Put yourself where opportunities can find you. Don’t hide in a basement waiting to be discovered.

If you’re an artist, musician, writer, filmmaker, designer, or anyone trying to build something meaningful in a world that constantly pushes practicality over passion, this one will hit home. And if nothing else, you’ll hear the story of Santa taking a dump down a chimney. Enjoy!

The Guest

Clayton Parker is a veteran muralist, illustrator, and designer whose work has appeared in restaurants, casinos, commercial campaigns, and public spaces across the United States and Japan. Best known for the 565-foot Vista Historical Mural — officially recognized by Guinness World Records as the longest historical mural in the world — Clayton built his career through grit, craftsmanship, and decades of word-of-mouth referrals. Known for blending photorealistic detail with whimsy and immersive storytelling, Clayton has created everything from historical murals and tequila ads to album covers and large-scale public art. A lifelong surfer, musician, teacher, and unapologetically analog artist, he brings humor, humanity, and hard-earned perspective to both his work and his stories.

Reach out here to contact him... He's not online. Really, really. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hello and welcome to the No Hair Podcast. I'm your host, Bookie Smith, the one with no hair. And the one with all the heart today is Mr. Clayton Parker. Welcome aboard, Clayton. I can't wait to talk about your illustrious career in art. You are a mural creator of renown. You've got an amazing life that we could also talk about and share with the audience. And I want to let our listeners know that this podcast will be ideally suited to the visual experience. Clayton is a visual artist. We'll be sharing a lot of his work. A lot of it is not digitized. So I will be sharing images of his work. Clayton will be sharing it in real time on camera. As you can see, we're in his living room kitchen. This is very informal. And if you're listening on audio, I think you'll still enjoy it. He's got a lot to say and a lot of great stuff to share. But if you can, and if you're not yet, go over to YouTube where you'll find the video of us chatting. I'll put the link in the description as well. And without further ado, Clayton, welcome and thank you. Thank you for making time. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

This is a first for me. All right. A podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

All right, the first for Clayton. So we're popping Clayton's cherry in the podcast world. And uh I've seen his stuff, I'm familiar with it, and just your life and how these works of art have come to be are eminently worth talking about and documenting. So I'm thrilled to have you on the pod. Let's let's start with arguably what you're most famous for, which is the Vista mural. It got a ton of press. It goes back to 2005. Yes. If I believe you are you're on the news, you made the Guinness Book of World Records. Tell us a little bit about that, Clayton.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

I was approached by the city with this the concept of doing this mural. Other muralists had turned it down. They looked at the surfaces of all these old buildings and said, I can't paint on that. Pipes and meter boxes and all manner of obstructions. And I uh I was just game enough to say, I'll do it. And we did a lot, a year of research with cooperation with the Historical Society, VISTA chapter, and interviewing. We set up interviews with the oldest living residents of Vista. And they brought out old faded material. I worked from old photos and newspaper articles, and anyway, composed this timeline of Vista from starting with the Luciano Indians through time to the present. And it it's composed of real people, real businesses, uh things to do with the history of Vista. And sure enough, it got certified. It's 565 feet long and as tall as the buildings. And it got certified as the longest historical mural in the world. And uh I'm very proud of it. Like I say, when you do these sort of themes, I've done murals all over America and in Japan. And most of it in Las Vegas casinos, it's it's what we call eye candy. It's pretty, it's you know, gives people pause in a restaurant or wherever. But a historical mural has real content. It's so meaningful to all the people portrayed. And I'm a history buff, so when I combine history with art, it's wonderful. I just love it. And I'll tell you, Wookiee, everywhere I've worked, all over this country, whether it's a little hamlet or a big city, everyone's proud of their history. And when they find out what you're there to do, the job just goes like this because they all want in. Everybody's coming out of the woodwork. This was my great-grandfather's livery stable, you know, this sort of thing. And I love it. And so I it's one of the most meaningful projects of my whole career doing historical murals.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Yeah, it's exciting. And uh, I've been flashing images on camera with overlays, which I'll do in post-production. But we would love to see you escort us a little bit through the different elements of it. I can hold these up. These are, once again, prints and photos in Clayton's private collection. He hasn't digitized them. So um, I'll just be your sandwich guy and uh and take everyone through as you narrate the different aspects of the mural's creation and the different aspects of it.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

And this is it begins with this building, and this one concerned the Luciano Indians, Indian rock with petroglyphs on it that are thousands of years old.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

Look at the camera. I'm the opposite of Francis Ford Coppola in Apocalypse Now. They're there.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah, it really entailed. I don't see my hand anyway. It really entailed uh a lot of research, and the Indians were kind enough to take me up to areas that are cordoned off from the public so I could see the real thing before I painted it. And that's where it began. And if you look at this close-up of that same wall, you'll see what I had to deal with. There's a pipe running right through that palm tree. There's meter boxes, bundles of wire. I mean, all manner of things that normally a muralist would not attempt to paint on. I like I camouflage it all, then I get a kick out of it, make it disappear. When you stand back far enough, you don't see the pipe in the palm tree. You just see a big palm. You get up closer and you realize. And anyway, so this is where it began. And here's another shot that's an example of working over industrial, you know, appendages, pipes, and whatnot.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

So these are the physical impediments to actually doing the mural, is what you're illustrating. So it's not just a blank wall, and you get up on a ladder and then you start doing your thing. You had all of this, all of this stuff in your way.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yes. And that's that's why so many other muralists they had first approached declined. They said, I can't paint on all this. And that I do, I've done other projects in other places where I've had to camouflage whatever was there.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

And I get a kick out. That's part of the illusion, the illusion when you do these scenes. It's just a flat surface, but you bring it a life. And I like to do detail so that someone doesn't just take a glance and they've seen it. You glance, okay, took it in, done. I like to make it so people go up close and a second and third time, you know, let's finding more and more detail.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

So it's not like a billboard when you're driving down the freeway and uh you just take a passing glance. Obviously, it's right, it's etched into the neighborhood. It is, and especially when it's a historical, cultural kind of phenomenon like this Vista one. And you want to bring out the details and have it be a lived experience for all the residents in the neighborhood and anyone visiting.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

This is the high school Vista band back in the uh 40s, and some of these ladies that are depicted in there came down to see me when they heard about this, and now they're old white-haired gals, and they're going, boy, weren't my boobs perky back then. It's very cute.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

That's right. It's that the height, the the the height of of their virility and interest. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Like I say, it means so much to so many people. And that this is Joe Rosenthal, who was a friend of, he didn't live in Vista, but he frequented there. He was a close friend with one of our resident doctors. And that's Joe with his cigarette holder and his camera, his Kodak. And he's the man who won the Pulitzer Prize for taking that famous picture of the Marines raising the flag on Mount Zorobuchi Iwo Jima.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

Iwo Jima. So this guy is the Iwo Jima photographer.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Yeah, that famous shot about five of them.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

Okay, and then how did he roll in here? What's the connection?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Well, he was included when I did my research. The people that was close friends of his showed me a picture of him and said he should be in there because he's a part of our history of Vista. And that's Mr. Crozier, Crozier's flowers, which everybody's familiar with. They're everywhere. But so I included Joe as just a what you might call a friend of Vista.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Terrific. All right. So you got a little bit of cultural history, you've got wrapping into U.S. history. Yes. You've got all the interwoven threads.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

The local marketplace, like I say, detail. I love it. The scale, the produce, the background. I'd like to make it so you'll stare at this thing for a while and pick out more.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

564 feet. 500. I took a foot off. You're gonna have to slap me after this. 565 feet of mural.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Three, yeah, 565 and as tall as the buildings.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

Two stories and two two stories up and 565 feet. Yes, sir. Wow, that's a lot of square footage. There's a bit of a little bit more than the Sistine Chapel, is right there.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

It is that's a longer shot there of some of the building. It's hard to include it all because it's so long. It goes two city blocks. And our our county supervisor at the time donated $10,000 to light it. So they have these wonderful gooseneck lamps that shine down on the mural at night all down the span. Yeah, and and Daryl Issa, our congressman, presented me with this big, nice plaque calling me an outstanding citizen. And I said, uh, this means I don't get a ticket no matter what.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

That's right. You're you're you're immune from their consultation, right? It was a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

It was a lot of my friends. I still am in touch with friends going back to little boys in kindergarten. We're still like Tim. And uh they all came down.

SPEAKER_04 10:35

Yeah, shout out to Tim Waugh, yeah. Who uh you grew up together. Is that right? So Tim is the one who connected me with you and said, Clayton needs a podcast. So that's why we're here. Thanks, Tim. We appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

A little note about Tim he's an excellent guitar player. He can play classic, flamingo, jazz, you name it. Rock and roll is simple for him. And so when I was learning self-taught guitar, I'm left-handed and I would turn the guitar up, a right-handed guitar upside down. It's still strung for a right-hander, but I would flip it over so everything's upside down. And I would bug Tim when they he and some of the guys be playing, have you do an E again? An E chord. And at first it was cute, and then it got annoying. I'm like the puppy bothering the big dogs.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

Yeah, they they don't know what's going on in the chord shapes backwards because you you didn't re-string Jimi Hendrix re-strung it. He re-strung it. So but you didn't, you just you just flipped it over. So the high the high string is at the top and the low string is at the bottom. Just the other chords are just weird shapes. So if you're a player like Tim, you look at that, and that's worse than an alternate tuning, that's completely messed up.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Well, I made a CD a few years ago, and Tim came and guessed it and did two songs on it right off the top with no rehearsal. He did a beautiful version of Here Comes the Sun, the Beatles. And uh, so I he got a kick out of me that I've kept it up, I've kept practicing. In so much traveling Mookie, I'm in hotels and motels all over the place. And when you're not working, you're there you are. And I long ago realized that going to the bar gets old. Same thing everywhere. I don't care if you're in Maryland or in California. And and so I practice. I'd bring songbooks with me, I'd bring one of my guitars and I'd practice and practice, and that's how I developed. And I'd have chord books and I'd look at the diagram and then figure out how to do it.

SPEAKER_04 12:33

Yeah, we had it backwards. You never thought about just doing the Hendrix restringing? You never bothered.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Tim talked me into doing that at one point. This was 20 years ago, and I tried. And it was like going back to square one, and I said, The hell with this. I'm not selling tickets, it's just for my pleasure. And I love to play and I love to sing along. I've got a library of songbooks I've accumulated. And it's it's always it's a great pleasure, and it's open-ended, like all the arts. You never reach a point where you go, Well, now I know all that.

SPEAKER_04 13:06

Oh, yeah, and you've claimed it your own way from the beginning. So, no, it's very few people do what you do.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

I got it.

SPEAKER_04 13:13

And then it's an extent extension of your left brain nature, if we can, right? Right, or your right brain nature. It's very creative. So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

I got on stage with a good friend of ours who performed regularly at one of our local uh restaurant bars, the harbor in Oceanside, and we did Tequila Sunrise, beautiful Eagles song. And I strapped on one of his hard-body electric guitars upside down. And he he knew I had played guitar, that's why he invited me up. He didn't know that this. And at first, we're looking, he's looking at me, and then he got a face on him, and he turned his back on me, and everybody laughed. They could tell it was bothering him.

