Listening as a Sacred Spiritual Practice, S1E3

LaSaundra Gibson and guest Kay Lindahl, a listening educator, discuss the sacred nature of listening, the importance of being present, and various practices that enhance our listening skills. Kay emphasizes listening as an integral part of our spiritual journey, along with silence and reflection. The dialogue also highlights the distinction between dialogue and discussion, the transformative power of being listened to, and the emotional depth that can arise from intentional listening practices.

Book Resource: Practicing the Sacred Art of Listening: A Guide to Enrich Your Relationships and Kindle Your Spiritual Life by Kay Lindahl  

Transcript

LaSaundra Gibson (00:44)

Welcome to The Being Devotionals. I'm LaSaundra Gibson. On today's episode, how we can enhance our relationships and our spiritual lives by becoming better listeners. Joining me today is Kay Lindahl, the founder of the Listening Center in Long Beach, California, and author of the book Practicing the Sacred Art of Listening. And she's also written several other books on listening as well. Welcome, Kay. I'm so glad you're here with me to talk about listening today.

Kay (01:11)

Well, thank you for having me. It's my favorite topic. So it's wonderful to be with you to talk about it.

LaSaundra Gibson (01:16)

you this podcast is about inviting people into deeper awareness and connection with themselves and God. And I believe deep listening is one of the ways that we can do that. And so we're going to talk about the different ways that deep listening happens. But first I want to ask you, why do you believe listening is so important in our spiritual journey?

Kay (01:38)

Well, it's interesting that question because it's really the whole of what I'm doing. My sort of tagline for the past 25 years is that listening is a sacred art and a spiritual practice. It just seems to me that it's just directly related to the spiritual journey. How can you know where you're going if you're not listening for guidance along the way? How can you be connected if you're not really spending time listening with

to yourself, to God, and to other people. And so it's really an integral part, I think, of this spiritual journey is listening and learning how to listen effectively and paying attention to listening and becoming aware of your listening.

LaSaundra Gibson (02:20)

it's so true what you said that you really can't disconnect it from all of the other parts, we are listening to ourselves, God, and how we are listening to others and interacting with others. I've been told that I'm a good listener, which I have to say actually makes me happy, but I don't think that I have always been a good listener. I think there are some things that have probably cultivated that over the years. I will say as a

child, I remember being self-aware and knowing what I wanted, knowing what I needed, knowing what I didn't like and being able to articulate that. And so I think I was probably listening to myself and think discernment has always been a strong gift where I've just naturally been able to discern and listen for things. What is God saying? I can point to probably three things that I think have

led me on this journey of wanting to be a better listener. And one is during the time of my divorce, I was seeing a spiritual director and a therapist.

And so I noticed after having those sessions just how much more clearer I could see things, how much more lighter I felt, how much more hopeful I felt. And that was a noticing that happened every time I had a session with either my therapist or a spiritual director because I had been heard, I'd been listened to. And then in seminary, I interviewed a woman, Dr. Janice Strength, who is a psychologist and a spiritual director.

And she shared with me how when we are heard and listen to how something actually changes in the brain, how that prefrontal cortex, which is where we manage emotions, actually develops and changes and transforms. there's the science to, aha, this is affirming as to why I would feel so differently, so much more hopeful after those sessions. And then thirdly, being a spiritual director, I can see firsthand

But as I'm offering that gift of deep listening to others, I'm seeing them, the light bulbs going off, they're hearing what's going on inside of themselves and they're noticing what God is doing. And so I think those things have deepened my desire to want to listen and be a better listener. And so I'm curious to know for you, how did you start on this journey of guiding and leading and teaching on listening?

Kay (04:49)

Before I go into that directly though, there's a quote that came to my mind when you were speaking and it's by a Quaker by the name of Douglas Steer. And he says that, listening another soul into a condition of discovery and disclosure may be almost the greatest service any human being performs for another. And the role of a spiritual director, think is partially, you can put that into that context, that that's what the spiritual director was.

LaSaundra Gibson (05:09)

Yeah.

Kay (05:18)

for your soul. That's deep listening. And then when your soul is listened to, it's like it fills something up in you. And you said you always felt so good after having open and present, after having your spiritual direction sessions. And I think that's what it is. Your soul is longing for this opportunity to speak. And then when someone listens to you, really listens deeply to you, it just sort of

LaSaundra Gibson (05:19)

Yeah.

