Jesse Krakow Returns to Riff on What We Inherit and What We Leave Behind

Back in March, Jesse Krakow told Mookie about the manic creative frenzy driving his music, two EPs a week, on pace for over a hundred releases this year. This time on the 109th episode of No Hair All Heart, that same frenzy becomes the entry point into something bigger: what it means to create obsessively while standing between two generations, the parent who shaped you and the kids who are watching you do it.

Jesse and Mookie both grew up under towering, intimidating fathers, though from opposite ends of the emotional spectrum. Jesse's dad, Howie, a retired advertising creative director turned author, is by every account brilliant, silly, and endlessly generous, the kind of shadow that inspires as much as it looms. Mookie's father, a Holocaust survivor who took on the characteristics of his oppressors, cast a much darker one. From those two very different starting points, they land on the same real question every creative parent eventually asks: how do you pass down the fire without burning the house down? Jesse talks candidly about his fear of becoming "the great Santini" to his own musician sons, and Mookie brings in a David Gilmour guitar-lesson meme and Wolfgang Van Halen as two very different answers to the same problem.

The conversation moves the way real friendships do, unscripted and effervescently all over the place, including a phone call from Jesse's kid's summer camp. Along the way they geek out on their Captain Beefheart epiphany, the surprising sonic overlap between Zappa and ZZ Top, and Mookie's own origin story discovering the joy of Scandinavian black metal on a jog through Prospect Park. And they circle back to where their last convo left off: Rick Rubin's idea that the audience comes last, and a bigger, newer thought about what it means to create in the age of AI, where everything an independent artist makes becomes a permanent, remembered piece of something larger. 

For anyone building something as a creator, a father, or a son, this episode makes the case that legacy goes beyond who's watching, and includes what you leave behind and who's carrying it forward.

The Guest

Jesse Krakow is a prolific indie musician, songwriter, and producer known for bands including Time of Orchids and his work with The Shaggs revival project. 

More from Jesse Krakow: https://jessekrakow.bandcamp.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome back to air on the heart podcast. And I'm your still very well host, Mookie Spitz. The one with all the heart. Coming back on the pod after a few months is the one, the only Jesse Krakow. Welcome aboard, Jesse. Hey Mookie, thanks for having me again. I appreciate it. It's my pleasure. You're a busy guy. Back in March, we talked about all of your projects. You're cranking out, what is it, a couple EPs a week in this manic, manic frenzy, this tsunami of super cool content. You're an indie style musician, songwriter, performer, industry guru. For folks on board for the first time.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Tell us a little bit about what's cooking. Oh man, well, you know, uh, it's been it's been quite a busy summer, and I got some cool, a lot of cool stuff going on. As you said, um well, this year, I kind of realized with with with the shifting of how uh musicians put out albums or content, as the younger people say, uh it's uh people don't listen to music or take in, you know, content like they used to. The mediums have changed. So the idea of putting out uh you know, an album every year somehow became you know, put out an EP every couple months, and then it became put out a new single every month. So I decided the guy that I am, I'm gonna put out a new EP, uh which for me would be I call them maxi singles, because I would take three short songs and sort of combine them into one, kind of like the old casingle days that I grew up on, and I would do one a week. But um so that would have been what 52 52 a year. I decided to double that. So I'm putting out about a hundred and two EPs this year, basically two a week.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Wow, and where where can people find these? So people are listening. This guy, Jesse, is a madman. He's cranking out cool content. Where can people go to find?

SPEAKER_03 2:19

That's yeah, thank you. That's Jesse Krakow, J-E-S-S-E, K-R-A-K-O-W at bandcamp.com.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

At Bandcamp, we'll put the link in description below.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yeah, so that's um, but you know, that's uh that isn't work though for me. That's and that's not my actual writing or my music. That's just like creating for creative sake. It's just fun to do, almost like a challenge to myself. Um in and and a lot of them are really experimental. Some of the albums are actually I guess the shortest one is 12 seconds. Um and then the longest one's about 20 minutes. But uh I've taken that and I I I guess I I I I guess starting last year, I sort of had this epiphany. Um, I released a triple album called Bastards of Prague. And it was three and a half hours, it was 84 songs. Um, and it had about a hundred pages of liner notes where I talked about uh what bands and acts and artists and things I considered to be progressive. Um it also had a chapter from a book that I'm writing and all sorts of shit because I realized I just wanna I want to overwhelm people with with with stuff. That's just that's that's that that's how I that's what I can offer. So um I started uh realizing that a lot of that I find things that I want to write about are stupid and or offensive to some. Whether it's about sex or race or religion. Um and I was like, you know what, I want to just double down because why not? So I have a four-part series. It's called All American Asshole. And um it's uh the first part uh this hopefully should be ready in a couple a couple of months, but uh All American Asshole, it's just like kind of mean, kind of offensive pop songs. And then there's uh part two is called Beefy Bearded Boy, which is much more he's calling right now.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

You just your your beefy bearded boy just beefy boy, yeah. Like, hey, thanks for the thanks for the mention, Jesse.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Beefy bearded boy is much more like progressive rock and odd type signatures and weirdness. Uh then part three is called Clumpy Clown Catcher, which is uh very much uh the weirdest one. It there's no form to it, it's just uh smorgashforg of oddness. And then part four is called Daddy Doo-doo, and that's just like silly pop songs. So I think what I've tried to realize, Mookie, over the over the last couple years is you know, uh we talk about finding our voice, but for me it's more about just like finding my aesthetic. And it's like I I gotta just I think oh my god, what the fuck is that? Hold on one second.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Now it's your aesthetic. Hello. Yes, uh yes. Yes. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Sorry about that, that was my son's camp. It wasn't band camp, it was your it was not band camp, sorry, he didn't sign he didn't sign a waiver.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Um you know what you usually I I edit out stuff like that in podcasts, and I think I'm just gonna leave that in because it fits the motif of exactly what you've just been talking about, which is the lived experience of being uh a creator and just letting it out there.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