SPEAKER_04 13:53

Yeah, I mean, if you're used to doing something that's highly disruptive when somebody's playing a basic open chord and it looks completely different from what they're used to. And I'm assuming your strumming is different too, because exactly. It's the opposite of the uh upstroke and downstroke, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

So used as a bet.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Musician friends show him Clayton and I'd play something 20 bucks. You know, because they they wouldn't they don't believe you can do that. You know, nobody left-handed guitarists have their guitar strung the proper way, even though they're left-handed. Paul McCartney, you name it, many of them. Uh, but I do it, like I said, I learned by picking up like Tim's guitar and turning it upside down and trying to figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Absolutely, that's fun. Fun, fun, fun stuff. And it's your quirky with regard to the mural stuff, too. I mean, you do your own thing. How would you describe your style? Like you've you've had a lot of artists who did murals too. Well, sure. Such as uh, you know, Frida Kahlo did murals, uh, there are a bunch of folks. Picasso, famous, famous murals, Guernica, in a sense, is uh is a mural. I used to teach those things to my students.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

I've taught for 17 years, high school and university level. Okay, in art history, and I would go show them all the variety Maxfield Parish, dreamy enchanting themes, Charles Russell, the cowboy artist, self-taught up in Montana, and Picasso and others. And it I just love to expose my students to a big variety of styles and then let them choose what they prefer. What you and I would buy for put in our home is our choice. But I want them to understand the wonderful variety, isn't that great? Not everybody tries to be one style, one kind of thing. And that's the same with music, with clothing, with everything. It would be a very boring world if we all looked and dressed and acted and listened to the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

So, how would you describe your style? If you're saying everyone's unique, how would you characterize verbally your style of art?

SPEAKER_00 16:00

I like realism, illustrative realism with a touch of enchantment, some color. I I don't paint a palm tree with brown trunk and green leaves. It'll have blue violets in it and orange and yellows in it, and various lovely things that make it more than just a normal tree. And I can show samples of that whenever we get to it. But that's what I like. To get into some enchanting coloring, but the imagery is real.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

So you like it photorealistic in the sense that it's accurate, it honors the raw physics of how we see the world and optics, but you give it a little zing.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Exactly. And that's what separates, I think, my work from so many out there. And believe me, there's talent all over this country. I've met talent everywhere for many reasons. We don't need to go into people can't pursue it. They have babies and have to have a job, they don't know have any business sense, they don't know how to market their self. Many reasons, but it's not for lack of talent. I've met so many wonderful artists.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

I agree. That's in every human category: writers, poets, singers.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

I've heard bands, I'm sure you have too, Mookie, bands that are playing smoky bars that are just as good or better than some of the things you hear.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

Oh, absolutely. The success of a band or an individual is no real reflection of the raw talent, but it's just circumstantial and it also takes luck and it also takes effort on the part of the artist to actually get yourself out there. That's been a recurring theme on my other podcasts, too, with writers who struggle to get their name out there and get heard. And there's a ton of talent, but it's just a matter of connecting to an audience, which is which is tired, tiresome sometimes. It's very debilitating to you put all your energy into your art, and then there's the expectation that you put even more energy into marketing your art, which is a totally different skill set.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

And I learned as I went. I did not, I was a school teacher doing this on the side for many years. And back in 1982 or three, I told my wife, I would like to try doing this full-time, full energy, not after school or in summers or holidays. And I'll never forget what she told. We've been we'll be married 50 years this July. Yeah, it's equal to 100 years in California.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

And and uh the kids were young. My son and daughter, daughter was a little bitty thing. My son was about six, seven years old. And I'll never forget, she said, Listen, I can make beans and rice in a hundred variations, go paint. In other words, we won't starve.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Wow, that that is inspirational because I know a lot of people get a lot of pressure from family and especially their life partner, which is what are you doing? It's like, how are we gonna pay for that college if you're gonna go off and do your art thing? And families don't take it seriously enough when it's deeply passionate for the individual, and they'll be dismissive as a frivolous hobby that's interfering with our livelihood.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yes. What do you think you're gonna make a living playing your guitar? Are you crazy? And this has been said to Eric Clapton, to Jimmy Page, to everybody growing up.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Get a real job.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, learn a trade.

SPEAKER_04 19:16

Yeah, like yeah, learn something, learn how to be a plumber, be uh be an electrician. Yes, or you go through a period as an artist of um yeah, Jack White of the White Stripes was a furniture upholstering. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah, for you in Detroit.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

He's upholstering furniture, and then he's going to his room and he's listening to Sun House and he's laying it down.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Rod Stewart was a great gigger.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Absolutely. Heard that too. Yeah, yeah, heard that. So the message here, artist, is if you've got a plan B, you're probably gonna take it and find people in your family, in your friend circle, who support you. It's they don't denigrate your art, they encourage you, and they're not jealous of you, but they're supportive. That could be very, very useful. How did you convert it then? So you get the go code from your spouse. We're gonna eat beans and rice, Clayton, and I believe in you, and you're an artist, and go for it. How did you convert that into what would amount to being a career as an artist? How'd you do it?

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Well, I walked away from family health plan, all that stuff that comes to perks of being an organization.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

And I went down to Oceanside Harbor and I set my easel up and just whatever I pointed it at, the boats, the pelicans and seagulls, and I put a canvas and I painted. It's it's called uh plain air painting, which means you're on location painting in real light, real shadows. And if you have to do it day after day, you got to show up at the same hour for the shadows and all. It'd be relatively the same anyway. And that's what I started doing. And as I'd finished painting, some of them rather small, I'd set them in around me and I'd be at my easel, and it attracted attention because you're out in the public.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

You were doing social media before social media, so instead of posting your shit on Facebook or TikTok, you were actually out on the beach. And nobody, no one's and then you staked your claim and they knew where to find you, when to find you, and then you had output that was there, and you were interacting dynamically with your environment and with your audience.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

And when the boat owners got a load of the detail I did, hey, can you paint my boat? It's over on J12 slip. Sure enough, I'd go shoot a picture of it, angles of it, and I would compose a painting for them. They may sell that boat someday, they'll always have that painting of their boat. And that became bread and butter. The yacht club invited me every year to their opening day ceremonies.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

That's brilliant. So you were commissioning your work from the people whom you solicited seeing you in action on the beach. Yes. So you grew your business organically in a way that was a dynamic social setting that provided value to your customers, and that wow, if you could paint that, then. You could paint exactly our boat, you could paint whatever you had the photorealism going, yes, which was adaptable to any kind of format for any kind of purpose.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

For to many yeah, and it really grew. It grew. My paintings, I'd try to sell them for $25 and $50 and maybe a hundred or so. And as it grew, of course, the prices went up, covering the kids' tuition in pro school. And I'm just, I can't tell you how grateful I am that.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Well, this is inspirational and astonishing that people think this never happens, and you didn't. Well, what were the years here? What was the era where this was going down?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Uh, this was in the 80s.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

This is in the 80s, okay. And so it was pre-digital, so artists really didn't have an opportunity to to spew on the social networks. That's true. And uh, it was real-time, really immersive kind of kind of engagement.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

And by 1990, restaurant people were just down there doing business with other restaurants at the harbor, and they saw me. Hey, can you come in here a moment? And they would give me a wall, like it started with Jose Cuervo to Cuba. Yeah, can you paint a big bottle of Cuervo gold and and a big margarita? And I said, sure. And what I did was an Acapulco cliff scene, the divers of Acapulco. Yeah, yeah. But he's dying, his sombrero's coming off, and he's diving into a huge margarita.

SPEAKER_04 23:25

It sounds like a current ad, actually. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

And that led to all the brands. I became the hired brush. They'd send me all over the country doing murals that would show their product. Sometimes it would be a simple table setup, realistic scale, excuse me. And sometimes colossal, monumental, big as this wall bottles shots. And it became, again, like a bread and butter gig. They could call me all the time, send me everywhere, put me in a hotel if I'm up in Santa Barbara or wherever they send me, and I would do these murals that would somehow show their theme. And a funny little anecdote to that is the patron people. I got to meet the fellow in Santa Barbara who owned the rights to bring patron, sell patron in America, Italy, all over the world. He had a step fan pull up at our house in Oceanside, and the driver comes in with a case of Añejo, a case of reposado, and a case of blanco of patron tequila. It's very expensive stuff. Our neighbors thought, my God, what drunks are these folks? They're having cases of tequila delivered to their house.

SPEAKER_04 24:33

They're paying you in bulls, Clayton. We never told them. They're paying you in the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

We never told them either. Let them wonder.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

Yeah. That's terrific. So you organically evolved this business from basically akin to a street side musician, only instead of just having a little jar for them to tip you, they realized that what you were producing would actually benefit them and could be marketable product that could move their own stuff.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

That label had to be exact. Whatever brand I'm doing, and some of them are very complex. Jack Daniels is white lettering on a black back.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

Very intricate.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Takes three coats to make that white opaque. Yeah. It's it's tricky. Anyway, that was one of the requirements. When the bosses came in and looked at it, it had to look just like a gleaming. I can show you samples of that as well. But anyway, that was one side thing. And all my career is referral. I've never advertised other than had a business card and much, much later the website. Other than that, it was all someone told someone I know a guy. And it I went through many more restaurants than I could ever count.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

So word-of-mouth advertising to this day is significant. Because even when they do what's called influen influencer social commerce marketing on TikTok, it's still word of mouth in the sense that you're hearing directly from someone whom you trust, whom you know, and they're they're they're passing it along. They're endorsing you, they're endorsing you and they're passing you. Look at this guy, he did this awesome mural in this restaurant, he did this ad for me. And uh check him out. He showed up, and the one thing leads to another.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

He showed up when he said he would, he got it done when he said he would. There was no surprises, no added fees that snuck in. So all the integrity and the punctuality made a big you would think that would be, of course, but in this day and age, in any day and age, you just showing up is 70%. Yeah, I can't tell you all the stories I've heard of trades and artists that anyway. So I made a point of doing what I said and be on time, no matter where it was. I've gone to meetings in Calabasas, way up north of LA, and been there at 9 a.m. And he's telling me I have employees that live three blocks from here. I can't even get them in here on time. They were impressed. So it's it's a confidence builder, Mookie. Yeah, they can trust you, and that's golden.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

Yeah, absolutely. So there's two things going on here from three things. So the first off is your photorealistic style lended itself well to multi-purposing your approach as an artist. So you can do an amazing mural, a cultural mural, you could do some kind of interpretive expose, but you could also be laser focused on getting the logo and labeling right for a brand because you're so precise.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:21

And then that lended itself to creativity coming out in other ways that could augment the brand message. So, for example, the Acapulco Divers in the Cuervo bottle, and that added zip to it. You weren't just, it wasn't just a photo of a bottle, it was uh an experience of a scene that you brought to life with that with that whimsical zing that that that you also have. True. And that enabled you to branch out to be multi-purpose. The other thing is you showed up on time and you delivered on time so you were reliable and they could trust you. So big key factor. And the last is this word of mouth approach, which is like they didn't just read an ad or get coaxed into hiring Clayton. It's like they saw examples of your work which were reinforced and referred by friends and network, true, and then you grew it that way. That that's great advice to artists, even now. Oh, yeah. Which is which is stay true to what you're doing and be clear and direct in what you're trying to communicate. Uh, be reliable when people do hire you, and build your network organically. Don't just sit around and wait for shit to happen. Go out and talk to people, network.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I'm working on a book. I have been working on the manuscript for over a year now, and part of it is exactly what you're talking about. Helpful, hopefully helpful information for those out there who desire a career in art, any art, music, painting. I that this is the stuff. What exactly what you're saying is what I lay down as the fundamentals. Beyond time, be honest, no tricks, no funny price increases. Now, that isn't to say if someone gives you a change order, they they request something more than you had signed on for, even can add price. Of course, that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

Yeah, yeah, but don't don't rip people off, be genuine, that's right, be honest, that's right, and then be true to yourself as an artist. So you love doing the the Cuervo ad, or you enjoyed yourself. You love you, you love painting, you love doing these creative works.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

I got to raise my family.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

You got to raise your family, so there's no shame. There's it's not like selling out, it's doing your art and getting paid for it. Wouldn't that be nice?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

And I I understand the difference between commercial things like say liquor industry related work and the other themes I've done, which is every theme in the world that's more fine art. So I understand this is more commercial. That doesn't mean you can't sprinkle it with good, funny or interesting details. I love that add little things.