Yes.

Kay (05:46)

your soul blossoms in that environment. So, yeah. But I started this work at least 25 years ago, more than 25 years ago. I was very engaged at that point in interfaith work, working with people from different faith traditions. And one of the first things we discovered is that we needed to learn how to listen to each other.

LaSaundra Gibson (05:51)

beautiful.

Kay (06:09)

without getting into some kind of competition or really some debate about whose faith is better than the other one or any of that stuff. We really just wanted to get to know each other and to learn to understand each other better. And so we came up with some guidelines for dialogue. And I found this work by Dr. David Bohm, who was very interested in the field of dialogue. one of the things that he said,

was that really helped me a lot was the difference between dialogue and discussion. And dialogue comes from dia logos, which is Greek and it means dia means through and logos is the word or meaning. And so a dialogue is an exploration. It's a flowing back and forth of looking for some new possibility, opening up to new understanding. Discussion is discateri, it's Latin. It comes from

from literally to shake apart. And it's looking for answers. It's looking for analysis. You're trying to find something to do. so it's not that it's an inferior type of speech. It's just a different kind of speech than dialogue. And so we looked at that and that to me suggested that.

Oftentimes we don't have this distinction and I think we're in a dialogue where we're looking for something new, we're exploring, we're just having this opening kind of conversation without looking for answers versus a discussion when we really are looking for answers because it's important, it's an agenda, we need to get something done. So there two different kinds of conversations and if we think we're in a dialogue and the other person thinks we're in a discussion, we're in two different conversations.

LaSaundra Gibson (07:57)

Yeah.

Kay (08:00)

And at the same time, I had started my own spiritual practice of centering prayer, which was for me, it's about listening to God and it's a silent prayer. And it was very, very helpful and useful to me. And then the third thing that happened was a spiritual colleague of mine asked me to do a weekend retreat with him.

And the topic was prayer. And I thought, well, he was an ordained clergy. And I thought, well, that's interesting. I don't know why you want me to come and talk about prayer, because that's your job. And he said, well, I want you to teach them Centering Prayer. I know that's what you do. I think that would be really important for them. And he said, I know you do a lot of work in dialogue. And I think that would be important as far as prayer is concerned as well. And as we were planning this, I thought, there's a third element that needs to be in there. And that's listening to self.

LaSaundra Gibson (08:35)

Yeah.

Kay (08:55)

listening to my own inner voice. And so those three things, I developed some experiential exercises in those three arenas.

Anyway, it went really well. People loved it and they got a lot out of the exercises that I suggested they take on. And that's how it all started. then my spiritual guide, I guess I could call him, he suggested that I really think about what I was going to do next. it became clear to me that this was a call, that I was called to do this work. And I started doing it. I came up with the title of the Listening Center.

LaSaundra Gibson (09:24)

Yeah.

Kay (09:30)

and then just started doing workshops and presentations and I've been doing that ever since.

LaSaundra Gibson (09:37)

Wow, we're so, we're so thankful to have you here then to share all of your wisdom on this topic. And I just so appreciate that pastor who saw something in you and gave you the opportunity to step into your calling. I think that's so, so meaningful. I appreciate that you say that it is an art, excuse me, and we're going to talk about centering prayer because those are some of the ways that we can deepen listening.

you call it an art and it sounds like it's, why do you call it an art? For me, I'm hearing it's something we have to practice, but there may be more there for why you call it an art.

Kay (10:16)

Yes, people ask me that a lot and it is because when you think about an art in general, I often think about the visual arts or musical arts or painting and drawing and dancing and music and that kind of thing. But we also sometimes think about the art of teaching and the art of coaching. And what do we mean when we say that? And for me,

I looked at that and I said, think there's something about when something becomes an art, it's because I am participating. I am at one with whatever it is that I'm up to. There's an at oneness to it.

just being fully present and at one with whatever it is you're doing. And I think that's what, when I talk about the art of listening, it's when we are truly at one with someone else when we're listening to them. When you think about a time when someone was really listening to you, they weren't thinking about where they were gonna go next, what they were gonna do next, or what they were gonna say next, they were simply present with you.

