God as Heavenly Mother, S1E6

In this enlightening conversation, LaSaundra Gibson and Juliann Bullock explore the often- overlooked motherly attributes of God, as articulated in Juliann's book, Mothers as the Image of God. They discuss the significance of recognizing God as a nurturing figure, the linguistic challenges in depicting divine femininity, and the powerful metaphors found in scripture that reflect God's maternal nature. Juliann shares personal experiences and insights on motherhood, spiritual mothering, and the importance of diverse connections with God, encouraging listeners to embrace a fuller understanding of the Divine.

Transcript

LaSaundra Gibson (00:44)
Welcome to The Being Devotionals. I'm LaSaundra Gibson, and today is a special episode where I hope to honor moms, however you identify as a mom, by looking at the motherly images of God that have sadly been ignored. But my guest today, Juliann Bullock, has powerfully drawn out the motherly attributes of God's character through her book, Mothers as the Image of God. Juliann is a mother of five children, including twin boys. She and her husband, Jacob.

live on an island and they enjoy spending time at the ocean. And Juliann is getting her Master of Divinity from Portland Seminary. She also spent time as a missionary. Thank you so much for being here, Juliann. I'm so excited to discuss this topic of Heavenly Mother with you.

Juliann (01:31)
Thanks, me too.

LaSaundra Gibson (01:34)
Well, the reason that I was inspired to have this conversation and do this episode is one, as I mentioned, I want to honor moms. But also in my time at seminary and also working as a spiritual director in that ministry, I have noticed that many women struggle to identify and relate to God as Father.

My parents divorced when I was eight. My brother and I lived with my mother and I did not experience secure attachment with either of my parents. And by that I mean in the form of consoling, comforting, nurturing, safety. ⁓ But I did grow up with strong women in my life who were independent, who had a voice. And so I grew up with a very

strong understanding of my value and worth as a woman, I never felt inferior to men. But the lack of nurturing from my mom, and even today we have a complex relationship, I never really felt the desire to know God as mother. For whatever reason, father has felt more comforting. I also don't have children and I've experienced infertility. So

Juliann (02:39)
Okay.

LaSaundra Gibson (02:49)
Despite all of those things though, my desire is to invite people into deeper connection with God. And I think it's really difficult to connect with someone that you really can't relate to. And so that's really what gave me the desire to bring this topic to this podcast because I want people

Juliann (02:59)
Yeah.

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (03:16)
especially women, to know that there is more than one way to relate to God. And so I'd like to know what led you to explore, sort of dive into God as mother.

Juliann (03:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for me it really was when I became a mom myself. I was blessed to grow up with ⁓ a father and a mother, both who really did show me.

who God is and what God's love is like. But when I had my own kids and became a mom, I started thinking through, you you want your kids to experience ⁓ a reflection of God's image through their parenting. And so I knew that they were supposed to see an image of God in my husband as their father. But when I became a mother, I started wondering, ⁓ you know, what about me? Do they experience God's image through me to the extent that they do through

husband and then really kind of logically thinking through it, okay, if God is father and not mother, or even if God is, some people would say, a little bit more fatherly than motherly, ⁓ the logical implication of that would be that fathers show us more clearly who God is than mothers do. And that was so far removed from my experience, because I knew that, you know, my mom showed me just as much as my dad.

dad did what God is like, and I also, you know, just felt in my gut that that can't be right. I know that as a mom I am meant also equally to show them who God is, what God is like. And so that really kind of catalyzed my own study and investigation. I wanted to then look into, what does scripture say? And does the Bible really emphasize God's fatherhood more than God's motherhood?

LaSaundra Gibson (04:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I think the key and what you're sharing there is that we do often say, we're made in God's image, we're made in God's image, but yet if we aren't really seeking to see the complete picture of God, if we are made in God's image, meaning we, women and men, then why are we only seeing this one side of God as Father?