And being a dad. And being a dad.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Being a dad. You know what? You know what you remind me of, Jesse? Is uh on the one hand, you're like a character from David Foster Wallace's infinite Jess. Okay. I don't know if you you remember it was a a ginormous book. Oh, I I read it, yeah. Oh, okay. Then you you fit right in there, which is it was an expose of these prolific writers, creators. In that case, it was a filmmaker. And this guy just cranked out in all these different ways across different modalities and topics, and a lot of zany things that came to his mind and experimenting, expressing himself, not really giving a shit, and just letting it out there until he created a video that literally hypnotized every viewer who started to see it. So no one even knew what the video was because everyone who saw it literally went into a coma watching it. So that's like a central theme of the book. And you're you're a creator like that. You're just uh you remind me of of the father of the tennis star who uh just creates and creates and creates and goes for it.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

So that in that the m okay, so that video was that when the mom was saying, I'm so sorry. Was that like no?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

The video is of uh a young, fairly attractive woman going through uh turnstile in a city.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Oh okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

All you see is her entering the turnstile, and the camera kind of follows her. Yeah, and that's as far as people have gotten before they're unable to tell you what the rest of it is because they've they've passed out, they've gone into another place.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

You know, I I I read that book twenty-five years ago. Um my dad had it and he he uh my dad's I guess we could start talking about him whenever you want to. He he bought the book and he loved having it on his shelf. Sure, it's just a home. It's like 900 something pages. It's got, you know, I I I have such admiration for David Foster Wallace, even though a lot of what he did I find so fucking pretentious, which she would even admit to, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

You're not the book is pretentious, it has probably more footnotes than actual text. The footnotes have footnotes. I was there for a reading at Barbara's Books in Chicago. Okay. He did the book tour, and it was a surprising best seller.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Which uh purported not so much to the content itself, but he had a a really good agent and a really good PR company behind him. And uh and he gave a reading. And he he was quite an asshole, I thought. I I was about seven, eight hundred pages into the book, and after meeting him, I had trouble finishing the book because there was such dissonance between the expansive, indulgent genius of that book and the person that I just met and loathed. What did you loathe about him? Uh, well, specifically, I came up for a signing and I bought three copies because I wanted one for myself and one for a couple good friends. And I told him, I go, Hey, uh, you're you remind me of that ad with Eddie Van Halen and John McEnroe, and they swap guitars for tennis rackets. And it really is evocative of genius and how it can cross over. And your book reminds me of that because you use tennis as a metaphor.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

And and it's about genius and indulgence and addiction morph together. And I I really got a lot out of it. And he looked at me and goes, Who do you want me to sign this for?

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

So that was just my personal interaction with him, and while he was reading, he was just a prick. To your point, a pretentious prick.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

But you know we we've gone on a tangent of hating on Dave, David Foster Wallace. But um, but anyway, in the book, the uh the the dad of the tennis star is a lot like you, Jesse. Okay, yeah. I think one of these days you're gonna put out an EP that's gonna hypnotize everybody.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Well, you know, I'm I'm I'm trying. You know, I I I I I wanna over I think right now, I I um uh you know, I I always wanted to be uh I always wanted to be, you know, John Lennon, but then I realized that I couldn't sing like John Lennon or write something that was as you know David Foster Wallace wanted to be Thomas Pinch and don't feel bad.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Right. Yeah, I I probably wanted to be him too. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

I I I I think when I when I when I discovered people like I mean well, David Lee Roth, but Frank Zappa, Les Claypool, people that were undeniably awesome, but you know lacking in in certain ways. They were so specific in one thing they did. That just that just opened a world to me. So um, I know that what I do, the music that I make or the ideas that I have, they're not universal, but to me, they contain a universe. And you know, I have lots of friends who are they have their own universes of creativity that they tap into that I like to explore in theirs, they explore in mine, and that's kind of what gets me off.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

It's relatable to me too. I I froth as well. I write plays, screenplays, books, I post on Substack every day. Wow, and and people get either an essay, uh, they get mooky POV videos where I'm ranting from my kitchen. I'm working on the sequel to my novel. I got another spin-off. It's relatable to me what you're doing because uh I overshare as well. Right. And I'm just spewing. I got my five podcast shows and and uh all this juggling with trying to keep the lights on.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

I yeah, I think oversharing, honestly, I think it's such a great quality.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

It's underappreciated and it's frowned upon, and it could be self-destructive to a brand, a brand identity for an artist, because people don't know what the hell to make of stuff, and people, to your point, are very specific in their own particular tastes. But I think if you throw enough shit out there, they get used to you as being the guy who's throwing a ton of shit out there. It could be good, it becomes its own brand.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

You know, it reminds me of, in terms of throwing shit out there, it reminds me of something that Gene Wilder said. He was comparing Woody Allen and Mel Brooks, and he was saying how uh um the style the difference would be that Woody uh uh Allen basically takes a joke and puts it on a dartboard and very meticulously uh throws a dartboard hits a bullseye. He said, and that's you just remember these moments of perfection. He says Mel Brooks throws a zillion darts and sees what sticks. It's like, you know, I like I like those both, but right now I'm like fuck it, just see what happens, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