There was something else there. There was you and there was that other person. And then for me, there's another presence. It's spirit. It's something, there's something sacred, something holy about listening in that manner. And there's a philosopher by the name of Martin Buber who says that when two people are listening to each other authentically, God is the electricity that surges between them.

So there's that sense of that, that's the art. It's like there's something that happens when we are in that space of truly deep listening to each other that creates it into being an art. And what you also said was, and as an art, you can practice. So there are some practices that we can do that will help us to become more effective at naturally going into that space of oneness when we get the opportunity to do so.

LaSaundra Gibson (12:15)

Yeah.

that is so beautiful how you described the sacred part of this. So many times I think we water down and simplify that word spiritual. And I doubt that many of us think of just listening to someone, that that is a spiritual act. And that is such a reminder of just how

The sacred is woven into so much of just our daily

Kay (12:46)

Yeah, and I think that's a missing in our world today. know, that this is if we just took, take a moment, it doesn't take anything more than a moment to acknowledge that, to acknowledge the sacred, to acknowledge that something special is happening here, or to just even acknowledge the sacred in, you know, smelling the cup of coffee first thing in the morning can be a sacred moment.

LaSaundra Gibson (13:10)

Yeah, it is to me. I love it. I look forward

to it every day.

Kay (13:15)

Yeah, but you know

to call that sacred, to allow the sacred to be part of everyday life. It's not something that just happens at an hour or two at a worship service somewhere. It's something that's part of everyday life. It's woven into everything that we do if we are present to it.

LaSaundra Gibson (13:35)

Yeah, so wonderful. So when you said that we can practice, which I hope that we all want to, I want to continue practicing being a listener. Let's talk about some of the ways that you mentioned in your book that help us be better listeners and the ways that you say we are called into deep listening. You mentioned earlier contemplative listening, centering prayer, and you say in your book, silent

prayer leads us from conversation to communion.

So that first one is contemplative listening that you mentioned. Can you tell us more about that?

Kay (14:11)

Yes, think this is the being silent, being still is the doorway to deep listening. And it's something that we are not very good at in our regular daily lives these days. Is there so much going on? We have so much activity going on. There's so much noise all over the place. And it's how do we find that place of stillness? Because they're really...

There really is no listening without stillness, without silence. We can't listen. If we're really wanting to listen to someone else, we can't be thinking about what's going on in our own heads or taking in something else to be present, to be fully present with them. So I think that the notion of slowing down, to be still, to be silent, to allow God to go to work in you.

is really a key practice. so the practice of silence, I think, is one of the most important elements to becoming a more effective listener, is to just know that you can be comfortable in the silence. So if someone is speaking, you can be there, open, to hear what they have to say, rather than thinking about something else.

because you have the practice of silence to call on so that you become that available presence for them.

LaSaundra Gibson (15:36)

practicing that stillness and being comfortable being in silence. It cultivates in us and creates this capacity for others, which is about communion. And so it is about self, God and others. It's never just about ourselves. And so I think that is so, so meaningful.

and that something that we are doing in turn is helping another.

Kay (16:02)

There's a colleague of mine who talks about it as we become the midwives for someone else's thinking by the quality of our listening. So the way we listen to someone else can really impact.

the quality of their lives because they will open themselves up to something that they hadn't thought about before. Because it's like we are there to just sort of hold the space in that sense of attentiveness and curiosity, maybe some wonder, that openness space in which someone can speak themselves and know that they are being heard. And that's really, to me,

such a gift and it's so important as part of our listening practices.

LaSaundra Gibson (16:51)

So important holding space, yes. So you also mentioned reflective listening and what do you mean by that and how do we put that into practice?

Kay (16:53)

Mm-hmm.

Reflective listening is that what I said before was that missing piece that I said has to go in there and it's about listening to ourselves, getting to know our own voice, getting to that quiet still place that's within each one of us and then listening to the wisdom that's there. And it's the kind of thing that for me getting to know your own voice is very helpful in listening because it also helps us to know when it's time to speak and when it's time to listen.

Is it time to speak now or is it time to listen now? If I don't know my own voice, I won't even think about that question. But I'm asking myself, is it time for me to speak? Is it time not for me to speak? And how do I get to know this voice? Is I ask myself the question, what wants to be said next? Rather than what do I want to say next, I say, what wants to be said next? That causes me to reflect, to look inside.

to see, what does want to be said next? What is it that's waiting to be spoken through me at this point in time? And that just takes some practice to learn to do that

LaSaundra Gibson (18:12)

what is that difference for you and that distinction in what you said, what I want to say right now and what wants to be said?