Juliann (05:15)
Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (05:33)
And so

it makes sense that we would explore this. And I'm so thankful that you did. The wisdom that you share in your book is so rich. And we're going to get to some of those motherly metaphors that you talk about. But you point out how language really limits the complete image of God. also

have a linguistics degree. And I'm so thankful for that because I would love for you to give us a little bit of a linguistics lesson. Because first of all, know, God transcends gender. But you talk about the marked and unmarked, which explains why we often see God as masculine in scripture, and why it's so hard for people to wrap their brains around, you know, God as mother in this feminine imagery. And then

Juliann (05:56)
This

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (06:21)
especially because Jesus often refers to God as Father. And so, can you explain this marked and unmarked and help us better understand why we see God as Father so often?

Juliann (06:35)
Sure, yeah. as you said, God transcends gender, right? God doesn't have a gender. It's not that God is like both.

male and female. God's beyond all of that. But when we talk about God, we have to use human language. We're using human categories to describe the indescribable, And so especially with pronouns, know, he, she, we have to say something, right? And so in the original languages of the Bible, which would be Hebrew for the Old Testament, Greek for the New Testament, in both of those languages, anytime you use a pronoun, he or she, you have

LaSaundra Gibson (06:54)
next

Juliann (07:12)
pick a gender. have to say he or she. There isn't really an appropriate one for God. But there is a very common feature in languages throughout the world called markedness, basically, which means that you can have kind of a default, an unmarked, a generic category. So for example, ⁓ if you're talking about a lion, if you say lion, that could mean any kind of lion, right? It could be male, it could be female, it could be a cub, it could be an old lion. We'd say that's the unmarked

unmarked word because it can kind of be used very generically. On the other hand, if you were to say lioness,

that has to be a female lion, right? So it's marked. So you could say lion talking about a female lion. You could never say lioness if you're talking about a male lion. Pronouns in both Hebrew and Greek work the same way. So those masculine pronouns are unmarked. They're the generic form. So if you're talking about someone and you don't know if they're male or female, you would use the masculine. Also, if you're talking about kind of a mixed group,

LaSaundra Gibson (08:00)
Mm-hmm.

Juliann (08:21)
that includes both men and women use the masculine. It's unmarked, it's generic, it can be used to refer to kind of any person. On the other hand, the feminine pronouns, so she or her, those are marked in both Hebrew and Greek. Those can only be used if you're very specifically talking about someone who's definitely female. So in both languages, when you're talking about someone who transcends gender, I mean, obviously you wanna choose the unmarked one, right?

If we were to use she or her talking about God, we would be saying that God was in some way distinctly ⁓ female, feminine. Whereas to use the masculine, we're not necessarily saying that. We're not saying that God is necessarily male or masculine. We're leaving it open.

LaSaundra Gibson (09:09)
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And then what about Jesus referring to God as Father, which I think is a big hang up for people too.

Juliann (09:19)
Yeah, that is such an interesting question and I mean deeply theological because we have to remember that Jesus is both God and human, right? And the reason for that is because Jesus has a human parent, Mary, and a divine parent, God. I mean this is at the heart of the Christian faith. And so for Jesus, if God were somehow Jesus's father and mother, we would have some deep theological problems.

LaSaundra Gibson (09:49)
Yeah.

⁓

Juliann (09:49)
you know, then

Jesus would no longer be human and we're not Jesus, you know? We are not divine, we are not... God is not our Father in the way that God the Father is the Father of Jesus. So that's a very different, a very specific relationship that we don't necessarily share in. Well, not necessarily, we don't share in that relationship the way Jesus does.

LaSaundra Gibson (09:52)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And I love the story that you shared about being a missionary in Papua New Guinea. And you were with your friend who's Australian and you talked about how they often get these heavy rains, which causes these large flies and lots of them. the two of you were navigating that and she all of a sudden says, I want my mom. And how you started calling your mom.

Juliann (10:31)
Yup.