I've listened to a lot of your stuff, and I think you do both, which is you're you're hurling stuff out there, you have weird stuff where you just kind of stare at the camera and make sounds, and then you've got other stuff which is melodic and like a super cool song and could be a hit if the industry would just pay attention.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Well, you know, I I think uh thank you. I mean, I try to work on I've tried to work on these things. You're diverse, you're diverse. I you know, I yeah, not intentionally. Um I uh you know, I'm so inspired by I don't know. I I I I could always talk about I could talk about my heroes forever. I'm sure you could talk about your heroes forever, too. Um Captain Beefheart is you know a big, big hero of mine. Same here.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Oh, awesome, cool. Yeah. Absolutely. And uh the Zappa crossover. Sure. Phenomenal. Hot Rats. Oh, yeah, Mr.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Green Jeans. Mr. Green Jeans, really really pimp. Beef art beef art was uh complimented this this a woman uh the interviewer set up was complimenting his his words and his art and everything. And uh she said, How do you do it? And he goes, I'm just combing my hair. That's like I just what a what a what a great way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

I want to give an homage to the captain too, because late in life here I've got into symphonic Norwegian black metal. Fuck yeah. I mean, I love that shit. It's like it's dopamine deprived. I get the uh the double bass drums booming, the metallica guitars, and you get the cookie monster vocals, which goes all the way back to the captain, too. And gruff and it just comes right out. Yeah, yeah. And uh, and I think he just influenced more folks than more folks acknowledge or understand.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

He was on he was on a different plane. Well, that's so cool that you're in the the black metal, yeah. I mean, it's uh it's really cool. It's it's wild to see how certain black metal or extreme metal, you know, uh with all the branches of metal, how they have become popular um and respected.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

They're they're good. They're good. My my my black metal story is kind of interesting if we can go out of that mini tangent. I was really good friends for many years with an Iraqi guy. We used to joke that I'm Jewish and he's Muslim, I'm tall, he's short, I'm fit, he's fat, and he was literally half my age. And he grew up in Baghdad listening to Dimu Borgir, In Flames, within Temptation, a lot of these Scandinavian-style black metal bands, which I had really no interaction with.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

And for years I got sick of music because we grew up with the classic metal, the Van Halen's, the Z Z Tops, and really the industry stadium acts. And I got bored with a lot of that stuff, and and it went fallow for me. And I played guitar, so a lot of the music that I listened to was just shredding and stuff, which became a great, almost mechanical exercise for me. So inside I was hungry for something new and fresh. So Faisal started taking me to concerts in New York, which in New York, Manhattan, is the place for concerts, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

And I saw these bands live. And when I first saw them, it was like going to a baseball game. I'm not really into the sport, but it's the pomp and circumstance and pageantry of seeing something live, seeing fans engaged with something and being participatory, albeit in that observer kind of way. And it seemed like a wall of noise to me. It didn't, it didn't quite connect. And then I'm giving it a shot and I'm listening, and I remember doing a jog through Prospect Park in Brooklyn when I lived there. And I'm on a three, four-mile jog around the park, and I pop in Dimu Bourgier's Ionian into my headset, and all of a sudden, that epiphany happens. I got it.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

And it all crystallizes if there's a little impurity in a liquid, and it suddenly forms this beautiful crystal in my bald head, and I got it. It all came together, and then I fell in love with the entire genre. And Dimu Bardier's Ionian remains like in my top five albums of all time. It's just unbelievable. And it rejuvenated and energized my enthusiasm for music overall because it was a wide open new genre that I got to explore new bands and new music. And it it is that dopamine booster shot. And now I listen to classic rock, the stuff we grew up with, and I'm like, this is boring.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

It's like when you're doing meth, you can't have a diet coke and get off on that.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

No, can you? Well, I yeah, you said a lot of stuff, and and and I I like the way that you uh you you sort of illustrate how one band can be the you know the gateway. Right. Because to bring it back to beef art, I mean, I had the exact the exact experience with Trout Mess Replica, as I would imagine a lot of people did. I mean, it's the kind of thing where that's a that's a double album, and when you hear it for the first time I had it.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

I owned it. Yeah, I owned it. He's standing there with the fish head on, and it's and it's this day low radioactive cover. It yeah, yeah, it stands up your eyes looking at that cover.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

And it hurts your ear for a long time, it can hurt your ears until I remember like I had to I remember I had it because I got it because Frank, because it was associated with Appa. And then I would listen to like three songs a day for like a week to be like, wait, I know there's something here. And then I heard El A Guru, the song El Garoo, and like I was like, oh wait, it something clicked, and it was like then I got deeper and deeper. It's like oh, I got it.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Just kind of like you said, you're like, I get it, and then yeah, and then yeah, your brain aligns to it, and all of a sudden it's like a noise-to-signal kind of resolution where you tune into the proper frequency, and then what began is just a wall of sound and dissonance. The individual instruments and components of it start to differentiate. You feel the intent of the creator in a way that the wall of sound precluded you from experiencing, and then all of a sudden, it like you say, it's a gateway, the door opens into this whole new sensibility, and then it erupts within you that it's a it's an undiscovered country of new creative possibility, and as a musician or a writer, you just want to leap right in there, and then you can't wait to ingest all the other content that this creator has released to the world because now it's been translated for you. It's as if you learned a new language, yeah, and you just want to go to the country and chit chat with everybody.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

So, you know, for me as a in terms of being a musician and then as a teacher, I kind of traveled this this weird path that kind of brought me back to classic rock in in some weird way, and I'll explain. Um I I got in the in the 90s, late 90s, I just got so sick of fucking blues rock guitar and jam ends, I just hated all that shit. So I got so knee-deep into black metal, experimental stuff, avant-garde stuff, free jazz, uh modern classical. But then, and I would say, man, for like Jesus Christ, for at least 10 years, I didn't listen to anything commercial. I was, I was, I guess I was kind of a snob, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Or just burned out, just burned out.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Or just burned out, yeah, yeah, yeah. How many times can you listen to Hotel California? You cannot, yeah. But you know, so it got to the sense where you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't want to just play, you know, a blues rock, you know. That just sounded like garbage. I'd much rather hear, you know, just pure dissonance, but almost distance for dissonance sake. But then when I needed a job uh and I was sort of teaching, um uh I I remember I had students who one one kid brought in, they they were working on Daised and Confused, and I hadn't heard Daisy Confused in almost 20 years. And I was like, Oh right, oh shit, that's really like I forgot. Led Zeppelin, you know, the first two Led Zeppelin albums. That I love that shit. And it's like, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Going back to the Yardbirds, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, even though the Yardbirds played it, and Jimmy played it, and then transposed the new version with Zeppelin, which became the version of the song.