Kay (18:21)

Well, if I ask the question, what do I want to say? I'm thinking in my head, what's my ego? It's just like, what do I, K, want to say? Whereas if I say, what wants to be said? I'm saying, ⁓ not what I want to say. What wants to be said? And it's a practice that requires patience to get to that inner voice. It's there.

But we're so used to being up in our heads, chattering around here, that it's almost like listening to your heart rather than listening to your head. And I think that's the key in reflective listening, is learning to get into that place. There's a Quaker saying that it's a sin to speak when you're not moved to speak, and it's a sin not to speak when you're moved to speak. And it's like that, that is easier to discern when you have...

taken the time to say what wants to be said next and just waiting to see what is it that wants to be said at this.

LaSaundra Gibson (19:20)

And a lot of that comes in too with discerning the spirit as well. The spirit is within.

Kay (19:24)

Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (19:28)

I like what you said about ego because it is so true. And when we cultivate that being comfortable in silence and centering, is another thing that happens is there's less ego. We need the ego, of course, at times, but we need to also keep it in its proper place to where it's not, you know, first all the time.

one of the ways that reflective listening is helpful as a practice is the prayer of examine

And I have found that to be so helpful when you said listening for within,

Going through my day, when did I feel joyful? When did I feel When did I feel sad? Did I feel angry? When did I feel close to God? I mean, kind of examining my day at the end of day is a place of self-reflection. And I think that is so powerful in that it helps us really see what is true because things can get so distorted.

But taking that moment to be still and sit and self-reflect, it really brings truth to light in what my experience really was and not what it seemed like through all of these false things that cloud and distort. Would you agree with that?

Kay (20:47)

Yes, I there are so many moments that go by that we just we're just like sleepwalking sometimes because we're not aware. It's being present. think that part of what the examine prayer is about being present and present to your life. What happened in my life today?

And look and looking at it and being just having that sense of getting to know yourself through that practice.

LaSaundra Gibson (21:14)

group listening, what is that and how can we practice that?

Kay (21:19)

it's listening to others and that whole notion of the dialogue that I went through before I think is a wonderful practice to think about how we listen to other people and how we can express that through our being present with other people.

when you're in a group setting and they're

people are talking and sharing different things. It's that sense of listening to understand rather than to agree with or believe. Because we won't always agree with what people are saying. We won't always believe what they're saying because that won't be our belief. That'll be their belief. But if we just listen to understand, what a difference that would make in the world because we don't go on the defensive and say, well,

I'm not going to believe that, or I don't think that's right. But you can just say, ⁓ wow, that's what that person thinks. Isn't that interesting? And then ask questions based from isn't it interesting, rather than you're wrong. And I'm right.

LaSaundra Gibson (22:08)

Thank you.

Kay (22:20)

So I think a practice for listening to others is to practice what I call a

a daily mindfulness minute. And for one minute every day to just time yourself when you're doing something like fixing your coffee in the morning, we'll go back to our coffee. And for 60 seconds being fully aware of every single step that you're taking while you're making that cup of coffee.

your brain actually does things sequentially, very quickly, but it's sequential, it's not exactly at the same time. And so we're tiring our brains out by trying to think, by doing too much multitask, and we all have to do some.

But if all we do is multitasking, our brains are going to get really tired. And so if we can unitask, do one thing at a time, I think that's a perfect way to sort of be in the moment and be present. And when you're listening to others, being in the moment, being present, is key to being that wonderful space for them.

LaSaundra Gibson (23:24)

these things we can practice just in our day to day and somehow that just creates more of an organic, natural deepening of listening to others.

And one of the most important things I think I've heard you say, it sounds to me, not to diminish the other, you said dialogue and then discussion, not to diminish discussion, but it sounds like what we do need more of in our world with everything that's going on is more dialogue, because that's where the curiosity, the discovery, the just listening and being open and curious to what another person is saying,

allows us to be in a place where we are just listening and being curious, we're not judging or trying to one up them or anything like that. Is that what you're saying?