LaSaundra Gibson (10:44)
mom. you know, these names that we give our loved ones, really are those that it speaks to the intimacy we have when we do that. ⁓ And so I love that story and how it's it's like if if we are intimately related with God, which we are, then what's wrong with calling God mom or mom?

Juliann (10:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mmhmm. Definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. Yeah, we're invited into this intimate relationship as as kids are with their parents who love them dearly.

LaSaundra Gibson (11:12)
Yeah, I love that.

Yeah, I think that story really just shows again how we have ⁓ open access to God in that way because of our intimate relationship with God, where we can approach God as what feels most comforting as long as it's not in contrast to God's nature. And speaking of God's nature, these metaphors that you've drawn out in your book, I want to discuss because they are so good.

Juliann (11:28)
Yes.

Right. Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (11:49)
and I think that moms will feel so uplifted after hearing these things. You describe God as one who's, or you point out in scripture how God is described as one who has given birth as a nursing mother who breastfed. And you often refer to the passage in Deuteronomy 32, which describes God as an eagle caring for its young and that we're nourishing from the rock suckling, meaning breast.

Juliann (12:09)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

LaSaundra Gibson (12:18)
feed, also El Shaddai, that meaning the god of the breast. And then you also refer to Deuteronomy 11, where Moses says to God, why did you tell me to carry them in my arms like a mother carries a nursing baby? So there again, you have Moses sharing what God said to him, and God uses a motherly image.

Juliann (12:24)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (12:45)
So can

you just share more about the word meaning in these things that really point to the motherly images?

Juliann (12:53)
Yeah, well, as you mentioned, Deuteronomy, I think it's 32, is this beautiful...

LaSaundra Gibson (12:58)
Yeah.

Juliann (13:01)
the song of Moses, it's often called. ⁓ Moses kind of describing the history of how God has cared for the Israelites. ⁓ I went through my whole life, having probably read that multiple times, ⁓ but many translations don't really bring out the meaning of those words. It's really kind of obscured. So I was honestly surprised when I discovered how simple the meanings are. You know, there are Hebrew words where you think, you know, we're not really sure

what this means, it could be this, it could be that. That is not the case with these words. It's pretty clear. So there's a beautiful verse in that chapter where God says, you forgot the rock who gave birth to you. And that word, it really just, means to give birth. That's what it means. There's not a lot of room for interpretation there. And same with a verse a little bit further on in the chapter where God says, I breastfed you, I nursed you with

honey and oil from the rock. Same thing, it's a pretty straightforward word. It really is only used to describe that particular relationship of a breastfeeding mother. And so that surprised me, but also delighted me to see how just simply, clearly, and beautifully God says, yeah, this is what I'm like. I gave birth to you. I breastfed you. With no apology, no shame.

there, that's what God does for us. And it's very clear there in Scripture.

LaSaundra Gibson (14:30)
Yeah.

And I love the story you shared about one of your daughters and how she practically lived on your breast. ⁓ And it's a reminder of how we also need that continual nourishment. It wasn't fun for you as a mom always, right?

Juliann (14:42)
Mm-hmm.

Not always. Nope.

LaSaundra Gibson (14:56)
But it is a picture, an image of how we are always God's babies and how we need that continual nourishment ⁓ spiritually for our souls or we will die just like a baby will die without that nourishment. I used to for years, ⁓ I had memorized Psalm 91 and a lot of people know that passage as the protection passage.

I had memorized it and for years I would quote it over myself and over my loved ones every day. as I was reading your book, I was reminded and I just imagined myself, Psalm 91, he who dwells in the secret place of the most high shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. And it talks about the wings that cover and the feathers.

Juliann (15:32)
Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (15:51)
It really just, I just went back to that and imagined myself just on God's motherly breast and being covered by heavenly mother's wings. And I thought, wow, the protection. mean, you cannot out protect a mom who has kids. mean, mothers are protective. So even just thinking about those huge wings and being nestled in and

Juliann (16:00)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

No. No way.

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (16:21)
Protected. ⁓ such a beautiful image.