SPEAKER_04 30:00

A restaurant little Easter eggs that go in there, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Restaurant's basically a building with tables and chairs and they serve food and drink. So when you clothe it with murals and interesting artifacts, it gives the customer something to look at, talk about. Time goes by easier. And sometimes they say, Who is this guy? Can you get me his phone number? And that's how it's always been, always been.

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Every business is like that. If you've been a corporate stooge for a while, and I have been, and in ways I still am to pay part of the rent, uh, you see like anything from a potted plant to a piece of art hanging on the wall. And corporations go out of their way to create a lived experience for their employees, which is pleasant, which is human. Yes. And this is 10x, 100x for restaurants, establishments, downtown Vista, California, where the people in charge with some money, they want to make a comfortable experience for whomever's there. If it's a diner, if it's a tourist, it's a visitor, you're adding value. You're creating an enhanced ambiance through your art, which will benefit businesses, which will benefit a municipality, and which will benefit a culture who wants to celebrate their history. So make yourself relevant, artists. It's not just about you, it's about matching your gifts with a capability that can bring it up even more.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

And another, I think, an important component is try not to be pigeonholed into only one kind of thing. You don't want people to think, well, he only paints seascapes, so we want a desert scene. So we don't want to call him. I I've done such a variety of themes, I can't even begin to tell you. But that's I escaped that being pigeonholed. They can rely on me to do almost anything you can imagine.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

That's that's absolutely brilliant, too, because there's a tendency when we brand people and things, which is oh, that that guy's a director, he's an actor. Yeah, that guy does uh see seaside landscapes, and he can't really do an urban scene.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

This one does comedy, he couldn't do serious acting.

SPEAKER_04 32:12

Yeah, he's a stand-up comic.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

He can't really not at all.

SPEAKER_04 32:16

And back in the day, it's like Bruce Willis was the first guy to really like jump from TV. If you're TV, you're like C-list. And then a big screen, he can never be on the well, he won't.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

It's a guy.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

It's like, you know, I only play acoustic guitar. I can't play interact. It's the same thing, it's got six strings on it, everybody. And it's the same thing with art and artists and capability. I believe so. You just see the tip of the iceberg when you see someone's work. And who knows? They could be an actor and they could be a mean tap dancer, too. It's like Christopher Watkin started as a dancer, as a dancer, and then it's like, oh, everyone knows him as you know, the guy, the guy in Pulp Fiction with the grandfather's watch. Well, there's a there's a backstory to that, and it's a full dimensionality of him as a human and him as a creative person. And you're bringing up an awesome point, which is don't marginalize yourself as an artist, be flexible, like you're really good at doing that. Well, do it, but that doesn't mean you can't switch gears a little bit and be adaptive to a business community that would welcome your work if you just loosen it up a little bit and try different stuff.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yes, and any theme, whether it's a western theme or outer space, yes, you tackle it.

SPEAKER_04 33:30

You got the hero and the villain, and they work it out, and then shit happens. The end.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

I I've read many, many books on on the soundtrack of my life, rock and roll. Like from the 50s, my older sisters, I was the human doorknob, they'd be dancing around me and you know, learning their dances, and we're watching American Bandstand and the Johnny Otis show and early, early stuff, and then the 60s and the 70s. And the point being, musicians will all tell you they get bored sticking with the same thing. They want to evolve, they want to do something else. I've seen Led Zeppelin in their heyday twice. Those guys could do Blood and Thunder and they could do Delicate, Lovely. Going to California. Yeah, many, any, and they could do both, not just and the Beatles.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

Even the Beatles evolving into the psychedelics, it's not just because they got high, but how many, how many times can you record a one-minute, 40-second hit which is near perfection? You know, help, I need somebody. All right, that was great, guys. But then what next? What next? You're a good example of evolving. Change it up a little bit, not only for the market, not only to make money, but for your own self as an artist. Like, get off your ass, stop pumping out the same stuff, keep it interesting. If you're in the world, it'll probably be good for your career too.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Absolutely. If the true artist doesn't want to stagnate, they want to evolve, they should be evolving. They should be taking on. I still to this day will take on a project of a theme I've never done before. But I'll get some materials, do a little research, gather some materials to go by and do it. And there's another little thing on my belt now. I've done this, I've done outer space themes, you know. It's important to stretch, be willing to stretch.

SPEAKER_04 35:23

And it seems that courage goes all the way back to your early days because you you were describing how this all didn't just happen at once. There's struggle in it, there's not being successful for years, and stubbornly clinging to your vision, and and in a sense, forcing your talent to happen, not taking no for an answer. Can you share some of your earlier years and like your van story that you shared with me earlier? And how how this this example of being successful didn't just happen like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

No, I like I I think I'd mentioned you I my folks had passed away very young in my life. My dad, by the time I was 20, home gone, everything disposed of, and I bought for $300 from a friend of mine an old 59 Volkswagen van, the split windshield, six-volt thing, you know. And I insulated it, paneled it entirely, put a decent Blaopunks FM music system in the thing, converted it to 12 volt, thick curtains made, and I had a mattress in bed and foot locker underneath, and my little pots and pans, and my Coleman, two burner Coleman stove. And I moved in that deal like a hermit crab found him a shell, and I lived in it for three and a half years while I went through college. And I I I'm grateful I was smart enough to get scholarships and grants because I had no support. There was nobody to help me at all, none. And so I managed. I did it, and I got my degrees and I got a credential to teach secondary education, and I finally was able to get my first little bachelor apartment after I graduated college and got my first teaching job at a Catholic school, dollar an hour and all the holy water I could drink. But it and always all through this, I'm painting and I'm doing a little work and getting a little commission here and there. And then it went on that living in that van was some of the freest times in my life. I'd tell people I have social mobility. I could park in Watts or Beverly Hills and I'm home wherever I go. And it was really an adventure as a surfer, lifelong surfer, we were up and down the coast. It was perfect.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

Yeah, so you were living the life. So it it was fueled by an unfortunate series of events. You're kind of like Lemony Snicket here a little bit. You lost your parents.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

I had to grow up, I had to get home.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

And then you were you were on your own. So then you just uh get the van and your mobile, and moving. And and you're also working and studying. And it wasn't like you just tuned out. You actually tuned in, it sounds like I gotta do that. You tuned into working and you kept honing your craft as an artist, too.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

It it was a uh a matter of survival, really, economic survival. At one point, I had a job on campus too, as well as my full loaded classes. At one point, I went out to where I parked my van off campus, it was gone. They had literally jacked it up and towed it away with everything I owned in it. The pictures of my parents, my books, all my clothes, everything I owned was in that van except my surfboard. It was at a buddy's house. We all had come back from a trip, stowed our boards. And here's what I wanted to get to. I went into a Bank of America. I had it, my hair was kinky. I had a big natural the black girls in college would go, honey, how'd you get your hair so pretty? I went in this bank, I had no account with them, I had no account anywhere. I'm this hippie, and I I sit down with Mr. Braithwaite. I'll never forget this van. He's a big, hefty, bald with glasses, he looked like a bank. Big shot. And I told him my sad story. I'm still currently student teaching. I'm at a Cal State LA University. They stole my van, my my whole home. I want to get it, crawl into another van. Would you lend me the money to get a used car so I can keep going? He listened to my spiel. You have an account? No. Why did you come in here? I said, Well, I knew my sister, one of my sisters a long time ago, once had an account here. And so he just he eyed me for a moment and he goes, Listen, son, we don't lend money for used cars, number one. Number two, you've got no collateral, and I'm gonna lend you the money.

SPEAKER_04 39:59

He saw something yeah, relationship in earnestness.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

I'd have done a cartoon of this big-haired hippie and this bank guy face to face. Yeah, and he did. He said, Go find what you need and let me know. And I did, and in those days, they gave you a coupon book, and each time you yeah, every time you rip off the thing to pay.

SPEAKER_04 40:17

I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Yeah, I made it a goal in my life to pay that off. I paid it off before it was due, yeah, eventually. Yeah, and I'll never forget. I got a 71 camper van, had a little sink in it, an ice box. I was like an upgrade. Uh, didn't have the personality of my old 59, but I was in a good, solid home again. And I'll never forget. And so Segway, years later, I'm in Pasadena. The current girlfriend at the time, she had to go in this big Bank of America, like an administrative office, a skyscraper. And I'm waiting, I go upstairs with her and I'm waiting while she goes in to deal with it. This woman comes out. Can I help you? No, I'm waiting on my friend. And I said, You know, I want to tell you, I don't have an account with Bank of America, but long time ago, a Mr. Braithwaite and I gave her my story, right? It was Mrs. Braithwaite. She goes, Well, my husband retired years ago, but I can't wait to tell him. I ran into you.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Oh, yeah. Talk about karma and talk about tying the knot. That's a great story.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Oh man, it's I get goosebumps thinking about it.

SPEAKER_04 41:20

So there is something to be said about integrity, honesty, trust, fulfillment of keeping keeping promises, showing gratitude and being and being grateful.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Yes, by all means, by all means.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

And it also jump started you because you got ripped off. You had to reboot your whole life. They they probably didn't even realize we're stealing this guy's entire life.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

I'm sure they didn't.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

And they just here's a here's a van, let's take it.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

I just had a two-barrel 55-horse engine put in it. I hadn't even finished paying for it, and they got it. And but you know what? Uh the point being, you you have to persevere in life. All of us go through setbacks. All of us. For me, it was like I akin to coming out of prison. I gotta get a toothbrush and a towel, you know, a shaving kit. I gotta get a pair of underwear. You have to start all over again. And I did. And friends chipped in clothes because I had to stand up in front of green.

SPEAKER_04 42:15

Yeah, and you reached out for help when you needed it. So you were able to show your vulnerability, you didn't hide behind calamity.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

My friends were my family, which they've been so wonderful, all of us. We're still tight, we're still good friends.