SPEAKER_03 23:52

So I guess the idea was of saying how many times can you listen to Hotel California? And and granted some of you know ZZ Top and all that stuff can can sound very passe and and white, but the good stuff holds up.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

I love Z Z Top. That's a great example. And talking about Zappa, that Ranja kind of, you know, sleazy kind of kind of tone from Billy Gibbons, it's very similar to Zappa's Z tone. Like, listen to Zuda Lures and compare Zuda Lures to Trace Amigos.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

The Torture Never Stops, having the vocal, but you're right there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

It's like Finder Finder. Wow. And Lagrange. Uh, you'd think that they're in different musical universes, but that what Zappa called cheapness is an undertone throughout Billy Gibbons stuff, too.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a definitely yeah, right, never thought about that. Having the having that deep vocal right up on the microphone.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Flies all green and bosy.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Yeah. I love that. With fretless guitar. Um tune to B, like low B. Is that it? Wow. So you're a guitar. Ah, I didn't realize how much of a guitar player you were. That's awesome. Yeah. Um, so you know, uh uh. Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm doing a lot of music stuff that's that's really exciting. Um but I did it's something that we hadn't talked about before, which is which is a cool thing to talk about, which is something you and I have in common, is my dad. Howie! It's my dad, Howie. Uh my dad, Howie, is a man of uh many, many talents and innumerable, innumerable gifts. Um and since he's retired from advertising, he was a he was a creative director and a and a copywriter and idea guru, but he's been writing books, and he has some amazing books out. My favorite one, it's called Howbywood, which is uh which is about him the true tales of survival in the treacherous jungles of Hollywood and advertising, which is pretty pretty fabulous. There's some amazing stories.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Howie would come out because uh I've emailed with him and and chit-chatted. This one he was an early subscriber to the Mookie Multiverse on Substack, so thank you for that, Howie, too.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

This one is from 2023.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

This is so it's relatively new. He he's demure, he's he's not someone who's like throwing his book in your face, which is what I'll I'll I'll email everyone. I go, here's my new book. And then and how he how he'll write a book, and then I find out from his his super creative son that how he wrote this book.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

You know, I I I think that you know the promotional stuff doesn't interest him at all. He's not doing it to make money. Of course, he's he's doing it because because I'm gonna get this book.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Is it on Amazon?

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Yeah, it's on Amazon. Um, but but he but link in the description below, folks. His latest one is the one that really touches me the most. Um it's called Kin, My Family, Warts and All, especially the warts, which is uh it's an amazing thing. It's about it's about his family, it's about his mom, his dad, um, his his uh grandpa grandpa uh Jacob Krakow who who you know escaped Poland, turn of the century.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

You know, he got out when getting out was a smart thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Yeah, and you know, this is a dumb and he was a democratic socialist in the Bronx.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Of course he was.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Of course. But um, and it's it's an amazing thing because I think about families that have you know family trees, you know, and and I and I think we can learn, I'm sure you can learn a lot from a family tree, but my dad's point is like you're just that's just like numbers. You don't learn shit. You don't learn what a chart. That's just a chart. Yeah, so this is like really and my dad is hilarious. He's as I'm as you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Oh, he's funny as hell. I even I even transcribed the conversation your dad and I had in uh the the the world the world translator one?

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Yeah, yeah, it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

And it it was almost verbatim, it was just funny as hell, and that that's how we had like two old Jews in New York being a little bit disoriented.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

And my dad, you know, my dad is uh he is a Jew, but he's my my dad is the first atheist I ever met. I mean, that's that's how I learned the word.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

No contradiction whatsoever there. No contradiction.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

No contradiction. No, I I mean I never knew what an atheist was. I mean, my dad is the is that's how I learned what an atheist was.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

And um And he's the quintessential Jewish atheist, too, where he's got the zany humor, the existential kind of cynicism, yeah, and then the absolute certainty that we're alone and nobody cares. And at the same time, this is the thing, he's got a really warm and giving heart. So it this idea that you need to believe in God and need this whole framework to have values is just not true.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

So in his book, in Kin, um and I don't want to give away it away too much because he says it so brilliantly, but uh his disbelief in in religion or his or his hatred of it is illustrated like from the get-go. He was kicked out of Hebrew school on his first day for asking too many questions. Day one. So he's like, All right, and he did I would ask him, I was like, really day one? I said, What happened? He's like, Well, I opened up the book and they said, All right, page one. He's like, Yeah, I have a question. That's how he couldn't answer that. But the way it dovetails it into his life is um uh his bar mitzvah, which was would have been in 1955, was such a harrowing experience that literally it it de his bar mitzvah destroyed his family, and that's not hyperbole, it destroyed his family, which he talks about in his book, and it is what it is heartbreaking in many ways and and the funniest fucking thing ever. And I made him tell I made him tell this story at my wedding. Um, because I think that's a an important thing in life, and and I suppose it is a Jewish thing, too.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Can you encapsulate that story? Share it with our viewers and listeners.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Yeah, and maybe this will make you buy the book.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Um I'm already on Amazon while you're talking.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