Juliann (16:23)
Hmm.

⁓ it is. Yeah, that's beautiful.

LaSaundra Gibson (16:28)
Yeah. You said there is only one context in which a person is nourished by the flesh and the blood of another human, motherhood. There it is again, God uses these motherly metaphors. And especially as we look at things spiritually where scripture talks about spiritual life being born again and Jesus being the living bread, eating, ⁓

Juliann (16:39)
Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (16:57)
my flesh, drink my blood as Jesus says in John 6 51, and you'll live forever. Jesus sacrificing his life. Those are, again, I think images that I'd never considered before as I think about when I take communion at church every week and taking in the blood and the body of Jesus and how much I need that as nourishment for just the emotional weariness.

Juliann (17:05)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (17:26)
the physical weariness that I feel and how every week I just take that in. ⁓ I love how you really point to that as there is truly no other context that we can relate that to.

Juliann (17:26)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (17:46)
Can we go to the beginning, our first Mother Eve, where you really give us a powerful lesson on the word, Ezzer, and you talk about women being God's agents on earth. Can you share more about that and how Mother Eve really can help us relate to Heavenly Mother?

Juliann (18:09)
Yeah, absolutely. So most people are pretty familiar with, you know, the creation narrative. There's Adam. He's good. ⁓ But God says it's not good for the man to be alone. I will make him a helper. And in English, you know, that word helper, we usually use that to mean kind of an assistant. And so I think for women, when we think of ourselves as helpers, we kind of have this image of like the sidekick, right? You're just kind of there along for the

ride to, you know, maybe sweep the floors as Adam's doing his thing. But the Hebrew word used there is, as you said, Ezzer. And if you look at the way that word is used throughout the Old Testament, it's actually normally used to talk about God. And in the context, almost always, of God's strong, powerful, saving help and rescue. So for God to say, I'm going to make

LaSaundra Gibson (18:43)
Yeah.

Juliann (19:09)
this man an ezer, what God's really saying is I'm going to give him a companion who is strong, capable, able to really come alongside him, even to rescue and save and provide ⁓ powerful help, which is a really ⁓ just beautiful thing to be called as a woman.

LaSaundra Gibson (19:32)
Yeah. And then as it relates to that power and the enmity between Satan and woman, can you talk more about that? why there is that enmity and probably why we see so much oppression in our culture against women?

Juliann (19:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so then after the fall, Adam and Eve have sinned and you know, God says to the serpent, okay, this is what you've done wrong. So here's what's going to happen to you. And God says to the serpent, you're going to, you know, crawl on your belly and eat dust. And then God says, and I will put enmity between you and the woman. And it's easy to see that as kind of part of perhaps Eve's consequence. But if you look carefully, it is not. This is part of the judgment.

on the serpent, on the enemy, on ⁓ Having the woman as his enemy. And if you think through the ramifications of that, God is basically saying from now on, you are gonna have to deal with her as your enemy. She's not gonna be on your side and that is not good for you because she is an ezer. She is a strong, powerful ally and you don't want her as an enemy, but that's exactly what will

LaSaundra Gibson (20:42)
Yeah.

Juliann (20:55)
the case for you. And so, you know, we are told that the serpent, Satan, is crafty and cunning, is very wise. And if you're smart ⁓ and you have a strong, powerful enemy, that's who you're going to go after. You're going to go after the enemy that you are afraid of, that you know can really do you damage. And so I do wonder, is that part of why we have seen, you know, throughout all of history in cultures that are wildly different

There's a very consistent theme, unfortunately, of oppression of women, marginalization of women, abuse of women. You know, I think that Satan takes us seriously and has gone after women throughout all of history.

LaSaundra Gibson (21:42)
Yeah. And oftentimes you hear about all this youth's fault that the woman has to have painful labor. ⁓ you know, but actually it is one of those sacrificial things that you go through as a woman. And while it's not fun and pretty, like I'm talking as if I know, I do not know, but I have heard.