SPEAKER_04 42:28

Yeah, Tim, who referred me to you. So going all the way back to childhood, that's terrific.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yes, yeah, as little boys in short pants.

SPEAKER_04 42:35

Yeah, and then there's a common theme here, folks, which is um art is a human endeavor. And success in life means not only excelling at your craft, but making connections with other people to share value and share emotions. And it seems like that part of you is there, that sense of woo and connectivity and empathy and networking, right? So, so your success has been contingent on not only your mad skills as an artist, but it's your your your depth and passion when it comes to connecting with other human beings. And that got you going when you're on your beach with your little setup, and then you evolved your business that way. It got you out of hot water here.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

You have to love it.

SPEAKER_04 43:16

It's a people business, folks. So it is this idea of the starving artist living in a basement, right? And then and then all of a sudden you release it to the world and everyone goes, Whoa, you're a genius, and then there you get it. There you're done. You're done with the struggle. No, the struggle continues, and central to it is is relating to and talking to others.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

And when you do public works like I've done for so many places, casinos in Vegas, you have to like people because you're going to be interacting with all sorts. Most folks are rather fascinated to watch a mural go up. Yeah, don't they don't often see that, they see the finished product. So I don't mind. That's my years of as a teacher at answer questions. You often get other artists or beginners. Or you know, hobbyists asking me questions. Well, it's a spectacle.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Everything about it is a spectacle from beginning to end. The final product is the world's largest historical mural, right? And then the building of it and the creation of it is a step-by-step process. And obviously, you're getting the whole community noticing and involved.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Yes. So you have to be a people person.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

Yeah. So you're birthing it.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

And believe me, a lot of artists do not want to be watched. They want the privacy of that studio, make their mistakes, do whatever their things are, right? Fix and repair it.

SPEAKER_04 44:33

Once again, it's the vulnerability thing. Yeah, exactly. You don't mind exposing that. I do not mind. Which, ironically, and perhaps obviously enough, that's when the real connection between people is made. If you come out as a superstar, I'm Einstein, I'm Da Vinci, and here's my stuff, worship me. People are naturally put off. They're like, who the hell is this guy? Who the hell is this guy? Why is he doing what he's doing? But if you take it step by step and you reveal your humanity, and if you do drop the ball like everyone drops the ball, then everyone lets their guard down and they welcome you into their lives. And then they'll extol you when they see you've done something magnificent and they feel more comfortable with the fact that you've done what you've done, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

And my wife would tell you, I have never, nor would I ever want to be that guy that's mysterious and deep.

SPEAKER_04 45:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Wear a lot of black.

SPEAKER_04 45:23

Yeah. They made a book somewhere that's. I guess it works for Banksy. But uh, but there aren't too many Banksys. I think the reason it works for Banksy is because he's so contrarian in every possible way. The fact that it's so unknown and there's no access, none whatsoever. It's like Thomas Pynchon, the writer. No, you know, who the hell is he? Yeah, who the hell is he? Where is he? I lived in Manhattan and he lived in Manhattan. I used to always wonder how close you know our paths happen to cross. But it works for some, but in general, if you're starting out and you want to be an artist, it does help if you create something of a social network. So, okay, so you go from the van to the other van. And then tell us a little bit about your evolution as an artist, though. So you've got to focus on photorealistic stuff. You don't mess around, you infuse it with whimsy. Yes. But but how did it happen? How did your art evolve to the point where people welcomed it later in life?

SPEAKER_00 46:22

It it really began when I was as far back as I remember, I was four years old. Things appropriate for a young child. And I'm drawing all the time. And they I remember them passing it around. My grandmother was like, look what Clayton did, look at what he did here. And it reinforces you. You know what I mean? Now all the grown-ups like it. And I started studying more, paying attention to drawing at first, not painting. And my folks are enrolling me in Saturday art schools, nice ones, good ones, Art Center, College of Design, the Pasadena Art Institute. And I hated Saturday, I want to be playing football with my buddies. I don't want to be in an art class, but I'm glad they did it. Because, and I I tell other parents the same thing. It put me in an environment with other kids my age who also loved art. And I'd often get up and go look at what this one did and that one did. And it's reinforcing when you're put in that environment. Anyway, it all went to fortify me. And I began when I was in junior college in uh in Pasadena, Pasadena City College, on probation, academic probation, because I'd never got a high school diploma. I never took a 12th grade class. They booted me out, get out of here. You're 18, get out of here. Many reasons. A lot of going surfing during school time. And occasionally I was into boxing big time when I was younger, and I couldn't. There was a lot of gangs in LA there.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

And I couldn't take it, and I knocked the block off. They expelled again. Anyway, so I go to Pasadena City College on academic probation, made the dean's list and went on and on. But I walked a girlfriend I had at the time to her science building. She was a science major, and the chairman of that department would often be outside the building on the steps, getting a breather. And he knew my girlfriend, Mary, and she told him I'm an art major, yes, I'm an art major. And he said, Hey, listen, we use clear plastic transparencies to teach on our opaque projector, cast the images up and we discussed.

SPEAKER_04 48:28

I remember those protections. Yeah, before any digital phones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

And so I got this is my first professional gig. I got paid to do ink illustrations on these clear plastic transparencies. And he'd give me the books, and here's what I want you to do. And I would be true to it and I would illustrate it. And I made money. I couldn't believe it. I'm being paid now.

SPEAKER_04 48:53

Yeah, so you got they they they tickled your cherry early with this idea that uh I could actually do what I love. Yes. And someone who is a professional person with a need within his profession will actually pay me dineros to do this. And that that got instilled early, it sounds like. So so you you got accustomed to getting paid for your work.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yes. My my aunt in New York, New York born and raised, she worked with Andy Warhol back when he was a shoe designer, before he was Andy Warhol.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

And she told me her advice to me was Clayton, find a need and fill it.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

The bottom line of business, find a need and fill it. And that's what happened with the science thing.

SPEAKER_04 49:40

Yeah, and then you reiterated that with the brand work and the restaurant work and then the mural work, too. So so be be in tune not only to your own muse, but to the surroundings in terms of taking your muse and plugging her in. Plug her in to where she might have a need.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

There was a time, this is way, way back. This is the late 70s in Ohio. I was teaching at Ohio University for a few years, and I did billboard. You mentioned billboards before, you just go by and glance. I I have done 500 square foot billboards. I'm talking 50 feet long and 10 feet high by the freeway, and it's old Milwaukee beer. Milwaukee is a very big word.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

And the M in Milwaukee was, you know, a five feet high. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

And it had to be we used to drink old Milwaukee back in high school. That was that was that was the cheap stuff. The cheap stuff back in Chicago, old Milwaukee beer, and Paps, the blue ribbon. Those were the competing, the competing dredge brands. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

I did it, and the bosses pulled up and they liked it and paid me. I think it was like $400 for doing this enormous billboard. Anyway, I did anything with a brush that was legal in the early days.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

So to supplement my teaching income. Because of course I loved it. I wanted to do what it was.

SPEAKER_04 51:05

How do you get it so accurate? This we're going from your story to something that's very tactical from the artistic point of view. But there's such a blending of talents here. On the one hand, you need to visualize stuff creatively. Yes. But on the other one, you need to, in a sense, and and sometimes literally photographically reproduce logos, images of things, even people. How do you take an idea in your head and your own visual recollection of something and translate that to not just a canvas in your living room, but something which is very large in scale? That's right. How do you how do you do it? You gotta like stand up and look at it and do you measure it in your head? What kind of measurements do you do? Do you have uh a ruler and you sit there measuring and you're thinking in terms of proportion? Or is it more or less intuitive how you do it?

SPEAKER_00 52:00

It's more intuitive, but I'll tell you what illustrates this. It's one of the very first big murals I did in Alhambra. I had my first teaching job, parochial school. Down the street was a guy that sold new and used jeans. Whole side of his business faced a vacant lot. Would I do a mural for him? And I came up with the old covered wagon and the old bearded dude, the jean uh, you know, uh, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Yeah, the vest.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Yeah, the whole long and the four-horse team, and there's barrels and there's pikes and things. He's the merchant, he's the traveling, but he's wearing his jeans.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

And it was like a sunset and an Oregon woodsy treesy thing. And I created this, he loved it, but my God, in painted it, I had to run back half a block and see if I'm making horses the size of dogs and then dogs the size of horses.

SPEAKER_04 52:53

That's what I mean. This is your first your first exposure to proportionality, facial and then perspective, proportion, spatial relationships. Because once again, if you know you're you're doing the watercolor as a hobby and you're making a forest or a flower vase or whatever, it's right there in front of you. Yes, and then you you see all the proportions. But when you're dealing with something two stories tall, yes, and in the case of the 565-foot mural, perspective is everything, so that's how you learned, in a sense, intuitively getting a flavor for the bigness of stuff, not a lot of measuring and the relationship between things, yeah, not a lot of measuring, but yet the more you practice it's so important. It's internalized, you get a feel for the right size. Yes, and you're a very intuitive person. Once again, this left brain, right brain thing, you're you're a right brain kind of guy.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

I'll tell you something on that note. Yeah, as an art teacher, I divided my class between right-handed and left-handed students. For the right-handers, I gave them a picture of a human being, full-size human being, for them to look at and draw. For the left-handers, I turned the same thing upside down. So now it's not a human, now it's like a contour map.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

Ankles and the fingers, and I made them look at it using that other side of their brain.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

And you wouldn't believe when we flip them over the results, there was it was true. That right brain lifting is there's something to it.

SPEAKER_04 54:25

There is something to it. It's probably not absolute because the brain is way more plastic than people assume. So people who suffer brain injuries, for example, they lose a literally a chunk of their mind. It re reorganizes to compensate for that. So that's one of the fascinating things about the human mind. But at the same time, you can make these generalities about how people see the world and then how people do their art.

unknown 54:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 54:51

And there are people who are just way more emotional and intuitive, others are more cognitive and analytical. You're you're distinctly intuitive and less analytical and more going by your gut. You're an intuitive side of the artist. Again, because you're realistic like this, though. See, that's to me is very, very interesting that you're not sitting there with a ruler and and uh and a little calculator measuring the ratios. These just come out as a consequence of your experience and and and doing it.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

I remember in college took in a graphic arts class, and this is before we had all the digital letters. My my son at his fingertips can do amazing things, and I'm doing it all by hand, the old-fashioned way, counting pika with lettering, doing a reverse of an image, you know, on the light table. And I used to like Mr. Boskin, I'll never forget him. I'd say, Well, what the heck do I need this? And I want to be an artist. And he said, You want to learn everything, you want to love the letters. I'd never forget. He said, You got to learn to love the letters. And later on, doing this work for the liquor industry, did that not come into play? Spatial relationships, old English lettering.

SPEAKER_04 56:04

You had internalized it, it was in your gut.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

It was great training, yes, great preparation for later on when I was required to have things, those labels had to be exact and all the various fonts and sizes and scales. It came, it came in handy. So I tell students, don't reject anything. You may think you don't need math. Believe me, that'll come in handy, wouldn't it? And it does.