Oh yeah. You're I to your listeners in the Mookieverse. Uh to all the bald and non-bald listeners. Um my dad's bar mitzvah in 1955. Bar mitzvahs weren't a big thing, so uh, in terms of like being held at a banquet hall. It was held at his apartment in the Bronx, and he was the only kid, it was just his relatives there. And uh he had his uncle um come down from DC to stay with them. Uh his his mom's brother, who we love very much. And the day of the bar mitzvah, after they have the service, they come back to the apartment, and my grandma is making deviled eggs. She's excited, she has deviled eggs ready to share with everybody. And her brother, my dad's uncle, uh, goes over to the eggs, picks one up, is right about to eat it. She slaps his hand, she says, Don't eat those, those are for guests. Because the guests hadn't arrived yet. He puts the egg down, goes into his room, uh, gets his coat on, walks out the door, and he and his sister never speak again for the rest of their life. Oh, because of the deviled egg. That was it. That was it.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

That's sad, but it but it's also devoid of context, which is like what the fuck?

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Those of her company. Okay, who am I? You know, that was the oh, so I'm not good enough. And and he he died, he fucking died. I mean, that was and never talked about it again. And that's and that's my dad's bar mitzvah. Right. It's it's like it's it's part of it.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

So well, to your point, it's sad but kind of funny.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

It's uh hilarious, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Yeah, it it's like a Sederis kind of essay, right? Yeah where you know a bunch of indefat indefatigable, that's a great indefatigable family members are just incorrigible and awful, and yet it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

And my dad is my when Barrel Fever came out, he he would buy, I think he bought five copies of that book. So when people would come over, he'd be talking about it, and you know, he's like, Oh, you gotta read this book. You know, oh I'll give it to you. Because he just loved he loved it so much. Yeah. Yeah, it it's it's an inspiring thing for for to read my dad's books, um and just have a uh you know, this guy who's just putting out tons and tons of books just for just because he needs to, because he wants to, and especially it because he can, and you know, because you know, for the in the time remaining that he has in the world, he just wants to get it all out. Um but it makes me write it's kind of crazy. Um and I don't know, this is a deeper topic, and uh I don't know enough about your your family and and your parents, but uh it reminds me of this uh article that I read about a guy named Jerry Chef. Jerry Chef was Elvis's bass player. He also played with the Doors, and his son is Jason Chef, and he played in Chicago. He replaced Peter Sotera. And Jason Chef was on a radio show in the 90s and he was in the green room uh before the interview. Him and it was like a rock band. I want to say it's like not like System of a Down, but like some kind of you know modern rock band. Cheap trick. No, no, no, no, no, like like younger bands. Okay and um like Stone Temple Pilots or something like that. And they're they're talking, and Jason is is uh saying, Yeah, well, you know, my dad, you know, he's a bass player, he taught me, and he played with Elvis, and he played on LA Woman, and he played with Rayman Zarek and Tony Williams and Larry Carlton and Flo and Eddie. And he's like, and the guy's like, well, what do you do? It's like, well, I'm playing in Chicago, and there's like a there's a beat, and then one of the guys in the band says, Dude, what's it like knowing that your dad is so much cooler than you?

SPEAKER_02 35:08

It's like it's like wow, that's pretty fucking deep. So do you feel that way with Howie? Because I see you guys as uh two ripe fruit on the same tree, and and it's and in ways it's apples and oranges, but it's the same creative kind of zany essence. Do you ever think about it through that lens? Which is Howie's been super creative, he's got different modalities of expression. Howie is a writer, and he was a creative director in an agency, so it's visual, it's textual, and you're you're sound and vision, just like your hero Bowie likes to say, but it's it's an expression of that same zeitgeist, that same creative zip.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

You know, I I mean certainly there is a huge influence and and of course similarities, and I also look a lot like him. Um but in terms of his uh not just success, which is which is uh multi-leveled and and and varied, um there is uh a certainty to his stuff, his thoughts and his expression that is just you know he's just as fucking smart as shit. And he's also the silliest guy I know. So it's like I don't think I'll ever be that. You know, I know I'll never be that. You know, so it's it's that's as that's as best as I can explain it.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

You know what it sounds like to me, not to get you on the couch and psychoanalyze you here, but just being objective and knowing both of you. I think you're being demure out of respect for your father, and you don't really want to be in the same sport or even the same league with him because you don't really want to compete, but at the same time, you want to differentiate yourself. And part of this, I think, is respect and admiration for Howie, and I think you're you're downplaying your own creativity and accomplishments to accomplish all of these goals, ostensibly, to revere your father and to, in a sense, put him on a pedestal and to love him in the way you loved him when you were a kid. But I think you're thoroughly differentiated and you've got gifts that are commensurate to his only expressed differently.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Okay, and I I I appreciate the therapy acting. Um, I've never written a book. I've tried writing a sort of I I admire, I admire any person who can finish a book. I really do.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

How many EPs has Howie put out?

SPEAKER_03 38:03

That's that's true. Okay, no, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

See, that's what I'm saying, which is which is all that that zany krakow energy is there, all that creativity, all that enthusiasm, and all that talent, frankly, but it's just expressed differently.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

So so here, let me put you on the couch now. Did you uh your artistic uh endeavors and achievements are are are they in any way uh related to your acting out against your parents or in homage to your parents?