Juliann (21:48)
Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (22:04)
But you can see the power and the beauty and just the power of a woman to be able to do that and the strength that is in that, that you cannot ignore.

Juliann (22:20)
Yeah.

Absolutely, and especially because Ezzur, Helper, is so often used kind of in a military context of, you know, saving in a powerful way. You know, you think about it in terms of the military. We have men and women who really do sacrifice themselves. They go through training that hurts. That's not fun. ⁓ And they do that so that they can be strong and able and ready to defend and protect us. And I think that's part of

what Eve is being invited into and us as her daughters, ⁓ just for me personally, I know my experiences of pregnancy, labor, childbirth, mothering, it has been so hard but the hardest parts have allowed me to grow and ⁓ become strengthened in ways I never could have otherwise. And I do just want to clarify along with that, I do not believe that women should or need

to experience painful childbirths.

We all have a different story. God has so many different ways of strengthening and preparing us for the tasks that God has for us. so, yeah, there is nothing wrong with that epidural, with pain medicine. know, God has thankfully given us ways to mitigate the effects of sin. So I'm absolutely not saying that you should have as painful of a childbirth as possible under no circumstances. But, you know, unfortunately, sometimes

it's unavoidable. Sometimes it is just a part of our experience and our story and it's not wasted. God uses that, thankfully, to do good and strengthening things.

LaSaundra Gibson (24:05)
Yeah, and even if you don't have, ⁓ you know, a natural childbirth or whatever, just even the parenting part, it's all sacrifice. It's all very hard. And like you said, I think there's so much to be learned and understood and grown in a person who is sacrificing in that way. And it's yet another deep connection to God and the motherly image of God.

Juliann (24:13)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (24:32)
So

one of the things I love that you, I had never noticed this before. I didn't notice a lot of things in scripture that you pointed out, Juliann. So God has really given you such great wisdom and revelation about these things. The story that you share about God making clothes for Adam and Eve, and I know I've read that, but just never saw it the way that you shared it in that.

You know, they felt so much shame that they made their own clothes and probably looked hideous. And you sort of, sort of referenced how when your kids, you know, and I've seen, I've seen parents with kids and it's like freezing outside and the kids got on like shorts and a tank top and a cape and you're like, who dressed you? Well, you know, right. There's just no concept of season and

Juliann (25:05)
Probably.

huh. huh.

I'm ready!

LaSaundra Gibson (25:28)
Even after, you know, in their shame, they dress themselves, God lovingly comes over and says, let me dress you and makes clothes for them. And that is such, I mean, that is a motherly thing. even after your kids, know, are dressing themselves and wanting to do this, you still come alongside and say, let me dress you because I know what you need. I know the care and protection that you need before you leave the house and go out the door.

Man, that is just so beautiful. I love that. It's wonderful. ⁓ I just want to hear it again because I might have missed it because it was just so deep. But the Ezzer that you were referring to, you said that's often a word that is used to describe God.

Juliann (26:03)
Yeah.

Yes, usually most of the time in the Old Testament when it's used, it's talking about God.

LaSaundra Gibson (26:29)
And it's this really protective warrior, right?

Juliann (26:38)
Yeah, it's often people saying, help, God, save us. We're surrounded by enemies. Come be our Ezzer. ⁓ We have no one else to turn to. We need an Ezzer. God, please come save us. That's often the kind of context in which it's used.

LaSaundra Gibson (26:54)
Wow. And to know that women are helpers, not in the sense of sweeping the floors, like you said, but strong, powerful warriors. That's amazing. I love the quote you share in your book. This is you saying this, whatever battle you're in, whatever oppression you're facing, take courage. Satan fears you greatly. You are our enemy's dreaded foe.

Juliann (27:21)
Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (27:22)
That's a word for women out there. I also love that you point out one of the first few recorded conversations between God and a regular person. And for those who don't know, in the Old Testament, you know, the people who spoke to God were normally prophets and priests. Regular people didn't have that access, but thankfully through Jesus, we all have access to God now. We can come boldly to God on our own.