Kay (24:16)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it is what I'm saying. I think it's, we spend so much time, well, number one, I think we don't distinguish between dialogue and discussion. so, there are moments when discussion is important. And again, just clarifying that we're gonna hear, we're gonna have a conversation about this. Some of businesses have taken on.

making that distinction and before they have a business meeting they'll have a dialogue conversation and they'll say, well we're just going to look at some things, we're going to explore some things, find out what you're thinking. And then they do that and then they go into their business meeting where they have to make the decisions and the decisions can be made much more efficiently and effectively because they've had that chance to just sort of mull things over and explore a little bit.

So just that shift really makes a difference in people's listening and how they can move forward and get work done and have felt that they've been listened to as well.

LaSaundra Gibson (25:29)

we are navigating our relationships, our interpersonal relationships.

Kay (25:32)

Yes, yes.

Indeed.

I think one of the things when we're listening to other people that I like a lot too is when someone has finished speaking, instead of jumping right in right away, say to them, is there anything else? And say, is there anything else in that open way? Not like, I hope they don't say anything else because I really want to talk. But just say, is there anything else? And just wait five seconds, which seems like an eternity sometimes.

LaSaundra Gibson (25:59)

you

Kay (26:05)

And oftentimes people will just stop and say, yeah, there is something else. I'd really like to know. Because we're so used to being in conversations where we say it fast, because if we don't, somebody else is going to come in and say, know, interrupt us, they're going to want to tell me right back what they think about something. And it interferes with our ability to reflect ourselves to do that.

LaSaundra Gibson (26:29)

When we talk about this work that you've done and how this has been so life-changing or meaningful, is there someone that you've spoken with or just even in your own life that you can point to that has really just, through this way of being intentional about listening, been so transformative?

Kay (26:51)

Hmm.

There been some minor things within my family life that somebody will be doing something that irritates the heck out of me and I'll just want to say something and I'll just say, wait a minute, stop. They're just doing what they do. It doesn't mean that it's right or wrong. It doesn't mean that you're right or wrong. Just allow that to just be that way. The example I can...

the one example that think that comes to my mind because it was such a big one for me. My husband and I the washer dryer, the washer had flooded the house. So we needed to get new carpeting on the floor. And I said, ⁓ let's get wood. I love wood floors. And I thought this would be such a great thing to have wooden floors. And my husband was like, no, we're not having wood floors.

And we went over and over and around and about and I couldn't figure it out because he grew up in the eastern part of the country where all the floors were wood and I thought, and he was an architect and I thought, well wouldn't he love this natural wood floor instead of carpet on cement? And then finally, one day, I listened to him, I couldn't figure it out and I almost ready to go to the mat on that one. I said, you know, I really want wood floors. And then,

LaSaundra Gibson (28:12)

You

Kay (28:14)

We were talking one night and he said, you know, he said it just seems out of integrity to put wood on concrete, directly on concrete to have a wooden floor. For me, it's just like chalk on a blackboard. just makes it. It just so it just doesn't feel right. And as soon as he said that, I thought, of course. I understand. And I dropped it.

So that's an instance of when really hanging in there and listening, because I didn't wanna, I really didn't want to do it, you know, against, you know, just make him do it,

But just to have that sense of just waiting and seeing and listening and listening and listening and listening.

LaSaundra Gibson (28:57)

Yeah. Well, I don't know if you would be up for this or if we can even do it with two people, I learned about you and read your book because of a seminary class that I took. And we, for several weeks, did something together as a group. I think there were maybe three of us in a group.

Kay (29:03)

Thanks.

LaSaundra Gibson (29:18)

we did what you mentioned earlier. sat and waited for what wanted to be said and there were no thank you for sharing. There was no, well I think this, you know.

You just let the person speak and you listen and that's And so many things came out of me. I can't speak for the others, but that I didn't even realize was there.

And that was so cool. And so I didn't know if there was a way to just briefly demonstrate that now and just see what comes out.

Kay (29:41)

Yeah.

because it's very similar to an exercise that I do in my workshops. When I do a workshop, I call it the listening stick exercise. And it's no more than four people in a group. So every group is going to respond to the same first question. And so the person says the question.

reflects for about 25 or 30 seconds, says whatever it is they have to say about it, and then when they're finished, they go back inside and say they do it themselves, what's the next question that wants to be asked, and then the next person gets to respond to that question.

when I model it, I never know. ask the group, say, okay, come up with a question for me. So I don't know what they're gonna ask me.