SPEAKER_04 56:26

Yeah, and in your gut in this sense, too. The math was in your gut. Eddie Eddie Van Halen used to say that he needs to feel the notes. So he literally in his body would feel the difference, let's say, between an A and a B. And then when he'd hit the chord and do the dive bomb, he needed to be shaken physically by the music. So his idea of it, it's not what you're hearing, but it's what he's feeling in his gut, and that translated to his work. So the connection between the physical process of playing, listening to the sounds, but most significantly, and I think this is the clincher, feeling it in your soul. God, and that makes it visceral, it makes it deeply intuitive. You're tapping into something that most people will miss, and it'll open up the door to a whole realm of creativity other people haven't even thought about because they're just listening and they're just comparing and they're just playing. And with art, it's I think the same thing, which is you feel it in your gut. You have to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

My first, as I mentioned, my first teaching job in El Hambra up in LA at this Catholic school, Van Halen began in Pasadena. That's where they were all from. Yeah, they played local school dances back in the before they were, and the I used to chaperone dances, and the kids would complain when Van Halen came. David Lee Roth would introduce him as sweet, gentle Van Halen. And the bass would pitch in the and the kids were going, they're just too loud, Mr. Parker. They're just too loud.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

I'd never forget it. Van Halen was playing the school days.

SPEAKER_04 58:04

Yeah, I mean, play line, not only just to be rude, but that's a part of it, you gotta make your statement. But again, it's you gotta feel the music. And I think you need to feel the art. And if the artist feels the art, this is the connection, which I think is magic. If you as an artist are feeling the art here, that heightens the chance that people who receive your art, who look at it, who touch it, who listen to it, who read it, will feel that same kind of spark and energy. That that's I think where the magic happens, and people recognize that. So very, very, very interesting, right? Oh, it is. And and what's interesting about your work though, it's projected in a in a big scale. It's it's big stuff when it comes to your mural.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

Going way back to the earliest mural days, I got an opportunity to do a mural in children's hospital in Hollywood. It was the financial interview section of the hospital where the parents are doing the business of booking their child in, and they had an alcove, cushions to sit on, you know, bench-like seating, and and the walls went in about five feet, about 15 feet, and then out five feet. They wanted me to do a mural around here. Well, what I ended up doing looked like a big paint by numbers scene with little numbers on the rocks with this that color and this color. I filled in little parts of it, had Alice in Wonderland's Cheshire cat in the end, coming in on the branch. And the the adults are the staff are going, What's like a kid? What do you we they thought they were gonna get a grand mural? And I said, Listen, this is for the kids. They're being booked into a hospital. There, it's obviously they're sick, and they're freaked out.

SPEAKER_04 59:44

You want to make them comfortable. You created a fill-in-the-blank coloring book. And I told them about that was that an immersive color, they were entering a coloring book.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

And I told them I want you to mount a big box of crayons on the beneath this mirror and let the kids finish it.

SPEAKER_04 59:59

Right, brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Once they got it, it was okay, we get it. At first they thought this is silly, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

It was for the children.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:07

So know your audience. Know your audience and add as much engagement and interactivity as you can, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

And personalize it. I in all the paintings I've done for people, I always want to include something that's personal, maybe it's them or their dogs are in the mural. Something that you could not go buy anywhere. You could only get this custom done. So it personalizes it by putting in their classic car that they love, or their selves, or their, you know, the children, whatever, the house, whatever it may be that makes it theirs. And I've always made a point of doing that as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:43

Terrific. Let's talk a little bit more about some of your work. Transition back to this guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

This is uh like Hernandez Hideaway, and I did all the murals inside, and then this is spans the whole outside of the building. And 25 years ago, I painted all this. They called me up, the family that owns it. Are you still painting? Yes. Would you please come and redo it? It's been 25 years, you know, a little faded and whatnot. And I did, but I changed things. Like if in this version, way over in the corner was just a basket shop, and I turned it into a pottery shop for an excuse for color and shape and design. Much more interesting than a bunch of brown baskets.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

The first one was the same tarp and all but brown baskets, and now it's this.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:31

See, your your stuff is so realistic, too, that when I'm holding the photo up, and even from a distance, it's it's hard to tell sometimes, mural or photo, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:41

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

So I redid it. There's another shot there with the burrow, you know, the the working burrow.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:51

Yeah, everyone loves an ass. Here's a piece of ass for everybody who's watching.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

When I the first time I did this, this was a a pet shop. Their little son was five years old. Nickel, nickel, his name is Nick, so we called it Nicolito's pet shop.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

Well, now he's a grown adult. He serves on the USS Eisenhower. He's over there right now. Yeah. And so then I turned it into a uh a toy store, and I got a kit right here of the USS Eisenhower.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:23

Oh, as an homage.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

As an homage. And when he came home on leave, I surprised it.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:27

That must have been really heartwarming to see that he went from little Nikki to the ad.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

And see what I mean by personalized.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

Yes, and again, it's audience and it's client and it's it's target focused. So it's not about you being this genius mural maker, it's about them feeling the satisfaction of their emotions being expressed through your work. Yes, right. Lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

That's another shot of it. There's a baskets I painted on the wall, the shadows and whatnot.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:59

Look at the detail, folks. These are not real baskets, these are Clayton's baskets.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:06

I do peeling brick effects, the plaster's peeled. You like it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:09

Yeah, so once again, it it looks again, especially in this medium here. It looks like I just took a photo of a bunch of pots hanging on a wall with the plaster chipping, right? Right? That's terrific.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

And then this is the end of the mural last shot. And I just I like the vase and the and the floral arrangement in it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:28

Okay, and once again, it's it's realistic to the point where you know, just looking at this, you have a tough time differentiating it from a photo or from a view, yet at the same time, it has certain elements which makes it a little bit whimsical and a little bit eccentric.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

Which gives it a little a little zinc.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

See the blue violets in the palm tree on that side, and on this side, there's oranges and yellows and uh red oxide. So it's more interesting that way than just a brown trunk. Yes, light brown, dark brown.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:59

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

Am I pushing this down too far?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:02

No, no, don't worry about that. So the terrific stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:05

And it I gotta tell you one little last anecdote about this mural you just showed.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

This one?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

When I'm on the tail end at this point, this old timer comes by, he's been watching me. He goes, You know, kid, you're doing a lot better job than that first character. He didn't know it was me. And I just smiled and said, Thank you. I've been practicing.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:24

He thought you were the touch-up, he thought you were the touch-up guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Doing a lot better than that first character.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:29

It made him feel more comfortable, right? That he could insult, uh insult what allegedly came before when it's when it's the same guy, right? People just need to feel comfortable, comfortable with you with your stuff. So, in addition to the mural work, what other art do you indulge with?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

I've illustrated books, uh, done illustrations for magazines, I've done album covers, yeah. Uh just a whole menu covers we can share here too.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:57

We've got other stuff. So, once again, if you're on uh audio, folks, actually, a big chunk of this conversation was just audio, audiolicious because talking about your art and your life, this is a nice composite. So you're if you're on the video, you can see this now. Let me share this.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

And that's the actual patio and arrangement in the background of this place of Rose Canyon Cantina.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:23

Okay, so this is an example of artwork that you're doing for an eatery.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

Yeah, it's a menu cover.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:29

It's a menu cover, and again, it's deeply human, personalized, fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

And there's chili peppers all over here and tomatoes. You know, you think of a Mexican food place.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:38

Wonderful, wonderful. I remember saying this is just my I used to work at Round Table Pizza in Resita, California back in the 80s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Place got robbed at gunpoint like once a month. This is the 80s, the roaring 80s. And I remember they had the menu and it had a medieval scene with a woman with this big white dress. And then the manager came out and goes, Hey, Mookie, check this out. And he pointed To the bottom of the dress and her two feet sticking out like there was some guy. Did you ever do Easter eggs like that? Did you ever do maybe not sexual like that, but just uh no, but I have done little hidden eggs, little hidden Easter eggs in there. That's kind of fun. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

This is uh an album cover and CD cover I did for a band called the Brothers Larson. This is a compilation, a best of for them.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:25

I can see it reads backwards on the yeah, I think it might revert when it goes. It's a we're on digital, so it does a little switcheroo, but um I they'll be they'll be able to see this. This is great.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

A classical thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:36

His wife is he can go in front and point like this.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

His his wife is there.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:42

You go up there.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Uh up.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

See, there's the camera.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:48

There you are. There's your finger.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

I did a classical frame, very classical. His wife is Indian, so she's in there with uh holding uh uh this skull, this you know, cascole. The brothers, one of them played the uh the the the fender precision bass, uh-huh, the other one played the Les Paul, Gibson Les Paul songs.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:11

Those are their guitars they're like the uh the swords in the crossing over the crest, yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

And I wanted it to look classic. There's the cornucopia up here, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:21

That's great. It's it's again one of those images where there's endless detail in it, and the more you study it, and each of the details are reflective of some of the emotional and biographical needs of the client, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

We were real happy with it, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, this is irreverent. This was my Christmas card to my friends.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:39

How to tell you've been really bad. And this is literally, I love this. This is literally, folks, if you're again on audience, Santa taking a shit down a chimney, chat a chimney flute. And uh I wrote a I wrote a novel series, an illustrated novel called Super Santa, and this would fit in there as a uh is a little illustration, and actually it inspires a new scene if we ever do a third edition. That's really great. I'll give you credit for uh for Super Santa taking a dump down the chimney.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

I don't know, you've been really bad. Oh, these aren't really important, they're just t-shirt designs that I did for the restaurant.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

Well, this gives folks an uh an impression of of the style of your work. Look at once again, there's a theme here, which is exquisite lettering, uh, a photorealistic image, yet with whimsy and attitude. He's drinking his margaritas, he's drinking the bird is is sipping at the margarita, which is a great, great visual.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

And this one, the guy's dreaming about tacos and margaritas. This character is used in their logo. And so I kind of animated him by adding the dreaming, he's little hearts. Yeah, he's dreaming about his tacos and and uh so these are t-shirt designs.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:59

Yeah, yeah. Those are those are just really fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

And this became a new menu cover for them, not only for their menu cover, but for their product. They sell bottles of mixer for tequila.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:11

Okay, once again, products, practical application of your stuff, and it's uh this is just that image reduced so you can use as a label. Yeah, it's great to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:20

So a variety from type variety illustration of cartoons to yeah, more serious work. Uh the whole dang variety.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:28

So I have two digital questions for you. I know you're you're uh uh a happy, satisfied Luddite. You don't like technology, you don't you don't use um. I'm we're actually here in the living room because you you had trouble setting up the shit. And it's actually a real opportunity because I got to meet you. I'm almost Amish. Do it. You're an Amish by your own admission. So electrical. So there's two questions related to that. The first is you you obviously never use digital enhancements or digital help with your work. You're literally, you're literally drawing the old fashioned way. The old fashioned so there's a there's a brush, there's an easel, there's paint, there's a surface, and your hand lettering, your hand drawing everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

That's that's people have often asked me when you go to do a mural, do you draw everything first?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:18

What I always do is I have a piece of chalk and I give myself very basic spatial relations.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:24