Juliann (27:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (27:52)
And this conversation that was recorded was between God and Rebekah who had twins, Esau and Jacob, you may have heard of them before. ⁓ And the conversation was about her childbirth. She's like, what's going on with these twins? And again, these twins are acting a fool in my belly. What is going on, God? And you know, I mean,

When you find this, mean, what's going on inside of you when you discover this stuff and you see yet again, this is a conversation about childbirth. I mean, all these motherly images are just throughout scripture and send us back and point us back to God.

Juliann (28:37)
Yeah, well as a mom of twins, it's just so incredibly...

sweet to me that again one of the very few recorded conversations between God and any human being especially between you know a regular person who's not a prophet or a priest is about the babies in her belly that God takes the time to have that conversation with her and that it gets recorded and I think you know we're so used to ultrasounds and you know we can know the gender of our babies I found out at 10 weeks that I was having twins and so I

had those seven months to kind of mentally, physically prepare myself for that. Can you imagine, you know, in Rebekah's day, you don't get that. I mean, maybe you look a little bit bigger, maybe you don't, but you find out you're having twins on the day that you have your baby and lo and behold, there's another one still in there. And so even for God to let her know ahead of time, hey, by the way, you're having two, that's, that's a huge gift just to her as a mom. And so I,

LaSaundra Gibson (29:31)
Thank

Juliann (29:43)
love that God does that. ⁓ But it's also really significant the content of this conversation that God says to her, here's what's gonna happen in your family and the younger or the older will actually serve the younger. In their culture that should have been said to the father. That kind of, here's how you know spiritually here's how your family's gonna go. ⁓

in any Old Testament, you patriarchal situation, anybody else would have said that to Isaac, not to Rebekah. And so the fact that God says it to Rebekah really bestows on her then this kind of spiritual authority and even leadership in her family. Because God didn't have that conversation with Isaac. He had it with Rebekah.

LaSaundra Gibson (30:36)
Yeah. Wow. I love that. I again had never really thought about that being one of the first conversations between God and a person. And it's a whole conversation about childbirth and you know, which is really cool. ⁓ And can you see, I mean, can you see guys talking about childbirth? No, women are going to be sitting around talking about childbirth. And so it just shows that God has

Juliann (30:50)
Exactly!

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (31:04)
an understanding of course because God created it. you know, just again, again and again, it just points to God as mother.

Juliann (31:15)
Yeah. And even that Rebekah asked God about that. Like, that's not something you go to your dad to ask about, like, hey, what's going on with my babies. Like, that's something you ask your mom. And Rebekah initiated that and asked God. And I love that relationship with God.

LaSaundra Gibson (31:23)
Yeah.

reality.

That's so beautiful. I'm trying to find the passage so I can read it It's Isaiah 54, one through three. There it is. Seeing, O childless woman, you who have never given birth, enlarge your house, build an addition, spread out your home, and spare no expense, for you will soon be bursting at the seams.

Your descendants will occupy their nations and resettle the ruined cities. Over the years, because of my experience with infertility, I've had several people send me this scripture. And when I read this in your book, it had new meaning for me. And I'm thankful that it did because I don't know if I'll be able to ever have children of my own. I'm reaching 45.

Juliann (32:14)
Hmm.

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (32:25)
divorced. I don't know if that's what God has for me. But I read this differently when you shared it.

For the women who like myself don't have children, who may have complicated relationships with their mother, who may be struggling to connect with Heavenly Mother, what do you say to the women who speak to the spiritual mother aspect? Because when I read that

Juliann (32:41)
Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (32:58)
scripture again in the context of everything that you shared. It gave me more meaningful hope of that expansion may not be physical, but I know the work that I'm doing in people's lives and how I'm nurturing their souls. had one spiritual director, she's precious. She said, she's a nurse. She said, I am a nurse of the physical body, but you are a nurse of the soul, LaSaundra.