SPEAKER_02 38:41

I think absolutely. First off, there's uh there's some DNA, the writer's bug is in my family. My sister Ava, who was born and raised in Caracas, Venezuela, where I was conceived actually, has been a writer her whole life. So she's got dozen plus novels. She was a journalist, and she's always been writing. And then our maternal grandmother in Budapest wrote poetry into her 90s.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

And there's stories of various family members from both sides of the family with this obsessive compulsion to be a writer, be a poet. So that's the broader kind of congenital context. And then my father and I had a contentious, very difficult relationship. From pretty much the moment I was born, I disappointed him. My father looked like a combination of the Marlborough man and Saddam Hussein. He had a big black mustache and thick black eyebrows. He had a jetting black hair, unlike his son. And uh and he was the macho man. He was homophobic, misogynist, he was openly racist, he was a Jewish Archibunker. And uh, and we never got along. And I was always a disappointment to him. And me being an intellectual or me being creative was an act of defiance since birth. And he was the kind of guy who had a whole workshop in his basement as he tooled around. This guy built furniture but couldn't complete a sentence. And I was the opposite, I couldn't shut the hell up, but it was pretty inept with that kind of physical stuff. I think I'm a good guitar player, which I might have gotten from him, you know, just being able to shred dexterity, but uh, but as far as building shit and being the handyman, no. So I think you're right. Part of my creative enthusiasm has been to differentiate and to just stake my own claim in my own way. Wow. But that was also difficult because for years I didn't think I had credibility or validity doing that. And I think it had a lot to do with his shadow bearing down on me. And I think it's no accident that my creativity really exploded and I got really comfortable with myself as a writer and a creator after he died. It's almost like he had to leave the planet for me to have the freedom to express myself in a way where I could really do my own thing.

SPEAKER_03 41:25

Who? To create that space.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

To create that space, literally, was engendered by him just checking out because his presence was so strong. He was he was MAGA before MAGA was cool. This guy hated everybody. He he he was a Holocaust survivor, and he said, if I wouldn't be Jewish, I'd be the world's biggest Nazi, and he meant it. He was he was a mean motherfucker. Oh man, so that was intimidating to me, and I was an only child, too. And my mother had postpartum depression, so she was you ever see what's what's what's ailing Gilbert Grape?

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

That mom was my mom, only less obese and she didn't smoke. But my mom was pretty much a zombie throughout my life. She's on the couch doing nothing, and my dad was like the great Santini, the drill, the drill, the drill instructor, and Gilbert Grape's mom. That's how I grew up.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Oh man, that's I have I I have spooky, I have such a fear of the great of being the great Santini. Because no, no, because my my kids are both musicians. They can both play, you know. My son, Jake, he's 13, he's obsessed with Eddie Van Halen, and you know, we're playing guitar.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Oh, awesome. See, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

And my little guy, Shane, is a singer and an actor and drums, and you know, I they have serious talent, whether it whether it comes from the family or just them, who the fuck knows? And growing up with you, right? But I want to nurture that.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

You got sure Captain Jesse.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Captain Jesse. But as much as I want to nurture that, I am so worrisome, cognizant about not being the great Santini. Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Because it's like it's the best meme from a year or two ago is David Gilmore reaching over his daughter's shoulder as she played an e-chord, and he's kind of pointing, and the look on her face is like Yeah. Like there, there's my dad is David Gilmore. Yeah, and he's insisting that I play this E chord properly right now, and I'm in hell. Yeah, you think it's great, you think I'm blessed and I'm entitled, but this is the worst thing that could happen to me. Yeah, I mean this this is the guy who you know hey you this is the guy who is is that but this is the guy who who wrote and performed the guitar solos in the album Animals, yeah, which is probably I think the best slow hand guitar work ever recorded, and and he's showing this poor lass an e-chord. So I think what we're getting at here is I find it very relatable and I understand where you don't want to be that guy, you want to give them creative freedom, you want to inspire them, and at the same time, you don't want to be like despicable me, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Right. And you know, you know, my dad and I, I I mean, I think, you know, I you know, we're we're doing great, we're doing amazing now. You know, we we certainly had parts where we were not great.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

I was gonna ask you about that because you know, Howie right now is obviously a super nice guy. My interactions with him have been blissful, but we were just two old Jews wandering around Manhattan, yeah, and he's an agency guy, and to survive and to flourish in an advertising agency, yeah, it's mad men for real. You need cojones and you need to be a competitive motherfucker to survive, let alone flourish.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Well, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, my dad has never been anything but the nicest, most generous, silliest guy. However, my dad I many people have told me that my dad is the smartest person they've ever met. Right? So, like Gilmore's daughter, you would think that that's pretty fun. When you're playing boggle with your dad and your brother, and you can't find a word, but he's like finding oh, he's finding all this shit. You're like, oh my god, I'm a fucking idiot, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

You develop an inferiority complex. Yeah, I dated a physicist's daughter in high school, Claire, and her father worked at Fermi Lab, and he was a physicist, a practicing professional physicist, and um a grandmaster or some high-ranked chess champion. And she grew up with her older brother under this halo of genius, yeah, and neither could compete with the guy, and they both felt smothered by him.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Her older brother became our our our Yoda in high school. We he he lived in an apartment, it was kind of a mess. He dropped out of college, his parents were paying for the apartment, and he just smoked weed and did acid all the time, and he turned us on to all the alternative music. That was my first brush with this stuff. Joy Division, Echo and the Bunnymen, Crispy Ambulance, all that alternative Manchester post-industrial punk stuff came from Claire's brother. And then experimenting with drugs and hanging out.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

The kids are the physicists, the physicist kids.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

He had like lab equipment that he turned into bongs and all this crazy kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

Well, that makes sense. A beaker could be a good bong. Yeah, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Absolutely. Had it built into a table, you know. He had lasers from the lab and a cat that would go nuts leaping off of the furniture. Oh, Jesus. It was it was crazy kind of stuff, but uh, he was an inspirational kind of anti anti-yoda for us. And a lot of this ties back to the genius dad, which is being smothered by it. One would assume that these families are just a lineage of inspiration cross-generally cross-generationally, but there's a heavy price to be paid for success in families, too. And then when young people enter the fold, there's one of two paths you can take, which is compete with daddy O or let Daddy O do his own thing, and I'll just branch off and do my own thing. Yeah, and you could play it either way. Look at Wolfgang Van Halen. That that's a tough spot to be in.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