Horizon line, uh, this or that. Yeah. And then I start painting. I don't do a bunch of detailed drawing.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:31

Once again, you're the uh, you know, you're the right brain guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

I guess.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:36

Yeah. Well, once again, you're the opposite of planning. So it's not like you you do a rigorous outline, it's not like you measure every proportion, then you do a rigorous outline and then you fill it in. You're just kind of going as you go, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Many a client, we sit down and we talk about what they want. And I love collaborating. I love to hear their idea, they're gonna live with it. Yeah, I go to the next thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

And so we collaborate and they go, Well, aren't you gonna like draw it up for us? And then I go, Well, if you want, I it ain't necessary, right? Once I know what you want, I'm just gonna do it, and you can watch me. Yeah, you let me know what you think, and that's the way I work. And at first it's a little scary, then when they see it develop, it's all okay, we're in good hands.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:21

I don't know what to say. I just it's just my way. Everyone has their way.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:25

Yeah, that's terrific. So, again, the writers do it a certain way, every creative person has their style. And here's basically once I have a general idea of what I want to do, and I lay out the proportions, then I just start painting. I go for it. And when one section leads to another, and then whatever I'm in the mood for, and it eventually all comes together.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

And you know, there's an occasion where you don't like something you did. Well, the magic of paint, I can wipe it out and redo it.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:49

Same with writing, you just like you know, just edit and go over and tweak it, and then finishing one section automatically. Well, wait a second, I could really now do something else over here I might not have thought of originally. It's an emergent organic thing where it all kind of comes together as it as it comes together, and that makes you comfortable doing it and ultimately improves the final version. So that's my first question, and I already knew the answer to that, given the fact that you're a self-proclaimed Amish person. The other one is well, the other one is you got you got thousands of things, you know. Check this out. You know, we're holding it up, and the reason that I'm holding this stuff up is because it's not been digitized. You don't have uh a uh a gallery or uh online website, not anymore, not anymore. And then my next question is uh just doing that, which is a so it lives beyond your days, b, you've got so much content that might find its place, and C, people would be curious to to see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

Yeah, I I've been told, but I should put it together again. You know, to be honest with you, at this stage of my life, I don't want to be bombarded with work. I really don't have selective. I choose some things I'll do, yeah, some things I won't. Yeah, I I no longer I sold over the city.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:10

What about even hiring an intern at the University of Southern California, and then you know, they could uh build you a vibe code a website and uh just pump your shit up there. I mean, this stuff could be scanned pretty readily, and then and then and it might work even to you know get new business and to keep people into it. I mean, it's a it's a thing for you, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

I I get called every now and then, especially people I've already worked with, some of them 30 years 40 years ago. Are you still available? Okay, great. Yeah, you have relationships. If I go out and put a website up again and all, I'm gonna get a lot more busy than I want to be. I'm 76 years old.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:50

I respect that. I respect that. But I'm just an outsider here coming in, and I would think that uh the opportunity is great to just capture. I mean, you know everything that you've done, and you take pride in it. I'm kind of the same way, I've been there, I've done that, but at the same time, a testament to your work and and an opportunity to share it. I have my more yeah, well, you got it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:10

I show it, I take it to meetings. I know you hang out and look, here it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:13

Yeah, right. What about it just living living in the cloud? Yeah, that would be an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

Oh, everybody tells you my daughter. Everyone tells you the same. My grandson, yeah, 10 years old. Papa, how come you're not on the internet?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:27

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like I said early on, you're not missing that much, but I'm just thinking that uh it lends because it's so visual, it lends itself well to that kind of repurposing, and then more people can enjoy your work. There's uh uh one of the best guitarists on the planet is named Guthrie Gowen. I don't know if you've heard of him. You probably haven't heard of him because he's like you. He's like he hardly does any kind of social media and he doesn't really post videos of himself, and he just plays gigs and enjoys his life and doesn't give a shit. But but I yeah, I I think he's one of the best guitar players ever. I mean, he's phenomenal, this guy. I mean, I my jaw drops watching him play. Yeah, and uh, and he just doesn't care. Uh so I see parallels where you're very gifted and you have a huge portfolio of work, a lot of it very intriguing. Yeah, whatever. I'm too busy doing my art and having a good time to like to mess around with the inner if the with the internets. I don't blame you, is what I'm saying. It's like if Guthrie Gowan would be right here, I'd go, dude, you know, I wish I could see you on Instagram more often. And he would be like, Why?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:41

I can relate.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:42

And he would also be like, I don't care that that that people might not see more. I mean, if you're interested, go see my. I'm gonna be over at the uh chateau playing on Tuesday night. Why don't you get your ass up and see me play?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

You know Pat Donahue. He's one of my Tim and I, yeah, one of our favorite Tim turned me on to him. Yeah, I have an instructional CD of his. Yeah, in my whole life, I'll never learn to play as good as he's a prairie home companion.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:10

He was and he was on my podcast, he's on the episode before you. He's he's wonderful. You should what watch our podcast. I had Pat on.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:19

And how would I see?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:20

You don't know, you don't know because you never have mine. Yeah, it's on YouTube. I'll share the I'll share the link with your daughter and then before you leave, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I've got a conversation just like we're conversing with Pat. And I'd also look and I thank Tim Well for that too. Tim hooked, you gotta talk to Pat.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

Have you ever heard Tim play?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:41

No, I haven't. Wow, he's great too. I'm assuming he's really good.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:45

I mean, he can do the the hard stuff, jazz, yeah, classical.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's into it. He turned me on to a bunch, and it's um, I saw um he encouraged me to me to go with his cousin, Michelle, and we went to go see the Lords of String at Mission Viejo. Oh, and they had a guitar player, Pepino DiAgostino, there. He's another in this circle of great guitar.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:07

I wonder if he's part of the family that's been putting out guitar strings forever, Di Augustino.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:11

Um, I'm not, I I think I asked, I don't think they're related. I don't think they're related. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But um anyway, uh, and then Tim encouraged me to, you know, just reach out to him. And then he did uh he did a CD with a doctor uh who treats people with for music, like music therapy. Uh-huh. And they work together. So that was my in with Papino. So I had Papino on the podcast, and then um, and then Tim goes, why don't you reach out to Lawrence Juber? He was Mom McCartney's guitar player. I had him on I had I had him on the podcast too.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:42

He took me to see.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:44

It's on the same podcast where we're appearing. So you're now with Peppino, Pat, Lawrence, and now you.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

And I just finished reading Paul McCartney's book.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:58

I don't think I could get Paul McCartney. He said, you know, maybe I'll try.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:05

He just put out a book this thick about his life after the Beatles.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:08

And he includes Lawrence Juber. Of course.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:11

Yeah, yeah, that was a big deal. They were tight and they uh they did a lot of great work together. Lawrence plays Strawberry Fields for me on the podcast. Isn't that fun? I'll share that with you too.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:21

And also that guitarist you mentioned before. Papino. Before him, the great Oh, Guthrie Gowan. Please write that down for me before you. I want to check him out.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:32

All right. I'll send you if I send you links by text. Can you uh my daughter will help you with that? Okay. I'm gonna leave all this in this podcast, this chatter, because it illustrates what I've been talking about. You just don't give a shit about digital. And I I'm I deeply, I I deeply admire that because I spend so many hours of my day in this digital bullshit that there's a purity to that where you're just you just like I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:01

And like face to face, like writing letters. Yes, like by hand. Yeah, it's to me everything in just in type is impersonal to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:10

It's just not you and Socrates and why do you think Socrates never wrote anything down? He's just that's like, why would I write this shit down? I can't, I can't when we're arguing with each other. I can't see you, I can't smell you, I can't look you in the eye. And what you're gonna give me a sheet of paper with all your bullshit on it, and then you expect me to what write more bullshit to comment about your bullshit? It's like, let's go out to the town square and argue it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:34

It's all about his place. Yeah, I mean, technology is wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:37

Yeah, I mean, it's useful, don't get me wrong, and I I subsist on it, but uh, we bring up great points, and I do a lot of personal videos on TikTok where I just hold it up and I yell at people. I do these podcasts where I try to make the video and the audio available, and I try to meet people, I meet other writers, I meet artists like you. And for me, there's nothing to compare it to because most people spend most of their time just scrolling and they never meet anyone, they never talk to anyone. And people only show a certain side to them through their writing and through their meme sharing, and it's a real waste. It's like, where is the connection between people? We've we've lost the can look. I'm in your living room kitchen, we got to meet each other and we're sharing with the world, but there's nothing to actually talking to you about your life, there's no substitute to that. You could send me a text and send me pictures. You know, here Mookie, here's a text of my of my menu.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:34

As a former teacher, when I hear of people who get their education on their computer screen at home, I think, okay, you can get information and you know, pass your test, but you're missing out on that human interaction, the debate, what a classroom gives you.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:52

Argue, debate. If something is true, it'll hold up under any rational scrutiny. Yes. And if it's false, it'll collapse under rational scrutiny.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:01

Right. And the converse is also true. The reason we've got so many conspiracy theories and bullshit is because everyone's swimming in this arena where no one's actually looking each other in the eye and like being honest with each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

You can say you can be a bully on the internet.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:15

You can do anything and say anything with impunity because people aren't actually meeting and talking to each other. Yeah, it perpetuates all the worst aspects of human behavior.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:24

And you could come up with the most bizarre things, and and people are gullible enough to go, oh, so that's so Elvis is alive and he's hamburgers in Nebraska.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:34

Right. And adding it was on the internet, and adding to the to the worseness of this is artificial intelligence. It's worser because now the machines are mimicking even what the humans are doing in the internet.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:48

You know, one of the I think leaps and bounds in art has been in in cinema. People like Pixel and Industrial Light and Magic, the ones that do all these marvelous effects. You watch Jurassic Park, those dinosaurs are alive and real and breathing. To me, that is technology wonderful, but it will never replace the human mind and hand that had to come up with the concepts before it got right specialized, and you know, all the tricks that made it come alive. It's wonderful, but you gotta have the human being, the creative end, before it gets. Yeah, you need both.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:30

You need a human to make it and to conceive of it because the foundation of it is intentional and emotional, ultimately. Then whatever tool you need, you need a brush, an easel, a bone, a fragment, a feather, or an AI supercomputer to make it. And then the final recipient is another human, where you you take an idea and then you do whatever with it technologically, but then when it hits the the audience, they're feeling what you felt as a human when you created it. And that that I think is what art is. So use all the technology you want to your point and do whatever it takes to bring that vision to life in whatever form it could or should take. But it's a human feeling something who's communicating that feeling to another human who's feeling it, and then they could feel it together. Otherwise, what's the what's the goddamn point?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:21

An analogy along this same line is in music. In the earlier days, guys got around a microphone and recorded the song. They played it, they sang it with little imperfections. I mean, they have to do multiple takes, but it was done in an honest ability. You played, you sang. Nowadays, you don't even need the band in the same room. It can be auto-tuned, you can be what they call stacking. Yeah. Where we can, if you make a mistake on that one solo, we can pull just that little part out and fix it.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:52

Well, that's making that's an antiseptic.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:54

Now you don't even need musicians anymore because the bots will do the tracks, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:59

There's no soul in that. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 1:24:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:01

I like the old way where the guys actually did it, and what they did in the studio, they could do live.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:07

Yeah, and they're sweating it out. It's not like you pay a thousand dollars for a seat right now to see your favorite band, and then you see them and they're about this big, and then they're big screens. So you're watching a movie of your favorite people playing, but they're not really playing because they're just doing karaoke to the uh to the album that they're pumping through the PA. So you're paying a thousand bucks to listen to the record, and you watch your favorite musicians who are not playing the music on an enormous screen, and they're about this big, yeah, somewhere off in the distance. Why why are you even there? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:49

My wife and I have been to many concerts, uh, and I got comped to a lot through the liquor industry. They'd sponsor Errol Smith, yeah, Peter Franklin, and then we'd get the stage and seats and parking. But I'm we'd see the Rolling Stones six times, my one of my favorite bands. I play a lot of their stuff, and we always spent we didn't do this all the time, they only tour every four or five years back then. We would spend the money to be up close. I don't want to be back there looking at that and watching a monitor. I could stay home and forget the video.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:23

You can watch it on YouTube, even though you don't watch YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:26

Yeah, there'd be no line to the bathroom, and I can have a beer anytime I want.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:30

So we always made a point of be as close up as we can, and we have been up close. That to me is getting the whole experience, right? A real thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:41

Anyway, so in music, there's an analogy there. Nowadays, through technology, you can make any band sound better than they are, make personal singers sound better than they really are. But is that authentic?