Juliann (33:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (33:28)
And she has no idea how much that meant to me. ⁓ So can you speak to that aspect for, we've shared a lot of the metaphors and some of us really just can't relate to those things, but why is it still important for us to be able to have the heavenly mother image?

Juliann (33:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. That's such a great question. And I think, you know, we talk a lot about the pregnancy, childbirth labor. ⁓

but it's really only this very tiny slice of motherhood. know, that whole thing takes less than a year out of the, you know, decades of mothering that we're gonna do with our kids. And so it's really, it's this very tiny piece of the picture. ⁓ And especially now as my kids are getting older, I have a couple, you know, in middle school and I'm discovering my mothering is not enough for them. ⁓

need other women mothering them spiritually, emotionally, relationally, socially. They need that. And I'm so thankful, you know, they have. are some amazing ladies in our church who pour themselves out for the middle school girls and are really doing some genuine mothering of my daughters. And as a mom, as a biological

I just I want to say thank you to all of you women who are spiritually mothering children who you didn't give birth to. They need that. Our kids need more than one.

woman, showing them who God is like. And as you mother spiritually, you truly are reflecting the image of God. You really are showing people a little bit of what God is like, how God loves them. You know, we can't see God, we can't touch God, we can't hear God with our ears. We experience that through the body of Christ, through other people. And so... ⁓

you know, God's motherly nature, people are going to experience it through you as women loving on them.

LaSaundra Gibson (35:46)
Yeah, thank you so much. That's beautifully said. And I do hope that this doesn't make anyone feel isolated. These things that we've talked about, the childbirth thing, the breastfeeding, are not to isolate, but just to, again, point to the image of God as a heavenly mother. And it's okay if you want to continue to...

refer to God as Father, I do see now even in myself as I started this conversation, I was very transparent in saying that's not something I really desire, but this has really helped me connect with God in another way. And I think that's the important thing, right, is that we are connecting with God and

As you even mentioned about there, sometimes during different seasons of life, and I've experienced this, we connect with God in different ways. We need different ways of connecting. And so I think it just enriches the relationship we have with God and we can relate to God in all the different aspects and attributes of God's character.

Juliann (36:58)
Yeah, for sure.

LaSaundra Gibson (37:01)
Is there anything else that I didn't share, didn't bring up because there's so much in your book. I had to sort of narrow it down to this short conversation, but is there anything else that's on your heart to share on this topic?

Juliann (37:17)
Yeah, I guess maybe I do just want to say again, like you just mentioned, you know, for the women who have not physically given birth to a child ⁓ and, you know, maybe never will, maybe never want to, ⁓ especially in the context of, you know, how we were talking about how the pain of childbirth, like it can be something that strengthens and prepares you. I really want to make sure that I say clearly that ⁓ that is in...

in no way a better way to be prepared than the many other ways that God has for you. know, for women who have not and really, you know, don't want to give birth. You are not missing out on God's plan for your life. You're not, you know, missing out on this training aspect that you can't get any other way. That's not how it works. There's so many different paths and journeys and ⁓

ways of mothering and being mothered.

LaSaundra Gibson (38:19)
Well, Mothers as the Image of God is Juliann's book I highly recommend it. It's just packed with so much wisdom and there's, you know, for those of you who are scripture and word people, you're not going to be able to argue with this one because this woman

Juliann (38:36)
You

LaSaundra Gibson (38:38)
This

woman has got all the scripture in this book ⁓ and has been able to ⁓ clearly show yourself approved in really doing the work of studying God's Word and applying God's Word to these truths that you speak. so I'm just so thankful for this book that you've written and I hope that it really ministers, I believe it will, to

women and men. ⁓ So pick up a copy, mothers as the image of God. Thank you so much, Juliann, for being here and sharing your wisdom. I really enjoyed this discussion. You've opened my heart to see God in such a beautiful way as Heavenly Mother, and I'm so thankful for that.

Juliann (39:27)
Thank you. It's been great to be here.