But he's crushing it.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

I think he's he's great. I don't really like I don't like his music very much, right? But that's irrelevant. What's important is that the kid somehow has managed to dodge the bullets of that Halo. Do his own thing, and he's very likable.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

He's fucking talented as shit.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Oh, yeah, he plays he plays everything. He plays everything, yeah, man. He grew up in 5150 studios with dad stumbling in at you know 10 a.m. from the night before.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

And and and you're talking, Eddie, is a genius of uh just a literal genius in in every way, and having that shadow and how he's navigating his own life, you know.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

That's I think a best in class example of being dad, but not taking the good parts and leaving out the bad ones, and being able to negotiate that. And we all know stories of sons and daughters who've been annihilated by their successful parents, and then we've got other stories of people who are orphans and knock it out of the park because they just don't have any of that. So it's all about how we navigate our families, and siblings, siblings make a big difference too. So what what's your what's your sibling situation like?

SPEAKER_03 50:03

I have an older brother. Okay, that helps. So he's the guy. Uh getting back to the idea of how you're not dexter dexteritous and building furniture or building shit. Uh my brother is the ultimate uh fixer-upper guy. He's a contractor in uh among any things, many things. He's also a writer, but uh got more into working with his hands. Um and his and his mind. Uh but yeah, he's definitely the more you know, he he doesn't like Captain B Fart. He doesn't like the shags, you know. That's that's noise to him. And and understandably so.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

And you don't build shit, and you're not a handyman.

SPEAKER_03 50:48

You know what? I I'm s I'm strong, so I can break shit. I'm gonna doing demo. No, I I I I don't what my dad taught me is like he said, if you don't know how to do something at all, you say I don't know how to do it, and then you ask somebody else to do it for you, or you pay them. Don't fuck it up yourself. There are pe there are people that know how to do the thing that you don't know how to do. So say I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

That's management.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

Um you know what's really good with that is my my ex-life partner, Jill, who's uh whose kids, you know, Oliver and Max, and you gave guitar lessons, right? Yeah, and uh Jill is a great delegator. She's delegators that perfectly. If she doesn't know how to do it, she just hires people, and she's been terrific at that. I kind of suck at it. I'm always trying to do everything myself, do it most of it poorly.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

Yeah, no, I mean listen, I mean, we're I'm trying to be more DIY with stuff. Um, I think the life lesson though, my dad's saying, just say you don't know. No one likes to know it all. And my you know, um my dad is the least know-it-all person, except for the things that he knows a lot about.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

That's smart. That's smart. It's like that Frank Zappa song Finder Finder.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

Finder Finder, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

Yeah, don't let her know you are smart because the universe is nowhere to start. And uh same thing. No one likes the smart ass. You come in guns blazing and you just end up alienating people, and you're you're better off with humility and and and when necessary, just delegating. And uh you kill two birds, you become a good leader, and at the same time you get you get stuff done that's important.

SPEAKER_03 52:43

You can't be you can't be a genius at everything. So you gotta be incompetent. It's okay to be incompetent at cer at certain things.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Embrace your failures.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

So, okay, so that leads into this is a this is a good great way to wrap it up. Um, the book that I've been writing originally I've been working on under the idea called Your Father the Failed Rock Star, which is a book about from me to to my kids about my life as a musician. And then I realized maybe that's not the message I want to be uh telling them, even even though it's fucking funny as shit. Because because failure is a l is awesome. You can learn I'm you can learn so much about failure, but I uh um and and it's funny and those are the stories that people will want to relate to because you're not bragging, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Humility is is important, but at the same time, to your point, how do you really define failure? And yeah, and what what I'm discovering is that the greatest success ever possible is is satisfaction with one's own self and the ability to share and create and just go for it is intrinsically rewarding to the point that any kind of societal acknowledgement, be it adoration or fandom or even money, is really secondary. So if you could please yourself and you love what you do and you and you love doing it, then you're immune to consultation and you're guaranteed a high quality of life seeing. And if you're relying on feedback from the world, it's back to that Rick Rubin thing we talked about last time, that the audience comes last. Yeah, and it's easy for Rick Rubin to say after all of his hits and successes, but it's true, and the the older I get and the wiser I think I am, the more I'm creating. And you're doing the same thing, which is just fuck it. I I I'm in the mood to do this right now, and thankfully I'm blessed with a mood which is just effervescing with with creation and sharing. So that's success. Yeah, that's as good as it gets.

SPEAKER_03 55:10

Well said, I like that very much.

SPEAKER_02 55:13

So I think you're rocking it. Who who gives a shit if your two EPs a week are listened to by five million people or five people?

SPEAKER_01 55:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

Does that change the creation of it, the joy you had in letting it out there? No, and as you leave these breadcrumbs behind you, you're building this edifice of Jesse. And I was just talking about this with another guest Tino just yesterday. That now that the bots are all scraping and digesting all human content and then regurgitating it, uh, each and everything that we produce now actually and ironically gets noticed and shared. So artists are really upset with AI that it's taking our jobs, it's it's stealing our content. But the flip side of that is we have an audience that's the world right now, and everything that we create is getting schlorped up into the hive mind. And when people are creating their own stuff and when they're enjoying things, little bits and pieces of our essence are going out there, and everything that we do and say is being recorded and tracked and remembered because it's relevant and it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

I like the idea of leaving breadcrumbs that when accumulated can like form a pyramid, like a structure, the house of the house of Jesse.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Yeah. And before it would be like how many people are viewing it, how many people are in the audience for your show? How many tickets have you sold?