SPEAKER_04 1:25:54

No, yeah, it's great technology, but and there's a few things more authentic than climbing up on a ladder and painting the side of a building and uh you know capturing the emotion that way. I I want to thank you for your time and sharing your art and taking us through your life. It was it was a real uh real real real pleasure. And uh what else is in store for Clayton Parker? You're uh I'm you're chilling and you don't want too much more business, but I've got projects ahead of me in San Clemente and in Laguna Nigel.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:28

Okay, and at this Hernandez Hideaway, they have a they want me to redo a cove of murals that I did 20 something years ago. They want it something new.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:37

Great.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:37

So I have projects pending that I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:40

You're gonna keep doing you're still climbing on those ladders and no no no maybe a step ladder. A stepladder.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:45

I won't do I won't do all that big stuff. I sold all my it looked like a fireman's say, right? I sold them all. Okay, I don't want to do that. And another little quick thing that world record mural Vista, I get a call, this was several months ago, some city director asking me if I'd be willing to redo it. It's been all these years. We've had a couple of businesses move in that put in a new utility door in the back. Okay. We need you to patch, but they wanted the whole thing freshened up.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:17

And I well, that's a lot. That's 565 feet by two stories up. Many of the buildings, two stories. That's 5,000, that's like 10,000 square feet. And it goes over at least 10,000 square feet, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:30

And so I I went and walked it and made notes of what needs to be done and all. And my wife says, Listen, give them a you don't want to do it price. Yeah, and I did and goes, we're gonna work on the funding. We they want the state of California, the county of San Diego, the city, yeah, art organizations who will sponsor such things to everybody chip in and pay me to redo.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:55

I'll give you double fist palm.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:57

It's daunting. So I did. You mentioned a ways back of finding a young, you know, talent.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:04

And I did. I finally found this young man. He lives in San Clemente. I looked at his, he came down here and showed me samples, beautiful, careful work. Seemed like just the kind of personality I could get along with. He's not full of himself. He's just a nice young man with talent. And I told him about this pending project. And if he would do all the high stuff and all, I would direct traffic and I'll pay him well. And I will. And so he's all excited.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:30

Wow. So this is this is another element. You're becoming a mentor.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:34

And he'll get so much press. It'll show start this young man. That's terrific. Oh, I'm glad to do it. Right. I gotta tell you one more little story concerning.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:42

You can tell me as many stories as you want.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:44

This one quiet, this one guy, he's a gangbanger, he's a tagger. He admits it. He comes by day after day and he's watching me paint this huge mirror.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:55

Where is this? When is this? This is the Vista one.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:58

200, 40, 4, 5.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:01

He's watching me. He never says a word. Finally, he approaches me. How do you do is this air? Because he does everything with spray cans.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:09

I was gonna ask you about graffiti too, actually. This is a great segue. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:14

He's asking me how I and I'm explaining, no, it's all by hand. It's called Wet on Wet. While the paint's still wet, I blend it so the sky goes from a deeper blue to a lighter.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:23

Yeah, it washes into each other the colors, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:26

He told me, he admitted I'm a tagger. He's with some homeboy thing. And I said, Do you ever do anything other than this stuff? He goes, Yeah. I said, Bring me something next time you come down. He came down a few days later with this white, like a piece of thin board, and on it all in brown spray can was this Indian chief with a full bonnet of feathers and all. And I'm looking at it, and these people showed up, some of the Saldania family who are real prominent in Vista and were represented in the mural. And they see this thing and the kids with me. He's like 19, 18, 19, and they go, Oh, who did this? I said, Well, this young man did. And they go, Oh, is it for sale? And he looks at me, his eyes went wide, he's never sold a piece of artist. And I said, Why, sure. And they go, How much? I said, Oh, I think a hundred dollars. The guy's an up-and-coming artist. They peeled off a hundred bucks and bought this thing. Yeah, and when they left, this badass hug me. Thank you, Mr. Parker. Give me a hug. And I thought, you know, now you some of that money you promise me you'll buy art supplies. At least some of it. Don't spend it all on bag of grass or crap. Anyway, so that was a great moment. And when they had the big ceremonies when it was all done, they had this whole huckaloo. I see him out there. I'm up on a stand. I see him way in the back. And they wanted, I had told this story to one of the newspaper people. They said, Can we interview him? We'd love to interview. Or it was Channel 9, KUSI. And I asked him, and he says, Heck no, his boys would never want him to go out and talk about nothing.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:03

You know what I mean? They're behind the scenes. But it was a great moment.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:07

That is so but but it also illustrates everything we've been talking about. That's a big part of success as an artist is figuring out and really accepting and understanding that your stuff has value. And then when you see it in action, when you actually do something and people not only praise you for it, but give you coin, that is the ultimate positive reinforcement, and it's the momentum you need to keep going and to do it. And this guy's a gangbanger, he's running around, he does the graffiti spray painting, because that fits the character, that's the identity. But behind it is genuine talent. And it's untapped, it's untapped talent. You tapped into it, you asked for a sample, you sold his sample, and arguably for the first time in this kid's life, he realized that his identity goes potentially beyond the dead end that he's in.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:58

You'd like to, I want to think that maybe that little incident encouraged him to pursue something more than just writing the silly gang stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:07

Right. Right. That's a terrific story. Yeah. So there's potential, there's a spark that's there.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:13

Badass never tells you hugs me.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:14

Yes. What do you think of some of the graffiti? Because that's like that's inner city urban mural, mural work. Some of it is a blotch. I mean, I lived in New York City for years. A lot of it is an eyesore, it's just garbage. Some of the subways and what got it. Garbage, but some of it is actually art, some of it is amazing. Like Spider-Man into the multiverse had uh that the use of graffiti as uh as a real artistic vehicle.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:42

Even if it's just their title, their gang tag, yeah, whatever. But I have seen some where the lettering and the layout and the color choices and how clean the phenomenal, phenomenal. It obviously has a good sense of design.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:57

Yes, to help.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:58

It's gifted, and he's doing it at three in the morning, so no one sees it.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:02

And it's mural size, it's huge. So they they understand proportion, they understand layout, yes, they understand the visuals, the color and trends, yeah. All that stuff. So this guy could be a designer, but you know, you just circumstance. It's like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:18

But I agree with you, some of that stuff is shows talent underneath it all.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:22

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:23

I have never personally had graffiti ruin any of my murals, and I've done some in parts of LA that are bad country. I've had I've looked behind me and they're the homeboys, they don't say a word, they're just watching. Yeah, and as long as what I'm painting is not offensive to them, yeah, they they value it, especially Mexico and Mexicans.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:42

Because in Mexico, no, there's an enormous mural culture and it's built into the society.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:49

Second Orozco, and Rivera, yeah, Diego Rivera, Frida Kahlo's guy. I used to teach these things and show them. And in in Mexico, they would have what they call a trumbler, an earthquake. They would have a team of people removing the mural brick by brick to relocate it somewhere safe. In that in this country, they'd tear that sucker down, have a 7-Eleven up in Melbourne.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:11

Oh, they don't give a shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:12

They don't give a shit. Yeah, Mexico cherishes their mural heritage. Yes. So these boys, it's in their system, and so they're watching me, and I've never had anybody tag my mural.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:22

Oh, very disrespectful. Yeah, and they won't do it because the stuff's adding value, and it's really in a style to your point that's ethnically ingrained in their DNA to respect that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:35

I earned, I earned an extra $5,000 when I did the Vista World Record mural. Just to put in the bank, in the event of graffiti or damage, call me and you got a fund to pay me to repair it. One day I get a call, you've been hit with graffiti. I came down immediately. They were they loved this. Somebody had written their little gang thing on a piece of paper and taped it on my mural so they wouldn't hurt the paint.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:03

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:03

And I almost wanted to write a thank you on a piece of paper, but even just take a picture of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:08

That's classic. And you know that was wonderful. Yeah, it's almost like you could do a mural in the neighborhood where you'd where you represent that. You you have like a piece of paper that you do photorealistically, and on that is like maybe even an up, like a little area where they could tag it.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:23

Showed a lot of respect.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:24

Yeah, a ton of respect. That they didn't write on the wall. That is almost inconceivable and it's counterintuitive compared to what people would think because graffiti, by nature, especially gang graffiti, it marks the territory and it's designed to be violated and intrusive.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:39

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:39

And and they couldn't do it for you. And when they did do it, they did it with a little a piece of paper and taped it on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:47

And they all got a kick when I came down. Where is it? Where is it? And they showed me everybody's laughing because I'm I'm all worried.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:52

Right. Super, super fun. Super fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:56

God, I've met such a wide variety from homeboys to Johnny Carson to to uh what's his face? The the worm, uh the great basketball oh uh Rodman, Dennis Rodman, with stuff hooking through every orifice of his face. Yeah, I'm up on a ladder in Huntington Beach doing this mural, and he's there and it's daytime. He's with a couple of friends and they're hanging out, and he comes over and he's watching me, and I swear to you, I'm up on a ladder and I look and we're we're head to head. Yeah, he's like seven foot.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:27

I was actually a bartender in the 90s in Chicago, and I served him and and Carmen Electra were at my bar. I gave him raspberry, raspberry uh kamikaze, you know. I'm a big guy, I'm 6'2. And I was just looking, he's just a huge rack of meat. His shoulders are like I'm I'm big again, but he's literally like yes, you don't realize that they're they're they're tanks, they're machines, and he's got stuff hooking through the nose mouth. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:56

He was real nice to me. And the owner too, yeah. The owner of this place. I said, No, he doesn't seem so bad. You hear all these stories, and they said, Well, this is daytime. Catch him at night. Come back and catch him when he's got a load on.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:09