So the question might be, what brings you joy?

And I find myself oftentimes saying things that I had no idea were gonna come from a very seemingly innocuous question or even a lighthearted question. it just, when I reflect and just go deeper and deeper.

It's amazing what comes out.

LaSaundra Gibson (30:52)

Yeah, and

it's another way of, like you said, learning about ourselves and what is in there. We don't take the time to pause and figure that

Kay (30:55)

Mm-hmm.

Well, that's the thing about it. It's just that we, in our ordinary lives, daily lives, don't, people aren't listening to us in that way. And that one of the things that people always say after they participate in that exercise is, it felt so good to be listened to and know that nobody was gonna make me wrong. They weren't gonna ask me any questions. They were simply listening to me. And they felt, they all often say, they felt that that power of that,

gave them the space in which to really do some deep thinking and deep listening to themselves and then come up with things that they wouldn't ordinarily have come up with.

I remember there was this one time I did that, and there were these two teenage girls who were best friends. And they did it together. And they said, we thought we knew each other. We thought we knew a lot about each other.

And we found out things about each other that we didn't know through doing this exercise.

LaSaundra Gibson (32:02)

Well, can we do that? I don't know. We try it. Just the two of us, it's a dyad virtually.

Kay (32:03)

Sure, sure, yeah. Yeah,

yeah. What do you wanna do? brings you peace? What makes you feel peaceful?

LaSaundra Gibson (32:13)

me peace.

brings me peace to.

I in the sun, my feet on the ground, the grass.

just listen to the birds or...

Whatever sounds are around me.

I feel peace when I see.

a little bird stop by to say hello. That happens a lot for me.

Kay (32:52)

Anything else?

LaSaundra Gibson (32:55)

sitting in my favorite chair in my living room. I don't really have to be anything but just sitting there is peaceful.

Just sitting and being.

know why me emotional.

Kay (33:10)

Mmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (33:10)

Maybe a reminder to.

to do those things more.

Kay (33:18)

else?

LaSaundra Gibson (33:19)

I think that's it. Thank you.

Kay (33:22)

You know, I just want to put it aside in here that many times people do get emotional when we do this exercise. It's because it's getting in touch with our inner selves. You know, that's what your inner voice was saying to you to say. And it's just like, it's emotional. It touches us. Tears are times, know, tears are God's message to us, I think, you know, just I'm always grateful for tears, no matter what kind of tears they are, because they're sending me some message of one sort or another. And it's way...

that I connect with the divine as through tears. One of the ways I connect with the divine is through tears. Good tears, sad tears, all kinds of tears. yeah, so, yeah. Do you wanna come up with a question for me? Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (34:06)

So if we were two friends doing that after

I said mine, would I ask the same question? Or I would wait and see what question wanted to be asked.

Kay (34:12)

Yes, good.

Yeah,

just come up with a question for me. You do that? Okay.

LaSaundra Gibson (34:22)

Yeah, I'll do that.

What brings you meaning?

Kay (34:31)

Okay, what brings me meaning?

Well, there's lots of things coming to mind. And I was thinking, well, what brings me meaning as being with my family and doing work that I love to do? And then I was like, well, what's underneath that? What more is there? And it's...

feeling that connected to the divine, that I'm...

I think of these absolutely gorgeous images from the Webb telescope and the new telescopes of the outer space. And I think of myself as this little teeny tiny, teeny tiny, teeny tiny speck in all of that. And you know, what is the meaning in that? And I just feel...

I'm, what a gift it is to be that speck

LaSaundra Gibson (35:29)

I thank you for sharing all of those things and for going here with me spontaneously just to see what comes up. This is so beautiful. I'm so grateful that we had this dialogue today together about listening. I hope our listeners and viewers learn something today and are inspired to be intentional about deep listening.

Kay (35:36)

Sure.

Yeah, me too.

LaSaundra Gibson (35:57)

can see what a gift it is to not only ourselves but to others.

Kay (36:01)

Yes, well I'd like to leave you with a quote. It's my favorite quote. Being listened to is so close to being loved that most people cannot tell the difference.

LaSaundra Gibson (36:13)

Thank you.

Kay (36:14)

You're welcome. Thank you.