SPEAKER_03 56:57

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

How many people are coming to your website? What are your hits on your social media video? But now there's uh there's a gravitas to everything because these models are being trained on content and things are being shared and reshared, and you never know when your content pops back up and how it not only will be remembered, but who's engaging with it and how. I think it's an exciting time, despite all the madness and all the AI slop. The flip side to all of this is uh if if if we're being listened to and heard and ingested, it's it's the robots. They're they're very interested in everything that we're doing and saying.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

Well, my my dad was predicting to bring it back to Howie for one second, my dad was predicting the robots taking over. I mean, I he was telling that me telling that to me in the 90s.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

You know, it is it and and then however many maybe like when the iPhones came on, I remember talking to him. He's like, the problem is that you know, they've won. And he wasn't being facetious, he was being the problem is that they've won. It's like, yeah, yeah, good point.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

I guess it's a problem, but is inevitability a problem? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 58:19

It's not it, it's not this is a funny thing. And I mean, again, I as you can tell, I love my dad very much, and I can bring I can bring we should bring Howie on the podcast. Can you do that? I could uh not right now, but yeah, I I can't.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

No, let's let's do a uh a a Menaja Goofy and uh and and have Howie on. I think that would really be great. Let's uh do that if we can muck mu conjure him up, and instead of referring to him third person, we could just have Howie show his brilliance and irreverence, and uh we could bust each other's balls. I think that would be a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

You know, he would like that very much. Um what's important for me as a dad is realizing when I how much I'm wrong and why it's good sometimes for my p my kids to be like, dad, I don't want to hear it, because that's a natural, it's okay to do that. It's okay, that's fine. Um realizing that how change comes and to realize that uh the new shit is great and that the changes are great. And it's because it's an it's uh it's impossible to hold on to these old beliefs and grow. And I say it and this is a way of illustrating it. Um we just redid our house. We're redoing it, we're always redoing our house, but we did a we redid our bathroom a couple years ago, and my dad bought my wife and I a toilet. The same Japanese toilet that he has in his house, which he loves.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

Is there a bidet in it?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:01

It's a bidet and it self-flushes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

Oh god, the Japanese are really good at that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

And you just you can just you know at it and it flushes basically. And I was telling him, This is so crazy, dad. Uh you know my dad grew up in the Bronx uh uh, you know, in the 40s where you know they had the old toilet with the bucket the old chain. Yeah, so he starts he my dad in his lifetime goes from that to now a toilet where you just go and it flushes. It tickles your asshole. It tickles your asshole. And it's like he's like, he's like he's he and he's like that's awesome. He's like he's like he is so excited about that. That in his lifetime, that's what he gets. It's like that's how good the world is, and that's kind of what inspires me about my dad. It's like right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:57

It's good to appreciate that. My my dad was the Holocaust survivor, so he was taciturn and fairly frugal his whole life, but he had 60, 70 pairs of shoes. And he would sometimes wake up and open the closet and just look at his shoes. And the reason he did that was because the winter of 1944-1945 was cold and snowy in Budapest, and he had no shoes. And at one point he found a boot on the street that was frozen, and he took it and put it in his kitchen sink to defrost, and the next morning he found the foot still in it. So he's traumatized by having no shoes in this instance among many, and he loved his shoes, so he went from no shoes, to all the shoes, and he used to just walk through a supermarket and look at the food because he had no food. So this idea of going from scarcity to abundance can really only be appreciated if you've had scarcity, and I think the best thing we can do, maybe as a fitting capper, because I'm a dad too, and we were talking about is to let our kids discover things for themselves. And this might go back to some of your fears about being the great Santini and overbearing that David Gilmore showing showing his daughter the E-chord, which is we gotta let them loose, we gotta let them just figure it out for themselves, provide a safe and happy home.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:29

Even though David Gilmore has inspired more people to play guitar, specifically an E minor chord. Right. Doesn't mean he knows everything there is to know about the E minor chord.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:44

And even if he did, if he did, yeah. Let the gal figure it out herself.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:49

That's her look, which is damn that's hilarious. I gotta I gotta look that up.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Yeah, I'll s I'll send it to you. I'll actually in the YouTube video I'll I'll have it flowing in the uh the video. Thanks for making time, Jesse.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:06

Dude, totally, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Let's do this again. Can you can we try to get Howie on?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:10

Yeah, I'll definitely I'll definitely try to get Howie on. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:14

Another idea too is to try to get Jell O Biafra on. Are you guys still friends?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

You know, but I haven't talked to him in a while. You know, he was he's he got sick.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Um Yeah, he just had the stroke, and uh, but he's been active. Your album with the Shags was on his tentacles label, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Dark Wigan Man, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:32

Yeah. So, you know, I just think having Jell-O on would really be amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:39

I'll see, I'll see what I'll see what I can do.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:41

Remember, I mentioned my favorite album, Ionian by Dimu Borghir. In my top five albums, I've got that one and fresh fruit for rotting vegetables. I think that that is if if if we could blast music into space and the last vestige of the human species would be like a piece of music, I'd include fresh fruit for fresh.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:06

I'll see what I can do.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:07

I would just love to tell Jello that, which I don't mean to blow smoke up your ass, Jello, but that that that is the crowning glory of an entire genre. You did it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

He's a mensch. He's I gotta tell you. He's a mensch.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

At the very least, Howie Krakow on No Hair All Heart. Let's get that going. Thanks so much for your time, Jesse. I really appreciate it. I'm gonna leave the phone call in this podcast. Okay. I I love the fact that we just weave and wind and and I just have such a great time talking to you. Yeah, likewise, dude. Awesome. All right, like, comment, share.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:41

Like, comment, share.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:43

More Jesse coming your way with hopefully Howie. You gotta bring your data.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

Thank you so much, bro. Bye.