He'll take the fire extinguisher off the wall and spray the room.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:12

Yeah, yeah. He told me, like, uh, you know, I gave him several rounds of drinks. He goes, He's like, How much? And I go, No, Dennis, it's don't worry about it. So he he reaches into his leather jacket and it's like a meteorite. It was this sweaty ball of money. And then he places it on the bar top and it and it wouldn't like collapse. It was just all gelled together. So I threw it in my tip jar and it was almost like an artifact. And then after the shift, I'm counting out. I go, how much did Dennis leave me? And I'm trying to extract the dollar bills, and it was like $12. Oh wow. I should have just kept it as my Dennis Rodman uh artifact. That's funny. That's really funny. So thanks, Clayton. That's such a variety of things. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you got endless stories. We could even do a part two when you feel like, and uh and we could uh think of other stories that you'd like and we could uh resume.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:07

I've worked in a lot in Vegas, and you'll meet people from all over the world in Las Vegas. They come from everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:12

Yeah, give me a quick Vegas story before we before we cash our chips.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:17

I'm doing the front desk of the Riviera Hotel. I mean a 200-foot long mural. Yeah, the people who come to the river, you book in, you go to the counter, long, long counter, and you book in the hotel. Well, I'm behind the counter painting this mural of the French and Italian Riviera. And I've done a lot of homework. I went to travel agents, said I'm planning to go to the Riviera. Oh, by boat or by plane? I said, I'm not sure. Either one. They load me up with brochures, which feature some of the best photography money can buy.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:47

Oh, absolutely. Of Capri and everything, Monaco. All of it, all of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:53

So I'm using these as models and I'm composing it. And my hair was darker and fuzzy. And I swear to you. All day long. It's excuse me, sir. There's they see in the back of me, I'm painting. They're at the counter. Don't want to bother you, but my wife loves your show. They thought I was Bob Ross. The guy on TV paints a happy little tree.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:15

The number one meme now. You're not on social media, but Bob Ross is all over. He's got an AI resurgence with Bob Ross painting all sorts of crazy things.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:24

He does real well with what he does. Yeah. He has his thing. Oh no, yeah, he had his thing. And about after about, I mean, I couldn't stop every time and go, thank God.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:31

That's because you had the Bob Ross afro. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:34

And I'm painting a picture. So they think it's gotta be gotta be him. And after about the fourth time, I can't stop and explain. I just go, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:44

Why? I mean, let them be satisfied that they actually uh they they thought it's you.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:50

Brilliant move on Bob Ross's part, business-wise. That show he did for years for free. He did not charge the network on dime. What he made his money on was his Bob Ross kits on how to paint, yeah, his Bob Ross brushes, all his merchandise. He made a fortune, but he did the show for free, so they loved him.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:11

Yeah, they got the top. He understood the power of swag.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:14

Honest to goodness, and he made a lot of money, good for him. Yeah, and that's why he's so popular and ran so long, he cost them nothing.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:24

You know, imagine how thrilled the producer was.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:26

Very, very smart. Very, very smart. It's like a variation of George Lucas, who uh got the funding for Star Wars, and they just let him have all the merchandising because they thought it was a piece of shit and would crash anyway. Yes, and something like what? Is it like 40 billion dollars later? They're still buying the Star Wars Lego and toys and Gene Simmons of KISS.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:47

Yeah, I took my own.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:48

He understood that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:49

He's he talks about the contract there served, and there was one line there about merchandising, and he said he crossed that out, said, No, no, we want to keep that. He said, I didn't even know you could do that, but he did, and look what it led to KISS merchandise, everything from coffins to oh absolutely through the roof, rubbers and everything, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:09

Yeah, there are a bunch of you know, New York guys in kabuki math. Yeah, I don't I'm not even quite sure if they could play when they first started. Oh my god, they didn't care. They didn't care. How many hours a day does Gene Simmons practice the bass guitar? I think about as many hours as I do, right, right. They had their thing, and then this goes back to what you were saying that from throughout this entire conversation, have your thing, have your point of view, yes, have your own style and go for it and be true to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:41

Yeah, it's important, I think. Yes, and you hear this said by people all the time. I don't know how well it gets through, but it's important to and to have perseverance. We all will get rejected on something. A guy writes a book and it can't get anyone to publish it. You know, he can't buy my paintings, I can't sell, get a demo to a record label to get us. You've got to persevere. You can't just take the rejections and go, well, the heck with it. Many people do. But if you have the goods to begin with, and you persevere, good things to me. I tell this to kids great things happen right on the other side of that fear. Yeah, you're scared, it's they're nice, you know. I can I, I don't know. But if you would give it the go, great things can come of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:29

I think so. There's no guarantees, but the opposite is also true that if you don't go for it, it'll never happen for sure. Yeah, you just have to keep keep gunning it. One of my favorite quotes, and I I've said it before, and I'm gonna say it a thousand times more. Frank Zappa, you know, the musician, Frank Zappa. He goes, I have he goes, I have two pieces of advice. And he has that smarmy voice that he does a lot of the time. He goes, My first piece of advice is don't stop. And my second piece of advice is keep going.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:02

And then when you get there, it's still gonna be difficult.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:06

That that's to me for young artists, medium-tier artists. Yes, just if you have the fire burning in you, then just don't give a shit what people say. Just keep keep cranking it, just keep cranking it. And I truly believe that no no guarantees, but you get at least the satisfaction of being able to do it with impunity and boldness. And if you love doing what you do, then it's intrinsically rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:31

I tell students, especially the rough kids, kids that are raising themselves, some of them, believe me, you're not responsible for the world you're born into. Daddy's jail, mommy, don't care. You know, you're I'm a poor boy, I'm black, I'm whatever. I said, you're not responsible for those conditions, but you're the only one responsible for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:53

So quit telling me how I man, I can't nobody I didn't have indoor plumbing, man, for three and a half years.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:59

You had you had your van stolen.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:01

Yeah, I had I had no I had no support, no financial nothing. I started for nothing, and I still have most of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:12

Right, right. But the point is, and you still almost have the afro, right? And they got way more hair than me from the from no hair fame.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:20

All my buddies that are bald now, I tell them, guys, I died at gray, so you wouldn't have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:24

You still don't feel bad, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:26

But it's true what I said about you're the only one responsible for the rest of your life. Don't rely on alibis and excuses. Get out there. If it means join the military or the job corps, trade school, there's a million ways you can pick yourself up. There really is if you have the gumption to go after it. Learn to be a mechanic, learn something that you can be useful.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:47

Yes, be useful. And be in the the magic is if you can be actually be useful as an artist. Well, yes, that's the magic. The harder road than the magic, the magic super sauce to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:57

It's really not for everybody, yeah. Because it's not, it's not a like you go to law school, you can be a lawyer, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:45:03

Accountant, you know, go to a but an artist, it's whether you're a writer, a painter, a musician, whatever, fashion design, it's all so iffy, it's all depends on how well you all if you if you if you die having any kind of structure or die lack of structure, it's all about the structure, right? So figure it out. If you're comfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty and waking up the next morning and really having no idea if this is gonna work, if you're comfortable with that or at least can tolerate it, then you have a possibility as an artist. But if you want security and predictability, then you know, keep the day job, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:46

I'm a living example of you can get there from here even if you have no resources, nothing. I had nothing, man. Yeah, and like I say, I was homeless before it was popular, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:45:57

Before I was cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:58

I wanted to get through college and I did. I wanted to become a teacher. Yeah, you know why I wanted to be a teacher? Not because I had a great zeal for teaching. Well, I did develop that. I like the work here. I'm a surfer. Yeah, summer's off, Christmas, Easter, yeah, man. That's sign me up.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:14

Right. I'll take that every and if you could teach art, even better.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:17

Yeah, yeah. So I did ski and choice.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:21

You've taught you've taught us, you've taught me. Thank you, thank you, Clayton. And you know what? At first I thought that you'd be at a disadvantage just listening to us because I wanted to share like all your stuff. But um, I think even the most meaningful parts of our conversation has been the wisdom that you entail. I mean, your art is great and commenting on it, but you have some great great tidbits to offer everybody in terms of the life you've lived and and the success you had just believing in yourself and just doing it. It's very, very, very inspirational. I think the book would be would be interesting. It'll have and valuable. And was it's giving again. It's giving again. When when are you gonna finish the book?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:00

What my what I'm doing is uh I'm writing it on long hand, number one. That's of course you are. Friends, I have an author friend who says, Clayton, on the computer, they'll even correct your grammar.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:10

Yeah, well, you don't like that shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:12

I'm doing it like Mark Twain. I'm writing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:14

And and uh so uh what I'm doing, once I have a manuscript finished, I'm going to speak it. I have a recording system, then I'm going to orally do the whole book orally, and then take it and get help with editing and see if anybody's interested in publishing it, or do I self-publish it?

SPEAKER_04 1:47:33

Yeah, and you can even self-publish it, no problem. That way you don't have to wait for anyone to give you an okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:39

And I have help in that department. Like I say, one of my friends, I've read her books, she's a wonderful author, been very helpful to me. And again, I become a bit of a pest, just like with Tim and the guitarist. I'd call her up now and then with whatever, you know, I'm stuck on something, and she keeps referring me to technology, and you don't have to do it that way. You can do this.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:58

Anyway, I'm gonna finish it, by God. I'll finish it.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:01

Well, I have a promise to you. Once you finish, we can have a launch party and we do another one of these and talk about the book. I think it'll be good, that'll be great.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:10

I think I have some helpful things to say and some humor thrown in.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:13

All right, and maybe even this podcast will inspire you because you could watch and listen to this and then uh take it to the next level for your own manifesto. All right, ladies and gentlemen, Clayton Parker, muralist, artist, bon vivant, recontour. Thank you for making time. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:35

Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:35

And then uh check us out. If you're on audio, check out the video. If you're on video, it's also on audio. We've got the links in the description below. And I I usually refer people to a website or to a place to follow you or track you. How can people get in touch with you if they want to hire you or if they wanna if they want to um tag your mural? I I think a just you're a word of mouth guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:06

Yeah, just it's all been referred to.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:08

Contact me, folks, if you want, if you want to hire Clayton. I'll be I'll be your your temporary agent. And I give a generous finder's fee. Okay, folks. So if you're listening to the No Hair All Hard Podcast and you want Clayton to maybe do something for you, uh contact me through the website or through the podcast, and I'll get it, get it to Clayton as his next next assignment. Thanks. Like, comment, subscribe, share, and check out Clayton's stuff. He is online third party. You've got YouTube videos interviewing you. The networks covered you when you did the mural. The Guinness Book of World Records gave it the accolade as the biggest one. Yeah, longest. You're the wiener there. So there's a bunch of stuff on you online. I looked you up and got to know you a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:58

Well, I'm surprised how you got it. Maybe my daughter show me.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:01

Yeah, have your daughter show you, Mr. Luddite. You actually do exist. You do exist out there, even if you don't give a shit. They they give a shit more about you than you do about them, which is actually a great place to be instead of the other way around. Thank you, Leighton. You're welcome. My pleasure. Yay.